Why are Jeff Elliot's guitars worth so much money?

Has anyone played on of his guitars? Is it just good marketing?

David

Larry Deack

2007-02-03 16:51:32 UTC

Post by Dicerous
Has anyone played on of his guitars? Is it just good marketing?

Lame troll.

Dicerous

2007-02-03 17:01:20 UTC

Post by Dicerous
Has anyone played on of his guitars? Is it just good marketing?

Lame troll.

Larry,

I'm going to have to ignore you now. It was an honest question. I
want to be rich like Jeff.

David

Larry Deack

2007-02-03 17:09:51 UTC

Post by Dicerous
I'm going to have to ignore you now.

Oh goody! The fast food I was feeding you is now backing up.

Would you care for a wahffer-theen meent, Mr. Creosote?

Tashi

2007-02-03 17:48:10 UTC

Post by Dicerous
Has anyone played on of his guitars? Is it just good marketing?

Yes I've often wondered the same thing! Since your talking of Jeff
Elliot, you might want to include Andrea Tacchi. I think there going
for $20,000 from that dealer in Ohio.
MT

Post by Larry Deack
Lame troll.

Larry quit making an ass of yourself !!! Your the worst fucking
troll on this NG.
MT

Larry Deack

2007-02-03 17:56:23 UTC

Post by Tashi
Larry quit making an ass of yourself !!!

Lead the way! I'll follow you.

Post by Tashi
Your the worst fucking troll on this NG.

Thank you! Same back at you, Trashy Dude. What a guy!

Tashi

2007-02-03 18:06:31 UTC

Post by Tashi
Larry quit making an ass of yourself !!!

Lead the way! I'll follow you.

Post by Tashi
Your the worst fucking troll on this NG.

Thank you! Same back at you, Trashy Dude. What a guy!

Please, for once, say something intelligent, and quit polluting the
NG with your "smoke inspired mindless comments. If you don't like
trolls as you call them, let other deal with it, your the only pothead
on this NG who comes out when a Troll appears. Please light up a big
one, take a good long hit, and for the next few hours watch a bug
crawl across the floor..........that would be more beneficial, than
what you contribute here.
MT

Larry Deack

2007-02-03 18:25:51 UTC

Please light up a big one, take a good long hit,
and for the next few hours watch a bug crawl across
the floor..........that would be more beneficial, than
what you contribute here.

What's with your obsession with pot?

Hey, Trashy Dude, I love you too man!

Try using your killfile option.

Tashi

2007-02-03 21:37:27 UTC

Please light up a big one, take a good long hit,
and for the next few hours watch a bug crawl across
the floor..........that would be more beneficial, than
what you contribute here.

What's with your obsession with pot?
Hey, Trashy Dude, I love you too man!
Try using your killfile option.

Fuck the kill file ! You show up on every single post, trying to
derail any meaningful conversation. Why don't you stay off other
peoples threads when you have nothing meaningful to add to them, or
start your own thread and see how many people actually give a ***@t
about what you have to say.

Your a meance to this RMGC !!!
MT

John Rimmer

2007-02-03 21:39:12 UTC

Please light up a big one, take a good long hit,
and for the next few hours watch a bug crawl across
the floor..........that would be more beneficial, than
what you contribute here.

What's with your obsession with pot?
Hey, Trashy Dude, I love you too man!
Try using your killfile option.

Fuck the kill file ! You show up on every single post, trying to
derail any meaningful conversation. Why don't you stay off other
peoples threads when you have nothing meaningful to add to them, or
about what you have to say.
Your a meance to this RMGC !!!
MT

He was here first. I've seen your "meaningful" conversations and you are a
true laugh! Nice guitars, though. Focus on them.

John

Tashi

2007-02-03 22:05:48 UTC

Please light up a big one, take a good long hit,
and for the next few hours watch a bug crawl across
the floor..........that would be more beneficial, than
what you contribute here.

What's with your obsession with pot?
Hey, Trashy Dude, I love you too man!
Try using your killfile option.

Fuck the kill file ! You show up on every single post, trying to
derail any meaningful conversation. Why don't you stay off other
peoples threads when you have nothing meaningful to add to them, or
about what you have to say.
Your a meance to this RMGC !!!
MT

He was here first. I've seen your "meaningful" conversations and you are a
true laugh! Nice guitars, though. Focus on them.
John- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Kindergarten mentality Uh John? Your another one who has very
little to say, unless your busy criticizing others for not staying On
Topic. Please go back to non-entity-ville but PLEASE keep us posted
on what Mel bay has on sale.

Thanks John, your a doll !!!
MT

John Rimmer

2007-02-03 22:33:28 UTC

Please light up a big one, take a good long hit,
and for the next few hours watch a bug crawl across
the floor..........that would be more beneficial, than
what you contribute here.

What's with your obsession with pot?
Hey, Trashy Dude, I love you too man!
Try using your killfile option.

Fuck the kill file ! You show up on every single post, trying to
derail any meaningful conversation. Why don't you stay off other
peoples threads when you have nothing meaningful to add to them, or
about what you have to say.
Your a meance to this RMGC !!!
MT

He was here first. I've seen your "meaningful" conversations and you are a
true laugh! Nice guitars, though. Focus on them.
John- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I think non-entity-ville is where you lived...aren't you trying to escape to
Italy? Or were you rejected...?

John

Tashi

2007-02-03 23:22:08 UTC

Please light up a big one, take a good long hit,
and for the next few hours watch a bug crawl across
the floor..........that would be more beneficial, than
what you contribute here.

What's with your obsession with pot?
Hey, Trashy Dude, I love you too man!
Try using your killfile option.

Fuck the kill file ! You show up on every single post, trying to
derail any meaningful conversation. Why don't you stay off other
peoples threads when you have nothing meaningful to add to them, or
about what you have to say.
Your a meance to this RMGC !!!
MT

He was here first. I've seen your "meaningful" conversations and you are a
true laugh! Nice guitars, though. Focus on them.
John- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I think non-entity-ville is where you lived...aren't you trying to escape to
Italy? Or were you rejected...?
John-

Your refference to the words escape, and rejection, remind me of
the old dictum.... " In the house of a hanged man, one never mentions
the word rope".
MT

Hide quoted text -

Post by John Rimmer
- Show quoted text -

John Rimmer

2007-02-03 23:34:21 UTC

Please light up a big one, take a good long hit,
and for the next few hours watch a bug crawl across
the floor..........that would be more beneficial, than
what you contribute here.

What's with your obsession with pot?
Hey, Trashy Dude, I love you too man!
Try using your killfile option.

Fuck the kill file ! You show up on every single post, trying to
derail any meaningful conversation. Why don't you stay off other
peoples threads when you have nothing meaningful to add to them, or
about what you have to say.
Your a meance to this RMGC !!!
MT

He was here first. I've seen your "meaningful" conversations and you
are
a
true laugh! Nice guitars, though. Focus on them.
John- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I think non-entity-ville is where you lived...aren't you trying to escape to
Italy? Or were you rejected...?
John-

Your refference to the words escape, and rejection, remind me of
the old dictum.... " In the house of a hanged man, one never mentions
the word rope".
MT

Not an answer....but what else is new. Psst, Michael -- stay out of
Switzerland!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070203/ap_on_re_eu/switzerland_assisted_suicide_1

John

Tashi

2007-02-04 07:06:49 UTC

Please light up a big one, take a good long hit,
and for the next few hours watch a bug crawl across
the floor..........that would be more beneficial, than
what you contribute here.

What's with your obsession with pot?
Hey, Trashy Dude, I love you too man!
Try using your killfile option.

Fuck the kill file ! You show up on every single post, trying to
derail any meaningful conversation. Why don't you stay off other
peoples threads when you have nothing meaningful to add to them, or
about what you have to say.
Your a meance to this RMGC !!!
MT

He was here first. I've seen your "meaningful" conversations and you
are
a
true laugh! Nice guitars, though. Focus on them.
John- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I think non-entity-ville is where you lived...aren't you trying to escape to
Italy? Or were you rejected...?
John-

Your refference to the words escape, and rejection, remind me of
the old dictum.... " In the house of a hanged man, one never mentions
the word rope".
MT

Not an answer....but what else is new. Psst, Michael -- stay out of
Switzerland!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070203/ap_on_re_eu/switzerland_assisted_...
John-

I remember seeing a show on the holocaust. One German who was in
charge of a gas chamber, who's job it was to kill people all day long,
was not having a satisfying sex life, because his wife found out what
he did for living...... BTW, John, how's your wife these days? Is she
happy?
MT

Hide quoted text -

Post by John Rimmer
- Show quoted text -

Larry Deack

2007-02-03 23:11:00 UTC

Post by Tashi
Fuck the kill file ! You show up on every single post, trying to
derail any meaningful conversation. Why don't you stay off other
peoples threads when you have nothing meaningful to add to them, or
about what you have to say.
Your a meance to this RMGC !!!

Sounds like trashy dude might have a few sock puppets in this game.

You should calm down dude. You are showing your cards. If you want to
troll as another name you should be more subtle. I'm troll bait and you
at taking it hook line and stinker.

Tashi

2007-02-04 06:18:14 UTC

Sounds like trashy dude might have a few sock puppets in this game.

Your smoking way too much weed. You know, they say it makes you a
little Paranoid, and you might start thinking I'm someone else. I'll
give you a hint, I think I know him very well.
MT

Post by Larry Deack
You should calm down dude. You are showing your cards. If you want to
troll as another name you should be more subtle. I'm troll bait and you
at taking it hook line and stinker.

Yea Larry, your so cleaver, you have everyone just where you want
them. You goof !!!
MT

wollybird

2007-02-03 23:06:02 UTC

Post by Dicerous
Has anyone played on of his guitars? Is it just good marketing?
David

Why would you ask a question with such an obvious anwser?

Dicerous

2007-02-04 00:16:41 UTC

Post by wollybird

Post by Dicerous
Has anyone played on of his guitars? Is it just good marketing?
David

Why would you ask a question with such an obvious anwser?

It was an honest question, what's your answer?

David

wollybird

2007-02-04 00:55:28 UTC

Post by wollybird

Post by Dicerous
Has anyone played on of his guitars? Is it just good marketing?
David

Why would you ask a question with such an obvious anwser?

It was an honest question, what's your answer?
David

Did't you say you took few economics courses?

Dicerous

2007-02-04 01:08:06 UTC

Post by Dicerous
Has anyone played on of his guitars? Is it just good marketing?
David

Why would you ask a question with such an obvious anwser?

It was an honest question, what's your answer?
David

Did't you say you took few economics courses?

Why are you so cynical wollybird?

David

Andrew Schulman

2007-02-04 01:24:49 UTC

Post by Dicerous
Has anyone played on of his guitars? Is it just good marketing?

Yes. No.

Andrew

Dicerous

2007-02-04 01:55:00 UTC

Post by Andrew Schulman
Yes. No.
Andrew

Andrew,

I played one of Jeff's 8-strings when he *required* that I audition
for him (before he would build one for me.) At $3500 (at the time) it
would have been a good investment. But I didn't find it in the
league of my Velazquez or Ramirez. It sounded, and looked like all
the other luthier-made instruments out there. Jeff is a wonderful
person though, I'm not trying to diss him. He's just a little too
mercenary for my tastes.

Aloha!

David

Andrew Schulman

2007-02-04 05:10:24 UTC

Post by Dicerous
I played one of Jeff's 8-strings when he *required* that I audition
for him (before he would build one for me.) At $3500 (at the time) it
would have been a good investment. But I didn't find it in the
league of my Velazquez or Ramirez. It sounded, and looked like all
the other luthier-made instruments out there. Jeff is a wonderful
person though, I'm not trying to diss him. He's just a little too
mercenary for my tastes.

What year was the guitar? Was it a Cedar top?

Andrew

Dicerous

2007-02-04 05:35:12 UTC

Post by Dicerous
for him (before he would build one for me.) At $3500 (at the time) it
would have been a good investment. But I didn't find it in the
league of my Velazquez or Ramirez. It sounded, and looked like all
the other luthier-made instruments out there. Jeff is a wonderful
person though, I'm not trying to diss him. He's just a little too
mercenary for my tastes.

What year was the guitar? Was it a Cedar top?
Andrew

It was *hot off the press* c. 1994. And it had a cedar top.

David

Andrew Schulman

2007-02-04 16:26:48 UTC

Post by Dicerous
It was *hot off the press* c. 1994. And it had a cedar top.

One more question, did it have a cutaway?

Andrew

Dicerous

2007-02-04 18:03:09 UTC

Post by Andrew Schulman
One more question, did it have a cutaway?
Andrew

no.

Andrew Schulman

2007-02-04 19:57:01 UTC

Post by Andrew Schulman
One more question, did it have a cutaway?
Andrew

no.

OK, that was my guitar. It was made in 1984, I recorded my Baroque CD
for Centaur on it in 1988. I liked it a lot except the 8th string 'A'
was not quite as strong as the other basses and the 1st string was
great up to the 14th fret, then weak after that. In 1992 I sold it to
one of my students. A year later he decided to pursue a career
outside of music and sold it back to Elliott. I had played it hard
and it needed a lot of work including a re-finish. That was all done
and Jeff was also able to improve the 1st and 8th strings. When you
saw it in 1994 the re-working had probably just been finished.

However, J. Elliott's notable success really comes from changes he
made in his bracing from 1995 on, see:

http://www.elliottguitars.com/gallery.htm#

click on Standard Concert Classic Model and then on Open Harmonic Bar.

The guitars from this period on have been exceptional.

Now, as to your questions, first, why are they worth so much money?
Because that is the price he sets and he has had no trouble selling
them, people that try them agree with the assessment that they are
exceptional. His broker, Armin Kelly/Guitars International pre-sells
them, in other words, by the time he gets a new one it's already sold.

As far as marketing, Elliott does very, very little, in part this is
why he is not a well known name. He is scrupulously honest and a very
decent person. I'm not sure why you label him mercenary.

I have a long standing order with him for another guitar, but after
1992 I wanted to try different builders, and that has been quite a
journey. In the past 3 years Darren Hippner has built me 9 guitars, 3
of which I am keeping, and they are wonderful. So, I have an
agreement with my wife that I don't get the guitar from Jeff unless I
can just write a check for it. It will be in the $20,000 range, so
there are several reasons I hope I can get that guitar!

Andrew

alcarruth

2007-02-05 03:21:46 UTC

Too bad about the low S/N ratio around here.....

The best sounding guitar I ever heard was an Elliot; at the GAL
convention in '95, iirc. He knew it was a good one; he'd borrowed it
back from the owner to show us. Even he doesn't hit that high all the
time, but he's good.

As for the price, simple: he gets it because people are willing to pay
it. You'll have to ask them why.

Alan Carruth / Luthier

Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-05 03:32:13 UTC

Post by alcarruth
Too bad about the low S/N ratio around here.....
The best sounding guitar I ever heard was an Elliot; at the GAL
convention in '95, iirc. He knew it was a good one; he'd borrowed it
back from the owner to show us. Even he doesn't hit that high all the
time, but he's good.
As for the price, simple: he gets it because people are willing to pay
it. You'll have to ask them why.
Alan Carruth / Luthier

No slam on Elliot here. Sometimes high prices create their own
mystique (as can a fortunate endorsement).
I'm always nervous about raising my fees. But when I think about it, I
don't ever remember getting less busy after doing it.

Steve

Dicerous

2007-02-05 03:43:23 UTC

I think I'll stick with Velazquez and Contrerras, what I grew up on.
It's great that Jeff is doing so well. Even with your great
explanation, I still don' t understand it. I've heard Alvarez-Yairis
(without the mystique) that do the job just as well. Thanks for your
kind thoughts though.

David

Ed Chait

2007-02-05 07:06:04 UTC

No slam on Elliot here. Sometimes high prices create their own mystique
(as can a fortunate endorsement).
I'm always nervous about raising my fees. But when I think about it, I
don't ever remember getting less busy after doing it.
Steve

Long ago and far away I worked as dental lab technician in Beverly Hills,
among other places.

The dentists in Beverly Hills charged outrageous fees and generally speaking
produced the absolute worst work I had ever seen.

They were excellent salesmen, however.

This probably has no bearing whatsoever on Jeff Elliot and his guitars, but
it was something I have never forgotten.

ed

Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-05 14:01:30 UTC

No slam on Elliot here. Sometimes high prices create their own mystique
(as can a fortunate endorsement).
I'm always nervous about raising my fees. But when I think about it, I
don't ever remember getting less busy after doing it.
Steve

Long ago and far away I worked as dental lab technician in Beverly Hills,
among other places.
The dentists in Beverly Hills charged outrageous fees and generally speaking
produced the absolute worst work I had ever seen.
They were excellent salesmen, however.
This probably has no bearing whatsoever on Jeff Elliot and his guitars, but
it was something I have never forgotten.
ed

One can be an excellent salesman and an excellent luthier as well.
I've commented before about Sam Zygmuntowicz, a local violin maker who
was lucky enough to get an endorsement from Isaac Stern. His advocates
like to say that perhaps in 250 years a Zygmuntowicz will be looked upon
as Stradivari and Guarneri are today. Maybe.
The folks I know who know fiddles say Sam indeed makes excellent
instruments; so do others, who unfortunately have neither the cojones
nor Isaac Stern to sing their praises.

Steve

Tashi

2007-02-05 14:44:43 UTC

No slam on Elliot here. Sometimes high prices create their own mystique
(as can a fortunate endorsement).
I'm always nervous about raising my fees. But when I think about it, I
don't ever remember getting less busy after doing it.
Steve

Long ago and far away I worked as dental lab technician in Beverly Hills,
among other places.
The dentists in Beverly Hills charged outrageous fees and generally speaking
produced the absolute worst work I had ever seen.
They were excellent salesmen, however.
This probably has no bearing whatsoever on Jeff Elliot and his guitars, but
it was something I have never forgotten.
ed

I can't help to wonder how Hauser would have done, if it weren't
for Segovia. Hauser definitely had talent, but much better
instruments have been made today. Besides knowing Segovia, Hauser
witnessed the birth of the modern guitar, and was part of that.
Otherwise, they seemed like any other rather generic guitar from the
time.

I think Hauser in no small way, benefited from Segovia's attempt to
internationalize the Classical Guitar. These days there are literally
hundreds of makers as good if not way better than Hauser.
MT

Post by Steven Bornfeld
Steve- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-05 16:59:42 UTC

Post by Tashi
I can't help to wonder how Hauser would have done, if it weren't
for Segovia. Hauser definitely had talent, but much better
instruments have been made today. Besides knowing Segovia, Hauser
witnessed the birth of the modern guitar, and was part of that.
Otherwise, they seemed like any other rather generic guitar from the
time.
I think Hauser in no small way, benefited from Segovia's attempt to
internationalize the Classical Guitar. These days there are literally
hundreds of makers as good if not way better than Hauser.
MT

I can only try to imagine what an endorsement form a Segovia might have
meant 50-75 years ago, when he was THE man. Stern was only one of many.
I don't even know if Heifetz could have done for a modern violinmaker.
Of course, he probably played 18th century instruments (as I'm sure
Stern did as well).

Steve

Post by Steven Bornfeld
Steve- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

rcspross

2007-02-07 05:23:14 UTC

And Steve,

They had no need to be amplified, which has become the norm here in the U.S.A.
for any number of convinience and commercial reasons. Therefore the audience
gets to hear real violins. What a guitar audience gets to hear is a broadcast.
Most people seem to not mind, since we have become so accustomed to audio
replication. Few people save the players and their small circle get to hear a real

guitar played naturally without amplification.

Richard Spross

Post by Steven Bornfeld
Steve- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

elmcmeen

2007-02-05 11:25:30 UTC

Post by Steven Bornfeld
I'm always nervous about raising my fees. But when I think about it, I
don't ever remember getting less busy after doing it.
Steve

Just don't run out of novacaine...

EM

Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-05 14:02:03 UTC

Post by elmcmeen

Post by Steven Bornfeld
I'm always nervous about raising my fees. But when I think about it, I
don't ever remember getting less busy after doing it.
Steve

Just don't run out of novacaine...
EM

That would be in the "rookie mistake" category.

Steve

Andrew Schulman

2007-02-05 03:38:32 UTC

Post by alcarruth
The best sounding guitar I ever heard was an Elliot; at the GAL
convention in '95, iirc. He knew it was a good one; he'd borrowed it
back from the owner to show us. Even he doesn't hit that high all the
time, but he's good.

I've heard this from several people that were there.

Post by alcarruth
As for the price, simple: he gets it because people are willing to pay
it. You'll have to ask them why.

How much do the best newly made violins, 'cellos, pianos, etc. cost?
Jeff has told me that is part of how he prices his guitars.

Andrew

Benoît Meulle-Stef

2007-02-05 18:03:47 UTC

A good new violin is, here anyway about 25000 (and I'm not talking about
very famous makers). Here a friend who is quite unknown sales violas for
7000 euros and he have a 2 years waiting list... A pedal harp came go for
100.000 eazely. A cello 50.000. The guitars are amazingly cheap... 10000 to
15000 and you have the choice between some of the best makers... But
remember guitars are not "real" instruments :-) just the violin family and
the pianos are...
Cheers
Ben

Andrew Schulman

2007-02-05 19:15:38 UTC

On Feb 5, 1:03 pm, "Benoît Meulle-Stef"

Post by BenoÃ®t Meulle-Stef
A good new violin is, here anyway about 25000 (and I'm not talking about
very famous makers). Here a friend who is quite unknown sales violas for
7000 euros and he have a 2 years waiting list... A pedal harp came go for
100.000 eazely. A cello 50.000. The guitars are amazingly cheap... 10000 to
15000 and you have the choice between some of the best makers.

All of which is to say the Elliott's prices are not out of line. The
question then is are there people willing to pay that much? Yes, for
an Elliott, a Smallman, Frederich, and some others. At the same time
there are many guitars available of similar quality for much less.

Let the buyer beware!

Andrew

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-05 20:53:39 UTC

Can't help thinking the price of a good new violin is supported
somewhat by the preference for 250 year old Italian instruments.
As it is, most of these "cheap" guitars at $15K are probably ending up
in the hands of collectors and dilettantes.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Dicerous

2007-02-05 22:35:03 UTC

On Feb 5, 12:53 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld

These $$$$$ threads always appeal to a certain personality type.
Isn't it funny?!?!

David

wollybird

2007-02-06 03:46:28 UTC

Post by Dicerous
On Feb 5, 12:53 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
As it is, most of these "cheap" guitars at $15K are probably ending up
in the hands of collectors and dilettantes.
Steve

These $$$$$ threads always appeal to a certain personality type.
Isn't it funny?!?!

In a nut shell, that's the anwser

William D Clinger

2007-02-05 23:11:14 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
As it is, most of these "cheap" guitars at $15K are probably ending up
in the hands of collectors and dilettantes.
Steve

Most musical instruments are bought by us dilettantes.
That's true of pianos, clarinets, saxophones, drums,
trumpets, harmonicas, French horns, you name it.

FWIW, new student quality oboes go for about $2000, and
professional quality starts around $6000. Flute prices
are similar.

Will

Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-06 03:47:48 UTC

Post by William D Clinger

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
As it is, most of these "cheap" guitars at $15K are probably ending up
in the hands of collectors and dilettantes.
Steve

Most musical instruments are bought by us dilettantes.
That's true of pianos, clarinets, saxophones, drums,
trumpets, harmonicas, French horns, you name it.
FWIW, new student quality oboes go for about $2000, and
professional quality starts around $6000. Flute prices
are similar.
Will

Sounds like a pretty upscale school, if they're using these for
orchestra/band practice.
Nothing wrong with being a dilettante. But I wouldn't count a 10 year
old taking clarinet lessons a dilettante, and I doubt the average 10
year old taking clarinet lessons paid $2000 for their instrument. And
yes, instrument makers deserve to make a good living.

Steve

Steve

Larry Deack

2007-02-06 04:29:45 UTC

And yes, instrument makers deserve to make a good living.

Have you ever watched the show "How it's Made"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_it%27s_made

They've done episodes on acoustic guitars and flutes. It's mostly
automated these days and the automation is getting better and better
with less and less humans. This is true of almost everything we make as
can bee seen on the TV show which is mostly about machines making stuff.

The question is whether an individual artisan can make a living
competing in a world of ever increasing quality machine made goods? At
what point is the automation as good as the experts?

John Philip Dimick

2007-02-06 11:26:58 UTC

Post by Larry Deack
The question is whether an individual artisan can make a living
competing in a world of ever increasing quality machine made goods? At
what point is the automation as good as the experts?

Let's say you compare two guitars, one machine-made and one hand-made.
Then let's say they they seem equal to you in every respect -- price,
quality, playability, sound, appearance. Which would you rather own?

John LaCroix

2007-02-06 15:38:20 UTC

I would always prefer to own an instrument made by a single person
dedicated to the craft, and not just the consistent output of a modern
factory.

Look at it like this. What if you were offered two pieces of music -
one written by a composer and the other the product of an as of now
non-existent software program. Both pieces seem equal in every respect
except you know that one was crafted by a human being and one wasn't.
Which one would you accept?

To me, part of the poetry of music and the guitar is the privilege and
honor to carry on a human tradition that has been handed down to us -
and hopefully be able to do the task justice. This applies to many
things in life - you would prefer Grandma's chocolate chip cookies to
store bought, wouldn't you?

I think it is even more important these days to keep in touch with our
humanity in light of the intrusion of mechanization into every facet
of our lives.

John L.

Dicerous

2007-02-06 16:02:24 UTC

I would always prefer to own an instrument made by a single person
dedicated to the craft, and not just the consistent output of a modern
factory.
Look at it like this. What if you were offered two pieces of music -
one written by a composer and the other the product of an as of now
non-existent software program. Both pieces seem equal in every respect
except you know that one was crafted by a human being and one wasn't.
Which one would you accept?
To me, part of the poetry of music and the guitar is the privilege and
honor to carry on a human tradition that has been handed down to us -
and hopefully be able to do the task justice. This applies to many
things in life - you would prefer Grandma's chocolate chip cookies to
store bought, wouldn't you?
I think it is even more important these days to keep in touch with our
humanity in light of the intrusion of mechanization into every facet
of our lives.
John L.

Tom,

I think you're missing the point: grandma's cookies weren't $25000
per batch.

David

John LaCroix

2007-02-06 17:00:00 UTC

I would always prefer to own an instrument made by a single person
dedicated to the craft, and not just the consistent output of a modern
factory.
Look at it like this. What if you were offered two pieces of music -
one written by a composer and the other the product of an as of now
non-existent software program. Both pieces seem equal in every respect
except you know that one was crafted by a human being and one wasn't.
Which one would you accept?
To me, part of the poetry of music and the guitar is the privilege and
honor to carry on a human tradition that has been handed down to us -
and hopefully be able to do the task justice. This applies to many
things in life - you would prefer Grandma's chocolate chip cookies to
store bought, wouldn't you?
I think it is even more important these days to keep in touch with our
humanity in light of the intrusion of mechanization into every facet
of our lives.
John L.

Tom,
I think you're missing the point: grandma's cookies weren't $25000
per batch.
David- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WTF?

Dicerous

2007-02-08 17:53:15 UTC

I would always prefer to own an instrument made by a single person
dedicated to the craft, and not just the consistent output of a modern
factory.
Look at it like this. What if you were offered two pieces of music -
one written by a composer and the other the product of an as of now
non-existent software program. Both pieces seem equal in every respect
except you know that one was crafted by a human being and one wasn't.
Which one would you accept?
To me, part of the poetry of music and the guitar is the privilege and
honor to carry on a human tradition that has been handed down to us -
and hopefully be able to do the task justice. This applies to many
things in life - you would prefer Grandma's chocolate chip cookies to
store bought, wouldn't you?
I think it is even more important these days to keep in touch with our
humanity in light of the intrusion of mechanization into every facet
of our lives.
John L.

Tom,
I think you're missing the point: grandma's cookies weren't $25000
per batch.
David- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

WTF?

John,

Have you ever seen Aaron Flinn touring around Vermont? He's my
cousin. An excellent flat-picker. Maybe you can build him a guitar?

David

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-06 17:42:34 UTC

I would always prefer to own an instrument made by a single person
dedicated to the craft, and not just the consistent output of a modern
factory.
Look at it like this. What if you were offered two pieces of music -
one written by a composer and the other the product of an as of now
non-existent software program. Both pieces seem equal in every respect
except you know that one was crafted by a human being and one wasn't.
Which one would you accept?
To me, part of the poetry of music and the guitar is the privilege and
honor to carry on a human tradition that has been handed down to us -
and hopefully be able to do the task justice. This applies to many
things in life - you would prefer Grandma's chocolate chip cookies to
store bought, wouldn't you?
I think it is even more important these days to keep in touch with our
humanity in light of the intrusion of mechanization into every facet
of our lives.
John L.

Tom,
I think you're missing the point: grandma's cookies weren't $25000
per batch.
David

LOL!

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-06 17:47:01 UTC

I would always prefer to own an instrument made by a single person
dedicated to the craft, and not just the consistent output of a modern
factory.
Look at it like this. What if you were offered two pieces of music -
one written by a composer and the other the product of an as of now
non-existent software program. Both pieces seem equal in every respect
except you know that one was crafted by a human being and one wasn't.
Which one would you accept?
To me, part of the poetry of music and the guitar is the privilege and
honor to carry on a human tradition that has been handed down to us -
and hopefully be able to do the task justice. This applies to many
things in life - you would prefer Grandma's chocolate chip cookies to
store bought, wouldn't you?
I think it is even more important these days to keep in touch with our
humanity in light of the intrusion of mechanization into every facet
of our lives.
John L.

There is a powerful pull to this argument. Just remember that it is a
totally extramusical argument.
I'm reasonably sure that if they ever come up with a usable vaccine
against tooth decay, people will take it and not mourn the loss of my
time-honored, noble, centuries-old, labor-intensive,
artistically-engaged tradition of restorative dentistry.
We already have CAD-CAM systems that eliminate the fabrication of
inlays and crowns by skilled laboratory technicians.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Larry Deack

2007-02-06 18:27:47 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
We already have CAD-CAM systems that eliminate the fabrication of
inlays and crowns by skilled laboratory technicians.

A lot of "hand made" guitars now have CNC made bridges and mass
produced rosettes. Many makers use side bending machines. Then there are
the bindings and purflings not to mention the machine heads...

I don't think most people realize how fast automation is taking over
the process of making things. There is a guy in China who has a goal to
make top of the line musical instruments with virtually no people
touching the product. Every year his process gets better and better.

Many surfers don't like to buy CNC made boards but the truth is that
even pros can't tell the hand made from the CNC copy any more.

http://www.shapers.com.au/category30_1.htm

Ed Chait

2007-02-07 01:02:59 UTC

We already have CAD-CAM systems that eliminate the fabrication of inlays
and crowns by skilled laboratory technicians.
Steve

How good are the aesthetics and margins on those puppies?

ed

Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-07 03:46:09 UTC

We already have CAD-CAM systems that eliminate the fabrication of inlays
and crowns by skilled laboratory technicians.
Steve

How good are the aesthetics and margins on those puppies?
ed

Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-07 03:53:53 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
We already have CAD-CAM systems that eliminate the fabrication of
inlays and crowns by skilled laboratory technicians.
Steve

How good are the aesthetics and margins on those puppies?
ed

Oh--the margins? Haven't seen them. These restorations are bonded in
place, and indirect restorations bonded into place should have margins
that are quite good. I doubt anything indirect is going to match cast
gold, but no one wants it anymore (sadly).

Steve

Ed Chait

2007-02-07 04:52:38 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
We already have CAD-CAM systems that eliminate the fabrication of
inlays and crowns by skilled laboratory technicians.
Steve

How good are the aesthetics and margins on those puppies?
ed

I'm hardly an expert here. There was a dentist in Michigan who was
active on the dental newsgroup sci.med.dentistry who for years was
trying to get me on board. There are some very good things about it,
and they've gotten more sophisticated. I believe they can now create
not just a restoration to fit the prepared tooth, but one with an
appropriate chewing surface to articulate with the opposing tooth. They
come in a variety of shades. However, natural teeth do not have a
uniform color, and tend to vary from the chewing surface to the gumline.
These restorations are milled at this point from ceramic blanks of
various shades. So if you want the gradation of color or
characterization of a natural tooth you still have to custom stain them.
Nothing wrong with that, but since the intent is to cut out the dental
lab it defeats part of the purpose.
Still, a very cool technology. I think the new machines are well into
6 figures. I think I'd rather have a Jeff Elliot.

Oh--the margins? Haven't seen them. These restorations are bonded in
place, and indirect restorations bonded into place should have margins
that are quite good. I doubt anything indirect is going to match cast
gold, but no one wants it anymore (sadly).

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

At this point in time, I think I would rather have Jeff Elliott also, but
machines will continue to improve and become less expensive.

Even so, as you mention in regards to aesthetics, art is far more than just
precision (margins). The same machine that never produces a dud will most
probably also never produce a jewel.

ed

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-07 14:57:02 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
We already have CAD-CAM systems that eliminate the fabrication of
inlays and crowns by skilled laboratory technicians.
Steve

How good are the aesthetics and margins on those puppies?
ed

I'm hardly an expert here. There was a dentist in Michigan who was
active on the dental newsgroup sci.med.dentistry who for years was
trying to get me on board. There are some very good things about it,
and they've gotten more sophisticated. I believe they can now create
not just a restoration to fit the prepared tooth, but one with an
appropriate chewing surface to articulate with the opposing tooth. They
come in a variety of shades. However, natural teeth do not have a
uniform color, and tend to vary from the chewing surface to the gumline.
These restorations are milled at this point from ceramic blanks of
various shades. So if you want the gradation of color or
characterization of a natural tooth you still have to custom stain them.
Nothing wrong with that, but since the intent is to cut out the dental
lab it defeats part of the purpose.
Still, a very cool technology. I think the new machines are well into
6 figures. I think I'd rather have a Jeff Elliot.
Oh--the margins? Haven't seen them. These restorations are bonded in
place, and indirect restorations bonded into place should have margins
that are quite good. I doubt anything indirect is going to match cast
gold, but no one wants it anymore (sadly).
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
At this point in time, I think I would rather have Jeff Elliott also, but
machines will continue to improve and become less expensive.
Even so, as you mention in regards to aesthetics, art is far more than just
precision (margins). The same machine that never produces a dud will most
probably also never produce a jewel.
ed

Maybe, I'm not so sure. I once tried a lab tech--most beautiful crowns
I've ever made. But it took an hour and a half to get each one to fit,
so I couldn't use him. Sometimes it's hard to get the entire package.
And as Alan says, there's so much variation in the wood that you've got
to be good, and probably a little lucky too. So maybe there is a bit of
magic involved.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

alcarruth

2007-02-06 18:42:02 UTC

Larry Deack asked:
" At what point is the automation as good as the experts? "

As good at what?

At this point I don't think you'd get much argument from most luthiers
if you said that computer controlled tooling produces more
consistently accurate parts, and does it much faster. If that were all
there were to making better guitars then the production boys would
have driven us all out long ago. It's not.

I heard that fine example of Elliot's work at the GAL in what's often
called by the luthiers 'the shootout'. There were twenty-five or
thirty guitars there, and, except for a few, all were attractive, well
made, and sounded quite good. There were differences, to be sure, and
different players would have prefered one over another for any number
of good reasons, but very few of those instruments would have been
hard to sell. There were a couple of other 'big names' there, aside
from Elliot, too. What made that guitar special was the sound.

There's a lot we don't know about sound production in the guitar, but
everybody agrees that, if you want to get a good sound, you have to
use good wood, and use it right. Most people who haven't built
instruments are suprised at how variable wood can be in important
respects. Two 'identical' looking tops of the same species can vary in
density by 50%, in stiffness along the grain by a similar amount, and
in cross grain stiffness by a factor of three or more. To get a good
tone out of tops that vary by that much, you have to 'work to the
wood', altering the thickness and bracing patterns to suit. Usually
the best luthiers have some sort of 'voicing' technique they have
learned or devised to help fine-tune the response.

This necessarily means that the best sounding guitars will vary a bit
in dimensions from one another, and that a certain amount of hand work
will be involved. Both of these are simply impossible to acommodate in
a production setting, where uniformity of parts is the key to rapid
assembly, and man-hours are the most expensive input. Production shops
get lucky once in a while, a reputation like Elliot's comes from
getting it right over and over.

It's entirely plausible that mass produced guitars, which have gotten
a lot better in the past thirty years or so, will continue to improve.
But I think there will always be a divide between them and the hand
made instruments that define the highest levels of tone. At least, I
hope so....

Alan Carruth / Luthier

Larry Deack

2007-02-06 19:03:00 UTC

Post by alcarruth
It's entirely plausible that mass produced guitars, which have gotten
a lot better in the past thirty years or so, will continue to improve.
But I think there will always be a divide between them and the hand
made instruments that define the highest levels of tone. At least, I
hope so....

The process is accelerating exponentially. I would bet that in 20
years your shootout will include guitars made entirely by machines and
nobody will be able to tell which one is made by the machines. In fact,
in 20-30 years machines may be smarter than the best luthier today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-06 19:25:08 UTC

The process is accelerating exponentially. I would bet that in 20
years your shootout will include guitars made entirely by machines and
nobody will be able to tell which one is made by the machines. In fact,
in 20-30 years machines may be smarter than the best luthier today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

Most of us have stopped using the word "intelligence" as a quantifiable
quality.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Larry Deack

2007-02-06 19:51:25 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Most of us have stopped using the
word "intelligence" as a
quantifiable quality.

Most of who?

Dicerous

2007-02-06 21:46:53 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Most of us have stopped using the
word "intelligence" as a
quantifiable quality.

Most of who?

most of who(m)

David

alcarruth

2007-02-07 18:42:05 UTC

Larry Deack wrote:
"I would bet that in 20
years your shootout will include guitars made entirely by machines
and
nobody will be able to tell which one is made by the machines."

That's pretty much true now in terms of appearance. Guitar factories
have always had to work to the average, though, in terms of sound:
they come up with a design that usually produces a reasonably good
guitar, and once in a while turns out something much better, or worse.
The other issue that factories have to contend with is durability:
they have to assume that their weakest set of braces is going to get
put on the weakest top. Thus most production guitars tend to be at
least somewhat over built. This is particularly damaging on classical
guitars, where even a little too much mass can hurt the tone
noticably. That's why, in general, factory guitars tend not to have
the sort of tone that a good hand maker can achieve consistently,
IMO.

One trend that is spreading in the small shop world is that of
outsourcing. Many makers these days farm out certain production steps
to specialists for one reason or another. Most of the 'modern' sprayed
finishes, for example, require expensive equipment to use, either for
legal reasons, since they tend to be fire hazards, or else because of
the nature of the finish itself. UV cured finishes, for example,
require a special, and expensive, light to cure. People with computer
controlled tooling are doing more of the repetitive or precise work,
from cutting inlays to carving necks. Very few makers any more seem to
produce their own rosettes.

It could be said that guitar making in the US over the past thirty
years or so was unusual in that there was so little of this; the
practice is documented as far back as Dante's day. It's likely that
most lute roses were carved by specialty makers, and guitar makers in
Spain used to farm out French polishing to local shops, usually
consisting of women who did nothing else.

The interesting question here is where 'individual' production stops
and the 'factory' begins. Many feel that what counts are the design
and 'fine tuning' stages, with the intermediate steps being of lesser
imporatnce. This has long been the norm in furniture, art glass, and
pottery, for example, where names like Ruhlmann and Tiffany denote
shops or designers, rather than the output of single makers working
alone. There is some evidence that Antonio Stradivari worked the same
way.

So perhaps the 'good old days' of individual makers who did everything
in the US are something of an aberration, which will soon be
superceded by a more 'normal' form of group production, dominated by
designers/craftsmen who supervise, set up machines, and apply the
finishing touches. Whether there will be sufficient flexibilty in
this process to assure consistent high quality in tone remains to be
seen: it worked for Strad.

Alan Carruth / Luthier

Andrew Schulman

2007-02-07 19:13:07 UTC

guitar makers in Spain used to farm out French polishing to local shops, usually
consisting of women who did nothing else.

Al-

As you know, Cyndy Burton, J. Elliott's life and business partner,
does the French polishing for the guitars he makes, as well as the
ones she builds. She's is widely admired for her craftwork.

I think what you are talking about here makes perfect sense re:
widening the work force.

Andrew

Benoît Meulle-Stef

2007-02-07 22:14:46 UTC

Dear Al:
That is so true! I never understanded the reason to do 100 of
the job yourself. For all times, as you refered luthiers used second shops
for:
Metal parts (harp mecanics made by clockmakers)
rosettes (carved in parchemin or wood)
even prefab lute back from Italy and necks (used widely by Parisian makers)
inlays
carvings
finish.
Wy not make your own tuners, strings, varnish (with cotton and acid)?
I desided long time ago to built guitars but I'm not ethernal and cant learn
as well sculpting, perfect inlays, marketry and so one. I mean, I know and
can do it, but 50% less acurate than a specialist. Having health problems I
prefer to focus my energy on acoustics parts of the guitar and having pros
making for me the inlay cut (didnt started yet but it's on its way, I will
just need to glue them myself on the guitars), rosettes and special parts
like metal works and graphite/epoxy molding... I wouild love to get a CNC
too :-).
Cheers
Ben born 200 years too late :-(

Steve Perry

2007-02-07 22:46:00 UTC

The process is accelerating exponentially. I would bet that in 20
years your shootout will include guitars made entirely by machines and
nobody will be able to tell which one is made by the machines. In fact,
in 20-30 years machines may be smarter than the best luthier today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

I doubt that, Larry. I've been hearing about how good the machines are
going to be for a long time, and one that plays chess good enough to
beat a master is one thing, that's a matter of processing power; a
machine that does fine art, writes novels, or builds concert-quality
guitars? A beast of a different color, I think.

Anybody beat the Turing Test yet? Did I miss it?

Me, I'm still waiting for my rocket pack and food pills. It's great
living here in the future, but it is not what it was supposed to be.
Where are the mile-high buildings with all the mooring masts for
dirigibles ... ?

Progress sometimes veers off the expected path. Because something might
be done doesn't mean it will be. Why aren't we colonizing Mars? We
already have the technology.

My Carruth and Bogdanovich guitars are head and shoulders above any
production-classical I've ever laid hands on, and I tried a bunch of
'em.

--
Steve

Larry Deack

2007-02-07 23:44:27 UTC

Hi Steve,

Post by Steve Perry
I doubt that, Larry. I've been hearing about how good the machines are
going to be for a long time, and one that plays chess good enough to
beat a master is one thing, that's a matter of processing power; a
machine that does fine art, writes novels, or builds concert-quality
guitars? A beast of a different color, I think.

http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/ComputersCantThink.txt

Post by Steve Perry
Anybody beat the Turing Test yet? Did I miss it?

Have you read Harry Harrison's The Turing Option (1992) (with Marvin
Minsky) They put it at 2023. I'll buy you a beer if we are both around
for that one :-)

It's also possible that a super mind has already been born within the
Internet but we are not aware that we all form part of that mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansible

Post by Steve Perry
Me, I'm still waiting for my rocket pack and food pills. It's great
living here in the future, but it is not what it was supposed to be.
Where are the mile-high buildings with all the mooring masts for
dirigibles ... ?

Lots of things have not come true and lots of things have. The
Internet is much more complex than any individual can begin to
understand. Did you predict it? I did and that's why I got into the
software industry and became the network administrator for a software
company in the 90s and pushed our CEO to register www.zeno.com before
someone else took it. Zeno is very appropriate for this conversation
since the tipping point for Strong AI might be much like a Achilles
passing the tortoise.

Post by Steve Perry
Progress sometimes veers off the expected path. Because something might
be done doesn't mean it will be. Why aren't we colonizing Mars? We
already have the technology.

Perhaps we were busy creating things like the Internet and sequencing
DNA. What's next? Remember how long some people thought it would take to
sequence DNA? Remember what the tipping point was? Things are changing
faster than most of us older folks seem to realize.

Post by Steve Perry
My Carruth and Bogdanovich guitars are head and shoulders above any
production-classical I've ever laid hands on, and I tried a bunch of
'em.

I think that will hold true for some 20-30 years but after that I'm
pretty darn sure that things will be very different from what either of
us can understand if we are still around for it.

Exponential growth tends to creep up on us. The tipping point for the
Internet was interesting to me since many people said I was too enamored
with computers and what I predicted about everything going digital was
silly.

Since I left the industry and returned to teaching music I have read
a bit on this subject as it relates to education. There are some very
interesting people in this world who know more about this than either of
us. Some may even read this NG and laugh at our posts :-)

Dicerous

2007-02-08 01:17:44 UTC

Post by Larry Deack
Hi Steve,

http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/ComputersCantThink.txt

Post by Steve Perry
Anybody beat the Turing Test yet? Did I miss it?

Have you read Harry Harrison's The Turing Option (1992) (with Marvin
Minsky) They put it at 2023. I'll buy you a beer if we are both around
for that one :-)
It's also possible that a super mind has already been born within the
Internet but we are not aware that we all form part of that mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansible

Lots of things have not come true and lots of things have. The
Internet is much more complex than any individual can begin to
understand. Did you predict it? I did and that's why I got into the
software industry and became the network administrator for a software
company in the 90s and pushed our CEO to registerwww.zeno.combefore
someone else took it. Zeno is very appropriate for this conversation
since the tipping point for Strong AI might be much like a Achilles
passing the tortoise.

Post by Steve Perry
Progress sometimes veers off the expected path. Because something might
be done doesn't mean it will be. Why aren't we colonizing Mars? We
already have the technology.

Post by Steve Perry
My Carruth and Bogdanovich guitars are head and shoulders above any
production-classical I've ever laid hands on, and I tried a bunch of
'em.

I think that will hold true for some 20-30 years but after that I'm
pretty darn sure that things will be very different from what either of
us can understand if we are still around for it.
Exponential growth tends to creep up on us. The tipping point for the
Internet was interesting to me since many people said I was too enamored
with computers and what I predicted about everything going digital was
silly.
Since I left the industry and returned to teaching music I have read
a bit on this subject as it relates to education. There are some very
interesting people in this world who know more about this than either of
us. Some may even read this NG and laugh at our posts :-)

so..is the point that, when one becomes a God, there are other things
to talk about? Having arrived is having no place left to go. How's
the silver market BTW?

David

Steve Perry

2007-02-08 18:37:15 UTC

Post by Larry Deack
Have you read Harry Harrison's The Turing Option (1992) (with Marvin
Minsky) They put it at 2023. I'll buy you a beer if we are both around
for that one :-)

Yeah, I did read that, and a bunch of other pie-in-the-sky stuff -- I
work in that field, I've met Harrison, grew up reading him and Minsky.

Smart fellows, but like other predictions of the future, it's purely
guesswork. If we don't blow ourselves up, yep, we'll have a future, but
nobody can predict what it'll look like. Without a working crystal
ball, it's all extrapolation from the known, and there is always an
X-factor that screws things up. Something that causes us to veer
slightly to the right instead of the left, and takes us down a path
nobody could have expected.

Back in the thirties a bunch of the smartest scientists got together,
the cutting edge guys, and predicted what 1969 would look like. Those
mile-high buildings, rocket packs, dirigibles, and hundreds of channels
of radio. They got the last one right, but missed television (already
invented) computers, passenger jets, even transistors. No LEDs, LCDs,
no EEGs, no CAT scans, such things never occurred to them.

Go back fifty years and look for somebody who predicted what things
look like today. Nobody did. People got little pieces of it, and some
of those were actually seeds -- Telstar, cheap computers -- but mostly
somebody who claims to be a futurist is blowing smoke and waving
mirrors. We can't predict the weather two weeks out, save in the most
general of ways; the chaos of that is beyond us. Trying to work out the
sociology, biology, and technology of civilization ten or twenty years
out? Waaay beyond our capabilities.

That's why we aren't on Mars, and why the cities don't look like Fritz
Lang's Metropolis -- thanks for that one, Steve -- we zigged when the
sci fi guys said we'd zag.

Certainly with a sophisticated enough program and the tools, Alan
Carruth or his like, could probably program a machine that would
duplicate much of what he can do by feel and experience. But having a
machine that can take apart one of his guitars, weigh and measure
everything, and then build an identical one from scratch -- one that
will sound the same? Not by 2023 CE. Alan can't make two exactly the
same and a computer that can thin a top exactly as the last one
probably won't be able to match the last one because wood isn't an
exact medium. The luthier AI might not be able to look at the wood and
realize it ought not to be exactly that thin because of some very hard
to pin down element even Alan can't quantify. An AI as complex as the
human brain? Not in twenty years, not gonna happen. The
suddenly-sentient internet is a great science fiction concept, but
CyberDyne Systems isn't about to give us SkyNet ...

Somebody could come up with a computer program that writes better than
I can. But one that beats John Locke? I'm not holding my breath. If I
live another twenty years, I don't think I'll see it.

Too many variables for our current technology to handle. The science
stuff is easier than the art stuff. Someday, maybe, but we won't live
to see it.

--
Steve

John Nguyen

2007-02-08 18:56:01 UTC

Post by Steve Perry

Post by Larry Deack
Have you read Harry Harrison's The Turing Option (1992) (with Marvin
Minsky) They put it at 2023. I'll buy you a beer if we are both around
for that one :-)

Yeah, I did read that, and a bunch of other pie-in-the-sky stuff -- I
work in that field, I've met Harrison, grew up reading him and Minsky.
Smart fellows, but like other predictions of the future, it's purely
guesswork. If we don't blow ourselves up, yep, we'll have a future, but
nobody can predict what it'll look like. Without a working crystal
ball, it's all extrapolation from the known, and there is always an
X-factor that screws things up. Something that causes us to veer
slightly to the right instead of the left, and takes us down a path
nobody could have expected.
Back in the thirties a bunch of the smartest scientists got together,
the cutting edge guys, and predicted what 1969 would look like. Those
mile-high buildings, rocket packs, dirigibles, and hundreds of channels
of radio. They got the last one right, but missed television (already
invented) computers, passenger jets, even transistors. No LEDs, LCDs,
no EEGs, no CAT scans, such things never occurred to them.
Go back fifty years and look for somebody who predicted what things
look like today. Nobody did. People got little pieces of it, and some
of those were actually seeds -- Telstar, cheap computers -- but mostly
somebody who claims to be a futurist is blowing smoke and waving
mirrors. We can't predict the weather two weeks out, save in the most
general of ways; the chaos of that is beyond us. Trying to work out the
sociology, biology, and technology of civilization ten or twenty years
out? Waaay beyond our capabilities.
That's why we aren't on Mars, and why the cities don't look like Fritz
Lang's Metropolis -- thanks for that one, Steve -- we zigged when the
sci fi guys said we'd zag.
Certainly with a sophisticated enough program and the tools, Alan
Carruth or his like, could probably program a machine that would
duplicate much of what he can do by feel and experience. But having a
machine that can take apart one of his guitars, weigh and measure
everything, and then build an identical one from scratch -- one that
will sound the same? Not by 2023 CE. Alan can't make two exactly the
same and a computer that can thin a top exactly as the last one
probably won't be able to match the last one because wood isn't an
exact medium. The luthier AI might not be able to look at the wood and
realize it ought not to be exactly that thin because of some very hard
to pin down element even Alan can't quantify. An AI as complex as the
human brain? Not in twenty years, not gonna happen. The
suddenly-sentient internet is a great science fiction concept, but
CyberDyne Systems isn't about to give us SkyNet ...
Somebody could come up with a computer program that writes better than
I can. But one that beats John Locke? I'm not holding my breath. If I
live another twenty years, I don't think I'll see it.
Too many variables for our current technology to handle. The science
stuff is easier than the art stuff. Someday, maybe, but we won't live
to see it.
--
Steve

Very well said, Steve! I second your opition.
Cheers,

John

Larry Deack

2007-02-08 18:58:39 UTC

Post by John Nguyen
Very well said, Steve! I second your opition.

That's two of you who are better at predicting than Minsky.
Interesting. I hope you guys are right.

John Nguyen

2007-02-08 19:07:37 UTC

Post by John Nguyen
Very well said, Steve! I second your opition.

That's two of you who are better at predicting than Minsky.
Interesting. I hope you guys are right.

I'm just saying that I don't give much credit to any prediction of the
future based on past history :-)
Cheers,

John

Larry Deack

2007-02-08 19:21:56 UTC

Post by John Nguyen
I'm just saying that I don't give
much credit to any prediction of the
future based on past history :-)

I think I know what you meant to say :-)

I think it depends on how you read that past history. I don't think
technological change is linear. I think it's geometric.

I think you and Steve assume that things change at a constant rate. I
don't see it that way.

I wrote my first code in 1968 and at that time most people thought I
was nuts predicting what we have now with computer technology dominating
our culture.

The killer app for the next change is when we are connected 24/7 and
have access to graphic overlays so when we look at something we can ask
"What's that?"

You should have heard the crap I got when I tried to get my company
into GPS stuff. What I got from others was, "Why the f*&! do I want to
know where I am?"

Steve Perry

2007-02-08 20:02:45 UTC

Post by Larry Deack
I wrote my first code in 1968 and at that time most people thought I
was nuts predicting what we have now with computer technology dominating
our culture.

I'd be interested in hearing what you predicted. How exact it was, and
how broad. I mean, it's one thing to say, "Computers are going to be
big, and everbody will have them." And another to point out how
everybody will have a cell phone that contains a computer and how they
link to the WWW, and how that means pay phones are going the way of the
dodo.

Eight years ago, I came up with a little device for a novel called a
"virgil," a virtual global interface link. Size of a pack of
cigarettes, it was a cell phone, computer, clock, credit card, camera,
modem, scanner, fax, and GPS.

Eight years ago, cell phones were still just phones. I didn't have
access to what the companies were developing, I just made it up.

Book was set in 2010 CE, and the technology blew past that three years
early. (No fax, but nobody really needs that because Blue Tooth will
let you download stuff to a printer or computer.)

I'm not claiming any ability to predict the future, I just cobbled
together a toy I thought would be fun.

Unless you have that working crystal ball, predicting the future is
still no more than guesswork, and more often than not, wrong.

--
Steve

Larry Deack

2007-02-08 18:57:12 UTC

Hi again Steve,

Post by Steve Perry
Too many variables for our current technology to handle. The science
stuff is easier than the art stuff. Someday, maybe, but we won't live
to see it.

It's funny that you think you can predict the future better than
others like Minsky. What makes your predictions better?

BTW, I hope you are right and I'm wrong but I have a nasty feeling
that I'm closer to the mark than you. I wish I could slow it down.

I also hope you are around in 2023 so I can buy you that beer. Hope
I'm around too. Hope there is some good beer too :-)

Steve Perry

2007-02-08 19:43:54 UTC

Post by Larry Deack
Hi again Steve,

Post by Steve Perry
Too many variables for our current technology to handle. The science
stuff is easier than the art stuff. Someday, maybe, but we won't live
to see it.

It's funny that you think you can predict the future better than
others like Minsky. What makes your predictions better?
BTW, I hope you are right and I'm wrong but I have a nasty feeling
that I'm closer to the mark than you. I wish I could slow it down.
I also hope you are around in 2023 so I can buy you that beer. Hope
I'm around too. Hope there is some good beer too :-)

Simple. People who predict things that *will* happen have a tougher row
to hoe than those who say "Nah, I don't think so. Show me." which is
what I'm doing. Burden of proof in a debate lies with the affirmative. I
don't believe you can make the prediction and offer any evidence, and I
base that on the fact that, as far as I am able to tell, nobody has ever
done it before. Where is the precedent that disproves it?

Science is quantifiable, repeatable, and deals with accessible
principles. If a scientist does an experiment in the U.S., a careful
scientist in China should, if s/he has the tools and expertise, be able
to replicate the results there. If they can't, then it's not science.

Art? Way different. Craft is necessary, but is not enough.

You are a human with a functioning brain, far beyond our current ability
to duplicate with computers. Do you think you could be taught --
programmed -- to paint or sculpt as well as Leonardo Da Vinci? You have
the same basic hardware, but not the software, and I'd bet you (or I)
couldn't be taught that part which makes the big difference -- assuming
there was somebody bright enough to show us, which is another can of
worms.

Lot of people could learn the craft, how to mix the paint, wield the
chisel, but the spark? Not so easily done.

Copying is not the same as creating. Playing a piece that Mozart wrote
is not the same as writing it.

We already have pretty good beer and people who like to drink it, so I'd
bet it'll still be around in twenty years. But we don't have AI luthiers
who can outbuild the best organics, no reason to spend a fortune trying
to develop 'em, and no technology vis a vis the intelligence to make 'em
if we wanted to. I'd say it's a safe bet on my part it won't happen in a
couple decades, and a reasonable prediction.

--
Steve
http://home.comcast.net/~perry1966/index.html

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-08 15:03:44 UTC

Post by Steve Perry

The process is accelerating exponentially. I would bet that in 20
years your shootout will include guitars made entirely by machines and
nobody will be able to tell which one is made by the machines. In fact,
in 20-30 years machines may be smarter than the best luthier today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

Steve--

Your town doesn't look like this??

Loading Image...

Steve

Post by Steve Perry
Progress sometimes veers off the expected path. Because something might
be done doesn't mean it will be. Why aren't we colonizing Mars? We
already have the technology.
My Carruth and Bogdanovich guitars are head and shoulders above any
production-classical I've ever laid hands on, and I tried a bunch of
'em.

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Larry Deack

2007-02-08 15:29:52 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Your town doesn't look like this??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis_%28film%29

"Society has been divided into two rigid groups: one of planners or
thinkers, who live high above the earth in luxury, and another of
workers who live underground toiling to sustain the lives of the
privileged."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_World_Tower

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

John LaCroix

2007-02-08 14:29:16 UTC

Post by Larry Deack
In fact,
in 20-30 years machines may be smarter than the best luthier today.

How's that going to happen - machines are programmed by people to do
specific tasks. If there is
no agreement among experts (today's luthiers) on the 'secret formula'
for the 'perfect guitar' than who is
going to program these machines?

Down another path, if you think in 20 years machines will be
programming themselves than I think they
will make excellent guitars that the machines will enjoy listenting to
above all else. I will reserve my judgement
until I hear one.

Remember, at best the machine is only as good as the person who
programmed it. And that's AT BEST, which is
hardly the standard of what we see in the real world which is what's
GOOD ENOUGH.

John L.

Larry Deack

2007-02-08 15:10:22 UTC

Post by John LaCroix
Remember, at best the machine
is only as good as the person who
programmed it.

I don't got no high school diploma but this guy says it better than I
could anyway:

http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/ComputersCantThink.txt

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-08 16:01:34 UTC

Post by John LaCroix
Remember, at best the machine
is only as good as the person who
programmed it.

I don't got no high school diploma but this guy says it better than I
http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/ComputersCantThink.txt

Hmmm. I wonder whom this paper was intended for. I't
positively--theological. This man might be capable of getting me on
Jackson's philosophical wavelength.
Or maybe he's just not getting through to me. Language is so complex...

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Larry Deack

2007-02-08 16:11:13 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Hmmm. I wonder whom this paper was intended for. I't
positively--theological. This man might be capable of getting me on
Jackson's philosophical wavelength.
Or maybe he's just not getting through to me. Language is so
complex...

Did you read the whole thing already? If you did then congratulations!

John LaCroix

2007-02-08 16:28:02 UTC

Post by John LaCroix
Remember, at best the machine
is only as good as the person who
programmed it.

I don't got no high school diploma but this guy says it better than I
http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/ComputersCantThink.txt

I've seen so much of that I don't care to remember - I think I read
the same thing back in '82, before I got my master's in electrical
engineering, joined IEEE, or spent 20 years in the industry. For the
record, I believe machines will be able to think, eventually. And be
creative, etc. Why? Because we do, and what we are is essentially a
bilogical machine. And our brains are to some extent a massively
parallell processing system that uses organic chemistry to function
instead of silicone and wires. Make no mistake, once we figure out how
or brains really work we will then have the ability to construct
thinking machines - technology willing.

The question to me is, if I could today walk up to the replicator and
instead of saying 'Earl Grey, Hot' say '37 Hauser' will that be as
satisfying as the real thing? Call me old fashion, but I get a thrill
experiencing the real thing - the virtual thing is like eating the
sandwitches you get at a 7/11 - sure they will fill you up but the
taste could be better.

John L.

Larry Deack

2007-02-08 16:37:52 UTC

Post by John LaCroix
The question to me is, if I could today walk up to the replicator and
instead of saying 'Earl Grey, Hot' say '37 Hauser' will that be as
satisfying as the real thing? Call me old fashion, but I get a thrill
experiencing the real thing - the virtual thing is like eating the
sandwitches you get at a 7/11 - sure they will fill you up but the
taste could be better.

I definitely agree. It is an interesting question. I think that's why
I tend to avoid most virtual stuff these days. I think the memories of
real world experiences are worth the sometimes rough ride.

That's why I will be spending more time in the near future with pink
sand in my toes. So Cal is getting to be like living inside the machine.

Benoît Meulle-Stef

2007-02-06 08:38:40 UTC

Post by Steven Bornfeld
yes, instrument makers deserve to make a good living.
Steve
Steve

Great answer! Imagine the time you spend designing and learning the perfect
skills of guitar making. even if you makes and sale a 10K guitar a month
(usualy 10 a year to be honest) you have to deduct a LOT of that money:
Woods
furnitures (tuners, varnish, truss rods, sand paper, brushes...)
Shop tools
Shop rent
Heath insurance
Shop insurance
Shop lectricity and heating
Taxes (Yes we do pay taxes)

Then the amond that is left is for strange things like eating, closes,
home expenses, kids univercity...
So you can see that to live a "normal" life 10K guitar is not soo strange...
I prefer to see a guy buying a 10K hand made guitar than spending them on a
poorly made Gibson, D'Angelico (the new ones), Fender you name it crap...
Cheers
Ben

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

2007-02-06 16:33:34 UTC

Post by Steven Bornfeld
yes, instrument makers deserve to make a good living.
Steve
Steve

Great answer! Imagine the time you spend designing and learning the perfect
skills of guitar making. even if you makes and sale a 10K guitar a month
Woods
furnitures (tuners, varnish, truss rods, sand paper, brushes...)
Shop tools
Shop rent
Heath insurance
Shop insurance
Shop lectricity and heating
Taxes (Yes we do pay taxes)
Then the amond that is left is for strange things like eating, closes,
home expenses, kids univercity...
So you can see that to live a "normal" life 10K guitar is not soo strange...
I prefer to see a guy buying a 10K hand made guitar than spending them on a
poorly made Gibson, D'Angelico (the new ones), Fender you name it crap...
Cheers
Ben

Well, buying western-made goods vs. Chinese or Korean is a different
kind of issue altogether. Free traders (and, of course Troy) cheer
Walmart; I say phooey.
I do not own a Korean or Chinese-made guitar--doubtless the workmanship
will continue to improve, and then we either believe in magic,
chauvinism or we buy Korean.
Of course, no issue is that simple, and I'm one of the lucky who can
afford to say "phooey" to Walmart, so I'm not going to judge others.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

John LaCroix

2007-02-06 17:04:53 UTC

On Feb 6, 11:33 am, Mark & Steven Bornfeld

Post by Steven Bornfeld
yes, instrument makers deserve to make a good living.
Steve
Steve

I don't say phooey to Walmart - I wouldn't buy a guitar there but I
don't have a problem buying underwear or chewing gum there. I think
they have pretty much maxed out the low price business and will find
it harder in the futur to grow their business (in the US). Now they
want to try to capture more upscale clientelle - good luck. As soon as
they build a target near my house Walmart is toast.

John L.
who's wife drags him kicking and screaming to Walmart every weekend...

John L.

Dicerous

2007-02-06 21:46:23 UTC

Post by John LaCroix
On Feb 6, 11:33 am, Mark & Steven Bornfeld

Post by Steven Bornfeld
yes, instrument makers deserve to make a good living.
Steve
Steve

I don't say phooey to Walmart - I wouldn't buy a guitar there but I
don't have a problem buying underwear or chewing gum there. I think
they have pretty much maxed out the low price business and will find
it harder in the futur to grow their business (in the US). Now they
want to try to capture more upscale clientelle - good luck. As soon as
they build a target near my house Walmart is toast.
John L.
who's wife drags him kicking and screaming to Walmart every weekend...
John L.

Although I love intrepid new englanders, I HAVE to deny you entrance
for misunderstanding the possessive *who*. You see, in spite of
national divisions, consumption (which characterizes our industrial
society as a whole) is not JUST an adjustmement to the demands (of
contemporary society) but an evaporated discipline that abraham's
people, the semites, understand WAY better than you. So until then:
go to church, pray for us, build a palace, inductions and initiations,
build your green techonologies. It's certainly moral, but very short
sighted.

David

Tashi

2007-02-07 01:36:49 UTC

Post by John LaCroix
On Feb 6, 11:33 am, Mark & Steven Bornfeld

Post by Steven Bornfeld
yes, instrument makers deserve to make a good living.
Steve
Steve

I don't say phooey to Walmart - I wouldn't buy a guitar there but I
don't have a problem buying underwear or chewing gum there. I think
they have pretty much maxed out the low price business and will find
it harder in the futur to grow their business (in the US). Now they
want to try to capture more upscale clientelle - good luck. As soon as
they build a target near my house Walmart is toast.
John L.
who's wife drags him kicking and screaming to Walmart every weekend...
John L.

go to church, pray for us, build a palace, inductions and initiations,
build your green techonologies. It's certainly moral, but very short
sighted.
David- Hide quoted text -

David, I can say from some experience that green technologies
have nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with
practicality, and soon will become a necessity
MT

Post by Dicerous
- Show quoted text -

Dicerous

2007-02-07 01:59:40 UTC

Post by John LaCroix
On Feb 6, 11:33 am, Mark & Steven Bornfeld

Post by Steven Bornfeld
yes, instrument makers deserve to make a good living.
Steve
Steve

I don't say phooey to Walmart - I wouldn't buy a guitar there but I
don't have a problem buying underwear or chewing gum there. I think
they have pretty much maxed out the low price business and will find
it harder in the futur to grow their business (in the US). Now they
want to try to capture more upscale clientelle - good luck. As soon as
they build a target near my house Walmart is toast.
John L.
who's wife drags him kicking and screaming to Walmart every weekend...
John L.

go to church, pray for us, build a palace, inductions and initiations,
build your green techonologies. It's certainly moral, but very short
sighted.
David- Hide quoted text -

David, I can say from some experience that green technologies
have nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with
practicality, and soon will become a necessity
MT

Post by Dicerous
- Show quoted text -

MT,

I was being facetitious, sorry. But I did just read an article about
how someone high up in the DNC is creating a *democratic
techonologies* mutual fund. And he did use the world moral in
describing it.

David

Andrew Schulman

2007-02-07 01:21:11 UTC

On Feb 6, 3:38 am, "Benoît Meulle-Stef"

Post by BenoÃ®t Meulle-Stef
Great answer! Imagine the time you spend designing and learning the perfect
skills of guitar making.

Hello Benoit-

Jeffrey once told me that he thinks the difference between a good
guitar and a great guitar is in the last 5% of work.

I once asked him to advise me on smoothing the ends of the frets -
although I am not a luthier or repairman I enjoy working on my guitars
for small jobs. This particular guitar was a few years old and as
often happens, the wood had shrunk a little and the fret ends were
sticking out a bit.

I was amazed at how many steps he took to do this! But if you've seen
an Elliott (as you have) you know that the craftsmanship is meticulous
and in that regard he has few peers. This is part of the value of his
guitars. Of course he has also worked hard to acquire superb
materials, and is also known for the re-construction and
rehabilitation of some important historical guitars, among them those
built by Torres and Hauser, as well as others. He has also written a
good number of articles on various luthiery subjects.

Andrew

wollybird

2007-02-06 03:49:55 UTC

Post by William D Clinger

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
As it is, most of these "cheap" guitars at $15K are probably ending up
in the hands of collectors and dilettantes.
Steve

Most musical instruments are bought by us dilettantes.
That's true of pianos, clarinets, saxophones, drums,
trumpets, harmonicas, French horns, you name it.
FWIW, new student quality oboes go for about $2000, and
professional quality starts around $6000. Flute prices
are similar.
Will

My kid plays basoon, try pricing one of those out

rcspross

2007-02-07 05:16:38 UTC

Post by Andrew Schulman
One more question, did it have a cutaway?
Andrew

no.

Andrew,
His open Harmonic bar design appears to be influenced by or a copy of
Jose Romanillos's open harmonic bar design.

His craftsmanship is outstanding.
Regards,
Richard Spross

Post by Andrew Schulman
Now, as to your questions, first, why are they worth so much money?
Because that is the price he sets and he has had no trouble selling
them, people that try them agree with the assessment that they are
exceptional. His broker, Armin Kelly/Guitars International pre-sells
them, in other words, by the time he gets a new one it's already sold.
As far as marketing, Elliott does very, very little, in part this is
why he is not a well known name. He is scrupulously honest and a very
decent person. I'm not sure why you label him mercenary.
I have a long standing order with him for another guitar, but after
1992 I wanted to try different builders, and that has been quite a
journey. In the past 3 years Darren Hippner has built me 9 guitars, 3
of which I am keeping, and they are wonderful. So, I have an
agreement with my wife that I don't get the guitar from Jeff unless I
can just write a check for it. It will be in the $20,000 range, so
there are several reasons I hope I can get that guitar!
Andrew

Andrew Schulman

2007-02-07 05:30:35 UTC

Post by Dicerous
Andrew,
His open Harmonic bar design appears to be influenced by or a copy of
Jose Romanillos's open harmonic bar design.
His craftsmanship is outstanding.

Yes, he said Bouchet was also a big influence, and that even as far
back as Torres things like this were experimented with.

Where Jeff took things a step further was in the way he tweaked the
open harmonic bar design to stabilize the soundboard eliminating the
cracks which this design had produced previously, and in controlling
the sound, where before it had been a little wild and wooly, not in
all the previous guitars, but in many. You can hear this aspect in
the Bouchet that Stefano Grondona used to record on his CD: "Lo Cant
dels Aucells - Stefano Grondona plays 12 Historical Guitars"
http://www.finefretted.com/html/stefano_grondona.html

Andrew

rcspross

2007-02-08 19:33:12 UTC

Post by Dicerous
Andrew,
His open Harmonic bar design appears to be influenced by or a copy of
Jose Romanillos's open harmonic bar design.
His craftsmanship is outstanding.

Yes, he said Bouchet was also a big influence, and that even as far
back as Torres things like this were experimented with.
Where Jeff took things a step further was in the way he tweaked the
open harmonic bar design to stabilize the soundboard eliminating the
cracks which this design had produced previously, and in controlling
the sound, where before it had been a little wild and wooly, not in
all the previous guitars, but in many. You can hear this aspect in
the Bouchet that Stefano Grondona used to record on his CD: "Lo Cant
dels Aucells - Stefano Grondona plays 12 Historical Guitars"
http://www.finefretted.com/html/stefano_grondona.html
Andrew

Andrew,
Good luck on your business venture and
thanks for the link. One of these days I
hope to be able to visit the shop.
Regards,
Richard Spross

Benoît Meulle-Stef

2007-02-05 17:53:50 UTC

I think the sam. The guy have almost 0 marketing but he have amazing skills.
Ben
All the contrary of about 30 GM names that comes to my mind :-).

Post by Dicerous
Has anyone played on of his guitars? Is it just good marketing?

Yes. No.
Andrew

Andrew Schulman

2007-02-08 20:41:25 UTC