Marco Dall'Aquila - Ricercar #3

[Pamilearner]

Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT posted
a version of it and Alain sent me a score. I don't know if my
interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it was
fun to try it. "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".

[l***@deack.net]

Post by Pamilearner
http://youtu.be/mUw5iM-T8Tk
Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT posted
a version of it and Alain sent me a score.  I don't know if my
interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it was
fun to try it.  "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".

Once again, very nice... and we can see your hands better.

I wonder what some will say about those 'a' finger rest strokes? The
forward brush movement is not something talked about much here.

Nice voice separation too. The lines were clear and the imitations
had similar curved shapes with good forward direction while still
lingering long enough to enjoy.

Especially nice for such a short time. Thanks.

[Alain Reiher]

Post by Pamilearner
http://youtu.be/mUw5iM-T8Tk
Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT posted
a version of it and Alain sent me a score. I don't know if my
interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it was
fun to try it. "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".

Once again, very nice... and we can see your hands better.

I wonder what some will say about those 'a' finger rest strokes? The
forward brush movement is not something talked about much here.

Nice voice separation too. The lines were clear and the imitations
had similar curved shapes with good forward direction while still
lingering long enough to enjoy.

Especially nice for such a short time. Thanks.

I hope that an A finger appoyando is not something considered suspect in
this super free stroke era!
I like Ken's playing. Strong and clear.
The score, I just transposed the music in D major and put it on one staff.
The music source from which I made the transcription is available on Arthur
Ness site. (In F and on two staves)
Ken help me to work on the final copy by pointing at some mistakes I had
made. (I need practice!)

Alain

[Pamilearner]

Post by l***@deack.net

Post by Pamilearner
http://youtu.be/mUw5iM-T8Tk
Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT posted
a version of it and Alain sent me a score. I don't know if my
interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it was
fun to try it. "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".

Once again, very nice... and we can see your hands better.
 I wonder what some will say about those 'a' finger rest strokes? The
forward brush movement is not something talked about much here.
  Nice voice separation too. The lines were clear and the imitations
had similar curved shapes with good forward direction while still
lingering long enough to enjoy.
  Especially nice for such a short time. Thanks.
I hope that an A finger appoyando is not something considered suspect in
this super free stroke era!
I like Ken's playing. Strong and clear.
The score, I just transposed the music in D major and put it on one staff.
The music source from which I made the transcription is available on Arthur
Ness site. (In F and on two staves)
Ken help me to work on the final copy by pointing at some mistakes I had
made. (I need practice!)
Alain

Larry: It is great to hear your comments. I was not doing any of
those things consciously. I just played and just seemed "close
enough" to me on the second take. I like your phrase "... while still
lingering long enough to enjoy. ...". That really seems to encapsulate
the my state of mind at certain points. Thanks a lot for your input.

Alain: Thanks again for all the work on the score and the advice along
the way.

[Richard Yates]

Hello Alain,

Post by Alain Reiher
The score, I just transposed the music in D major and put it on one staff.
The music source from which I made the transcription is available on
Arthur Ness site. (In F and on two staves)
Ken help me to work on the final copy by pointing at some mistakes I had
made. (I need practice!)

I would be interested to see your version. There are always ambiguous
puzzles of voice leading when transcribing tablature, especially in the
broken style of this piece.

Richard Yates

[t***@googlemail.com]

Post by Richard Yates
Hello Alain,

Post by Alain Reiher
The score, I just transposed the music in D major and put it on one staff.
The music source from which I made the transcription is available on
ArthurNesssite. (In F and on two staves)
Ken help me to work on the final copy by pointing at some mistakes I had
made. (I need practice!)

I would be interested to see your version. There are always ambiguous
puzzles of voice leading when transcribing tablature, especially in the
broken style of this piece.
Richard Yates

I have just discovered the piece on Arthur Ness's website and will
attempt this one and La Traditora . Thanks to all for sharing

[Arthur Ness]

Now you should give <<La traditora>> a try. Marco composed a book of
settings of Venetian street songs, and this is one that many
especially enjoy. It's (as Paul O'Dette says) a romp'um, stomp'um
dance. Your transcription a minor third lower is quite appropriate in
fitting the music to guitar. You might get the fingerings from the
Italian tablature.

Band 22:
http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=2122329&style=classical&cart=681006049

That Ricercar No. 3 is so short, many repeat it. But I also like MT's
repeat of the second half. That makes very good sense formally. Bar
form as someone wikll doubtlesslky point out: ABB. O'Dette's
performance is Band 24. He makes more of the melody than
some who've posted examples here.

I'll be adding more Marco anon. He is really Francesco da Milano's
most important predecessor. And writes so idiomatically for lute.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
For the Marco scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================

"Alain Reiher" <***@telus.net> wrote in message news:Jhbrj.18331$***@edtnps90...
|
| <***@deack.net> wrote in message
| news:90e6796f-2cad-47f0-99f9-***@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
| On Feb 8, 6:20 pm, Pamilearner <***@yahoo.ca> wrote:
| > http://youtu.be/mUw5iM-T8Tk
| >
| > Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT
posted
| > a version of it and Alain sent me a score. I don't know if my
| > interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it
was
| > fun to try it. "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".
|
| Once again, very nice... and we can see your hands better.
|
| I wonder what some will say about those 'a' finger rest strokes? The
| forward brush movement is not something talked about much here.
|
| Nice voice separation too. The lines were clear and the imitations
| had similar curved shapes with good forward direction while still
| lingering long enough to enjoy.
|
| Especially nice for such a short time. Thanks.
|
| I hope that an A finger appoyando is not something considered
suspect in
| this super free stroke era!
| I like Ken's playing. Strong and clear.
| The score, I just transposed the music in D major and put it on one
staff.
| The music source from which I made the transcription is available on
Arthur
| Ness site. (In F and on two staves)
| Ken help me to work on the final copy by pointing at some mistakes I
had
| made. (I need practice!)
|
| Alain
|
|

[Alain Reiher]

I do play the A BB form as it is so short. Nonetheless, it's a real beauty.

Alain

Post by Arthur Ness
Now you should give <<La traditora>> a try. Marco composed a book of
settings of Venetian street songs, and this is one that many
especially enjoy. It's (as Paul O'Dette says) a romp'um, stomp'um
dance. Your transcription a minor third lower is quite appropriate in
fitting the music to guitar. You might get the fingerings from the
Italian tablature.
http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=2122329&style=classical&cart=681006049
That Ricercar No. 3 is so short, many repeat it. But I also like MT's
repeat of the second half. That makes very good sense formally. Bar
form as someone wikll doubtlesslky point out: ABB. O'Dette's
performance is Band 24. He makes more of the melody than
some who've posted examples here.
I'll be adding more Marco anon. He is really Francesco da Milano's
most important predecessor. And writes so idiomatically for lute.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================
|
| > http://youtu.be/mUw5iM-T8Tk
| >
| > Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT
posted
| > a version of it and Alain sent me a score. I don't know if my
| > interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it
was
| > fun to try it. "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".
|
| Once again, very nice... and we can see your hands better.
|
| I wonder what some will say about those 'a' finger rest strokes? The
| forward brush movement is not something talked about much here.
|
| Nice voice separation too. The lines were clear and the imitations
| had similar curved shapes with good forward direction while still
| lingering long enough to enjoy.
|
| Especially nice for such a short time. Thanks.
|
| I hope that an A finger appoyando is not something considered
suspect in
| this super free stroke era!
| I like Ken's playing. Strong and clear.
| The score, I just transposed the music in D major and put it on one
staff.
| The music source from which I made the transcription is available on
Arthur
| Ness site. (In F and on two staves)
| Ken help me to work on the final copy by pointing at some mistakes I
had
| made. (I need practice!)
|
| Alain
|
|

[John Nguyen]

Post by Pamilearner
http://youtu.be/mUw5iM-T8Tk
Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT posted
a version of it and Alain sent me a score.  I don't know if my
interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it was
fun to try it.  "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".

I really enjoy your playing. The light, scrisp drills are something to
die for! Thanks for posting.

John

[Pamilearner]

Post by John Nguyen

Post by Pamilearner
http://youtu.be/mUw5iM-T8Tk
Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT posted
a version of it and Alain sent me a score.  I don't know if my
interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it was
fun to try it.  "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".

I really enjoy your playing. The light, scrisp drills are something to
die for! Thanks for posting.
John

Hey thanks, John. It's a fun little piece. I guess in those days (c.
1500) the ornaments were supposed to be improvised but I did work
these out in advance. Cheers, Ken

[Arthur Ness]

That's nice. And the ornaments work on the repeats. Why not?
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
* Free Download of the Week from Classical Music Library:

*Strauss' _ Don Juan, Op. 20_

Performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra;
Sir Charles Mackerras, conductor.
Go to my web page and click on Alexander Street Press link:

http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================

"Pamilearner" <***@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:5707efb6-8a9d-403f-9c0a-***@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
http://youtu.be/mUw5iM-T8Tk

Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT posted
a version of it and Alain sent me a score. I don't know if my
interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it was
fun to try it. "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".

[Pamilearner]

AJN: Thanks for having that score on the net. Next time I'll try ABB
form on this.

That's nice.  And the ornaments work on the repeats.  Why not?
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
*Strauss' _ Don Juan, Op. 20_
Performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra;
Sir Charles Mackerras, conductor.
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================
Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT posted
a version of it and Alain sent me a score.  I don't know if my
interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it was
fun to try it.  "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".

[Guitarwhisperer]

AJN: Thanks for having that score on the net.  Next time I'll try ABB
form on this.

That's nice.  And the ornaments work on the repeats.  Why not?
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
*Strauss' _ Don Juan, Op. 20_
Performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra;
Sir Charles Mackerras, conductor.
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================
Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT posted
a version of it and Alain sent me a score.  I don't know if my
interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it was
fun to try it.  "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I can't veiw Youtubes from here so will have to see your performance
when I get back.
MT

[Carlos Barrientos]

But then, we know this, right?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/books/14dumb.html?em&ex=1203224400&en=9813e31206335cfb&ei=5087%0A

[Pamilearner]

Post by Guitarwhisperer

AJN: Thanks for having that score on the net.  Next time I'll try ABB
form on this.

That's nice.  And the ornaments work on the repeats.  Why not?
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
*Strauss' _ Don Juan, Op. 20_
Performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra;
Sir Charles Mackerras, conductor.
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================
Here's one I have been working on for a few weeks ever since MT posted
a version of it and Alain sent me a score.  I don't know if my
interpretation is close to the style for that time period but it was
fun to try it.  "Dall' à la Alain from snowy TO".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I can't veiw Youtubes from here so will have to see your performance
when I get back.
  MT- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

MT: I'm sure it will keep 'till you get back. Have a great time over
there!

[Richard Yates]

Here is a guitar version of the Ricercar for those that have followed the
discussion but do not have the score. Voice leading is different from Arthur
Ness', but in the broken style there are many palausible possibilities.
Light fingering is included.

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Ricercar3.pdf

Richard Yates

[Pamilearner]

Post by Richard Yates
Here is a guitar version of the Ricercar for those that have followed the
discussion but do not have the score. Voice leading is different from Arthur
Ness', but in the broken style there are many palausible possibilities.
Light fingering is included.
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Ricercar3.pdf
Richard Yates

Richard,
I feel this is very similar to the way I was hearing it. (I don't
know about playing though.:-)) Thanks for posting this.
-Ken

P.S. Should the last note in the first bar be an A instead of an F#?

[Richard Yates]

Post by Richard Yates
Here is a guitar version of the Ricercar for those that have followed the
discussion but do not have the score. Voice leading is different from Arthur
Ness', but in the broken style there are many plausible possibilities.
Light fingering is included.
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Ricercar3.pdf
Richard Yates
P.S. Should the last note in the first bar be an A instead of an F#?

Oops. You're right. Thanks. It is now corrected.

RY

[Tashi]

Post by Richard Yates
Here is a guitar version of the Ricercar for those that have followed the
discussion but do not have the score. Voice leading is different from Arthur
Ness', but in the broken style there are many palausible possibilities.
Light fingering is included.
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Ricercar3.pdf
Richard Yates

How is it there can be different versions of lute peice written in
tablature? It's all written out with the fingering and everything.
MT

[Richard Yates]

How is it there can be different versions of lute piece written in
tablature? It's all written out with the fingering and everything. MT

Tablature tells you where what strings to play and what fret to stop, but it
does not tell you how long the note should sound. That has to be inferred
from the tablature. This can be especially complicated when there is a
contrapuntal texture. Look at this graphic:

Loading Image...

The top staff is the tablature of one bar.

The second staff is how Arthur Ness transcribed it onto a grand staff.

The third staff is how the tablature would be transcribed literally, that is
without stopping any strings from sounding except when another note on the
same string was played.

The last staff is my interpretation of the voice leading. Different
transcribers may analyze it differently. The 'broken style' often imitates
or suggests through-composed counterpoint when it actually is not, leaving
lots of interpretation options open.

Richard Yates

[Arthur Ness]

Good morning, Richard!

Yes, quite a bit of variation is possible. I used the l.v. ties to
"show" the broken style in Marco's works. It is a regular feature in
his music. But the "broken style" doesn't really reoccur until the
style brisé of the 17th cenntury. This suggests to me that the broken
chords were usually improvised in the 16th century, and Marco was just
being more specific with his notation.

In No. 3 I also felt the notation is easier to read with the small
notes indicating the "melody" above the top line.

Alain Reiher has also made a transcription for guitar of Ricercar No.
3. I'll post it to my web page shortly. So there's still another
version. He also did a guitar transcription of Traditora No. 2 (Marco
did two settings).

You both did nice work with your transcriptions, and I would not have
a quarrel with anything you did.

By the way, quite a bit of Marco is available on CD. I really believe
he is the most important forerunner of the great Francesco da Milano.
Paul D'Dette on "Lute Music, Vol. 2" HCX 3957043 and Christopher
Wilson "Dall'Aquila/Da Crema: Lute Music" Naxos 8.550778. Both are
stunning performances imho.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
* Free Download of the Week from Classical Music Library:

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's_
Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor, Op. 23___
performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ronan O'Hora, piano;
James Judd,
conductor. More information about this piece is available on our
music blog <http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music>.

Go to my web page and click on Alexander Street Press link:

http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================

"Richard Yates" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message news:***@comcast.com...
| >How is it there can be different versions of lute piece written in
| >tablature? It's all written out with the fingering and everything.
MT
|
| Tablature tells you where what strings to play and what fret to
stop, but it
| does not tell you how long the note should sound. That has to be
inferred
| from the tablature. This can be especially complicated when there is
a
| contrapuntal texture. Look at this graphic:
|
| http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/TabTranscribe.jpg
|
| The top staff is the tablature of one bar.
|
| The second staff is how Arthur Ness transcribed it onto a grand
staff.
|
| The third staff is how the tablature would be transcribed literally,
that is
| without stopping any strings from sounding except when another note
on the
| same string was played.
|
| The last staff is my interpretation of the voice leading. Different
| transcribers may analyze it differently. The 'broken style' often
imitates
| or suggests through-composed counterpoint when it actually is not,
leaving
| lots of interpretation options open.
|
| Richard Yates
|
|

[Tashi]

Post by Richard Yates

How is it there can be different versions of lute piece written in
tablature?  It's all written out with the fingering and everything. MT

Tablature tells you where what strings to play and what fret to stop, but it
does not tell you how long the note should sound. That has to be inferred
from the tablature. This can be especially complicated when there is a
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/TabTranscribe.jpg
The top staff is the tablature of one bar.
The second staff is how Arthur Ness transcribed it onto a grand staff.
The third staff is how the tablature would be transcribed literally, that is
without stopping any strings from sounding except when another note on the
same string was played.
The last staff is my interpretation of the voice leading. Different
transcribers may analyze it differently. The 'broken style' often imitates
or suggests through-composed counterpoint when it actually is not, leaving
lots of interpretation options open.
Richard Yates

Yes that makes sense, I guess that's the way to do it, but I wouldn't
loose too much sleep over it. As strange as it may seem, I have no
problem reading directly from tablature. I doubt reading it from
musical notation over tablature matters more than a rats ass, as far
as the final result is concerned. Robert Barto reads directly from
tablature the Weiss Sonatas just fine. It simply takes some basic
musical apperciational skills.
MT

[Richard Yates]

Post by Tashi
Yes that makes sense, I guess that's the way to do it, but I wouldn't
loose too much sleep over it.<

I am sure you will not.

Post by Tashi
As strange as it may seem, I have no problem reading directly from
tablature.<

Nothing strange about it. Tablature requires less decoding and so is often
quicker to sight read.

Post by Tashi
I doubt reading it from musical notation over tablature matters more than
a rats ass, as far as the final result is concerned.<

There is no way that you could know that without having actually ever done
the comparative analysis.

Post by Tashi
Robert Barto reads directly from tablature the Weiss Sonatas just fine.<

You bet he does. And he has also done his homework, including lots of
transcriptions to analyze voice leading.

It simply takes some basic musical apperciational skills.<

I hope such wishful thinking is reassuring to you.

Richard Yates

[Tashi]

Post by Richard Yates

Post by Tashi
Yes that makes sense, I guess that's the way to do it, but I wouldn't
loose too much sleep over it.<

I am sure you will not.

Post by Tashi
As strange as it may seem, I have no problem reading directly from
tablature.<

Nothing strange about it. Tablature requires less decoding and so is often
quicker to sight read.

Only if you do it a lot, if you don't it's hard. I find musical
notation simple as well, and when it comes to 16th centuary lute
music, it's really pretty straight forward. If one needs to see the
voices written out perhaps one should take up another proffession.

Post by Richard Yates

Post by Tashi
I doubt reading it from musical notation over tablature matters more than
a rats ass, as far as the final result is concerned.<

There is no way that you could know that without having actually ever done
the comparative analysis.

Yea right!

Post by Richard Yates

Post by Tashi
Robert Barto reads directly from tablature the Weiss Sonatas just fine.<

You bet he does. And he has also done his homework, including lots of
transcriptions to analyze voice leading.

Well actually, Barto told me himself the reason he won't play
transcriptions on the lute (Bach) is so he dosen't have to deal with
for lack of a better word transcriptions. Weiss seem quite able to
understand the finer points of musical analyisis simply in tablature.
I think your theory works well for those who have little understanding
or intuition about music.
And another thing, you guys should quit calling 6 course lute music
played on 6 string guitar a Transcription.

MT

Post by Richard Yates

It simply takes some basic musical apperciational skills.<

I hope such wishful thinking is reassuring to you.

It's not wishful thinking it's a fact.
MT

Post by Richard Yates
Richard Yates

[l***@deack.net]

Post by Tashi
It's not wishful thinking it's a fact.
MT

He's baaaaaccckkkk!

[Tashi]

Post by l***@deack.net

Post by Tashi
It's not wishful thinking it's a fact.
MT

He's baaaaaccckkkk!

No I'm still in Kathmandu! However, I was a little sad to see you
have been posting again! Such a waste of talent.

MT

[Pamilearner]

Post by Tashi

Post by Richard Yates
Here is a guitar version of the Ricercar for those that have followed the
discussion but do not have the score. Voice leading is different from Arthur
Ness', but in the broken style there are many palausible possibilities.
Light fingering is included.
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Ricercar3.pdf
Richard Yates

How is it there can be different versions of lute peice written in
tablature?  It's all written out with the fingering and everything.
MT

I guess we still have to learn when to let go, as in - how long to
hold the notes. :-) Having it written out in standard notation
clarifies an interpretation of the piece.

I have a question for you or anyone. Most of the recordings I've heard
have a G for the first bass note of bar 18 (of RY's score), yet, the
tab and score on AJN's site clearly indicates an E there. Are there
different original sources for this piece?

Thx.

[Arthur Ness]

Dear Pami (is that your correct name?),

Are you certain you heard a G in measure 18, and not a splat? There
is just one source for Marco's No. 3, and that's a manuscript in the
Bavarian State Library. And the E/G cipher cannot be read because the
scribe dropped a glob of ink on it. I guess some performers think the
tablature number under the ink should be G (guitar transcription
pitch), but I prefer E.

There are lots of mistakes in lute tablatures, and with Marco I use
Italics for the ciphers, and Roman for ciphers I've corrected.

As for the ricercar, most lutenists play it twice, as you did. You
might try AB/A'B'B'. I like the repeated phrases at the end, because
they give a sense to the listener that the piece is about end. It's
such a beautiful piece that everyone wants to hear more of it. Marco
has such a sensitivity to harmonic color.

Of course in Marco's day, the piece was probably just played once,
because "ricercars" at that time served as preludes, and a number of
additional pieces would follow to make a kind of suite.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
* Free Download of the Week from Classical Music Library:

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's_
Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor, Op. 23___
performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ronan O'Hora, piano;
James Judd,
conductor. More information about this piece is available on our
music blog <http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music>.

Go to my web page and click on Alexander Street Press link:

http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================

Post by Tashi

Post by Richard Yates
Here is a guitar version of the Ricercar for those that have
followed the
discussion but do not have the score. Voice leading is different from Arthur
Ness', but in the broken style there are many palausible
possibilities.
Light fingering is included.
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Ricercar3.pdf
Richard Yates

How is it there can be different versions of lute peice written in
tablature? It's all written out with the fingering and everything.
MT

I guess we still have to learn when to let go, as in - how long to
hold the notes. :-) Having it written out in standard notation
clarifies an interpretation of the piece.

I have a question for you or anyone. Most of the recordings I've heard
have a G for the first bass note of bar 18 (of RY's score), yet, the
tab and score on AJN's site clearly indicates an E there. Are there
different original sources for this piece?

Thx.

[Pamilearner]

AJN:
Thanks for your input. I was certainly puzzled by the E/G problem.
Both Paul Odette and Chris Wilson seem to use the G.

Actually, I didn't repeat on my version but I will on my next try.
You are quite correct - it is a very beautiful piece.

Alain has already been busy with La Traditora as you know. I already
have a copy so that might come before another try at #33 for me but it
will take a while to get that fast and bouncy.

Thanks again,
Ken

I have actually left lots of electronic trails of bread crumbs with my
real name if it matters (and it probably doesn't).
http://pamilearner.tripod.com/

Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Pami (is that your correct name?),
Are you certain you heard a G in measure 18, and not a splat?  There
is just one source for Marco's No. 3, and that's a manuscript in the
Bavarian State Library.  And the E/G cipher cannot be read because the
scribe dropped a glob of ink on it.  I guess some performers think the
tablature number under the ink should be G (guitar transcription
pitch), but I prefer E.
There are lots of mistakes in lute tablatures, and with Marco I use
Italics for the ciphers, and Roman for ciphers I've corrected.
As for the ricercar, most lutenists play it twice, as you did.  You
might try AB/A'B'B'.  I like the repeated phrases at the end, because
they give a sense to the listener that the piece is about end. It's
such a beautiful piece that everyone wants to hear more of it. Marco
has such a sensitivity to harmonic color.
Of course in Marco's day, the piece was probably just played once,
because "ricercars" at that time served as preludes, and a number of
additional pieces would follow to make a kind of suite.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's_
Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor, Op. 23___
 performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ronan O'Hora, piano;
James Judd,
conductor. More information about this piece is available on our
music blog <http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music>.
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================

Post by Tashi

Post by Richard Yates
Here is a guitar version of the Ricercar for those that have followed the
discussion but do not have the score. Voice leading is different from Arthur
Ness', but in the broken style there are many palausible
possibilities.
Light fingering is included.
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Ricercar3.pdf
Richard Yates

How is it there can be different versions of lute peice written in
tablature? It's all written out with the fingering and everything.
MT

I guess we still have to learn when to let go, as  in - how long to
hold the notes. :-)  Having it written out in standard notation
clarifies an interpretation of the piece.
I have a question for you or anyone. Most of the recordings I've heard
have a G for the first bass note of bar 18 (of RY's score), yet, the
tab and score on AJN's site clearly indicates an E there.  Are there
different original sources for this piece?
Thx.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[Arthur Ness]

Hi, Ken!

I'm going to reconsider the G that Chris and Paul use. I still prefer
the E. It will take a while to get some bounce in La Traditora. But
it's really one of Marco's most popular pieces, so it should be a
worthwhile challenge.

pami learner? I got it now! Sometimes I'm a bit dense.<g>

Since you have both the Wilson and O'Dette Marco CDs, do you have any
favorite pieces that you'd like me to post? I have all of them
engraved with transcription and tablature (Italian).

Best wishes from Boston, Regards, Arthur.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
===================================

"Pamilearner" <***@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:5956e776-5dcb-4247-b011-***@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
AJN:
Thanks for your input. I was certainly puzzled by the E/G problem.
Both Paul Odette and Chris Wilson seem to use the G.

Actually, I didn't repeat on my version but I will on my next try.
You are quite correct - it is a very beautiful piece.

Alain has already been busy with La Traditora as you know. I already
have a copy so that might come before another try at #33 for me but it
will take a while to get that fast and bouncy.

Thanks again,
Ken

I have actually left lots of electronic trails of bread crumbs with my
real name if it matters (and it probably doesn't).
http://pamilearner.tripod.com/

Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Pami (is that your correct name?),
Are you certain you heard a G in measure 18, and not a splat? There
is just one source for Marco's No. 3, and that's a manuscript in the
Bavarian State Library. And the E/G cipher cannot be read because
the
scribe dropped a glob of ink on it. I guess some performers think
the
tablature number under the ink should be G (guitar transcription
pitch), but I prefer E.
There are lots of mistakes in lute tablatures, and with Marco I use
Italics for the ciphers, and Roman for ciphers I've corrected.
As for the ricercar, most lutenists play it twice, as you did. You
might try AB/A'B'B'. I like the repeated phrases at the end, because
they give a sense to the listener that the piece is about end. It's
such a beautiful piece that everyone wants to hear more of it. Marco
has such a sensitivity to harmonic color.
Of course in Marco's day, the piece was probably just played once,
because "ricercars" at that time served as preludes, and a number of
additional pieces would follow to make a kind of suite.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's_
Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor, Op. 23___
performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ronan O'Hora, piano;
James Judd,
conductor. More information about this piece is available on our
music blog <http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music>.
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go
to:http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================

Post by Tashi

Post by Richard Yates
Here is a guitar version of the Ricercar for those that have followed the
discussion but do not have the score. Voice leading is different from Arthur
Ness', but in the broken style there are many palausible
possibilities.
Light fingering is included.
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Ricercar3.pdf
Richard Yates

How is it there can be different versions of lute peice written in
tablature? It's all written out with the fingering and everything.
MT

I guess we still have to learn when to let go, as in - how long to
hold the notes. :-) Having it written out in standard notation
clarifies an interpretation of the piece.
I have a question for you or anyone. Most of the recordings I've heard
have a G for the first bass note of bar 18 (of RY's score), yet, the
tab and score on AJN's site clearly indicates an E there. Are there
different original sources for this piece?
Thx.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[Alain Reiher]

Post by Arthur Ness
Hi, Ken!
I'm going to reconsider the G that Chris and Paul use. I still prefer
the E. It will take a while to get some bounce in La Traditora. But
it's really one of Marco's most popular pieces, so it should be a
worthwhile challenge.
pami learner? I got it now! Sometimes I'm a bit dense.<g>
Since you have both the Wilson and O'Dette Marco CDs, do you have any
favorite pieces that you'd like me to post? I have all of them
engraved with transcription and tablature (Italian).
Best wishes from Boston, Regards, Arthur.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
===================================
Thanks for your input. I was certainly puzzled by the E/G problem.
Both Paul Odette and Chris Wilson seem to use the G.
Actually, I didn't repeat on my version but I will on my next try.
You are quite correct - it is a very beautiful piece.
Alain has already been busy with La Traditora as you know. I already
have a copy so that might come before another try at #33 for me but it
will take a while to get that fast and bouncy.
Thanks again,
Ken
I have actually left lots of electronic trails of bread crumbs with my
real name if it matters (and it probably doesn't).
http://pamilearner.tripod.com/

Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Pami (is that your correct name?),
Are you certain you heard a G in measure 18, and not a splat? There
is just one source for Marco's No. 3, and that's a manuscript in the
Bavarian State Library. And the E/G cipher cannot be read because
the
scribe dropped a glob of ink on it. I guess some performers think
the
tablature number under the ink should be G (guitar transcription
pitch), but I prefer E.
There are lots of mistakes in lute tablatures, and with Marco I use
Italics for the ciphers, and Roman for ciphers I've corrected.
As for the ricercar, most lutenists play it twice, as you did. You
might try AB/A'B'B'. I like the repeated phrases at the end, because
they give a sense to the listener that the piece is about end. It's
such a beautiful piece that everyone wants to hear more of it. Marco
has such a sensitivity to harmonic color.
Of course in Marco's day, the piece was probably just played once,
because "ricercars" at that time served as preludes, and a number of
additional pieces would follow to make a kind of suite.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's_
Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor, Op. 23___
performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ronan O'Hora, piano;
James Judd,
conductor. More information about this piece is available on our
music blog <http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music>.
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go
to:http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================

Post by Tashi

Post by Richard Yates
Here is a guitar version of the Ricercar for those that have followed the
discussion but do not have the score. Voice leading is different from Arthur
Ness', but in the broken style there are many palausible
possibilities.
Light fingering is included.
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Ricercar3.pdf
Richard Yates

How is it there can be different versions of lute peice written in
tablature? It's all written out with the fingering and everything.
MT

I guess we still have to learn when to let go, as in - how long to
hold the notes. :-) Having it written out in standard notation
clarifies an interpretation of the piece.
I have a question for you or anyone. Most of the recordings I've heard
have a G for the first bass note of bar 18 (of RY's score), yet, the
tab and score on AJN's site clearly indicates an E there. Are there
different original sources for this piece?
Thx.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Arthur, Would you have these by any chance?

1) Robert Ballard (vers 1575 - il fut "joueur de luth de la chambre du Roi"
sous Marie de Medicis et Louis XIII): Ballade; Allemande; Courante; Branle
de la cornemuse; Ballet des Insencez.

2) Francesco da Milano: Fantaisie en do Majeur; Fantaisie en sol Mineur
(Ricercar).

I received a request from my cousin who has an old MP by a lutenist called
Guy Robert (?) and he asked me about these titles.

Alain

P.S. I have found the Branle de la cornemuse and the Ballet des Insencez on
the darmouth site.

[Arthur Ness]

|
| Arthur, Would you have these by any chance?
|
| 1) Robert Ballard (vers 1575 - il fut "joueur de luth de la chambre
du Roi"
| sous Marie de Medicis et Louis XIII): Ballade; Allemande; Courante;
Branle
| de la cornemuse; Ballet des Insencez.

No, I don't have any Ballard. There is a collected edition in the
series Corpus des Luthistes français edited by Monique Rollin and
Andre Souris (iirc). It will have the pieces your are looking for.
Almost any good music library will have it. I think Goy has edited a
facsimile of one or bnoth of Ballard's solo books (publ.
Fuzeneau<sp?>)

| 2) Francesco da Milano: Fantaisie en do Majeur; Fantaisie en sol
Mineur
| (RicerHello, Alain!car).

I know about the Guy Robert LP. It's a very old one from 1975. I do
not have it, but if you can send me the two pieces (just a measure or
two from the beginning) I can probably identify the pieces for you.
And I have them on my other computer. Perhaps even in a guitar
arrangement. The one in sol mineur may be the most popular of his
works, No. 33 or 34. Both begin d-eb-d.

No. 33 d-eb-d | bb-c-d
No. 34 d-eb | d-g-a-bb-c | d.

Even the tablature should be easy to find if you have the piece
numbers in the HUP edition, which I can probably supply if I know
how the pieces begin. Francesco composed 95 ricercars/fantasias, so
that's quite a bit of "looking" if you don't know the piece numbers to
begin with.

Your cousin has an interestiung LP. Geneviève Thibault (Comtesse de
Chambure) wrote the liner notes. That's something! She must have
liked Guy.

I'll have your transcrpitons of Marco up soon, Alain. But tonight we
have a total eclipse of the moon, and I want to watch it. Auspicious
for Charlotte and me, because there was a full eclipse of the moon
when we were married.<g>

| I received a request from my cousin who has an old MP by a lutenist
called
| Guy Robert (?) and he asked me about these titles.
|
| Alain
|
| P.S. I have found the Branle de la cornemuse and the Ballet des
Insencez on
| the darmouth site.
|
|
|
Arthur.

[Alain Reiher]

Post by Arthur Ness
|
| Arthur, Would you have these by any chance?
|
| 1) Robert Ballard (vers 1575 - il fut "joueur de luth de la chambre
du Roi"
| sous Marie de Medicis et Louis XIII): Ballade; Allemande; Courante;
Branle
| de la cornemuse; Ballet des Insencez.
No, I don't have any Ballard. There is a collected edition in the
series Corpus des Luthistes français edited by Monique Rollin and
Andre Souris (iirc). It will have the pieces your are looking for.
Almost any good music library will have it. I think Goy has edited a
facsimile of one or bnoth of Ballard's solo books (publ.
Fuzeneau<sp?>)
| 2) Francesco da Milano: Fantaisie en do Majeur; Fantaisie en sol
Mineur
| (RicerHello, Alain!car).
I know about the Guy Robert LP. It's a very old one from 1975. I do
not have it, but if you can send me the two pieces (just a measure or
two from the beginning) I can probably identify the pieces for you.
And I have them on my other computer. Perhaps even in a guitar
arrangement. The one in sol mineur may be the most popular of his
works, No. 33 or 34. Both begin d-eb-d.
No. 33 d-eb-d | bb-c-d
No. 34 d-eb | d-g-a-bb-c | d.
Even the tablature should be easy to find if you have the piece
numbers in the HUP edition, which I can probably supply if I know
how the pieces begin. Francesco composed 95 ricercars/fantasias, so
that's quite a bit of "looking" if you don't know the piece numbers to
begin with.
Your cousin has an interestiung LP. Geneviève Thibault (Comtesse de
Chambure) wrote the liner notes. That's something! She must have
liked Guy.
I'll have your transcrpitons of Marco up soon, Alain. But tonight we
have a total eclipse of the moon, and I want to watch it. Auspicious
for Charlotte and me, because there was a full eclipse of the moon
when we were married.<g>
| I received a request from my cousin who has an old MP by a lutenist
called
| Guy Robert (?) and he asked me about these titles.
|
| Alain
|
| P.S. I have found the Branle de la cornemuse and the Ballet des
Insencez on
| the darmouth site.
|
|
|
Arthur.

Athur,

thanks a lot. I wrote my cousin to ask him to check the beginning of the two
da Milano ricercare.
Hopefully this will clarify things ...
I missed the lunar eclipse ... I'll have to wait another 30 years
apparently!

Alain

[Arthur Ness]

I have added Alain Reiher's guitar transcriptions of Ricercar No. 3
and Traditora No. 2 to my web site:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/id16.html

Thank you very much Alain. And thanks also to Richard Yates for his
transcription of Ricercar 3:
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Ricercar3.pdf

I also have Ricercar No. 3 in guitar TAB and will add that later.

Later I'll post some chanson intabulations, including "Ami souffrez"
and perhaps the most popular in Venice during Marco's lifetime, "Il
est bel et bon" by Passereau.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
* Free Download of the Week from Classical Music Library:

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's_
Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor, Op. 23___
performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ronan O'Hora, piano;
James Judd,
conductor. More information about this piece is available on our
music blog <http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music>.

Go to my web page and click on Alexander Street Press link:

http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================

[Pamilearner]

To AJN:
Thanks for the offer. I should really let someone who knows this stuff
better than I make the suggestion. (Alain or Richard, at least, have
been working on the transcriptions for guitar.)

If no one else has any other suggestions I would choose #62, "Amy
Souffrez". This has more to do with my amusement with the title than
musical considerations although it seems that it might be possible for
me to play that one. The title seems to evoke an image of someone
suffering - perhaps at being subjected daily to hours of plucked
string sounds for years on end. :-)

Cheers,
Ken

Post by Arthur Ness
Hi, Ken!
I'm going to reconsider the G that Chris and Paul use. I still prefer
the E. It will take a while to get some bounce in La Traditora.  But
it's really one of Marco's most popular pieces, so it should be a
worthwhile challenge.
pami learner?  I got it now!  Sometimes I'm a bit dense.<g>
Since you have both the Wilson and O'Dette Marco CDs, do you have any
favorite pieces that you'd like me to post?  I have all of them
engraved with transcription and tablature (Italian).
Best wishes from Boston, Regards, Arthur.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
===================================
Thanks for your input. I was certainly puzzled by the E/G problem.
Both Paul Odette and Chris Wilson seem to use the G.
Actually, I didn't repeat on my version but I will on my next try.
You are quite correct - it is a very beautiful piece.
Alain has already been busy with La Traditora as you know.  I already
have a copy so that might come before another try at #33 for me but it
will take a while to get that fast and bouncy.
Thanks again,
Ken
I have actually left lots of electronic trails of bread crumbs with my
real name if it matters (and it probably doesn't).http://pamilearner.tripod.com/

Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Pami (is that your correct name?),
Are you certain you heard a G in measure 18, and not a splat? There
is just one source for Marco's No. 3, and that's a manuscript in the
Bavarian State Library. And the E/G cipher cannot be read because
the
scribe dropped a glob of ink on it. I guess some performers think
the
tablature number under the ink should be G (guitar transcription
pitch), but I prefer E.
There are lots of mistakes in lute tablatures, and with Marco I use
Italics for the ciphers, and Roman for ciphers I've corrected.
As for the ricercar, most lutenists play it twice, as you did. You
might try AB/A'B'B'. I like the repeated phrases at the end, because
they give a sense to the listener that the piece is about end. It's
such a beautiful piece that everyone wants to hear more of it. Marco
has such a sensitivity to harmonic color.
Of course in Marco's day, the piece was probably just played once,
because "ricercars" at that time served as preludes, and a number of
additional pieces would follow to make a kind of suite.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's_
Piano Concerto No. 1 in B flat minor, Op. 23___
performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ronan O'Hora, piano;
James Judd,
conductor. More information about this piece is available on our
music blog <http://alexanderstreet.typepad.com/music>.
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go
to:http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================

Post by Tashi

Post by Richard Yates
Here is a guitar version of the Ricercar for those that have followed the
discussion but do not have the score. Voice leading is different from Arthur
Ness', but in the broken style there are many palausible
possibilities.
Light fingering is included.
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Ricercar3.pdf
Richard Yates

How is it there can be different versions of lute peice written in
tablature? It's all written out with the fingering and everything.
MT

I guess we still have to learn when to let go, as in - how long to
hold the notes. :-) Having it written out in standard notation
clarifies an interpretation of the piece.
I have a question for you or anyone. Most of the recordings I've heard
have a G for the first bass note of bar 18 (of RY's score), yet, the
tab and score on AJN's site clearly indicates an E there. Are there
different original sources for this piece?
Thx.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

[l***@gmail.com]

Amy souffrez :
Here is a translation of the first verse :
Amy, souffrez que je vous aime,
Et ne me tenes la rigueur
De me dire que vostre coeur
Porte pour moy douleur extreme.

Beloved, let me love you,
and be not harsh with me
by saying that your heart
feels for me much grief.
...
V.

Post by Pamilearner
If no one else has any other suggestions I would choose #62, "Amy
Souffrez".  This has more to do with my amusement with the title than
musical considerations although it seems that it might be possible for
me to play that one.  The title seems to evoke an image of someone
suffering - perhaps at being subjected daily to hours of plucked
string sounds for years on end.  :-)

[Pamilearner]

V.: Thanks for the explanation and translation. Either way, I think
I might get some mileage out of this piece.

By the way, V., I just saw your versions of La Traditora on YouTube.
Well done!

Post by l***@gmail.com
Amy, souffrez que je vous aime,
Et ne me tenes la rigueur
De me dire que vostre coeur
Porte pour moy douleur extreme.
Beloved, let me love you,
and be not harsh with me
by saying that your heart
feels for me much grief.
...
V.

Post by Pamilearner
If no one else has any other suggestions I would choose #62, "Amy
Souffrez".  This has more to do with my amusement with the title than
musical considerations although it seems that it might be possible for
me to play that one.  The title seems to evoke an image of someone
suffering - perhaps at being subjected daily to hours of plucked
string sounds for years on end.  :-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

[l***@gmail.com]

Post by Pamilearner
V.: Thanks for the explanation and translation. Either way, I think
I might get some mileage out of this piece.

;-) Thanks...
Val

Post by Pamilearner
By the way, V., I just saw your versions of La Traditora on YouTube.
Well done!

Post by l***@gmail.com
Amy, souffrez que je vous aime,
Et ne me tenes la rigueur
De me dire que vostre coeur
Porte pour moy douleur extreme.
Beloved, let me love you,
and be not harsh with me
by saying that your heart
feels for me much grief.
...
V.

Post by Pamilearner
If no one else has any other suggestions I would choose #62, "Amy
Souffrez". This has more to do with my amusement with the title than
musical considerations although it seems that it might be possible for
me to play that one. The title seems to evoke an image of someone
suffering - perhaps at being subjected daily to hours of plucked
string sounds for years on end. :-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -