Discussion:
Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural
(too old to reply)
Green Tea
2011-12-21 14:31:11 UTC
Permalink
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
Richard Jernigan
2011-12-21 16:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
Yeah, but wait until they try to make an image of the Virgin Mary on a
flour tortilla with their "abnormal" UV laser. That's what will
separate the men from the goofballs.

RNJ
David Raleigh Arnold
2011-12-21 17:04:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these conclusions
we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own conscience," he
said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-
shroud...
Post by Richard Jernigan
Yeah, but wait until they try to make an image of the Virgin Mary on a
flour tortilla with their "abnormal" UV laser. That's what will separate
the men from the goofballs.
RNJ
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: ***@gmail.com
Contact: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
JonLorPro
2011-12-21 20:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
and...
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
and then

On Dec 21, 12:0_6_ pm, David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
Giid thing you weren't thinking of a _12th_ grade textbook. :-D
David Raleigh Arnold
2011-12-22 14:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
and...
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
and then
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
Giid thing you weren't thinking of a _12th_ grade textbook. :-D
I don't know what caused the copies. Regards, daveA
--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: ***@gmail.com
Contact: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Green Tea
2011-12-22 15:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by JonLorPro
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
and...
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
and then
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
Giid thing you weren't thinking of a _12th_  grade textbook.  :-D
I don't know what caused the copies. Regards, daveA
--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Contact:http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
You probably just really wanted to get your point across........
Richard Jernigan
2011-12-22 17:04:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I don't know what caused the copies. Regards, daveA
--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Contact:http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
You probably just really wanted to get your point across........
Or maybe it was a supernatural burst of ultraviolet radiation.

RNJ
dsi1
2011-12-21 20:41:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these conclusions
we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own conscience," he
said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-
shroud...
Post by Richard Jernigan
Yeah, but wait until they try to make an image of the Virgin Mary on a
flour tortilla with their "abnormal" UV laser. That's what will separate
the men from the goofballs.
RNJ
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
The only one using the word "supernatural" is a guy named "Luigi." After
his interview, Luigi jumped into his crazy little go-cart and went off
to help his brother Mario save Princess Peach.
David Raleigh Arnold
2011-12-21 17:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these conclusions
we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own conscience," he
said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-
shroud...
Post by Richard Jernigan
Yeah, but wait until they try to make an image of the Virgin Mary on a
flour tortilla with their "abnormal" UV laser. That's what will separate
the men from the goofballs.
RNJ
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: ***@gmail.com
Contact: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2011-12-21 17:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these conclusions
we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own conscience," he
said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-
shroud...
Post by Richard Jernigan
Yeah, but wait until they try to make an image of the Virgin Mary on a
flour tortilla with their "abnormal" UV laser. That's what will separate
the men from the goofballs.
RNJ
"Scientists say"? What is that, a 3rd grade textbook?
--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: ***@gmail.com
Contact: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
John Sorell
2011-12-21 18:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he
said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists
-say-turin-shroud...
Yeah, but wait until they try to make an image of the Virgin
Mary on a
Post by Green Tea
flour tortilla with their "abnormal" UV laser. That's what will
separate the men from the goofballs.
RNJ
These folks seem to have it together...

http://tinyurl.com/dyh3utb

John
Steven Bornfeld
2011-12-21 20:16:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by Green Tea
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If
our
Post by Green Tea
Post by Green Tea
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he
said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists
-say-turin-shroud...
Yeah, but wait until they try to make an image of the Virgin
Mary on a
Post by Green Tea
flour tortilla with their "abnormal" UV laser. That's what will
separate the men from the goofballs.
RNJ
These folks seem to have it together...
http://tinyurl.com/dyh3utb
John
There are a few people I could buy that for!

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Steven Bornfeld
2011-12-21 20:14:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
Yeah, but wait until they try to make an image of the Virgin Mary on a
flour tortilla with their "abnormal" UV laser. That's what will
separate the men from the goofballs.
RNJ
What you got against:



Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Green Tea
2011-12-21 20:27:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
Yeah, but wait until they try to make an image of the Virgin Mary on a
flour tortilla with their "abnormal" UV laser. That's what will
separate the men from the goofballs.
RNJ
I ain't a christian........ but you fundamental atheists crack me up!
Richard Jernigan
2011-12-22 23:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
I ain't a christian........ but you fundamental atheists crack me up!
Where do you get the idea I am an atheist? I have never posted my
religious views on the internet, nor do I ever plan to.

RNJ
wollybird
2011-12-23 00:52:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by Green Tea
I ain't a christian........ but you fundamental atheists crack me up!
Where do you get the idea I am an atheist? I have never posted my
religious views on the internet, nor do I ever plan to.
RNJ
technically, everyone is an athiest.
I wonder if whether one belongs to a polytheistic religion one is less
of an atheist than others
Green Tea
2011-12-23 14:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by Green Tea
I ain't a christian........ but you fundamental atheists crack me up!
Where do you get the idea I am an atheist? I have never posted my
religious views on the internet, nor do I ever plan to.
RNJ
Why do you assume I was referring to you? I said "you fundamental
atheists" if you want to identify with that then that's up to you.
BTW, atheists are OK, I'm not knocking them........ but I do find it
amusing they have an equal and opposite knee jerk reaction to
religion, as do evangelicals......... I think both camps need to get
laid more often.........

Richard I don't know but I can only geuss your religious practice. I
think perhaps since you spent years living on a remote island in the
pacific you worship the volcano god of tiki taka?
Richard Jernigan
2011-12-23 18:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Richard I don't know but I can only geuss your religious practice.  I
think perhaps since you spent years living on a remote island in the
pacific you worship the volcano god of tiki taka?
No volcanos where I lived. Maximum elevation on that little spot of
coral, sand and coconut trees was about 8 feet above sea level. My
favorite among the Marshallese deities was Lorok the trickster spirit,
but people nowadays know very little about him. Almost everyone
belongs to one Christian denomination or another. Marshallese
Christmas is a hoot!

Another Christmas institution on the little island where I lived was
the ECCF Christmas Party. The island at the north end of Kwajalein
Atoll is Roi-Namur. The 80 or so American residents have been known as
Roi Rats since time immoral (sic). Every year the Rats assemble a fund
through NFL football pools, poker runs, the notorious sailing coconut
race, presided over by the Chief Nut, the Roi Rat Chili Cookoff,
attended by hundreds of Americans from Kwajalein Island down south,
etc. It used to come to maybe $15-20,000. This is the ECCF: Ennubirr
Children's Christmas Fund.

Ennubirr is the island three miles down the east reef where the
Marshallese workers on Roi live, together with their large,
financially dependent extended families. Maybe a thousand people live
on a tiny patch of coral, sand and palm trees, at least a third of
them children.

The Christmas season begins with the Army Post Commander coming up
from Kwajalein Island to light the Christmas tree. The church choirs
from Ennubirr sing a capella at the tree lighting ceremony. That is,
except for one year, when a particularly inept Colonel had pissed off
the Marshallese so badly that he and his entourage were left to light
the tree by themselves, while the Marhallese sang their hearts out for
the Rats over by the swimming pool.

A few days later essentially everybody from Ennubirr comes over to Roi-
Namur early in the morning for the all day Christmas party. For months
previously the ECCF Committee has bought presents by mail order, and
gotten together at wrapping parties. Mr. and Mrs. Santa Claus have
been selected and suitably costumed.

The 300 or 400 kids line up to meet Santa and get presents. Some of
the littlest ones are scared to death and cry, because they have never
seen a ri-belle (white person) up close before, much less a big fat
loud talking one in a red suit and white beard. But their parents and
big brothers and sisters and cousins hug them and comfort them, so it
comes out OK.

They get clothes, shoes, sweets, toys--you name it. Many of these kids
wouldn't have even a ball to play with if their mother or sibling
didn't make them one out of an intricately woven palm leaf.

Then there's a big feast put on by the Chow Hall. The Marshallese
women who work there have decorated the place with palm fronds,
blossoms and fruit from the jungle. Every square inch of every wall is
decorated, as well as the awning covered passage leading to the door.
So are the chow line, the salad bar and the tables with white table
cloths and baskets of flowers. It's so beautiful I get choked up just
thinking about it.

After Christmas Dinner everyone goes to the movie theater. It has a
roof, but no walls, so you can hear the sound of the constant surf
breaking on the reef. The Marshallese sing, the impromptu Rats choir
sings back to them, speeches are made. Meanwhile the kids are playing
on the grass outside with their new toys and wearing their new
clothes.

As the sun gets low over the west reef, the Marshallese head back home
across the lagoon. As the ferry and the small private boats recede,
you can hear the singing fading into the tropical night.

RNJ

It's off to my brother's place in the Hill Country for the gathering
of the clan. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy Hannukah, God Jul
and all rest, to everybody here.
Paul Magnussen
2011-12-21 17:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
What this amounts to is: "We, personally, can't explain it, so it must
be supernatural."

They used to say that about comets.
Green Tea
2011-12-22 05:09:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Magnussen
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
What this amounts to is: "We, personally, can't explain it, so it must
be supernatural."
They used to say that about comets.
They still don't know what a comet is......
Dick Cheney
2011-12-22 14:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
Post by Paul Magnussen
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
What this amounts to is: "We, personally, can't explain it, so it must
be supernatural."
They used to say that about comets.
They still don't know what a comet is......
Who is "they"?
Green Tea
2011-12-22 15:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Cheney
Post by Green Tea
Post by Paul Magnussen
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
What this amounts to is: "We, personally, can't explain it, so it must
be supernatural."
They used to say that about comets.
They still don't know what a comet is......
Who is "they"?
The Annunaki?
Lutemann
2011-12-22 16:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
Post by Paul Magnussen
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
What this amounts to is: "We, personally, can't explain it, so it must
be supernatural."
They used to say that about comets.
They still don't know what a comet is......
No one knows what electricity is either. In fact, all we really know
how to do is conjure. It's all magic.
Slogoin
2011-12-22 18:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
No one knows what electricity is either.
In absurdland we can say that about anything.
Post by Lutemann
In fact, all we really know
how to do is conjure.  It's all magic.
But the "magic" actually works unlike most of the others humans have
invented.
Lutemann
2011-12-22 20:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
No one knows what electricity is either.
  In absurdland we can say that about anything.
Post by Lutemann
In fact, all we really know
how to do is conjure.  It's all magic.
  But the "magic" actually works unlike most of the others humans have
invented.
I didn't say it didn't work, I just said we don't really understand
why it works. Religion, of course, is magic that doesn't work.
Matt Faunce
2011-12-22 21:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
I didn't say it didn't work, I just said we don't really understand
why it works.
See other response with all the Peirce quotes.
Post by Lutemann
Religion, of course, is magic that doesn't work.
For some people belief in God may be more amenable, than non-belief, to keeping spirits up when times are emotionally difficult, or for maintaining a charitable attitude even when wronged, etc. Or, someone might find the idea of God useful for fueling their hatred toward people different then they, which could be useful for selfish purposes. So, you can't say it doesn't work, for some people.

By amenable, I mean the desired result of their belief will be more readily accessible to them than if they try using the alternative.

Matt
Green Tea
2011-12-22 22:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by Lutemann
No one knows what electricity is either.
  In absurdland we can say that about anything.
Post by Lutemann
In fact, all we really know
how to do is conjure.  It's all magic.
  But the "magic" actually works unlike most of the others humans have
invented.
I didn't say it didn't work, I just said we don't really understand
why it works. Religion, of course, is magic that doesn't work.
So you believe in magic, but not religion..... that makes sense.
Slogoin
2011-12-22 23:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
I didn't say it didn't work,
I just said we don't really understand
why it works.
NNUTS. If you figure out why maths works please let us all know.
Post by Lutemann
Religion, of course, is magic that doesn't work.
That depends on what you are trying to do.
Lutemann
2011-12-24 20:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
I didn't say it didn't work,
I just said we don't really understand
why it works.
  NNUTS. If you figure out why maths works please let us all know.
Post by Lutemann
Religion, of course, is magic that doesn't work.
  That depends on what you are trying to do.
Well, if you are trying to do nothing, then religion works.
Matt Faunce
2011-12-22 20:41:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
Post by Lutemann
No one knows what electricity is either.
In absurdland we can say that about anything.
Post by Lutemann
In fact, all we really know
how to do is conjure.  It's all magic.
But the "magic" actually works unlike most of the others humans have
invented.
We know something is so because it affects us. The mystery comes from believing there is more to know. The magic comes from assuming there is an agent of change where that proposition is absurd, like assuming force is the agent causing acceleration. (see below)

C. S. Peirce, in How to Make Our Ideas Clear:

... Whether we ought to say that a force is an
acceleration, or that it causes an
acceleration, is a mere question of propriety
of language, which has no more to do with our
real meaning than the difference between the
French idiom 'Il fait froid' and its English
equivalent 'It is cold.' ...

[It was] stated that we understand precisely
the effect of force, but what force itself is
we do not understand! This is simply a
self-contradiction. The idea which the word
force excites in our mind has no other
function than to affect our actions, and these
actions can have no reference to force
otherwise than through its effects.
Consequently, if we know what the effects of
force are, we are acquainted with every fact
which is implied in saying that a force
exists, and there is nothing more to know. ...

So, what is "magic"? By one definition it's whatever phenomenon is beyond your comprehension. By another definition it's a word to point to what you think exists, but is really a result of the confusion in your mind. Peirce put it better:

One singular deception...which often occurs,
is to mistake the sensation produced by our
own unclearness of thought for a character of
the object we are thinking. Instead of
perceiving that the obscurity is purely
subjective, we fancy that we contemplate a
quality of the object which is essentially
mysterious; and if our conception be afterward
presented to us in a clear form we do not
recognize it as the same, owing to the absence
of the feeling of unintelligibility.

Peirce wrote the above in explaining what came to be known as the pragmatic maxim:

Consider what effects, which might conceivably
have practical bearing, we conceive the object
of our conception to have. Then, our
conception of these effects is the whole of
our conception of the object.

All quotes from, How to Make Our Ideas Clear:
http://www.peirce.org/writings/p119.html

Matt
Lutemann
2011-12-22 21:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Lutemann
No one knows what electricity is either.
  In absurdland we can say that about anything.
Post by Lutemann
In fact, all we really know
how to do is conjure.  It's all magic.
  But the "magic" actually works unlike most of the others humans have
invented.
We know something is so because it affects us. The mystery comes from believing there is more to know. The magic comes from assuming there is an agent of change where that proposition is absurd, like assuming force is the agent causing acceleration. (see below)
  ... Whether we ought to say that a force is an
  acceleration, or that it causes an
  acceleration, is a mere question of propriety
  of language, which has no more to do with our
  real meaning than the difference between the
  French idiom 'Il fait froid' and its English
  equivalent 'It is cold.' ...
  [It was] stated that we understand precisely
  the effect of force, but what force itself is
  we do not understand! This is simply a
  self-contradiction. The idea which the word
  force excites in our mind has no other
  function than to affect our actions, and these
  actions can have no reference to force
  otherwise than through its effects.
  Consequently, if we know what the effects of
  force are, we are acquainted with every fact
  which is implied in saying that a force
  exists, and there is nothing more to know. ...
  One singular deception...which often occurs,
  is to mistake the sensation produced by our
  own unclearness of thought for a character of
  the object we are thinking. Instead of
  perceiving that the obscurity is purely
  subjective, we fancy that we contemplate a
  quality of the object which is essentially
  mysterious; and if our conception be afterward
  presented to us in a clear form we do not
  recognize it as the same, owing to the absence
  of the feeling of unintelligibility.
  Consider what effects, which might conceivably
  have practical bearing, we conceive the object
  of our conception to have. Then, our
  conception of these effects is the whole of
  our conception of the object.
All quotes from, How to Make Our Ideas Clear:http://www.peirce.org/writings/p119.html
Matt
Matt says," Consequently, if we know what the effects of
force are, we are acquainted with every fact
which is implied in saying that a force
exists, and there is nothing more to know. ...

Glib, but not true. Knowlege is like an onion; there is always more
to know.
Matt Faunce
2011-12-22 22:16:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Lutemann
No one knows what electricity is either.
  In absurdland we can say that about anything.
Post by Lutemann
In fact, all we really know
how to do is conjure.  It's all magic.
  But the "magic" actually works unlike most of the others humans have
invented.
We know something is so because it affects us. The mystery comes from believing there is more to know. The magic comes from assuming there is an agent of change where that proposition is absurd, like assuming force is the agent causing acceleration. (see below)
  ... Whether we ought to say that a force is an
  acceleration, or that it causes an
  acceleration, is a mere question of propriety
  of language, which has no more to do with our
  real meaning than the difference between the
  French idiom 'Il fait froid' and its English
  equivalent 'It is cold.' ...
  [It was] stated that we understand precisely
  the effect of force, but what force itself is
  we do not understand! This is simply a
  self-contradiction. The idea which the word
  force excites in our mind has no other
  function than to affect our actions, and these
  actions can have no reference to force
  otherwise than through its effects.
  Consequently, if we know what the effects of
  force are, we are acquainted with every fact
  which is implied in saying that a force
  exists, and there is nothing more to know. ...
  One singular deception...which often occurs,
  is to mistake the sensation produced by our
  own unclearness of thought for a character of
  the object we are thinking. Instead of
  perceiving that the obscurity is purely
  subjective, we fancy that we contemplate a
  quality of the object which is essentially
  mysterious; and if our conception be afterward
  presented to us in a clear form we do not
  recognize it as the same, owing to the absence
  of the feeling of unintelligibility.
  Consider what effects, which might conceivably
  have practical bearing, we conceive the object
  of our conception to have. Then, our
  conception of these effects is the whole of
  our conception of the object.
All quotes from, How to Make Our Ideas Clear:http://www.peirce.org/writings/p119.html
Matt
Matt says," Consequently, if we know what the effects of
force are, we are acquainted with every fact
which is implied in saying that a force
exists, and there is nothing more to know. ...
Glib, but not true. Knowlege is like an onion; there is always more
to know.
There are two ways to interpret what he meant. 1. When he said "if we know what the effects of force are" he meant all the effects, including the effects of the effects, out to infinity. But, there is nothing beyond the effects to know. 2. There is nothing more to know about WHAT YOU MEANT when you used the word "force". There are infinite more things to know in relation to that. And you can always further refine your understanding of what force is. But the meaning you had in mind when you used a word, for the moment you used it, is finite, and contained in what you understood the effects were.

Matt
Steven Bornfeld
2011-12-21 20:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
"THAT'S NO SCIENTIST--THAT'S MY WIFE!!!

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
thomas
2011-12-22 00:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
"THAT'S NO SCIENTIST--THAT'S MY WIFE!!!
You're married to Pauly the Lizard?
Lutemann
2011-12-22 14:06:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
Carbon dating doesn't lie. The shoud is bullshit, the church is
bullshit and the tea party is bullshit. I do thank the tea party in
advance for losing th election.
Green Tea
2011-12-22 15:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
Carbon dating doesn't lie.  The shoud is bullshit, the church is
bullshit and the tea party is bullshit.  I do thank the tea party in
advance for losing th election.
They carbon dated only a small piece that was exposed to a fire. In
the meantime, I'm going to stop and reflect on your words of wisdom,
that everything is bullshit.
JonLorPro
2011-12-27 13:45:36 UTC
Permalink
some late thoughts compiled...
Post by Green Tea
Carbon dating doesn't lie. The shroud is bullshit, the church is
bullshit and the tea party is bullshit.
I'm going to stop and reflect on your words of wisdom,
that everything is bullshit.
Accepting your extrapolation from the specificity of Lutemann's
comment, whereby you inflate it into a sweeping statement about
everything, what emerges is a more cynical version of the wisdom
expressed by this sage of the sixties...

http://tinyurl.com/7wfmb98

Douglas Seth
Post by Green Tea
Dec 22, 10:15 am
So I guess you aren't celebrating Christmas then, right?
Celebrating Christmas these days is not contingent on belief. I
empathize with Lutemann's feelings- An honest examination from the
literalist viewpoint burgeoning in our society would reveal "Holy
Bible" to be better spelled as "Wholly Babble"- so much for
literalism. But that does not stop me from having celebrated
Christmas. For all the execrable history of that most human of
institutions, the church, it is yet responsible also for the
preservation and fostering of much that is good about our Western
culture, without which, for instance, there would be no subject
matter for this newgroup, among other things. And, there's a lot
about Christmas that, if isn't true, would be nice if it _were_
true. Maybe some of it is, in a "Yes, Virginia, there is..." sense-
but I'm sure, for example, there are very few, even among fundmantal
miraculists, who believe that the fable recounted in the following
link is an actual account. I still like it, in spite of it's
vulnerability to the charge of sappy ridiculossity. This is a bit late
out of the gate, but, Merry Christmas anyway:

http://tinyurl.com/87rc846

Matt Faunce
Dec 22, 3:41 pm
Post by Green Tea
Post by Lutemann
No one knows what electricity is either.
In absurdland we can say that about anything.
Post by Lutemann
In fact, all we really know
how to do is conjure. It's all magic.
But the "magic" actually works unlike most of the others humans have
invented.
We know something is so because it affects us. The mystery comes from believing there is more to know.
Perhaps the tenacity of religio-mysticism in modern times is
precipitated of the collective discernment that there are four basic
elements to the universe- matter, space, energy, and time- and as for
the inquiry as to what any one of those elements may be, well, the
answer is that any one of these is that which is measurable in terms
of the other three. It all becomes a self-referential tautology, a
vicious circle. Some can't accept that this is the way it is- to them
it's frustrating, an unsatisfactory dead -end, or at least comes off
as a big practical joke. And, of course, the leap os, that a joke
implies the existence behind it all of a jokester.

Thass all for now... a bit of early Spring cleaning.

Douglas Seth
2011-12-22 15:15:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
Carbon dating doesn't lie.  The shoud is bullshit, the church is
bullshit and the tea party is bullshit.  I do thank the tea party in
advance for losing th election.
So I guess you aren't celebrating Christmas then, right?
dsi1
2011-12-22 22:59:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
So I guess you aren't celebrating Christmas then, right?
Christmas ain't just for Christians anymore. It's really popular in the
land where Shintoism and Buddhism reins, rains, reigns. This year, I
I'll have a Japan style dinner - sushi, and of course, KFC. Those
buckets are kind of pricy but what the heck, Xmas comes only once a
year. Meri Kurisumasu!


wollybird
2011-12-23 00:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by Douglas Seth
So I guess you aren't celebrating Christmas then, right?
Christmas ain't just for Christians anymore. It's really popular in the
land where Shintoism and Buddhism reins, rains, reigns. This year, I
I'll have a Japan style dinner - sushi, and of course, KFC. Those
buckets are kind of pricy but what the heck, Xmas comes only once a
year. Meri Kurisumasu!
http://youtu.be/WkvQ5jznJAc
christmas predates christianity, as with most christian holidays. I
don't know if I could do KFC though
dsi1
2011-12-23 01:50:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by wollybird
Post by dsi1
Post by Douglas Seth
So I guess you aren't celebrating Christmas then, right?
Christmas ain't just for Christians anymore. It's really popular in the
land where Shintoism and Buddhism reins, rains, reigns. This year, I
I'll have a Japan style dinner - sushi, and of course, KFC. Those
buckets are kind of pricy but what the heck, Xmas comes only once a
year. Meri Kurisumasu!
http://youtu.be/WkvQ5jznJAc
christmas predates christianity, as with most christian holidays. I
don't know if I could do KFC though
Christmas should be a secular holiday, although I don't think we should
be dancing naked about a fire celebrating the return of the sun god either.

We should instead call it Sanderstag to commemorate the day that Harland
Sanders first thought of the idea to cook his chicken under pressure,
thus giving hope to people everywhere that their chicken will
forevermore be juicy and delish and that coleslaw shall never perish
from the Earth, even after being packed and shipped in giant drums. Yes,
wollbybird, there is a KFC.
wollybird
2011-12-23 03:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by wollybird
Post by dsi1
Post by Douglas Seth
So I guess you aren't celebrating Christmas then, right?
Christmas ain't just for Christians anymore. It's really popular in the
land where Shintoism and Buddhism reins, rains, reigns. This year, I
I'll have a Japan style dinner - sushi, and of course, KFC. Those
buckets are kind of pricy but what the heck, Xmas comes only once a
year. Meri Kurisumasu!
http://youtu.be/WkvQ5jznJAc
christmas predates christianity, as with most christian holidays. I
don't know if I could do KFC though
Christmas should be a secular holiday, although I don't think we should
be dancing naked about a fire celebrating the return of the sun god either.
We should instead call it Sanderstag to commemorate the day that Harland
Sanders first thought of the idea to cook his chicken under pressure,
thus giving hope to people everywhere that their chicken will
forevermore be juicy and delish and that coleslaw shall never perish
from the Earth, even after being packed and shipped in giant drums. Yes,
wollbybird, there is a KFC.
well, it's no worse than the local Norwegians, I guess:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Scandinavians-Strange-Holiday-Lutefisk-Tradition.html?c=y&page=3

the last time I did KFC was 2001, right before 9/11. We went to the
park (I remember I brought the real Wollybird with me). We each got a
cup of popcorn chicken. Within the hour, my stomach became a cauldron
of percolating grease, bile and HCl.
Damn that Col. Saunders, I spit on his grave.
I'm sticking with my Celtic/Germanic roots and drinking beer and
watching football.
dsi1
2011-12-23 17:08:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by wollybird
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Scandinavians-Strange-Holiday-Lutefisk-Tradition.html?c=y&page=3
My step-mother, a woman from Göteborg, told me about how they prepared
dried cod by soaking it for days in stuff that I use to clear out
clogged drains. It didn't make much sense to me even though, like most
Scandinavians, she's a "strictly the facts" kind of person and not prone
to embellishing or flights of fancy i.e., the opposite of me. She said
that because the dish takes a while to prepare, it's reserved mostly for
special occasions. Special indeed.
Post by wollybird
the last time I did KFC was 2001, right before 9/11. We went to the
park (I remember I brought the real Wollybird with me). We each got a
cup of popcorn chicken. Within the hour, my stomach became a cauldron
of percolating grease, bile and HCl.
Damn that Col. Saunders, I spit on his grave.
I'm sticking with my Celtic/Germanic roots and drinking beer and
watching football.
My guess is that popcorn chicken is some sort of waste product that
comes from chicken processing. That's what I like to think anyway. I
kinda like their bowl item which has popcorn chicken sprinkled on top of
mashed potatoes. Evidently, Patton Oswalt thinks they're pretty good too:


wollybird
2011-12-23 17:43:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Scandinavians-Strange-Hol...
My step-mother, a woman from Göteborg, told me about how they prepared
dried cod by soaking it for days in stuff that I use to clear out
clogged drains. It didn't make much sense to me even though, like most
Scandinavians, she's a "strictly the facts" kind of person and not prone
to embellishing or flights of fancy i.e., the opposite of me. She said
that because the dish takes a while to prepare, it's reserved mostly for
special occasions. Special indeed.
the last time I did KFC was 2001, right before 9/11. We went to the
park (I remember I brought the real Wollybird with me). We each got a
cup of popcorn chicken. Within the hour, my stomach became a cauldron
of percolating grease, bile and HCl.
Damn that Col. Saunders, I spit on his grave.
I'm sticking with my Celtic/Germanic roots and drinking beer and
watching football.
My guess is that popcorn chicken is some sort of waste product that
comes from chicken processing. That's what I like to think anyway. I
kinda like their bowl item which has popcorn chicken sprinkled on top of
http://youtu.be/tfan5MacmsI
I think it's what's left at the bottom of the fryers at the end of the
week. At any rate, it was a traumatic experience that ended in a
technicolor burp
Green Tea
2011-12-23 18:54:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by wollybird
Post by dsi1
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Scandinavians-Strange-Hol...
My step-mother, a woman from Göteborg, told me about how they prepared
dried cod by soaking it for days in stuff that I use to clear out
clogged drains. It didn't make much sense to me even though, like most
Scandinavians, she's a "strictly the facts" kind of person and not prone
to embellishing or flights of fancy i.e., the opposite of me. She said
that because the dish takes a while to prepare, it's reserved mostly for
special occasions. Special indeed.
the last time I did KFC was 2001, right before 9/11. We went to the
park (I remember I brought the real Wollybird with me). We each got a
cup of popcorn chicken. Within the hour, my stomach became a cauldron
of percolating grease, bile and HCl.
Damn that Col. Saunders, I spit on his grave.
I'm sticking with my Celtic/Germanic roots and drinking beer and
watching football.
My guess is that popcorn chicken is some sort of waste product that
comes from chicken processing. That's what I like to think anyway. I
kinda like their bowl item which has popcorn chicken sprinkled on top of
http://youtu.be/tfan5MacmsI
I think it's what's left at the bottom of the fryers at the end of the
week. At any rate, it was a traumatic experience that ended in a
technicolor burp
Sounds a lot like most of your blurps here.........
Richard Jernigan
2011-12-23 05:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Christmas should be a secular holiday, although I don't think we should
be dancing naked about a fire celebrating the return of the sun god either.
Of course it should not be mandatory to do so, but why the hell should
we not be dancing naked around a fire, celebrating the return of the
sun?

RNJ
Green Tea
2011-12-23 14:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by dsi1
Christmas should be a secular holiday, although I don't think we should
be dancing naked about a fire celebrating the return of the sun god either.
Of course it should not be mandatory to do so, but why the hell should
we not be dancing naked around a fire, celebrating the return of the
sun?
RNJ
Exactly so!
dsi1
2011-12-23 17:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by dsi1
Christmas should be a secular holiday, although I don't think we should
be dancing naked about a fire celebrating the return of the sun god either.
Of course it should not be mandatory to do so, but why the hell should
we not be dancing naked around a fire, celebrating the return of the
sun?
It could happen if the republican's vision for American becomes a
reality. :-)
Post by Richard Jernigan
RNJ
Cactus Wren
2011-12-23 18:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by dsi1
Christmas should be a secular holiday, although I don't think we should
be dancing naked about a fire celebrating the return of the sun god either.
Of course it should not be mandatory to do so, but why the hell should
we not be dancing naked around a fire, celebrating the return of the
sun?
It could happen if the republican's vision for American becomes a
reality. :-)
Post by Richard Jernigan
RNJ
The Republican version of that scenario is that we have to pay large
corporations with well-paid executives for the firewood, flint, and
air used to create that fire. Which would suck... except I don't even
really know how to make a fire. But I'm still against it. The paying
for the flint and air part, I mean.
dsi1
2011-12-23 21:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cactus Wren
The Republican version of that scenario is that we have to pay large
corporations with well-paid executives for the firewood, flint, and
air used to create that fire. Which would suck... except I don't even
really know how to make a fire. But I'm still against it. The paying
for the flint and air part, I mean.
The good news is that with the republicans in charge, a back-to-nature
and the land movement will become popular, with a new sense of
self-reliance and resourcefulness instilled into the American people
once more. The bad news is that we'll all be homeless. :-)
Slogoin
2011-12-23 21:02:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cactus Wren
The Republican version of that scenario
is that we have to pay large corporations
with well-paid executives for the firewood,
flint, and air used to create that fire.
The reality is that nobody has a clue how a technological society
really works because we've never had one before. We are babies when it
comes to understanding ourselves and still in an infantile information
age of framing ideas in terms of us versus them.

More people are moving all over this globe than ever before. This is
not your father's technology and it no longer belongs to just some
countries. The US is going to have to grow up and learn they are not
the center of the universe.
Cactus Wren
2011-12-23 22:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cactus Wren
The Republican version of that scenario
is that we have to pay large corporations
with well-paid executives for the firewood,
flint, and air used to create that fire.
  The reality is that nobody has a clue how a technological society
really works because we've never had one before. We are babies when it
comes to understanding ourselves and still in an infantile information
age of framing ideas in terms of us versus them.
  More people are moving all over this globe than ever before. This is
not your father's technology and it no longer belongs to just some
countries. The US is going to have to grow up and learn they are not
the center of the universe.
I guess it's a new law of physics, that technological change is
responsible for all actions now occurring on Earth, and we may as well
just atomize ourselves, give up all group-affiliation, religion, and
non-maths culture, and turn the other cheek.
JPD
2011-12-24 20:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cactus Wren
The Republican version of that scenario
is that we have to pay large corporations
with well-paid executives for the firewood,
flint, and air used to create that fire.
  The reality is that nobody has a clue how a technological society
really works because we've never had one before. We are babies when it
comes to understanding ourselves and still in an infantile information
age of framing ideas in terms of us versus them.
  More people are moving all over this globe than ever before. This is
not your father's technology and it no longer belongs to just some
countries. The US is going to have to grow up and learn they are not
the center of the universe.
+1
Green Tea
2011-12-23 05:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by Douglas Seth
So I guess you aren't celebrating Christmas then, right?
Christmas ain't just for Christians anymore. It's really popular in the
land where Shintoism and Buddhism reins, rains, reigns. This year, I
I'll have a Japan style dinner - sushi, and of course, KFC. Those
buckets are kind of pricy but what the heck, Xmas comes only once a
year. Meri Kurisumasu!
http://youtu.be/WkvQ5jznJAc
My Thai wife ( Buddhist) made me buy tons of Christmas lights, she
thinks it's great......... as I'm writing this we are getting lots of
snow, first time she has ever seen snow, she is so excited...... I
don't think she even knows what Christmas is, and I'm not going to
tell her....... since it's a non Christian holiday (originally) it
fits in well with Buddhist traditions, as long as you don't introduce
Christ into the picture....... Buddhist wish fulfilling tree, the
Bodhi tree...... etc. The Buddha was very fond of trees....... today
is the beginning of the days getting longer.

KFC, is really big in Bangkok, only the wealthy people eat
there....... I couldn't believe it. I told my wife only poor people
eat at KFC in America........ she understands now.......
thomas
2011-12-23 06:24:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
My Thai wife ( Buddhist) made me buy tons of Christmas lights, she
thinks it's great......... as I'm writing this we are getting lots of
snow, first time she has ever seen snow, she is so excited......  I
don't think she even knows what Christmas is, and I'm not going to
tell her....... since it's a non Christian holiday (originally)  it
fits in well with Buddhist traditions, as long as you don't introduce
Christ into the picture.......
Christ isn't really the problem with xtianity. Jesus was one of the
great moral philosophers, right up there in the Big Three with Buddha
and Lao Tzu. If all you have to do to be a xtian is to follow Jesus's
teachings, then I could get on board.

It's all the magical thinking that subsequent doofuses have attached
to Jesus's teachings that screwed up xtianity for intelligent people.
Slogoin
2011-12-23 11:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas
It's all the magical thinking that
subsequent doofuses have attached
to Jesus's teachings that screwed
up xtianity for intelligent people.
The followers always mess up the message, because they are followers.
Green Tea
2011-12-23 14:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas
It's all the magical thinking that
subsequent doofuses have attached
to Jesus's teachings that screwed
up xtianity for intelligent people.
  The followers always mess up the message, because they are followers.
Great Boddhisattvas, teach for the benefit of sentient beings, whether
their name is Buddha, Krishna, or Christ. There is much benefit to
humanity. The followers aren't so much the problem, it is those that
politicalize religion to fit with their evil intentions. Constantine,
and George Bush both come to mind.
Green Tea
2011-12-23 14:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas
Post by Green Tea
My Thai wife ( Buddhist) made me buy tons of Christmas lights, she
thinks it's great......... as I'm writing this we are getting lots of
snow, first time she has ever seen snow, she is so excited......  I
don't think she even knows what Christmas is, and I'm not going to
tell her....... since it's a non Christian holiday (originally)  it
fits in well with Buddhist traditions, as long as you don't introduce
Christ into the picture.......
Christ isn't really the problem with xtianity. Jesus was one of the
great moral philosophers, right up there in the Big Three with Buddha
and Lao Tzu. If all you have to do to be a xtian is to follow Jesus's
teachings, then I could get on board.
It's all the magical thinking that subsequent doofuses have attached
to Jesus's teachings that screwed up xtianity for intelligent people.
Well then, I agree.
Cactus Wren
2011-12-23 18:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas
Post by Green Tea
My Thai wife ( Buddhist) made me buy tons of Christmas lights, she
thinks it's great......... as I'm writing this we are getting lots of
snow, first time she has ever seen snow, she is so excited......  I
don't think she even knows what Christmas is, and I'm not going to
tell her....... since it's a non Christian holiday (originally)  it
fits in well with Buddhist traditions, as long as you don't introduce
Christ into the picture.......
Christ isn't really the problem with xtianity. Jesus was one of the
great moral philosophers, right up there in the Big Three with Buddha
and Lao Tzu. If all you have to do to be a xtian is to follow Jesus's
teachings, then I could get on board.
It's all the magical thinking that subsequent doofuses have attached
to Jesus's teachings that screwed up xtianity for intelligent people.
It's possible that mercy or pity on other people or groups of people
did not arise as a moral system until Jesus. Although I can't escape
my own era, that sure seems a nice idea.
Green Tea
2011-12-23 19:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cactus Wren
Post by thomas
Post by Green Tea
My Thai wife ( Buddhist) made me buy tons of Christmas lights, she
thinks it's great......... as I'm writing this we are getting lots of
snow, first time she has ever seen snow, she is so excited......  I
don't think she even knows what Christmas is, and I'm not going to
tell her....... since it's a non Christian holiday (originally)  it
fits in well with Buddhist traditions, as long as you don't introduce
Christ into the picture.......
Christ isn't really the problem with xtianity. Jesus was one of the
great moral philosophers, right up there in the Big Three with Buddha
and Lao Tzu. If all you have to do to be a xtian is to follow Jesus's
teachings, then I could get on board.
It's all the magical thinking that subsequent doofuses have attached
to Jesus's teachings that screwed up xtianity for intelligent people.
It's possible that mercy or pity on other people or groups of people
did not arise as a moral system until Jesus.  Although I can't escape
my own era, that sure seems a nice idea.
Actually the idea of compassion or mercy, came from the Buddha 500
years before Christ.
Cactus Wren
2011-12-23 22:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
Post by Cactus Wren
Post by thomas
Post by Green Tea
My Thai wife ( Buddhist) made me buy tons of Christmas lights, she
thinks it's great......... as I'm writing this we are getting lots of
snow, first time she has ever seen snow, she is so excited......  I
don't think she even knows what Christmas is, and I'm not going to
tell her....... since it's a non Christian holiday (originally)  it
fits in well with Buddhist traditions, as long as you don't introduce
Christ into the picture.......
Christ isn't really the problem with xtianity. Jesus was one of the
great moral philosophers, right up there in the Big Three with Buddha
and Lao Tzu. If all you have to do to be a xtian is to follow Jesus's
teachings, then I could get on board.
It's all the magical thinking that subsequent doofuses have attached
to Jesus's teachings that screwed up xtianity for intelligent people.
It's possible that mercy or pity on other people or groups of people
did not arise as a moral system until Jesus.  Although I can't escape
my own era, that sure seems a nice idea.
Actually the idea of compassion or mercy, came from the Buddha 500
years before Christ.
Damn, God didn't do anything!? :)
Green Tea
2011-12-25 04:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cactus Wren
Post by Green Tea
Post by Cactus Wren
Post by thomas
Post by Green Tea
My Thai wife ( Buddhist) made me buy tons of Christmas lights, she
thinks it's great......... as I'm writing this we are getting lots of
snow, first time she has ever seen snow, she is so excited......  I
don't think she even knows what Christmas is, and I'm not going to
tell her....... since it's a non Christian holiday (originally)  it
fits in well with Buddhist traditions, as long as you don't introduce
Christ into the picture.......
Christ isn't really the problem with xtianity. Jesus was one of the
great moral philosophers, right up there in the Big Three with Buddha
and Lao Tzu. If all you have to do to be a xtian is to follow Jesus's
teachings, then I could get on board.
It's all the magical thinking that subsequent doofuses have attached
to Jesus's teachings that screwed up xtianity for intelligent people.
It's possible that mercy or pity on other people or groups of people
did not arise as a moral system until Jesus.  Although I can't escape
my own era, that sure seems a nice idea.
Actually the idea of compassion or mercy, came from the Buddha 500
years before Christ.
Damn, God didn't do anything!? :)
Which God?
wollybird
2011-12-25 18:30:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cactus Wren
Post by Green Tea
Post by Cactus Wren
Post by thomas
Post by Green Tea
My Thai wife ( Buddhist) made me buy tons of Christmas lights, she
thinks it's great......... as I'm writing this we are getting lots of
snow, first time she has ever seen snow, she is so excited......  I
don't think she even knows what Christmas is, and I'm not going to
tell her....... since it's a non Christian holiday (originally)  it
fits in well with Buddhist traditions, as long as you don't introduce
Christ into the picture.......
Christ isn't really the problem with xtianity. Jesus was one of the
great moral philosophers, right up there in the Big Three with Buddha
and Lao Tzu. If all you have to do to be a xtian is to follow Jesus's
teachings, then I could get on board.
It's all the magical thinking that subsequent doofuses have attached
to Jesus's teachings that screwed up xtianity for intelligent people.
It's possible that mercy or pity on other people or groups of people
did not arise as a moral system until Jesus.  Although I can't escape
my own era, that sure seems a nice idea.
Actually the idea of compassion or mercy, came from the Buddha 500
years before Christ.
Damn, God didn't do anything!? :)
he made it innate
http://www.aol.com/video/study-rats-show-each-other-compassion-and-empathy/517224835/
Lutemann
2011-12-24 20:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas
Post by Green Tea
My Thai wife ( Buddhist) made me buy tons of Christmas lights, she
thinks it's great......... as I'm writing this we are getting lots of
snow, first time she has ever seen snow, she is so excited......  I
don't think she even knows what Christmas is, and I'm not going to
tell her....... since it's a non Christian holiday (originally)  it
fits in well with Buddhist traditions, as long as you don't introduce
Christ into the picture.......
Christ isn't really the problem with xtianity. Jesus was one of the
great moral philosophers, right up there in the Big Three with Buddha
and Lao Tzu. If all you have to do to be a xtian is to follow Jesus's
teachings, then I could get on board.
It's all the magical thinking that subsequent doofuses have attached
to Jesus's teachings that screwed up xtianity for intelligent people.
True, Thomas. If you really want to understand Christianity, one
should look at the early Christians about whom a lot is known. They
would have made Marx blush.. Here were the rules: 1) no one should
gather more wealth they needed for basic survival, 2) everyone who
can, should be productive, but no technolgy should be used. 3) anyone
who needed help should be helped. The Christianity of today bears
absolutely no relationship to the original ideas. I assume that any
fat-assed millionaires like Huckabee would have thrown off the
reservation.
dsi1
2011-12-23 16:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
Post by dsi1
Post by Douglas Seth
So I guess you aren't celebrating Christmas then, right?
Christmas ain't just for Christians anymore. It's really popular in the
land where Shintoism and Buddhism reins, rains, reigns. This year, I
I'll have a Japan style dinner - sushi, and of course, KFC. Those
buckets are kind of pricy but what the heck, Xmas comes only once a
year. Meri Kurisumasu!
http://youtu.be/WkvQ5jznJAc
My Thai wife ( Buddhist) made me buy tons of Christmas lights, she
thinks it's great......... as I'm writing this we are getting lots of
snow, first time she has ever seen snow, she is so excited...... I
don't think she even knows what Christmas is, and I'm not going to
tell her....... since it's a non Christian holiday (originally) it
fits in well with Buddhist traditions, as long as you don't introduce
Christ into the picture....... Buddhist wish fulfilling tree, the
Bodhi tree...... etc. The Buddha was very fond of trees....... today
is the beginning of the days getting longer.
KFC, is really big in Bangkok, only the wealthy people eat
there....... I couldn't believe it. I told my wife only poor people
eat at KFC in America........ she understands now.......
Most times it's better to let people keep their illusions. My dad used
to get a bucket of KFC with the fixings for not a lot of money and it
was all good. A dad could bring that meal home for the family and he
felt like a hero. These days, I feel like a schmuck because the chicken
pieces are cut in an unpleasant manner and the food ain't worth the
money. Mostly I go there in hopes it'll be like it was when I was a kid
- I got some illusions of my own.
JonLorPro
2011-12-23 21:10:49 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 22, 5:59 pm, dsi1 <***@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
.>
...Christmas...This year, I'll have a Japan style dinner -
sushi, and of course, KFC. Those
buckets are kind of pricy but what the heck...
Dec 23, 11:42 am
...My dad used
to get a bucket of KFC with the fixings for
not a lot of money and it was all good....
Here's the guitar relevence whereby this sub-thread s no longer OT
(which abbreviation, it should be pointed out given the general tenor
of the discussion, does not mean Old Testament) ....

http://tinyurl.com/jbufa
...the last time I did KFC was 2001...
Within the hour, my stomach became a cauldron
of percolating grease, bile and HCl.
Make it positive- catalog it for future inspiration! Ya pay the dues
to play the blues- perhaps the progression of that sort of experience
can be discerned as having generated this musical rendering (No, there
are no farts involved)...

http://tinyurl.com/dk44oa
dsi1
2011-12-23 23:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
.>
...Christmas...This year, I'll have a Japan style dinner -
sushi, and of course, KFC. Those
buckets are kind of pricy but what the heck...
Dec 23, 11:42 am
...My dad used
to get a bucket of KFC with the fixings for
not a lot of money and it was all good....
Here's the guitar relevence whereby this sub-thread s no longer OT
(which abbreviation, it should be pointed out given the general tenor
of the discussion, does not mean Old Testament) ....
http://tinyurl.com/jbufa
I love that guy. He doesn't do nearly enough pretty stuff though. Most
of his playing makes me want to kill... kill... kill! Well, kill
chickens at least. Then it makes me want to fry them up and stick them
in a bucket.

OTOH, Scientists say Buckethead is supernatural and I'm fairly certain
that they're on to something.
Post by JonLorPro
...the last time I did KFC was 2001...
Within the hour, my stomach became a cauldron
of percolating grease, bile and HCl.
Make it positive- catalog it for future inspiration! Ya pay the dues
to play the blues- perhaps the progression of that sort of experience
can be discerned as having generated this musical rendering (No, there
are no farts involved)...
http://tinyurl.com/dk44oa
wollybird
2011-12-23 23:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
.>
...Christmas...This year, I'll have a Japan style dinner -
sushi, and of course, KFC. Those
buckets are kind of pricy but what the heck...
Dec 23, 11:42 am
...My dad used
to get a bucket of KFC with the fixings for
not a lot of money and it was all good....
Here's the guitar relevence whereby this sub-thread s no longer OT
(which abbreviation, it should be pointed out given the general tenor
of the  discussion, does not mean Old Testament)  ....
http://tinyurl.com/jbufa
...the last time I did KFC was 2001...
Within the hour, my stomach became a cauldron
of percolating grease, bile and HCl.
Make it positive-  catalog it for future inspiration!  Ya pay the dues
to play the blues-  perhaps the progression of that sort of experience
can be discerned as having generated this musical rendering (No, there
are no farts involved)...
http://tinyurl.com/dk44oa
bet that dude's got some greasy hair under that bucket
JPD
2011-12-24 20:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
Here's the guitar relevence whereby this sub-thread s no
longer OT
http://tinyurl.com/jbufa
Tasty!
thomas
2011-12-25 03:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
.>
...Christmas...This year, I'll have a Japan style dinner -
sushi, and of course, KFC. Those
buckets are kind of pricy but what the heck...
Dec 23, 11:42 am
...My dad used
to get a bucket of KFC with the fixings for
not a lot of money and it was all good....
Here's the guitar relevence whereby this sub-thread s no longer OT
(which abbreviation, it should be pointed out given the general tenor
of the  discussion, does not mean Old Testament)  ....
http://tinyurl.com/jbufa
...the last time I did KFC was 2001...
Within the hour, my stomach became a cauldron
of percolating grease, bile and HCl.
Make it positive-  catalog it for future inspiration!  Ya pay the dues
to play the blues-  perhaps the progression of that sort of experience
can be discerned as having generated this musical rendering (No, there
are no farts involved)...
http://tinyurl.com/dk44oa
Guitar doesn't get more classical than Buckethead.
Charlie
2011-12-22 14:37:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
If one believes in god, isn't everythig, de facto, supernatural?

Charlie
Green Tea
2011-12-22 15:11:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Post by Green Tea
A statement by lead researcher, Dr Paolo Di Lazzaro, said: "If our
results prompt a philosophical or theological debate, these
conclusions we'll leave to the experts; to each person's own
conscience," he said.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud...
If one believes in god, isn't everythig, de facto, supernatural?
Charlie
"Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment."
-- Rumi
Matt Faunce
2011-12-22 21:06:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Green Tea
Post by Charlie
If one believes in god, isn't everythig, de facto, supernatural?
Charlie
Or conversely, if one doesn't believe in god, isn't everything natural. Since we're all looking at the same phenomena, do believers and nonbelievers believe essentially the same thing about phenomena but use different words? I say, Yes.
Post by Green Tea
"Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment."
-- Rumi
Beautiful! Thank you!

Cleverness is a mundane craft; bewilderment is the artist's palette. This is my answer to Doug Seth's question in the other thread. I spent the last few years working on my craft. My goal for 2012 is to buy bewilderment.

Matt
Richard Jernigan
2011-12-22 23:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Since we're all looking at the same phenomena, do believers and nonbelievers >believe essentially the same thing about phenomena but use different words? >I say, Yes.
Matt
If you include either human behavior or the theory of evolution within
the realm of phenomena, then I say, "No."

RNJ
Matt Faunce
2011-12-23 01:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Since we're all looking at the same phenomena, do believers and nonbelievers >believe essentially the same thing about phenomena but use different words? >I say, Yes.
Matt
If you include either human behavior or the theory of evolution within
the realm of phenomena, then I say, "No."
RNJ
I was talking about what is necessarily believed by being a believer in God or atheist. Not all believers believe Jesus rode a dinosaur to work everyday--that's not necessarily included in being a believer. The necessary disagreements aren't with with phenomena as they happen, but with ascribing names to causes. But, all we KNOW about causes is from current phenomena, or memory of recent phenomena.

The reason I spoke up here is because I don't think believing in God is necessarily a mistake. (Plenty of mistakes are made on both sides.)

I think the necessary differences between theism and atheism are similar to the differences in a physicist thinking of space as being flat or curved. (See my quotes from Kip Thorne, link below.) It's one of preference, based on what you think is more amenable to you reaching your goals. Either can work, and both are essentially the same thing.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.classical.guitar/_mlOtYhB8xI/mQE8A3YZ_gQJ

Personally, when it comes to religion, I'm a switch hitter.

Matt
Richard Jernigan
2011-12-23 05:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Richard Jernigan
Since we're all looking at the same phenomena, do believers and nonbelievers >believe essentially the same thing about phenomena but use different words? >I say, Yes.
Matt
If you include either human behavior or the theory of evolution within
the realm of phenomena, then I say, "No."
RNJ
I was talking about what is necessarily believed by being a believer in God or atheist. Not all believers believe Jesus rode a dinosaur to work everyday--that's not necessarily included in being a believer. The necessary disagreements aren't with with phenomena as they happen, but with ascribing names to causes. But, all we KNOW about causes is from current phenomena, or memory of recent phenomena.
The reason I spoke up here is because I don't think believing in God is necessarily a mistake. (Plenty of mistakes are made on both sides.)
I think the necessary differences between theism and atheism are similar to the differences in a physicist thinking of space as being flat or curved. (See my quotes from Kip Thorne, link below.) It's one of preference, based on what you think is more amenable to you reaching your goals. Either can work, and both are essentially the same thing.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.classical.guitar/_mlOtYhB8x...
Personally, when it comes to religion, I'm a switch hitter.
Matt
When I mentioned the theory of evolution, I wasn't thinking of "young
earth" creationists. What I was thinking of was the widely prevalent
scientific attitude that evolution arises from natural selection
choosing among essentially random events, and the general theist
attitude that evolution may occur, but is controlled by a personal God
or Gods.

When I mentioned human behavior, I was thinking specifically of
attitudes toward morality. The theist believes morality is the proper
human response to divine law, while the atheist believes there is no
such thing as divine law.

I am quite content for people to adopt whichever view suits them best,
as long as they don't try to impose it on me or others, or believe
that their beliefs entitle them to mistreat other people.

RNJ
Richard Jernigan
2011-12-23 05:29:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Richard Jernigan
Since we're all looking at the same phenomena, do believers and nonbelievers >believe essentially the same thing about phenomena but use different words? >I say, Yes.
Matt
If you include either human behavior or the theory of evolution within
the realm of phenomena, then I say, "No."
RNJ
I was talking about what is necessarily believed by being a believer in God or atheist. Not all believers believe Jesus rode a dinosaur to work everyday--that's not necessarily included in being a believer. The necessary disagreements aren't with with phenomena as they happen, but with ascribing names to causes. But, all we KNOW about causes is from current phenomena, or memory of recent phenomena.
The reason I spoke up here is because I don't think believing in God is necessarily a mistake. (Plenty of mistakes are made on both sides.)
I think the necessary differences between theism and atheism are similar to the differences in a physicist thinking of space as being flat or curved. (See my quotes from Kip Thorne, link below.) It's one of preference, based on what you think is more amenable to you reaching your goals. Either can work, and both are essentially the same thing.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.classical.guitar/_mlOtYhB8x...
Personally, when it comes to religion, I'm a switch hitter.
Matt
When I mentioned the theory of evolution, I wasn't thinking of "young
earth" creationists. What I was thinking of was the widely prevalent
scientific attitude that evolution arises from impersonal natural
selection
choosing among essentially random events, and the contrasting general
theist
attitude that evolution may occur, but is controlled by a personal
God
or Gods.

When I mentioned human behavior, I was thinking specifically of
attitudes toward morality. The theist believes morality is the proper
human response to divine law, while the atheist believes there is no
such thing as divine law.

The theist KNOWS there are causes beyond those implied by current
phenomena or memories of recent phenomena. Your pragmatic definition
of knowledge defines away the theist's faith.

I'm not defending either the theist position or the atheist one. I'm
just pointing them out. I am quite content for people to adopt
whichever view suits them best, as long as they don't try to impose it
on me or others, or believe that their beliefs entitle them to
mistreat other people.

RNJ
Richard Jernigan
2011-12-23 05:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Richard Jernigan
Since we're all looking at the same phenomena, do believers and nonbelievers >believe essentially the same thing about phenomena but use different words? >I say, Yes.
Matt
If you include either human behavior or the theory of evolution within
the realm of phenomena, then I say, "No."
RNJ
I was talking about what is necessarily believed by being a believer in God or atheist. Not all believers believe Jesus rode a dinosaur to work everyday--that's not necessarily included in being a believer. The necessary disagreements aren't with with phenomena as they happen, but with ascribing names to causes. But, all we KNOW about causes is from current phenomena, or memory of recent phenomena.
Matt
When I mentioned the theory of evolution, I wasn't thinking of "young
earth" creationists. What I was thinking of was the widely prevalent
scientific attitude that evolution arises from impersonal natural
selection choosing among essentially random events, and the
contrasting general
theist attitude that evolution may occur, but is controlled by a
personal
God or Gods.

When I mentioned human behavior, I was thinking specifically of
attitudes toward morality. The theist believes morality is the proper
human response to divine law, while the atheist believes there is no
such thing as divine law.

The theist KNOWS there are causes beyond those implied by current
phenomena or memories of recent phenomena. Your pragmatic definition
of knowledge defines away the theist's faith.

I'm not defending either the theist position or the atheist one. I'm
just pointing them out. I am quite content for people to adopt
whichever view suits them best, as long as they don't try to impose
it
on me or others, or believe that their beliefs entitle them to
mistreat other people.

RNJ
Slogoin
2011-12-23 11:18:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
as long as they don't try to impose it
on me or others, or believe that their
beliefs entitle them to mistreat other people.
There's the rub. How is that supposed to work with public policy
issues like abortion?
Richard Jernigan
2011-12-23 16:24:41 UTC
Permalink
  There's the rub. How is that supposed to work with public policy
issues like abortion?
It doesn't. But if someone has a political agenda I disagree with,
that arises from their religious belief--or lack thereof, I think the
response should be political, not the imposition of an opposing belief
system. I think that's what the authors of the First Amendment to the
US Constitution had in mind.

My admiration of the Founding Fathers stems from the fact that many
had a profound understanding of human nature, but did not fall into
cynicism.

RNJ
Matt Faunce
2011-12-25 16:52:00 UTC
Permalink
It's a big subject. I like to intellectually parse out things like faith, belief, knowledge, etc. But in real life I mostly respond to what is good and what isn't, regardless of the intellectual wrappings. The intellectual side mostly serves the purpose of keep me from falling into stupid pit-falls, but it's interesting in its own right.

I air my thoughts here partly to see if someone can help me understand better, and partly to see if my thoughts are organized enough to put into words. Richard, your idea of "personal" vs. "impersonal" above does get to the heart of the matter. My first course of thought, in response, was to consider the Buddhist skandhas. And then "what is morality?" ... I still haven't figured out why Charles Peirce was such a realist, something he attributes to reasoning. I come across as a nominalist, but there is a sentiment in me that hopes the realism of Peirce, the Vedantists, and Buddhists is the right way. (They are all similar.) Realism, for me, still seems as much a leap of faith as believing in God. Intellectually, I stop before that crevice. Emotionally, I often make the jump.

Merry Christmas.

Matt
Matti Partonen
2011-12-22 20:20:12 UTC
Permalink
"Green Tea" wrote in message news:422904f1-ffb9-4993-a89e-***@p41g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
....

It appears that others have already produced similar images using only natural means. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin :

“According to the art historian Nicholas Allen the image on the shroud was formed by a photographic technique in the 13th century. Allen maintains that techniques already available before the 14th century—e.g., as described in the Book of Optics, which was at just that time translated from Arabic to Latin—were sufficient to produce primitive photographs, and that people familiar with these techniques would have been able to produce an image as found on the shroud. To demonstrate this, he successfully produced photographic images similar to the shroud using only techniques and materials available at the time the shroud was made. He described his results in his PhD thesis, in papers published in several science journals, and in a book.”


Matti P.
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