Discussion:
A Farewell
(too old to reply)
Angelo Gilardino
2004-10-08 09:39:02 UTC
Permalink
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations.
The time has come for me to go away from here. And I do.

AG
David Kilpatrick
2004-10-08 11:31:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations.
The time has come for me to go away from here. And I do.
Your generosity and public spirit here will be missed if you do. What
you are doing is allowing half a dozen opinionated and argumentative
individuals to drive you away from many hundreds of others who can
benefit from what you have to offer. Since much of that is offered free,
it's a loss to the great majority, caused by a small minority.

David
Edward Bridge
2004-10-08 13:12:42 UTC
Permalink
AG, I sorry to say but your _resignations at rmcg _ is decline !

question: why is it, musician here can tear a part another musician playing
or their cd , a luthier will say they don't like another luthier guitar but
a composer can't say shit about another composer ?

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations.
The time has come for me to go away from here. And I do.
AG
Klaus Heim
2004-10-08 14:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
AG, I sorry to say but your _resignations at rmcg _ is decline !
question: why is it, musician here can tear a part another musician playing
or their cd , a luthier will say they don't like another luthier guitar but
a composer can't say shit about another composer ?
I never saw Angelo's comments on other composers as uttered by a composer,
but rather as comments by one of the most knowledgeable scholars of guitar
history and repertoire. His many books and articles on these topics are
proof enough of this. That as such, an evaluation of the given topic cannot
be avoided and is at times desired, must be obvious. To suggest Angelo makes
these comments to elevate his own compositions is nothing more than
calculated malignancy. I sure hope Angelo continues to publish his (sharp)
remarks on inferior repertoire, as well as his humble comments when he
encounters a real masterpiece.

Klaus
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-08 14:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
AG, I sorry to say but your _resignations at rmcg _ is decline !
question: why is it, musician here can tear a part another musician playing
or their cd , a luthier will say they don't like another luthier guitar but
a composer can't say shit about another composer ?
I don't think that anyone here objects to *objective* criticism. It's
*subjective criticism* with a presumptuous authority, that inevitably
provokes the response that the critic is trying to profit at someone
else's expense. What was Stravinsky thinking of when he asked why it was
that, whenever he heard a bad piece of new music, it turned out to be by
Villa Lobos? Was Stravinsky's music better, or was it simply different?
Was Stravinsky's so insecure about his own abilities that he needed to
stoop to such idle spite? Was this admirable? Did he stop to consider
how that remark might make him appear?

Yes, we enjoy these little solecisms of the great composers: they give
us an insight into their character, although probably not the kind of
insight that the composer might have preferred. And of course they
should be free to make whatever comments they want, but that isn't the
point.

Objective criticism compares like with like, not like with unlike.
Professional composers, like professional guitarists, need a huge
passion if they are to succeed in their aims, but that passion doesn't
necessarily incline them to an objective criticism of other composers.
In recognition of this, they will often make the effort to exercise
great restraint in criticising other composers, alive or dead. They
believe in their music enough to avoid any danger of polluting its
reception with petty remarks about other composers.

As Roman said, most composers can find something useful or valuable to
learn from other composers. I would like to know how Regino Sainz de la
Maza could create such a perfect little piece as his Zapateado - not, by
the way an arrangement, but a composition (it isn't a flamenco
'zapateado' but something more in the tradition of the
violinist/composer, Pablo Sarasate). Stravinsky himself said: "Steal
from everyone except from yourself." Most composers, like other
artistes, develop initially by imitation and some even continue in that
way, transmuting all influences into their own individual style.

Angelo Gilardino and I have disagreed on many subjects in the past. It
doesn't bother me, but it appears to bother him. As David Caswell has
said, he's intolerant of disagreement. AG has contributed some great
postings to this group, but let's not be naive: as DC has implied,
'there is no such thing as a free lunch'.

I certainly agree with you that it will be a great pity if AG stops
posting here. But if he decides to stay or to return, I hope it will be
with more tolerance and sense of humour towards those who disagree with
him. For my part, I bear him no ill will whatever.

Sarn
Matanya Ophee
2004-10-08 17:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
I don't think that anyone here objects to *objective* criticism. It's
*subjective criticism* with a presumptuous authority, that inevitably
provokes the response that the critic is trying to profit at someone
else's expense.
Could not agree with you more. On principle. In particular, your
accusation that Angelo can possibly profit from an opinion about
Regino is, as Klaus said below, plain malignancy. There is no such
thing as _objective_ criticism. We are all driven by our own
aesthetical and emotional makeup and we say what we say subjectively.
All the time. Angelo, did, you did, and I do. To assign ulterior
economic motivation to an opinion about the music of a dead composer,
is nothing short malevolent stupidity. Would Angelo stand to profit
from a bad opinion of the music of, let's say, Graupner, Varlet,
Hummel or Delius?

Not any more than you would profit from casting a shadow on the
reputation of a colleague.
Post by Sarn Dyer
What was Stravinsky thinking of when he asked why it was
that, whenever he heard a bad piece of new music, it turned out to be by
Villa Lobos? Was Stravinsky's music better, or was it simply different?
Was Stravinsky's so insecure about his own abilities that he needed to
stoop to such idle spite? Was this admirable? Did he stop to consider
how that remark might make him appear?
Now, let's see. A cute little quote which appears in umpteen on-line
quotations compendiums. But did Stravinsky really say that? and under
what circumstances?

One of the largest libraries in the US of Stravinsky material, is
right here in my house, where one the World's leading Stravinsky
scholars, my wife, lives. I would not waste her time on such nonsense,
but I did spend myself a good half an hour looking through the indexes
of some 20 books by Stravinsky, on Stravinsky and by Robert Craft. No
mention of Villa-Lobos.

The point I am trying to make here is not that my search was complete.
Far from it. But in all likelihood, this was a private remark made by
Stravinsky, in a private setting, like in a conversation with someone,
and which reported by a third party. IOW, hearsay.

To use this quote as anything signifying one composer's PUBLIC opinion
of another, is nothing short of ignorance. And to use it as a whip to
damage the reputation of a colleague is doubly reprehensible.

I would be happy to stand corrected, should SD provide the precise
source for the citation and show me that this was something Stravinsky
said publicly.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Tyl Ulenspiegl
2004-10-08 22:50:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
To assign ulterior
economic motivation to an opinion about the music of a dead composer,
is nothing short malevolent stupidity. Would Angelo stand to profit
from a bad opinion of the music of, let's say, Graupner, Varlet,
Hummel or Delius?
Why not? 4 names off the boat of music history means more space for himself.
RT
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-09 00:52:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tyl Ulenspiegl
Post by Matanya Ophee
To assign ulterior
economic motivation to an opinion about the music of a dead composer,
is nothing short malevolent stupidity. Would Angelo stand to profit
from a bad opinion of the music of, let's say, Graupner, Varlet,
Hummel or Delius?
Why not? 4 names off the boat of music history means more space for himself.
RT
Well, exactly, Roman. If I have accused Angelo Gilardino of anything it
is of taking the foolish risk of just such an accusation. What drives
him to take that risk? Why does he make totally odious comparisons
between the music of F. Moreno Torroba and Gershwin? Gershwin! Why does
he write off South American composers or F. Tárrega? So infra dig, so
unjust to his own creative achievements.

One of the guitar's greatest riches is the unique diversity of its music
but it seems that some find this very hard to accept, a threat to some
kind of obscure classical continuity that has scarcely existed in the
history of the instrument.

Why is this unique diversity so hard for some to accept?

SD
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
2004-10-09 17:30:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by Tyl Ulenspiegl
Post by Matanya Ophee
To assign ulterior
economic motivation to an opinion about the music of a dead composer,
is nothing short malevolent stupidity. Would Angelo stand to profit
from a bad opinion of the music of, let's say, Graupner, Varlet,
Hummel or Delius?
Why not? 4 names off the boat of music history means more space for himself.
RT
Well, exactly, Roman. If I have accused Angelo Gilardino of anything it
is of taking the foolish risk of just such an accusation. What drives
him to take that risk? Why does he make totally odious comparisons
between the music of F. Moreno Torroba and Gershwin? Gershwin!
Watch it! ;-)

Steve (JHS 166, George Gershwin Junior High School, class of '66)


Why does
Post by Sarn Dyer
he write off South American composers or F. Tárrega? So infra dig, so
unjust to his own creative achievements.
One of the guitar's greatest riches is the unique diversity of its music
but it seems that some find this very hard to accept, a threat to some
kind of obscure classical continuity that has scarcely existed in the
history of the instrument.
Why is this unique diversity so hard for some to accept?
SD
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-09 18:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Watch it! ;-)
Steve (JHS 166, George Gershwin Junior High School, class of '66)
No reflection on the Great George, just disbelief that anyone would
compare his composing with that of FMT! (Hope you had a jazzy school
song at GGJHS, or are school songs more of a British tradition?)

Sarn
Steven Bornfeld
2004-10-10 02:19:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Watch it! ;-)
Steve (JHS 166, George Gershwin Junior High School, class of '66)
No reflection on the Great George, just disbelief that anyone would
compare his composing with that of FMT! (Hope you had a jazzy school
song at GGJHS, or are school songs more of a British tradition?)
Sarn
Lyrics to the tune of "Of Thee I Sing"...I'll spare you.

Steve
Reza Ganjavi (www.rezamusic.com)
2004-10-11 10:38:30 UTC
Permalink
The Angelo that I know - and I know him much better than many of you guys -
is far from what you've portrayed him here. The image of him bashing others
to make space for himself and so on is absolutely rubbish. He is so far
beyond most of you guys who bash him - so far - that you can't even begin to
understand that he has NO need - ZERO need - to bash anyone for his own
self-perpetuation. He is not a man of ego but a basher who can only see
another as an egoist is because he is an egoist himself caught in comparison
and jealousy - so that's all he sees. Jealousy is an amazing, often hidden
factor that shapes behaviour and even values - so deep rooted you probably
don't even know it.

He is such a human to the true meaning of the word Angelo is a no-nonsense
man.
He is not a man of gossip. He is a kind man. He is not a cunning man. Some
of these values
unfortunately are foreign to many people.

Angelo as I know him, is a man who does not mind being nothing - he does not
need the world .He does not even need praise. He is a harmless man.

Part of Angelo's beauty as a human is that he too makes mistakes. And part
of his beauty is that he admits it unlike some people who are hard headed
and have trouble admitting a mistake.

Angelo is at a level of generosity that is very rare these days. If he
has 2 pieces of bread he makes sure a hungry man gets one if not both.
And I mean this rhetorically as well as actually. His students can testify
to
his generosity. This level of generosity is not of an ordinary spirit - in
fact
they probably misinterpret it as "giving to receive" because that's how most
of the world works. Angelo's is a new mind together with the best of
refined,
classic values still found in certain places like Italy. As one travels and
observes
different cultures it is amazing how some of these values seem so foreign to
some places and people.

His music is most incredible and beautiful. His creative sound lines,
colors,
shapes, forms and figures take the mind to a different dimention. He is a
genius, and being so, there are people out there who are composer-wanna-be's
and they're dead jealous of him so they cause him a lot of problems.

Angelo's music has touched and enriched many people's lives including those
on this board who have loved and adored not just his music, but his
generosity, wisdom, gentleness, and genuine human-ness.

Reza
Post by Tyl Ulenspiegl
Post by Matanya Ophee
To assign ulterior
economic motivation to an opinion about the music of a dead composer,
is nothing short malevolent stupidity. Would Angelo stand to profit
from a bad opinion of the music of, let's say, Graupner, Varlet,
Hummel or Delius?
Why not? 4 names off the boat of music history means more space for himself.
RT
Well, exactly, Roman. If I have accused Angelo Gilardino of anything it is
of taking the foolish risk of just such an accusation. What drives him to
take that risk? Why does he make totally odious comparisons between the
music of F. Moreno Torroba and Gershwin? Gershwin! Why does he write off
South American composers or F. Tárrega? So infra dig, so unjust to his own
creative achievements.
One of the guitar's greatest riches is the unique diversity of its music
but it seems that some find this very hard to accept, a threat to some
kind of obscure classical continuity that has scarcely existed in the
history of the instrument.
Why is this unique diversity so hard for some to accept?
SD
William Jennings
2004-10-11 21:01:01 UTC
Permalink
The Angelo that I know - > Angelo is at a level of generosity that is
very rare these days. If he
has 2 pieces of bread he makes sure a hungry man gets one if not both.
And I mean this rhetorically as well as actually. His students can testify
to
his generosity. This level of generosity is not of an ordinary
spirit - in
fact
they probably misinterpret it as "giving to receive" because that's how most
of the world works. Angelo's is a new mind together with the best of
refined,
classic values still found in certain places like Italy. As one travels and
observes
different cultures it is amazing how some of these values seem so foreign to
some places and people.
Angelo, spent some $400.00 to keep a young student I'd sent him from
going to jail. The kid was underage and had "passport" problems. I
tried to repay Angelo the money he was out. He would have none of it.
Angelo sent me music!
He an I have fought, sometimes, bitterly but we have a saving grace....
we both love the music. He professes not to love the guitar. He's just
another guitar player full of contradictions.... on his web page, Angelo
is holding that guitar close to his heart.

Who here can replace him. You do not have to like him, but who can
replace him?

I have rediscovered my affection for Angelo Gilardino.

Wm. David Jennings
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-11 22:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Jennings
He an I have fought, sometimes, bitterly but we have a saving grace....
we both love the music.
You must think that some of us have very short memories, David. Mostly,
you fought with Angelo, he did not fight with you.

Your behaviour towards him was utterly repellent and totally symptomatic
of your mental health.

SD
William Jennings
2004-10-11 23:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by William Jennings
He an I have fought, sometimes, bitterly but we have a saving grace....
we both love the music.
You must think that some of us have very short memories, David. Mostly,
you fought with Angelo, he did not fight with you.
Your behaviour towards him was utterly repellent and totally
symptomatic
Post by Sarn Dyer
of your mental health.
Dear Sarnista'

It's interesting, your interest in my mental health. It seems that is
the option of last resort on rmcg, to say someone is crazy.
The powerless often resort to rumors. Rumor is without witness, without
judge, malicious and deceivable. I suppose some accept your allegations
uncritically. I turn aside your provacation. If someone I deeply
respected had said such a thing, I would be worried ( but not much :-)
But as gossip on rmcg it doesn't count for much. I am not concerned
about your specific allegations. I guess that's it, in these surreal
split seconds of calm, lucid realization.... with mute grace I accept my
final undoing. I accept and embrace your hypocrisy.

Che'

P.S. I studied Voo Doo and can make myself invisible. If you start
having nail problems....it might be divine or who knows, preterhuman
judgement. That's crazy hombre.... but, I approve of that message. :-)

Che' Loco
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-12 00:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Jennings
It's interesting, your interest in my mental health. It seems that is
the option of last resort on rmcg, to say someone is crazy.
The powerless often resort to rumors. Rumor is without witness, without
judge, malicious and deceivable.
You have an extraordinary mind, David, but it's a mind that you have
betrayed again and again because even such a mind not sufficient for
your impossible expectations of yourself.

Perhaps one day you will appreciate the kindness and tolerance that
has been shown to you on this NG, but I'm not hopeful.

It's open to you to state publicly that you are not being treated for a
personality disorder and have never been treated for such.

SD
Larry Deack
2004-10-12 00:50:28 UTC
Permalink
"Sarn Dyer"
Post by Sarn Dyer
It's open to you to state publicly that
you are not being treated for a
personality disorder and have
never been treated for such.
What the flying freak does this have to do with anything? Are you calling
me crazy too? I was certainly psychotic after 4 days with no sleep in the
hospital. So what? You think you can do better? Try it.
William Jennings
2004-10-12 01:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by William Jennings
It's interesting, your interest in my mental health. It seems that is
the option of last resort on rmcg, to say someone is crazy.
The powerless often resort to rumors. Rumor is without witness, without
judge, malicious and deceivable.
You have an extraordinary mind, David, but it's a mind that you have
betrayed again and again because even such a mind not sufficient for
your impossible expectations of yourself.
It's open to you to state publicly that you are not being treated for a
personality disorder and have never been treated for such.
Great Expectations was a social commentary, was it not? How about Mr.
Blake's "London"
http://www.essays.cc/free_essays/c2/tda128.shtml Was he some demented
whistle blower?

Frankly, to answer your question directly, many people have said I was
crazy. I have concluded as much myself. The facts are they just didn't
catch me. I will state this publicly, I'm under no treatments, not now,
or any time in the past.
Post by Sarn Dyer
*Eduardo Abreu was institutionalized for many years for various mental
problems. Last I heard, he was still there.*

WDJ: Recall that statement you made about Eduardo Abreu?

Ophee:> I certainly do. What you seem to ignore in that statement is the
fact
Post by Sarn Dyer
that this is information I have heard from someone else, not
information I made up myself. The person who told me about it is a
resepcted member of the guitar community and a close family friend of
the Abreus. So you have me here at a disadvantage, since I am not
about
Post by Sarn Dyer
to tell who that person was.<
Here again, Rumor without witness, without judge and malicious.

I notice you don't speak much to the guitar. What can you say about
your old teacher Jose Tomas? I've never heard you speak of him.

Che'
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-12 02:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Jennings
Frankly, to answer your question directly, many people have said I was
crazy. I have concluded as much myself.
I'm glad that we can agree on something.
Post by William Jennings
I notice you don't speak much to the guitar. What can you say about
your old teacher Jose Tomas? I've never heard you speak of him.
José Tomás was a very generous teacher to me. I learnt his approach to
the guitar in detail and also studied trancription and arrangement with
him. He was a demon for fingering and hoped that, one day, he would find
the perfect system of principles. I think he would have liked more of
his students to adopt the 8 string guitar, but it didn't seem to happen.

For recreation, he used to construct meticulous model replicas of famous
cars.

Sarn
William Jennings
2004-10-12 03:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by William Jennings
I notice you don't speak much to the guitar. What can you say about
your old teacher Jose Tomas? I've never heard you speak of him.
José Tomás was a very generous teacher to me. I learnt his approach to
the guitar in detail and also studied trancription and arrangement with
him. He was a demon for fingering and hoped that, one day, he would find
the perfect system of principles.
Have we not found here recently that fingering is without Principles?

I did not see you speak up in that thread. Sooooo, Jose Tomas was a
demon. This is interesting news. Can you explain your attraction to
demons and other crazy guitarist?

More to the point. In private emails I wrote:

"Effective fingering is the liaison in which the parts are maintained
and held to another. Each preceding event prepares the way for that
which is to follow and managed with such address that the listener's
attention is never snapped." Of couse this is the product of a warpped
mind. What can you add to this?

Do you have examples you can share with us? If not, why?
Post by Sarn Dyer
For recreation, he used to construct meticulous model replicas of
famous cars.<

This certainly futhers our cause.... was he a speed demon?

Did you know that I had some classes with your teacher. I can describe
him to the nat's arse. To the cigarette's he smoked.
In fact, I could write a great deal about Mr. Tomas but you are his long
term student and really have't said much at all. What did you think of
his playing? Yes, I thought he was an excellent teacher at nthe time.
I meet in in 1974..I think was the right year.

El Loco Che'
Steven Bornfeld
2004-10-12 02:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by William Jennings
It's interesting, your interest in my mental health. It seems that is
the option of last resort on rmcg, to say someone is crazy.
The powerless often resort to rumors. Rumor is without witness, without
judge, malicious and deceivable.
You have an extraordinary mind, David, but it's a mind that you have
betrayed again and again because even such a mind not sufficient for
your impossible expectations of yourself.
Perhaps one day you will appreciate the kindness and tolerance that
has been shown to you on this NG, but I'm not hopeful.
It's open to you to state publicly that you are not being treated for a
personality disorder and have never been treated for such.
SD
Come on, Sarn--why would you make a demand like this of anyone? In any
case, what does it mean? I've been treated for a "personality disorder"
myself.
For the record, I am saddened by the bad blood between AG on the one
hand and DC and you on the other. It is clear that the three of you
have a history. I regret that AG cannot see past that to the benefit of
the rest of us, but that might just be a selfish sentiment.
I also want to go on the record as being grateful for your
contributions here and elsewhere.

Steve
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-12 02:46:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Come on, Sarn--why would you make a demand like this of anyone? In
any case, what does it mean? I've been treated for a "personality
disorder" myself.
It wasn't a demand, Steve, and WDJ has answered specifically. Perhaps if
more people were as open as you are yourself, many misunderstandings and
over-reactions might be avoided.
Post by Steven Bornfeld
For the record, I am saddened by the bad blood between AG on the one
hand and DC and you on the other.
DC has dedicated his life to a music to which AG gives no significance.
DC is one of the very few to have recognised in South America as a
master of the style. I can't blame him for feeling passionately. For my
part, I take the use and abuse of polemics in music seriously. It can
appear as such a harmless thing, just.... strong opinions about the
future of music, but it has led to tragedy, bigotry and injustice in
this country as I have tried to explain.
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I regret that AG cannot see past that to the benefit of
the rest of us, but that might just be a selfish sentiment.
I regret that too.
Post by Steven Bornfeld
I also want to go on the record as being grateful for your
contributions here and elsewhere.
Thanks, Steve, that's very kind of you.

Sarn
Matanya Ophee
2004-10-12 15:47:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
DC is one of the very few to have recognised in South America as a
master of the style.
Recognized by whom? three people in Buenos Aires? That does not make
South America.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Edward Bridge
2004-10-12 13:59:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
You must think that some of us have very short memories, David. Mostly,
you fought with Angelo, he did not fight with you.
Sarn
Can I ask you, why are you calling Che/William "David? "

Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Larry Deack
2004-10-12 23:20:52 UTC
Permalink
"Edward Bridge"
Post by Edward Bridge
Sarn
Can I ask you, why are you calling Che/William "David? "
William David Jennings. AKA - Doc, AKA - Che, AKA - who knows.???...

This is the second time this question has been asked by a regular poster and
I answered. Interesting.
Edward Bridge
2004-10-13 00:45:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
"Edward Bridge"
Post by Edward Bridge
Sarn
Can I ask you, why are you calling Che/William "David? "
William David Jennings. AKA - Doc, AKA - Che, AKA - who knows.???...
This is the second time this question has been asked by a regular poster and
I answered. Interesting.
What no name ? :>)

Hi Larry
Thank you, I knew Doc and Che but David was new to me.

Peace,
Ed Bridge , AKS Eddie Bridge AKS - Eddie Joe Bridge. Edward Joseph Bridge
or Yad Bridge ( A good friend from India pronounce my name Yad, I love it )
or HEY DAD from so,e kids in Brooklyn N.Y. There's my french student what
always calls me Edward in a other lanugage, but that's not my name! ha ha
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
TroyDonaghueIII
2004-10-13 13:45:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
"Edward Bridge"
Post by Edward Bridge
Sarn
Can I ask you, why are you calling Che/William "David? "
William David Jennings. AKA - Doc, AKA - Che, AKA - who knows.???...
This is the second time this question has been asked by a regular poster and
I answered. Interesting.
Larry AKA "The Suckass".
Edward Bridge
2004-10-13 15:24:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
"Edward Bridge"
Post by Edward Bridge
Sarn
Can I ask you, why are you calling Che/William "David? "
William David Jennings. AKA - Doc, AKA - Che, AKA - who knows.???...
This is the second time this question has been asked by a regular poster and
I answered. Interesting.
Larry AKA "The Suckass".
Larry aka . a good person !


Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/

William D Clinger
2004-10-12 04:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reza Ganjavi (www.rezamusic.com)
He is so far
beyond most of you guys who bash him....
In fairness to Angelo Gilardino, hardly anyone is bashing him,
while the number of well-wishers is large.

In their own rather different words, both Angelo and Sarn have
noted that Angelo does not enjoy the gladiatorial aspects of
usenet, but that did not stop Angelo from exercising his right
to state opinions that invite challenge. That Angelo does not
always enjoy this newsgroup should therefore come as no surprise.
His decision to withdraw from this group, temporary though I hope
it will be, is our loss and his gain. I wish him well.

Will
Edward Bridge
2004-10-09 12:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
For my part, I bear him no ill will whatever.
Dear Sarn
I know you don't :>) I also don't know your history with AG but you may
hold some of the cards in your hand in his returning ,thank you.


Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-09 13:26:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
Post by Sarn Dyer
For my part, I bear him no ill will whatever.
Dear Sarn
I know you don't :>) I also don't know your history with AG but you may
hold some of the cards in your hand in his returning ,thank you.
Thanks, Ed. It would be true to say that I'm not very sympathetic to
AG's covert musical polemics, because I don't think this is honest.
These polemics of AG's have a long history.

In my original posting, I asked AG two questions. A question is not an
accusation. It was AG's choice not to answer these, but to reply with a
veiled ad hominem attack and it was downhill all the way from then.

Sad, but worse things happen at sea...

Sarn
Edward Bridge
2004-10-09 19:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
In my original posting, I asked AG two questions. A question is not an
accusation. It was AG's choice not to answer these, but to reply with a
veiled ad hominem attack and it was downhill all the way from then.
SD

please read below with humor . .

the two questions were ?
Post by Sarn Dyer
" Really, Angelo, there is no need for your mean spirited remarks. What
purpose do they serve? Are they intended to make your compositions
appear in a better light?

a hard ass person from Brooklyn , like Steve B or I , wouldn't have a
problem with those questions but many people in this world would have.
Now I'm sure you read what MO wrote. What I had a hard time working out in
my head was " how was AG as a well known composer , musician & scholar ,
out of line?"

So I felt something was wrong , MO said what was wrong , IMO
FYI: I've play Petenera and Zapateado and still have them 90% in my head
and under my fingers . .I disagree with AG but I didn't say " hey AG your
pissing on a man's grave to make yourself look good " :>) . I mean if I
said that to your face would I be spitting my front teeth out ? ha ha

Cheers ( about three hours from now or one student and guitar client from
now!)
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Matanya Ophee
2004-10-09 20:36:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
Post by Sarn Dyer
In my original posting, I asked AG two questions. A question is not an
accusation. It was AG's choice not to answer these, but to reply with a
veiled ad hominem attack and it was downhill all the way from then.
SD
please read below with humor . .
the two questions were ?
Post by Sarn Dyer
" Really, Angelo, there is no need for your mean spirited remarks. What
purpose do they serve? Are they intended to make your compositions
appear in a better light?
That's really hard to do, read with humor the kind of mendacity SD,
and his countryman DC, are displaying here. I actually tried to forget
what prompted this, but you just reminded me. So SD say that his
questions were not an accusation. Is that a fact? when I read the
above quote, what it really says is:

Are your mean spirited remarks about Regino intended to make your own
compositions appear in a better light?

That's not only an accusation, but a truly mean spirited ad hominem
attack on Angelo. It assumes that any time someone expresses a
negative opinion of a composer, the motivation is malevolent and
driven by self promotion. Another example of a negative opinion of a
composer was given by Roman Turovsky regarding Ustvol'skaia and
Gubaidulina. Was he motivated by a desire to make his own Sautschek
forgeries appear in a better light? I doubt that very much. More
probably he was simply expressing the opinion of a blind man trying to
understand the nature of the elephant. Ignorance.

To pretend that an opinion about the music of RsdlM can possibly have
an impact on the reputation of the music of Angelo Gilardino, one way
or the other, is really a meanness driven by ignorance and no amount
of spin doctoring will change that fact.



Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Tyl Ulenspiegl
2004-10-09 22:19:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
That's not only an accusation, but a truly mean spirited ad hominem
attack on Angelo. It assumes that any time someone expresses a
negative opinion of a composer, the motivation is malevolent and
driven by self promotion. Another example of a negative opinion of a
composer was given by Roman Turovsky regarding Ustvol'skaia and
Gubaidulina. Was he motivated by a desire to make his own Sautschek
forgeries appear in a better light? I doubt that very much. More
probably he was simply expressing the opinion of a blind man trying to
understand the nature of the elephant. Ignorance.
1. According to you I am neither a composer nor a musician. That means I can
say anything I want about any musical figure.
2. I never questioned the competence of these ladies, as there are many fine
composers who write unlistenable music for various political reasons or
philosophical blindness.
RT
Carlos Barrientos
2004-10-10 01:29:45 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:44:24 GMT, in rec.music.classical.guitar you
Post by Matanya Ophee
The accusation made here by Sarn Dyer that Angelo is expressing an
opinion about Regino in order to promote his own music is nothing
short of shameful.
I return specifically to concur with MO. Anyone who has read Maestro
Gilardino's post as long as I have knows he is a man of impeccable
character and delicate sensitivity. I do not even have to address his
acumen as a musician/composer/editor. That is a matter of record in
perpetuity.

From a nothing in this world of the guitar, I cry FOUL!!!

And cite this as one of the many examples why I have taken my leave
from this environment.

I am ashamed to be a guitarist who works diligently to call himself a
Classical Guitarist, albeit occasionally, when the behavior of others
who profess to love the instrument and its music and traditions is
this shameful!.

Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (229)-438-1087

Wanna see my Classical Guitar? Model on left,
the back of mine is at the center
http://www.kenmillerguitars.com/classical.htm
Drop in and say hi to Ken and drop him an e-mail,
tell him I sent ya. http://www.kenmillerguitars.com
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-09 20:43:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
I disagree with AG but I didn't say " hey AG your
pissing on a man's grave to make yourself look good " :>) .
Nor did I, Ed, although my choice of construction could maybe have been
improved. What I really wanted to say to Angelo was: "Do you want to
risk appearing like this?"

The so-called 'avant-garde', following on the older guys like Olivier
Messiaen, were united by a common polemic and a dialectic: basically,
that 'classical' music was dead, and anyone who used traditional means
of composition was a reactionary, an anathema. Here in the UK, this was
reflected for many years in the policy of the very influential BBC Radio
3, a station with massive funding relative to its small listening
public. It performed an irreplaceable function in giving exposure to new
compositions and new composers - without its support, a composer could
get nowhere.

Then, suddenly, a small but powerful 'commissariat' took control and
decreed that only five 'contemporary'composers would be supported and
promoted. 'Traditional' composers such as Malcolm Arnold, fell foul of
this and found their works effectively banned - an appalling injustice.

I don't have time to go further into this history, but, to cut to the
chase, with regard to this generation, dividing music and polemic is
almost impossible. Likewise, dividing musicology and polemic. It's now
very difficult for a 'contemporary' composer to wear these two hats at
the same time without, as you put it, 'pissing on the graves' of recent
composers' because the polemic in question does just that. That's very
alienating to all those who have had great pleasure playing the music of
Tárrega, Lauro, the Mazas, Moreno-Torroba et al..

Some composers of this generation eventually found that they couldn't
develop their individual voice within the prescribed limits this phase
of contemporary music. In act of the greatest artistic courage and
integrity, Leo Brouwer publicly recanted his own subscription to the
dialectic, admitting his gullibility and misplaced ideals. From then on,
his music found its voice, developing, and becoming richer and more
melodic. It continues to develop.

Well, I've written too much already, so I'll leave it there for now.

ATB

Sarn

PS Nope, I don't read Matanya Ophee's postings except as far as they
appear in the postings of others!
Matanya Ophee
2004-10-09 20:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
PS Nope, I don't read Matanya Ophee's postings except as far as they
appear in the postings of others!
Smart move on his part. Instantly alleviates the need to make sense. I
challenged him to produce a source citation for the Stravinsky alleged
remark about Villa-Lobos, and of course he remains oblivious. Much
easier for him this way. Perhaps, then, Ed, if you wanted him to know
more of what you were talking about, you could quote me at great
length?

Sometimes it seem that Greg's lengthy quotations of RT's garbage are
designed specifically to circumvent my kill file...



Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Tyl Ulenspiegl
2004-10-09 22:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Sometimes it seem that Greg's lengthy quotations of RT's garbage are
designed specifically to circumvent my kill file...
A spoonful of tar in a barrel of honey......
RT
Sharon
2004-10-09 22:43:59 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 20:54:20 GMT, Matanya Ophee
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Sarn Dyer
PS Nope, I don't read Matanya Ophee's postings except as far as they
appear in the postings of others!
Smart move on his part. Instantly alleviates the need to make sense. I
challenged him to produce a source citation for the Stravinsky alleged
remark about Villa-Lobos, and of course he remains oblivious.
Sort of like the prromised apology we challenged you to make
when you were proven wrong (by your own criteria) about Mr.
Parkening's supposed "tape speed up" of the Sinfonia?

We're still waiting, by the way. . . .


Sharon
Secretary to Christopher Parkening
http://www.parkening.com
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-09 23:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Sort of like the promised apology we challenged you to make
when you were proven wrong (by your own criteria) about Mr.
Parkening's supposed "tape speed up" of the Sinfonia?
We're still waiting, by the way. . . .
Now look, Sharon, there was nothing 'malevolent' about that! ;-)

My regards to Mr. P.

Sarn
Matanya Ophee
2004-10-10 01:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Sort of like the promised apology we challenged you to make
when you were proven wrong (by your own criteria) about Mr.
Parkening's supposed "tape speed up" of the Sinfonia?
We're still waiting, by the way. . . .
Now look, Sharon, there was nothing 'malevolent' about that! ;-)
Now, that was just about the loveliest thing I have read all day....


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
William D Clinger
2004-10-10 15:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Sort of like the promised apology we challenged you to make
when you were proven wrong (by your own criteria) about Mr.
Parkening's supposed "tape speed up" of the Sinfonia?
We're still waiting, by the way. . . .
Now look, Sharon, there was nothing 'malevolent' about that! ;-)
It was an honest mistake. Matanya sincerely believes that
112 = 126.

Matanya's beliefs may not be popular, but we must admire him
for pursuing the truth no matter how many lies are told by
publishers who pretend to be musicians or scholars.

Will
Matanya Ophee
2004-10-10 01:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 20:54:20 GMT, Matanya Ophee
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Sarn Dyer
PS Nope, I don't read Matanya Ophee's postings except as far as they
appear in the postings of others!
Smart move on his part. Instantly alleviates the need to make sense. I
challenged him to produce a source citation for the Stravinsky alleged
remark about Villa-Lobos, and of course he remains oblivious.
Sort of like the prromised apology we challenged you to make
when you were proven wrong (by your own criteria) about Mr.
Parkening's supposed "tape speed up" of the Sinfonia?
We're still waiting, by the way. . . .
Who's we? you speaking for your employer now? or for Will Clinger? or
for both?

But since you insist, let me draw you a picture. If any one owes the
world an apology, it is Christopher Parkening, for taking a work for
the violin by Bach, BWV 1003a, and pretending it is actually the
Sinfonia from the Cantata No. 29. That's a lie, no matter how fast or
how slow he was playing it. These are not the same pieces of music and
if your boss thinks they are, he is woefully uninformed. And if he
does know this, a fact that can be verified by any musician who can
actually read music, by pretending they are the same musics, he is
guilty of disseminating falsehoods. Enough of that charade. Now go
back to your corner and pout. If Christopher Parkening thinks I owe
him an apology, he'd better come out like a man and ask for it
himself, and not hide behind the skirts of a hired lackey.

I still have not heard an apology from him for being a party to the
arrogation of the work of Leo Brouwer, a subject that was discussed
here recently. And just to refresh his memory of other similar
incidents, do ask him if he knows someone named Bernt Montel. Or
should I remind him?








Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Sharon
2004-10-10 02:21:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 01:53:26 GMT, Matanya Ophee
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Sharon
Sort of like the prromised apology we challenged you to make
when you were proven wrong (by your own criteria) about Mr.
Parkening's supposed "tape speed up" of the Sinfonia?
We're still waiting, by the way. . . .
Who's we? you speaking for your employer now? or for Will Clinger? or
for both?
Nice evade. But then again, you're the master at dancing
around the question to avoid a reply!


Sharon
Secretary to Christopher Parkening
http://www.parkening.com
William D Clinger
2004-10-10 15:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
If Christopher Parkening thinks I owe
him an apology, he'd better come out like a man and ask for it
himself, and not hide behind the skirts of a hired lackey.
Actually, you promised to send me a videotape of your apology
to Parkening. You proposed the deal yourself, as a kind of
wager.

I apologize for not having been man enough to ask you for it.
I will try to do better.

You owe me the videotaped apology, Matanya. Please send it.

Will
Edward Bridge
2004-10-10 02:07:57 UTC
Permalink
"Matanya Ophee" <***@orphee.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
. Perhaps, then, Ed, if you wanted him to know
Post by Matanya Ophee
more of what you were talking about, you could quote me at great
length?
Reading his reply to Ms.Sharon I have feeling he has read your reply's :>)


Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/

OT: A Stravinsky library with the leading scholar in your home must be nice.
Matanya Ophee
2004-10-10 02:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
. Perhaps, then, Ed, if you wanted him to know
Post by Matanya Ophee
more of what you were talking about, you could quote me at great
length?
Reading his reply to Ms.Sharon I have feeling he has read your reply's :>)
Actually, he simply fucked up by thinking she was addressing him and
not me.
Post by Matanya Ophee
OT: A Stravinsky library with the leading scholar in your home must be nice.
This guy, Igor Fiodorovich Stravinsky, has been a constant companion
in this house for the last five years or so. Hopefully, Margarita's
book on Svadebka (Les Noces) is going to the publisher quite soon, and
we can then switch our focus to other important Russian composers. I
get to read the chapters of the book as they are being written, and it
is quite an education. One thing I can tell you, as genius as he was,
Stravinsky was a really nasty unpleasant human being. He could have
well said what he is reputed to have said about Villa-Lobos, but I
doubt very much he said it publicly, and certainly not during HVL's
life time. He was not stupid and he knew that HVL was powerful enough
and influential enough to retaliate against him. He could have said it
publicly _after_ HVL death, but I'd like to see a precise citation on
this before I can take it seriously.





Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Edward Bridge
2004-10-10 04:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
This guy, Igor Fiodorovich Stravinsky, has been a constant companion
in this house for the last five years or so. Hopefully, Margarita's
book on Svadebka (Les Noces) is going to the publisher quite soon, and
we can then switch our focus to other important Russian composers.
sort of like " Stravinsky, your out of here >> "

He could have said it
Post by Matanya Ophee
publicly _after_ HVL death, but I'd like to see a precise citation on
this before I can take it seriously.
before SD mention Stravinsky -HVL statement, have you or anyone else at
RMCG ,ever heard the humor ?

Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Matanya Ophee
2004-10-10 15:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
He could have said it
Post by Matanya Ophee
publicly _after_ HVL death, but I'd like to see a precise citation on
this before I can take it seriously.
before SD mention Stravinsky -HVL statement, have you or anyone else at
RMCG ,ever heard the humor ?
It's been floating around for years. You do a Google search on that
and you will find it in several on-line compendia of quotations. None
of them say where it came from.




Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-10 09:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
Reading his reply to Ms.Sharon I have feeling he has read your reply's :>)
Steady on, Ed! I get e-mails!

SD
T***@hotmail.com
2004-10-12 19:16:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
OT: A Stravinsky library with the leading scholar in your home must be nice.
To use Matanya's "Highlander" metaphor about "there can only be one",
There is also one of the world's leading Stravinsky scholars nearby at
Oberlin: Dr. Lynne Rogers:

http://www.oberlin.edu/con/bkstage/199909/rogers_lynne.html

Tony Morris
Edward Bridge
2004-10-10 01:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
I don't have time to go further into this history,
at some time I should learn a bit more about this subject.
Post by Sarn Dyer
Well, I've written too much already, so I'll leave it there for now.
okay enough said . .thank you for you time.
Post by Sarn Dyer
PS Nope, I don't read Matanya Ophee's postings except as far as they
appear in the postings of others!
okay let me pass this on to you , FYI : Mo was letting you know that one
of the largest libraries in the US of Stravinsky material, is
right in his house ,with world's leading Stravinsky scholars, his wife . He
spent a littel time looking for the Stravinsky -Villa Lobos . .
Peace
Ed
Matti Partonen
2004-10-11 09:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by Edward Bridge
I disagree with AG but I didn't say " hey AG your
pissing on a man's grave to make yourself look good " :>) .
Nor did I, Ed, although my choice of construction could maybe have been
improved. What I really wanted to say to Angelo was: "Do you want to
risk appearing like this?"
But you *did* say essentially that, whatever your intentions might have been.

Even this your softening, "what I really ..." gives me the impression that you
still think Angelo was in need of your advice, that you position yourself
somehow above him.

In my opinion, a humble apology from you to Angelo would be in place here.

Matti P.
Edward Bridge
2004-10-11 11:07:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matti Partonen
In my opinion, a humble apology from you to Angelo would be in place here
Yes !!!!!

Ed Bridge
William Jennings
2004-10-11 11:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matti Partonen
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by Edward Bridge
I disagree with AG but I didn't say " hey AG your
pissing on a man's grave to make yourself look good " :>) .
Nor did I, Ed, although my choice of construction could maybe have been
improved. What I really wanted to say to Angelo was: "Do you want to
risk appearing like this?"
But you *did* say essentially that, whatever your intentions might have been.
Even this your softening, "what I really ..." gives me the impression that you
still think Angelo was in need of your advice, that you position yourself
somehow above him.
In my opinion, a humble apology from you to Angelo would be in place here.
Matti P.
It wiggle room Sarn is looking for. On his bad side, he is very simply
defying a force that opposes him and purposelessly intent on
accomplishing that. He expects us to turn aside provocation and pocket
the affronts. I got news for Sarn. When you cite a small part of a
message you ought to make sure that what you cite is not misleading as
compared to the rest of the message. We see it a lot here. What is
less than satisfactory to me is that he did not in fact give the real
purport of the document. That's easy to learn here. I have observed
with sufficient care a few past masters of that tactic here. I don't
mind lying but I hate inaccuracy.

Now, I don't reckon we have to get into real humble apologies. If Sarn
can make apology to Angelo. I will make apology to Sarn for that joke I
made about him that's going around though the back doors. Well,
maybe.... I'm not much for social courtesy and Sarn will profess to be
outraged.... who knows, maybe the Ancestors are watching. :-)

Sarn, I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but,
I am not sure you realize that what you heard may not be what I meant.
Still with me now. [That's how you write] I learned a Special High
Intensity Training program here on rmcg for obsurationist. After
substantial evidence to the contrary I have begun to adopt something of
a skeptical view of some of your dispatches. You might invest in some
Velcro lip fasteners but since you've been caught in your transparent
device, admit it, apologize and say this is 2004, everyone accepts that
nowadays.....

Your audience will thank you.

Che'
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-11 12:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Jennings
Sarn, I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but,
I am not sure you realize that what you heard may not be what I meant.
I have no idea what you are talking about David, and will just assume
that you are going into another of your down cycles.

Your postings should carry a health warning and it's your mental health
that I'm talking about.

SD
William Jennings
2004-10-11 12:46:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
I have no idea what you are talking about David, and will just assume
that you are going into another of your down cycles.
Your postings should carry a health warning and it's your mental health
that I'm talking about.
I must decline to be interrupted. You can't exspect an I - Thou
relationship. Did you just select that one small part or did you object
to the entire message? I did with purpose and intent.... so you would
have to read it a number of times. This is not reciprocal altruism. You
are following remedy procedures unsuccessfully.

Che'
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-11 12:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matti Partonen
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by Edward Bridge
I disagree with AG but I didn't say " hey AG your
pissing on a man's grave to make yourself look good " :>) .
Nor did I, Ed, although my choice of construction could maybe have been
improved. What I really wanted to say to Angelo was: "Do you want to
risk appearing like this?"
But you *did* say essentially that, whatever your intentions might have been.
Matti, I'm happy with the construction that I used. I might have
softened my question, but then Angelo Gilardino might have softened his
ex cathedra dismissal of Regino Sainz de la Maza as a composer.

I've explained my position on Angelo's covert polemics already: I don't
find them admirable. They have a long history. In an interview with him
in Guitar International some years ago, when Angelo was still developing
his career as a composer, his interviewer stated that he, Angelo, had
succeeded in offending just about everyone in the guitar world. Angelo
did not deny it. He is still a polemicist and wishes to remain so but
without alienating others from his music. A question of wanting to have
your cake and eat it.

When Leo Brouwer publicly renounced this polemic, Angelo's response, on
the old Eskimo guitar forum, was that Brouwer had 'sold out' to make his
music more acceptable.

You are doing him no favours by trying to trying to continue this
subject. He is a mature man, not a child, and well able to answer for
himself if he wishes to do so. If you are missing his contribution, you
can find him operating as usual on the E-Borneo group and he still
subscribes to the Yahoo Classical Guitar Group.

You are assuming that Angelo left r.m.c.g. because of this one small
question of mine and, in doing so, are implying that he is a petty and
small minded individual.

Perhaps *you* owe him an apology.

Sarn Dyer
Tyl Ulenspiegl
2004-10-11 12:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
You are doing him no favours by trying to trying to continue this
subject. He is a mature man, not a child, and well able to answer for
himself if he wishes to do so. If you are missing his contribution, you
can find him operating as usual on the E-Borneo group and he still
subscribes to the Yahoo Classical Guitar Group.
He also keeps a blog on LiveJournal, username Calatrava (sic!).
RT
William Jennings
2004-10-11 12:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matti Partonen
Post by Matti Partonen
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by Edward Bridge
I disagree with AG but I didn't say " hey AG your
pissing on a man's grave to make yourself look good " :>) .
Nor did I, Ed, although my choice of construction could maybe have been
improved. What I really wanted to say to Angelo was: "Do you want to
risk appearing like this?"
But you *did* say essentially that, whatever your intentions might
have been.
Matti, I'm happy with the construction that I used. I might have
softened my question, but then Angelo Gilardino might have softened his
ex cathedra dismissal of Regino Sainz de la Maza as a composer.
I've explained my position on Angelo's covert polemics already: I don't
find them admirable. They have a long history. In an interview with him
in Guitar International some years ago, when Angelo was still
developing
Post by Matti Partonen
his career as a composer, his interviewer stated that he, Angelo, had
succeeded in offending just about everyone in the guitar world. Angelo
did not deny it. He is still a polemicist and wishes to remain so but
without alienating others from his music. A question of wanting to have
your cake and eat it.
When Leo Brouwer publicly renounced this polemic, Angelo's response, on
the old Eskimo guitar forum, was that Brouwer had 'sold out' to make his
music more acceptable.
You are doing him no favours by trying to trying to continue this
subject. He is a mature man, not a child, and well able to answer for
himself if he wishes to do so. If you are missing his contribution, you
can find him operating as usual on the E-Borneo group and he still
subscribes to the Yahoo Classical Guitar Group.
You are assuming that Angelo left r.m.c.g. because of this one small
question of mine and, in doing so, are implying that he is a petty and
small minded individual.
Perhaps *you* owe him an apology.
Sarn Dyer
It sounds to me like you are compressing the reality of some 30 years
into the rhythm of a few questions and answers.
Not very sporting of you.. trying to even in the odds. It appears you
will offer even more damaging information as a way of making amends.
You're beginning to sound like a recreational gossip.

Che'
Angelo Gilardino
2004-10-11 13:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Matti, I'm happy with the construction that I used. I might have
softened my question, but then Angelo Gilardino might have softened his
ex cathedra dismissal of Regino Sainz de la Maza as a composer.
For a respect to the friends who have kindly taken a public position in this
story, I feel obliged to point out once more what I mean and what, I
believe, I said.
This is the very last time I am writing on this subject, and - I stress this
point - I do this only for a sense of responsibility toward third parties
who took the pain of writing here.
Whatever I said, was said with very plain and normal words, with no
assumption that I was speaking ex-cathedra: I believe that he was not a
composer and I told he was not a composer. That I was speaking with a
pre-built authority is a sheer invention: not a single word of mine can be
correctly quoted for supporting such a statement. I do not need more than my
thoughts and feels to feed my opinions and I do not need anybody permission
to make them public: I am not an authority, I am a man, with my thoughts, my
beliefs, my faiths and my passions, and upon them I founded all what I did
so far. My cathedra is in your mind. Not only I do not have it, I do refuse
it with all my strenght. Do you know why? Because I do not need it. I feel
very well as I am.
Post by Sarn Dyer
I've explained my position on Angelo's covert polemics already: I don't
find them admirable. They have a long history. In an interview with him
in Guitar International some years ago, when Angelo was still developing
his career as a composer, his interviewer stated that he, Angelo, had
succeeded in offending just about everyone in the guitar world. Angelo
did not deny it.
Here the text of that part of that interview (published on 1992), faithfully
quoted:
AB (The interviewer): The beginning of your career - I refer to the early
seventies - was characterised by harsh quarrels with most Italian guitarists
and also with foreign guitarists. Time has proved that you were not simply a
"naughty boy", but a person capable of seeing farther than many others. In
the course of time you become more tolerant or have you retained your early,
sharp critical inflexibility?

AG I don't like polemic in itself. I think it is an instrument for culture,
provided that when you have a polemic with somebody you are able to divide
the themes, the arguments, the subjects of the polemic from the person. My
arguments have always been given with a great respect for the person with
whom I was not in agreement. I can't see that this regard has been used to
me, but I never cared about this. I have always thought that when you have a
strong idea, and when you are correct, at the end the truth will come out,
and I don't think I have been wrong in this sense. Of course, I would like
to be in harmony with all the world, but it is impossible. I have
discovered, in my career, that you make enemies, not because you do
something to somebody, but simply because you exist - and I cannot give up
existing!

----

Of course I confirm all what I said as above reported, and I invite
everybody here to see how well it applies to the situation. One thing I want
to stress: in art - as in other fields - whether an idea, or a series of
ideas, let me say - pompously - a "philosophy", cannot be judged only in
itself, with just considering how nice are the words which speak it. Ideas,
in art, are valuable only when facts are attached to it exactly as fruits
are attached to a tree. With those ideas - which caused so many polemics
among guitarists - I have built up, in less than 40 years, a series of 300
(yes, three hundreds) publications of new music for guitar written by very
distinguished composers all over the world, or rescued from where nobody
else, before me, had been able to shake the dust. I have created, with my
own ideas - the very same ideas which lead me to discriminate a true
composer from an occasional writer of little, unconsequent guitar solo
works - a repertoire which includes the works of authors who never wrote
for guitar before I invited them, the works of authors who returned to
compose for guitar after a disappointing, isolated first experience, and did
so because it was me to ask them, and the works of authors who were buried
under the silence from decades. If I had not been the man I am, with the
ideas I have and the opinions I tell aloud without fear, I would not have
been called by the heirs of Segovia (who left them such an instruction? did
they look for me into some dictionary of guitarists?) to take care of the
music he left, and you - the British guitarists, as well those of all the
world - wouldn't be allowed to add to your repertoire the works of Lennox
Berkeley and of Cyril Scott. Is there anybody in this discussion who can
show the fruits of his ideas, made available to the guitar world, at the
same extent? What did they do, concretely, besides and beyond announcing
their ideas and dismissing my own? Facts, please: titles, publications,
dates.

--------
Post by Sarn Dyer
He is still a polemicist and wishes to remain so but
without alienating others from his music. A question of wanting to have
your cake and eat it.
My music is published, and it speaks for itself. People who can feel
alienated from my music because they do not agree or sympathize with my
ideas, or because have taken an opposite party in a polemic, are people whom
I wish to stay out from my music. Because they are stupid, and a stupid
works stupidly when thinking, when playing and also when sleeping. You tell
you are a composer. Well, rest assured that when your compositions will be
published (I apologize if they are already and I do not know of their
publication: I am ready to know about them) I will read them for what they
are, and not for what our relationship has been so far. I am not stupid.
Post by Sarn Dyer
When Leo Brouwer publicly renounced this polemic, Angelo's response, on
the old Eskimo guitar forum, was that Brouwer had 'sold out' to make his
music more acceptable.
Leo and me, we are tied in a connection that you will never know: we feel
estimation for each other.

And now, a conclusion, once for all. I work for music in the guitar world
according to my way of being a musician. If my works and my ideas are
discusses, whatever the conclusion maybe, I am in the game. I leave the
field because here it is not a matter of ideas and works. This too is a long
story. But it is boring, useless and it leads nowhere. I have music to make.

Thankyou to all the friends who wrote in the NG and privately.


AG
Sarn Dyer
2004-10-11 14:31:22 UTC
Permalink
That was a good answer, Angelo, well expressed and in a civilized voice.
Post by Angelo Gilardino
If I had not been the man I am, with the
Post by Angelo Gilardino
ideas I have and the opinions I tell aloud without fear, I would not have
been called by the heirs of Segovia (who left them such an instruction? did
they look for me into some dictionary of guitarists?) to take care of the
music he left, and you - the British guitarists, as well those of all the
world - wouldn't be allowed to add to your repertoire the works of Lennox
Berkeley and of Cyril Scott.
I think you demand too much faith that your activities as an editor are
entirely informed by your own personal beliefs. As you are associated
with a commercial publisher, you are not free to express negative
opinions of the works that you edit. Whether some of the works from the
'Segovia Archive' merited publication is a moot point. Perhaps it is
moot for you too.

For myself, I am happy to consider our disagreement here as a 'clearing
of the air', but I hope that you, for your part, will be able recognise
that there are aspects to our disagreement that are deeply and sincerely
held: they are not simply the expression of ill-will towards yourself as
you have implied on more than one occasion.

SD
Klaus Heim
2004-10-11 16:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by Angelo Gilardino
If I had not been the man I am, with the
Post by Angelo Gilardino
ideas I have and the opinions I tell aloud without fear, I would not have
been called by the heirs of Segovia (who left them such an instruction? did
they look for me into some dictionary of guitarists?) to take care of the
music he left, and you - the British guitarists, as well those of all the
world - wouldn't be allowed to add to your repertoire the works of Lennox
Berkeley and of Cyril Scott.
I think you demand too much faith that your activities as an editor are
entirely informed by your own personal beliefs. As you are associated
with a commercial publisher, you are not free to express negative
opinions of the works that you edit.
There is at least one exception to that rule. There is a piece published by
Berben and dedicated to Angelo, which he has called "ugly". In public.

Klaus
Lutemann
2004-10-11 23:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angelo Gilardino
I believe that he was not a
composer and I told he was not a composer. That I was speaking with a
pre-built authority is a sheer invention: not a single word of mine can be
correctly quoted for supporting such a statement.
Hell, Sor wasn't much of a composer either. Why are you leaving the list?

Kent
Reza Ganjavi (www.rezamusic.com)
2004-10-11 20:46:27 UTC
Permalink
Isn't it a pity Angelo that one has to spend the time and energy of writing
what you beautifully wrote below just to convey something which is so clear,
simple, and common sense. Why do some people need such explanations? Why
can't they get it on their own. You know what I think is the reason?
jealousy! Jealousy seems to make an intelligent man stupid and a man of
vision blind, because it dithers and filters their outlook. Then they need
you to hammer these basic common sense items into their head before they
leave you alone.

I've always found it ironic how jealousy makes one demanding. The jealous
person demands to drag the other to their level, to level the playing field
and even want you to hit the ball and play with them, ignorant of the fact
that you're not even in their ball park. How do you tell someone you're not
interested in playing their game? I guess walking out is one way.
Post by Angelo Gilardino
Post by Sarn Dyer
Matti, I'm happy with the construction that I used. I might have
softened my question, but then Angelo Gilardino might have softened his
ex cathedra dismissal of Regino Sainz de la Maza as a composer.
For a respect to the friends who have kindly taken a public position in
this story, I feel obliged to point out once more what I mean and what, I
believe, I said.
This is the very last time I am writing on this subject, and - I stress
this point - I do this only for a sense of responsibility toward third
parties who took the pain of writing here.
Whatever I said, was said with very plain and normal words, with no
assumption that I was speaking ex-cathedra: I believe that he was not a
composer and I told he was not a composer. That I was speaking with a
pre-built authority is a sheer invention: not a single word of mine can be
correctly quoted for supporting such a statement. I do not need more than
my thoughts and feels to feed my opinions and I do not need anybody
permission to make them public: I am not an authority, I am a man, with my
thoughts, my beliefs, my faiths and my passions, and upon them I founded
all what I did so far. My cathedra is in your mind. Not only I do not have
it, I do refuse it with all my strenght. Do you know why? Because I do not
need it. I feel very well as I am.
Post by Sarn Dyer
I've explained my position on Angelo's covert polemics already: I don't
find them admirable. They have a long history. In an interview with him
in Guitar International some years ago, when Angelo was still developing
his career as a composer, his interviewer stated that he, Angelo, had
succeeded in offending just about everyone in the guitar world. Angelo
did not deny it.
Here the text of that part of that interview (published on 1992),
AB (The interviewer): The beginning of your career - I refer to the early
seventies - was characterised by harsh quarrels with most Italian
guitarists and also with foreign guitarists. Time has proved that you were
not simply a "naughty boy", but a person capable of seeing farther than
many others. In the course of time you become more tolerant or have you
retained your early, sharp critical inflexibility?
AG I don't like polemic in itself. I think it is an instrument for
culture, provided that when you have a polemic with somebody you are able
to divide the themes, the arguments, the subjects of the polemic from the
person. My arguments have always been given with a great respect for the
person with whom I was not in agreement. I can't see that this regard has
been used to me, but I never cared about this. I have always thought that
when you have a strong idea, and when you are correct, at the end the
truth will come out, and I don't think I have been wrong in this sense. Of
course, I would like to be in harmony with all the world, but it is
impossible. I have discovered, in my career, that you make enemies, not
because you do something to somebody, but simply because you exist - and I
cannot give up existing!
----
Of course I confirm all what I said as above reported, and I invite
everybody here to see how well it applies to the situation. One thing I
want to stress: in art - as in other fields - whether an idea, or a series
of ideas, let me say - pompously - a "philosophy", cannot be judged only
in itself, with just considering how nice are the words which speak it.
Ideas, in art, are valuable only when facts are attached to it exactly as
fruits are attached to a tree. With those ideas - which caused so many
polemics among guitarists - I have built up, in less than 40 years, a
series of 300 (yes, three hundreds) publications of new music for guitar
written by very distinguished composers all over the world, or rescued
from where nobody else, before me, had been able to shake the dust. I
have created, with my own ideas - the very same ideas which lead me to
discriminate a true composer from an occasional writer of little,
unconsequent guitar solo works - a repertoire which includes the works of
authors who never wrote for guitar before I invited them, the works of
authors who returned to compose for guitar after a disappointing, isolated
first experience, and did so because it was me to ask them, and the works
of authors who were buried under the silence from decades. If I had not
been the man I am, with the ideas I have and the opinions I tell aloud
without fear, I would not have been called by the heirs of Segovia (who
left them such an instruction? did they look for me into some dictionary
of guitarists?) to take care of the music he left, and you - the British
guitarists, as well those of all the world - wouldn't be allowed to add to
your repertoire the works of Lennox Berkeley and of Cyril Scott. Is there
anybody in this discussion who can show the fruits of his ideas, made
available to the guitar world, at the same extent? What did they do,
concretely, besides and beyond announcing their ideas and dismissing my
own? Facts, please: titles, publications, dates.
--------
Post by Sarn Dyer
He is still a polemicist and wishes to remain so but
without alienating others from his music. A question of wanting to have
your cake and eat it.
My music is published, and it speaks for itself. People who can feel
alienated from my music because they do not agree or sympathize with my
ideas, or because have taken an opposite party in a polemic, are people
whom I wish to stay out from my music. Because they are stupid, and a
stupid works stupidly when thinking, when playing and also when sleeping.
You tell you are a composer. Well, rest assured that when your
compositions will be published (I apologize if they are already and I do
not know of their publication: I am ready to know about them) I will read
them for what they are, and not for what our relationship has been so far.
I am not stupid.
Post by Sarn Dyer
When Leo Brouwer publicly renounced this polemic, Angelo's response, on
the old Eskimo guitar forum, was that Brouwer had 'sold out' to make his
music more acceptable.
Leo and me, we are tied in a connection that you will never know: we feel
estimation for each other.
And now, a conclusion, once for all. I work for music in the guitar world
according to my way of being a musician. If my works and my ideas are
discusses, whatever the conclusion maybe, I am in the game. I leave the
field because here it is not a matter of ideas and works. This too is a
long story. But it is boring, useless and it leads nowhere. I have music
to make.
Thankyou to all the friends who wrote in the NG and privately.
AG
Matti Partonen
2004-10-11 14:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
You are assuming that Angelo left r.m.c.g. because of this one small
question of mine and, in doing so, are implying that he is a petty and
small minded individual.
I have expressed no such assumption. Anybody is free to guess what I may or
may not assume, but such guessing is, I can assure you, among the most
useless things one can do.

Matti P.
Matanya Ophee
2004-10-11 15:06:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Matti, I'm happy with the construction that I used. I might have
softened my question, but then Angelo Gilardino might have softened his
ex cathedra dismissal of Regino Sainz de la Maza as a composer.
This sounds like an invitation to black-mail. Besides, the parallel is
untenable. Angelo's opinion of Regino, whether anyone shares it or
not, is an opinion of a musician about music. Sarn Dyer's attack on
Angelo is not about music, but about manners. No one appointed Sarn
Dyer as a protector of the reputation of others, and his services in
this regard are totally uncalled for.



Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Tyl Ulenspiegl
2004-10-11 15:34:28 UTC
Permalink
"MO on manners" is as justifiable a lecture as "2-bit whore on chastity".
RT
________________
http://polyhymnion.org
Post by Matanya Ophee
Angelo is not about music, but about manners. No one appointed Sarn
Dyer as a protector of the reputation of others, and his services in
this regard are totally uncalled for.
Matanya Ophee
Lutemann
2004-10-11 19:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tyl Ulenspiegl
"MO on manners" is as justifiable a lecture as "2-bit whore on chastity".
RT
________________
You mean a "nickel whore" ,don't you?

Kent
Tyl Ulenspiegl
2004-10-11 19:40:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by Tyl Ulenspiegl
"MO on manners" is as justifiable a lecture as "2-bit whore on chastity".
RT
________________
You mean a "nickel whore" ,don't you?
Kent
No. Royalties whore rather. Fluctuating value.
RT
Scott Daughtrey
2004-10-11 16:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
but about manners.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!

MO? Discussing manners? Hahahahah!!!! Ahhh...this is truly priceless, thanks
for the chuckles ;-)
Alain Reiher
2004-10-11 17:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Definitivement, en lisant tout cela, je ne peux qu'en arriver à la
conclusion que le monde est plein de fous.

Alain
Scott Daughtrey
2004-10-11 18:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Definitivement, en lisant tout cela, je ne peux qu'en arriver à la
conclusion que le monde est plein de fous.
Alain
Certainement il n'y a aucun arguement où -je- suis concerné !

Scott
Alain Reiher
2004-10-11 19:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Professor Bandini speech on the porch or veranda.

It was something that professor Bandini believes, over all academicals
necessity - him, simply, believes that things were happening exactly as is,
he believes it even when he was in his bathroom. he really thought that men
were standing on the veranda of their own life (consequently exiled from
themselves) and that it is the only way for them to defend their life
against the world, because if only they took the risk to go inside (thus, to
be themselves) this house would immediately turn again into a fragile
shelter in face of the ocean of nothingness, destined to see themselves
being swept away by the great wave of openness, and the shelter would
transform itself into a deadly trap, reason for which people hurry to go out
on their veranda (and thus from themselves), taking position again at the
sole place were it has been possible for them to stop the invasion of the
world, saving at least the idea of a house that belong to them, even at the
price of knowing that this house is inhabitable. We have houses but we are
verandas, he thought. he was looking at the men and in their moving lies he
could hear the creaking of the rocking chair on the filthy floor of the
porch; and for him the big glitters of pride and tiring affirmation of the
self were he saw, in others and in himself, nesting the verdict of an
eternal exile was nothing more than ridiculous charged guns.
It is a very sad story, if one think about it seriously, but also moving,
because at the end, professor Bandini knew he could feel affection for
himself and for all others, and compassion too for all the verandas, he
could see, that were surrounding him.
They were something infinitely dignified in this eternal hesitation in front
of the porch of the house, a step before ourselves... The nights were the
ferocious wind of truth would raise, in the following morning, you just have
to repair the porch roof of your lies, with an hard-wearing patience, but
when my love will come back everything will fall in place, we will look at
the sunset together drinking coloured water or ...
When someone, incapable of bearing the weight anymore, would ask you to sit
in front of him and would open up his mind, without hiding anything, but
really saying everything, and even there what you would understand was that
you were sitting on his veranda, but that he would not let you in, in his
house, the house in which he did not went in for years, and it was the
paradoxical reason why he was there, in front of you, overloaded ...
Those nights were the air is cold and the people seems absent, suddenly you
feel weird, there, on your veranda, watching for an enemy that does not
exist, and it is a fatigue that bites, and the humiliation to feel as
unnecessarily ridicule, at the end, you stand up and you go in, after years
of lies, of comedies, you go in knowing that maybe you will not find your
path, once inside, as if it was the house of someone else when it is yours,
it still is, you open the door and you go in, curious happiness that you had
forgotten, your own house, god that is beautiful, this warmth, peace, me,
finally, I will never go out of here, I put my gun in a corner and I
reacquaint myself with the shape of the objects and the figures of the
space, I reacquaint myself with the geography of forgotten truth,
I learn to move around without breaking anything, when someone will knock at
the door, I will open it, when it will be summer I will open up the windows,
wide,

(from "City" p. 232 - 234, Alessandro Baricco)
William D Clinger
2004-10-12 03:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
No one appointed Sarn
Dyer as a protector of the reputation of others, and his services in
this regard are totally uncalled for.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
William D Clinger
2004-10-12 03:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Sorry about that. Trying to touch-type, I hit three wrong keys
and discovered I had posted a meaningless message. Here is the
meaningless message I was trying to type.
Post by Matanya Ophee
No one appointed Sarn
Dyer as a protector of the reputation of others, and his services in
this regard are totally uncalled for.
No appointment is needed. Everyone here is free to defend
anyone. If I can defend Matanya's honesty and character,
then surely Sarn can find some way to defend Gilardino's
and de la Maza's reputations.

And to those jokers who are laughing at Matanya Ophee for
giving us a lecture on the inappropriateness of lecturing
others about manners, let me give you a lecture of my own:
Matanya's concern for others' feelings is well-documented,
and he has demonstrated his concern with great consistency
over many years.

Will
William Jennings
2004-10-12 03:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by William D Clinger
Sorry about that. Trying to touch-type, I hit three wrong keys
and discovered I had posted a meaningless message. Here is the
meaningless message I was trying to type.
Post by Matanya Ophee
No one appointed Sarn
Dyer as a protector of the reputation of others, and his services in
this regard are totally uncalled for.
No appointment is needed. Everyone here is free to defend
anyone. If I can defend Matanya's honesty and character,
then surely Sarn can find some way to defend Gilardino's
and de la Maza's reputations.
And to those jokers who are laughing at Matanya Ophee for
giving us a lecture on the inappropriateness of lecturing
Matanya's concern for others' feelings is well-documented,
and he has demonstrated his concern with great consistency
over many years.
Will
I thank you for the lecture Dr.Clinger. I, for one, have tried to
follow the example Mr. Ophee has set for us. I have often failed and
flip-flopped, howerever, I still persever in this endeavor with
pertinacity. I have one question. Since you have articulated these
sobering thoughts..... does the concept of manners on ng's have meaning
anymore?

Thank you,

Che' infirm puppy
William D Clinger
2004-10-12 14:10:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Jennings
Post by William D Clinger
Matanya's concern for others' feelings is well-documented,
and he has demonstrated his concern with great consistency
over many years.
Will
I thank you for the lecture Dr.Clinger. I, for one, have tried to
follow the example Mr. Ophee has set for us.
May the deities forgive us.
Post by William Jennings
I have one question. Since you have articulated these
sobering thoughts..... does the concept of manners on ng's have meaning
anymore?
Yes. The rarer the virtue, the greater its meaning.

Will
Tyl Ulenspiegl
2004-10-12 11:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by William D Clinger
And to those jokers who are laughing at Matanya Ophee for
giving us a lecture on the inappropriateness of lecturing
Matanya's concern for others' feelings is well-documented,
and he has demonstrated his concern with great consistency
over many years.
Will
Of course. His concern is that said feelings are in chronic pain.
RT
Reza Ganjavi (www.rezamusic.com)
2004-10-11 09:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Post by Edward Bridge
I disagree with AG but I didn't say " hey AG your
pissing on a man's grave to make yourself look good " :>) .
Nor did I, Ed, although my choice of construction could maybe have been
improved. What I really wanted to say to Angelo was: "Do you want to risk
appearing like this?"
"risk appearing" -- speaking of fear of public opinion -- appearance is
given so much importance -- in itself it's ok but unfortunately for such
mind the essence maybe missing. When essense there appearance forms its own.
Post by Sarn Dyer
Some composers of this generation eventually found that they couldn't
develop their individual voice within the prescribed limits this phase of
contemporary music.
What about your compositions Sarn. You claim to be a composer -- how can we
get the honor of listening to your work? Even midi will do. Thanks.
Matanya Ophee
2004-10-08 16:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
question: why is it, musician here can tear a part another musician playing
or their cd , a luthier will say they don't like another luthier guitar but
a composer can't say shit about another composer ?
You miss the point, Ed. Any luthier can express _public_ opinions
about the guitars made by Torres, Pages, Papazian, Scherzer, Fleta
etc. And they do. All the time. But when a living luthier says that
the work of a living contemporary is bad, this smacks instantly of
personal rivalry imbued with clear economic motivations. By the same
token, any performer can express _public_ opinions about the
performances by Segovia, de la Torre, Presti, Lagoya, Oyanguren,
Carlevaro, and they do. All the time. But when a living performer says
that the work of a living contemporary is bad, this smacks instantly
of personal rivalry imbued with clear economic motivations.

And besides, I do not recall reading public pronouncements by major
performers on the quality of playing of others. This is simply a
stupid thing to do because you never know when you will need the good
will of your victim to arrange for a major gig someplace.

And the same goes for composers. Note here that Angelo said nothing
publicly about any living composer. To deny him the right to express
an opinion about the compositional value of Regino Sainz de la Maza,
is to deny him the right to express an opinion about the music of all
dead composers. Whether I agree with him or not is besides the point.

The accusation made here by Sarn Dyer that Angelo is expressing an
opinion about Regino in order to promote his own music is nothing
short of shameful.

Bear in mind that besides being a composer, Angelo is also the Chief
Guitar Editor of a major publisher, and in that capacity, he is
required by his employer to express opinions about the work of other
composers. Such judgements are made in private and the only people who
know about them are the publisher, and the composer.

Sarn Dyer is a composer? he says he is, and I suppose that should be
good enough. When, and if, I get a chance to see or hear is music, I
will have to form my opinion of its worth. Since I am not a composer
myself, never pretended to be, I may express such an opinion publicly
or privately, as the occasion will call for. But you will never read
my critical remarks of the work of my colleagues, other _publishers_.
Except, of course, when such work involves me directly.






Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Edward Bridge
2004-10-08 23:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Edward Bridge
question: why is it, musician here can tear a part another musician playing
or their cd , a luthier will say they don't like another luthier guitar but
a composer can't say shit about another composer ?
You miss the point, Ed. Any luthier can express _public_ opinions
about the guitars made by Torres, Pages, Papazian, Scherzer, Fleta
etc. And they do. All the time. But when a living luthier says that
the work of a living contemporary is bad, this smacks instantly of
personal rivalry imbued with clear economic motivations. By the same
token, any performer can express _public_ opinions about the
performances by Segovia, de la Torre, Presti, Lagoya, Oyanguren,
Carlevaro, and they do. All the time. But when a living performer says
that the work of a living contemporary is bad, this smacks instantly
of personal rivalry imbued with clear economic motivations.
And besides, I do not recall reading public pronouncements by major
performers on the quality of playing of others. This is simply a
stupid thing to do because you never know when you will need the good
will of your victim to arrange for a major gig someplace.
And the same goes for composers. Note here that Angelo said nothing
publicly about any living composer. To deny him the right to express
an opinion about the compositional value of Regino Sainz de la Maza,
is to deny him the right to express an opinion about the music of all
dead composers. Whether I agree with him or not is besides the point.
The accusation made here by Sarn Dyer that Angelo is expressing an
opinion about Regino in order to promote his own music is nothing
short of shameful.
Bear in mind that besides being a composer, Angelo is also the Chief
Guitar Editor of a major publisher, and in that capacity, he is
required by his employer to express opinions about the work of other
composers. Such judgements are made in private and the only people who
know about them are the publisher, and the composer.
Sarn Dyer is a composer? he says he is, and I suppose that should be
good enough. When, and if, I get a chance to see or hear is music, I
will have to form my opinion of its worth. Since I am not a composer
myself, never pretended to be, I may express such an opinion publicly
or privately, as the occasion will call for. But you will never read
my critical remarks of the work of my colleagues, other _publishers_.
Except, of course, when such work involves me directly.
I agree with you 100% . .
I still question " does a living _accomplish_ composers have to walk on
eggs shells more than others in classical music field ?"
It would have been nice if some ask Angelo" why did he feel that Regino,
as a composer was a nobody ? " if instead of accusation. ..
--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
T***@hotmail.com
2004-10-09 01:39:42 UTC
Permalink
I think that eventually every regular poster on this NG gets a punch in
the nose, unfortunately.- Some more often than others. But, usually the
ones who complain the most often about their own bloody noses are often
the same ones doing an awful lot of nose-punching themselves.

When you consider the math, that is, the ratio of the number of posts
to number of verbal nose punches received, then I think Angelo has
actually fared better than most here, myself included. And I think it
is because Angelo is almost always very polite, even when disagreeing
with someone.

It is important to protect one's enthusiasm and positive mindset. Just
for my own peace of mind, and to keep myself on task and not
distracted, I hope I have learned to try and steer clear of obvious
trolling posts, and especially to avoid pointless, time-wasting
political discussions.

The very nature of music itself is subjective and opinionated. It is
good to have debates and differences of opinion. I would hope that
people can disagree without hurling insults and ad hominem attacks, and
injecting a lot of unnecessary negative emotional content, and
constantly questioning the motives of those with whom they disagree.
Not only is it just plain old rude, but it also gets in the way of
having any reasonable discussion about anything.

OK, that's enough for me, I gotta lot of prac and work to do...
Have a peaceful evening/day,

Tony
Stephen Wolfe
2004-10-09 03:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by T***@hotmail.com
When you consider the math, that is, the ratio of the number of posts
to number of verbal nose punches received, then I think Angelo has
actually fared better than most here, myself included. And I think it
is because Angelo is almost always very polite, even when disagreeing
with someone.
I think I'll just skip this thread.

SW
Matanya Ophee
2004-10-09 03:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
I still question " does a living _accomplish_ composers have to walk on
eggs shells more than others in classical music field ?"
I think not criticising your colleagues IN PUBLIC, makes sense,
because you never know when such criticism can come back and bite you
in the ass. The same holds true for performers and composers alike. It
takes a truly incisive sense of outrage for anyone to consciously burn
potential bridges of future cooperation with colleagues. Or, as we
have seen recently elsewhere, all it takes is for a paranoid
megalomaniac to assume that There Can Be Only One, as the Higlander
would say, and that one is him and the rest, living or dead, are
garbage.
Post by Edward Bridge
It would have been nice if some ask Angelo" why did he feel that Regino,
as a composer was a nobody ? " if instead of accusation. ..
But it does not matter why. I happen to have a different appreciation
of Regino, and Angelo is perfectly in his right to think whatever he
wants. What is really at stake here is not that he had expressed a
differenet opinion. As you can read in all the various posts on this
issue today, opinions vary. Chaque'un a son gout. What is really the
matter here is that SD accused him of expressing a negative opinion on
Regino as a way of promoting himself. That's a non-starter.



Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Edward Bridge
2004-10-09 12:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
What is really the
matter here is that SD accused him of expressing a negative opinion on
Regino as a way of promoting himself. That's a non-starter.
I thank you for your patience and help. I bet I'm not the only one at rmcg
who may have miss the point. . . .



--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Chris Erwich
2004-10-08 13:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Dear Angelo,

Wherever one goes, everywhere in this world there is people with disgusting
mentalities and low level behaviour.
There is a Dutch saying which tells us that "the chain is as strong as its
weakest link". Never the low-level is upgraded.....the high-level is
downgraded by the low level.
Don't you think that it is time to change this and try to make fun with the
goodies and simply neglect the bad ones? Maybe they leave by themselves
then, because every time that one is reacting on such crap, they will have
fun.
You are upgrading a lot of people with your knowledge. So please stay and
don't react on low level remarks.

With the kindest regards,
Chris
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations.
The time has come for me to go away from here. And I do.
AG
Steven Bornfeld
2004-10-08 14:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations.
The time has come for me to go away from here. And I do.
AG
Sad.
With all the wasted bandwidth on this newsgroup. who'da thunk it would
have been AG, SD and DC to get into this kind of dustup?
Couldn't it have been, you know...

Steve
Greg M. Silverman
2004-10-08 14:45:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations.
The time has come for me to go away from here. And I do.
AG
Fight the good fight AG!
David Raleigh Arnold
2004-10-08 14:59:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations. The time has come for me to
go away from here. And I do.
AG
I hope you will be back one day if you happen to have more
time on your hands, but I don't wish you that, I wish you
plenty of better things to do. Be well. daveA
--
The "information economy" is a fantasy. Information about what?
The "global economy" is a myth. All economics is local.
"Stateless terrorism" is a lie, to protect those who finance it.
D. Raleigh Arnold dra@ (http://www.) openguitar.com ***@cox.net
Mike Harris
2004-10-08 20:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations. The time has come for me to
go away from here. And I do.
AG
I hope you will be back one day if you happen to have more
time on your hands, but I don't wish you that, I wish you
plenty of better things to do. Be well. daveA
This is an extreme loss that Signor Gilardino will no longer add his
sensitive thoughts to this group. I have been following the classical
guitar and other classical music for about 30 years and I have learned
so much in the six months or so that I have been looking into this
group. Most of these insights are from Signor Gilardino - I believe
it is more his humanity than his musical knowledge that interests me -
there are a few other individuals who also make a major contribution,
a couple of them are included in those who commented on this posting
by Gilardino - but certainly Signor Gilardino's antagonist is someone
I do not pay attention to since my life is pretty busy and I cannot
deplete my scarce time very often.. So I will now be forced to visit
one seminar or another of Signor Gilardino's in Italy in this case -
it will be superior anyway.

Michael Harris
JoeT
2004-10-08 15:13:24 UTC
Permalink
Angelo,

Thank you for everything you have given us ... I understand the need to
depart ... I have stood on that fence several times ... times are turbulent
right now ... particularly here in america ...

take care ... peace, love, and prosperity
joe
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations.
The time has come for me to go away from here. And I do.
AG
Joseph Raymond
2004-10-08 16:37:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations.
The time has come for me to go away from here. And I do.
AG
Thank you for your generosity with your music, your knowledge, and
your insights. Playing your excellent music and then discussing it on
this NG was a unique and wonderful experience for me which I cherish.
In the past few years I have read almost all of your posts, and I
imagine many others have done the same. You have probably touched
more people on this NG than you think!

Best regards,
Joe
richard c. spross
2004-10-08 17:24:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Angelo,

It has been a priviledge, reading and responding with you. I wish to thank

you for all your kind comments, good humour and wonderful work on
behalf of the world of music. Our little newsgroup will be all the poorer

for your departure.

Wishing you good health, happines, boutiful creativity and good
companionship where ever your life leads you. And if you decide
to miss us, there will be many people welcoming your return.
With warm regards,
Richard Spross
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations.
The time has come for me to go away from here. And I do.
AG
i***@yahoo.dk
2004-10-09 08:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Erwich
Dear Angelo,
And may I join her. I posted 4 times on the other group but no post
went through.
So in small words. I shall miss your knowledge very much, and I do
hope to see you around or back here.
Ilf
Post by Chris Erwich
It has been a priviledge, reading and responding with you. I wish to thank
you for all your kind comments, good humour and wonderful work on
behalf of the world of music. Our little newsgroup will be all the poorer
for your departure.
Wishing you good health, happines, boutiful creativity and good
companionship where ever your life leads you. And if you decide
to miss us, there will be many people welcoming your return.
With warm regards,
Richard Spross
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations.
The time has come for me to go away from here. And I do.
AG
Reza Ganjavi (www.rezamusic.com)
2004-10-09 18:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Dear Angelo: Condolences to the group for having, I hope temporarily, lost
one of the most important members whose contributions took this group to a
level hardly found in ANY group - physical or virtual. And all this due to
jealousy of people who can not stand his genius - face it guys - take away
the jealousy and you're nothing - be nothing - it's perfectly alright.
Angelo, please come back. I beg you. Come back soon.
Post by Angelo Gilardino
My best wishes to all the good friends I met on this NG and with whom I
exchanged pleasant and useful conversations.
The time has come for me to go away from here. And I do.
AG
Loading...