Relative Difficulty

[Bert]

When performing a musical instrument, the facility that the performer has in
playing a piece is directly related to the experience that he or she has with
their instrument. For example, a beginner's lever piece that might feel
difficult for somebody that's only been playing for a few months will be
perceived as easy by somebody that's been playing for five or ten years. In
addition to that I think that while it's good to challenge oneself with pieces
that are slightly beyond reach, I also believe that attempting to play pieces
that are too complex in relation to one's current ability will have a
detrimental effect in one's musical development. So, given that the perceived
musical complexity is relative to the performer's experience, and given that
everybody's level of musical development will be different, how does one go
about coming up with a valid measure of the complexity of a piece? Personally,
I feel that if one or two pages of music can't be learned reasonably well
within 60 to 90 minutes, then the music is too difficult. By reasonably well I
don't mean that it needs to be up to performance speed, but it should have all
the right notes, with the proper note durations, and articulation.

Any comments on this subject are appreciated.

[Don A. Gilmore]

Post by Bert
When performing a musical instrument, the facility that the performer has in
playing a piece is directly related to the experience that he or she has with
their instrument. For example, a beginner's lever piece that might feel
difficult for somebody that's only been playing for a few months will be
perceived as easy by somebody that's been playing for five or ten years.
In
addition to that I think that while it's good to challenge oneself with pieces
that are slightly beyond reach, I also believe that attempting to play pieces
that are too complex in relation to one's current ability will have a
detrimental effect in one's musical development. So, given that the perceived
musical complexity is relative to the performer's experience, and given that
everybody's level of musical development will be different, how does one go
about coming up with a valid measure of the complexity of a piece?
Personally,
I feel that if one or two pages of music can't be learned reasonably well
within 60 to 90 minutes, then the music is too difficult. By reasonably well I
don't mean that it needs to be up to performance speed, but it should have all
the right notes, with the proper note durations, and articulation.
Any comments on this subject are appreciated.

Get a teacher. That's what they're for.

Don
Kansas City

[Sam Culotta]

Post by Don A. Gilmore

Post by Bert
When performing a musical instrument, the facility that the performer has in
playing a piece is directly related to the experience that he or she has with
their instrument. For example, a beginner's lever piece that might feel
difficult for somebody that's only been playing for a few months will be
perceived as easy by somebody that's been playing for five or ten years.
In
addition to that I think that while it's good to challenge oneself with pieces
that are slightly beyond reach, I also believe that attempting to play pieces
that are too complex in relation to one's current ability will have a
detrimental effect in one's musical development. So, given that the perceived
musical complexity is relative to the performer's experience, and given that
everybody's level of musical development will be different, how does one go
about coming up with a valid measure of the complexity of a piece?
Personally,
I feel that if one or two pages of music can't be learned reasonably well
within 60 to 90 minutes, then the music is too difficult. By reasonably well I
don't mean that it needs to be up to performance speed, but it should have all
the right notes, with the proper note durations, and articulation.
Any comments on this subject are appreciated.

Get a teacher. That's what they're for.
Don
Kansas City

And if you think determining what level of difficulty a piece of music is,
just try picking the right teacher.


Sam

[e***@yahoo.com]

Sshh, ixnay, let's not scare him off completely. ;-)

Ed S.

[William D Clinger]

And if you think determining what level of difficulty
a piece of music is, just try picking the right teacher.

Our resident statistician has determined that 90% of 'em
do more harm than good.

TroyIII may have supplied some of that data.

Subzero

[William Jennings]

Post by William D Clinger

And if you think determining what level of difficulty
a piece of music is, just try picking the right teacher.

Our resident statistician has determined that 90% of 'em
do more harm than good.
TroyIII may have supplied some of that data.
Subzero<

And there are some of us who have difficulty with paradoxes of
relativity!

Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark? Sub-Zero,
answer this question right an I'll give you one complimentary free trip
around the sun every year.

Che' de

[Nick Roche]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:51:56 -0500, "William Jennings"
<***@texas.net> wrote:


->Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
->300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark?
Sub-Zero,
->answer this question right an I'll give you one complimentary free
trip
->around the sun every year.
->
->Che' de

No, no, no - I have it on good authority that the speed of dark must
be the same as the speed of light (because there is no gap when the
light goes out and the dark comes in).

[William Jennings]

Post by Nick Roche
On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:51:56 -0500, "William Jennings"
->Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
->300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark?
Sub-Zero,
->answer this question right an I'll give you one complimentary free
trip
->around the sun every year.
->
->Che' de
No, no, no - I have it on good authority that the speed of dark must
be the same as the speed of light (because there is no gap when the
light goes out and the dark comes in).<

Frankly, according to a friend whose a linear accelerator dynamics
authority and piss poor guitarist, Dark is faster than Light. My friend
said Darkness was first and then came the Light. He said, "First is
first, Time will never let Darkness catch up with Light beause the Light
starts bending" I'm sure Sub-Zero can explain all that. I'm too high
too care right now. :-)


Che' de

[Sam Culotta]

Post by William Jennings

Post by Nick Roche
On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:51:56 -0500, "William Jennings"
->Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
->300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark?
Sub-Zero,
->answer this question right an I'll give you one complimentary free
trip
->around the sun every year.
->
->Che' de
No, no, no - I have it on good authority that the speed of dark must
be the same as the speed of light (because there is no gap when the
light goes out and the dark comes in).<

Frankly, according to a friend whose a linear accelerator dynamics
authority and piss poor guitarist, Dark is faster than Light. My friend
said Darkness was first and then came the Light. He said, "First is
first, Time will never let Darkness catch up with Light beause the Light
starts bending" I'm sure Sub-Zero can explain all that. I'm too high
too care right now. :-)
Che' de
He said, "First is
first, Time will never let Darkness catch up with Light beause the Light
starts bending"

Huh? And I thought darkeness was just the absence of light... silly me.
I hope that cold is still simply the absence of heat. I just can't keep up
with all this change.

Sam

[€ Alias]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:51:56 -0500, "William Jennings"

Post by William Jennings
Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark?

I think Steven Wright did that bit about 10 years ago.
It's not really funny without the monotone delivery.

¤ Alias

[Robert Crim]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:51:56 -0500, "William Jennings"

Post by William Jennings
Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark? Sub-Zero,
answer this question right an I'll give you one complimentary free trip
around the sun every year.

The same.

Robert

[William Jennings]

Post by Nick Roche
On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:51:56 -0500, "William Jennings"

Post by William Jennings
Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark? Sub-Zero,
answer this question right an I'll give you one complimentary free trip
around the sun every year.

The same.
Robert<

Give this a considered responce.... you could have been burned at the
stake for what you just said..... in another time!

Being a Lutey....you know Galileo Galile's father wrote THE book of the
times on astronomy and was confined to house arrest the rest of his
life for pointing out that free trip to the Pope-puppets.

The Petadoggys of the world always manage to slip through the fence one
way or another.... Crimson Lutes are self-destructive, look at those
hands. That noise in your head doesn't bother me. I would remove that
biker photo from the RMCG photo site. That photo speaks volumns about
those who have a fundamental faith in the use of physical force.

A Petadoggy can go in a revolving door behind you and still come out
first. That fact galls you.... suck it up and bleed.
Think about it.... I can pull up you're old "Crimson Lute" post.....
Think about this:

Robert Crim (The Crimson Lute) Nov 13 2003, 10:27 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
From: "Robert Crim (The Crimson Lute)" <***@erols.com> - Find
messages by this author
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:27:43 -0500
Local: Thurs,Nov 13 2003 10:27 am
Subject: Re: Guitars Trades? Two eight string Dake Traphagens
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original |
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On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:17:35 +0000 (UTC), "Espiritu Santo"

Post by Nick Roche
"Robert Crim" The Crimson lute.. Wrote on parchment which was
authenticated with a neon lime green wax seal: "

"The Crimson Lute"..........hmmmmm. I like it. I think I'll keep
it. It's mine.

Robert
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------

It's yours alright, Little Buddy. I planted that seed which has now come
to flower in your brain. You said "It's mine" I say it's "un parfum de
puta", a lingering whiff of dread that once conceived haunts you day
and night.....noise in your head. A small dose from doc.

Ask you friend L.S. but better yet, hold them in front of you plams
facing forward and read those palms.... I did.

Che' de

[Robert Crim]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:11:59 -0500, "William Jennings"

Post by William Jennings
Being a Lutey....you know Galileo Galile's father wrote THE book of the
times on astronomy and was confined to house arrest the rest of his
life for pointing out that free trip to the Pope-puppets.

Your history is as bad as your spelling of Italian.

Vincenzo Galilei (the lutey) and Guilia Ammannati (a torch singer
down at the Bada-Bing of Naples) are the parents of one Galileo
Galilei the heretic astronomer guy and medical school drop out.

Galileo was declared a heretic and had to spend the last 8 of his 78
year long life in rather opulent "house arrest." Since most 78 year
old guys don't get out much anyway, it was no biggie. In 1992 the
Pope admitted that some "errors" were made in the trial, but he did
not say he was sorry. Case closed.

As far as my hands are concerned, they are part of my genetic heritage
as is my devilish good looks, fantastic personality and amazing
intelligence. I try to live with it all.

Robert

[peterbbb]

Post by William Jennings

Post by William D Clinger

And if you think determining what level of difficulty
a piece of music is, just try picking the right teacher.

Our resident statistician has determined that 90% of 'em
do more harm than good.
TroyIII may have supplied some of that data.
Subzero<

And there are some of us who have difficulty with paradoxes of
relativity!
Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark? Sub-Zero,
answer this question right an I'll give you one complimentary free trip
around the sun every year.
Che' de

Speed of dark = speed of light

That is clear to see, unless it's dark, of course.


P

[Toom Tabard]

peterbbb wrote in message ...

Post by peterbbb

Post by William Jennings

Post by William D Clinger

And if you think determining what level of difficulty
a piece of music is, just try picking the right teacher.

Our resident statistician has determined that 90% of 'em
do more harm than good.
TroyIII may have supplied some of that data.
Subzero<

And there are some of us who have difficulty with paradoxes of
relativity!
Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark? Sub-Zero,
answer this question right an I'll give you one complimentary free trip
around the sun every year.
Che' de

Speed of dark = speed of light
That is clear to see, unless it's dark, of course.

Dark has no speed. It doesn't travel. It just hangs around waiting for the
light to go out.
Light leaves at the speed of light, so dark seems to take over the area that
the light is leaving at the speed of light. But it isn't travelling. It is
everywhere, just waiting for the light to leave.
Dark is what fills empty, and dark will only move with empty. So if matter
moves, empty is displaced at the speed of matter and takes its load of dark
with it.

Toom
Toom

[Kent Murdick]

Post by Toom Tabard
So if matter

moves, empty is displaced at the speed of matter and takes its load of
dark
with it. >>>

Sounds like a load of Dark to me. So is that is that why it's so dark
in Scotland all the time? Even the light can stand that god forsaken
hell-hole? Just asking.

[Toom Tabard]

Kent Murdick wrote in message

Post by Toom Tabard

Post by Toom Tabard
So if matter

moves, empty is displaced at the speed of matter and takes its load of dark
with it. >>>
Sounds like a load of Dark to me. So is that is that why it's so dark
in Scotland all the time? Even the light can stand that god forsaken
hell-hole? Just asking.

Well, as we approach our midsummer, it is light here until about 11p.m. Then
it gets almost dark; then as we approach 4a.m, it's light again. How are
things with you ? If you want to get out more in daylight, you should move
to Scotland in June, but in your case, beware of natives carrying wooden
stakes and garlic. Your hours may be strictly limited.

Regards,

Toom

[Nick Roche]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:18:43 +0100, "Toom Tabard"
<***@oparc.brefleur.co.uk> wrote:

->Your hours may be strictly limited.

Excellent - it has started!

[peterbbb]

Post by Toom Tabard
peterbbb wrote in message ...

Post by peterbbb

Post by William Jennings

Post by William D Clinger

And if you think determining what level of difficulty
a piece of music is, just try picking the right teacher.

Our resident statistician has determined that 90% of 'em
do more harm than good.
TroyIII may have supplied some of that data.
Subzero<

And there are some of us who have difficulty with paradoxes of
relativity!
Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark? Sub-Zero,
answer this question right an I'll give you one complimentary free trip
around the sun every year.
Che' de

Speed of dark = speed of light
That is clear to see, unless it's dark, of course.

Dark has no speed. It doesn't travel. It just hangs around waiting for the
light to go out.
Light leaves at the speed of light, so dark seems to take over the area that
the light is leaving at the speed of light. But it isn't travelling. It is
everywhere, just waiting for the light to leave.
Dark is what fills empty, and dark will only move with empty. So if matter
moves, empty is displaced at the speed of matter and takes its load of dark
with it.
Toom
Toom

Yes. of course dark is not anything, it is just the absence of light. It
also is *not* there, hanging about. Dark only exists to explain the
effect that we perceive in the absence of light.

So think of the boundary between dark and light. The light bulb is
switched off, assume it takes no time to go out, and the front of "dark"
or the back end of the light travels at the speed of light.

(Lots of nonsense there but as a wave idea it is fine)

P

[Pizza Hola]

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
peterbbb wrote in message ...

Post by peterbbb

Post by William Jennings

Post by William D Clinger

And if you think determining what level of difficulty
a piece of music is, just try picking the right teacher.

Our resident statistician has determined that 90% of 'em
do more harm than good.
TroyIII may have supplied some of that data.
Subzero<

And there are some of us who have difficulty with paradoxes of
relativity!
Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark? Sub-Zero,
answer this question right an I'll give you one complimentary free trip
around the sun every year.
Che' de

Speed of dark = speed of light
That is clear to see, unless it's dark, of course.

Dark has no speed. It doesn't travel. It just hangs around waiting for the
light to go out.
Light leaves at the speed of light, so dark seems to take over the area that
the light is leaving at the speed of light. But it isn't travelling. It is
everywhere, just waiting for the light to leave.
Dark is what fills empty, and dark will only move with empty. So if matter
moves, empty is displaced at the speed of matter and takes its load of dark
with it.
Toom
Toom

Yes. of course dark is not anything, it is just the absence of light. It
also is *not* there, hanging about. Dark only exists to explain the
effect that we perceive in the absence of light.

Just like heat and cold. Heat is the vibration energy of the atoms, but
there is no such thing as cold...something to keep in mind while jumping
up and down a day when the temperature drops ;-)

Post by peterbbb
So think of the boundary between dark and light. The light bulb is
switched off, assume it takes no time to go out, and the front of "dark"
or the back end of the light travels at the speed of light.
(Lots of nonsense there but as a wave idea it is fine)
P

[Toom Tabard]

peterbbb wrote in message ...

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
Dark has no speed. It doesn't travel. It just hangs around waiting for the
light to go out.
Light leaves at the speed of light, so dark seems to take over the area that
the light is leaving at the speed of light. But it isn't travelling. It is
everywhere, just waiting for the light to leave.
Dark is what fills empty, and dark will only move with empty. So if matter
moves, empty is displaced at the speed of matter and takes its load of dark
with it.
Toom

Yes. of course dark is not anything, it is just the absence of light. It
also is *not* there, hanging about. Dark only exists to explain the
effect that we perceive in the absence of light.
So think of the boundary between dark and light. The light bulb is
switched off, assume it takes no time to go out, and the front of "dark"
or the back end of the light travels at the speed of light.
(Lots of nonsense there but as a wave idea it is fine)

Nope; take a cube of light at ground level, build four walls, a roof, a
doorway and a door (no windows). Go into the room and close the door. It is
dark. There is no source of dark; the dark was just awaiting the exclusion
of the source of light. To light the room you must provide a source of
light. Provide this and turn it on; the room is light. Turn off the source
of light; the room becomes dark despite the absence of a source of dark; the
dark was there awaiting the absence of light.I spent many years researching
a source of dark. I was the Edison of the dark bulb. I thought I could make
my fortune inventing the dark bulb. I intended to sell it to those on the
night-shift, to enable them to sleep during the day. It was a fool's errand.
There is no source of dark; it is just there awaiting the absence of light.

Toom

[peterbbb]

Post by Toom Tabard
peterbbb wrote in message ...

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
Dark has no speed. It doesn't travel. It just hangs around waiting for

the

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
light to go out.
Light leaves at the speed of light, so dark seems to take over the area

that

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
the light is leaving at the speed of light. But it isn't travelling. It

is

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
everywhere, just waiting for the light to leave.
Dark is what fills empty, and dark will only move with empty. So if

matter

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
moves, empty is displaced at the speed of matter and takes its load of

dark

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
with it.
Toom

Yes. of course dark is not anything, it is just the absence of light. It
also is *not* there, hanging about. Dark only exists to explain the
effect that we perceive in the absence of light.
So think of the boundary between dark and light. The light bulb is
switched off, assume it takes no time to go out, and the front of "dark"
or the back end of the light travels at the speed of light.
(Lots of nonsense there but as a wave idea it is fine)

Nope; take a cube of light at ground level, build four walls, a roof, a
doorway and a door (no windows). Go into the room and close the door. It is
dark. There is no source of dark; the dark was just awaiting the exclusion
of the source of light. To light the room you must provide a source of
light. Provide this and turn it on; the room is light. Turn off the source
of light; the room becomes dark despite the absence of a source of dark; the
dark was there awaiting the absence of light.I spent many years researching
a source of dark. I was the Edison of the dark bulb. I thought I could make
my fortune inventing the dark bulb. I intended to sell it to those on the
night-shift, to enable them to sleep during the day. It was a fool's errand.
There is no source of dark; it is just there awaiting the absence of light.
Toom

Are you just having a game?? Or are you in any way serious?

Of course there is no source of dark. It is just the absence of light.

No,you must just be joking - no one could be as silly as this.

Bye

P

[William Jennings]

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
peterbbb wrote in message ...

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
Dark has no speed. It doesn't travel. It just hangs around waiting for

the

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
light to go out.
Light leaves at the speed of light, so dark seems to take over the area

that

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
the light is leaving at the speed of light. But it isn't

travelling. It

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
is

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
everywhere, just waiting for the light to leave.
Dark is what fills empty, and dark will only move with empty. So if

matter

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
moves, empty is displaced at the speed of matter and takes its load of

dark

Post by peterbbb

Post by Toom Tabard
with it.
Toom

Yes. of course dark is not anything, it is just the absence of light. It
also is *not* there, hanging about. Dark only exists to explain the
effect that we perceive in the absence of light.
So think of the boundary between dark and light. The light bulb is
switched off, assume it takes no time to go out, and the front of "dark"
or the back end of the light travels at the speed of light.
(Lots of nonsense there but as a wave idea it is fine)

Nope; take a cube of light at ground level, build four walls, a roof, a
doorway and a door (no windows). Go into the room and close the door. It is
dark. There is no source of dark; the dark was just awaiting the exclusion
of the source of light. To light the room you must provide a source of
light. Provide this and turn it on; the room is light. Turn off the source
of light; the room becomes dark despite the absence of a source of dark; the
dark was there awaiting the absence of light.I spent many years researching
a source of dark. I was the Edison of the dark bulb. I thought I could make
my fortune inventing the dark bulb. I intended to sell it to those on the
night-shift, to enable them to sleep during the day. It was a fool's errand.
There is no source of dark; it is just there awaiting the absence of light.
Toom

Are you just having a game?? Or are you in any way serious?
Of course there is no source of dark. It is just the absence of light.
No,you must just be joking - no one could be as silly as this.
Bye<

Don't kid yourself, Toom has all the calculations and he's absolutely
right!

Che' de

[Nick Roche]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:51:56 -0500, "William Jennings"
<***@texas.net> in his lifelong quest for your enlightenment
wrote:

-> what is the Speed of Dark?

So now should we deal with the train stopping every time it hits a
fly? (There must be a moment around the time the fly encounters the
train when both are stationary (or is that stationery maybe) but not
in a station even though no one pulled the Che'n!

It is one thing for Kent to take on John Williams fans - the Scots
could turn out to be worthier opponents.

[William D Clinger]

Post by William Jennings
Soooo, if the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s ( approximately
300,000 kilometers per second ) what is the Speed of Dark? Sub-Zero,
answer this question right an I'll give you one complimentary free trip
around the sun every year.

That's a scary ride. Toom's a brave man.

I apologize for missing some of the down-home repartee.
My Internet access will be sporadic this week.

Will

[t***@lycos.com]

News groups such as this are a good place to have fun but are too full
of would be's like yourself to ask for serious help. Here, the debater
rules over everyone else. If you can out debate me which you surely
can, I lose. It doesn't matter which one of us has more expertise. It's
not about ability to play or teach, it's about writing ability. There
is no filter system here. Every now and then one of the debaters will
start their own group and moderate it so ones who disagree with them
will no be allowed in thus giving them the advantage. Mr. Jennings, I
hear is a very good player and in person would probably have a lot to
offer but here he has learned to just have some fun with the other
writers. Todd Tipton has also learned this. Will Clinger is a very good
writer and debater but is a terrible guitarist and composer. Never the
less, here he is king. Good players are not always good teachers but
terrible players should be avoided at all costs.

TroyIII

[William Jennings]

Post by t***@lycos.com
News groups such as this are a good place to have fun but are too full
of would be's like yourself to ask for serious help. Here, the debater
rules over everyone else. If you can out debate me which you surely
can, I lose. It doesn't matter which one of us has more expertise. It's
not about ability to play or teach, it's about writing ability. There
is no filter system here. Every now and then one of the debaters will
start their own group and moderate it so ones who disagree with them
will no be allowed in thus giving them the advantage. Mr. Jennings, I
hear is a very good player and in person would probably have a lot to
offer but here he has learned to just have some fun with the other
writers. Todd Tipton has also learned this. Will Clinger is a very good
writer and debater but is a terrible guitarist and composer. Never the
less, here he is king. Good players are not always good teachers but
terrible players should be avoided at all costs.
TroyIII<

But Nick Roche correctly answered the question about the "Speed of
Dark" Around here it's King For A Day, you know, Chicken Today,
Feathers Tomorrow.....

Hey, a rebel member of RMCG is in town an I need to touch base with him
before it gets too late... later.

Very sharp post..... it's about time for Snow White ( who has drifted )
and Hisa$$$whoissorry to show up.

Che' de

[Miguel de Maria]

Troy,
aren't you the guy that likes to make fun of every newbie post here?
And now mourning the state of this place?

[t***@lycos.com]

Post by Miguel de Maria
Troy,
aren't you the guy that likes to make fun of every newbie post here?
And now mourning the state of this place?

I have never made fun of anyone in my life and I don't appreciate being
falsley accused of doing so. I have been a beacon of light in this so
called community and you, yourself have admitted privately that you
have learned a great deal from me so why all of a sudden have you
turned on me? I have gone out of my way to help each newbie that comes
here no matter how stupid their questions are. Can you say that? I dare
you to name just one thing that I have said that was out of place. I
DARE YOU!YOU!!!

TroyIII

[Miguel de Maria]

Hey, if you want to change your image, that's fine with me.

[William Jennings]

Post by t***@lycos.com

Post by Miguel de Maria
Troy,
aren't you the guy that likes to make fun of every newbie post here?
And now mourning the state of this place?

I have never made fun of anyone in my life and I don't appreciate being
falsley accused of doing so. I have been a beacon of light in this so
called community and you, yourself have admitted privately that you
have learned a great deal from me so why all of a sudden have you
turned on me? I have gone out of my way to help each newbie that comes
here no matter how stupid their questions are. Can you say that? I dare
you to name just one thing that I have said that was out of place. I
DARE YOU!YOU!!!
TroyIII<

Just put Miguel de Maria on Ignore, I did! That'll fix him!

San Petadoggy de La Che'
Scribe and O.J.T Alchemist ...
Owner - Operator of http://www.snitch-n-bitch.com/
Note: The Site is currently unavailable experiencing technical
difficulties an Overluted.
Mirror site is maintained by Betsey Bruja at http://www.bitch-n-pick.org
Adjust your browser settings.
Buy Our Two-Faced toilet paper and use both sides.

P.S. Love

[William D Clinger]

...Will Clinger is a very good
writer and debater but is a terrible guitarist and composer.

You're half right. I guess my writing and debating skills
might look good when judged by the standards of this comic
strip.

Never the less, here he is king.

If I were king, some of these characters might be headless.

Subzero

[William Jennings]

Post by William D Clinger

...Will Clinger is a very good
writer and debater but is a terrible guitarist and composer.

You're half right. I guess my writing and debating skills
might look good when judged by the standards of this comic
strip.<

What the hell.... a man leaves his machine a few hours for a little
lunch and substance abuse with friends and returns to find THIS? I'll
get in your down-home a$$ in a nanosecond......How's your Mama and
them's biscuits?!

We (Not You) are (were) guitarist and talk with our hands. On reason I
was attracted to music at an early age was it was better than words. We
both know if you're a little skillful with words you can twist words and
ideas into such a convoluted pretzels their concepts are meaningless.
We see the masters in Washington D.C. do it everyday. Btw, will you ever
retire from Werk? We could could fishing.... in Aruba!

"Human beings do not live in the objective world alone, nor alone in the
world of social activity as ordinarily understood, but are very much at
the mercy of the particular language which has become the medium of
expression for their society. It is quite an illusion to imagine that
one adjusts to reality essentially without the use of language and that
language is merely an incidental means of solving specific problems of
communication or reflection. The fact of the matter is that the 'real
world' is to a large extent unconsciously built up on the language
habits of the group ... We see and hear and otherwise experience very
largely as we do because the language habits of our community predispose
certain choices of interpretation." - Edward Sapir (1929)

Post by William D Clinger

Never the less, here he is king.<

I don't subscribe to that notion. :-) You can be King, I could care
less. I am Jumbo Mumbo having fun>
.

Post by William D Clinger
If I were king, some of these characters might be headless.<

As a rejoinder to the suggestion that something impossible as William D.
Clinger becoming King could happen, consider......

Jumbo Mumbo Wm. D. Jennings might say....Yeah Right, Willy..... If your
grandmother had balls she'd be your grandfather!

" If wishes were horses then beggars would ride." If we were outside I
could throw you in front of a sanitation truck."

"He who learns and learns and yet does not what he knows, is one who
plows and plows yet never sows." Wm. D. Clinger

"Behold, Che' de Petadoggy...dark hearts dwell where branches
meet...anointed dagger, plunge thee deep in King Clinger"
Che' de la Petadoggy Emperor ( And don't be talking about my new
threads! )

Woooops, I'm starting to scare myself my damned self now. I better get
back to studying the Laws of Inertia and plucking guitarist. :-)

But before I leave let me give you a special send off from Seadrift,
Texas.... you remember Texas right Cowboy?

"When shrimps whistle !?"

San Petadoggy de La Che' Emperor
Scribe and PhD Alchemist ...Please excuse my dust in the wind and any
semblance of narcissism, and ego!
Owner - Operator of http://www.snitch-n-bitch.com/
Note: The Site is currently unavailable experiencing technical
difficulties an Overluted.
Mirror site is maintained by Betsey Bruja at http://www.bitch-n-pick.org
Adjust your browser settings Big Time!

[William D Clinger]

Post by William D Clinger
You're half right. I guess my writing and debating skills
might look good when judged by the standards of this comic
strip.

Indeed, my writing is so poor that I omitted the implied
"though" between the first and second sentences above.

I apologize to anyone who couldn't figure out which half
of TroyIII's assertion was correct.

I also apologize to the pianists who read my cross-posts.
Now that I realize I was cross-posting, I have removed
their newsgroup from this message, so they'll never see
my apologies. Oh well. Sorry about that.

Subzero

[t***@lycos.com]

I hearby order everyone on this nesgroup to ignore William D. Clinger.
He is guilty of passing himself off as a guitarist. He has a technique
that is similar to a chicken clawing at the strings with it's talons. I
say this with all due respect to him and hope he doesn't take it
personally.

TroyIII

[William D Clinger]

I say this with all due respect to him and hope he
doesn't take it personally.

No problem! It's not as though you were a real
guitarist or person.

Will

[William Jennings]

Post by William D Clinger

I say this with all due respect to him and hope he
doesn't take it personally.

No problem! It's not as though you were a real
guitarist or person.
Will Jr.<

I am.

Will Senor! :-)

[David Raleigh Arnold]

You're half right. I guess my writing and debating skills might look
good when judged by the standards of this comic strip.

Indeed, my writing is so poor that I omitted the implied "though" between
the first and second sentences above.
I apologize to anyone who couldn't figure out which half of TroyIII's
assertion was correct.
I also apologize to the pianists who read my cross-posts.

Never apologize for not cross posting. It is always good to
not cross post. daveA

[William Jennings]

Hey Chilly Willy,

Have you ever heard this old slave/werk song from the Central State Farm
in Sugarland, Texas

"Ain't No More Cane on the Brazos?"

Being from West Texas you might not have heard it in it's original
flavor. I've noticed several folks have recorded it over the years but
lack the flavor of the real thing.... diluted white boy stuff. At any
rate you might look for " Rounder CD-1510 - Afro-American Spirituals,
Work Songs, and Ballads." for an authentic recording.

At any rate, imo, it's the best song to come out of Texas, bar anything
and takes you right back down on those bottom lands 100 years ago. It's
in that old call and responce form of slave songs

Che' de

[William D Clinger]

Post by William Jennings
Have you ever heard this old slave/werk song from the Central State Farm
in Sugarland, Texas
"Ain't No More Cane on the Brazos?"

Chris Smither recorded a nice version, which led into
his own "Mail Order Mystics". That recording gives me
a smile every time I listen. My favorite ex-wife liked
it too.

I've heard the real thing, too.

Will

[MattW]

That seems worth checking out. Troyll? Any comments?

[MattW]

I am speaking of stats spoken of earlier in this thread regarding 90%
of teachers doing harm than good. Can you refer the post? Thanks, matt

[walt-ng]

Post by Don A. Gilmore
Get a teacher. That's what they're for.
Don
Kansas City

For many, a teacher (piano, guitar or whatever) is simply not an option.

[Don A. Gilmore]

Post by walt-ng
For many, a teacher (piano, guitar or whatever) is simply not an option.

Why?

Don
Kansas City

[William Jennings]

Post by walt-ng
For many, a teacher (piano, guitar or whatever) is simply not an option.

Why?
Don
Kansas City <

Ever live in Manter, Kansas? Paint Rock, Texas?

[walt-ng]

Post by walt-ng

Post by walt-ng
For many, a teacher (piano, guitar or whatever) is simply not an

option.

Why?
Don

Ever live in Manter, Kansas? Paint Rock, Texas?

Also, for some on fixed incomes, lessons just won't fit into the budget.

[William Jennings]

Post by walt-ng

Post by walt-ng

Post by walt-ng
For many, a teacher (piano, guitar or whatever) is simply not an

option.

Why?
Don

Ever live in Manter, Kansas? Paint Rock, Texas?

Also, for some on fixed incomes, lessons just won't fit into the

budget.<

The is a myth... there are always musicians around who help a serious
student gratis... no questions asked. They can be very demanding.
There may be one close by you..... it is up to you to find that teacher.
I can give you some ways and means of finding one. Interestingly, in my
experience, these are some of the world's best teachers.

Che' de

[jeff carter]

Post by William Jennings
The is a myth... there are always musicians around who help a serious
student gratis... no questions asked. They can be very demanding.
There may be one close by you..... it is up to you to find that teacher.
I can give you some ways and means of finding one. Interestingly, in my
experience, these are some of the world's best teachers.

So true. I found one very early in my studies. David Barison was(is?) a
fantastic player and a wonderful teacher, and taught me for two years,
until I left for college, for free. He had previously taught at Duke U.
and the University of North Carolina, and normally charged the
exorbitant rate (at the time) of $20 for an hour lesson. I am forever
indebted.

[William Jennings]

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings
The is a myth... there are always musicians around who help a serious
student gratis... no questions asked. They can be very demanding.
There may be one close by you..... it is up to you to find that teacher.
I can give you some ways and means of finding one. Interestingly, in my
experience, these are some of the world's best teachers.

So true. I found one very early in my studies. David Barison was(is?) a
fantastic player and a wonderful teacher, and taught me for two years,
until I left for college, for free. He had previously taught at Duke U.
and the University of North Carolina, and normally charged the
exorbitant rate (at the time) of $20 for an hour lesson. I am forever
indebted.<

The great thing about these teachers is they teach you how to work and
they know how to control you. You might not believe it but I was....
well some might say, a little hard to control. :-) Did David Barison
study with Lagoya by any chance? I seem to recall "Barison - A.L."
Live in Paris maybe? Myself, forever indebted for lessons money can't
buy.

Che' de

[jeff carter]

Post by t***@lycos.com

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings
The is a myth... there are always musicians around who help a

serious

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings
student gratis... no questions asked. They can be very demanding.
There may be one close by you..... it is up to you to find that

teacher.

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings
I can give you some ways and means of finding one. Interestingly,

in my

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings
experience, these are some of the world's best teachers.

So true. I found one very early in my studies. David Barison was(is?)

a

Post by jeff carter
fantastic player and a wonderful teacher, and taught me for two years,
until I left for college, for free. He had previously taught at Duke

U.

Post by jeff carter
and the University of North Carolina, and normally charged the
exorbitant rate (at the time) of $20 for an hour lesson. I am forever
indebted.<

The great thing about these teachers is they teach you how to work and
they know how to control you. You might not believe it but I was....
well some might say, a little hard to control. :-)

Really? I can't imagine. Me, I was a pretty malleable student, but
always got a hard time from Shearer for my ponytail.

Post by t***@lycos.com
Did David Barison
study with Lagoya by any chance? I seem to recall "Barison - A.L."
Live in Paris maybe? Myself, forever indebted for lessons money can't
buy.

David did study with Lagoya, but no, he didn't take Presti's place.
(Wasn't that L. Boyd? :-)) He had me hooked up to study w/A.L. in Nice
the summer before college, but I couldn't afford the trip and worked
with Jesus Silva instead.

[William Jennings]

Post by William Jennings
The great thing about these teachers is they teach you how to work and
they know how to control you. You might not believe it but I was....
well some might say, a little hard to control. :-)

Really? I can't imagine.<

Imagine.... my first serious teachers were less than yours. I was
serious and began speaking point blank.

Me, I was a pretty malleable student, but

always got a hard time from Shearer for my ponytail.<

Hell, A.S. didn't have much hair when I saw him in 1976.

Post by William Jennings
Did David Barison
study with Lagoya by any chance? I seem to recall "Barison - A.L."
Live in Paris maybe? Myself, forever indebted for lessons money can't
buy.

David did study with Lagoya, but no, he didn't take Presti's place.
(Wasn't that L. Boyd? :-)) He had me hooked up to study w/A.L. in Nice
the summer before college, but I couldn't afford the trip and worked
with Jesus Silva instead.<

Then you know Ponce :-) I couldn't afford those trips either, that's
why I became a guitar bum. In one case a teacher in Brazil, noticing
red marks all over my face, neck, arms and hands, asked me how I had
arrived... (unannounced)......?

I said the coconut barge from Panama. It was a free trip, had I known
all the insects that would crawl out of those coconuts at night, I would
have rather walked. It was "No-Class" you slept on the coconuts, drank
coconut milk for water and ate flying fish that landed on the deck. In
the span of three months I had my own business, was connected and making
a little $ and paid my back lessons in cash although it was not
required. I couldn't have managed that in Winston-Salem.

How? I found an old International school bus, got it running and
painted up as a tour bus. My girfriend spoke Port., French, Italian,
English and Spainish and we met the tourist ships in bahia. When we
were not working I played guitar by the bus. :-)
Very shortly, we were getting kick-backs to stop our bus at certain
corners. Her daddy owned a small store and stocked a few items I knew
most tourist wanted that were hard to find. We were making (enough to
get by) money....coming and going. The permits were in my girlfriend's
name. I worked for her. :-)

Che' de

[jeff carter]

Post by William Jennings

Post by William Jennings
The great thing about these teachers is they teach you how to work

and

Post by William Jennings
they know how to control you. You might not believe it but I

was....

Post by William Jennings
well some might say, a little hard to control. :-)

Really? I can't imagine.<

Imagine.... my first serious teachers were less than yours. I was
serious and began speaking point blank.

Oh, I can imagine. I was being facetious. But you lost me --your first
serious teachers were less what than mine?

Post by William Jennings
Me, I was a pretty malleable student, but

always got a hard time from Shearer for my ponytail.<

Hell, A.S. didn't have much hair when I saw him in 1976.

I'm sure he had even less in '81. To be honest, my first impression
was, "if Wally Cox ever needs a stunt double..." :-)

Post by William Jennings

Post by William Jennings
Did David Barison
study with Lagoya by any chance? I seem to recall "Barison - A.L."
Live in Paris maybe? Myself, forever indebted for lessons money

can't

Post by William Jennings
buy.

David did study with Lagoya, but no, he didn't take Presti's place.
(Wasn't that L. Boyd? :-)) He had me hooked up to study w/A.L. in

Nice

the summer before college, but I couldn't afford the trip and worked
with Jesus Silva instead.<

Then you know Ponce :-) I couldn't afford those trips either, that's
why I became a guitar bum.

Silva did talk about his friend, Ponce. Segovia, too. Silva was not
what you'd call a great player or technician, but he was an impassioned
"artiste". He was also a poet and a dramatist. The biggest impression
he made on me was his whole approach to interpretation.

Post by William Jennings
In one case a teacher in Brazil, noticing
red marks all over my face, neck, arms and hands, asked me how I had
arrived... (unannounced)......? I said the coconut barge from Panama.
It was a free trip, had I known
all the insects that would crawl out of those coconuts at night, I would
have rather walked. It was "No-Class" you slept on the coconuts, drank
coconut milk for water and ate flying fish that landed on the deck. In
the span of three months I had my own business, was connected and making
a little $ and paid my back lessons in cash although it was not
required. I couldn't have managed that in Winston-Salem.

I had completely forgotten until I read your barge story, but at one
point I'd actually looked into getting passage on a ship and working my
way across to the south of France that Summer. After weighing my
options, it became obvious that the hour-or-so drive to Wake Forest U.
to work with Silva was the path of least resistance. And no coconut
bugs...

[William Jennings]

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings

Post by William Jennings
The great thing about these teachers is they teach you how to work

and

Post by William Jennings
they know how to control you. You might not believe it but I

was....

Post by William Jennings
well some might say, a little hard to control. :-)

Really? I can't imagine.<

Imagine.... my first serious teachers were less than yours. I was
serious and began speaking point blank.

Oh, I can imagine. I was being facetious. But you lost me --your first
serious teachers were less what than mine?<

They were minor minus type 60's players and teachers lost in the
Segovian fog.

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings
Me, I was a pretty malleable student, but

always got a hard time from Shearer for my ponytail.<

Hell, A.S. didn't have much hair when I saw him in 1976.<

I'm sure he had even less in '81. To be honest, my first impression
was, "if Wally Cox ever needs a stunt double..." :-)<

But he did have force of personality.

<Snip>

Post by jeff carter
Silva did talk about his friend, Ponce. Segovia, too. Silva was not
what you'd call a great player or technician, but he was an

impassioned

Post by jeff carter
"artiste". He was also a poet and a dramatist. The biggest impression
he made on me was his whole approach to interpretation.<

I heard David Perry say good things about him long ago. Siva was
excellent for the times in the U.S.A.

Post by jeff carter
I had completely forgotten until I read your barge story, but at one
point I'd actually looked into getting passage on a ship and working my
way across to the south of France that Summer. After weighing my
options, it became obvious that the hour-or-so drive to Wake Forest U.
to work with Silva was the path of least resistance. And no coconut
bugs...<

But tonight, 35 years later I can still see it as though it were only a
few months ago. It was just a tough week. My alternative was to to pay
$50.00 and fly from Colon to Bogota, another $150.00 to Recife and that
the bus to Salvador. I showed up on a coconut barge and saved $200.00.
That would last me a month at that time in Brazil. I've still got the
reruns in my mind and lots of mileage out of those stories. I learned
to make arapas and fried plantians on that barge ride and still make
them today.

When someone ask how I learned to make them...... I've got the Bugtussle
Barge story. Believe me, I've done stupider things..... there are no
witnesses (wifes's tales)

Che' de

[jeff carter]

Post by William Jennings

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings

Post by William Jennings
The great thing about these teachers is they teach you how to

work

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings
and

Post by William Jennings
they know how to control you. You might not believe it but I

was....

Post by William Jennings
well some might say, a little hard to control. :-)

Really? I can't imagine.<

Imagine.... my first serious teachers were less than yours. I was
serious and began speaking point blank.

Oh, I can imagine. I was being facetious. But you lost me --your first
serious teachers were less what than mine?<

They were minor minus type 60's players and teachers lost in the
Segovian fog.

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings
Me, I was a pretty malleable student, but

always got a hard time from Shearer for my ponytail.<

Hell, A.S. didn't have much hair when I saw him in 1976.<

I'm sure he had even less in '81. To be honest, my first impression
was, "if Wally Cox ever needs a stunt double..." :-)<

But he did have force of personality.

I was kidding about Wally Cox. Shearer impressed me to no end, starting
on day one.

Post by William Jennings
<Snip>

Post by jeff carter
Silva did talk about his friend, Ponce. Segovia, too. Silva <

I heard David Perry say good things about him long ago. Siva was
excellent for the times in the U.S.A.

I got to study with Silva for a only few weeks the summer after he left
NCSA. David Perry spent (I'm guessing) 4 years with him, and is
infinitely better qualified than I to comment on the man. I never met
David, but I think he might have also been a student of Barison's.

--JC

[William Jennings]

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings
But he did have force of personality.

I was kidding about Wally Cox. Shearer impressed me to no end,

starting

Post by jeff carter
on day one.<

I attended a lecture A.S. gave on study techniques..late 70's. I later
asked him a few questions and he spent another hour with us discussing
his concepts. That became a very animated afternoon.... it was hot and
humind with a/c problems but some of us were wide awake an energized
like the bunny. Great stuff!

Post by jeff carter

Post by William Jennings
<Snip>

I got to study with Silva for a only few weeks the summer after he left
NCSA. David Perry spent (I'm guessing) 4 years with him, and is
infinitely better qualified than I to comment on the man. I never met
David, but I think he might have also been a student of Barison's.<
D.P. impressed me more than anyone in D.C. at that time ( excepting

Carlos Ramos, the flamenco) He was the first local that could really
play well besides John Marlboro (sp.) at American Un. I was studing
with J.M. who found out I was seeing D.P....Whoops, no more J.M. lessons
for Che' de Guy. :-) I left D.C. shortly thereafter and never looked
back. I have thought, from time to time, about that Hauser J.M. had.
It was the first really impressive CG I'd ever played. I was never
quite taken with Jose Ramirez guitars that were the rage at the time.
I figured the best ones were taken, or spoken for, long before they
arrived on our shores...rightfully so. :-)

Che' de Guy

[eromlignod]

Post by walt-ng

Post by walt-ng

Post by walt-ng
For many, a teacher (piano, guitar or whatever) is simply not an

option.

Why?
Don

Ever live in Manter, Kansas? Paint Rock, Texas?

Also, for some on fixed incomes, lessons just won't fit into the budget.

I see. It sounds like one of those, "I want to be an electrical
engineer, but I don't have any money and I don't like to study",
situations. Sometimes you've got to put your nose to the grindstone to
get what you want. There's not a free shortcut for everything in life.

I can't help but notice that no matter how poor a family is in America,
they always seem to have enough money for cable TV and cigarettes.
Piano lessons are really not very expensive at all.

Don
Kansas City

[Miguel de Maria]

Not to mention the fact that to make rice and beans for a family is
about $2, but to get a few Value Combo Meals from McDonalds will set
you back at least $12-15, and make you fat besides. And water is
cheaper than King Kobra. But... after all we have to take care of the
neccesities first.

[Bert]

Post by Don A. Gilmore
Get a teacher. That's what they're for.
Don

If by "that" you mean to properly answer questions from a student, then
yes, that is one of the things that a student should expect from a teacher.
Unfortunately, while all music teachers are themselves musicians, that doesn't
mean that they are good teachers.

[eromlignod]

Post by Bert

Post by Don A. Gilmore
Get a teacher. That's what they're for.
Don

If by "that" you mean to properly answer questions from a student, then
yes, that is one of the things that a student should expect from a teacher.
Unfortunately, while all music teachers are themselves musicians, that doesn't
mean that they are good teachers.

Well then I guess I don't understand what you're asking for, kid. Do
you want a universal list of all known pieces in order of difficulty?
There is no such catalog. Some parts of a piece may be harder than
others and for different reasons. Chopin's ballade in Fm, for example,
starts out at little more than an intermediate level. After several
pages it progresses in difficulty until it reaches an extremely
advanced, almost virtuosic level.

The only person who knows if piece X is more difficult than piece Y,
and *where* and *why* it is more difficult, is someone who has learned
both of them. Anything less is blind speculation.

You can categorically declare that, "Not all teachers are good
teachers", but that isn't a particularly insightful revelation. You
can say that about any subject. If you want to learn to play the piano
from a book, online, or as a correspondence course, then I wouldn't
expect you to advance very far. There's more to it than just seeing
how many pieces you can learn.

I guess it just depends on how far you wish to go. If you are content
with playing intermediate pieces in a mediocre fashion, then learning
with no teacher at all is probably adequate. But if you really want to
learn good technique and eventually play at an advanced level, you
should seek a qualified instructor.

Don
Kansas City

[t***@lycos.com]

Post by Bert
a beginner's lever piece that might feel
difficult for somebody that's only been playing for a few months will be
perceived as easy by somebody that's been playing for five or ten years.

What a genius! I think what you're saying is that an experienced player
will have an easier time paying a piece of music than a beginner. How
long did it take for you to come up with this brilliant conclusion? Not
since Bob Ashley has someone written so much in one post and said so
little.

TroyIII

[Bert]

Post by t***@lycos.com
What a genius! I think what you're saying is that an experienced player
will have an easier time paying a piece of music than a beginner.

Well, yes, that is one of the things that I said, but that was not the point of
my post. Sorry you missed it.

[e***@yahoo.com]

Post by Bert
When performing a musical instrument, the facility that the performer has in
playing a piece is directly related to the experience that he or she has with
their instrument. For example, a beginner's lever piece that might feel
difficult for somebody that's only been playing for a few months will be
perceived as easy by somebody that's been playing for five or ten years. In
addition to that I think that while it's good to challenge oneself with pieces
that are slightly beyond reach, I also believe that attempting to play pieces
that are too complex in relation to one's current ability will have a
detrimental effect in one's musical development. So, given that the perceived
musical complexity is relative to the performer's experience, and given that
everybody's level of musical development will be different, how does one go
about coming up with a valid measure of the complexity of a piece? Personally,
I feel that if one or two pages of music can't be learned reasonably well
within 60 to 90 minutes, then the music is too difficult. By reasonably well I
don't mean that it needs to be up to performance speed, but it should have all
the right notes, with the proper note durations, and articulation.
Any comments on this subject are appreciated.

In order for us to progress, every new piece must be a little beyond
your current capabilities, technique, etc. You may learn a piece in 90
minutes but how long will it take you to learn how to play that piece
"correctly" according to it's period, and play it "musically" so the
listener hears the music and not the guitar player.

There is a feeling we get about pieces that says this one is difficult
but I can learn it if I apply myself, or it is beyond you current
technique. If you drop a piece or study, make it temporaray and go
back to it. I dropped Carcassi's study #6 because I was having trouble
with two lines of music shifting from thumb to ima but I will get back
to it.

I second the recommendation to get a Classical Guitar teacher but also
suggest you forget some of the unnecessary criteria you are using to
gauge your success and/or progress.

Ed S.

[Bert]

Post by e***@yahoo.com
In order for us to progress, every new piece must be a little beyond
your current capabilities, technique, etc.

I have found that every piece that I play is beyond the musical capabilities
that I had before I attempted the piece. No matter how simple a piece of music
appears to be, I always find something to learn from it.

Post by e***@yahoo.com
You may learn a piece in 90
minutes but how long will it take you to learn how to play that piece
"correctly" according to it's period, and play it "musically"

Absolutely

Post by e***@yahoo.com
so the listener hears the music and not the guitar player.

Or the piano player. The point that I was trying to make with my post is
instrument agnostic.

Post by e***@yahoo.com
I second the recommendation to get a Classical Guitar teacher but also
suggest you forget some of the unnecessary criteria you are using to
gauge your success and/or progress.

The point of my post had nothing to do with gauging my success and/or progress,
but rather on coming up with a measurable way of determining a piece's
difficulty. At this, my method ("one should be able to play a piece of music
'correctly' in 60-90 minutes") is flawed because of it's binary nature: It can
only determine if a piece is too difficult (can't be played in 60-90 minutes),
or not. It doesn't gauge degrees of difficulty, and it's performance based,
i.e. after the fact. Of course after playing for a while one develops a sense
where one can look at a piece of music and determine if it's within range or
not, but even that is not accurate; many times I have played music which while
at first appeared to be a easy, it actually turned out to be quite difficult to
perform well. And finally the 60-90 minutes range is totally arbitrary and
based solely in my own experience.

[Pizza Hola]

Post by Bert
When performing a musical instrument, the facility that the performer has in
playing a piece is directly related to the experience that he or she has with
their instrument. For example, a beginner's lever piece that might feel
difficult for somebody that's only been playing for a few months will be
perceived as easy by somebody that's been playing for five or ten years. In
addition to that I think that while it's good to challenge oneself with pieces
that are slightly beyond reach, I also believe that attempting to play pieces
that are too complex in relation to one's current ability will have a
detrimental effect in one's musical development.

If you by "musical development" mean some sort of cognitive
hearing-shaping-playing music thing, I don't agree it can be
detrimental...I think it's always an expander. but if you mean that if
one is too technically challenged in a piece then one shouldn't play it,
I sure agree. Still and imho, we have to play pieces that are hard or
complex sometimes to broaden our horizons, technically and cognitively
(lacking the right words).

So, given that the perceived

Post by Bert
musical complexity is relative to the performer's experience, and given that
everybody's level of musical development will be different, how does one go
about coming up with a valid measure of the complexity of a piece?

When I think about complexity in music I always think about the literary
parallell Dostoevsky - dense works, rich with ideas all packed up. Many
things happening at the same time. I suspect it's as hard to be analytic
about musical complexity as it is in literature.

Personally,

Post by Bert
I feel that if one or two pages of music can't be learned reasonably well
within 60 to 90 minutes, then the music is too difficult. By reasonably well I
don't mean that it needs to be up to performance speed, but it should have all
the right notes, with the proper note durations, and articulation.

Well I can agree with that.

Post by Bert
Any comments on this subject are appreciated.

[Bert]

Post by Pizza Hola

Post by Bert
In
addition to that I think that while it's good to challenge oneself with pieces
that are slightly beyond reach, I also believe that attempting to play pieces
that are too complex in relation to one's current ability will have a
detrimental effect in one's musical development.

If you by "musical development" mean some sort of cognitive
hearing-shaping-playing music thing, I don't agree it can be
detrimental...I think it's always an expander. but if you mean that if
one is too technically challenged in a piece then one shouldn't play it,
I sure agree. Still and imho, we have to play pieces that are hard or
complex sometimes to broaden our horizons, technically and cognitively
(lacking the right words).

I misstyped. I shouldn't have written "too complex" as musical complexity was
not the point of my post. I should have written "too difficult". While
musical complexity and performance difficulty usually go hand in hand, that's
not always necesarily the case.

Post by Pizza Hola

Post by Bert
Personally,
I feel that if one or two pages of music can't be learned reasonably well
within 60 to 90 minutes, then the music is too difficult. By reasonably well I
don't mean that it needs to be up to performance speed, but it should have all
the right notes, with the proper note durations, and articulation.

Well I can agree with that.

Good. I have wondered if other musicians felt the way I do, or if I was way
out of base in making that assesment. Of course, the fact that you and I agree
doesn't make us right. I'd like to point out that for me the 90 minutes mark
is actually out of range, as I find that it's rare that I can keep my
concentration for that long. It's usually more around 60 minutes, and
occasionally 75 minutes. It's a very rare occasion when I can practice for
longer than that and still feel that I am being productive.

[Steve Freides]

Post by Bert
When performing a musical instrument, the facility that the performer has in
playing a piece is directly related to the experience that he or she has with
their instrument. For example, a beginner's lever piece that might feel
difficult for somebody that's only been playing for a few months will be
perceived as easy by somebody that's been playing for five or ten years. In
addition to that I think that while it's good to challenge oneself with pieces
that are slightly beyond reach, I also believe that attempting to play pieces
that are too complex in relation to one's current ability will have a
detrimental effect in one's musical development. So, given that the perceived
musical complexity is relative to the performer's experience, and given that
everybody's level of musical development will be different, how does one go
about coming up with a valid measure of the complexity of a piece?
Personally,
I feel that if one or two pages of music can't be learned reasonably well
within 60 to 90 minutes, then the music is too difficult. By
reasonably well I
don't mean that it needs to be up to performance speed, but it should have all
the right notes, with the proper note durations, and articulation.
Any comments on this subject are appreciated.

Why are you asking the question, "How does one go about coming up with a
valid measure of the complexity of a piece?" Different pieces will be
harder or easier for different people, and your method - can I learn it
to a reasonable level of performance within a fixed period of time -
seems as good as any. Personally, I think I can safely say there is
almost no literature I can't now play as long as I go slowly enough, but
that doesn't mean some pieces aren't still too hard for me to consider
performing.

-S-

[cmcanulty]

Get a good guitar syllabus that grades common pieces and you can get a
good feel for how hard various pieces are. Trinity guitar syllabus is
free online and grades tons of guitar pieces.

[Bert]

Post by Steve Freides
Why are you asking the question, "How does one go about coming up with a
valid measure of the complexity of a piece?"

As I mentioned in another post, I mistyped, so what I meant to ask is "How does
one go about coming up with a valid measure of the difficulty of a piece?". I
don't know if I have a good answer in regards to why I am asking this
question, other than this subject is something that's been in the back of my
mind for a while, and I'm fascinated by the learning process. As I mentioned
in my original post, I feel that trying to play pieces that are too difficult
can be detrimental. Now having said that, even a statement like "too
difficult" begs for clarification, because how difficult is too difficult?, as
we do need to challenge ourselves in order to progress. Somebody mentioned
using a syllabus, and I think that's a very good idea - as long as one is
interested in playing only what's on the syllabus. Personally, my musical
interests are rather varied, so I'd much rather come up with my own way of
measuring difficulty and ascertaining what's within reach and what isn't for
the time being.

Post by Steve Freides
your method - can I learn it
to a reasonable level of performance within a fixed period of time -
seems as good as any.

"As any" as in what other way would you go about ascertaining difficulty? I
have wondered if my standard is realistic or not. It does work for me,
although sometimes I question if my own expectations are unreasonably high.

[Steve Freides]

Post by Bert

Post by Steve Freides
Why are you asking the question, "How does one go about coming up with a
valid measure of the complexity of a piece?"

As I mentioned in another post, I mistyped, so what I meant to ask is "How does
one go about coming up with a valid measure of the difficulty of a piece?". I
don't know if I have a good answer in regards to why I am asking this
question, other than this subject is something that's been in the back of my
mind for a while, and I'm fascinated by the learning process. As I mentioned
in my original post, I feel that trying to play pieces that are too difficult
can be detrimental. Now having said that, even a statement like "too
difficult" begs for clarification, because how difficult is too difficult?, as
we do need to challenge ourselves in order to progress. Somebody mentioned
using a syllabus, and I think that's a very good idea - as long as one is
interested in playing only what's on the syllabus. Personally, my musical
interests are rather varied, so I'd much rather come up with my own way of
measuring difficulty and ascertaining what's within reach and what isn't for
the time being.

Post by Steve Freides
your method - can I learn it
to a reasonable level of performance within a fixed period of time -
seems as good as any.

"As any" as in what other way would you go about ascertaining
difficulty? I
have wondered if my standard is realistic or not. It does work for me,
although sometimes I question if my own expectations are unreasonably high.

I have no such standard for myself or my students. For me, I will start
playing something and, if I haven't given up before reaching the end of
the piece, that probably means I'm OK to play it, but not everyone is
the same - I happen to be a very good sight-reader and if I make it
through, how I just finished playing it is pretty close to how well I'll
ever play it unless and until I start taking lessons and practicing a
lot again. In fact, I usually go through a stage of playing a piece
_worse_ than I sight-read it for a while before it starts to come around
again.

For my students, I just take my best guess. Sometimes I guess wrong,
pick a piece that's too hard, and, after hearing a piece at the next
lesson, I'll ask the student if they want to keep working on it, and if
they say, "No," I'll say "OK" and we're done.

For things like this, method books are invaluable - someone has already
done the work of putting pieces into progressive difficulty order for
you.

-S-

[Miguel de Maria]

Bertolemew,
this is an excellent question, and from this foundation of questioning,
I feel you can be better placed to tackle the difficulties of a musical
instrument. I would say that the first factor in learning to play is
to learn music itself. This requires sustained, daily, focused
listening to music of as wide a breadth as possible, with concentration
in the music you like. It would be helpful to listen both to
masterworks and the very simplest pieces you can find recorded. Music,
after all, is a language, and exists in time and not as dots on paper.


Study of music theory, which I have only undertaken recently, is an
incredible help as well. I use Walter Piston's Harmony. As much time
as you can spend studying and learning this book can only help you. It
helps you organize and understand things which would possibly never
really add up without this "extra-guitar" study. I also highy
recommend sight-singing. The lack of this sort of fundamental study is
something that may never be rectified by guitar-centric work; something
like a table missing a leg.

The technique of the guitar is very difficult, but not impossible. I
have found that the prevailing academic pedagogy (as I have been
exposed to it) is inadequate for a normal person. It seems to be aimed
at people who already know how to play. If you don't already possess
excellent fluency, you will most likely be dismissed as lacking talent
using their methods. I recommend alternative methods: the most
interesting I have found are Eduardo Fernandez' Technique and
Mechanism, The Inner Game of Music, and C. Chang's Piano Technique (a
free online book). All share "secrets" of acquiring technique, which
will be hard and expensive (both in terms of time and money) to acquire
from academic means.

Good luck!

[e***@yahoo.com]

Can you recommend sections of C. Chang's Piano Technique book can be
applied to CG?

Ed S.

[tollimees]

Hello, Bert
i'ld divide difficulties to two main categories. At first, when one
starts to learn instrument, there seems to be only technical
difficulties, which must be defeated by steady practicing.
While the technical difficulties are vanishing, there will step by step
appear new kind of difficulties: the musical ones.

When It's technically possible to obtain 2 pages of music in familiar
style in 90 minutes (right notes in right rhytm and the remaining steam
goes for rising the tempo to right level), the musical problems can be
"solved" (whatever this means, there is never the one and only solution
for musical problems)in 2 minutes or in 2 years, or maybe never.

One of the hardest lessons may be to make technically easy piece to
sound in appealing way. It can be, that "easy" (techically) piece can
be actually very "hard" (musically) to play and Vice versa. Some
technical rollercoaster can be musically dumb.

I mentioned the familiarity of style, which is also important. It's
extremely hard for me for example to learn some indian ragas, I just do
not know about this style much. My inner ear does'nt have the sounds of
this style in it.

Neverthless I feel, that you'ld like to make some sort of line-up from
musical pieces and obtain them in order to make your life easier. That
can make sense at the technical beginning of learning curve.

I think that It's even more important to have different styles in
repertoire to keep your musical thinking fresh. This does'nt make sense
to play for example only the classical etudes again and again without
any kind of game in it. in this case the order of etudes doesn't change
much.

Allar

Post by Bert
When performing a musical instrument, the facility that the performer has in
playing a piece is directly related to the experience that he or she has with
their instrument. For example, a beginner's lever piece that might feel
difficult for somebody that's only been playing for a few months will be
perceived as easy by somebody that's been playing for five or ten years. In
addition to that I think that while it's good to challenge oneself with pieces
that are slightly beyond reach, I also believe that attempting to play pieces
that are too complex in relation to one's current ability will have a
detrimental effect in one's musical development. So, given that the perceived
musical complexity is relative to the performer's experience, and given that
everybody's level of musical development will be different, how does one go
about coming up with a valid measure of the complexity of a piece? Personally,
I feel that if one or two pages of music can't be learned reasonably well
within 60 to 90 minutes, then the music is too difficult. By reasonably well I
don't mean that it needs to be up to performance speed, but it should have all
the right notes, with the proper note durations, and articulation.
Any comments on this subject are appreciated.