Discussion:
The guitar works of Agustin Barrios - Stover
(too old to reply)
Cesar Vega
2004-01-09 01:23:33 UTC
Permalink
Can anyone tell if there are professional recordings based on this
specific edition ? I mean the Stover's edition.

I have some problems with it. I know Barrios used to change his music,
so, different editions may differ, but this case is very simple.

In Volume II, the Prelude in Cm, there are parts that just does not
correspond to the recordings I have, well, for this piece I have one
from John Williams and I've heard another performance recently posted
for Cristiano Porquedu. Both are identical, but does not correspond to
several parts of the Stover arrangement.

I dare to say, the some of this are not editor's preference but just
mistakes.

I declare my self a life-time newbiew and need to listen what I am
working on.
Could anybody tell me, which Barrios edition is based John William's
CD on ?


Regards,
p***@quicknet.nl
2004-01-09 09:45:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cesar

Last summer, I saw a cd, if I remember right a double one, with very old
recordings of Barrios himself.
perhaps that is a solution for you!
greetings, Peter
Post by Cesar Vega
Can anyone tell if there are professional recordings based on this
specific edition ? I mean the Stover's edition.
I have some problems with it. I know Barrios used to change his music,
so, different editions may differ, but this case is very simple.
In Volume II, the Prelude in Cm, there are parts that just does not
correspond to the recordings I have, well, for this piece I have one
from John Williams and I've heard another performance recently posted
for Cristiano Porquedu. Both are identical, but does not correspond to
several parts of the Stover arrangement.
I dare to say, the some of this are not editor's preference but just
mistakes.
I declare my self a life-time newbiew and need to listen what I am
working on.
Could anybody tell me, which Barrios edition is based John William's
CD on ?
Regards,
Cristiano Porqueddu
2004-01-09 09:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cesar Vega
In Volume II, the Prelude in Cm, there are parts that just does not
correspond to the recordings I have, well, for this piece I have one
from John Williams and I've heard another performance recently posted
for Cristiano Porquedu. Both are identical, but does not correspond to
several parts of the Stover arrangement.
Which parts?

In a recent masterclass have listened a version of the "Catedral" of Barrios
edits by R.Stover completely different from that Barrios plays!



CP



--------------------------------
Cristiano Porqueddu
Classical Guitarist
www.cristianoporqueddu.com
Cesar Vega
2004-01-10 01:40:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cristiano Porqueddu
Which parts?
I'll make note of three difference :

1.- The 8th movt in stover's is not being played in your performance, nor JW
does it.
2.- The 15th mov. suggest a half bar on fret #3. This is not possible since
you need to play a D bemol on the second string.
3.- The 17th mov. puts two A bemol as melody notes. You and JW are playing a
G on the second higher note.
Post by Cristiano Porqueddu
In a recent masterclass have listened a version of the "Catedral" of Barrios
edits by R.Stover completely different from that Barrios plays!
"La Catedral" is a case. I have that one from Stover, too. It even has
variations for several sections.


Regards,


Cesar
Matt McNabb
2004-01-10 02:24:36 UTC
Permalink
From what I've seen, Rico always includes detailed notes and alternate
passages according to Barrios' differing scores and recordings. He really
seems to know his stuff.

While we're on the subject, JW seems to add a measure between mss. 78 and 79
in the Allegro Solemne. I can't quite figure it out, but it sounds like a
descending A, G, and E with treble notes in between. Where did he get this
added measure. It really livens up that part of the piece which can drag a
little.
Post by Cesar Vega
Post by Cristiano Porqueddu
Which parts?
1.- The 8th movt in stover's is not being played in your performance, nor JW
does it.
2.- The 15th mov. suggest a half bar on fret #3. This is not possible since
you need to play a D bemol on the second string.
3.- The 17th mov. puts two A bemol as melody notes. You and JW are playing a
G on the second higher note.
Post by Cristiano Porqueddu
In a recent masterclass have listened a version of the "Catedral" of
Barrios
Post by Cristiano Porqueddu
edits by R.Stover completely different from that Barrios plays!
"La Catedral" is a case. I have that one from Stover, too. It even has
variations for several sections.
Regards,
Cesar
Chris Erwich
2004-01-09 10:53:16 UTC
Permalink
Only the pieces that are delivered in writing are correct. The rest is
rubbish in the Stover edition. Williams played the transcriptions of Jason
Waldron and Robert Tucker. There is a very good edition by Chris Dummigan.
They are correct. I don't know the editor I made my own transcriptions.
It is a heavy job but with computertricks it is making it much easier.. Of
most of the pieces the written music was lost.

Chris
Post by Cesar Vega
Can anyone tell if there are professional recordings based on this
specific edition ? I mean the Stover's edition.
I have some problems with it. I know Barrios used to change his music,
so, different editions may differ, but this case is very simple.
In Volume II, the Prelude in Cm, there are parts that just does not
correspond to the recordings I have, well, for this piece I have one
from John Williams and I've heard another performance recently posted
for Cristiano Porquedu. Both are identical, but does not correspond to
several parts of the Stover arrangement.
I dare to say, the some of this are not editor's preference but just
mistakes.
I declare my self a life-time newbiew and need to listen what I am
working on.
Could anybody tell me, which Barrios edition is based John William's
CD on ?
Regards,
saraband
2004-01-09 18:11:03 UTC
Permalink
I can't speak for the Prelude in Cm, but many of the pieces in the
Stover edition are transcriptions of those old Barrios recordings
mentioned in an earlier post, and yes, they contain many errors. His
transcription of "Caazapa" is particularly bad - the rhythms make no
sense. Stover says in the preface to the 1st edition that "many of the
pieces are presented here for the first time in this corrected form
corresponding exactly to what Mangore played on his records". The
transcriptions may well be exactly what Stover hears Mangore play on
the recording, but to say that they "correspond exactly" is
presumptuous and arrogant.
Post by Chris Erwich
Only the pieces that are delivered in writing are correct. The rest is
rubbish in the Stover edition. Williams played the transcriptions of Jason
Waldron and Robert Tucker. There is a very good edition by Chris Dummigan.
They are correct. I don't know the editor I made my own transcriptions.
It is a heavy job but with computertricks it is making it much easier.. Of
most of the pieces the written music was lost.
Chris
Post by Cesar Vega
Can anyone tell if there are professional recordings based on this
specific edition ? I mean the Stover's edition.
I have some problems with it. I know Barrios used to change his music,
so, different editions may differ, but this case is very simple.
In Volume II, the Prelude in Cm, there are parts that just does not
correspond to the recordings I have, well, for this piece I have one
from John Williams and I've heard another performance recently posted
for Cristiano Porquedu. Both are identical, but does not correspond to
several parts of the Stover arrangement.
I dare to say, the some of this are not editor's preference but just
mistakes.
I declare my self a life-time newbiew and need to listen what I am
working on.
Could anybody tell me, which Barrios edition is based John William's
CD on ?
Regards,
Cesar Vega
2004-01-10 01:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Erwich
Only the pieces that are delivered in writing are correct. The rest is
rubbish in the Stover edition. Williams played the transcriptions of Jason
Waldron and Robert Tucker.
Who publishes those transcriptions ?
Where can I find them ? I didn't see them in GSP.


Regards,


Cesar
Enlightenme01
2004-01-09 14:26:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cesar Vega
Can anyone tell if there are professional recordings based on this
specific edition ? I mean the Stover's edition.
Do you mean the old or NEW edition that Mr. Stover has assembled? I have both
and the fingerings *are* different between the two.

His source is Barrios' handwritten manuscript form El Salvador.


Dave Anno
Antuco
2004-01-09 16:04:04 UTC
Permalink
Very recently, Stover re-published supposaly all of Barrios music (Mel-Bay)
A friend of mine bought the two books, and told me that is the same
as before.
Is someone desperate to make some money ????

Antuco
Post by Enlightenme01
Post by Cesar Vega
Can anyone tell if there are professional recordings based on this
specific edition ? I mean the Stover's edition.
Do you mean the old or NEW edition that Mr. Stover has assembled? I have both
and the fingerings *are* different between the two.
His source is Barrios' handwritten manuscript form El Salvador.
Dave Anno
Enlightenme01
2004-01-09 16:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antuco
Very recently, Stover re-published supposaly all of Barrios music (Mel-Bay)
A friend of mine bought the two books, and told me that is the same
as before.
Is someone desperate to make some money ????
Your friend is wrong.

The books are printed with much better quality. Also there are photos, a cd,
and about sixty pages of critical notes that include all known variations of
the pieces.

You have to check it out yourself before dismissing it!
Dave Anno
Cesar Vega
2004-01-10 01:45:39 UTC
Permalink
I think I have those old editions. The date on copyright is 1977.
I'll look forward for those Mel-Bay edition. Thanks for the advise.

Regards,
Post by Enlightenme01
Post by Antuco
Very recently, Stover re-published supposaly all of Barrios music (Mel-Bay)
A friend of mine bought the two books, and told me that is the same
as before.
Is someone desperate to make some money ????
Your friend is wrong.
The books are printed with much better quality. Also there are photos, a cd,
and about sixty pages of critical notes that include all known variations of
the pieces.
You have to check it out yourself before dismissing it!
Dave Anno
Cesar Vega
2004-01-10 05:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Dave :

Are these the books you are refering to ?

http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=96308&pageheader=&category=&author=333&mode=author
http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=20765BCD&pageheader=&category=&author=333&mode=author

Would you recommend them ?

Regards,
Post by Enlightenme01
Post by Antuco
Very recently, Stover re-published supposaly all of Barrios music (Mel-Bay)
A friend of mine bought the two books, and told me that is the same
as before.
Is someone desperate to make some money ????
Your friend is wrong.
The books are printed with much better quality. Also there are photos, a cd,
and about sixty pages of critical notes that include all known variations of
the pieces.
You have to check it out yourself before dismissing it!
Dave Anno
Enlightenme01
2004-01-10 15:28:48 UTC
Permalink
Cesar,

Yes, those are the books. And yes, I recommend them.

I have both and I really like the quality of the new edition printing. It makes
the early edition look very rough in comparison.


Dave Anno
Richard F. Sayage
2004-01-10 15:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enlightenme01
Post by Antuco
Very recently, Stover re-published supposaly all of Barrios music (Mel-Bay)
A friend of mine bought the two books, and told me that is the same
as before.
Is someone desperate to make some money ????
Your friend is wrong.
The books are printed with much better quality. Also there are photos, a cd,
and about sixty pages of critical notes that include all known variations of
the pieces.
You have to check it out yourself before dismissing it!
Dave Anno
Found this on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2370602498&category=38100
--
Richard F. Sayage
www.savageclassical.com

Remove ZEROSPAM to reply...thx

http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
David Schramm
2004-01-10 22:46:33 UTC
Permalink
That is Randy Osbourne's auction. He runs Fine Fretted String Instruments in
San Jose. http://www.finefretted.com/

Regards,
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com
Thomas Martin
2004-01-09 17:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cesar,
in fact I do have many recording of Barrios music: the only thing in
common is that they always differ a little bit. I don´t know if this
is because of copyright reasons.......J. W. does for shure his own
arrangements. Also Wolfgang Lendle doesn´t stick too close with the
text. Alexander-Sergie Ramirez, Antigoni Goni and Wulfin Lieske do -
as far as I could hear - sometimes mixtures from Stover and Zen-On
edition. If you listen to Barrios´s playing himself he always changed
the text or plays different from what all editions show, so probably I
do think it is quite legal to make his own arrangements of this
pieces.
All the best
Th. M.
Post by Cesar Vega
Can anyone tell if there are professional recordings based on this
specific edition ? I mean the Stover's edition.
I have some problems with it. I know Barrios used to change his music,
so, different editions may differ, but this case is very simple.
In Volume II, the Prelude in Cm, there are parts that just does not
correspond to the recordings I have, well, for this piece I have one
from John Williams and I've heard another performance recently posted
for Cristiano Porquedu. Both are identical, but does not correspond to
several parts of the Stover arrangement.
I dare to say, the some of this are not editor's preference but just
mistakes.
I declare my self a life-time newbiew and need to listen what I am
working on.
Could anybody tell me, which Barrios edition is based John William's
CD on ?
Regards,
Cesar Vega
2004-01-10 01:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Thomas,

I have the J.W and the Antogoni Goni CD.
Could you give more details about those others CD's ?

Thanks,


Cesar
Post by Thomas Martin
Hi Cesar,
in fact I do have many recording of Barrios music: the only thing in
common is that they always differ a little bit. I donŽt know if this
is because of copyright reasons.......J. W. does for shure his own
arrangements. Also Wolfgang Lendle doesnŽt stick too close with the
text. Alexander-Sergie Ramirez, Antigoni Goni and Wulfin Lieske do -
as far as I could hear - sometimes mixtures from Stover and Zen-On
edition. If you listen to BarriosŽs playing himself he always changed
the text or plays different from what all editions show, so probably I
do think it is quite legal to make his own arrangements of this
pieces.
Thomas Martin
2004-01-10 11:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cesar Vega
Hi, Thomas,
I have the J.W and the Antogoni Goni CD.
Could you give more details about those others CD's ?
Thanks,
Cesar
Hi Cesar,

Wulfin Lieske´s Barrios recording is called "La Catedral" and is
released on Saphir, Intercord, INT 830 846. This is an standart
Barrios program, incl. all his big "hits". For my taste, very nice,
but a bit boring...
Wolfgang Lendle: released on "Opus" , Czecheslowakia, No. 91-2405-2. A
nice selection of familiar and less familiar works. I like Lendle´s
playing in concert very much, full of energy. In the Barrios recording
it appears too rough for my taste, to aggressive nearly, not so
refined like the compositions.
Alexander-Sergei Ramirez: "Confesion", released on Deutsche
Grammophon, No. 471 532-2. For my taste by far the best recording of
Barrios´music at all, incl. Williams, Goni or Russell, very different,
very lyrical. Like Lendle a selection
of known and lesser known works.
The very best certainly is by Barrios himself: 3 CD box released on
Chantarelle, Germany
All the best
Th. M.
Thomas Martin
2004-01-10 11:40:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cesar Vega
Hi, Thomas,
I have the J.W and the Antogoni Goni CD.
Could you give more details about those others CD's ?
Thanks,
Cesar
Hi Cesar,

Wulfin Lieske´s Barrios recording is called "La Catedral" and is
released on Saphir, Intercord, INT 830 846. This is an standart
Barrios program, incl. all his big "hits". For my taste, very nice,
but a bit boring...
Wolfgang Lendle: released on "Opus" , Czecheslowakia, No. 91-2405-2. A
nice selection of familiar and less familiar works. I like Lendle´s
playing in concert very much, full of energy. In the Barrios recording
it appears too rough for my taste, to aggressive nearly, not so
refined like the compositions.
Alexander-Sergei Ramirez: "Confesion", released on Deutsche
Grammophon, No. 471 532-2. For my taste by far the best recording of
Barrios´music at all, incl. Williams, Goni or Russell, very different,
very lyrical. Like Lendle a selection
of known and lesser known works.
The very best certainly is by Barrios himself: 3 CD box released on
Chantarelle, Germany
All the best
Th. M.
Thomas Martin
2004-01-10 11:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cesar Vega
Hi, Thomas,
I have the J.W and the Antogoni Goni CD.
Could you give more details about those others CD's ?
Thanks,
Cesar
Hi Cesar,

Wulfin Lieske´s Barrios recording is called "La Catedral" and is
released on Saphir, Intercord, INT 830 846. This is an standart
Barrios program, incl. all his big "hits". For my taste, very nice,
but a bit boring...
Wolfgang Lendle: released on "Opus" , Czecheslowakia, No. 91-2405-2. A
nice selection of familiar and less familiar works. I like Lendle´s
playing in concert very much, full of energy. In the Barrios recording
it appears too rough for my taste, to aggressive nearly, not so
refined like the compositions.
Alexander-Sergei Ramirez: "Confesion", released on Deutsche
Grammophon, No. 471 532-2. For my taste by far the best recording of
Barrios´music at all, incl. Williams, Goni or Russell, very different,
very lyrical. Like Lendle a selection
of known and lesser known works.
The very best certainly is by Barrios himself: 3 CD box released on
Chantarelle, Germany
All the best
Th. M.
Chris Erwich
2004-01-10 17:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cesar ,

Jason Waldron Publications are coming from ALLANS MUSIC AUSTRALIA, Pty.
LTD. 276 COLLINSSTREET, MELBOURNE, AUSTR>
The TUCKER EDITIONS are published in England.

Best is to buy the original recordings or download them from the web., in
this way you can have your own transcription and find your own solutions to
the difficulties you will meet writing them down.

If you want to know more . Write me.

Chris
Post by Cesar Vega
Hi, Thomas,
I have the J.W and the Antogoni Goni CD.
Could you give more details about those others CD's ?
Thanks,
Cesar
Post by Thomas Martin
Hi Cesar,
in fact I do have many recording of Barrios music: the only thing in
common is that they always differ a little bit. I donŽt know if this
is because of copyright reasons.......J. W. does for shure his own
arrangements. Also Wolfgang Lendle doesnŽt stick too close with the
text. Alexander-Sergie Ramirez, Antigoni Goni and Wulfin Lieske do -
as far as I could hear - sometimes mixtures from Stover and Zen-On
edition. If you listen to BarriosŽs playing himself he always changed
the text or plays different from what all editions show, so probably I
do think it is quite legal to make his own arrangements of this
pieces.
David Schramm
2004-01-10 22:20:20 UTC
Permalink
Cesar,
Rico called me this afternoon. During our conversation I told him about this
thread. He is going to try to join this group and answer everyone's
questions. Also, read the critical notes. The prelude in the new Stover
edition is from the original manuscript. This new Stover edition is the
finest and most thoroughly researched available.
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com
Matanya Ophee
2004-01-10 22:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Martin
Cesar,
Rico called me this afternoon. During our conversation I told him about this
thread. He is going to try to join this group and answer everyone's
questions. Also, read the critical notes. The prelude in the new Stover
edition is from the original manuscript. This new Stover edition is the
finest and most thoroughly researched available.
I saw it in Merida. Looked through briefly, and it seems to be well
done. But like everyhting else, I am sure there would be people who
did not like this or that and the other about it. Par for the course.



Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
David Schramm
2004-01-10 22:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
I saw it in Merida. Looked through briefly, and it seems to be well
done. But like everyhting else, I am sure there would be people who
did not like this or that and the other about it. Par for the course.
You are 100% correct. Rico already found some errors and is producing an
errata sheet for the next printing.

BTW,How is your Schertzer(s)?
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com
Matanya Ophee
2004-01-10 23:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Schramm
Post by Matanya Ophee
I saw it in Merida. Looked through briefly, and it seems to be well
done. But like everyhting else, I am sure there would be people who
did not like this or that and the other about it. Par for the course.
You are 100% correct. Rico already found some errors and is producing an
errata sheet for the next printing.
A book without misprints is an accident....
Post by David Schramm
BTW,How is your Schertzer(s)?
Waiting for you. Once you get over this flamenco thing. BTW, I do have
one flamenco guitar, made for me by Ukrainian luthier Nikolai
Eshchenko from Chernigiv many years ago. Body of Russian curly maple,
and the whole thing is decorated like a Faberge piece. I can't tell
what the soundboard is like, since it is dyed dark red, but most
probably some kind of spruce. Used to call it my Pinko Commie guitar
in the old days. My late friend Vladimir Slavsky called it Krasnaia
Koroleva, the Red Queen. The head piece has 7 projecting spokes with
mother of pearl dots on top, like a crown.

The few flamenquistas that tried it swore that it was a real flamenco
guitar. Now where did I put that digital camera....?




Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html

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