Discussion:
WTC for guitar?
(too old to reply)
Alcibiades
2007-11-11 19:07:25 UTC
Permalink
I've become obsessed with Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier and want to
play them, as far as possible, on the guitar. Which of them are most
suitable for guitar performance? Obviously the first Prelude in C. Any
others? And have they all been transcribed for the guitar?
JorgeM
2007-11-11 19:45:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
I've become obsessed with Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier and want to
play them, as far as possible, on the guitar. Which of them are most
suitable for guitar performance? Obviously the first Prelude in C. Any
others? And have they all been transcribed for the guitar?
Don't know about all of them but here's a bunch in this book-

http://www.orphee.com/solos/bach.html

Some sound samples-

http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-1.mp3

http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-1.mp3

http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-2.mp3

http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-2.mp3
John O
2007-11-11 21:06:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by JorgeM
Post by Alcibiades
I've become obsessed with Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier and want to
play them, as far as possible, on the guitar. Which of them are most
suitable for guitar performance? Obviously the first Prelude in C. Any
others? And have they all been transcribed for the guitar?
Don't know about all of them but here's a bunch in this book-
http://www.orphee.com/solos/bach.html
Some sound samples-
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-2.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-2.mp3
Those all sound very difficult. Too bad this recording is no longer in
print--Sanchez was quite a player.
Matanya Ophee
2007-11-11 22:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by John O
Post by JorgeM
http://www.orphee.com/solos/bach.html
Some sound samples-
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-2.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-2.mp3
Those all sound very difficult. Too bad this recording is no longer in
print--Sanchez was quite a player.
At the time, I tried to get a licence from BMG Mexico to include the
CD with the edition, but could not get it. This is a really an amazing
CD, though it only includes 20 of the pieces, not all the 27.

But, while this is not exactly for the under-equipped, it sure is
doable. I am still waiting...


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://matanya.livejournal.com
John O
2007-11-11 23:42:39 UTC
Permalink
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Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: WTC for guitar?
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:13:47 -0500
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Post by John O
Post by JorgeM
http://www.orphee.com/solos/bach.html
Some sound samples-
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-2.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-2.mp3
Those all sound very difficult. Too bad this recording is no longer in
print--Sanchez was quite a player.
At the time, I tried to get a licence from BMG Mexico to include the
CD with the edition, but could not get it. This is a really an amazing
CD, though it only includes 20 of the pieces, not all the 27.
Has anyone tried to convince them to re-release it? If so, I wonder why
they resist?

Speaking of amazing Bach, what did you think of Jorge Caballero's
performance of the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue?
Matanya Ophee
2007-11-12 03:31:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John O
Post by Matanya Ophee
At the time, I tried to get a licence from BMG Mexico to include the
CD with the edition, but could not get it. This is a really an amazing
CD, though it only includes 20 of the pieces, not all the 27.
Has anyone tried to convince them to re-release it? If so, I wonder why
they resist?
probably they do not expect the market potential for this to be
sufficiently interesting for them.
Post by John O
Speaking of amazing Bach, what did you think of Jorge Caballero's
performance of the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue?
It was a big improvement on the Philip Hii recording, but still, I am
not convinced.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://matanya.livejournal.com
John O
2007-11-12 07:45:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by John O
Speaking of amazing Bach, what did you think of Jorge Caballero's
performance of the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue?
It was a big improvement on the Philip Hii recording, but still, I am
not convinced.
Yeah...some pieces are beyond the scope of a guitar, but he made about as
convincing a case as possible! It sounded as if he were able to maintain
all three voices throughout the Fugue, unlike Hii, who drops it out from
time to time. In many ways, it was more of a technical achievement than the
Dvorak New World Symphony.
Alcibiades
2007-11-12 18:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by John O
In many ways, it was more of a technical achievement than the
Dvorak New World Symphony.
I attended his performance of the Dvorak at the recent GFA convention.
I found it rather silly. It served only to highlight just how paltry
an instrument the guitar really is.
Dicerous
2007-11-18 01:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Post by John O
In many ways, it was more of a technical achievement than the
Dvorak New World Symphony.
I attended his performance of the Dvorak at the recent GFA convention.
I found it rather silly. It served only to highlight just how paltry
an instrument the guitar really is.
HA! I agree! BTW Jackson, for a CG who is as smart as you, I don't
think that you should overlook the value of Bach's inventions. A good
fingering excercise would be to rewrite both *hands* (from the piano
score) into single lines for the guitar. Because they are so
beautifully made, you'll find that many of the rules of fingering the
LH apply here (but you won't be as confused by barres and other
exceptions). When you look at the fingerboard, ultimately you should
see meaningful patterns within a diatonic framework. If you're
adventurous you can read from bass cleff as well.

David
Alcibiades
2007-11-12 02:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by John O
Post by JorgeM
http://www.orphee.com/solos/bach.html
Some sound samples-
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-2.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-2.mp3
Those all sound very difficult. Too bad this recording is no longer in
print--Sanchez was quite a player.
At the time, I tried to get a licence from BMG Mexico to include the
CD with the edition, but could not get it. This is a really an amazing
CD, though it only includes 20 of the pieces, not all the 27.
But, while this is not exactly for the under-equipped, it sure is
doable. I am still waiting...
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794http://www.editionsorphee.comhttp://matanya.livejournal.com
Has any other guitarist recorded the WTC?
Matanya Ophee
2007-11-12 03:31:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by John O
Post by JorgeM
http://www.orphee.com/solos/bach.html
Some sound samples-
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-2.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-2.mp3
Those all sound very difficult. Too bad this recording is no longer in
print--Sanchez was quite a player.
At the time, I tried to get a licence from BMG Mexico to include the
CD with the edition, but could not get it. This is a really an amazing
CD, though it only includes 20 of the pieces, not all the 27.
But, while this is not exactly for the under-equipped, it sure is
doable. I am still waiting...
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794http://www.editionsorphee.comhttp://matanya.livejournal.com
Has any other guitarist recorded the WTC?
Bits and pieces here and there.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://matanya.livejournal.com
Alcibiades
2007-11-11 21:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by JorgeM
Post by Alcibiades
I've become obsessed with Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier and want to
play them, as far as possible, on the guitar. Which of them are most
suitable for guitar performance? Obviously the first Prelude in C. Any
others? And have they all been transcribed for the guitar?
Don't know about all of them but here's a bunch in this book-
http://www.orphee.com/solos/bach.html
Some sound samples-
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-1.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/prelude-2.mp3
http://www.orphee.com/solos/fugue-2.mp3
Many thanks. Check this out:



It sounds like guitar at around 1:00.
ktaylor
2007-11-11 22:10:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
http://youtu.be/wZ_PJvAYlX4
It sounds like guitar at around 1:00.
that's the lute stop.

Would crescendo/decrescendo which is easily done on the guitar be an
appropriate interpretive element to use with this music?

Kevin T.
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-11-12 12:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by ktaylor
Post by Alcibiades
http://youtu.be/wZ_PJvAYlX4
It sounds like guitar at around 1:00.
that's the lute stop.
Would crescendo/decrescendo which is easily done on the guitar be an
appropriate interpretive element to use with this music?
Of course. A klavier can do "expressions", such as piano and forte, like
a pianoforte, but not as much. It's more of a piano than an organ or
harpsichord, and WTC was not written for organ or harpsichord. The
*word* "dynamics" did not exist but certainly there was plenty of use of
piano and forte, crescendo and decrescendo.

If the terms "piano" and "forte" did not exist previously, would a
pianoforte be called a "dynamo" instead? It does not bear thinking on.
;-)

The whole WTC, for guitar, would work out much better as guitar duets IMO.

"Art of Fugue" would be a better source for a larger guitar ensemble,
IMO, since it was scored for four instruments. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
h***@verizon.net
2007-11-12 12:58:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by ktaylor
Post by Alcibiades
http://youtu.be/wZ_PJvAYlX4
It sounds like guitar at around 1:00.
that's the lute stop.
Would crescendo/decrescendo which is easily done on the guitar be an
appropriate interpretive element to use with this music?
Of course. A klavier can do "expressions", such as piano and forte, like
a pianoforte, but not as much. It's more of a piano than an organ or
harpsichord, and WTC was not written for organ or harpsichord. The
*word* "dynamics" did not exist but certainly there was plenty of use of
piano and forte, crescendo and decrescendo.
If the terms "piano" and "forte" did not exist previously, would a
pianoforte be called a "dynamo" instead? It does not bear thinking on.
;-)
Klavier: Pianoforte. Prior to the introduction of the pianoforte,
that is until about 1775, the term Klavier (usually spelled Clavier)
was applied generically to denote either or both the harpsichord or
clavichord, Hence, titles such as Clavierubung or Wohltemperiertes
Clavier contain no evidence as to the intended instrument.



Seth
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-11-12 13:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by ktaylor
Post by Alcibiades
http://youtu.be/wZ_PJvAYlX4
It sounds like guitar at around 1:00.
that's the lute stop.
Would crescendo/decrescendo which is easily done on the guitar be an
appropriate interpretive element to use with this music?
Of course. A klavier can do "expressions", such as piano and forte,
like a pianoforte, but not as much. It's more of a piano than an organ
or harpsichord, and WTC was not written for organ or harpsichord. The
*word* "dynamics" did not exist but certainly there was plenty of use
of piano and forte, crescendo and decrescendo.
If the terms "piano" and "forte" did not exist previously, would a
pianoforte be called a "dynamo" instead? It does not bear thinking on.
;-)
Klavier: Pianoforte. Prior to the introduction of the pianoforte, that
is until about 1775, the term Klavier (usually spelled Clavier) was
applied generically to denote either or both the harpsichord or
clavichord, Hence, titles such as Clavierubung or Wohltemperiertes
Clavier contain no evidence as to the intended instrument.
Seth
Yes, I should have dusted off my HDM. So that's why I always used to
hear of it as the "Well Tempered Clavichord." daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Alcibiades
2007-11-12 18:13:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by ktaylor
Would crescendo/decrescendo which is easily done on the guitar be an
appropriate interpretive element to use with this music?
Of course. A klavier can do "expressions", such as piano and forte, like
a pianoforte, but not as much. It's more of a piano than an organ or
harpsichord, and WTC was not written for organ or harpsichord. The
*word* "dynamics" did not exist but certainly there was plenty of use of
piano and forte, crescendo and decrescendo.
"When Beethoven came to Vienna, it was his superb plying of The Well-
Tempered Clavier that first established his reputation there.... There
is no reason to doubt Czerny's claim that he based his editing [of the
WTC] on his memory of Beethoven's interpretation. In Beethoven's
conception of music, dynamics were of primary importance, and it is
altogether likely that he played Bach's works with crescendos and
diminuendos such as he used in his own. Czerny's edition may reflectt
in detail the pedantry of the etude writer rather than the spontaneity
of a congenial interpreter, but apparetnly it was Beethoven who had
shown the way toward an 'effective' presentation of The Well-Tempered
Clavier - a presentation that must have been a deliberate
dramatization."
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-11-12 20:24:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by ktaylor
Would crescendo/decrescendo which is easily done on the guitar be an
appropriate interpretive element to use with this music?
Of course. A klavier can do "expressions", such as piano and forte,
like a pianoforte, but not as much. It's more of a piano than an organ
or harpsichord, and WTC was not written for organ or harpsichord. The
*word* "dynamics" did not exist but certainly there was plenty of use
of piano and forte, crescendo and decrescendo.
"When Beethoven came to Vienna, it was his superb plying of The Well-
Tempered Clavier that first established his reputation there.... There
is no reason to doubt Czerny's claim that he based his editing [of the
WTC] on his memory of Beethoven's interpretation. In Beethoven's
conception of music, dynamics were of primary importance, and it is
altogether likely that he played Bach's works with crescendos and
diminuendos such as he used in his own. Czerny's edition may reflectt in
detail the pedantry of the etude writer rather than the spontaneity of a
congenial interpreter, but apparetnly it was Beethoven who had shown the
way toward an 'effective' presentation of The Well-Tempered Clavier - a
presentation that must have been a deliberate dramatization."
To put it in another way, the clavichord was the practice instrument for
the keyboard player. What did a "boxful of bees" have that the
harpsichord didn't have? Mainly the possibility of piano and forte.
Since, when playing a clavichord, one has control of the loudness will he
nill he, how could a player stand to play everything at the same level?

Does this mean that guitarists who play everything at the same level are
bad musicians? ;-) daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-11-12 21:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Art of Fugue" would be a better source for a larger guitar ensemble,
IMO, since it was scored for four instruments. daveA
*******************************************************************************
It's for keyboard (organ manuals). In Bach''s day it was not unusual to
notate organ music in open score (SATB), particularly for a complex didactic
work like the Art
of Fugue.

The practice stems from organ tablature notation, which also usually had a
separate "staff" for each SATB part.

One of my students did Art of Fugue on his doctoral recital. Against his
organ teacher's advice, he stopped where Bach stopped, in mid-phrase. That
was quite a shock. The audience stumbled out of the church in a daze.<g>
Or at least I did.
--
==AJN
Boston, Mass.
This week's free download from
Classical Music Library:
Lalo "Symphonie espagnole"
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-11-12 21:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Art of Fugue" would be a better source for a larger guitar ensemble,
IMO, since it was scored for four instruments. daveA
*******************************************************************************
Post by Arthur Ness
It's for keyboard (organ manuals). In Bach''s day it was not unusual to
notate organ music in open score (SATB), particularly for a complex
didactic work like the Art
of Fugue.
The practice stems from organ tablature notation, which also usually had
a separate "staff" for each SATB part.
Because the organist was also the choir director. daveA
Post by Arthur Ness
One of my students did Art of Fugue on his doctoral recital. Against
his organ teacher's advice, he stopped where Bach stopped, in
mid-phrase. That was quite a shock. The audience stumbled out of the
church in a daze.<g> Or at least I did.
Not good for guitar quartet? daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-11-13 06:00:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Not good for guitar quartet? daveA
It's as good as ANY four voice fugue by Bach. Just because Art of Fugue is
written in open score doesn't make it any more appropriate for ensemble
performance than a four-voice fugue from the WTC notated on a bi-staff.
--
==AJN
Boston, Mass.
This week's free download from
Classical Music Library:
Lalo "Symphonie espagnole"
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Art of Fugue" would be a better source for a larger guitar ensemble,
IMO, since it was scored for four instruments. daveA
*******************************************************************************
Post by Arthur Ness
It's for keyboard (organ manuals). In Bach''s day it was not unusual to
notate organ music in open score (SATB), particularly for a complex
didactic work like the Art
of Fugue.
The practice stems from organ tablature notation, which also usually had
a separate "staff" for each SATB part.
Because the organist was also the choir director. daveA
Post by Arthur Ness
One of my students did Art of Fugue on his doctoral recital. Against
his organ teacher's advice, he stopped where Bach stopped, in
mid-phrase. That was quite a shock. The audience stumbled out of the
church in a daze.<g> Or at least I did.
Not good for guitar quartet? daveA
--
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-11-13 12:09:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Not good for guitar quartet? daveA
It's as good as ANY four voice fugue by Bach. Just because Art of Fugue
is written in open score doesn't make it any more appropriate for
ensemble performance than a four-voice fugue from the WTC notated on a
bi-staff.
I cannot help but think that you are overstating the case. The problem
with all keys is temperament. He would have had zero expectation of the
WTC being performed in ensemble, but AoF? Why not, since it was written
"purely" in four parts?

There are reviews of the Emerson string quartet's version. There is a
version for four saxophones too. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-11-14 05:12:23 UTC
Permalink
You've lost me completely here. The WTC fugues are all in 3-, 4- and 5-real
parts, and a saxophone ensemble (or a concert band) can play in C Sharp
Major just as well as a "well-tempered" keyboard instrument. A string
quartet would be even better, because it need not play "well-temperedly."

You need to do some reading in Ross Duffin's new book,
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
How equal temperament ruined harmony (and why you should
care)<< (Norton 2007).

Contents:
-- Shouldn't leading notes lead?
-- How temperament started
-- Non-keyboard tuning
-- "How long, O Lord, how long?"
-- A bridge to the nineteenth century
-- Really better or simply easier?
-- Some are more equal than others
-- The "Joachim mode"
-- "The limbo of that which is disregarded"
-- Where do we go from here?
--
==AJN
Boston, Mass.
This week's free download from
Classical Music Library:
Mahler: Symphony No. 5
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
******************************************************
******************************************************
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Not good for guitar quartet? daveA
It's as good as ANY four voice fugue by Bach. Just because Art of Fugue
is written in open score doesn't make it any more appropriate for
ensemble performance than a four-voice fugue from the WTC notated on a
bi-staff.
I cannot help but think that you are overstating the case. The problem
with all keys is temperament. He would have had zero expectation of the
WTC being performed in ensemble, but AoF? Why not, since it was written
"purely" in four parts?
There are reviews of the Emerson string quartet's version. There is a
version for four saxophones too. daveA
--
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-11-14 20:25:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
You've lost me completely here.
I don't see how. I wrote that Bach *could not* have anticipated the WTC
being performed by any of the orchestral instruments of the time, because
of temperament. Even the strings, since they are tuned to 4 different
pitches, have to be tuned tempered, or all open strings must be avoided.
OTOH, he *could* have anticipated AoF being played on instruments.
need to do some reading in Ross Duffin's new book,
Post by Arthur Ness
How equal temperament ruined harmony (and why you should
care)<< (Norton 2007).
I'm glad it's "ruined". :-) daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-11-15 03:11:42 UTC
Permalink
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral instruments
can play in any of the keys used in the WTC. Even
Peter Maxwell Davies arranged the C Sharp Major prelude and fugue from WTC 1
for flute (doubling on alto flute), clarinet in A, marimba, harpsichord,
viola, and violoncello. I can't imagine a more distant key.

The idea of pieces in all keys has been around for a long time before Bach.
Especially in the lute repertory, Giacomo Gorzanis wrote 48 pavans and
galliards in all 24 "major and minor keys" in 1568, John Wilson did a set of
26 preludes in the 24 keys in the 17th century, Weiss is said to have
written a prelude through all keys (lost?), Falkenhagen did one that Paul
Beier recorded (20 minutes of remarkabl;y beautiful music).
--
==AJN
Boston, Mass.
This week's free download from
Classical Music Library:
Mahler: Symphony No. 5
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
You've lost me completely here.
I don't see how. I wrote that Bach *could not* have anticipated the WTC
being performed by any of the orchestral instruments of the time, because
of temperament. Even the strings, since they are tuned to 4 different
pitches, have to be tuned tempered, or all open strings must be avoided.
OTOH, he *could* have anticipated AoF being played on instruments.
need to do some reading in Ross Duffin's new book,
Post by Arthur Ness
How equal temperament ruined harmony (and why you should
care)<< (Norton 2007).
I'm glad it's "ruined". :-) daveA
--
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-11-15 20:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral instruments
can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-11-17 15:10:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral instruments
can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the Art of
Fugue, d minor! I do not understand where you get these strange ideas.
Perhaps you could learn more about music by taking a music appreciation
class at one of your local night schools or community colleges.

You don't seem to get the point of Duffin's new book. Instruments tuned in
equal temperament are a compromise, and inherently OUT OF TUNE. There are
better ways to tune other than using equal temperament. And that's his
argument. Whether it will change many minds is yet to be determined. But
there are many around who prefer to perform using pure intervals.

==AJN (Boston, Mass.)
This week's free download from
Classical Music Library:
Mahler: Symphony No. 5
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Arthur Ness
2007-11-17 21:47:56 UTC
Permalink
I didn't realize that Bach's secret has finally been discovered. The
solution has been on the title page of the manuscript of the Well Tempered
Clavier all along.

And the controversy rages on:

http://www.larips.com/

Now you can even apply it to your electric guitar with a special
fingerboard:
http://truetemperament.com/main.php?go=17&lan=1

==AJN
Boston, Mass.
This week's free download from
Classical Music Library:
Mahler: Symphony No. 5
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
***************************************************
***************************************************
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral instruments
can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the Art of
Fugue, d minor! I do not understand where you get these strange ideas.
Perhaps you could learn more about music by taking a music appreciation
class at one of your local night schools or community colleges.
You don't seem to get the point of Duffin's new book. Instruments tuned in
equal temperament are a compromise, and inherently OUT OF TUNE. There are
better ways to tune other than using equal temperament. And that's his
argument. Whether it will change many minds is yet to be determined. But
there are many around who prefer to perform using pure intervals.
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)
This week's free download from
Mahler: Symphony No. 5
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Arthur Ness
2007-11-18 18:01:20 UTC
Permalink
There have been complaints about the (patented??) Well Tempered Guitar
fingerboard that I mentioned earlier.

Apparently it doesn't work in all keys.<g>
--
==AJN
Boston, Mass.
This week's free download from
Classical Music Library:
Mahler: Symphony No. 5
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by Arthur Ness
I didn't realize that Bach's secret has finally been discovered. The
solution has been on the title page of the manuscript of the Well Tempered
Clavier all along.
http://www.larips.com/
Now you can even apply it to your electric guitar with a special
http://truetemperament.com/main.php?go=17&lan=1
==AJN
Boston, Mass.
This week's free download from
Mahler: Symphony No. 5
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
***************************************************
***************************************************
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral instruments
can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the Art of
Fugue, d minor! I do not understand where you get these strange ideas.
Perhaps you could learn more about music by taking a music appreciation
class at one of your local night schools or community colleges.
You don't seem to get the point of Duffin's new book. Instruments tuned in
equal temperament are a compromise, and inherently OUT OF TUNE. There are
better ways to tune other than using equal temperament. And that's his
argument. Whether it will change many minds is yet to be determined.
But
there are many around who prefer to perform using pure intervals.
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)
This week's free download from
Mahler: Symphony No. 5
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-11-18 06:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral
instruments can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
Post by Arthur Ness
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the Art of
Fugue, d minor!
Obviously.

But they could not play in tune in all the keys in the WTC, which is all
I said and all I meant to say. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-11-19 13:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral
instruments can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
Post by Arthur Ness
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the Art of
Fugue, d minor!
Obviously.
But they could not play in tune in all the keys in the WTC, which is all
I said and all I meant to say. daveA
**********************************************************************************
That's why I can't help you. I really cannot respond to what you "meant" to
say. Especially when what you "meant" to say is incorrect.

In any event, in Bach's day (and other times) orchestral
instruments could play in tune in all of the keys!! Think about it! Where
did you get such an idea that they couldn't? There's never been a need for
well-tempered violins and 'cellos. Or well tempered singers. (Even tempered
singers, perhaps yes.) Or well tempered natural horns and trumpets. Or even
well tempered lutes.

Tones are "tempered" on instruments with pre-fixed pitches, like the piano,
organ, modern guitar, harpsichord, because it's impractical to re-tune the
instrument according to the key of the piece. (Unless you have split
keys--one solution that avoids using temperament.) You can't change all the
A flats to G sharps when you change playing your harpsichord from F minor to
E
major. But you don't have that problem with a violin. That's one reason
why violins don't
have frets. And why music for string quartet is so very satisfying.

AJN.
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-01 21:02:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral
instruments can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the Art
of Fugue, d minor!
Obviously.
But they could not play in tune in all the keys in the WTC, which is
all I said and all I meant to say. daveA
**********************************************************************************
Post by Arthur Ness
That's why I can't help you. I really cannot respond to what you
"meant" to say. Especially when what you "meant" to say is incorrect.
In any event, in Bach's day (and other times) orchestral instruments
could play in tune in all of the keys!! Think about it! Where did you
get such an idea that they couldn't?
Not in all the keys tempered, no they couldn't. Better keying systems
were needed. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Carlos Barrientos
2007-12-01 22:10:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral
instruments can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the Art
of Fugue, d minor!
Obviously.
But they could not play in tune in all the keys in the WTC, which is
all I said and all I meant to say. daveA
**********************************************************************************
Post by Arthur Ness
That's why I can't help you. I really cannot respond to what you
"meant" to say. Especially when what you "meant" to say is incorrect.
In any event, in Bach's day (and other times) orchestral instruments
could play in tune in all of the keys!! Think about it! Where did you
get such an idea that they couldn't?
Not in all the keys tempered, no they couldn't. Better keying systems
were needed. daveA
OP. Cit. Bach's work as an organ designer...
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-03 11:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral
instruments can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the
Art of Fugue, d minor!
Obviously.
But they could not play in tune in all the keys in the WTC, which is
all I said and all I meant to say. daveA
**********************************************************************************
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
That's why I can't help you. I really cannot respond to what you
"meant" to say. Especially when what you "meant" to say is incorrect.
In any event, in Bach's day (and other times) orchestral instruments
could play in tune in all of the keys!! Think about it! Where did
you get such an idea that they couldn't?
Not in all the keys tempered, no they couldn't. Better keying systems
were needed. daveA
OP. Cit. Bach's work as an organ designer...
Relevance? daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Carlos Barrientos
2007-12-03 13:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral
instruments can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the
Art of Fugue, d minor!
Obviously.
But they could not play in tune in all the keys in the WTC, which is
all I said and all I meant to say. daveA
**********************************************************************************
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
That's why I can't help you. I really cannot respond to what you
"meant" to say. Especially when what you "meant" to say is incorrect.
In any event, in Bach's day (and other times) orchestral instruments
could play in tune in all of the keys!! Think about it! Where did
you get such an idea that they couldn't?
Not in all the keys tempered, no they couldn't. Better keying systems
were needed. daveA
OP. Cit. Bach's work as an organ designer...
Relevance? daveA
Pitch.

Am I incorrect in perceiving that the dimensions of metal pipes would
determine specific pitches? Would this not be a far more accurate
measure of his tuning vision than the strings on a stringed keyboard?
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
Arthur Ness
2007-12-03 14:42:50 UTC
Permalink
When organs are tuned, the pipes are altered. So there are none of
Bach's organs that remain tuned as they were in his day. For example,
the tuner might alter the well-tempered tuning of Bach's preference to
a modern equal temperment. And surely any organ Bach played on will
have been tuned scores of times since then.

This is also why today's organs cannot tell us the pitch level of the
instrument when Bach played it.
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's
Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___

Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral
instruments can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously
orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the
Art of Fugue, d minor!
Obviously.
But they could not play in tune in all the keys in the WTC, which is
all I said and all I meant to say. daveA
**********************************************************************************
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
That's why I can't help you. I really cannot respond to what you
"meant" to say. Especially when what you "meant" to say is
incorrect.
In any event, in Bach's day (and other times) orchestral
instruments
could play in tune in all of the keys!! Think about it! Where did
you get such an idea that they couldn't?
Not in all the keys tempered, no they couldn't. Better keying systems
were needed. daveA
OP. Cit. Bach's work as an organ designer...
Relevance? daveA
Pitch.
Am I incorrect in perceiving that the dimensions of metal pipes
would determine specific pitches? Would this not be a far more
accurate measure of his tuning vision than the strings on a stringed
keyboard?
--
Carlos Barrientos
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
Carlos Barrientos
2007-12-03 15:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
When organs are tuned, the pipes are altered. So there are none of
Bach's organs that remain tuned as they were in his day. For example,
the tuner might alter the well-tempered tuning of Bach's preference to
a modern equal temperment. And surely any organ Bach played on will
have been tuned scores of times since then.
This is also why today's organs cannot tell us the pitch level of the
instrument when Bach played it.
Ahhh... thank you, sir... Too bad...
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-03 19:49:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral
instruments can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the
Art of Fugue, d minor!
Obviously.
But they could not play in tune in all the keys in the WTC, which
is all I said and all I meant to say. daveA
**********************************************************************************
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
That's why I can't help you. I really cannot respond to what you
"meant" to say. Especially when what you "meant" to say is
incorrect.
In any event, in Bach's day (and other times) orchestral instruments
could play in tune in all of the keys!! Think about it! Where did
you get such an idea that they couldn't?
Not in all the keys tempered, no they couldn't. Better keying
systems were needed. daveA
OP. Cit. Bach's work as an organ designer...
Relevance? daveA
Pitch.
Am I incorrect in perceiving that the dimensions of metal pipes would
determine specific pitches? Would this not be a far more accurate
measure of his tuning vision than the strings on a stringed keyboard?
Obviously a keyboard of any type could be tempered without new keying
systems. That has nothing to do with the issue. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-12-01 23:12:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
That's why I can't help you. I really cannot respond to what you
"meant" to say. Especially when what you "meant" to say is
incorrect.
In any event, in Bach's day (and other times) orchestral
instruments
could play in tune in all of the keys!! Think about it! Where did you
get such an idea that they couldn't?
Not in all the keys tempered, no they couldn't. Better keying
systems
were needed. daveA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Of course woodwinds could play in tempered keys, if they wished to do
so. But why play out of tune? TEMPERED INSTRUMENTS ARE INHERENTLY OUT
OF TUNE!

Haven't you ever heard of things like
players using forked fingerings and half-holes on woodwinds? They're
used for playing in tune,
tempered, or otherwise, whichever one you choose.

And I'll remind you again that instruments of the violin family do not
have frets. Nor do brass instruments. But they do have
crooks--pieces of tubing inserted into the bore.

Do you think the famous Telemann Trio Sonata for Oboe in B major or
Haydn's Farewell Symphony are
theoretical, unplayable compositions?

Nice try.

Thimk, daveA! Or as Burl Ives puts it,
http://www.brownielocks.com/donut.html

==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's
Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___

To download, go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-03 11:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
That's why I can't help you. I really cannot respond to what you
"meant" to say. Especially when what you "meant" to say is incorrect.
In any event, in Bach's day (and other times) orchestral instruments
could play in tune in all of the keys!! Think about it! Where did you
get such an idea that they couldn't?
Not in all the keys tempered, no they couldn't. Better keying systems
were needed. daveA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Of course woodwinds
could play in tempered keys, if they wished to do so. But why play out
of tune? TEMPERED INSTRUMENTS ARE INHERENTLY OUT OF TUNE!
Is that your point? Tempered instruments are the only ones which are in
tune--with tempered scales in tempered keys, and that is what is
necessary to play in tune in all keys. Is that all that brought on
your rant?

5ths are tempered too. The comma from 3 5ths in succession is
noticeable. So much for your nonsense about strings not being tempered.
daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-12-03 23:26:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
<<<AJN>>>Of course
woodwinds
could play in tempered keys, if they wished to do so. But why play out
of tune? TEMPERED INSTRUMENTS ARE INHERENTLY OUT OF TUNE!
Is that your point? Tempered instruments are the only ones which are in
tune--with tempered scales in tempered keys, and that is what is
necessary to play in tune in all keys. Is that all that brought on
your rant?
5ths are tempered too. The comma from 3 5ths in succession is
noticeable. So much for your nonsense about strings not being
tempered.
daveA
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Equal temperament means that the instrument plays OUT of tune in ALL
KEYS. Tempered instruments are OUT OF TUNE!!! You've missed a major
point when you write (incorrectly) that "Tempered instyruments are
the only ones which are in tune." TOTALLY FALSE! A tempered
instrument is one in which the "out-of-tune-ity" is spread through all
twleve notes. All twelve notes are slightly out of tune. If the
keyboard was not tempered, some notes would be VERY MUCH out of tune.

You obviously do not understand what you are
talking about! You've got it backwards. That's why I suggested,
"Watch the donut, not the hole!"

I already explained the reasons for well-tempered
instruments, most of which are keyboard instruments. There is no
reason to have a well-tempered violin. Violinists can play in tune in
any key they wish, and they don't have to have a tempered instrument
to do so.

And I don'[t know how you'd temper a violin if you wanted to. With
frets, perhaps. But pianists and guitarists can't. Hence they
mistune ("temper") their pianos and guitars so one size fits all.
It's a compromise. Get it? You redistribute and divide up the
Pythagorian comma throughout the instrument. Didn't you know that?
That's a BASIC bit of information that you have to know to understand
what temperament means and accomplishes, as it makes out-of-tune
instruments.

http://www.brownielocks.com/donut.html

I'll go back to what we started with:

_*How equal temperament ruined harmony
(and why you should care)*_

By Ross W. Duffin.

New York : W. W. Norton & Co., 2007. 196 pp.

Whether you agree with Duffin's premise (as stated in the title, you
might take a gander and learn something from what he says.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's
Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___

Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-04 10:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
And I don'[t know how you'd temper a violin if you wanted to.
The same way you temper anything else. The open strings have four
discrete pitches, and these pitches are either even tempered or not. Of
course it's much easier than boring holes in a wooden tube and inventing
a key system, but so what?

With
Post by Arthur Ness
frets, perhaps. But pianists and guitarists can't. Hence they mistune
That's enough of that. You can't make your own definitions of words to
suit yourself and then rant about them. Talk it over with your piano out-
of-tuner when he comes to mistune your piano sometime. An even tempered
instrument, if tuned, is in tune in all keys. That's the only sense in
which it can be in tune. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-12-21 20:41:58 UTC
Permalink
I have some musical examples that illustrate the appropriateness
of the concerns expressed in Ross Duffin's new book.

I think your problem, DaveA, is not my "rant" but your inability
to understand the basic terminology used in a discussion of
temperaments. Don't you have a music dictionary? It would be wise,
don't you agree, to look up some of the terms before spouting off with
haughty insults about things of which you are totally ignorant. I
don't
understand how you expect to discuss equal temperament when you don't
know what the H---- a tempered interval is.

What does it mean to "temper justice with mercy"? That's the same
meaning as to temper an interval. You _*modify*_ it.
AJN>> And I don't know how you'd temper a violin if you wanted to.
DaveA> The same way you temper anything else.
The open strings have four
discrete pitches, and these pitches are
either even tempered or not.
WRONG. WRONG. Don't you know that the strings of a violin are tuned
to PURE FIFTHS? As I explained ALREADY, there is no need for a
well-tempered or equal-tempered violin. Why have an out-of-tune
instrument? Don't you know how a violin works?
Talk it over with your piano out-
of-tuner when he comes to mistune your piano
sometime. An even tempered
instrument, if tuned, is in tune in all keys.
That's the only sense in
which it can be in tune. daveA
WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. Your second misconception. The piano
tuner TEMPERS the FIFTHS. That's what's meant by "Temperament." I
thought everyone knew that. All 24 major and minor keys are slightly
OUT OF TUNE on a piano in equal temperament.
=====>>>That by definition TEMPERED means that
=====>>>the notes are deliberately mis-tuned.<<<====

So much for your sarcastic, but ignorant remarks. Incidentally my
piano
tuners have included Marne Nixon's dad. How's that for a celebrity
piano tuner?<g>

Take a listen to the cycle of fifths through all the major keys on a
harpsichord tuned in Meantone. It sounds mighty sour when the
progression gets beyond the first and last 3 or 4 fifths (but
listen to that remarkably pure last chord!):

http://home.no.net/audio1/43HARPSICH_01.ra

By mis-tuning all twelve fifths on the keyboard octave, the piano
tuner makes possible "acceptable" play in any key. Equal temperament
is a compromise. But every key is slightly out of tune, as you can
hear when the same progression is
played on an equal-tempered harpsichord:

http://home.no.net/audio1/45HARPSICH_03.ra

The sour progressions are gone, to be sure, but it sounds "stuffy" in
comparison with Meantone because it is out of tune.

It's not as bright as the Meantone tuning. And listen to the
progression in modified Meantone (probably close to the temperament
favored by JSB):

http://home.no.net/audio1/44HARPSICH_02.ra

Better than the first exampole. And such beautiful chords. So much
fuller than the chords in equal temperament. That's why Ross Duffin
has a point in his new
book titled "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should
Care." You can hear what he's writing about with the three examples
I've provided for your delectation.

"AJN."
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-22 02:33:39 UTC
Permalink
I have some musical examples that illustrate the appropriateness of the
concerns expressed in Ross Duffin's new book.
I think your problem, DaveA, is not my "rant" but your inability to
understand the basic terminology used in a discussion of temperaments.
Don't you have a music dictionary? It would be wise, don't you agree,
to look up some of the terms before spouting off with haughty insults
about things of which you are totally ignorant. I don't
understand how you expect to discuss equal temperament when you don't
know what the H---- a tempered interval is.
What does it mean to "temper justice with mercy"? That's the same
meaning as to temper an interval. You _*modify*_ it.
AJN>> And I don't know how you'd temper a violin if you wanted to.
DaveA> The same way you temper anything else.
The open strings have four
discrete pitches, and these pitches are either even tempered or
not.
WRONG. WRONG. Don't you know that the strings of a violin are tuned to
PURE FIFTHS?
No, they are not. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
h***@verizon.net
2007-12-22 04:10:30 UTC
Permalink
I have some musical examples that illustrate the appropriateness of the
concerns expressed in Ross Duffin's new book.
I think your problem, DaveA,  is not my "rant" but your inability to
understand the basic terminology used in a discussion of temperaments.
Don't you have a music dictionary?  It would be wise, don't you agree,
to look up some of the terms before spouting off with haughty insults
about things of which you are totally ignorant.  I don't
understand how you expect to discuss equal temperament when you don't
know what the H---- a tempered interval is.
What does it mean to "temper justice with mercy"?  That's the same
meaning as to temper an interval.  You _*modify*_ it.
AJN>> And I don't know how you'd temper a violin if you wanted to.
    >DaveA> The same way you temper anything else.
    > The open strings have four
    > discrete pitches, and these pitches are either even tempered or
    > not.
WRONG. WRONG.  Don't you know that the strings of a violin are tuned to
PURE FIFTHS?
No, they are not.  daveA
David makes a good point here. If a violinist tunes to pure fifths
and then plays with a pianist, the result is cacophony!

S
Arthur Ness
2007-12-22 07:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Cacophony? Not really. Think about the problem. The violinist can
easily adjust when playing with a pianist. Violins do not have frets
to get in the way.<g> And when playing with a piano, only three notes
would be in possible conflict, anyway. And the violinist will usually
avoid using
open strings so that conflict is minimized, if not eliminated.

If violinists used tempered fifths, they'd take a year just to learn
how to tune their instruments. That's how
long, I understand, it takes a piano tuner to "hear" properly how to
adjust ("temper") a fifth to tune an equal tempered keyboard. That is
how to hear the "beats" of a properly _*tempered*_ fifth. Tain't
easy, McGee. But to tune the violin to pure fifths is child's play.
As any child will demonstrate for you. You eliminate the beats.

Violins and most instruments can play in all keys without having to
use tempered intervals. Tempered instruments are used when it is not
possible to alter individual notes on the spur of the moment. You can
do that with most instruments, but not with a piano or organ. Or
guitar.
Equal temperament is a compromise tuning. And many musicians like
Ross
Duffin believe it is not a satisfactory compromise. Because it's out
of tune, as my example illustrated.

=================================================



This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
The Seasons Op. 37b by Tchaikovsky for Piano.
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
I have some musical examples that illustrate the appropriateness of the
concerns expressed in Ross Duffin's new book.
I think your problem, DaveA, is not my "rant" but your inability
to
understand the basic terminology used in a discussion of
temperaments.
Don't you have a music dictionary? It would be wise, don't you
agree,
to look up some of the terms before spouting off with haughty insults
about things of which you are totally ignorant. I don't
understand how you expect to discuss equal temperament when you don't
know what the H---- a tempered interval is.
What does it mean to "temper justice with mercy"? That's the same
meaning as to temper an interval. You _*modify*_ it.
AJN>> And I don't know how you'd temper a violin if you wanted to.
DaveA> The same way you temper anything else.
The open strings have four
discrete pitches, and these pitches are either even tempered or
not.
WRONG. WRONG. Don't you know that the strings of a violin are
tuned to
PURE FIFTHS?
No, they are not. daveA
David makes a good point here. If a violinist tunes to pure fifths
and then plays with a pianist, the result is cacophony!

S
h***@verizon.net
2007-12-22 13:58:29 UTC
Permalink
Cacophony? Not really. Think about the problem.  The violinist can
easily adjust when playing with a pianist.  Violins do not have frets
to get in the way.<g>  And when playing with a piano, only three notes
would be in possible conflict, anyway. And the violinist will usually
avoid using
open strings so that conflict is minimized, if not eliminated.
If violinists used tempered fifths, they'd take a year just to learn
how to tune their instruments.  That's how
long, I understand, it takes a piano tuner to "hear" properly how to
adjust ("temper") a fifth to tune an equal tempered keyboard.  That is
how to hear the "beats" of a  properly _*tempered*_ fifth.  Tain't
easy, McGee.  But to tune the violin to pure fifths is child's play.
As any child will demonstrate for you. You eliminate the beats.
Violins and most instruments can play in all keys without having to
use tempered intervals. Tempered instruments are used when it is not
possible to alter individual notes on the spur of the moment.  You can
do that with most instruments, but not with a piano or organ.  Or
guitar.
Equal temperament is a compromise tuning.  And many musicians like
Ross
Duffin believe it is not a satisfactory compromise.  Because it's out
of tune, as my example illustrated.
=================================================
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
The Seasons Op. 37b by Tchaikovsky for Piano.
Go to my web page:http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
I have some musical examples that illustrate the appropriateness of the
concerns expressed in Ross Duffin's new book.
I think your problem, DaveA, is not my "rant" but your inability
to
understand the basic terminology used in a discussion of
temperaments.
Don't you have a music dictionary? It would be wise, don't you
agree,
to look up some of the terms before spouting off with haughty insults
about things of which you are totally ignorant. I don't
understand how you expect to discuss equal temperament when you don't
know what the H---- a tempered interval is.
What does it mean to "temper justice with mercy"? That's the same
meaning as to temper an interval. You _*modify*_ it.
AJN>> And I don't know how you'd temper a violin if you wanted to.
DaveA> The same way you temper anything else.
The open strings have four
discrete pitches, and these pitches are either even tempered or
not.
WRONG. WRONG. Don't you know that the strings of a violin are
tuned to
PURE FIFTHS?
No, they are not. daveA
David makes a good point here.  If a violinist tunes to pure fifths
and then plays with a pianist, the result is cacophony!
S
I don't know, AJN, I learned to do it and I also learned to tune
tempered fifths on my guitar. I speak as an ex violinist,

S
Arthur Ness
2007-12-22 20:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Seth,

You and DaveA are confused about tempered intervals. You use pure
intervals to tune your guitar and violin. As I did when I played
viola. Fixed pitch instruments like harp, piano and
guitar which cannot vary intervallic sizes with changing melodic or
harmonic contexts, are usually tuned in equal temperament these days.
Most other musical instruments do not use equal temperament,
but are invariably flexible enough to adjust to equal temperament if
forced to play with, say, a piano. It's a simple matter of
intonation (and a good ear), something that does not concern the
players of equal temperament instruments.

Tempered intervals are BY DEFINITION out of tune. For example, NHDM
(ed. Randel): >>Temperament . . . (1) The slight modification of an
acoustically pure or just interval . . . (2) Any scale or system of
tuning employing intervals that have been so modified. Tempered
intervals sometimes deviate from just intervals by more than three
percent.<<

You should read Duffin's new book. It's written in layman's language.
So you won't need a degree in acoustics to understand it.
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)
Arthur Ness
2007-12-22 07:06:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
AJN>> And I don't know how you'd temper a violin if you wanted to.
DaveA> The same way you temper anything else.
The open strings have four
discrete pitches, and these pitches are either even tempered
or
not.
WRONG. WRONG. Don't you know that the strings of a violin are tuned to
PURE FIFTHS?
No, they are not. daveA
==================================================
Haven't you ever tuned a violin? You still don't know what
temperament means. Geezuz! If string instruments were tuned to
tempered fifths it would take an orchestra an hour to tune. And then
they'd all be playing out of tune.
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-23 00:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
AJN>> And I don't know how you'd temper a violin if you wanted to.
DaveA> The same way you temper anything else.
The open strings have four
discrete pitches, and these pitches are either even tempered
or
not.
WRONG. WRONG. Don't you know that the strings of a violin are tuned to
PURE FIFTHS?
No, they are not. daveA
================================================== Haven't you ever
tuned a violin? You still don't know what temperament means. Geezuz!
If string instruments were tuned to tempered fifths it would take an
orchestra an hour to tune. And then they'd all be playing out of tune.
You are mistaken. If the three fifths were tuned 2/3 the outer strings
would be badly off. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-12-23 23:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
You are mistaken. If the three fifths were tuned 2/3 the outer strings
would be badly off. daveA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That's dead wrong and absurd. The ratio of a fifth is 3:2, not 2:3.
You'd
have to go through the cycle of 12 intervals before you'd reach the
Pythagorean comma. The difference between the pitch of open strings
tuned to pure fifths and the same pitches on a piano tuned in equal
temperament are so minor as to be indistiguishable.

The point is violin strings are a pure fifth distant
from one another and perfectly in tune. The violin is NOT an
equal tempered instrument. If you're going to temper your violin
strings, how will you know when you've reached the proper temperament?
Hire Marne Nixon's dad?

Violins play in a kind of just intonation. A good player (with a good
ear) can play in tune in any key without adjustmenhts. How is that?
Because violins don't have
frets. I explained this to you already. Violin players can
differentiate between A flat and G sharp,
for example, thus avoiding the problem of the Pythagorian comma. For
them, it doesn't exist.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THE SAME THING?

TURN ON YOUR LISTENING EARS AND THIMK. YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING.

(now stop bothering me, please. take some classes at the community
college and learn something about music. then maybe you can
contriubute something worthwhile to this list.)
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
h***@verizon.net
2007-12-23 23:31:46 UTC
Permalink
The point is violin strings are a pure fifth distant
from one another and perfectly in tune. The violin is NOT an
equal tempered instrument. If you're going to temper your violin
strings, how will you know when you've reached the proper
temperament?
Hire Marne Nixon's dad?
Violins play in a kind of just intonation. A good player (with a
good
ear) can play in tune in any key without adjustmenhts. How is that?
Because violins don't have
frets. I explained this to you already. Violin players can
differentiate between A flat and G sharp,
for example, thus avoiding the problem of the Pythagorian comma. For
them, it doesn't exist.
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THE SAME THING?
TURN ON YOUR LISTENING EARS AND THIMK. YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING.
(now stop bothering me, please. take some classes at the community
college and learn something about music. then maybe you can
contriubute something worthwhile to this list.)
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


You don't need to try and insult people with your response, and I have
studied acoustics enough to know what this is really all about, and I
respectfully state that there is more to it than you imply here. This
link to an article on-line, easily found on google, gives a sense of
the compromise that is violin and string tuning in general. See the
mentions of equal temperament that are there.

http://www.soundpostonline.com/archive/fall2002/page10.htm

S
Arthur Ness
2007-12-24 16:25:45 UTC
Permalink
Dear Von Himmelhoch da komm ich her (I expect you know and love the
Stravinsky arrangement),

I think many professionals*** would disagree with much that is
proposed in that chatty and often vague article you cite. What
factual information does it provide? It
certainly has its measure of discredited mythology, including the
false evocation of the name of J. S. Bach.

Here's an article that surveys the problems of intonation in a more
factual and complete manner:

http://www.hasseborup.com/ahistoryofintonationfinal1.pdf

And when knowledgeable practicing professionals tackle the problem,
here is a sample of the type exchanges that result:

http://www.mail-archive.com/***@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg14970.html

As for your own expertise, you and DaveA are the persons who told us
that you tune using tempered fifths, because a violin tuned with pure
fifths would be "badly out of tune." And furthermore that the
difference between tempered and pure fifths would create cacophony
when used together in music for piano and violin. You'd best check
the accuracy of what you wrote before presenting yourselves as
experts in performance acoustics.
__________________________
***e.g. my teacher Walter Piston, _*Orchestration,*_ page 43:
"INTONATION. Observation and
experiences have demonstrated that in practice performers do not
adhere to any of the scientifically codified standards of pitch, such
as equal temperament, Pythagorean, just or mean-tone intonation. Nor
does the player accept the tones . . . without subjecting them to
constant control and correction through the ear (except of course in
the case of instruments like the harp or piano [or guitar!], whose
pitch cannot be adjusted while playing.) . . . And there operates a
continual harmonic adjustment to the sounds of other instruments."

Or Don Randel in the _*NHDM*_ (to which I am a major contributor):
"Temperaments have been practical compromises made necessary by the
fact that the desirability for acoustical purity and for musical
transposition or modulation are not compatible in a closed system, be
it . . . an instrument [harp, piano, guitar etc.] that lacks a
convenient means of varying
intervallic size with changing melodic or harmonic context."
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's "The Seasons," Op. 37b for Piano Solo
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by Arthur Ness
The point is violin strings are a pure fifth distant
from one another and perfectly in tune. The violin is NOT an
equal tempered instrument. If you're going to temper your violin
strings, how will you know when you've reached the proper
temperament?
Hire Marne Nixon's dad?
Violins play in a kind of just intonation. A good player (with a good
ear) can play in tune in any key without adjustments. How is that?
Because violins don't have
frets. I explained this to you already. Violin players can
differentiate between A flat and G sharp,
for example, thus avoiding the problem of the Pythagorean comma.
For
them, it doesn't exist.
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THE SAME THING?
TURN ON YOUR LISTENING EARS AND THIMK. YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING.
(now stop bothering me, please. take some classes at the community
college and learn something about music. then maybe you can
contribute something worthwhile to this list.)
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You don't need to try and insult people with your response, and I have
studied acoustics enough to know what this is really all about, and I
respectfully state that there is more to it than you imply here.
This
link to an article on-line, easily found on google, gives a sense of
the compromise that is violin and string tuning in general. See the
mentions of equal temperament that are there.
http://www.soundpostonline.com/archive/fall2002/page10.htm
S
Andrew Schulman
2007-12-23 23:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Violins play in a kind of just intonation.  A good player (with a good
ear) can play in tune in any key without adjustmenhts. How is that?
Because violins don't have
frets.
That's right. And it is one reason why I have had to make sure I had
guitars with really good intonation as far as fret placement
especially. The guitars Darren Hippner has made for me in the last
few years use the Gilbert fret placement system, at my request (Darren
liked it a lot right off the bat, hadn't used it before).

Around '97 I had two new instruments that were really off as far as
fret placement. Not so good solo, but a nightmare with my quintet.
In fact, although the violin, viola, and double bass, bowed string
instruments, could adjust to the guitar because they were fretless,
the adjusted sound was not good because the guitars, with their fixed
frets, were off.

I wound up sending them to John Gilbert, I knew him a little from my
years in Seattle, and he was quite sympathetic to my situation and
very quickly replaced the fretboards, first one, then the other.

Problem solved.

Andrew
Arthur Ness
2007-12-24 06:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Hello, Andrew,

Yes, it is just the problems that you faced with the frets that are
symptomatic of having to reconcile the differences between instruments
that use a kind of just intonation and those that use equal
temperament.

This is really the heart of Ross Duffin's book, _*How
Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why you Should Care).*_ It
remains to be seen whether his thoughts will bring about a change in
our system of tuning, or are merely noted and set aside. Equal
temperament has become so prevalent, I doubt it will be changed,
except in the early music repertory. The lute crowd was recently
going on vigorously about cents and fractions of commas on the Lute
List for a week, or so. And pure intervals are so much more sonorous
in comparison with the stuffy sounds of equal temperament. I can
understand why there are those
that are so enthusiastic about abandoning equal temperament. Whether
it's practical is another matter.

For many instruments the piano is simply not a satisfactory instrument
for playing an accompaniment. You hear the effect so often in
recitals by even the finest musicians. And it is interesting that you
are aware of the problems, and have done something about it with your
instruments.

Welcome back. Your gigs have become rather exciting. Wish you'd come
up to Boston some day. Anything down there around February 8th?
Charlotte and I will be down to Carnegie Hall to hear the premiere of
a commissioned piano trio by one of my students, Robert X, Rodriguez.
We'll be around for a few days and I'd really like to hear your
group.. (I'll check back with you closer to
February.)

Arthur.
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's "The Seasons," Op. 37b for Piano Solo
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Violins play in a kind of just intonation. A good player (with a
good
ear) can play in tune in any key without adjustments. How is that?
Because violins don't have
frets.
That's right. And it is one reason why I have had to make sure I had
guitars with really good intonation as far as fret placement
especially. The guitars Darren Hippner has made for me in the last
few years use the Gilbert fret placement system, at my request (Darren
liked it a lot right off the bat, hadn't used it before).

Around '97 I had two new instruments that were really off as far as
fret placement. Not so good solo, but a nightmare with my quintet.
In fact, although the violin, viola, and double bass, bowed string
instruments, could adjust to the guitar because they were fretless,
the adjusted sound was not good because the guitars, with their fixed
frets, were off.

I wound up sending them to John Gilbert, I knew him a little from my
years in Seattle, and he was quite sympathetic to my situation and
very quickly replaced the fretboards, first one, then the other.

Problem solved.

Andrew
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-24 16:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Hello, Andrew,
Yes, it is just the problems that you faced with the frets that are
symptomatic of having to reconcile the differences between instruments
that use a kind of just intonation
"A kind of just intonation?" Are you aware that a major scale with just
intonation has a seventh that is even flatter than the seventh in a
tempered scale? In major keys, violinists and others sharpen that note
if they want to make it sound more naturalistic. "Just" is a very
specific type of intonation. You are throwing the word around without
regard for that. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-12-24 16:20:55 UTC
Permalink
Why don't you read what I wrote and not misrepresent my words. Don't
you know the difference between a melodic and a harmonic interval?
That's why some elementary music theory might help you better
understand music.

You seem still to be under the false impression that violins have
frets. They don't.
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's "The Seasons," Op. 37b for Piano Solo
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Hello, Andrew,
Yes, it is just the problems that you faced with the frets that are
symptomatic of having to reconcile the differences between
instruments
that use a kind of just intonation
"A kind of just intonation?" Are you aware that a major scale with just
intonation has a seventh that is even flatter than the seventh in a
tempered scale? In major keys, violinists and others sharpen that note
if they want to make it sound more naturalistic. "Just" is a very
specific type of intonation. You are throwing the word around
without
regard for that. daveA
--
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-25 05:51:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Why don't you read what I wrote and not misrepresent my words. Don't
you know the difference between a melodic and a harmonic interval?
That's why some elementary music theory might help you better understand
music.
You seem still to be under the false impression that violins have frets.
They don't.
Where did that come from?

I shouldn't, but let's try:

Is a violinist able to adjust the intonation of an open string on the
fly? Of course not. Can he eschew the use of open strings? Not
necessarily.

The pythagorean comma is the difference between C and the C resulting
from circling the fifths. That involves 13 notes and 12 fifths. The
outer strings of a 4 string violin are three fifths apart. Therefore,
the difference between E and the E derived 3 fifths from G is one fourth
of a pythagorean comma, QED. It is audible, it is noticeable, and you
can't tune that way if you want to play anywhere.

The earth orbits the sun, or actually both earth and sun orbit a point
inside the sun. That is no reason to run about shouting that the sun
doesn't "really" rise, or to scream at people who say "sunrise", or even
to cite books by people who are very upset by that. Calm down, think
before you write, and stop shouting. Enjoy your Christmas. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Richard Yates
2007-12-25 21:10:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Therefore,
the difference between E and the E derived 3 fifths from G is one fourth
of a pythagorean comma, QED. It is audible, it is noticeable,
Pythagorean comma = about 24 cents.

One fourth of that = about 6 cents.

The article Arthur cited says "An ear for music literally means a sense of
pitch. In average individuals this varies between 6 and 40 cents."

E and E derived differ by an amount on the edge of perceptibility for most
people. This is probably for pure tones and my guess is that with real
strings with their imperfections, or in an actual musical context of other
notes, the difference would not be detectable.

The changes in pitch just from temperature changes as strings are played is
probably far greater.

Richard Yates
Richard Yates
2007-12-25 21:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Therefore,
the difference between E and the E derived 3 fifths from G is one fourth
of a pythagorean comma, QED. It is audible, it is noticeable,
Pythagorean comma = about 24 cents.
One fourth of that = about 6 cents.
The article Arthur cited says "An ear for music literally means a sense of
pitch. In average individuals this varies between 6 and 40 cents."
E and E derived differ by an amount on the edge of perceptibility for most
people. This is probably for pure tones and my guess is that with real
strings with their imperfections, or in an actual musical context of other
notes, the difference would not be detectable.
The changes in pitch just from temperature changes as strings are played
is probably far greater.
Richard Yates
And more: from Wikipedia: "It is difficult to establish how many cents are
perceptible to humans; this accuracy varies greatly from person to person.
One author stated that humans can distinguish a difference in pitch of about
5-6 cents.[1] The threshold of what is perceptible also varies as a function
of the timbre of the pitch: in one study, changes in tone quality negatively
impacted student musicians' ability to recognize as out-of-tune pitches that
deviated from their appropriate values by +/- 12 cents." and "One study of
vibrato in western vocal music found a variation in cents of vibrato
typically ranged between +/-34 cents and +/-123 cents, with a mean variation
of +/-71 cents."

RY
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-26 14:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Therefore,
the difference between E and the E derived 3 fifths from G is one
fourth of a pythagorean comma, QED. It is audible, it is noticeable,
Pythagorean comma = about 24 cents.
One fourth of that = about 6 cents.
The article Arthur cited says "An ear for music literally means a sense
of pitch. In average individuals this varies between 6 and 40 cents."
E and E derived differ by an amount on the edge of perceptibility for
most people. This is probably for pure tones and my guess is that with
real strings with their imperfections, or in an actual musical context
of other notes, the difference would not be detectable.
The changes in pitch just from temperature changes as strings are
played is probably far greater.
Richard Yates
And more: from Wikipedia: "It is difficult to establish how many cents
are perceptible to humans; this accuracy varies greatly from person to
person. One author stated that humans can distinguish a difference in
pitch of about 5-6 cents.[1] The threshold of what is perceptible also
varies as a function of the timbre of the pitch: in one study, changes
in tone quality negatively impacted student musicians' ability to
recognize as out-of-tune pitches that deviated from their appropriate
values by +/- 12 cents." and "One study of vibrato in western vocal
music found a variation in cents of vibrato typically ranged between
+/-34 cents and +/-123 cents, with a mean variation of +/-71 cents."
RY
I don't think that the variation for "average" people means anything at
all. For an orchestra member to be that far off would be totally
unacceptable. This is *systematic* error, not random error like
tempeature, etc.. You have to *add* random error, because it is equally
likely not to compensate. daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

DGT: The only exercises best for all guitarists. Visit
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Arthur Ness
2007-12-26 15:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Dear Richard,

You are absolutely correct. I doubt there are many people who can
differentiate notes 6 cents apart. And who would want to?

DaveA has forgotten how a violin is tuned. One does NOT start
with the G string and tune up with perfect fifths and get 6 cents. One
starts with the note A (=440). So E a fifth above would be = 660 when
tuned in pure
fifths, and an E in equal temperament with A=440 Hz would be 659.255.
The
difference (.745) is about 1/100th of a whole tone. Two cents, or one
12th of the Pythagorean comma (about 24 cents). In comparison, a
whole tone in equal temperament is 200 cents.

AGAIN ABOUT 1/100th OF A WHOLE TONE. (I have to shout because DaveA
is hard of hearing.)

Such a narrow interval probably couldn't even be measured
with a stroboscope. I don't understand why DaveA and Seth don't think
about these things and work them out themselves before spreading all
this misinformation.
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's "The Seasons," Op. 37b for Piano Solo
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by Richard Yates
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Therefore,
the difference between E and the E derived 3 fifths from G is one fourth
of a pythagorean comma, QED. It is audible, it is noticeable,
Pythagorean comma = about 24 cents.
One fourth of that = about 6 cents.
The article Arthur cited says "An ear for music literally means a
sense of pitch. In average individuals this varies between 6 and 40
cents."
E and E derived differ by an amount on the edge of perceptibility
for most people. This is probably for pure tones and my guess is
that with real strings with their imperfections, or in an actual
musical context of other notes, the difference would not be
detectable.
The changes in pitch just from temperature changes as strings are
played is probably far greater.
Richard Yates
h***@verizon.net
2007-12-26 16:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Richard,
You are absolutely correct.  I doubt there are many people who can
differentiate notes 6 cents apart.  And who would want to?
DaveA has forgotten how a violin is tuned.  One does NOT start
with the G string and tune up with perfect fifths and get 6 cents. One
starts with the note A (=440).  So E a fifth above would be = 660 when
tuned in pure
fifths, and an E in equal temperament with A=440 Hz would be 659.255.
The
difference (.745) is about 1/100th of a whole tone.  Two cents, or one
12th of the Pythagorean comma (about 24 cents).  In comparison, a
whole tone in equal temperament is 200 cents.
AGAIN ABOUT 1/100th OF A WHOLE TONE.  (I have to shout because DaveA
is hard of hearing.)
Such a narrow interval probably couldn't even be measured
with a stroboscope.  I don't understand why DaveA and Seth don't think
about these things and work them out themselves before spreading all
this misinformation.
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)
I am not spreading misinformation. I am simply saying that violins do
not play notes based pure natural overtones. You posted an article
that essentially the same thing in more complex and accurate terms
than the quick sketch that I posted. An excerpt from Quantz cited in
the article says it well:

To tune the violin quite accurately, I think you will not do badly to
follow the rule
that must be observed in tuning the keyboard, namely that the fifths
must be tuned
a little on the flat side rather than quite truly or a little sharp,
as is usually the
case, so that the open strings will agree with the keyboard. For if
all the fifths are
tuned sharp and truly, it naturally follows that only one of the four
strings will be
in tune with the keyboard. If the a is tuned truly with the keyboard,
the e a little
flat in relation to the a, the d a little sharp to the a, and the g
likewise, the two
instruments will agree with each other.


When I tune my guitar, I absolutely tune my fifths flat relative to
overtones, and it is the case that the open E or first string is flat
compared to the 5th fret harmonic of the A string. I always begin by
tuning the A up to pitch and then tuning the open high E to a somewhat
low fifth against it. I then tune the low E up to the high E in a
pure octave and repeat the fifth procedure by tuning the B to the low
E. I then use octaves on the 4th and 3rd strings against the low E
and A strings to finish the job. (This tuning method was shown to me
in a masterclass with Guido Santorsola).

S
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-27 15:43:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Richard,
You are absolutely correct.  I doubt there are many people who can
differentiate notes 6 cents apart.  And who would want to?
DaveA has forgotten how a violin is tuned.  One does NOT start with the
G string and tune up with perfect fifths and get 6 cents. One starts
with the note A (=440).  So E a fifth above would be = 660 when tuned
in pure
fifths, and an E in equal temperament with A=440 Hz would be 659.255.
The
difference (.745) is about 1/100th of a whole tone.  Two cents, or one
12th of the Pythagorean comma (about 24 cents).  In comparison, a whole
tone in equal temperament is 200 cents.
AGAIN ABOUT 1/100th OF A WHOLE TONE.  (I have to shout because DaveA is
hard of hearing.)
Such a narrow interval probably couldn't even be measured with a
stroboscope.  I don't understand why DaveA and Seth don't think about
these things and work them out themselves before spreading all this
misinformation.
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)
I am not spreading misinformation. I am simply saying that violins do
not play notes based pure natural overtones. You posted an article that
essentially the same thing in more complex and accurate terms than the
quick sketch that I posted. An excerpt from Quantz cited in the article
To tune the violin quite accurately, I think you will not do badly to
follow the rule
that must be observed in tuning the keyboard, namely that the fifths
must be tuned
a little on the flat side rather than quite truly or a little sharp, as
is usually the
case, so that the open strings will agree with the keyboard. For if all
the fifths are
tuned sharp and truly, it naturally follows that only one of the four
strings will be
in tune with the keyboard. If the a is tuned truly with the keyboard,
the e a little
flat in relation to the a, the d a little sharp to the a, and the g
likewise, the two
instruments will agree with each other.
When I tune my guitar, I absolutely tune my fifths flat relative to
overtones, and it is the case that the open E or first string is flat
compared to the 5th fret harmonic of the A string. I always begin by
tuning the A up to pitch and then tuning the open high E to a somewhat
low fifth against it. I then tune the low E up to the high E in a pure
octave and repeat the fifth procedure by tuning the B to the low E. I
then use octaves on the 4th and 3rd strings against the low E and A
strings to finish the job. (This tuning method was shown to me in a
masterclass with Guido Santorsola).
A very good way, assuming that the guitar is decently fretted, is to
start with the G string, tune the B string from the 4th fret of that, and
then to tune the rest from those by octaves. This method has little fret
error, and it works very well when the strings are too old. I found the
basic idea in Olcott-Bickford's book, and I have never seen it anywhere
else. It is very quick, and it is the best way when you are on a gig
where there is noise and you have forgotten your tuner, or the batteries
are dead, because *nothing* is better than a tuner. daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

DGT: The only exercises best for all guitarists. Visit
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-12-27 15:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Richard,
You are absolutely correct. I doubt there are many people who can
differentiate notes 6 cents apart. And who would want to?
DaveA has forgotten how a violin is tuned. One does NOT start with the
G string and tune up with perfect fifths and get 6 cents. One starts
with the note A (=440). So E a fifth above would be = 660 when tuned in
pure
fifths, and an E in equal temperament with A=440 Hz would be 659.255.
The
difference (.745) is about 1/100th of a whole tone. Two cents, or one
12th of the Pythagorean comma (about 24 cents). In comparison, a whole
tone in equal temperament is 200 cents.
AGAIN ABOUT 1/100th OF A WHOLE TONE. (I have to shout because DaveA is
hard of hearing.)
Such a narrow interval probably couldn't even be measured with a
stroboscope.
The error is between *notes*, not keys. In some keys, the open strings
would obviously be farther off than in others, but in any key where the G
was in tune the E would not be and vice versa. It would be *very*
noticeable in some keys more than others, but it would be far enough off
in any key to utterly destroy performance if the violin were used with
instruments with equal temperament and open strings were played. If a
two string violin were played the difference would probably be
undetectable by almost everyone, but what would be the point of that?
daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

DGT: The only exercises best for all guitarists. Visit
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Arthur Ness
2007-12-28 02:51:12 UTC
Permalink
DaveA,

Your comments make no sense whatsoever. This thread becomes screwier
and wierder each and every time you add something.

It's become PLUMB LOCO. Hopeless nonsense.

ajn
P.S. Sorry to scream, but DaveA is hard of hearing.

Free Tchaikovsky Download from CML.
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Richard,
You are absolutely correct. I doubt there are many people who can
differentiate notes 6 cents apart. And who would want to?
DaveA has forgotten how a violin is tuned. One does NOT start with the
G string and tune up with perfect fifths and get 6 cents. One
starts
with the note A (=440). So E a fifth above would be = 660 when tuned in
pure
fifths, and an E in equal temperament with A=440 Hz would be
659.255.
The
difference (.745) is about 1/100th of a whole tone. Two cents, or one
12th of the Pythagorean comma (about 24 cents). In comparison, a whole
tone in equal temperament is 200 cents.
AGAIN ABOUT 1/100th OF A WHOLE TONE. (I have to shout because DaveA is
hard of hearing.)
Such a narrow interval probably couldn't even be measured with a
stroboscope.
The error is between *notes*, not keys. In some keys, the open strings
would obviously be farther off than in others, but in any key where the G
was in tune the E would not be and vice versa. It would be *very*
noticeable in some keys more than others, but it would be far enough off
in any key to utterly destroy performance if the violin were used with
instruments with equal temperament and open strings were played. If a
two string violin were played the difference would probably be
undetectable by almost everyone, but what would be the point of that?
daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.
DGT: The only exercises best for all guitarists. Visit
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Andrew Schulman
2007-12-24 17:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Equal temperament has become so prevalent, I doubt it will be changed,
except in the early music repertory.
For fretted instruments and keyboard instruments it is simply a
question of compromise to be able to play through all the keys. That
degree of modulation won't be given up, so equal temperment is here to
stay.
And it is interesting that you are aware of the problems, and have done something about it with
your instruments.
The awareness of this has grown tremendously among guitarist/
musicians, and with the work that luthiers like Gilbert, Byers, and
others have done, there is no excuse for having a poorly intonated
guitar. As I said, where it becomes critical is in ensemble work.
Wish you'd come up to Boston some day.  Anything down there around February 8th?
Charlotte and I will be down to Carnegie Hall to hear the premiere of
a commissioned piano trio by one of my students, Robert X, Rodriguez.
We'll be around for a few days and I'd really like to hear your
group..  (I'll check back with you closer to
February.)
Nothing booked in Boston as of now, but I'm sure we'll be up there one
of these days, we've been in about 35 states so far. The group is on
hiatus from touring from now until the summer because I need to be
around town having started a few new projects, and several of the
players in the group are involved in other NY projects. But we are
just starting to book next year, if a Boston date comes in I'll let
you know.
Andrew
Arthur Ness
2007-12-24 20:39:38 UTC
Permalink
Andrew,

When you mentioned re-freting your instruments, I went looking for
that guitar fingerboard with "wiggly frets." This is what I saw but
couldn't find it at first.

http://www.truetemperament.com/

Apparently it only works well in a few keys. So it's not much of a
success.

While looking I enjoyed reading that one player was in
"microtonal heaven" with a quarter-tone guitar invented by Harry
Partch. What innovation did Partch ever NOT do?

I too don't see any alternative to equal temperament for fixed string
instruments. Surely every other possibility was been tried long ago
with things like 50 strings to the octave (archicembalo) or split keys
(separate keys for, say G sharp and A flat).

There was a maker of metal reeds in western
Mass. in the 19th century who made a parlor organ that used meantone
temperament, which provided pure thirds and fifths, but was not true
in all keys. He had a lever mechanism that would shift a rank of
reeds instantly when a different key was needed. Of course metal
reeds were cheap and light weight so it was a practical solution of
sorts. (His major clients were makers of mouth harmonicas.) He also
used his metal reeds to make a bugle that could be
heard for a half mile. I heard a blast on it once, and believe me I
am certain it would carry that far. It would be used for army
signals. There were maybe 8 reeds on a dial that was turned to get
different notes. That's Yankee ingenuity!!

It will be interesting to see if anything comes of Ross Duffin's book.
Sometimes something like that creates a sensation. But my lute pals
will surely keep meantone temperaments in the forefield. But of
course that music doesn't modulate very much, so equal temperaments
need not be used with their dissonant intervals. They are really
gettinmg quite adept at alteringtemperaments by shifting the tied on
frets.
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's "The Seasons," Op. 37b for Piano Solo
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Equal temperament has become so prevalent, I doubt it will be
changed,
except in the early music repertory.
For fretted instruments and keyboard instruments it is simply a
question of compromise to be able to play through all the keys. That
degree of modulation won't be given up, so equal temperment is here to
stay.
And it is interesting that you are aware of the problems, and have
done something about it with
your instruments.
The awareness of this has grown tremendously among guitarist/
musicians, and with the work that luthiers like Gilbert, Byers, and
others have done, there is no excuse for having a poorly intonated
guitar. As I said, where it becomes critical is in ensemble work.
Wish you'd come up to Boston some day. Anything down there around
February 8th?
Charlotte and I will be down to Carnegie Hall to hear the premiere of
a commissioned piano trio by one of my students, Robert X,
Rodriguez.
We'll be around for a few days and I'd really like to hear your
group.. (I'll check back with you closer to
February.)
Nothing booked in Boston as of now, but I'm sure we'll be up there one
of these days, we've been in about 35 states so far. The group is on
hiatus from touring from now until the summer because I need to be
around town having started a few new projects, and several of the
players in the group are involved in other NY projects. But we are
just starting to book next year, if a Boston date comes in I'll let
you know.
Andrew
dsi1
2007-12-24 21:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Andrew,
When you mentioned re-freting your instruments, I went looking for
that guitar fingerboard with "wiggly frets." This is what I saw but
couldn't find it at first.
http://www.truetemperament.com/
Apparently it only works well in a few keys. So it's not much of a
success.
While looking I enjoyed reading that one player was in
"microtonal heaven" with a quarter-tone guitar invented by Harry
Partch. What innovation did Partch ever NOT do?
I too don't see any alternative to equal temperament for fixed string
instruments. Surely every other possibility was been tried long ago
with things like 50 strings to the octave (archicembalo) or split keys
(separate keys for, say G sharp and A flat).
Please ignore my previous post - you must be a mind reader. I'm betting
there will be auto-tunning guitars which address the nasty problems with
the physical realities of the guitars vs. simple arithmetic and the
system of dividing the sound spectrum that we have chosen.

It will be a gass when someone comes up with a system of digital control
of piano string tensioners, don't you think? :-)
Post by Arthur Ness
There was a maker of metal reeds in western
Mass. in the 19th century who made a parlor organ that used meantone
temperament, which provided pure thirds and fifths, but was not true
in all keys. He had a lever mechanism that would shift a rank of
reeds instantly when a different key was needed. Of course metal
reeds were cheap and light weight so it was a practical solution of
sorts. (His major clients were makers of mouth harmonicas.) He also
used his metal reeds to make a bugle that could be
heard for a half mile. I heard a blast on it once, and believe me I
am certain it would carry that far. It would be used for army
signals. There were maybe 8 reeds on a dial that was turned to get
different notes. That's Yankee ingenuity!!
It will be interesting to see if anything comes of Ross Duffin's book.
Sometimes something like that creates a sensation. But my lute pals
will surely keep meantone temperaments in the forefield. But of
course that music doesn't modulate very much, so equal temperaments
need not be used with their dissonant intervals. They are really
gettinmg quite adept at alteringtemperaments by shifting the tied on
frets.
dsi1
2007-12-24 20:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Hello, Andrew,
Yes, it is just the problems that you faced with the frets that are
symptomatic of having to reconcile the differences between instruments
that use a kind of just intonation and those that use equal
temperament.
This is really the heart of Ross Duffin's book, _*How
Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why you Should Care).*_ It
remains to be seen whether his thoughts will bring about a change in
our system of tuning, or are merely noted and set aside. Equal
temperament has become so prevalent, I doubt it will be changed,
except in the early music repertory. The lute crowd was recently
going on vigorously about cents and fractions of commas on the Lute
List for a week, or so. And pure intervals are so much more sonorous
in comparison with the stuffy sounds of equal temperament. I can
understand why there are those
that are so enthusiastic about abandoning equal temperament. Whether
it's practical is another matter.
Equal temperament may have ruined harmony but what practical use can
this knowledge be when dealing with fretted instruments? Any
recommendations? Have a good Christmas, Mr. Ness.

:-)
Post by Arthur Ness
For many instruments the piano is simply not a satisfactory instrument
for playing an accompaniment. You hear the effect so often in
recitals by even the finest musicians. And it is interesting that you
are aware of the problems, and have done something about it with your
instruments.
Welcome back. Your gigs have become rather exciting. Wish you'd come
up to Boston some day. Anything down there around February 8th?
Charlotte and I will be down to Carnegie Hall to hear the premiere of
a commissioned piano trio by one of my students, Robert X, Rodriguez.
We'll be around for a few days and I'd really like to hear your
group.. (I'll check back with you closer to
February.)
Arthur.
Arthur Ness
2007-12-25 19:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Equal temperament may have ruined harmony but what practical use can
this knowledge be when dealing with fretted instruments? Any
recommendations? Have a good Christmas, Mr. Ness.
--
And a Very Merry Christmas to you, too, dsil!!

{ Mine was OK. I got two packages of underwear and a boiled egg
slicer. But Charlotte
really made out. A FIVE CD set of newspaper marches. Sousa's
"Washinghton Post March" was just one of several dozens of such
marches dedicated to U.S. newspapers. On one CD some of the marches
for the Kansas City Star, Pittsburgh Leader, the Pittsburgh Press, the
Philadelphia Record, and the Washington Times are
played by a mandolin orchestra.}

I indeed touched on your question elsewhere. But I didn't give the
simplest solution. And that would be to use the same kind of frets
that lutenists use. That is, the lute fingerboard has no imbedded
frets, but the frets are pieces of "recycled" lute strings that are
tied around the fingerboard. If you watch carefully between pieces at
a lute recital, players like Paul O'Dette and Hoppy Smith will adjust
the frets by moving them around to set up the pure intervals needed in
the next piece. Often the lutenist will check the frets (that is test
the
"tuning" of the frets) by noodling a bit.

Of course that means the music can't
modulate too far from the original key/mode. But if there are extreme
modulations (like Adam Falkenhagen's beautiful prelude through all the
keys***) one can set the frets for equal temperament. So with tied
frets one size fits all.

Another technique that was mentioned here by a guitarist to adjust
intervals, is to use tastini ("little frets"). Change the fret
position by inserting a match stick up against the imbedded fret. (Use
spit to hold it in place.) Vincenzo Galilei mentions tastini, and
doesn't approve of them. (He
wrote ricercars in all the "keys"--200 years before Bach--so was aware
of the tuning problem.)

Lutenists have become quite passionate about playing with pure
intervals because they perceive them as an improvement
over equal temperament.

As you can hear here, straight off the lilypad:



Isn't that a fresh sound?

***Preludio nel quale sono contenuti tutti i Tuoni Musicali (25'
20"--must be one of the longest pieces of the baroque era), recorded
by Paul Beier, "Adam Falkenhagen / Sylvius Leopold Weiss: Opere per
Liuto" Stradivarius/Dulcimer STR 33448.

Arthur
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's "The Seasons," Op. 37b for Piano Solo
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
dsi1
2007-12-25 21:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Arthur Ness wrote:

And a Very Merry Christmas to you, too, dsil!!

{ Mine was OK. I got two packages of underwear and a boiled egg
slicer. But Charlotte
really made out. A FIVE CD set of newspaper marches. Sousa's
"Washinghton Post March" was just one of several dozens of such
marches dedicated to U.S. newspapers. On one CD some of the marches
for the Kansas City Star, Pittsburgh Leader, the Pittsburgh Press, the
Philadelphia Record, and the Washington Times are
played by a mandolin orchestra.}



Sounds like some good loot (lute?). I like to play with those boiled egg
slicers whenever I get my hands on one. You can finger those with your
thumbs and it sounds like a kalimba and if it's one with a metal frame,
you can change the wire tension by squeezing the sides. Too bad they
don't have very many "strings", I guess nothing's ever perfect.

Strangely enough, I'm going to a Chinese restaurant for lunch so I'll
have to check the links later, I'm sure it'll be interesting. God bless
us every one!

david
Arthur Ness
2007-12-26 15:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Dear David,

Mine egg slicer is in Meantone Temperament (Kirnberger III).

(It was, of course, a gift given with much love and affection. And--to
stop my whining.)

I do hope that after your Chinese luncheon you returned home to take a
listen to David Tayler's YourTube performance of Dowland's "Frog
Galliard." His sentitive playing demonstrates how perfect intervals
are so much more
sonorous than equal temperament. Just compare David's performance
with the same piece played on guitar.
On youtube
http://youtu.be/pPdMwoBki-A
In HD
http://www.stage6.com/user/Walvis2007/video/1980098/The-Frog-Galliard
Here it is played by Angelo Barricelli on guitar. He plays with a
nice firm stroke, but something's missing, isn't it?



ajn
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
I like to play with those boiled egg slicers whenever I get my hands
on one. You can finger those with your thumbs and it sounds like a
kalimba and if it's one with a metal frame, you can change the wire
tension by squeezing the sides.
david
RT
2007-12-26 16:10:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
I do hope that after your Chinese luncheon you returned home to take a
listen to David Tayler's YourTube performance of Dowland's "Frog
Galliard." His sentitive playing demonstrates how perfect intervals
are so much more
sonorous than equal temperament. Just compare David's performance
with the same piece played on guitar.
On youtube
http://youtu.be/pPdMwoBki-A
In HD
http://www.stage6.com/user/Walvis2007/video/1980098/The-Frog-Galliard
Here it is played by Angelo Barricelli on guitar. He plays with a
nice firm stroke, but something's missing, isn't it?
http://youtu.be/1jw6VmpnulA
ajn
I don't think this is really a temperament matter, but rather the difference
is due to the overtone richness of the lute timbre. (That's why I think all
guitarists should switch at least to liuto-forte....).
RT
Arthur Ness
2007-12-26 16:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Could very well be. It's a beautiful sound.
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's "The Seasons," Op. 37b for Piano Solo
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by RT
Post by Arthur Ness
I do hope that after your Chinese luncheon you returned home to take a
listen to David Tayler's YourTube performance of Dowland's "Frog
Galliard." His sentitive playing demonstrates how perfect
intervals
are so much more
sonorous than equal temperament. Just compare David's performance
with the same piece played on guitar.
On youtube
http://youtu.be/pPdMwoBki-A
In HD
http://www.stage6.com/user/Walvis2007/video/1980098/The-Frog-Galliard
Here it is played by Angelo Barricelli on guitar. He plays with a
nice firm stroke, but something's missing, isn't it?
http://youtu.be/1jw6VmpnulA
ajn
I don't think this is really a temperament matter, but rather the
difference is due to the overtone richness of the lute timbre.
(That's why I think all guitarists should switch at least to
liuto-forte....).
RT
Andrew Schulman
2007-12-23 23:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Violins play in a kind of just intonation.  A good player (with a good
ear) can play in tune in any key without adjustmenhts. How is that?
Because violins don't have
frets.  
Just to clarify something, there are of course adjustments made on the
fingerboard, but not in tuning the open strings, and I assume this is
what you meant.

Andrew
Arthur Ness
2007-12-24 16:22:24 UTC
Permalink
Violins play in a kind of just intonation. A good player (with a
good
ear) can play in tune in any key without adjustmenhts. How is that?
Because violins don't have
frets.
Just to clarify something, there are of course adjustments made on the
fingerboard, but not in tuning the open strings, and I assume this is
what you meant.

Andrew
====================================
Dear Andrew,

Yes, except the violinist doesn't have to put up with frets. But of
course this can also be taken to an extreme, as Pablo Casals often
does. His leading tones REALLY LEAD!! It seems to be a "thing" with
'cellists.

Of course you have the alternative of using tied on frets, like lutes.
There was a long and drawn out discussion of tunings and temperaments
in the Baroque Lute List recently. Many on that list are professional
players and teachers, and for a fortnight cyberspace was filled with
commas, cents, tastini, just-tones, mean-tones, wolf-tones and the
like.<g>
Of course, equal temperament is discussed long before Bach*** by
Vincenzo Galilei, and so his opinions were also trotted out, including
an
apparent aversion towards tastini. Did you experiment with tastini?
Someone mentioned them in RMCG a few months ago. Here's a sample from
the Lute List:

http://www.mail-archive.com/***@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg10105.html
_______________________________________
***There is no evidence that Bach favored equal temperament, and more
likely advocated a meantone temperament like Kirnberger III:

http://home.no.net/audio1/44HARPSICH_02.ra

So much better than a stuffy (because it's out of tune) equal
temperament:

http://home.no.net/audio1/45HARPSICH_03.ra
Jez
2007-12-24 13:35:44 UTC
Permalink
(now stop bothering me, please. take some classes at the community college
and learn something about music. then maybe you can contriubute something
worthwhile to this list.)
HUH !
Where's the fun in that ?
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.", Albert Einstein
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-11-19 11:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
I can't believe you're serious, David. Of course orchestral
instruments can play in any of the keys used in the WTC.
Instruments of the time! daveA
**************************************************************************
Post by Arthur Ness
I don't think I can help you any more, Dave. Obviously orchestral
instruments in
Bach's time were not restricted to playing only in the key of the Art of
Fugue, d minor!
I think you mean mode I with a flat. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
John O
2007-11-12 22:41:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Art of Fugue" would be a better source for a larger guitar ensemble,
IMO, since it was scored for four instruments. daveA
Jozsef Eotvos has a wonderful 2-guitar recording on which he plays both
parts via overdubbing. It also has some bonus tracks with one guitar part
missing and the score so ambitious folks can play along with him!
Alcibiades
2007-11-12 23:23:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
It's for keyboard (organ manuals).
According to Paul Epstein in the liner notes to the Emerson Quartet's
recording, "Sebastian died without specifying instrumentation."

And in the liner notes to the Canadian Brass recording: "Brass can
quite justifiably perform this work because of Bach's intentional
avoidance in indicating specific instruments of his era to perform
it."

Will anyone dare to challenge the authority of liner notes?
e***@yahoo.com
2007-11-13 00:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Post by Arthur Ness
It's for keyboard (organ manuals).
According to Paul Epstein in the liner notes to the Emerson Quartet's
recording, "Sebastian died without specifying instrumentation."
And in the liner notes to the Canadian Brass recording: "Brass can
quite justifiably perform this work because of Bach's intentional
avoidance in indicating specific instruments of his era to perform
it."
Will anyone dare to challenge the authority of liner notes?
Don't you mean "challenge with knowledge" and not just nay-saying and
puffery? ;-)
Arthur Ness
2007-11-13 06:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Yes, the thinking that the Art of Fugue is for instrumental ensemble was
demonstrated to be false thirty years ago. At that time commentators simply
did not understand
the notational practices of Bach's time--keyboard music was often
written in open score.

There were even some persons back then who advocated that Art of Fugue was
non-music, not intended for performance, just for study. I don't know
anyone who believes that these
days. Nor are there many today who continue to view Art of Fugue as being
conceived as ensemble music.
--
==AJN
Boston, Mass.
This week's free download from
Classical Music Library:
Lalo "Symphonie espagnole"
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by Alcibiades
Post by Arthur Ness
It's for keyboard (organ manuals).
According to Paul Epstein in the liner notes to the Emerson Quartet's
recording, "Sebastian died without specifying instrumentation."
And in the liner notes to the Canadian Brass recording: "Brass can
quite justifiably perform this work because of Bach's intentional
avoidance in indicating specific instruments of his era to perform
it."
Will anyone dare to challenge the authority of liner notes?
Arthur Ness
2007-11-13 07:00:52 UTC
Permalink
The liner notes are simply an attempt to rationalize the performance by the
Canadian
Brass, a group that surely is far from HIP in its approach to performance.
Unfortunately the is no validity to this rationalization. The liner notes
are nothing more than PR hype. It is interesting that the writer of the
notes felt some necessity to "justify" a performance by the Canadian Brass.
Why not let the performance stand on its own? It's keyboard music arranged
for modern brass instruments. Does that diminish the Canadian Brass's
performance?

If Bach intended it with an instrumental ensemble, which one was it?
String quartet comes immediately to mind. Then one asks, "How many string
quartets did Bach compose?" So that should take care of the liner notes for
the Emerson String Quartet's performance.

Authoritative information about the instrument intended for Art of Fugue is
found in works such as the
New Harvard Dictionary of Music and Malcolm Boyd's Bach Companion (Oxford U.
Press!).
--
==AJN
Boston, Mass.
This week's free download from
Classical Music Library:
Lalo "Symphonie espagnole"
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by Alcibiades
Post by Arthur Ness
It's for keyboard (organ manuals).
According to Paul Epstein in the liner notes to the Emerson Quartet's
recording, "Sebastian died without specifying instrumentation."
And in the liner notes to the Canadian Brass recording: "Brass can
quite justifiably perform this work because of Bach's intentional
avoidance in indicating specific instruments of his era to perform
it."
Will anyone dare to challenge the authority of liner notes?
Carlos Barrientos
2007-11-13 17:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
The liner notes are simply an attempt to rationalize the performance by the
Canadian
Brass, a group that surely is far from HIP in its approach to performance.
Unfortunately the is no validity to this rationalization. The liner notes
are nothing more than PR hype. It is interesting that the writer of the
notes felt some necessity to "justify" a performance by the Canadian Brass.
Why not let the performance stand on its own? It's keyboard music arranged
for modern brass instruments. Does that diminish the Canadian Brass's
performance?
If Bach intended it with an instrumental ensemble, which one was it?
String quartet comes immediately to mind. Then one asks, "How many string
quartets did Bach compose?" So that should take care of the liner notes for
the Emerson String Quartet's performance.
Authoritative information about the instrument intended for Art of Fugue is
found in works such as the
New Harvard Dictionary of Music and Malcolm Boyd's Bach Companion (Oxford U.
Press!).
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
Carlos Barrientos
2007-11-13 17:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Will anyone dare to challenge the authority of liner notes?
PLEASE... tell me this was a joke... someone...
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
Alcibiades
2007-11-13 17:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by Alcibiades
Will anyone dare to challenge the authority of liner notes?
PLEASE... tell me this was a joke... someone...
Yes, it was a joke. It appears that modern flat souls now require this
nonsense: ;-)
Carlos Barrientos
2007-11-13 18:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by Alcibiades
Will anyone dare to challenge the authority of liner notes?
PLEASE... tell me this was a joke... someone...
Yes, it was a joke. It appears that modern flat souls now require this
nonsense: ;-)
Indulge me in this quaint musical parody brought to me by my college
roommate, (circa 1975) the VERY Jewish Scott Strachan and his view on
Catholicism:

(Sung to the Latin Mass Ritual of Dominus Vobiscum)

Celebrant: What is the Shape of the E-arth?
Congregation: Fla-at.
Celbrant: What happens when you reach the edge?
Congregation: You fall off.
Tutti: A-men.
=====================================

Isn't that funny?

(;-)
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
Alcibiades
2007-11-13 19:02:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Indulge me in this quaint musical parody brought to me by my college
roommate, (circa 1975) the VERY Jewish Scott Strachan and his view on
(Sung to the Latin Mass Ritual of Dominus Vobiscum)
Celebrant: What is the Shape of the E-arth?
Congregation: Fla-at.
Celbrant: What happens when you reach the edge?
Congregation: You fall off.
Tutti: A-men.
=====================================
Isn't that funny?
And you claim to be Catholic? Incredible. At any rate, the ancients
didn't believe the earth was flat. This is 1950s textbook propaganda.
With all of its myths of progress, the modern age was in full swing by
then, of course.
Carlos Barrientos
2007-11-13 20:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Indulge me in this quaint musical parody brought to me by my college
roommate, (circa 1975) the VERY Jewish Scott Strachan and his view on
(Sung to the Latin Mass Ritual of Dominus Vobiscum)
Celebrant: What is the Shape of the E-arth?
Congregation: Fla-at.
Celbrant: What happens when you reach the edge?
Congregation: You fall off.
Tutti: A-men.
=====================================
Isn't that funny?
And you claim to be Catholic? Incredible. At any rate, the ancients
didn't believe the earth was flat. This is 1950s textbook propaganda.
With all of its myths of progress, the modern age was in full swing by
then, of course.
A baptized, confirmed, communioned altar boy who actually did the Latin
Ritual before Vatican II changed to vernacular, Jesuit High educated
Catholic, considered priesthood for a bit. K?

If I wanna make fun, crack a joke about a human run institution that I
am a member of, (God do I hear Grouch Marx at my ear...) I've earned
that right. Now, as to the faith. Personal and Beloved.

Mostly I talk Guitar and Composition HERE. Occasionally a joke, no, make
that frequently a joke. Not much politics or religion discussions in me.

Now then, if you had been an altar boy and were familiar with the MUSIC
in the ritual, you might be ROFLOL!

Be well, be happy!
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
Alcibiades
2007-11-13 21:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
A baptized, confirmed, communioned altar boy who actually did the Latin
Ritual before Vatican II changed to vernacular, Jesuit High educated
Catholic, considered priesthood for a bit. K?
This only makes your betrayal all the more egregious.
Alcibiades
2007-11-13 17:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
The liner notes are simply an attempt to rationalize the performance by the
Canadian
Brass, a group that surely is far from HIP in its approach to performance.
Unfortunately the is no validity to this rationalization. The liner notes
are nothing more than PR hype. It is interesting that the writer of the
notes felt some necessity to "justify" a performance by the Canadian Brass.
Why not let the performance stand on its own? It's keyboard music arranged
for modern brass instruments. Does that diminish the Canadian Brass's
performance?
If Bach intended it with an instrumental ensemble, which one was it?
String quartet comes immediately to mind. Then one asks, "How many string
quartets did Bach compose?" So that should take care of the liner notes for
the Emerson String Quartet's performance.
Authoritative information about the instrument intended for Art of Fugue is
found in works such as the
New Harvard Dictionary of Music and Malcolm Boyd's Bach Companion (Oxford U.
Press!).
Many thanks. Any recommended organ recording of this work?
Alcibiades
2007-11-12 23:27:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
One of my students did Art of Fugue on his doctoral recital. Against his
organ teacher's advice, he stopped where Bach stopped, in mid-phrase. That
was quite a shock. The audience stumbled out of the church in a daze.
Or at least I did.
Your student showed sound judgment in choosing truth over expediency.
The grade is A. Moreover, this abrubt end is more powerful
artistically, as the dazed discovered.
Arthur Ness
2007-11-14 05:05:18 UTC
Permalink
I had no objections to his decision to stop playing where Bach stopped
writing. Tom knew what he was doing. Since then he has
authored an 800 page history of ancient Greek music (which he started as a
student). It received, among other honors, the Deems Taylor Award from
ASCAP.

Nevertheless, it was quite a shock. It is among those musical experiences
I'll never forget. Just like "Dialogues of the Carmelites" and the wood
block.<shudder> When you realize that in effect that when Tom stopped,
abruptly, symbolically that was the moment when Bach died. Unlike many
others in the audience, I knew it was coming. But even then I wasn';t ready
for it. It was as if a bomb had gone off in the middle of the chrcuh.

I cannot agree with you that the effect was "powerful." It was frightening.
--
==AJN
Boston, Mass.
This week's free download from
Classical Music Library:
Lalo "Symphonie espagnole"
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Post by Alcibiades
Post by Arthur Ness
One of my students did Art of Fugue on his doctoral recital. Against his
organ teacher's advice, he stopped where Bach stopped, in mid-phrase.
That
was quite a shock. The audience stumbled out of the church in a daze.
Or at least I did.
Your student showed sound judgment in choosing truth over expediency.
The grade is A. Moreover, this abrubt end is more powerful
artistically, as the dazed discovered.
sycochkn
2007-11-11 20:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
I've become obsessed with Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier and want to
play them, as far as possible, on the guitar. Which of them are most
suitable for guitar performance? Obviously the first Prelude in C. Any
others? And have they all been transcribed for the guitar?
Some keyboard material can be played as is without transcribing.

Bob
d***@yahoo.ca
2007-11-11 21:46:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
I've become obsessed with Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier and want to
play them, as far as possible, on the guitar. Which of them are most
suitable for guitar performance? Obviously the first Prelude in C. Any
others? And have they all been transcribed for the guitar?
None of it really fits nor does any of it really work musically
(including prelude 1 IMHO) on the guitar. If you just want to study
the score and get some enjoyment from reproducing it for yourself,
find a duet partner or record one hand and play the other. I used to
do the latter with a few selections (especially the incredible Eb
prelude in book 1) and I found it was a lot of fun.
e***@yahoo.com
2007-11-12 02:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
I've become obsessed with Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier and want to
play them, as far as possible, on the guitar. Which of them are most
suitable for guitar performance? Obviously the first Prelude in C. Any
others? And have they all been transcribed for the guitar?
Here are some Bach transcriptions by Richard Sayage.

http://www.savageclassical.com/

The Complete 15 Two-Part Keyboard Inventions


The Well Tempered Clavier Collection
&

The Complete 15 Three-Part Keyboard Sinfonia for Duet and Trio
Richard F. Sayage
2007-11-13 00:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Alcibiades
I've become obsessed with Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier and want to
play them, as far as possible, on the guitar. Which of them are most
suitable for guitar performance? Obviously the first Prelude in C. Any
others? And have they all been transcribed for the guitar?
Here are some Bach transcriptions by Richard Sayage.
http://www.savageclassical.com/
The Complete 15 Two-Part Keyboard Inventions
The Well Tempered Clavier Collection
&
The Complete 15 Three-Part Keyboard Sinfonia for Duet and Trio
Thx for the mention, Ed. All of the above are very good books. I'm just
finishing the individual parts for the Sinfonia Duet and Trio books, which
will be available separately and/or as a package with the original books.

A couple of mp3s:

http://www.savageclassical.com/music/mp3/prelude13_wtc1.mp3

http://www.savageclassical.com/music/mp3/prelude20_wtc1.mp3

As my strength increases, I'm finding my playing and technique is coming
back. I may be able to record again real soon.
--
Kind Regards,

Richard F. Sayage
Savage Classical Guitar
Bay Shore, NY 11706

www.savageclassicalguitar.com
www.savageclassical.com
Kaz Kylheku
2007-11-14 03:20:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
I've become obsessed with Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier and want to
play them, as far as possible, on the guitar. Which of them are most
suitable for guitar performance? Obviously the first Prelude in C. Any
others? And have they all been transcribed for the guitar?
Dude, you're going to have to go electric and learn two-handed
tapping.



:)
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