Discussion:
How did you know when to quit lessons?
(too old to reply)
Tommy Grand
2010-01-27 02:55:06 UTC
Permalink
This is directed at those of you who didn't attend music school. How
did you know when you were ready to stop taking lessons? I don't mean
why did you quit a particular teacher, but rather how you came to the
conclusion that further formal instruction wasn't necessary for your
development as a player.
edspyhill01
2010-01-27 03:39:38 UTC
Permalink
This is directed at those of you who didn't attend music school.  How
did you know when you were ready to stop taking lessons?  I don't mean
why did you quit a particular teacher, but rather how you came to the
conclusion that further formal instruction wasn't necessary for your
development as a player.
The teacher wants to shoot the bull more than teach;
the teacher is exhausted all the time and his eyes close
involuntarily;
you realize the teacher has no curriculum for your level ("time to
revisit <insert stuff from 2 years ago here>");
you are interested in repertoire your teacher has never heard of;
you can play repertoire your teacher never heard of;
all past students seemed to have quit around "this time";
some students go on to music school and don't have the chops to make
it;
your gut has been telling you to move on for 6 months but you feel
obliged to continue.

I have more but I can't remember them right now.
Tommy Grand
2010-01-27 04:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by edspyhill01
This is directed at those of you who didn't attend music school.  How
did you know when you were ready to stop taking lessons?  I don't mean
why did you quit a particular teacher, but rather how you came to the
conclusion that further formal instruction wasn't necessary for your
development as a player.
The teacher wants to shoot the bull more than teach;
the teacher is exhausted all the time and his eyes close
involuntarily;
you realize the teacher has no curriculum for your level ("time to
revisit <insert stuff from 2 years ago here>");
you are interested in repertoire your teacher has never heard of;
you can play repertoire your teacher never heard of;
all past students seemed to have quit around "this time";
some students go on to music school and don't have the chops to make
it;
your gut has been telling you to move on for 6 months but you feel
obliged to continue.
I have more but I can't remember them right now.
Ed, I'm not asking how you know it's time to quit taking lessons from
a particular teacher, but rather how you know it's time to quit
lessons period.
doug
2010-01-27 03:42:27 UTC
Permalink
This is directed at those of you who didn't attend music school.  How
did you know when you were ready to stop taking lessons?  I don't mean
why did you quit a particular teacher, but rather how you came to the
conclusion that further formal instruction wasn't necessary for your
development as a player.
Do you ever know everything there is to know about the guitar. I
would guess that even concert guitarists still learn from each other.
they may not actually take lessons but can still learn from others. I
suppose a virtuoso wouldn't find it necessary to actually take lessons
but below that level lessons would be helpful, especially with
interpretation Also I think you can only learn so much from any one
teacher. I know when I studied clarinet my first teacher moved me to
another teacher when I reached the level where he couldn't help me
anymore.
Having said that I quit taking lessons when I reached the level I
wanted for my personal enjoyment. But I played other instruments
prior to the guitar so I had a good background in music and only
wanted to learn how to play the guitar not to excel at it.
Tommy Grand
2010-01-27 04:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by doug
Having said that I quit taking lessons when I reached the level I
wanted for my personal enjoyment.  But I played other instruments
prior to the guitar so I had a good background in music and only
wanted to learn how to play the guitar not to excel at it.
Thanks Doug, don't let anyone say you never post about guitar! I
think I may continue taking lessons for the rest of my life, but I
gather this is quite uncommon. Wondering why.
Slogoin
2010-01-27 04:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Doug, don't let anyone say you never post about guitar!  I
think I may continue taking lessons for the rest of my life, but I
gather this is quite uncommon.  Wondering why.
Didn't you say you played cello?
Tommy Grand
2010-01-27 05:00:59 UTC
Permalink
   Didn't you say you played cello?
I played trombone, which is not unlike the cello. The reason I quit
trombone lessons, was I got a girlfriend (mostly).
doug
2010-01-27 07:10:52 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Doug, don't let anyone say you never post about guitar!  I
think I may continue taking lessons for the rest of my life, but I
gather this is quite uncommon.  Wondering why.
   Didn't you say you played cello?
I wish
Slogoin
2010-01-27 04:34:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by doug
Having said that I quit taking lessons when I reached the level I
wanted for my personal enjoyment.  But I played other instruments
prior to the guitar so I had a good background in music and only
wanted to learn how to play the guitar not to excel at it.
So, Doug, do you play guitar? I thought you only pretended to play
guitar, and didn't even do that very well.
Slogoin
2010-01-27 04:28:38 UTC
Permalink
This is directed at those of you who didn't attend music school.  How
did you know when you were ready to stop taking lessons?  I don't mean
why did you quit a particular teacher, but rather how you came to the
conclusion that further formal instruction wasn't necessary for your
development as a player.
How is the question different for someone who went to music school?
Tommy Grand
2010-01-27 04:58:17 UTC
Permalink
  How is the question different for someone who went to music school?
In music school the lessons naturally end when you graduate, unless
you make special effort to continue them. Quitting private lessons
requires a deliberate change in your routine.

How did you decide you didn't need/want a regular guitar teacher
anymore?
Tommy Grand
2010-01-27 17:57:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
  How is the question different for someone who went to music school?
In music school the lessons naturally end when you graduate, unless
you make special effort to continue them.  Quitting private lessons
requires a deliberate change in your routine.
How did you decide you didn't need/want a regular guitar teacher
anymore?
Larry do you have an answer?
Slogoin
2010-01-27 18:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Larry do you have an answer?
TG, can you NOT troll?
Tommy Grand
2010-01-27 18:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Larry do you have an answer?
   TG, can you NOT troll?
I was being sincere. How did you know that you had "graduated" from
lessons, so to speak?
John E. Golden
2010-01-27 22:40:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
This is directed at those of you who didn't attend music school. How
did you know when you were ready to stop taking lessons? I don't mean
why did you quit a particular teacher, but rather how you came to the
conclusion that further formal instruction wasn't necessary for your
development as a player.


Regards,
John E. Golden
Dicerous
2010-01-28 06:05:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by John E. Golden
This is directed at those of you who didn't attend music school.  How
did you know when you were ready to stop taking lessons?  I don't mean
why did you quit a particular teacher, but rather how you came to the
conclusion that further formal instruction wasn't necessary for your
development as a player.
http://youtu.be/IQQOjlgviCI
Regards,
John E. Golden
Tommy,

Let alone finding a teacher that can keep up with you, I feel that if
you arrive at a point where you are discussing the *engineering* of
the composition qua composer you have arrived (i.e rather than being a
little gearhead like you are now). Having knowledge of something and
being able to extemporize with your teacher about those things, the
subtleties of interpretation, the quality of the performance viz your
own myopia; and when you feel you can play basically anything your
teacher puts in front of you, then you don't really need him or her
any more.


The real nasty teachers will keep telling you how you need to adjust
technique in some kind of perfection-fantasy (of theirs); quickly run
away from those people, they can not think positively and move you
forward.
Tommy Grand
2010-01-28 14:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dicerous
Let alone finding a teacher that can keep up with you, I feel that if
you arrive at a point where you are discussing the *engineering* of
the composition qua composer you have arrived (i.e rather than being a
little gearhead like you are now).  Having knowledge of something and
being able to extemporize with your teacher about those things, the
subtleties of interpretation, the quality of the performance viz your
own myopia; and when you feel you can play basically anything your
teacher puts in front of you, then you don't really need him or her
any more.
Thanks for the feedback, David. I doubt I'll ever get to the point
where I could play anything my teacher puts in front of me. After
all, he plays some of the most demanding virtuoso showpieces in the
repertoire. Yes, it appears lessons for life is my destiny. I fear
this is weak or silly, hmm.
Post by Dicerous
The real nasty teachers will keep telling you how you need to adjust technique in some kind of perfection-fantasy (of theirs);  quickly > run away from those people, they can not think positively and move you forward.
Fortunately my teacher is ultra non-dogmatic, and will teach me
whatever I want to learn unless it is total bullshit (he turns me down
about 5%-10% of the time). My current arpeggio project is my own
idea, and I'm sure my teacher thinks it's a bit pointless and
masochistic. Luckily for me, however, he knows exactly what must be
done to achieve these mechanical goals. Some of it is very strange,
almost paradoxical, such as playing with a lot of tension on
purpose...but I'm not at liberty to go into many details.
edspyhill01
2010-01-28 15:08:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dicerous
Let alone finding a teacher that can keep up with you, I feel that if
you arrive at a point where you are discussing the *engineering* of
the composition qua composer you have arrived (i.e rather than being a
little gearhead like you are now).  Having knowledge of something and
being able to extemporize with your teacher about those things, the
subtleties of interpretation, the quality of the performance viz your
own myopia; and when you feel you can play basically anything your
teacher puts in front of you, then you don't really need him or her
any more.
Thanks for the feedback, David.  I doubt I'll ever get to the point
where I could play anything my teacher puts in front of me.  After
all, he plays some of the most demanding virtuoso showpieces in the
repertoire.  Yes, it appears lessons for life is my destiny.  I fear
this is weak or silly, hmm.
Post by Dicerous
The real nasty teachers will keep telling you how you need to adjust technique in some kind of perfection-fantasy (of theirs);  quickly > run away from those people, they can not think positively and move you forward.
Fortunately my teacher is ultra non-dogmatic, and will teach me
whatever I want to learn unless it is total bullshit (he turns me down
about 5%-10% of the time).  My current arpeggio project is my own
idea, and I'm sure my teacher thinks it's a bit pointless and
masochistic.  Luckily for me, however, he knows exactly what must be
done to achieve these mechanical goals.  Some of it is very strange,
almost paradoxical, such as playing with a lot of tension on
purpose...but I'm not at liberty to go into many details.
What strategies has your teacher given you to facilitate fast and
accurate finger shifts when changing chords?
Tommy Grand
2010-01-28 15:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by edspyhill01
What strategies has your teacher given you to facilitate fast and
accurate finger shifts when changing chords?
This is a very suttle, and complex problem, and usually must be solved
case by case! However I have not really practised this much, as my
Pujol #3, Pisador Villanesca, and Sor #1 videos will demonstrate. It's
on my list.

How about you?
edspyhill01
2010-01-28 19:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by edspyhill01
What strategies has your teacher given you to facilitate fast and
accurate finger shifts when changing chords?
This is a very suttle, and complex problem, and usually must be solved
case by case!  However I have not really practised this much, as my
Pujol #3, Pisador Villanesca, and Sor #1 videos will demonstrate. It's
on my list.
How about you?
I use a variation of the Shearer Aim Directed Movement and shift back
and forth using different finger combinations until all or most
sequences are "easy".
Tommy Grand
2010-01-28 19:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by edspyhill01
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by edspyhill01
What strategies has your teacher given you to facilitate fast and
accurate finger shifts when changing chords?
This is a very suttle, and complex problem, and usually must be solved
case by case!  However I have not really practised this much, as my
Pujol #3, Pisador Villanesca, and Sor #1 videos will demonstrate. It's
on my list.
How about you?
I use a variation of the Shearer Aim Directed Movement and shift back
and forth using different finger combinations until all or most
sequences are "easy".
Oh, I haven't found any simple formulas that work well for me. I have
to think about each shift, considering which notes must be sustained,
which can be clipped without sactificing the continuity, etc. But,
I'm bad at this. Like I said, its on the list!
Lutemann
2010-01-28 18:25:03 UTC
Permalink
This is directed at those of you who didn't attend music school.  How
did you know when you were ready to stop taking lessons?  I don't mean
why did you quit a particular teacher, but rather how you came to the
conclusion that further formal instruction wasn't necessary for your
development as a player.
Here's a freebie. You need to get another teacher, Tommy. And that
advice is worth a thousand plus dollars.
Tommy Grand
2010-01-28 18:36:25 UTC
Permalink
Here's a freebie. You need to get another teacher, Tommy.  And that
advice is worth a thousand plus dollars.
Hmm, I don't think so. I seem to be progressing toward my goals under
his tutelage. To recap the goals:

1) pimi @ 132 for 48 measures. (Giulini 81).
2) pima @ 120 for 20 measures (Giuliani 87)
3) pami @ 112 for 24 measures (Giuliani 88)
4) pimami @ 88 for 64 measures (Giuliani 31)

With no galloping, of course.
Slogoin
2010-01-28 19:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
With no galloping, of course.
Here's TG's arrhythmical posts done HIS WAY!

http://www.larrydeack.com/TG.mp3
Tommy Grand
2010-01-28 19:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
Post by Tommy Grand
With no galloping, of course.
Here's TG's arrhythmical posts done HIS WAY!
http://www.larrydeack.com/TG.mp3
Hee hee!
Slogoin
2010-01-28 20:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by Slogoin
Here's TG's arrhythmical posts done HIS WAY!
http://www.larrydeack.com/TG.mp3
Hee hee!
I'm glad you liked that :-)

You should hear Apple's built in speech for some of my poems... OMG! I
think that's a true Turing Test.

http://www.larrydeack.com/TG%202.mp3
Tommy Grand
2010-01-28 19:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
Post by Tommy Grand
With no galloping, of course.
Here's TG's arrhythmical posts done HIS WAY!
http://www.larrydeack.com/TG.mp3
Since you are making mp3's, why not play pimi for 48 measures @ 132,
with a nice groove, to show me how it's done? Any chords you want...
Lutemann
2010-01-28 22:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by Lutemann
Here's a freebie. You need to get another teacher, Tommy. And that
advice is worth a thousand plus dollars.
Hmm, I don't think so. I seem to be progressing toward my goals under
With no galloping, of course.
Tommy says, "Hmm, I don't think so. I seem to be progressing toward
my goals under
his tutelage."

That's a little bit like saying that you have chosen the best new car
to buy because it starts up when you turn the key. Did it ever occur
to you that your goals are wrong? Do you you have any imagination?
Tommy Grand
2010-01-28 23:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Did it ever occur to you that your goals are wrong?  Do you you have any
imagination?
Would it really be fair to fire my teacher for providing exactly what
I ask for? I might fire him if he didn't have anything useful to say
about fast arpeggios.
Dicerous
2010-01-28 23:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Did it ever occur to you that your goals are wrong?  Do you you have any
imagination?
Would it really be fair to fire my teacher for providing exactly what
I ask for?  I might fire him if he didn't have anything useful to say
about fast arpeggios.
ha!
Lutemann
2010-01-28 23:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Did it ever occur to you that your goals are wrong? Do you you have any
imagination?
Would it really be fair to fire my teacher for providing exactly what
I ask for? I might fire him if he didn't have anything useful to say
about fast arpeggios.
Tommy says, "Would it really be fair to fire my teacher for providing
exactly what
I ask for? I might fire him if he didn't have anything useful to say
about fast arpeggios."

Almost nothing in life is fair. You could try serveral other teachers
and go back if you were unhappy. I actually send my students to other
teachers. You claim to be interested in performing at the professional
level, but like any beginner you don't know the right questions to
ask.
Tommy Grand
2010-01-29 00:36:02 UTC
Permalink
Almost nothing in life is fair.  You could try serveral other teachers
and go back if you were unhappy.  I actually send my students to other
teachers. You claim to be interested in performing at the professional
level, but like any beginner you don't know the right questions to
ask.
I'm happy now, yet you claim I'm misguided. So this can't be a
reliable way to test a new teacher.

Kent, when I first posted a pimi video you predicted it will never go
fast because my teacher didn't know what he was doing. A week later I
posted an update, and you said it looked good and was "starting to
move pretty fast". I think you owe my teacher an apology!

BTW my goal isn't to play at a professional level, but merely at a BM
level (so I can get into a DMA program). Based on responses here, I
understand that anyone with a BM credential could easily play at the
speeds I described. So the short term goals are necessary conditions
to achieve my overall strategy (not sufficient conditions, of course).
Lutemann
2010-01-29 13:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by Lutemann
Almost nothing in life is fair. You could try serveral other teachers
and go back if you were unhappy. I actually send my students to other
teachers. You claim to be interested in performing at the professional
level, but like any beginner you don't know the right questions to
ask.
I'm happy now, yet you claim I'm misguided. So this can't be a
reliable way to test a new teacher.
Kent, when I first posted a pimi video you predicted it will never go
fast because my teacher didn't know what he was doing. A week later I
posted an update, and you said it looked good and was "starting to
move pretty fast". I think you owe my teacher an apology!
BTW my goal isn't to play at a professional level, but merely at a BM
level (so I can get into a DMA program). Based on responses here, I
understand that anyone with a BM credential could easily play at the
speeds I described. So the short term goals are necessary conditions
to achieve my overall strategy (not sufficient conditions, of course).
Tommy says, "Kent, when I first posted a pimi video you predicted it
will never go
fast because my teacher didn't know what he was doing. A week later I
posted an update, and you said it looked good and was "starting to
move pretty fast". I think you owe my teacher an apology! "

Tommy, you have an answer for everything. What can I say, you have all
the answers. I deal with students like you everyday.
Slogoin
2010-01-29 02:22:20 UTC
Permalink
Did it ever occur to you that your goals are wrong?
TG won't listen to anybody who doesn't have the "proper"
credentials.
 Do you you have any imagination?
He seems to repeat the same patterns over and over, just like his
CG study plan.
Richard Yates
2010-01-29 04:14:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by Lutemann
Here's a freebie. You need to get another teacher, Tommy. And that
advice is worth a thousand plus dollars.
Hmm, I don't think so. I seem to be progressing toward my goals
With no galloping, of course.
Tommy says, "Hmm, I don't think so. I seem to be progressing toward
my goals under
his tutelage."
That's a little bit like saying that you have chosen the best new car
to buy because it starts up when you turn the key. Did it ever occur
to you that your goals are wrong? Do you you have any imagination?
Kent, the upshot of TG's posts is that he has little interest in, or
appreciation of, music as music. Consider that he has asked what's so great
about Bach and about Barrios and he resists many suggestions about
musicality. Those suggestions that he has incorporated are themselves
mechanical implemented. He is interested in mechanics and numbers (and
trolling). Now, it may be that this is not what he is really like - most of
us probably appear at least somewhat different here, I'm sure - but I just
find nothing in his posts to suggest that he is otherwise. And, there's
nothing wrong with that if he is enjoying his pursuits, it's just that we
should not expect something different.
Slogoin
2010-01-29 04:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
Kent, the upshot of TG's posts is that he has little interest in, or
appreciation of, music as music. Consider that he has asked what's so great
about Bach and about Barrios and he resists many suggestions about
musicality. Those suggestions that he has