Discussion:
Bach Cello Suite No1
(too old to reply)
Tom Sacold
2007-05-21 20:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?

Most guitarists seem to play arrangements in D, similar to the Duarte which
was use by John Williams for his recording way back in the mists of time.
Looking at the Yates arrangement it seems to be more simpathetic to the
guitar and on first impressions it seems to be somewhat easier, but first
impressions are often wrong.

What do you suggest?
Larry Deack
2007-05-21 20:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sacold
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?
Most guitarists seem to play arrangements in D, similar to the Duarte which
was use by John Williams for his recording way back in the mists of time.
Looking at the Yates arrangement it seems to be more simpathetic to the
guitar and on first impressions it seems to be somewhat easier, but first
impressions are often wrong.
What do you suggest?
I've played them both and prefer the Duarte:

http://www.larrydeack.com/bachcelloprelude1.mp3

Try them both and then pick which you like. Stanley's is pretty
easy to read through and his Bach cello book is worth the price.
Andrew Schulman
2007-05-21 21:44:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
http://www.larrydeack.com/bachcelloprelude1.mp3
If this is the Duarte version there are a few wrong notes. In m. 19
the second 16th note should be an 'a', in m. 26 the 16th notes in the
3rd beat should be g#-f natural-e-f natural, in m. 30 the 16th notes
should be b-a-g-f#

I enjoyed the overall performance.

Andrew
Larry Deack
2007-05-22 00:35:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
If this is the Duarte version there are a few wrong notes.
It's more likely me. I just memorized it a couple of weeks ago and
have not played it in public yet. I changed some fingerings and may have
messed some stuff up.
Post by Andrew Schulman
In m. 19 the second 16th note should be an 'a', in m. 26 the 16th notes in the
3rd beat should be g#-f natural-e-f natural, in m. 30 the 16th notes
should be b-a-g-f#
I don't have the music here since a student is working on the piece
and I loaned him the music. He has Stanley's book also. I won't be able
to check the notes until next Monday. Geez I wish you had posted this
the first time I posted this piece for Will.
Post by Andrew Schulman
I enjoyed the overall performance.
Thanks. Very kind of you considering how sloppy it was.

It was a third take and the others had worse flaws :-( It's not a
very difficult piece but recording without edits sure brings out the
problems. That big squeak in the beginning was something I had never
done before.

Looking forward to your posted recordings! I just used crap software
and a cheap computer mic. Works good enough to post examples. I'm sure
yours will sound much better with what you are using.
Andrew Schulman
2007-05-22 03:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Looking forward to your posted recordings! I just used crap software
and a cheap computer mic. Works good enough to post examples. I'm sure
yours will sound much better with what you are using.
Jackson had requested BWV 999 which I will do in two versions, with
the notes not usually played that were discussed in that thread a
while back. I have always love this 'cello prelude and I'll record
and upload it too. My friend who's the Pro Tools pro will be by
sometime in the next week. If I can't get the sound quality I want
here he said he'll record me at his studio.

Andrew
Larry Deack
2007-05-22 03:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Jackson had requested BWV 999 which I will do in two versions, with
the notes not usually played that were discussed in that thread a
while back. I have always love this 'cello prelude and I'll record
and upload it too. My friend who's the Pro Tools pro will be by
sometime in the next week. If I can't get the sound quality I want
here he said he'll record me at his studio.
Excellent! It will be good to get away from the TEXT here and into
the music we all seem to love (except maybe dsi1).
dsi1
2007-05-22 23:26:56 UTC
Permalink
Excellent! It will be good to get away from the TEXT here and into the
music we all seem to love (except maybe dsi1).
I very much would like to be a part of the gang - this League of Bach
Loving Dudes. Alas, I have no control over what my ear finds appealing.
Not too long ago, I would have named Bach my favorite composer and said
"who the heck doesn't like Bach?" Someday soon I may reject the Spanish
music that I've been doing the last few years - but I guess I can live
with that too. :-)
Alain Reiher
2007-05-22 05:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Larry Deack
http://www.larrydeack.com/bachcelloprelude1.mp3
If this is the Duarte version there are a few wrong notes. In m. 19
the second 16th note should be an 'a', in m. 26 the 16th notes in the
3rd beat should be g#-f natural-e-f natural, in m. 30 the 16th notes
should be b-a-g-f#
I enjoyed the overall performance.
Andrew
Just finish listen to it and Ditto-kudos.

Alain
Richard F. Sayage
2007-05-21 21:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sacold
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?
Most guitarists seem to play arrangements in D, similar to the Duarte
which was use by John Williams for his recording way back in the mists of
time. Looking at the Yates arrangement it seems to be more simpathetic to
the guitar and on first impressions it seems to be somewhat easier, but
first impressions are often wrong.
What do you suggest?
Hi Tom,

You may find this more to your liking. I feel the D tuning versions screw
around with the piece a bit much...imo. This is very straight forward:

http://www.savageclassical.com/buy/cs1.html
--
Kind Regards,

Richard F. Sayage
Savage Classical GT
Bay Shore, NY 11706

www.savageclassical.com
GuitarsWeB
2007-05-21 22:39:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sacold
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?
Most guitarists seem to play arrangements in D, similar to the Duarte which
was use by John Williams for his recording way back in the mists of time.
Looking at the Yates arrangement it seems to be more simpathetic to the
guitar and on first impressions it seems to be somewhat easier, but first
impressions are often wrong.
What do you suggest?
There is a very nice one by Vincent Macaluso, in D-major.He start off
with parallel octave D's that really adds a lot to the beginning. I
have also seen arrangements by others in C Maj. that I liked.
Guitarist tend to play this ... and other Bach pieces, way too fast.
Paul McGuffin, Green Valley, Arizona
Paul McGuffin
Larry Deack
2007-05-22 00:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by GuitarsWeB
Guitarist tend to play this ... and other Bach pieces, way too fast.
Paul McGuffin, Green Valley, Arizona
I took it at about the same tempo as the recording of Yo Yo that I have.

It's not just guitarists who play it fast:



None of the guitar videos of it that I watched were as fast as
Mstislav Rostropovich's performance in this video.
GuitarsWeB
2007-05-22 01:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by GuitarsWeB
Guitarist tend to play this ... and other Bach pieces, way too fast.
Paul McGuffin, Green Valley, Arizona
I took it at about the same tempo as the recording of Yo Yo that I have.
http://youtu.be/LU_QR_FTt3E
None of the guitar videos of it that I watched were as fast as
Mstislav Rostropovich's performance in this video.
I have the two CDs by Yo Yo. For my taste, he's too fast also. Some
years back, 1986, I heard Mel Hallam play this piece. I always like
the way Mel performed it. Remember Mel? He was the guy who did the two
Videos on left had right hand technique. I understand he might be
coming out with them again in DVD form. My advice is, get three or
four arrangements of the piece and take the best of each.
Paul McGuffin
Jackson K. Eskew
2007-05-22 01:12:43 UTC
Permalink
For the Prelude, I prefer Parkening's transcription from Vol. 2 of his
method.
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-05-22 09:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sacold
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?
Avoid both. Play it in A with drop-D (6).

Of all of the Cello suites, suite #1 has the character of a bass voice
to the greatest extent. If you play it in A, you are playing a
transcription of Bach, not an arrangement. Arrangements in D are
unacceptable because of added bogus bass notes. Such arrangements are
only acceptable if the arranger is a better ocmposer than Bach. That is
unlikely in the extreme.
Post by Tom Sacold
Most guitarists seem to play arrangements in D, similar to the Duarte
which was use by John Williams for his recording way back in the mists
of time. Looking at the Yates arrangement it seems to be more
simpathetic to the guitar and on first impressions it seems to be
somewhat easier, but first impressions are often wrong.
I haven't seen it, but it probably lacks the bogus bass notes. That
would make it preferable, simply because it's Bach instead of Duarte
or whoever, but why play it in C when you could juat as easily play it
in A? (The original tonality is G)
Post by Tom Sacold
What do you suggest?
There is a version in A out there somewhere. I heard a record of
it on the radio but didn't catch the attribution. Either find it or
transpose it G-->A yourself. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
h***@verizon.net
2007-05-22 11:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Tom Sacold
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?
Avoid both. Play it in A with drop-D (6).
If you play in A with dropped-D what do you do when you get to the
long dominant pedal tone towards the end of the piece? And the big
climb to the ending arpeggio, doesn't that rely on an open bass to
have it's proper flavor?

On the cello in G or guitar in D that works very well. In C, the open
G stands in but sounds weak in comparison (to my view).

So I come down on the side of doing it in D. ( I use my own
arrangement).

You can hear it on CD baby but I am not sure it's the whole thing.

Seth
Larry Deack
2007-05-22 12:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
You can hear it on CD baby but I am not sure it's the whole thing.
Seth, give us a link.

BTW, why not post this to your web site? This is a great piece to
post since so many people play it and there are so many ways they play it.
h***@verizon.net
2007-05-22 15:07:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by h***@verizon.net
You can hear it on CD baby but I am not sure it's the whole thing.
Seth, give us a link.
BTW, why not post this to your web site? This is a great piece to
post since so many people play it and there are so many ways they play it.
http://cdbaby.com/cd/himmelhoch
Larry Deack
2007-05-22 15:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
http://cdbaby.com/cd/himmelhoch
Very nice! Almost the whole thing and a bit frustrating that it just
cuts off the end. I didn't care for the tempo change but the quality of
the sound was really clean. I had a bit of trouble playing along since
you do some pauses that I'm not used to but it seems to work well for you.

Wow, we have a whole lot of RMCG posters' versions now. This is fun.
Makes me want to record it again. Those notes Andrew said are wrong are
probably my mistakes since this sounds like what I play too.

Thanks for posting this, Seth.
Richard F. Sayage
2007-05-22 15:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by h***@verizon.net
http://cdbaby.com/cd/himmelhoch
Very nice! Almost the whole thing and a bit frustrating that it just
cuts off the end. I didn't care for the tempo change but the quality of
the sound was really clean. I had a bit of trouble playing along since you
do some pauses that I'm not used to but it seems to work well for you.
Wow, we have a whole lot of RMCG posters' versions now. This is fun.
Makes me want to record it again. Those notes Andrew said are wrong are
probably my mistakes since this sounds like what I play too.
Thanks for posting this, Seth.
Nice playing...good job, Seth. The version sounds correct, btw. The music
is always open to interpretation, pauses, tempo, etc. I listened to quite a
few other selections. All nicely done. Not too many risks taken, but some
of the choices were fun.
--
Kind Regards,

Richard F. Sayage
Savage Classical GT
Bay Shore, NY 11706

www.savageclassical.com
Alain Reiher
2007-05-22 15:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by Larry Deack
Post by h***@verizon.net
You can hear it on CD baby but I am not sure it's the whole thing.
Seth, give us a link.
BTW, why not post this to your web site? This is a great piece to
post since so many people play it and there are so many ways they play it.
http://cdbaby.com/cd/himmelhoch
To bad you cut of the ending climax ...
Just a little more passion would be well received ... but eh! i am entering
into my own perceived interpretation here. Your's is great.

Alain
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-05-23 10:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Tom Sacold
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?
Avoid both. Play it in A with drop-D (6).
If you play in A with dropped-D what do you do when you get to the
long dominant pedal tone towards the end of the piece?
??? It is open. All that needs to be done is to transpose a step
up. The bottom two strings are at the fifth, so the tuning there is
the same as the cello except one step up, which is not sufficient to
destroy the essential character of most of the piece as a bass voice.
daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-22 13:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Avoid both. Play it in A with drop-D (6).
Of all of the Cello suites, suite #1 has the character of a bass voice
to the greatest extent. If you play it in A, you are playing a
transcription of Bach, not an arrangement.
The original is in G, not A.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Arrangements in D are unacceptable because of added bogus bass notes.
Such arrangements are only acceptable if the arranger is a better ocmposer
than Bach. That is unlikely in the extreme.
One could argue that a transcription without added notes is
unacceptable because Bach himself added notes when he transcribed a
cello suite to another medium. It's also a bit much to assert that
there are no current musicians capable of writing a good bass line.
Adding a stylistically appropriate bass line to Bach's music is easier
than composing from scratch a piece as good as Bach.

Since we're taking a survey, I'll cast my vote for D major as an apt
key for BWV 1007 on guitar. I used the old Duarte edition, tweaking it
with my own changes. I also stole the descending bass line in measure
six from Manuel Ponce's arrangement. I admit this sounds more Ponce
than Bach, and doubtless I'll burn in hell for doing it.

http://www.pooretom.com/bach.html

Tom Poore
Cleveland heights, OH
USA
Larry Deack
2007-05-22 14:04:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
One could argue that a transcription without added notes is
unacceptable because Bach himself added notes when he transcribed a
cello suite to another medium. It's also a bit much to assert that
there are no current musicians capable of writing a good bass line.
Adding a stylistically appropriate bass line to Bach's music is easier
than composing from scratch a piece as good as Bach.
Since we're taking a survey, I'll cast my vote for D major as an apt
key for BWV 1007 on guitar. I used the old Duarte edition, tweaking it
with my own changes. I also stole the descending bass line in measure
six from Manuel Ponce's arrangement. I admit this sounds more Ponce
than Bach, and doubtless I'll burn in hell for doing it.
http://www.pooretom.com/bach.html
Tom Poore
Cleveland heights, OH
USA
Excellent!

I don't care for the Ponce bass line. I'd also prefer it without the
ponticello. The tempo is slower than I like it.

But, nice job.

I'll try playing along with this later since I can feel what you are
doing better when I play along with your recording. Thanks for posting
this Tom.
Larry Deack
2007-05-22 14:48:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I used the old Duarte edition,
tweaking it with my own changes.
Hmmm, seems to be the same notes as what I play but Andrew said some
notes were wrong. Andrew, can you listen to Tom's version to see if it's
just mistakes you are hearing or did Duarte change some notes? I'll
check into this some more too.
Andrew Schulman
2007-05-22 19:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Hmmm, seems to be the same notes as what I play but Andrew said some
notes were wrong. Andrew, can you listen to Tom's version to see if it's
just mistakes you are hearing or did Duarte change some notes? I'll
check into this some more too.
Tom is playing the correct notes in the m's that I had pointed out to
you.

Andrew
Larry Deack
2007-05-22 20:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Tom is playing the correct notes
in the m's that I had pointed out to you.
Then I made mistakes and Duarte is just fine. I made quite a few
mistakes in that recording. Perhaps I'll record it again later.
Andrew Schulman
2007-05-22 20:23:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Hmmm, seems to be the same notes as what I play but Andrew said some
notes were wrong. Andrew, can you listen to Tom's version to see if it's
just mistakes you are hearing or did Duarte change some notes? I'll
check into this some more too.
Larry-

You can check the notes here:
http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/bach/cello_suites/bwv1007.pdf
If you scroll down to the violin version you will have it in D major.

Andrew
Larry Deack
2007-05-22 20:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Larry-
http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/bach/cello_suites/bwv1007.pdf
If you scroll down to the violin version you will have it in D major.
Thanks, but I don't really need it now since you confirmed that Tom's
Duarte is just fine. I played along with Tom and play the same notes.
Those were just physical errors in the recording and not note reading
errors. Some notes are even missing altogether.
Alain Reiher
2007-05-22 15:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Avoid both. Play it in A with drop-D (6).
Of all of the Cello suites, suite #1 has the character of a bass voice
to the greatest extent. If you play it in A, you are playing a
transcription of Bach, not an arrangement.
The original is in G, not A.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Arrangements in D are unacceptable because of added bogus bass notes.
Such arrangements are only acceptable if the arranger is a better ocmposer
than Bach. That is unlikely in the extreme.
One could argue that a transcription without added notes is
unacceptable because Bach himself added notes when he transcribed a
cello suite to another medium. It's also a bit much to assert that
there are no current musicians capable of writing a good bass line.
Adding a stylistically appropriate bass line to Bach's music is easier
than composing from scratch a piece as good as Bach.
Since we're taking a survey, I'll cast my vote for D major as an apt
key for BWV 1007 on guitar. I used the old Duarte edition, tweaking it
with my own changes. I also stole the descending bass line in measure
six from Manuel Ponce's arrangement. I admit this sounds more Ponce
than Bach, and doubtless I'll burn in hell for doing it.
http://www.pooretom.com/bach.html
Tom Poore
Cleveland heights, OH
USA
Excellent!
I lke the added basses here and there.
Your tempo makes it sound majestic.

Alain
Andrew Schulman
2007-05-22 15:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Since we're taking a survey, I'll cast my vote for D major as an apt
key for BWV 1007 on guitar.
I agree with Tom and Seth that it works best in D. I've tried it in
G, C, A, and D. BTW, with the 8-string you can get all the bass notes
in any of the keys so it's a level playing field in trying the
different keys. I like D best in part because of the A pedal at the
end, but it also uses the fullest range of the fretboard, therefore
sounds most natural to the instrument.

As far as adding bass notes, there are hundreds of arrangements to use
as models for that, written by a fella named J. S. Bach.

Andrew
Tashi
2007-05-23 00:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Since we're taking a survey, I'll cast my vote for D major as an apt
key for BWV 1007 on guitar.
I agree with Tom and Seth that it works best in D. I've tried it in
G, C, A, and D. BTW, with the 8-string you can get all the bass notes
in any of the keys so it's a level playing field in trying the
different keys. I like D best in part because of the A pedal at the
end, but it also uses the fullest range of the fretboard, therefore
sounds most natural to the instrument.
As far as adding bass notes, there are hundreds of arrangements to use
as models for that, written by a fella named J. S. Bach.
Andrew
Damn that's a bright guitar! Sounds like you had to set the mic
pretty far away too. I'd work on warming up your recordings.
Listening to that all day would drive me crazy!
MT
Tashi
2007-05-22 16:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Tom Sacold
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?
Avoid both. Play it in A with drop-D (6).
Of all of the Cello suites, suite #1 has the character of a bass voice
to the greatest extent. If you play it in A, you are playing a
transcription of Bach, not an arrangement. Arrangements in D are
unacceptable because of added bogus bass notes. Such arrangements are
only acceptable if the arranger is a better ocmposer than Bach. That is
unlikely in the extreme.
Post by Tom Sacold
Most guitarists seem to play arrangements in D, similar to the Duarte
which was use by John Williams for his recording way back in the mists
of time. Looking at the Yates arrangement it seems to be more
simpathetic to the guitar and on first impressions it seems to be
somewhat easier, but first impressions are often wrong.
I haven't seen it, but it probably lacks the bogus bass notes. That
would make it preferable, simply because it's Bach instead of Duarte
or whoever, but why play it in C when you could juat as easily play it
in A? (The original tonality is G)
Post by Tom Sacold
What do you suggest?
There is a version in A out there somewhere. I heard a record of
it on the radio but didn't catch the attribution. Either find it or
transpose it G-->A yourself. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html:::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises.http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Oddly I find myself agreeing with DaveA on this point. I have two
arrangements for Baroque lute one by Toyohito Shato and Clive Titmus.
Toyohito's arrangement uses the lowest basses 12th and 13th strings,
quite a bit. This makes it sound too disconnected with the treble.
Titmus has an arrangement that rarely goes down that low hence giving
the piece more connectedness.

The low D tuning slightly increases this gap from treble to bass,
and hence it doesnt sound as homogeneous.

I have heard this prelude played in G on an 8 string guitar. quite
nice!
MT
Larry Deack
2007-05-22 16:30:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
I have heard this prelude played in G
on an 8 string guitar. quite nice!
It would be lovely to add your version on your Dresden guitar to the
growing list of RMCG posters who have done this piece.
Tashi
2007-05-22 21:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Tashi
I have heard this prelude played in G
on an 8 string guitar. quite nice!
It would be lovely to add your version on your Dresden guitar to the
growing list of RMCG posters who have done this piece.
I will do that, can I site read through it? I'm working on some other
stuff now However, the Allemande sounds really good on 13 strings....
Clive Titmus did a great arrangement using a harp like effect.

Tomorrow I 'll post on YouTube the Pachebel.

Right now I'm working on the Allemande of Weiss in F# minor Dresden
MS 48 the best Weiss ever wrote. I will have you all under my spell
soon......

Sorry about the repeated post something went terribly wrong......
MT
Andrew Schulman
2007-05-23 14:33:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Right now I'm working on the Allemande of Weiss in F# minor Dresden
MS48the best Weiss ever wrote.
I'm trying to find that piece here:
http://tinyurl.com/3y4jta
Is it the Suite 23 in Vol. 3?

Andrew
Tashi
2007-05-22 16:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Tom Sacold
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?
Avoid both. Play it in A with drop-D (6).
Of all of the Cello suites, suite #1 has the character of a bass voice
to the greatest extent. If you play it in A, you are playing a
transcription of Bach, not an arrangement. Arrangements in D are
unacceptable because of added bogus bass notes. Such arrangements are
only acceptable if the arranger is a better ocmposer than Bach. That is
unlikely in the extreme.
Post by Tom Sacold
Most guitarists seem to play arrangements in D, similar to the Duarte
which was use by John Williams for his recording way back in the mists
of time. Looking at the Yates arrangement it seems to be more
simpathetic to the guitar and on first impressions it seems to be
somewhat easier, but first impressions are often wrong.
I haven't seen it, but it probably lacks the bogus bass notes. That
would make it preferable, simply because it's Bach instead of Duarte
or whoever, but why play it in C when you could juat as easily play it
in A? (The original tonality is G)
Post by Tom Sacold
What do you suggest?
There is a version in A out there somewhere. I heard a record of
it on the radio but didn't catch the attribution. Either find it or
transpose it G-->A yourself. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html:::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises.http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Oddly I find myself agreeing with DaveA on this point. I have two
arrangements for Baroque lute one by Toyohito Shato and Clive Titmus.
Toyohito's arrangement uses the lowest basses 12th and 13th strings,
quite a bit. This makes it sound too disconnected with the treble.
Titmus has an arrangement that rarely goes down that low hence giving
the piece more connectedness.

The low D tuning slightly increases this gap from treble to bass,
and hence it doesnt sound as homogeneous.

I have heard this prelude played in G on an 8 string guitar. quite
nice!
MT
Carlos Barrientos
2007-05-22 17:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Did everyone forget this?

I tried it and had a great time with it!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

William D Clinger

About a year ago I remarked that steel-string guitarist John
Renbourn plays at least some of Bach's cello suites in their
original keys by tuning his guitar so four of its strings
duplicate the cello's tuning [1]. I think Renbourn uses El
McMeen's favorite tuning, CGDGAD.

Last weekend I finally got around to recording the first cello
suite in that tuning, and have added those recordings to my
web site [2].

With El McMeen's permission, I have also added my recording
of his old DADGAD arrangement of "Humours of Ballyloughlin".
El now prefers his new arrangement in CGDGAD, but I'm still
trying to learn the old one---as you can tell by listening.

Will

[1] William D Clinger. Message posted to rec.music.classical.guitar,
23 January 2004.

[2] http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/will/Music/samples.html

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Enjoy!

Carlos
Larry Deack
2007-05-22 18:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Did everyone forget this?
Uh, nope. I even said that I posted my version as a response to
Will's but thanks for posting this again. It's an interesting version.
Tashi
2007-05-22 17:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Tom Sacold
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?
Avoid both. Play it in A with drop-D (6).
Of all of the Cello suites, suite #1 has the character of a bass voice
to the greatest extent. If you play it in A, you are playing a
transcription of Bach, not an arrangement. Arrangements in D are
unacceptable because of added bogus bass notes. Such arrangements are
only acceptable if the arranger is a better ocmposer than Bach. That is
unlikely in the extreme.
Post by Tom Sacold
Most guitarists seem to play arrangements in D, similar to the Duarte
which was use by John Williams for his recording way back in the mists
of time. Looking at the Yates arrangement it seems to be more
simpathetic to the guitar and on first impressions it seems to be
somewhat easier, but first impressions are often wrong.
I haven't seen it, but it probably lacks the bogus bass notes. That
would make it preferable, simply because it's Bach instead of Duarte
or whoever, but why play it in C when you could juat as easily play it
in A? (The original tonality is G)
Post by Tom Sacold
What do you suggest?
There is a version in A out there somewhere. I heard a record of
it on the radio but didn't catch the attribution. Either find it or
transpose it G-->A yourself. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html:::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises.http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Oddly I find myself agreeing with DaveA on this point. I have two
arrangements for Baroque lute one by Toyohito Shato and Clive Titmus.
Toyohito's arrangement uses the lowest basses 12th and 13th strings,
quite a bit. This makes it sound too disconnected with the treble.
Titmus has an arrangement that rarely goes down that low hence giving
the piece more connectedness.

The low D tuning slightly increases this gap from treble to bass,
and hence it doesnt sound as homogeneous.

I have heard this prelude played in G on an 8 string guitar. quite
nice!
MT
Tashi
2007-05-22 18:47:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Tom Sacold
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?
Avoid both. Play it in A with drop-D (6).
Of all of the Cello suites, suite #1 has the character of a bass voice
to the greatest extent. If you play it in A, you are playing a
transcription of Bach, not an arrangement. Arrangements in D are
unacceptable because of added bogus bass notes. Such arrangements are
only acceptable if the arranger is a better ocmposer than Bach. That is
unlikely in the extreme.
Post by Tom Sacold
Most guitarists seem to play arrangements in D, similar to the Duarte
which was use by John Williams for his recording way back in the mists
of time. Looking at the Yates arrangement it seems to be more
simpathetic to the guitar and on first impressions it seems to be
somewhat easier, but first impressions are often wrong.
I haven't seen it, but it probably lacks the bogus bass notes. That
would make it preferable, simply because it's Bach instead of Duarte
or whoever, but why play it in C when you could juat as easily play it
in A? (The original tonality is G)
Post by Tom Sacold
What do you suggest?
There is a version in A out there somewhere. I heard a record of
it on the radio but didn't catch the attribution. Either find it or
transpose it G-->A yourself. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html:::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises.http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Oddly I find myself agreeing with DaveA on this point. I have two
arrangements for Baroque lute one by Toyohito Shato and Clive Titmus.
Toyohito's arrangement uses the lowest basses 12th and 13th strings,
quite a bit. This makes it sound too disconnected with the treble.
Titmus has an arrangement that rarely goes down that low hence giving
the piece more connectedness.

The low D tuning slightly increases this gap from treble to bass,
and hence it doesnt sound as homogeneous.

I have heard this prelude played in G on an 8 string guitar. quite
nice!
MT
Richard Yates
2007-05-22 23:54:02 UTC
Permalink
The music is straightforward enough that just about any guitarist can make
his own transcription and pick what he likes. I have placed pdf files of the
score on a guitar clef in each of the keys mentioned in this thread: A
major, D major, and C major. The links are:

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/CelloPrelude-A.pdf

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/CelloPrelude-C.pdf

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/CelloPrelude-D.pdf

Which do you prefer?

Richard Yates
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-23 13:31:16 UTC
Permalink
I have placed pdf files of the score on a guitar clef in each of
the keys mentioned in this thread: A major, D major, and C major.
Which do you prefer?
For my taste, the A major version is too muddy on the guitar. The
ending especially looses its impact, since it never moves above the
fifth fret. It's dull as dishwater.

The C major is better, but it still has problems. In mm. 31-36,
there's a D pedal that must always be a stopped note. In D major, this
pedal is the open first string E, so the left hand is free to sing the
melody against the open string pedal. I also prefer having the pedal
in mm. 37-38 on a lower open string--the third string pedal in the C
major version sounds anemic.

Doing this piece in C major smacks of being different for the sake of
being different. It's not significantly darker than D major
(presumably one reason someone would chose C over D), and it's not
more resonant (the D major version uses drop D tuning, and the I and V
chords have open string basses). Combined with the disadvantages noted
in the previous paragraph, the C major version begs the question:
what's the point?

YMMV.

Tom Poore
Cleveland HHeights, OH
USA
Stanley Yates
2007-05-23 16:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Doing this piece in C major smacks of being different for the sake of
being different. It's not significantly darker than D major
(presumably one reason someone would chose C over D), and it's not
more resonant (the D major version uses drop D tuning, and the I and V
chords have open string basses). Combined with the disadvantages noted
what's the point?
If I was to arrange just the first suite Prelude, I would probably do it in
D. Arranging the entire suite however, the effectiveness of all the
movements comes into play (the allemande and gigue don't sing very well in D
, for example, because the spelling of various arpeggiated chords doesn't
fall string-to-string). Arranging the suites as a complete cycle, not only
it necessary to take into account the effectiveness of each movement, it's
also necessary to consider the key sequence across the six suites - just as
Bach avoided duplication of keys in his cycles I believe we should do the
same. When I perform compete concerts of Bach (usually 4 large works), I
feel it's important that those 20-30 minute blocks of music are in
contrasting keys (40-60 minutes each of D and a-mi only is a bit too much!).

I've published more detail on key issues specific to the cello suites
elsewhere. Suffice it to say here, the choice of one key or another for a
suite is not simply a matter being different for the sake of being
different - it's a consequence of taking a broader perspective on the music.

SY
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-23 13:41:52 UTC
Permalink
I have placed pdf files of the score on a guitar clef in each of
the keys mentioned in this thread: A major, D major, and C major.
Which do you prefer?
For my taste, the A major version is too muddy on the guitar. The
ending especially looses its impact, since it never moves above the
fifth fret. It's dull as dishwater.

The C major is better, but it still has problems. In mm. 31-36,
there's a D pedal that must always be a stopped note. In D major, this
pedal is the open first string E, so the left hand is free to sing the
melody against the open string pedal. I also prefer having the pedal
in mm. 37-38 on a lower open string--the third string pedal in the C
major version sounds anemic.

Doing this piece in C major smacks of being different for the sake of
being different. It's not significantly darker than D major
(presumably one reason someone would chose C over D), and it's not
more resonant (the D major version uses drop D tuning, and the I and V
chords have open string basses). Combined with the disadvantages noted
in the previous paragraph, the C major version begs the question:
what's the point?

YMMV.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Tashi
2007-05-23 00:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Since we're taking a survey, I'll cast my vote for D major as an apt
key for BWV 1007 on guitar.
I agree with Tom and Seth that it works best in D. I've tried it in
G, C, A, and D. BTW, with the 8-string you can get all the bass notes
in any of the keys so it's a level playing field in trying the
different keys. I like D best in part because of the A pedal at the
end, but it also uses the fullest range of the fretboard, therefore
sounds most natural to the instrument.
As far as adding bass notes, there are hundreds of arrangements to use
as models for that, written by a fella named J. S. Bach.
Andrew
Damn that's a bright guitar! Sounds like you had to set the mic
pretty far away too. I'd work on warming up your recordings.
Listening to that all day would drive me crazy!
MT
Oops sorry that was supposed to be addresed to Tom Poore!
MT
Tashi
2007-05-23 00:23:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Since we're taking a survey, I'll cast my vote for D major as an apt
key for BWV 1007 on guitar.
I agree with Tom and Seth that it works best in D. I've tried it in
G, C, A, and D. BTW, with the 8-string you can get all the bass notes
in any of the keys so it's a level playing field in trying the
different keys. I like D best in part because of the A pedal at the
end, but it also uses the fullest range of the fretboard, therefore
sounds most natural to the instrument.
As far as adding bass notes, there are hundreds of arrangements to use
as models for that, written by a fella named J. S. Bach.
Andrew
Damn that's a bright guitar! Sounds like you had to set the mic
pretty far away too. I'd work on warming up your recordings.
Listening to that all day would drive me crazy!
MT
Oops sorry that was supposed to be addresed to Tom Poore!
MT
Tashi
2007-05-23 00:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Since we're taking a survey, I'll cast my vote for D major as an apt
key for BWV 1007 on guitar.
I agree with Tom and Seth that it works best in D. I've tried it in
G, C, A, and D. BTW, with the 8-string you can get all the bass notes
in any of the keys so it's a level playing field in trying the
different keys. I like D best in part because of the A pedal at the
end, but it also uses the fullest range of the fretboard, therefore
sounds most natural to the instrument.
As far as adding bass notes, there are hundreds of arrangements to use
as models for that, written by a fella named J. S. Bach.
Andrew
Damn that's a bright guitar! Sounds like you had to set the mic
pretty far away too. I'd work on warming up your recordings.
Listening to that all day would drive me crazy!
MT
Oops sorry that was supposed to be addresed to Tom Poore!
MT
Andrew Schulman
2007-05-23 04:24:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Oops sorry that was supposed to be addresed to Tom Poore!
I've also had trouble with getting repeat posts of the same message in
the last few days like Tashi just did. Also it takes a long time for
posts to show up.

I wonder if the Google people are changing some things again and
that's why the malfunctions are happening. Anybody else having
trouble posting?

Andrew
Peter Terpstra
2007-05-23 06:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
I wonder if the Google people are changing some things again and
that's why the malfunctions are happening.  Anybody else having
trouble posting?
Try a newsreader with a deasent newsserver.

Peter
--
mailto:***@dharma.dyndns.info
Andrew Schulman
2007-05-23 14:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Terpstra
Post by Andrew Schulman
I wonder if the Google people are changing some things again and
that's why the malfunctions are happening. Anybody else having
trouble posting?
Try a newsreader with a deasent newsserver.
I have one, but I prefer going to the Google site.

Andrew
Tashi
2007-05-23 15:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I have placed pdf files of the score on a guitar clef in each of
the keys mentioned in this thread: A major, D major, and C major.
Which do you prefer?
For my taste, the A major version is too muddy on the guitar. The
ending especially looses its impact, since it never moves above the
fifth fret. It's dull as dishwater.
The C major is better, but it still has problems. In mm. 31-36,
there's a D pedal that must always be a stopped note. In D major, this
pedal is the open first string E, so the left hand is free to sing the
melody against the open string pedal. I also prefer having the pedal
in mm. 37-38 on a lower open string--the third string pedal in the C
major version sounds anemic.
Doing this piece in C major smacks of being different for the sake of
being different. It's not significantly darker than D major
(presumably one reason someone would chose C over D), and it's not
more resonant (the D major version uses drop D tuning, and the I and V
chords have open string basses). Combined with the disadvantages noted
what's the point?
YMMV.
Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Because, D major is the default key on the guitar along with E major.
It becomes rather tiresome to always hear these keys. Personally I
play it in E flat Major, but then agian I have a few more options than
you land lovers.
MT
Tashi
2007-05-23 15:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
MS48the best Weiss ever wrote.
I'm trying to find that piece here:http://tinyurl.com/3y4jta
Is it the Suite 23 in Vol. 3?
Andrew
Andrew, Yes that's the one. Bob Barto said, of all Weiss's Allemandes
this was the most beautiful, and Bob should know. The Presto is also a
hit. I'm suprised more guitarists haven't played this one. I don't
know how well it fits on the guitar though. You might be able to come
up with something for 8 strings.
Barto recorded this F# minor Sonata on his volume 7 Naxos. Hoppy
Smith did it too, but I listened to it once, and threw it away, Hoppy
can't keep a steady pulse going in Bach or Weiss. The genius of Barto
is every voice is heard and his forward momentum is so powerful.
MT
GuitarsWeB
2007-05-23 17:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I have placed pdf files of the score on a guitar clef in each of
the keys mentioned in this thread: A major, D major, and C major.
Which do you prefer?
For my taste, the A major version is too muddy on the guitar. The
ending especially looses its impact, since it never moves above the
fifth fret. It's dull as dishwater.
The C major is better, but it still has problems. In mm. 31-36,
there's a D pedal that must always be a stopped note. In D major, this
pedal is the open first string E, so the left hand is free to sing the
melody against the open string pedal. I also prefer having the pedal
in mm. 37-38 on a lower open string--the third string pedal in the C
major version sounds anemic.
Doing this piece in C major smacks of being different for the sake of
being different. It's not significantly darker than D major
(presumably one reason someone would chose C over D), and it's not
more resonant (the D major version uses drop D tuning, and the I and V
chords have open string basses). Combined with the disadvantages noted
what's the point?
YMMV.
Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Because, D major is the default key on the guitar along with E major.
It becomes rather tiresome to always hear these keys. Personally I
play it in E flat Major, but then agian I have a few more options than
you land lovers.
MT
E flat Major .. you might be able to do that on a 6 string instrument
with a DGDGBE tuning. Maybe....But, we must always remember, all these
arrangements, on guitar, are a compromise, and not just Bach.
Paul McGuffin
GuitarsWeB
2007-05-23 17:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I have placed pdf files of the score on a guitar clef in each of
the keys mentioned in this thread: A major, D major, and C major.
Which do you prefer?
For my taste, the A major version is too muddy on the guitar. The
ending especially looses its impact, since it never moves above the
fifth fret. It's dull as dishwater.
The C major is better, but it still has problems. In mm. 31-36,
there's a D pedal that must always be a stopped note. In D major, this
pedal is the open first string E, so the left hand is free to sing the
melody against the open string pedal. I also prefer having the pedal
in mm. 37-38 on a lower open string--the third string pedal in the C
major version sounds anemic.
Doing this piece in C major smacks of being different for the sake of
being different. It's not significantly darker than D major
(presumably one reason someone would chose C over D), and it's not
more resonant (the D major version uses drop D tuning, and the I and V
chords have open string basses). Combined with the disadvantages noted
what's the point?
YMMV.
Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Because, D major is the default key on the guitar along with E major.
It becomes rather tiresome to always hear these keys. Personally I
play it in E flat Major, but then agian I have a few more options than
you land lovers.
MT
E flat Major .. you might be able to do that on a 6 string instrument
with a DGDGBE tuning. Maybe....But, we must always remember, all these
arrangements, on guitar, are a compromise, and not just Bach.
Paul McGuffin
GuitarsWeB
2007-05-23 17:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I have placed pdf files of the score on a guitar clef in each of
the keys mentioned in this thread: A major, D major, and C major.
Which do you prefer?
For my taste, the A major version is too muddy on the guitar. The
ending especially looses its impact, since it never moves above the
fifth fret. It's dull as dishwater.
The C major is better, but it still has problems. In mm. 31-36,
there's a D pedal that must always be a stopped note. In D major, this
pedal is the open first string E, so the left hand is free to sing the
melody against the open string pedal. I also prefer having the pedal
in mm. 37-38 on a lower open string--the third string pedal in the C
major version sounds anemic.
Doing this piece in C major smacks of being different for the sake of
being different. It's not significantly darker than D major
(presumably one reason someone would chose C over D), and it's not
more resonant (the D major version uses drop D tuning, and the I and V
chords have open string basses). Combined with the disadvantages noted
what's the point?
YMMV.
Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Because, D major is the default key on the guitar along with E major.
It becomes rather tiresome to always hear these keys. Personally I
play it in E flat Major, but then agian I have a few more options than
you land lovers.
MT
E flat Major .. you might be able to do that on a 6 string instrument
with a DGDGBE tuning. Maybe....But, we must always remember, all these
arrangements, on guitar, are a compromise, and not just Bach.
Paul McGuffin
GuitarsWeB
2007-05-23 17:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I have placed pdf files of the score on a guitar clef in each of
the keys mentioned in this thread: A major, D major, and C major.
Which do you prefer?
For my taste, the A major version is too muddy on the guitar. The
ending especially looses its impact, since it never moves above the
fifth fret. It's dull as dishwater.
The C major is better, but it still has problems. In mm. 31-36,
there's a D pedal that must always be a stopped note. In D major, this
pedal is the open first string E, so the left hand is free to sing the
melody against the open string pedal. I also prefer having the pedal
in mm. 37-38 on a lower open string--the third string pedal in the C
major version sounds anemic.
Doing this piece in C major smacks of being different for the sake of
being different. It's not significantly darker than D major
(presumably one reason someone would chose C over D), and it's not
more resonant (the D major version uses drop D tuning, and the I and V
chords have open string basses). Combined with the disadvantages noted
what's the point?
YMMV.
Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Because, D major is the default key on the guitar along with E major.
It becomes rather tiresome to always hear these keys. Personally I
play it in E flat Major, but then agian I have a few more options than
you land lovers.
MT
E flat Major .. you might be able to do that on a 6 string instrument
with a DGDGBE tuning. Maybe....But, we must always remember, all these
arrangements, on guitar, are a compromise, and not just Bach.
Paul McGuffin
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-24 00:42:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
If I was to arrange just the first suite Prelude, I would probably
do it in D. Arranging the entire suite however, the effectiveness
of all the movements comes into play (the allemande and gigue
don't sing very well in D, for example, because the spelling of
various arpeggiated chords doesn't fall string-to-string).
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But I see no evidence
that any movement of BWV 1007 is unsuited to D major on the guitar. In
fact, many teachers assign this as a first Bach suite for their
students. This suggests that, as Bach suites go, it's relatively
accessible.
Post by Stanley Yates
Arranging the suites as a complete cycle, not only it necessary
to take into account the effectiveness of each movement, it's
also necessary to consider the key sequence across the six
suites - just as Bach avoided duplication of keys in his cycles
I believe we should do the same. When I perform compete con-
certs of Bach (usually 4 large works), I feel it's important that
those 20-30 minute blocks of music are in contrasting keys
(40-60 minutes each of D and a-mi only is a bit too much!).
The cello suites original keys are G Major, D Minor, C Major, Eb
Major, C Minor, and D Major. Obviously Bach himself had no problem
with two suites in D, nor did he have a problem with two other suites
in C.

Further, your claim that Bach avoided duplication of keys in his
cycles is easily refuted. In the six Brandenburg Concertos, two are in
F Major and two are in G Major. Fourteen of the sixteen movements of A
Musical Offering are in the same key. The Art of Fugue is entirely in
one key.
Post by Stanley Yates
I've published more detail on key issues specific to the cello
suites elsewhere. Suffice it to say here, the choice of one key
or another for a suite is not simply a matter being different for
the sake of being different - it's a consequence of taking a broader
perspective on the music.
Fine, so long as you recognize that your solution has more to do with
your own taste and less to do with Bach's.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Tashi
2007-05-24 01:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Stanley Yates
If I was to arrange just the first suite Prelude, I would probably
do it in D. Arranging the entire suite however, the effectiveness
of all the movements comes into play (the allemande and gigue
don't sing very well in D, for example, because the spelling of
various arpeggiated chords doesn't fall string-to-string).
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But I see no evidence
that any movement of BWV 1007 is unsuited to D major on the guitar. In
fact, many teachers assign this as a first Bach suite for their
students. This suggests that, as Bach suites go, it's relatively
accessible.
Post by Stanley Yates
Arranging the suites as a complete cycle, not only it necessary
to take into account the effectiveness of each movement, it's
also necessary to consider the key sequence across the six
suites - just as Bach avoided duplication of keys in his cycles
I believe we should do the same. When I perform compete con-
certs of Bach (usually 4 large works), I feel it's important that
those 20-30 minute blocks of music are in contrasting keys
(40-60 minutes each of D and a-mi only is a bit too much!).
The cello suites original keys are G Major, D Minor, C Major, Eb
Major, C Minor, and D Major. Obviously Bach himself had no problem
with two suites in D, nor did he have a problem with two other suites
in C.
Minor and major?
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Further, your claim that Bach avoided duplication of keys in his
cycles is easily refuted. In the six Brandenburg Concertos, two are in
F Major and two are in G Major. Fourteen of the sixteen movements of A
Musical Offering are in the same key. The Art of Fugue is entirely in
one key.
Tom hate to tell you but the Brandenburg concertos are not stylized
suites.... but you knew that, didn't you!
MT
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Stanley Yates
I've published more detail on key issues specific to the cello
suites elsewhere. Suffice it to say here, the choice of one key
or another for a suite is not simply a matter being different for
the sake of being different - it's a consequence of taking a broader
perspective on the music.
Fine, so long as you recognize that your solution has more to do with
your own taste and less to do with Bach's.
You speak for Bach? I hope you know that your solution has nothing
to do with anything other than making it approachable to you, and your
beginner students.
MT
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Stanley Yates
2007-05-24 02:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But I see no evidence
that any movement of BWV 1007 is unsuited to D major on the guitar. In
fact, many teachers assign this as a first Bach suite for their
students. This suggests that, as Bach suites go, it's relatively
accessible.
All it suggests is that many people play the piece in the key has
traditionally been associated with the piece. There's a simple lineage:
Ponce arranged the Prelude in D with low basses; Duarte essentially adopted
this and added the rest of the movements to this in D (and in a harmonic
realization more aligned with Ponce than with Bach!), published by a major
distributed publisher; most subsequent editions tinker with this one.
Post by a***@yahoo.com
The cello suites original keys are G Major, D Minor, C Major, Eb
Major, C Minor, and D Major. Obviously Bach himself had no problem
with two suites in D, nor did he have a problem with two other suites
in C.
Further, your claim that Bach avoided duplication of keys in his
cycles is easily refuted. In the six Brandenburg Concertos, two are in
F Major and two are in G Major. Fourteen of the sixteen movements of A
Musical Offering are in the same key. The Art of Fugue is entirely in
one key.
Of course it's easy to find example of key duplication. However, it's even
easier to demonstate that when instrumental idioms are not a restricting
factor (such as in the Brandernburg cycle) Bach clearly prefered varied keys
in cyclic works - for example, the 6 unaccompanied violin works, the 6
accompanied violin sonatas, the 6 French Suites, the 6 Keyboard Partititas,
etc. In fact, Bach's interest in comprehensive key variation is empimized in
probally his most famous works: the Well-tempered Claviar and the Inventions
and Sinfonias.
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Fine, so long as you recognize that your solution has more to do with
your own taste and less to do with Bach's.
It has to do with both.

SY
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-24 00:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
If I was to arrange just the first suite Prelude, I would probably
do it in D. Arranging the entire suite however, the effectiveness
of all the movements comes into play (the allemande and gigue
don't sing very well in D, for example, because the spelling of
various arpeggiated chords doesn't fall string-to-string).
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But I see no evidence
that any movement of BWV 1007 is unsuited to D major on the guitar. In
fact, many teachers assign this as a first Bach suite for their
students. This suggests that, as Bach suites go, it's relatively
accessible.
Post by Stanley Yates
Arranging the suites as a complete cycle, not only it necessary
to take into account the effectiveness of each movement, it's
also necessary to consider the key sequence across the six
suites - just as Bach avoided duplication of keys in his cycles
I believe we should do the same. When I perform compete con-
certs of Bach (usually 4 large works), I feel it's important that
those 20-30 minute blocks of music are in contrasting keys
(40-60 minutes each of D and a-mi only is a bit too much!).
The cello suites original keys are G Major, D Minor, C Major, Eb
Major, C Minor, and D Major. Obviously Bach himself had no problem
with two suites in D, nor did he have a problem with two other suites
in C.

Further, your claim that Bach avoided duplication of keys in his
cycles is easily refuted. In the six Brandenburg Concertos, two are in
F Major and two are in G Major. Fourteen of the sixteen movements of A
Musical Offering are in the same key. The Art of Fugue is entirely in
one key.
Post by Stanley Yates
I've published more detail on key issues specific to the cello
suites elsewhere. Suffice it to say here, the choice of one key
or another for a suite is not simply a matter being different for
the sake of being different - it's a consequence of taking a broader
perspective on the music.
Fine, so long as you recognize that your solution has more to do with
your own taste and less to do with Bach's.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-24 00:42:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
If I was to arrange just the first suite Prelude, I would probably
do it in D. Arranging the entire suite however, the effectiveness
of all the movements comes into play (the allemande and gigue
don't sing very well in D, for example, because the spelling of
various arpeggiated chords doesn't fall string-to-string).
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But I see no evidence
that any movement of BWV 1007 is unsuited to D major on the guitar. In
fact, many teachers assign this as a first Bach suite for their
students. This suggests that, as Bach suites go, it's relatively
accessible.
Post by Stanley Yates
Arranging the suites as a complete cycle, not only it necessary
to take into account the effectiveness of each movement, it's
also necessary to consider the key sequence across the six
suites - just as Bach avoided duplication of keys in his cycles
I believe we should do the same. When I perform compete con-
certs of Bach (usually 4 large works), I feel it's important that
those 20-30 minute blocks of music are in contrasting keys
(40-60 minutes each of D and a-mi only is a bit too much!).
The cello suites original keys are G Major, D Minor, C Major, Eb
Major, C Minor, and D Major. Obviously Bach himself had no problem
with two suites in D, nor did he have a problem with two other suites
in C.

Further, your claim that Bach avoided duplication of keys in his
cycles is easily refuted. In the six Brandenburg Concertos, two are in
F Major and two are in G Major. Fourteen of the sixteen movements of A
Musical Offering are in the same key. The Art of Fugue is entirely in
one key.
Post by Stanley Yates
I've published more detail on key issues specific to the cello
suites elsewhere. Suffice it to say here, the choice of one key
or another for a suite is not simply a matter being different for
the sake of being different - it's a consequence of taking a broader
perspective on the music.
Fine, so long as you recognize that your solution has more to do with
your own taste and less to do with Bach's.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-24 00:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
If I was to arrange just the first suite Prelude, I would probably
do it in D. Arranging the entire suite however, the effectiveness
of all the movements comes into play (the allemande and gigue
don't sing very well in D, for example, because the spelling of
various arpeggiated chords doesn't fall string-to-string).
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But I see no evidence
that any movement of BWV 1007 is unsuited to D major on the guitar. In
fact, many teachers assign this as a first Bach suite for their
students. This suggests that, as Bach suites go, it's relatively
accessible.
Post by Stanley Yates
Arranging the suites as a complete cycle, not only it necessary
to take into account the effectiveness of each movement, it's
also necessary to consider the key sequence across the six
suites - just as Bach avoided duplication of keys in his cycles
I believe we should do the same. When I perform compete con-
certs of Bach (usually 4 large works), I feel it's important that
those 20-30 minute blocks of music are in contrasting keys
(40-60 minutes each of D and a-mi only is a bit too much!).
The original keys are G Major, D Minor, C Major, Eb Major, C Minor,
and D Major. Obviously Bach himself had no problem with two suites in
D, nor did he have a problem with two other suites in C. Further, your
claim that Bach avoided duplication of keys in his cycles is easily
refuted. In the six Brandenburg Concertos, two are in F Major and two
are in G Major. Fourteen of the sixteen movements of A Musical
Offering are in the same key. The Art of Fugue is entirely in one key.
Post by Stanley Yates
I've published more detail on key issues specific to the cello
suites elsewhere. Suffice it to say here, the choice of one key
or another for a suite is not simply a matter being different for
the sake of being different - it's a consequence of taking a broader
perspective on the music.
Fine, so long as you recognize that your solution has more to do with
your own taste and less to do with Bach's.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-24 01:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
If I was to arrange just the first suite Prelude, I would probably
do it in D. Arranging the entire suite however, the effectiveness
of all the movements comes into play (the allemande and gigue
don't sing very well in D, for example, because the spelling of
various arpeggiated chords doesn't fall string-to-string).
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But I see no evidence
that any movement of BWV 1007 is unsuited to D major on the guitar. In
fact, many teachers assign this as a first Bach suite for their
students. This suggests that, as Bach suites go, it's relatively
accessible.
Post by Stanley Yates
Arranging the suites as a complete cycle, not only it necessary
to take into account the effectiveness of each movement, it's
also necessary to consider the key sequence across the six
suites - just as Bach avoided duplication of keys in his cycles
I believe we should do the same. When I perform compete con-
certs of Bach (usually 4 large works), I feel it's important that
those 20-30 minute blocks of music are in contrasting keys
(40-60 minutes each of D and a-mi only is a bit too much!).
The original keys are G Major, D Minor, C Major, Eb Major, C Minor,
and D Major. Obviously Bach himself had no problem with two suites in
D, nor did he have a problem with two other suites in C. Further, your
claim that Bach avoided duplication of keys in his cycles is easily
refuted. In the six Brandenburg Concertos, two are in F Major and two
are in G Major. Fourteen of the sixteen movements of A Musical
Offering are in the same key. The Art of Fugue is entirely in one key.
Post by Stanley Yates
I've published more detail on key issues specific to the cello
suites elsewhere. Suffice it to say here, the choice of one key
or another for a suite is not simply a matter being different for
the sake of being different - it's a consequence of taking a broader
perspective on the music.
Fine, so long as you recognize that your solution has more to do with
your own taste and less to do with Bach's.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
y***@apsu.edu
2007-05-24 02:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
The original keys are G Major, D Minor, C Major, Eb Major, C Minor,
and D Major. Obviously Bach himself had no problem with two suites in
D, nor did he have a problem with two other suites in C.
Also, in the few cycles in which Bach duplicates a tonality (such as
the English Suites and the cello suites), the duplication is
accomampanied with a corresponding change of modality as well. D major
and d-minor are not the same key and you will generally not find two
suites of a cycle in the major tonality (or minor modality). But this
is simple "bon gout" and is so obvious that it really doesn't warrant
any kind of historical sampling or analytic justification.

SY
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-24 12:24:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Of course it's easy to find example of key duplication. However, it's
even easier to demonstate that when instrumental idioms are not a
restricting factor (such as in the Brandernburg cycle) Bach clearly
prefered varied keys in cyclic works - for example, the 6 unaccompanied
violin works, the 6 accompanied violin sonatas, the 6 French Suites,
the 6 Keyboard Partititas, etc. In fact, Bach's interest in comprehensive
key variation is empimized in probally his most famous works: the
Well-tempered Claviar and the Inventions and Sinfonias.
Also, in the few cycles in which Bach duplicates a tonality (such as
the English Suites and the cello suites), the duplication is
accomampanied with a corresponding change of modality as well. D major
and d-minor are not the same key and you will generally not find two
suites of a cycle in the major tonality (or minor modality). But this
is simple "bon gout" and is so obvious that it really doesn't warrant
any kind of historical sampling or analytic justification.
You're saying Bach never repeated keys in a cycle of pieces, except
when he did, and those don't count. But I'll grant you this point.
Clearly, Bach intended that no major or minor key was to be repeated
in the cello suites.

But one might ask why you preserved this intention of Bach's, but not
others. Bach wrote the BWV 1007 Prelude to exploit the open strings of
the cello. In mm. 31-36, the pedal A falls on an open string. Clearly
this was intentional--it frees the left hand to sing the melody
against the open string pedal. In D Major on the guitar, this effect
is preserved. In C Major on the guitar, this effect is lost. While one
might disagree with the Ponce, Duarte, and other arrangements in D
Major, one can't deny that they better preserve Bach's original intent
compared to your arrangement in C Major.

We might frame the question of key choice thus: is it more important
to preserve the variety of keys across all six suites, or is it more
important to preserve the musical effect within each individual piece?
For me at least, the answer is suggested by the following. Preserving
key variety is an issue only when all six suites are performed in one
sitting. Preserving the musical effect within each piece is an issue
every time the piece is performed. We're comparing an issue that comes
up rarely to an issue that comes up always. So in this case I would
opt for preserving the musical effect of the individual piece.

You've suggested that making an arrangement is a balance between the
arranger's taste and the original composer's taste. Very true, and
clearly your taste was a strong factor in your arrangement of the BWV
1007 Prelude. It's obvious from your Bach recording that you take a
keyboard oriented view of performing these suites. Guitar (or more
generally speaking, string) effects such as vibrato, portamento,
varied tone color, and left hand slurs are used sparingly. I submit
that your keyboard oriented view made it less likely that you would
preserve string oriented textures in your arrangement. This is a valid
view insofar as you can make a compelling case for it in your playing.
And that, of course, is up to listeners to decide for themselves.

By the way, it's fashionable nowadays to dismiss Ponce's arrangement
as hopelessly inauthentic. But Bach himself freely arranged other
composers' music in a way that had little to do with the original
composer's taste. In this light, maybe Ponce was more historically
correct than is commonly thought.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Stanley Yates
2007-05-25 16:00:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
But one might ask why you preserved this intention of Bach's, but not
others. Bach wrote the BWV 1007 Prelude to exploit the open strings of
the cello. In mm. 31-36, the pedal A falls on an open string. Clearly
this was intentional--it frees the left hand to sing the melody
against the open string pedal.
Just about all of Bach's unaccompanied string preludes (and some other
movements) utilize (what's known as) "bariolage" passages, it's not just a
feature of the first suite prelude. Some of the best-known, standard
warhorse items of the "Bach-guitar" repertoire reproduce bariolage without
using open strings. For example, both the chaconne and the 4th "lute suite"
prelude are routinely performed on the guitar with a third string-second
fret (A) extended bariolage pedal tone (and the consequently well-known
stretches in the left-hand . (In my b-mi arrangement of the chaconne, this
pitch happens to be an open third string F#; and in my e-mi arrangement it
happens to be an open second-strign B.) There are many factors to balance in
picking keys, beyond simple traditition, and the open string bariolage is
merely one of them.
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Preserving
key variety is an issue only when all six suites are performed in one
sitting. Preserving the musical effect within each piece is an issue
every time the piece is performed. We're comparing an issue that comes
up rarely to an issue that comes up always. So in this case I would
opt for preserving the musical effect of the individual piece.
It might not be common for many to perform complete cycles, or 3 or 4 suites
at a time, but it is quite common for me. Also, when one records a cycle,
the key issue comes into play.
Post by a***@yahoo.com
It's obvious from your Bach recording that you take a
keyboard oriented view of performing these suites. Guitar (or more
generally speaking, string) effects such as vibrato, portamento,
varied tone color, and left hand slurs are used sparingly. I submit
that your keyboard oriented view made it less likely that you would
preserve string oriented textures in your arrangement. This is a valid
view insofar as you can make a compelling case for it in your playing.
And that, of course, is up to listeners to decide for themselves.
My Bach recording is a "slice" taken over a couple of afternoons in a
recording studio a decade ago. I wouldn't regard it as a definitive account
of my approach to playing Bach (it's more an approach to getting through 3
Bach suites relatively unscathed with the minimal number of takes and hours
alloted by the record label!). Nevertheless, the keyboard was not much of a
factor at all in my approach to arranging or playing this music. Neither was
the cello or the violin. The performance and textural model I adopted was
based on lute and baroque guitar textures and continuo playing, through a
modern filter of ornamental articulation. So, in this context, the use of
vibrato is ornamental (as it was at the time), timbral change is structural,
and portamento is not used at all (since this music is motivic rather than
melodic). Slurring is a whole other issue - textural slurring, ornamental
slurring, motivic slurring, technical slurring, motivic-expressive slurs
articulated with the right hand through accentuation, etc. There's a 16,000
word essay appended to my edition that goes over much of this.

SY
Larry Deack
2007-05-25 16:19:01 UTC
Permalink
There's a 16,000 word essay appended
to my edition that goes over much of this.
Not just words but lots of excellent musical examples. This alone is
worth the price of this edition IMO.
Tashi
2007-05-25 16:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
There's a 16,000 word essay appended
to my edition that goes over much of this.
Not just words but lots of excellent musical examples. This alone is
worth the price of this edition IMO.
Yea Damn, Stanley's edition is enough to make me give up the 13 string
thing and go back to playing it all on a 6 string again. I had
Stanley's Cello suites edition but after I started in with the lute
and 13 string guitar I figured I'd never play them on guitar again, so
I gave it away to Carlos Lomas a Flamenco guitarists out here.


I think I must buy another edition from Stanley.
MT
wollybird
2007-05-26 01:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Larry Deack
There's a 16,000 word essay appended
to my edition that goes over much of this.
Not just words but lots of excellent musical examples. This alone is
worth the price of this edition IMO.
Yea Damn, Stanley's edition is enough to make me give up the 13 string
thing and go back to playing it all on a 6 string again. I had
Stanley's Cello suites edition but after I started in with the lute
and 13 string guitar I figured I'd never play them on guitar again, so
I gave it away to Carlos Lomas a Flamenco guitarists out here.
I think I must buy another edition from Stanley.
MT
I bought mine at the music store. Much closer.
Stanley Yates
2007-05-26 04:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
There's a 16,000 word essay appended
to my edition that goes over much of this.
Not just words but lots of excellent musical examples. This alone is
worth the price of this edition IMO.
Thanks Larry, though $25.95 (or whatever it is) won't cover the cost of
having my front lawn mowed...

SY
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-26 12:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
By the way, none of the numerous (almost embarassingly
hyperbiloc) multi-national reviews of my edition and recording
questioned my choice of keys (and neither did the several
performers who have recorded my Bach realizations).
I tend to be skeptical of critical opinion within the guitar
community. Reviews seldom dig deep, and matters that might be at least
questioned are routinely ignored. One example, which has yet to be
raised in this discussion, is your decision to occasionally change
notes from Bach's original. Certainly you've made no secret of this--
you explained your reasons for doing so in the text of your edition.
Still, it's curious that your decision has raised so little objection,
particularly since your changes seem more a reflection of your taste
rather than any need to change the notes to suit the guitar.
Post by Stanley Yates
Still, it's a matter of personal taste - if you don't like the first
suite in C, that's your opinion and I have no problem with that.
But please do not suggest my decision to adopt this or that
key was simply an attempt to be different.
Deal. And you'll no longer suggest that those who play it in D do so
out of blind allegiance to tradition.
Post by Stanley Yates
I'm glad your student is making good use of my Albeniz
arrangement.
Well, he's working on it. We'll see if he makes good use of it.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-26 01:01:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Just about all of Bach's unaccompanied string preludes (and
some other movements) utilize (what's known as) "bariolage"
passages, it's not just a feature of the first suite prelude. Some
of the best-known, standard warhorse items of the "Bach-guitar"
repertoire reproduce bariolage without using open strings. For
example, both the chaconne and the 4th "lute suite" prelude are
routinely performed on the guitar with a third string-second fret (A)
extended bariolage pedal tone (and the consequently well-known
stretches in the left-hand . (In my b-mi arrangement of the chaconne,
this pitch happens to be an open third string F#; and in my e-mi
arrangement it happens to be an open second-strign B.) There are
many factors to balance in picking keys, beyond simple traditition,
and the open string bariolage is merely one of them.
None of this supports your decision to arrange BWV 1007 in C Major. If
anything, it weakens it. For example, few would suggest recasting into
another key the guitar transcription of the BWV 1006a Prelude, for the
obvious reason that no other key so well serves the bariolage texture
throughout the piece. The one stretch you're referring to doesn't
change the fact that, overall, the piece sits well in E Major.
Post by Stanley Yates
It might not be common for many to perform complete cycles, or 3
or 4 suites at a time, but it is quite common for me. Also, when one
records a cycle, the key issue comes into play.
First, I doubt that you give many performances of all six cello suites
in one concert. Second, playing BWV 1007 in D Major would mean that
two of the six suites would be in the same key. That's not much of a
hardship for your audience. Indeed, I've attended recitals in which
all four lute suites were performed: two in A Minor, one in E Minor,
and one in E Major. No one bolted for the exits complaining about the
repeated keys. Finally, if repeating D major one time across six
suites is really so bothersome, then use a capo on one of the D Major
suites. The fact that you used a capo on your Bach recording makes
your argument against transcribing two suites in D Major all the more
questionable.

A general observation. You objected when I suggested that doing BWV
1007 in C Major is being different for the sake of being different. (I
might add that I was responding to the C Major transcription posted by
Richard Yates.) Your objection is a fair one and duly noted. But
consider that, during this thread, you've repeatedly invoked tradition
as a reason so many guitarists play BWV 1007 in D Major. To imply that
we're genuflecting toward the altar of tradition seems a bit unfair. A
better explanation is simple practicality, one that in other cases you
recognize no less than the rest of us. In your transcription of
Asturias, for example, you very sensibly did it in E Minor. You did
this not out of subservience to tradition, but because Asturias sits
well on the guitar in this key. Those of us who play BWV 1007 in D
Major do so for the same reason.

By the way, one of my students is working on your Asturias
transcription. I appreciate that you've made it available on your web
site.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Matanya Ophee
2007-05-26 02:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
None of this supports your decision to arrange BWV 1007 in C Major. If
anything, it weakens it.
It actually does. It should be noted that the setting of the prelude
from BWV 1007 in C Major is not a new invention by Stanley Yates. It
was first so arranged and published in the Soviet Union in 1939 by
Vasilii Iuriev for the Russian seven-string guitar . That arrangement
was ripped off by Siegfried Behrend who published it, adjusted for
the standard guitar in the 1950s with Bote & Bock in Berlin. It is
still in print. Here, for your amusement and edification, is my own
version of the Iuriev transcription, to which I added a few bass notes
I am renting from Stanley Yates.

http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/rmcg/prel-1007.pdf

This should be fairly easy to play on a standard six-string guitar in
open G tuning. As Vasilii Iuriev would have said: Endzhoitye!
Post by a***@yahoo.com
For example, few would suggest recasting into
another key the guitar transcription of the BWV 1006a Prelude, for the
obvious reason that no other key so well serves the bariolage texture
throughout the piece.
You have no idea how right you are! When Bach himself decided to
recast this prelude as a Sinfonia for organ and orchestra, (BWV 29),
he transposed the piece to D Major, and did away with the bariolage
textures. Which in essence makes it into an entirely different piece.
But that is another story...:-)



Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Stanley Yates
2007-05-26 03:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by a***@yahoo.com
None of this supports your decision to arrange BWV 1007 in C Major. If
anything, it weakens it.
It actually does. It should be noted that the setting of the prelude
from BWV 1007 in C Major is not a new invention by Stanley Yates. It
was first so arranged and published in the Soviet Union in 1939 by
Vasilii Iuriev for the Russian seven-string guitar . That arrangement
was ripped off by Siegfried Behrend who published it, adjusted for
the standard guitar in the 1950s with Bote & Bock in Berlin. It is
still in print. Here, for your amusement and edification, is my own
version of the Iuriev transcription, to which I added a few bass notes
I am renting from Stanley Yates.
http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/rmcg/prel-1007.pdf
They're not rented, they're on an indefinate loan. But if you'd like to rent
them I'll gladly collect the monthly...

SY
Matanya Ophee
2007-05-26 15:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by a***@yahoo.com
None of this supports your decision to arrange BWV 1007 in C Major. If
anything, it weakens it.
It actually does. It should be noted that the setting of the prelude
from BWV 1007 in C Major is not a new invention by Stanley Yates. It
was first so arranged and published in the Soviet Union in 1939 by
Vasilii Iuriev for the Russian seven-string guitar . That arrangement
was ripped off by Siegfried Behrend who published it, adjusted for
the standard guitar in the 1950s with Bote & Bock in Berlin. It is
still in print. Here, for your amusement and edification, is my own
version of the Iuriev transcription, to which I added a few bass notes
I am renting from Stanley Yates.
http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/rmcg/prel-1007.pdf
They're not rented, they're on an indefinate loan. But if you'd like to rent
them I'll gladly collect the monthly...
Well, one day, when, and if, there would be enough players of the
Russian seven-string guitar to justify a publication of a new edition
of the whole set for that instrument, we can negotiate something. How
about annually?

For the time being, I am giving the Prelude away for free, but people
ought to know where some of these notes came from. It just occured to
me that the reason Iuriev kept these bass notes on the higher octave,
must have been the fact that he was a LH thumb player, and could not
figure out how to finger the bass notes without interrupting the
flow...

BTW, I did a completely new arrangement of the Third Suite in G, all
the movements, working directly from the original cello, but still
have not put it into the computer. I just play it every so often for
my own amusement.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Stanley Yates
2007-05-26 18:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Well, one day, when, and if, there would be enough players of the
Russian seven-string guitar to justify a publication of a new edition
of the whole set for that instrument, we can negotiate something. How
about annually?
For the time being, I am giving the Prelude away for free, but people
ought to know where some of these notes came from. It just occured to
me that the reason Iuriev kept these bass notes on the higher octave,
must have been the fact that he was a LH thumb player, and could not
figure out how to finger the bass notes without interrupting the
flow...
BTW, I did a completely new arrangement of the Third Suite in G, all
the movements, working directly from the original cello, but still
have not put it into the computer. I just play it every so often for
my own amusement.
This stuff sounds great on the Russian 7-string. In time, I'll get
another...

SY
Matanya Ophee
2007-05-26 20:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
This stuff sounds great on the Russian 7-string. In time, I'll get
another...
In the interim, you might want to look at the Giannini 7 string
Sevilha model. It is exactly the same measurements as my Rompré, and
once you take off the cheap Brazilian strings and put on it a set of
Savarez for the Russian seven string guitar, it sounds fairly good.
The action was a bit too low for my taste, but a little shimmy under
the saddle fixed that. Not exactly a concert instrument, but one
cannot argue with the price. About $350.- with a gig bag. For a $100.-
more you get it with a hard case. Excellent entry level guitar, and
one that could be used by anyone who wonders about this whole Russian
guitar thing and not quite ready to invest in a high end guitar.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Tashi
2007-05-26 21:29:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Stanley Yates
This stuff sounds great on the Russian 7-string. In time, I'll get
another...
In the interim, you might want to look at the Giannini 7 string
Sevilha model. It is exactly the same measurements as my Rompré, and
once you take off the cheap Brazilian strings and put on it a set of
Savarez for the Russian seven string guitar, it sounds fairly good.
The action was a bit too low for my taste, but a little shimmy under
the saddle fixed that. Not exactly a concert instrument, but one
cannot argue with the price. About $350.- with a gig bag. For a $100.-
more you get it with a hard case. Excellent entry level guitar, and
one that could be used by anyone who wonders about this whole Russian
guitar thing and not quite ready to invest in a high end guitar.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794http://www.editionsorphee.comhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Is this guitar tuned in thirds?
MT
Matanya Ophee
2007-05-26 21:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Stanley Yates
This stuff sounds great on the Russian 7-string. In time, I'll get
another...
In the interim, you might want to look at the Giannini 7 string
Sevilha model. It is exactly the same measurements as my Rompré, and
once you take off the cheap Brazilian strings and put on it a set of
Savarez for the Russian seven string guitar, it sounds fairly good.
The action was a bit too low for my taste, but a little shimmy under
the saddle fixed that. Not exactly a concert instrument, but one
cannot argue with the price. About $350.- with a gig bag. For a $100.-
more you get it with a hard case. Excellent entry level guitar, and
one that could be used by anyone who wonders about this whole Russian
guitar thing and not quite ready to invest in a high end guitar.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794http://www.editionsorphee.comhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Is this guitar tuned in thirds?
When it comes from the dealer it is tuned in fourths, like standard
tuning plus a low B. After I replaced the strings with my own Savarez
set, it is tuned in thirds.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Carlos Barrientos
2007-05-26 21:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Matanya Ophee
Well, one day, when, and if, there would be enough players of the
Russian seven-string guitar to justify a publication of a new edition
of the whole set for that instrument, we can negotiate something. How
about annually?
For the time being, I am giving the Prelude away for free, but people
ought to know where some of these notes came from. It just occured to
me that the reason Iuriev kept these bass notes on the higher octave,
must have been the fact that he was a LH thumb player, and could not
figure out how to finger the bass notes without interrupting the
flow...
BTW, I did a completely new arrangement of the Third Suite in G, all
the movements, working directly from the original cello, but still
have not put it into the computer. I just play it every so often for
my own amusement.
This stuff sounds great on the Russian 7-string. In time, I'll get
another...
SY
Maestro Yates:

Long ongoing joke with Matanya:

"And while you're at it, try "Brown Sugar" or many of the Rolling Stones
top hits! Why, to truly be in Keith Richard land you may dispense with
the sixth string altogether! There be MILLION$ in this tuning!"

(;-)

Later,

Carlos

Bach Minuet B section?

(;-)


Carlos
Stanley Yates
2007-05-27 01:34:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
"And while you're at it, try "Brown Sugar" or many of the Rolling Stones
top hits! Why, to truly be in Keith Richard land you may dispense with the
sixth string altogether! There be MILLION$ in this tuning!"
It wuld probably also work quite well for the rasin Song by Led Zeppelin..
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Bach Minuet B section?
Soon - I've spent the most part of this week repairing, pressure washing and
re-painting the hopelessly impractical yet very attractive wooden fence that
encapsulates the two acres that comprise my one-hundred year old living
quarters.

SY
Carlos Barrientos
2007-05-27 15:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Carlos Barrientos
"And while you're at it, try "Brown Sugar" or many of the Rolling Stones
top hits! Why, to truly be in Keith Richard land you may dispense with the
sixth string altogether! There be MILLION$ in this tuning!"
It wuld probably also work quite well for the rasin Song by Led Zeppelin..
Here's a few in G tuning:

In My Time of Dyin' (Led Zeppelin) DGDGBd (open G)
Start Me Up (Rolling Stones) DGDGBd
Honky Tonk Women (Rolling Stones) xGDGBd
Brown Sugar (Rolling Stones) DGDGBd
Can't You Hear Me Knockin' (Rolling Stones) DGDGBd
Spanish Flangdang (Elizabeth Cotton) DGDGBd
Walking Blues (R.Johnson, see EC "Unplugged") DGDGBd
Rolling and tumbling (Clapton) "
Running on faith (Clapton) "
Motherless Child (Clapton "From the cradle") "
Bad to the Bone "
All Down the Line (Stones) "
Can't You Hear Me knockin' (Stones) "
Tumblin' Dice (Stones) "
Sweet Virginia (Stones) "
Easy to Slip (Little Feat) "
Jesus Just Left Chicago (ZZ Top) "
Squeezebox (the Who) "
Fearless (Pink Floyd) "
Love At The Five And Dime (Nanci Griffith) " capo 3
The Circle Game (Joni Mitchell) "
Little Green (Joni Mitchell) "
Marcie (Joni Mitchell) "
When the Levee Breaks and In My Time of Dying, Black country woman by
led zeppelin are both in open G if you like Led Zep. (WTLB is in open F
and IMTOD is in open A, but it's the same tuning up or down a whole step)

Some slight alteration is required for Rain Song: Gsus4 (D-G-C-G-C-D)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rain_Song

Enjoy!

(BTW, if you are a Led Zep fan, catch my UNO University Choir stand
mate, Randy Jackson from Zebra, in concert with orchestra; we lived
walking distance from each other in college and learned a lot about
guitar together in those green and salad days of our misspent youths!
He's great!

http://www.themusicofledzeppelin.com/tour.html

Whooddathunk?

(;-)
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Bach Minuet B section?
Soon - I've spent the most part of this week repairing, pressure washing and
re-painting the hopelessly impractical yet very attractive wooden fence that
encapsulates the two acres that comprise my one-hundred year old living
quarters.
SY
Patiently waiting...

Now then, when I become a world famous composer guitarist, perhaps then
I can indulge in a Seven String guitar and join into the Russian Guitar
fray. (;-)

My brother, Jose, a tenor, RIP, worked for Allegro Music in Miami and
was one of the first guys who began importing Russian Music to the
United States after the initial thaws of the cold war, something he was
devoted to and felt an unusual kinship with that music, and had some
recordings particularly of the operatic variety that were pretty hard to
find. I began to listen to Russian music through his influence.

So much to do, such little time, so much desire, huh?

Be well and Thanx!

C
Matanya Ophee
2007-05-27 17:45:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Now then, when I become a world famous composer guitarist, perhaps then
I can indulge in a Seven String guitar and join into the Russian Guitar
fray. (;-)
In the meantime, you might try your inspiration on simple six-string G
open tuning. Obviously, you know the genre already. Such pieces are
perfectly playable on the Russian seven-string guitar with only minor
alterations in the bass line. Angelo Gilardino's Ikonostas (dedicated
to Stanley Yates) is one such piece. The tuning of course dictates it
own modalities, but that does not necessarily have to sound Russian.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/

Stanley Yates
2007-05-26 03:30:55 UTC
Permalink
I'll leave it at this: I didn't choose C-major simply to be different
(though what's the point of merely reproducing what has gone before?) - it
was for a variety of reasons, not least of which was the affect. But the
actual key one plays these things in is surely far less important than
realizing them with stylistically acceptable bass additions and all of this
is secondary to the way ni which this or that performer actually plays them.

By the way, none of the numerous (almost embarassingly hyperbiloc)
multi-national reviews of my edition and recording questioned my choice of
keys (and neither did the several performers who have recorded my Bach
realizations). Still, it's a matter of personal taste - if you don't like
the first suite in C, that's your opinion and I have no problem with that.
But please do not suggest my decision to adopt this or that key was simply
an attempt to be different.

I'm glad your student is making good use of my Albeniz arrangement.

SY
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Stanley Yates
Just about all of Bach's unaccompanied string preludes (and
some other movements) utilize (what's known as) "bariolage"
passages, it's not just a feature of the first suite prelude. Some
of the best-known, standard warhorse items of the "Bach-guitar"
repertoire reproduce bariolage without using open strings. For
example, both the chaconne and the 4th "lute suite" prelude are
routinely performed on the guitar with a third string-second fret (A)
extended bariolage pedal tone (and the consequently well-known
stretches in the left-hand . (In my b-mi arrangement of the chaconne,
this pitch happens to be an open third string F#; and in my e-mi
arrangement it happens to be an open second-strign B.) There are
many factors to balance in picking keys, beyond simple traditition,
and the open string bariolage is merely one of them.
None of this supports your decision to arrange BWV 1007 in C Major. If
anything, it weakens it. For example, few would suggest recasting into
another key the guitar transcription of the BWV 1006a Prelude, for the
obvious reason that no other key so well serves the bariolage texture
throughout the piece. The one stretch you're referring to doesn't
change the fact that, overall, the piece sits well in E Major.
Post by Stanley Yates
It might not be common for many to perform complete cycles, or 3
or 4 suites at a time, but it is quite common for me. Also, when one
records a cycle, the key issue comes into play.
First, I doubt that you give many performances of all six cello suites
in one concert. Second, playing BWV 1007 in D Major would mean that
two of the six suites would be in the same key. That's not much of a
hardship for your audience. Indeed, I've attended recitals in which
all four lute suites were performed: two in A Minor, one in E Minor,
and one in E Major. No one bolted for the exits complaining about the
repeated keys. Finally, if repeating D major one time across six
suites is really so bothersome, then use a capo on one of the D Major
suites. The fact that you used a capo on your Bach recording makes
your argument against transcribing two suites in D Major all the more
questionable.
A general observation. You objected when I suggested that doing BWV
1007 in C Major is being different for the sake of being different. (I
might add that I was responding to the C Major transcription posted by
Richard Yates.) Your objection is a fair one and duly noted. But
consider that, during this thread, you've repeatedly invoked tradition
as a reason so many guitarists play BWV 1007 in D Major. To imply that
we're genuflecting toward the altar of tradition seems a bit unfair. A
better explanation is simple practicality, one that in other cases you
recognize no less than the rest of us. In your transcription of
Asturias, for example, you very sensibly did it in E Minor. You did
this not out of subservience to tradition, but because Asturias sits
well on the guitar in this key. Those of us who play BWV 1007 in D
Major do so for the same reason.
By the way, one of my students is working on your Asturias
transcription. I appreciate that you've made it available on your web
site.
Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-24 15:08:49 UTC
Permalink
In essence, Stanley, you're saying Bach never repeated keys in a cycle
of pieces, except when he did, and those don't count. But I'll grant
you this point. Clearly, Bach intended that no major or minor key was
to be repeated in the cello suites.

But one might ask why you preserved this intention of Bach's, but not
others. Bach wrote the BWV 1007 Prelude to exploit the open strings of
the cello. In mm. 31-36, the pedal A falls on an open string. Clearly
this was intentional--it frees the left hand to sing the melody
against the open string pedal. In D Major on the guitar, this effect
is preserved. In the C Major version that Richard Yates posted, this
effect is entirely lost. In your C Major version, you preserve the
open string by placing the pedal on the open fourth string. But this
drops the pedal an octave, a different sound from Bach's original, and
something that's easily avoided in D Major. While one might disagree
with the Ponce, Duarte, and other arrangements in D Major, one can't
deny that they better preserve Bach's original intent compared to your
arrangement in C Major.

We might frame the question of key choice thus: is it more important
to preserve the variety of keys across all six suites, or is it more
important to preserve the musical effect within each individual piece?
For me at least, the answer is suggested by the following. Preserving
key variety is an issue only when all six suites are performed in one
sitting. Preserving the musical effect within each piece is an issue
every time the piece is performed. We're comparing an issue that comes
up rarely to an issue that comes up always. So in this case I would
opt for preserving the musical effect of the individual piece.

By the way, it's fashionable nowadays to dismiss Ponce's arrangement
as hopelessly inauthentic. But Bach himself freely arranged other
composers' music in a way that had little to do with the original
composer's taste. In this light, maybe Ponce was more historically
correct than is commonly thought.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
a***@yahoo.com
2007-05-24 15:14:22 UTC
Permalink
In essence, Stanley, you're saying Bach never repeated keys in a cycle
of pieces, except when he did, and those don't count. But I'll grant
you this point. Clearly, Bach intended that no major or minor key was
to be repeated in the cello suites.

But one might ask why you preserved this intention of Bach's, but not
others. Bach wrote the BWV 1007 Prelude to exploit the open strings of
the cello. In mm. 31-36, the pedal A falls on an open string. Clearly
this was intentional--it frees the left hand to sing the melody
against the open string pedal. In D Major on the guitar, this effect
is preserved. In the C Major guitar version that Richard Yates posted,
this effect is entirely lost. In your C Major version, you preserve
the open string by placing the pedal on the open fourth string. But
this drops the pedal an octave, a different sound from Bach's
original, and something that's easily avoided in D Major.

We might frame the question of key choice thus: is it more important
to preserve the variety of keys across all six suites, or is it more
important to preserve the musical effect within each individual piece?
For me at least, the answer is suggested by the following. Preserving
key variety is an issue only when all six suites are performed in one
sitting. Preserving the musical effect within each piece is an issue
every time the piece is performed. We're comparing an issue that comes
up rarely to an issue that comes up always. So in this case I would
opt for preserving the musical effect of the individual piece.

By the way, it's fashionable nowadays to dismiss Manuel Ponce's
arrangement as hopelessly inauthentic. But Bach himself freely
arranged other composers' music in a way that had little to do with
the original composer's taste. In this light, maybe Ponce was more
historically correct than is commonly thought.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Tashi
2007-05-24 15:45:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sacold
Which arrangement is better? Stanley Yates in C or John Duarte in D?
Most guitarists seem to play arrangements in D, similar to the Duarte which
was use by John Williams for his recording way back in the mists of time.
Looking at the Yates arrangement it seems to be more simpathetic to the
guitar and on first impressions it seems to be somewhat easier, but first
impressions are often wrong.
What do you suggest?
Of all the cello suites why is it only the 1st one that gets all the
attention? Personally I think the 6th is by far the most beautifull
of them all. Is it too hard to play for most people?
MT
Larry Deack
2007-05-24 16:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Of all the cello suites why is it only the 1st one that gets all the
attention? Personally I think the 6th is by far the most beautifull
of them all. Is it too hard to play for most people?
Some pieces become gateway pieces for the pernicious drug... J.S.
Bach. You can see young kids trading TABs of these little bon bons
anywhere the little finger pickers gather. The preludes are a tasty way
to get hooked on eating the big suites.

It's TERRIBLE! :-0
GuitarsWeB
2007-05-24 19:27:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Tashi
Of all the cello suites why is it only the 1st one that gets all the
attention? Personally I think the 6th is by far the most beautifull
of them all. Is it too hard to play for most people?
Some pieces become gateway pieces for the pernicious drug... J.S.
Bach. You can see young kids trading TABs of these little bon bons
anywhere the little finger pickers gather. The preludes are a tasty way
to get hooked on eating the big suites.
It's TERRIBLE! :-0
Very well said Larry. I tabbed this piece out back in 1972 for a
flamenco player. It was actually what we call cifra.
Paul McGuffin
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