Discussion:
Improve your sight reading
(too old to reply)
Jackson K. Eskew
2007-03-23 00:59:45 UTC
Permalink
I've just finished these books:

http://tinyurl.com/2rljeh

&

http://tinyurl.com/2tjdod

Don't expect miracles, but they'll set you on your way.

By the way, to those who are excellent sight readers, do you even
bother trying to memorizing pieces anymore? Feel free to talk about
all facets of sight reading, and to give any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
h***@verizon.net
2007-03-23 01:20:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
http://tinyurl.com/2rljeh
&
http://tinyurl.com/2tjdod
Don't expect miracles, but they'll set you on your way.
By the way, to those who are excellent sight readers, do you even
bother trying to memorizing pieces anymore? Feel free to talk about
all facets of sight reading, and to give any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
I am a good to excellent sight reader and I have always been
comfortable memorizing as well, and I still do both as needed.

I feel that sight reading in a group context is a vital way to learn
to do it properly. My training in non-guitar instruments was critical
in establishing the ideas of continuity and looking ahead, as well as
learning to feel the beat while playing notes at sight.

In the end it's "milieage". How many miles of staff you have put your
eyes and hands through.

Seth
Jackson K. Eskew
2007-03-23 01:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
http://tinyurl.com/2rljeh
&
http://tinyurl.com/2tjdod
Don't expect miracles, but they'll set you on your way.
By the way, to those who are excellent sight readers, do you even
bother trying to memorizing pieces anymore? Feel free to talk about
all facets of sight reading, and to give any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
I am a good to excellent sight reader and I have always been
comfortable memorizing as well, and I still do both as needed.
I feel that sight reading in a group context is a vital way to learn
to do it properly. My training in non-guitar instruments was critical
in establishing the ideas of continuity and looking ahead, as well as
learning to feel the beat while playing notes at sight.
In the end it's "milieage". How many miles of staff you have put your
eyes and hands through.
Seth
At what age did you begin? Did it come easily to you or was it a
struggle, or a combo of the two - easily here, a struggle there and so
on? Do you find sight reading harder or easier on the guitar vs. those
other instruments?
h***@verizon.net
2007-03-23 02:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
At what age did you begin? Did it come easily to you or was it a
struggle, or a combo of the two - easily here, a struggle there and so
on? Do you find sight reading harder or easier on the guitar vs. those
other instruments?
Recorder at age 6, violin at age 7.

I think sight reading is easier on those instruments because there is
little or no chording on the violin and obviously no chording on the
recorder.

I found and still do find single note sight reading on the guitar very
easy and learned it easily, but reading chords, cotrapuntal textures
and upper positions to be a struggle that I am still involved in. My
latest challenges are the advanced books of Sagreras and the Complete
Solo Guitar Works of Paganini.

I enjoy reading quality stuff like that. I highly recommend using non
guitar material such as the Arban Trumpet Method. I have also used
much of my violin and recorder music as sightreading fodder.

Good on topic posting!

Seth
Jackson K. Eskew
2007-03-23 03:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Recorder at age 6, violin at age 7.
You were blessed. Parents never divorced?

I like Shearer's scale book for sight reading practice.
wollybird
2007-03-23 03:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Post by h***@verizon.net
Recorder at age 6, violin at age 7.
You were blessed. Parents never divorced?
I like Shearer's scale book for sight reading practice.
that't the drill my teacher gave me
Jez
2007-03-23 22:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
http://tinyurl.com/2rljeh
&
http://tinyurl.com/2tjdod
Don't expect miracles, but they'll set you on your way.
By the way, to those who are excellent sight readers, do you even
bother trying to memorizing pieces anymore? Feel free to talk about
all facets of sight reading, and to give any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
I am a good to excellent sight reader and I have always been
comfortable memorizing as well, and I still do both as needed.
I feel that sight reading in a group context is a vital way to learn
to do it properly. My training in non-guitar instruments was critical
in establishing the ideas of continuity and looking ahead, as well as
learning to feel the beat while playing notes at sight.
In the end it's "milieage". How many miles of staff you have put your
eyes and hands through.
Seth
I find my sight-reading makes me very lazy when it comes to memorizing
things.
I have to make quite an effort to actually remember anything.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.

"Culture and Ideology are not your friends. Culture is the greatest barrier
to your enlightenment, your education, and your decency." - Terence McKenna

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick
society."- Krishnamurti
Curmudgeon
2007-03-23 02:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
http://tinyurl.com/2rljeh
&
http://tinyurl.com/2tjdod
Don't expect miracles, but they'll set you on your way.
By the way, to those who are excellent sight readers, do you even
bother trying to memorizing pieces anymore? Feel free to talk about
all facets of sight reading, and to give any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
I swore to myself that I would never again participate in a JKE
thread, but lo and behold, here's one that's actually about music.

I have always been a good sight reader - it came easily to me when I
was young, and has always felt second nature. This is fortunate for me
since my stroke, because it is now exceedingly difficult for me to
memorize new music. I can remember stuff I learned 40 years ago, but
memorizing something new is nigh unto impossible. However, with the
music in front of me with fingerings added judiciously where helpful,
I get enough of a cue to get through things fairly well. Now, if my
hands only worked as well as they used to...
sycochkn
2007-03-23 02:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
http://tinyurl.com/2rljeh
&
http://tinyurl.com/2tjdod
Don't expect miracles, but they'll set you on your way.
By the way, to those who are excellent sight readers, do you even
bother trying to memorizing pieces anymore? Feel free to talk about
all facets of sight reading, and to give any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
Practice every day. At the moment I am taking simple single line
melodies and attempting to harmonize them with chords. That requires
me to transpose the melody up an octave and play the approriate triad
at sight in the most appropriate location on the fretboard. There are
usually two or three possibilities.

Bob
John E. Golden
2007-03-23 04:31:30 UTC
Permalink
el snipo
any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
Two words...'Julio Segreras.'

All six books.

Regards,
John E. Golden
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-23 06:45:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 22, 9:31 pm, "John E. Golden"
Post by John E. Golden
el snipo
any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
Two words...'Julio Segreras.'
All six books.
Regards,
John E. Golden
Jackson,

I think that learning jazz theory is the best way to learn the
fingerboard. Classicals guitarists may be able to site read pieces
and learn different fingering strategies, but they are not able to
quite get the gist of the theory behind it (thus trained monkeys and
the dictatorship of relativism). They often *know* the theory I'm not
saying they don't. But frankly, how many master classes have you been
to where the *master* says oh, use the 4 finger to modulate between
the A and B section. Or Bach intended the harmonies to progress such
and such a way that's why I prefer to play it in such and such a
position. Or...hang on the dominant a little here...Jazz theory
makes every note on the fretboard part of larger scheme or context.
It could be shapes or it could be (left brain) theoretical
underpinnings. Regardless, this makes for better musicians and a
better product.

David
wollybird
2007-03-23 11:28:20 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 22, 11:31 pm, "John E. Golden"
Post by John E. Golden
el snipo
any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
Two words...'Julio Segreras.'
All six books.
Regards,
John E. Golden
That, too. just 10 min a day
d***@yahoo.ca
2007-03-23 12:43:21 UTC
Permalink
For anyone interested in the scientific research on sight reading (I
know this does not include you JKE so spare me the proselytizing),
Kopiez, Lee, and colleagues are doing great research on individual
differences. An abstract is below. The association between SR ability
and ambidexterity is interesting and was apparently rigorous enough to
have held across more than one study - it would be interesting to know
if this is a keyboard-specific effect.

Kopiez, R., Weihs, C., Ligges, U. and Ji In Lee (2006): Classification
of high and low achievers in a music sight-reading task. Psychology of
Music 34 (1), 5-26.

The unrehearsed performance of music, called 'sight reading' (SR), is
a basic skill for all musicians. It is of particular interest for
musical occupations such as the piano accompanist, the conductor, or
the correpetiteur. However, up until now, there is no feasible theory
of SR which considers all relevant factors such as practice-related
variables (e.g. expertise), speed of information processing (e.g.
mental speed), or psycho-motor speed (e.g. speed of trills). Despite
the merits of expertise theory, there is no comprehensive model which
can classify subjects to high and low achievement groups. This study
is the first that tries to classify subjects. It is based on an
extensive experiment in which the total SR performance of 52 piano
students at a German music department was measured by use of a pacing
voice paradigm.
Additionally, subjects completed a set of 10 psychological tests, such
as tests for mental speed, reaction time, working memory, inner
hearing etc., which were found in former studies to be useful
predictors for SR achievement [...] Results can be summarized as
follows: (a) accumulated sight reading expertise is important, but not
the only predictor for sight reading performance and should be
acquired before the age of 15; (b) psychomotor speed (e.g. trilling
speed) and mental speed plays an important role and leads to the
hypothesis of the importance of processes controlled by the
subcortical system of the spinal chord; (c) the compensating function
of variables in complex interactions of classifying variables; (d)
evidence for the relevance of ambidexterity.
John LaCroix
2007-03-23 13:26:41 UTC
Permalink
I agree with what Seth said about 'mileage'. I (like everyone here)
have all the noad anthologies and other collections, and some days I
will just sit down with one and start going through pieces. If I
didn't do that, I would be stuck just reading either pieces I already
know (that are probably memorized) or pieces that I am currently
learning (which I have read through many times). So picking things out
of the blue every now and then and just plowing along helps me improve
my skills.

As for David's comment about Jazz theory - I suspect this is good
advice. I would like to be able to look through a score (without my
guitar in hand) and be able to get a deeper sense of the piece (aside
from the simple repeats, AB sections, etc.) and how it will map onto
the fingerboard. Learning a piece is so much more about the notes on
the page, its really like a battle strategy.

John L.
SleepyHead
2007-03-23 14:46:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by John LaCroix
I agree with what Seth said about 'mileage'. I (like everyone here)
have all the noad anthologies and other collections, and some days I
will just sit down with one and start going through pieces. If I
didn't do that, I would be stuck just reading either pieces I already
know (that are probably memorized) or pieces that I am currently
learning (which I have read through many times). So picking things out
of the blue every now and then and just plowing along helps me improve
my skills.
As for David's comment about Jazz theory - I suspect this is good
advice. I would like to be able to look through a score (without my
guitar in hand) and be able to get a deeper sense of the piece (aside
from the simple repeats, AB sections, etc.) and how it will map onto
the fingerboard. Learning a piece is so much more about the notes on
the page, its really like a battle strategy.
John L.
I used to think mileage was everything when it came to sight-reading -
I'd sight-read my way through anything and everything I could get my
hands on - and on the whole I can't I found this strategy over-useful
although I'm not saying it's completely without merit

The thing that's made most difference to me was putting the guitar
aside for a month or two and starting to work through Gauldin's book
on 18th C. counterpoint. I can't say I've become a sight-reading
master as a result - in that respect sight-reading is now just another
one of those things on the "needs more work" pile - but reading from
sight is much less of an effort than previously, e.g. dense chords are
easier to read and I tend to notice suble changes in chords more often
the first time round, melodic lines stand out more prominently,
overall structure of a piece is easier to grasp, I notice interplay
between parts more often than I did before.

So I guess what I'm saying in essence is that the musical equivalent
of "cross-training" can bring dividends as well as the more usual
method of ploughing through endless sight-reading exercises.
John LaCroix
2007-03-23 14:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by SleepyHead
Post by John LaCroix
I agree with what Seth said about 'mileage'. I (like everyone here)
have all the noad anthologies and other collections, and some days I
will just sit down with one and start going through pieces. If I
didn't do that, I would be stuck just reading either pieces I already
know (that are probably memorized) or pieces that I am currently
learning (which I have read through many times). So picking things out
of the blue every now and then and just plowing along helps me improve
my skills.
As for David's comment about Jazz theory - I suspect this is good
advice. I would like to be able to look through a score (without my
guitar in hand) and be able to get a deeper sense of the piece (aside
from the simple repeats, AB sections, etc.) and how it will map onto
the fingerboard. Learning a piece is so much more about the notes on
the page, its really like a battle strategy.
John L.
I used to think mileage was everything when it came to sight-reading -
I'd sight-read my way through anything and everything I could get my
hands on - and on the whole I can't I found this strategy over-useful
although I'm not saying it's completely without merit
The thing that's made most difference to me was putting the guitar
aside for a month or two and starting to work through Gauldin's book
on 18th C. counterpoint. I can't say I've become a sight-reading
master as a result - in that respect sight-reading is now just another
one of those things on the "needs more work" pile - but reading from
sight is much less of an effort than previously, e.g. dense chords are
easier to read and I tend to notice suble changes in chords more often
the first time round, melodic lines stand out more prominently,
overall structure of a piece is easier to grasp, I notice interplay
between parts more often than I did before.
So I guess what I'm saying in essence is that the musical equivalent
of "cross-training" can bring dividends as well as the more usual
method of ploughing through endless sight-reading exercises.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Cross training - very well put. Let me see if I can explain more of
what I mean by 'plowing through'. I tend to attack problems by pealing
them apart - the layers on the proverbial onion. When I encounter a
new piece, what I expect the 'plowing' to do for me is to
subconciously remove a layer of complexity so that I will more easily
be able to descern the subtle changes you describe (unless the piece
is really simple which in that case the 'plowing' takes care of it
entirely). It also frees up bandwidth for the musical interpretation
bits notated on the score. When I get more free time (Ha! yeah
right..) I have been considering studying composition as a vehicle for
pealing off another layer.

John L.
SleepyHead
2007-03-23 15:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by John LaCroix
Post by SleepyHead
Post by John LaCroix
I agree with what Seth said about 'mileage'. I (like everyone here)
have all the noad anthologies and other collections, and some days I
will just sit down with one and start going through pieces. If I
didn't do that, I would be stuck just reading either pieces I already
know (that are probably memorized) or pieces that I am currently
learning (which I have read through many times). So picking things out
of the blue every now and then and just plowing along helps me improve
my skills.
As for David's comment about Jazz theory - I suspect this is good
advice. I would like to be able to look through a score (without my
guitar in hand) and be able to get a deeper sense of the piece (aside
from the simple repeats, AB sections, etc.) and how it will map onto
the fingerboard. Learning a piece is so much more about the notes on
the page, its really like a battle strategy.
John L.
I used to think mileage was everything when it came to sight-reading -
I'd sight-read my way through anything and everything I could get my
hands on - and on the whole I can't I found this strategy over-useful
although I'm not saying it's completely without merit
The thing that's made most difference to me was putting the guitar
aside for a month or two and starting to work through Gauldin's book
on 18th C. counterpoint. I can't say I've become a sight-reading
master as a result - in that respect sight-reading is now just another
one of those things on the "needs more work" pile - but reading from
sight is much less of an effort than previously, e.g. dense chords are
easier to read and I tend to notice suble changes in chords more often
the first time round, melodic lines stand out more prominently,
overall structure of a piece is easier to grasp, I notice interplay
between parts more often than I did before.
So I guess what I'm saying in essence is that the musical equivalent
of "cross-training" can bring dividends as well as the more usual
method of ploughing through endless sight-reading exercises.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Cross training - very well put. Let me see if I can explain more of
what I mean by 'plowing through'. I tend to attack problems by pealing
them apart - the layers on the proverbial onion. When I encounter a
new piece, what I expect the 'plowing' to do for me is to
subconciously remove a layer of complexity so that I will more easily
be able to descern the subtle changes you describe (unless the piece
is really simple which in that case the 'plowing' takes care of it
entirely). It also frees up bandwidth for the musical interpretation
bits notated on the score. When I get more free time (Ha! yeah
right..) I have been considering studying composition as a vehicle for
pealing off another layer.
John L.
Sorry John - I didn't mean to imply you're mindlessly plodding through
your sight-reading!

I agree with the rest of what you're saying - each sight-reading piece
is different so what's difficult about piece #1 may not be the awkward
thing about piece #2 (especially so if you're reading your way through
something like the Villa-Lobos études where each piece is 'about' a
different technique).

Sometimes one has to separate bass from treble (e.g. Bellinati's
"Emboscada", some sections of Dyens' "Fu-bloody-oco" [sic]), sometimes
it's just the chords that are tricky (e.g. Villa-Lobos étude #' -
bollocks can't remember which one I'm thinking of), sometimes finding
the right place to play a melody is the difficulty (some of Garcia's
études Esquisses), sometimes the music's just very difficult to read
(e.g. endless time signature / key changes - Dyens' "India"),
sometimes the music's not only tricky to read but awkward to play
("India" again) sometimes it's something that looks innocuous but
which is in fact flippin' awkward to bring off convincingly (e.g.
opening descending accelerando to Tarréga's "Capricho Arabe").

You can set yourself different goals with sight-reading too -
sometimes I pick easier pieces and practice playing them
"beautifully"; sometimes I pick the hardest thing I can find just to
see how hard it is.
John LaCroix
2007-03-23 15:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by SleepyHead
Post by SleepyHead
Sorry John - I didn't mean to imply you're mindlessly plodding through
your sight-reading!
Thats okay, no offense taken. Sometimes it is mindless plodding, not
every day can be a quality day. Just as I strive to eat healthy well
balance meals but occasionally wind up with a bag of fried pork rinds.

Last night I heard a presentation from a top level (in VT anyway)
marathoner who spoke of training in terms of quality miles. She sought
to distinguish between starting out on a training run with a definite
plan and goals, vs. just going out to do it and get it over. I
couldn't help but see the parallels between her talking points and our
discussions here about practicing - and now sight reading.

John L.
SleepyHead
2007-03-23 15:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by John LaCroix
Post by SleepyHead
Post by SleepyHead
Sorry John - I didn't mean to imply you're mindlessly plodding through
your sight-reading!
Thats okay, no offense taken. Sometimes it is mindless plodding, not
every day can be a quality day. Just as I strive to eat healthy well
balance meals but occasionally wind up with a bag of fried pork rinds.
Oooh now you're talking! I might have to get myself a bag of those to
go with the beers I've got a-waitin' in the fridge for tonight.
Post by John LaCroix
Last night I heard a presentation from a top level (in VT anyway)
marathoner who spoke of training in terms of quality miles. She sought
to distinguish between starting out on a training run with a definite
plan and goals, vs. just going out to do it and get it over. I
couldn't help but see the parallels between her talking points and our
discussions here about practicing - and now sight reading.
I couldn't agree more - having an objective is paramount if you're
actually going to achieve anything other than plodding when you
practice / sight-read / compose - but (as you also said) sometimes
there are days when one isn't up to anything other than a spot of
plodding. I think the trick is not to beat yourself up too much when
you're having a plod-day or else you can make the "whole thing" seem
more like hard work and less like fun.
Jez
2007-03-23 22:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by SleepyHead
Post by John LaCroix
I agree with what Seth said about 'mileage'. I (like everyone here)
have all the noad anthologies and other collections, and some days I
will just sit down with one and start going through pieces. If I
didn't do that, I would be stuck just reading either pieces I already
know (that are probably memorized) or pieces that I am currently
learning (which I have read through many times). So picking things out
of the blue every now and then and just plowing along helps me improve
my skills.
As for David's comment about Jazz theory - I suspect this is good
advice. I would like to be able to look through a score (without my
guitar in hand) and be able to get a deeper sense of the piece (aside
from the simple repeats, AB sections, etc.) and how it will map onto
the fingerboard. Learning a piece is so much more about the notes on
the page, its really like a battle strategy.
John L.
I used to think mileage was everything when it came to sight-reading -
I'd sight-read my way through anything and everything I could get my
hands on - and on the whole I can't I found this strategy over-useful
although I'm not saying it's completely without merit
The thing that's made most difference to me was putting the guitar
aside for a month or two and starting to work through Gauldin's book
on 18th C. counterpoint. I can't say I've become a sight-reading
master as a result - in that respect sight-reading is now just another
one of those things on the "needs more work" pile - but reading from
sight is much less of an effort than previously, e.g. dense chords are
easier to read and I tend to notice suble changes in chords more often
the first time round, melodic lines stand out more prominently,
overall structure of a piece is easier to grasp, I notice interplay
between parts more often than I did before.
So I guess what I'm saying in essence is that the musical equivalent
of "cross-training" can bring dividends as well as the more usual
method of ploughing through endless sight-reading exercises.
I found that sight-reading piano music made sight reading guitar music seem
quite simple.
It's just a knack I seem to have...never made much of an effort at it, I
just kinda did it.
Dunno how young I was when I started, just always have.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.

"Culture and Ideology are not your friends. Culture is the greatest barrier
to your enlightenment, your education, and your decency." - Terence McKenna

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick
society."- Krishnamurti
SleepyHead
2007-03-26 15:06:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by SleepyHead
Post by John LaCroix
I agree with what Seth said about 'mileage'. I (like everyone here)
have all the noad anthologies and other collections, and some days I
will just sit down with one and start going through pieces. If I
didn't do that, I would be stuck just reading either pieces I already
know (that are probably memorized) or pieces that I am currently
learning (which I have read through many times). So picking things out
of the blue every now and then and just plowing along helps me improve
my skills.
As for David's comment about Jazz theory - I suspect this is good
advice. I would like to be able to look through a score (without my
guitar in hand) and be able to get a deeper sense of the piece (aside
from the simple repeats, AB sections, etc.) and how it will map onto
the fingerboard. Learning a piece is so much more about the notes on
the page, its really like a battle strategy.
John L.
I used to think mileage was everything when it came to sight-reading -
I'd sight-read my way through anything and everything I could get my
hands on - and on the whole I can't I found this strategy over-useful
although I'm not saying it's completely without merit
The thing that's made most difference to me was putting the guitar
aside for a month or two and starting to work through Gauldin's book
on 18th C. counterpoint. I can't say I've become a sight-reading
master as a result - in that respect sight-reading is now just another
one of those things on the "needs more work" pile - but reading from
sight is much less of an effort than previously, e.g. dense chords are
easier to read and I tend to notice suble changes in chords more often
the first time round, melodic lines stand out more prominently,
overall structure of a piece is easier to grasp, I notice interplay
between parts more often than I did before.
So I guess what I'm saying in essence is that the musical equivalent
of "cross-training" can bring dividends as well as the more usual
method of ploughing through endless sight-reading exercises.
I found that sight-reading piano music made sight reading guitar music seem quite simple. It's just a knack I seem to have...never made much of an effort at it, I just kinda did it. Dunno how young I was when I started, just always have.
Yeah I've found more-or-less the same thing myself. I think it's
partly that there tend to be many more notes per bar on piano music
than there are in guitar music. Plus there's that extra clef to bother
over. And piano music sometimes ventures past 4 sharps. And often has
more than 2 melodic lines going at once.

I guess organ music and orchestral scores would be the next step up
from there.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
"Culture and Ideology are not your friends. Culture is the greatest barrier to your enlightenment, your education, and your decency." - Terence McKenna
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."- Krishnamurti
Raptor
2007-03-23 13:51:50 UTC
Permalink
In addition to what's been written above, some people "hear" music
just by reading the notes on a page. They actually "know" what the
piece sounds like before they play a note, even if they've never heard
it. My mother - a pianist - has this ability; I don't, though I've
been playing music from notation for decades. With anything beyond a
simple melodic line, I generally don't have a clue what a new piece
will sound like until I start to play it.

After practice, study, familiarity with the repertoire/genre, e.g.
baroque counterpoint patterns, etc., I believe this ability to "hear"
what's written contributes greatly to how quickly a person can sight-
read. This really neat ability allows those players to translate
notation (maybe tablature too?) into playing mechanics, without having
to intellectually process the "aural" expectation.

Mark
aka Raptor
JMF
2007-03-23 14:34:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
In addition to what's been written above, some people "hear" music
just by reading the notes on a page. They actually "know" what the
piece sounds like before they play a note, even if they've never heard
it. My mother - a pianist - has this ability; I don't, though I've
been playing music from notation for decades. With anything beyond a
simple melodic line, I generally don't have a clue what a new piece
will sound like until I start to play it.
After practice, study, familiarity with the repertoire/genre, e.g.
baroque counterpoint patterns, etc., I believe this ability to "hear"
what's written contributes greatly to how quickly a person can sight-
read. This really neat ability allows those players to translate
notation (maybe tablature too?) into playing mechanics, without having
to intellectually process the "aural" expectation.
Mark
aka Raptor
My mother's piano teacher, who was a jazz musician, once told her a story
about walking up to a younger colleague who was sitting on the steps with a
music score in his hands. He was smiling and bouncing his head up and down
and swaying around, and when he saw the teacher come up beside him he turned
and exclaimed "Just listen to this!"

John
d***@yahoo.ca
2007-03-23 14:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMF
Post by Raptor
In addition to what's been written above, some people "hear" music
just by reading the notes on a page. They actually "know" what the
piece sounds like before they play a note, even if they've never heard
it. My mother - a pianist - has this ability; I don't, though I've
been playing music from notation for decades. With anything beyond a
simple melodic line, I generally don't have a clue what a new piece
will sound like until I start to play it.
After practice, study, familiarity with the repertoire/genre, e.g.
baroque counterpoint patterns, etc., I believe this ability to "hear"
what's written contributes greatly to how quickly a person can sight-
read. This really neat ability allows those players to translate
notation (maybe tablature too?) into playing mechanics, without having
to intellectually process the "aural" expectation.
Mark
aka Raptor
My mother's piano teacher, who was a jazz musician, once told her a story
about walking up to a younger colleague who was sitting on the steps with a
music score in his hands. He was smiling and bouncing his head up and down
and swaying around, and when he saw the teacher come up beside him he turned
and exclaimed "Just listen to this!"
John
This is what Kopiez et al refer to as "inner hearing" in the abstract
above. They identify it as a "practice-related" skill as opposed to
"general cognitive' and 'elementary cognitive' skills. Interestingly,
it was not a factor in either their 2 or 3 class classification
solutions, suggesting it is not a factor in exceptional SR ability.
Here is how they tested it:

"measurement of inner hearing was made according to the
'embedded melody paradigm' proposed by Brodsky (2003). Subjects were
given 45 seconds to look at the variation of each theme. In the next
step, the original theme, or the 'lure melody', was heard through the
speakers and could be repeated. Subjects had to decide if the melody
heard was embedded into the variation seen in the score
(same-different paradigm)."
Louie LaRue
2007-03-24 02:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
http://tinyurl.com/2rljeh
&
http://tinyurl.com/2tjdod
Don't expect miracles, but they'll set you on your way.
By the way, to those who are excellent sight readers, do you even
bother trying to memorizing pieces anymore? Feel free to talk about
all facets of sight reading, and to give any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
I have made a concerted effort to improve my sight reading this year.
I guess it's a midlife crisis - just turned 50.
This is what I have been doing:

Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.

Single String Studies: Three strings a day from Single String Studies
Vol. 1 by Bruce Arnold.

Rhythms: 10 minutes a day from contemporary Rhythms by Bruce Arnold.

Sightreading Music: 30 minutes a day from a flute book - forgot the
name.

Reading isn't natural for me - LOTS OF HARD WORK!
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-24 18:39:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louie LaRue
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
http://tinyurl.com/2rljeh
&
http://tinyurl.com/2tjdod
Don't expect miracles, but they'll set you on your way.
By the way, to those who are excellent sight readers, do you even
bother trying to memorizing pieces anymore? Feel free to talk about
all facets of sight reading, and to give any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
I have made a concerted effort to improve my sight reading this year.
I guess it's a midlife crisis - just turned 50.
Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.
Single String Studies: Three strings a day from Single String Studies
Vol. 1 by Bruce Arnold.
Rhythms: 10 minutes a day from contemporary Rhythms by Bruce Arnold.
Sightreading Music: 30 minutes a day from a flute book - forgot the
name.
Reading isn't natural for me - LOTS OF HARD WORK!
When I first started reading I had many dyslexic episodes where I
would invert the staves. It took me a LOT of hardwork to overcome
this. I agree that good site reading can to lead to laziness when it
comes to memorizing. It's easier if you think of them as two separate
disciplines. Every night before a concert lay down and play the
conert in your head from beginning to end. Try to see the actual
dots. If you can't then you have a need to be nervous. When you wake
up, go over the specific areas that tripped you up, and I think you'll
see that you know the pieces pretty well.

David
Larry Deack
2007-03-24 18:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Try to see the actual dots.
If you can't then you have a need to be nervous.
This is not true for everybody. For example, Bill Kanengiser says he
does not see the dots but relies on aural and kinesthetic memory. I've
heard him play many times with virtually no memory slips. He is not the
exception to your rule but there are others who do "see the dots" so
what we must remember if we teach is that what works for us does not
necessarily work for others with different learning styles.
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-24 18:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Try to see the actual dots.
If you can't then you have a need to be nervous.
This is not true for everybody. For example, Bill Kanengiser says he
does not see the dots but relies on aural and kinesthetic memory. I've
heard him play many times with virtually no memory slips. He is not the
exception to your rule but there are others who do "see the dots" so
what we must remember if we teach is that what works for us does not
necessarily work for others with different learning styles.
True Larry, notice i said *try to see the dots*. Or maybe for someone
like him, have him picture himself seeing himself play the entire
concert from beginning to end, sort of like an out of body
experience. The point is that although there may be lots of visual
cues we really on (dots on the neck..an mp in the score.. maybe *use
the a finger at this point to make such and such a sound*) one has to
bring it all together in memorization. Many perfectionists have
difficulty with the idea of finally finishing a piece. So the
performance becomes what sherer calls a developmental performance,
rather than an end intself for them.

David
Raptor
2007-03-24 18:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Louie LaRue
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
http://tinyurl.com/2rljeh
&
http://tinyurl.com/2tjdod
Don't expect miracles, but they'll set you on your way.
By the way, to those who are excellent sight readers, do you even
bother trying to memorizing pieces anymore? Feel free to talk about
all facets of sight reading, and to give any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
I have made a concerted effort to improve my sight reading this year.
I guess it's a midlife crisis - just turned 50.
Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.
Single String Studies: Three strings a day from Single String Studies
Vol. 1 by Bruce Arnold.
Rhythms: 10 minutes a day from contemporary Rhythms by Bruce Arnold.
Sightreading Music: 30 minutes a day from a flute book - forgot the
name.
Reading isn't natural for me - LOTS OF HARD WORK!
When I first started reading I had many dyslexic episodes where I
would invert the staves. It took me a LOT of hardwork to overcome
this. I agree that good site reading can to lead to laziness when it
comes to memorizing. It's easier if you think of them as two separate
disciplines. Every night before a concert lay down and play the
conert in your head from beginning to end. Try to see the actual
dots. If you can't then you have a need to be nervous. When you wake
up, go over the specific areas that tripped you up, and I think you'll
see that you know the pieces pretty well.
David- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
You can do this? The longest piece of music I've ever committed to
memory was in my very late 20s - Bach's "Goldberg Variations." Even
when I could play it repeatedly without error, I could not have
written it all out straight from memory; I'd have had to visualize the
fingering and reverse it into notation. Everybody's different.

Mark
Raptor
2007-03-24 18:54:52 UTC
Permalink
"Bill Kanengiser says he does not see the dots but relies on aural and
kinesthetic memory."

That's what I was trying to say, but failed to write nearly as well.

Mark
Larry Deack
2007-03-24 19:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
You can do this? The longest piece of music I've ever committed to
memory was in my very late 20s - Bach's "Goldberg Variations."
I have a friend who played it on piano for me and another friend last
year... no repeats. I have piano scores and guitar transcriptions but I
never really could play much of it on guitar. The aria works OK and a
few variations too. My friend has a harpsichord but I have not heard it
live on harpsichord.

He, my wife and I sat in a theater in Orange County by ourselves for
the 32 shorts movie. We had both read the same Gould biography and
studied the score. What an amazing piece! The architecture is so grand
from such seemingly simple roots. You did that at 20? That's impressive.
I think I was still playing guitar mostly by ear when I was 20 and the
most I could manage of Bach was a simple version of Jesu.
Post by Raptor
Even when I could play it repeatedly without error,
Wow, without error? That's a lot of very difficult music to play
without error. Almost every concert I've heard has some errors. Brain
farts are a different thing.
Post by Raptor
I could not have written it all out
straight from memory; I'd have had to visualize the
fingering and reverse it into notation. Everybody's different.
Indeed. This goes to the heart of good teaching. When a student
finds their own solution that I don't quite understand I often pass it
on to another student who is having the same problem and it often works.
Learning to get out of my student's way is difficult and very much a
learning process for me.
Raptor
2007-03-24 20:04:31 UTC
Permalink
" I have a friend who played it on piano for me and another friend
last year... no repeats. I have piano scores and guitar transcriptions
but I never really could play much of it on guitar."

I didn't learn it on the guitar! I'm a very late-comer to the guitar
party. (At 50, almost a silly effort, really, but I'm enjoying it
anyway.) I learned it as Bach wrote it - for the harpsichord - and
it's more or less all I worked on for about 2 1/2 years.

There is one interesting recording of it for guitar done by Kurt
Rodarmer (Sony SK 60257). He had Richard Schneider build two new
guitars, designed by Dr. Micahel Kasha. Using these, along with two
others, he made separate track recordings before merging them
together. I have to say it must have been an enormous amount of work.

Mark
Larry Deack
2007-03-24 20:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
" I have a friend who played it on piano for me and another friend
last year... no repeats. I have piano scores and guitar transcriptions
but I never really could play much of it on guitar."
I didn't learn it on the guitar! I'm a very late-comer to the guitar
party. (At 50, almost a silly effort, really, but I'm enjoying it
anyway.) I learned it as Bach wrote it - for the harpsichord - and
it's more or less all I worked on for about 2 1/2 years.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I assumed you played it on harpsichord. You
have said you are late to CG before.

My friend has worked on it for a while but studied it longer. He's a
fantastic piano teacher with a very successful studio. His name is Mark
also.

http://www.adamant.org/faculty.htm#Sullivan
Post by Raptor
There is one interesting recording of it for guitar done by Kurt
Rodarmer (Sony SK 60257). He had Richard Schneider build two new
guitars, designed by Dr. Micahel Kasha. Using these, along with two
others, he made separate track recordings before merging them
together. I have to say it must have been an enormous amount of work.
Mark
After exploring it on guitar and talking with other guitarist who
have done it on guitar I just was not very happy with the results. I
also took one lesson with Mark but I was not properly prepared mostly
because I had lost enthusiasm since nothing seemed to work well. It
works well on piano but I'd like to hear it live on harpsichord.

It's just such a fine piece of music that I felt I wanted to get
closer to it. Mark's performance in his home has stuck in my brain as
one of those times in my life when music resonated with magic.
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-24 21:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Raptor
" I have a friend who played it on piano for me and another friend
last year... no repeats. I have piano scores and guitar transcriptions
but I never really could play much of it on guitar."
I didn't learn it on the guitar! I'm a very late-comer to the guitar
party. (At 50, almost a silly effort, really, but I'm enjoying it
anyway.) I learned it as Bach wrote it - for the harpsichord - and
it's more or less all I worked on for about 2 1/2 years.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I assumed you played it on harpsichord. You
have said you are late to CG before.
My friend has worked on it for a while but studied it longer. He's a
fantastic piano teacher with a very successful studio. His name is Mark
also.
http://www.adamant.org/faculty.htm#Sullivan
Post by Raptor
There is one interesting recording of it for guitar done by Kurt
Rodarmer (Sony SK 60257). He had Richard Schneider build two new
guitars, designed by Dr. Micahel Kasha. Using these, along with two
others, he made separate track recordings before merging them
together. I have to say it must have been an enormous amount of work.
Mark
After exploring it on guitar and talking with other guitarist who
have done it on guitar I just was not very happy with the results. I
also took one lesson with Mark but I was not properly prepared mostly
because I had lost enthusiasm since nothing seemed to work well. It
works well on piano but I'd like to hear it live on harpsichord.
It's just such a fine piece of music that I felt I wanted to get
closer to it. Mark's performance in his home has stuck in my brain as
one of those times in my life when music resonated with magic.
That's a good point Larry: How does THE STUDENT PERFORMER find magic
on stage (so that he or she can enjoy it too). Postivistic methods
and concepts like *developmentalism* , I believe, are not the way;
but more through a via negativa. Of course, what I consider magic
won't be what you do. I consider it spirit. Otherwise we have more
trained monkeys, and more greedy types profiting from their failed
path toward viruosity and complexity. Begin with complexity every
time the music is first presented to you, but ultimately, by the time
the performance comes, it should be an exercise in simplicity.

David
Larry Deack
2007-03-24 21:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
That's a good point Larry: How does THE STUDENT PERFORMER
find magic on stage (so that he or she can enjoy it too).
Depends on the student.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Postivistic methods and concepts like *developmentalism* ,
I believe, are not the way; but more through a via negativa.
Well I certainly learn by looking these terms up, thanks. I don't
quite see what you are contrasting. Can you explain without the jargon?

I read this: http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v4n8.html

I tend to see the teacher's role in education as both setting high
expectations that are well modeled by the teacher and a great deal of
observation and learning on the part of teachers to avoid imposing our
ignorance on students who are often more mature than us in some things.

For example, children's art often goes backwards as they are taught the
"rules".
Post by D***@gmail.com
Of course, what I consider magic won't be what you do.
I consider it spirit. Otherwise we have more
trained monkeys, and more greedy types profiting from their failed
path toward viruosity and complexity. Begin with complexity every
time the music is first presented to you, but ultimately, by the time
the performance comes, it should be an exercise in simplicity.
David
I find your writing very difficult to parse. You seem to be saying
several things at the same time but I'm not getting what you are driving
at. Complexity and simplicity are simply the same thing coming from
different directions. Most people know the simple equation of E=mc2 but
few people understand the complexity such a simple formula generates.

Your writing is complex and fun in some ways because of that but it
also tends to say much less than what a simple poem can do.
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-24 22:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by D***@gmail.com
That's a good point Larry: How does THE STUDENT PERFORMER
find magic on stage (so that he or she can enjoy it too).
Depends on the student.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Postivistic methods and concepts like *developmentalism* ,
I believe, are not the way; but more through a via negativa.
Well I certainly learn by looking these terms up, thanks. I don't
quite see what you are contrasting. Can you explain without the jargon?
I read this:http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v4n8.html
I tend to see the teacher's role in education as both setting high
expectations that are well modeled by the teacher and a great deal of
observation and learning on the part of teachers to avoid imposing our
ignorance on students who are often more mature than us in some things.
For example, children's art often goes backwards as they are taught the
"rules".
Post by D***@gmail.com
Of course, what I consider magic won't be what you do.
I consider it spirit. Otherwise we have more
trained monkeys, and more greedy types profiting from their failed
path toward viruosity and complexity. Begin with complexity every
time the music is first presented to you, but ultimately, by the time
the performance comes, it should be an exercise in simplicity.
David
I find your writing very difficult to parse. You seem to be saying
several things at the same time but I'm not getting what you are driving
at. Complexity and simplicity are simply the same thing coming from
different directions. Most people know the simple equation of E=mc2 but
few people understand the complexity such a simple formula generates.
Your writing is complex and fun in some ways because of that but it
also tends to say much less than what a simple poem can do.
That's because you dissimulate meaning.

David
dsi1
2007-03-24 20:30:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
When I first started reading I had many dyslexic episodes where I
would invert the staves. It took me a LOT of hardwork to overcome
this. I agree that good site reading can to lead to laziness when it
comes to memorizing. It's easier if you think of them as two separate
disciplines. Every night before a concert lay down and play the
conert in your head from beginning to end. Try to see the actual
dots. If you can't then you have a need to be nervous. When you wake
up, go over the specific areas that tripped you up, and I think you'll
see that you know the pieces pretty well.
David
My reading sucks still after many years. That's OK with me, mostly I use
the score to get the fingering of pieces I know. If I am not familiar
with the piece, the most important part of of learning it is to be able
to strip all traces of the printed score from my memory and just retain
the sound and feel of the music. I assume actors try to do the same
thing with scripts. If a performer sounds like he's reading from a
"script" (whether he is or isn't) my brain pretty much shuts down from
boredom. Guess I need the illusion.

David
John E. Golden
2007-03-26 15:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
When I first started reading I had many dyslexic episodes where I
would invert the staves. It took me a LOT of hardwork to overcome
this. I agree that good site reading can to lead to laziness when it
comes to memorizing. It's easier if you think of them as two separate
disciplines. Every night before a concert lay down and play the
conert in your head from beginning to end. Try to see the actual
dots. If you can't then you have a need to be nervous. When you wake
up, go over the specific areas that tripped you up, and I think you'll
see that you know the pieces pretty well.
OK, I've figured it out. You're really JW, aren't you?

Oh, and BTW, you sounded a lot better BS (before Smallman).

Regards,
John E. Golden
rib
2007-03-31 01:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
I agree that good site reading can to lead to laziness when it
comes to memorizing.
Yeah, sightreading's midrib can flabulate into a middrift bulge.

rib

D***@gmail.com
2007-03-24 18:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louie LaRue
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
http://tinyurl.com/2rljeh
&
http://tinyurl.com/2tjdod
Don't expect miracles, but they'll set you on your way.
By the way, to those who are excellent sight readers, do you even
bother trying to memorizing pieces anymore? Feel free to talk about
all facets of sight reading, and to give any advice on how to become
an excellent sight reader in the shortest amount of time.
I have made a concerted effort to improve my sight reading this year.
I guess it's a midlife crisis - just turned 50.
Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.
Single String Studies: Three strings a day from Single String Studies
Vol. 1 by Bruce Arnold.
Rhythms: 10 minutes a day from contemporary Rhythms by Bruce Arnold.
Sightreading Music: 30 minutes a day from a flute book - forgot the
name.
Reading isn't natural for me - LOTS OF HARD WORK!
And BTW, one doesn't need to *memorize* difficult pieces in order to
impress others. Sometimes when I go to competitions I think to myself
*why on earth did he even bother with this? (the performer)* Start
with very simple pieces, get up on stage and play them from memory. I
think that you'll find, in the long run, you'll enjoy the experience
much more.

David
unknown
2007-03-26 18:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louie LaRue
Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.
Louie:

That is a great idea.

Tim

Tim Berens
timb at erinet.com

http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists

Check out my CD with Dan Faehnle at:
http://cdbaby.com/timberens3
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-27 02:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Louie LaRue
Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.
That is a great idea.
Tim
Tim Berens
timb at erinet.com
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Check out my CD with Dan Faehnle at:http://cdbaby.com/timberens3
Old Idea,

Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond). Another
exercise is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.

David
Scott Daughtrey
2007-03-27 03:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by unknown
Post by Louie LaRue
Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.
That is a great idea.
Tim
Tim Berens
timb at erinet.com
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Check out my CD with Dan Faehnle at:http://cdbaby.com/timberens3
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond). Another
exercise is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
David
1. Old Idea - David Oakes was teaching this as a "reading study" at GIT more
than 25 years ago (without the goofy idea of playing the strings in no logical
manner)

2. You left out c (5th string, 3rd position)

3. The exercise is more effective if you do it on adjacent strings as opposed
to just randomly picking a string. eg. c on string 6, then 5, then 4, then 3,
then 2, then 1,then 2, then 3 etc, and back to 6.

For anyone trying this - no open strings; use the 12th fret instead.

Scott
sycochkn
2007-03-27 04:59:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by unknown
Post by Louie LaRue
Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.
That is a great idea.
Tim
Tim Berens
timb at erinet.com
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Check out my CD with Dan Faehnle at:http://cdbaby.com/timberens3
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond). Another
exercise is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
David
1. Old Idea - David Oakes was teaching this as a "reading study" at GIT more
than 25 years ago (without the goofy idea of playing the strings in no logical
manner)
2. You left out c (5th string, 3rd position)
3. The exercise is more effective if you do it on adjacent strings as opposed
to just randomly picking a string. eg. c on string 6, then 5, then 4, then 3,
then 2, then 1,then 2, then 3 etc, and back to 6.
For anyone trying this - no open strings; use the 12th fret instead.
Scott- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
you can also do the same thing with the triads on different adjacent 3
string sets.

for instance C X, X, X, 0, 1, 0 : X, X, 5, 5, 5, X : X, 10, 10,
9, X, X : 15,15,14, X, X

Bob
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-27 05:32:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by unknown
Post by Louie LaRue
Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.
That is a great idea.
Tim
Tim Berens
timb at erinet.com
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Check out my CD with Dan Faehnle at:http://cdbaby.com/timberens3
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond). Another
exercise is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
David
1. Old Idea - David Oakes was teaching this as a "reading study" at GIT more
than 25 years ago (without the goofy idea of playing the strings in no logical
manner)
2. You left out c (5th string, 3rd position)
3. The exercise is more effective if you do it on adjacent strings as opposed
to just randomly picking a string. eg. c on string 6, then 5, then 4, then 3,
then 2, then 1,then 2, then 3 etc, and back to 6.
For anyone trying this - no open strings; use the 12th fret instead.
Scott- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
you can also do the same thing with the triads on different adjacent 3
string sets.
for instance C X, X, X, 0, 1, 0 : X, X, 5, 5, 5, X : X, 10, 10,
9, X, X : 15,15,14, X, X
Bob
Scott and Bob, don't quite get the big picture, nor have the ability
to understand me (nor music for that matter). Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual. This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well. Of
course, the misunderstanding here is that Scott and Bob formulate
their OWN strategies based on their OWN experiences. It's a failure
of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get left-
brained trained monkey's and the dictatorship of relativism. We get
gigs and music from people who only see the fretboard as a means to an
end...harmonies that are radically contingent (in the jazz world) or
harmonies that are pre-determined and without spirit (in the classical
world).

Scott and Bob remind me of the show on the Discovery channel: *the
worst jobs in the world*. And they view it and say *that's not me*,
*I don't do that*. It's a view that is oppositional and reactive
without ever acknowleding that understanding music is about resolving
oppositions.

The floating ancillary ants and the dictators of relativism will get
their 15 minutes of fame, but the truth will endure.

David
sycochkn
2007-03-27 11:21:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by unknown
Post by Louie LaRue
Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.
That is a great idea.
Tim
Tim Berens
timb at erinet.com
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Check out my CD with Dan Faehnle at:http://cdbaby.com/timberens3
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond). Another
exercise is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
David
1. Old Idea - David Oakes was teaching this as a "reading study" at GIT more
than 25 years ago (without the goofy idea of playing the strings in no logical
manner)
2. You left out c (5th string, 3rd position)
3. The exercise is more effective if you do it on adjacent strings as opposed
to just randomly picking a string. eg. c on string 6, then 5, then 4, then 3,
then 2, then 1,then 2, then 3 etc, and back to 6.
For anyone trying this - no open strings; use the 12th fret instead.
Scott- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
you can also do the same thing with the triads on different adjacent 3
string sets.
for instance C X, X, X, 0, 1, 0 : X, X, 5, 5, 5, X : X, 10, 10,
9, X, X : 15,15,14, X, X
Bob
Scott and Bob, don't quite get the big picture, nor have the ability
to understand me (nor music for that matter). Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual. This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well. Of
course, the misunderstanding here is that Scott and Bob formulate
their OWN strategies based on their OWN experiences. It's a failure
of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get left-
brained trained monkey's and the dictatorship of relativism. We get
gigs and music from people who only see the fretboard as a means to an
end...harmonies that are radically contingent (in the jazz world) or
harmonies that are pre-determined and without spirit (in the classical
world).
Scott and Bob remind me of the show on the Discovery channel: *the
worst jobs in the world*. And they view it and say *that's not me*,
*I don't do that*. It's a view that is oppositional and reactive
without ever acknowleding that understanding music is about resolving
oppositions.
The floating ancillary ants and the dictators of relativism will get
their 15 minutes of fame, but the truth will endure.
David- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
You have exposed quite a bit about yourself.

Bob
Scott Daughtrey
2007-03-27 15:01:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by unknown
Post by Louie LaRue
Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.
That is a great idea.
Tim
Tim Berens
timb at erinet.com
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Check out my CD with Dan Faehnle at:http://cdbaby.com/timberens3
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond). Another
exercise is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
David
1. Old Idea - David Oakes was teaching this as a "reading study" at GIT more
than 25 years ago (without the goofy idea of playing the strings in no logical
manner)
2. You left out c (5th string, 3rd position)
3. The exercise is more effective if you do it on adjacent strings as opposed
to just randomly picking a string. eg. c on string 6, then 5, then 4, then 3,
then 2, then 1,then 2, then 3 etc, and back to 6.
For anyone trying this - no open strings; use the 12th fret instead.
Scott- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
you can also do the same thing with the triads on different adjacent 3
string sets.
for instance C X, X, X, 0, 1, 0 : X, X, 5, 5, 5, X : X, 10, 10,
9, X, X : 15,15,14, X, X
Bob
Scott and Bob, don't quite get the big picture, nor have the ability
to understand me (nor music for that matter). Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
There was nothing unique in the way you suggested moving about the fretboard.
What's unique about choosing to be random? Or forgetting that you have another
"c" to be dealt with?

"Look Ma, I got a Tribal tattoo, now I'm an individual..."
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
That would depend on your teaching method. Of course anyone who thinks outside
of pre-determined strategies would see this.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Of
course, the misunderstanding here is that Scott and Bob formulate
their OWN strategies based on their OWN experiences.
In grade school they teach you to read, clearly you got that far. However,
comprehension is a different issue. Perhaps I need to re-iterate it was DAVID
OAKES who formulated this particular strategy. Do I suggest to students
several ways that they might approach individualizing this type of exercise?

Beyond that it is simply remarkable how off base you are about me. Frankly, I
find that not only amusing but I prefer it that way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure
of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get left-
brained trained monkey's and the dictatorship of relativism. We get
gigs and music from people who only see the fretboard as a means to an
end...harmonies that are radically contingent (in the jazz world) or
harmonies that are pre-determined and without spirit (in the classical
world).
Yeah, I knew you were gonna say that - you're soooo original.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Scott and Bob remind me of the show on the Discovery channel: *the
worst jobs in the world*. And they view it and say *that's not me*,
*I don't do that*. It's a view that is oppositional and reactive
without ever acknowleding that understanding music is about resolving
oppositions.
Time for the Theme From Superman.
Post by D***@gmail.com
The floating ancillary ants and the dictators of relativism will get
their 15 minutes of fame, but the truth will endure.
David
Who's truth? Yours? Jacksons? How unique.

Scott
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-27 17:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by unknown
Post by Louie LaRue
Reading position studies: I created a program to generate Lily Pond
format code of random notes and then cut and paste it into Lily Pond
and create the notation. A position is defined as a six fret span.
Currently doing two pages a day.
That is a great idea.
Tim
Tim Berens
timb at erinet.com
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Check out my CD with Dan Faehnle at:http://cdbaby.com/timberens3
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond). Another
exercise is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
David
1. Old Idea - David Oakes was teaching this as a "reading study" at GIT more
than 25 years ago (without the goofy idea of playing the strings in no logical
manner)
2. You left out c (5th string, 3rd position)
3. The exercise is more effective if you do it on adjacent strings as opposed
to just randomly picking a string. eg. c on string 6, then 5, then 4, then 3,
then 2, then 1,then 2, then 3 etc, and back to 6.
For anyone trying this - no open strings; use the 12th fret instead.
Scott- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
you can also do the same thing with the triads on different adjacent 3
string sets.
for instance C X, X, X, 0, 1, 0 : X, X, 5, 5, 5, X : X, 10, 10,
9, X, X : 15,15,14, X, X
Bob
Scott and Bob, don't quite get the big picture, nor have the ability
to understand me (nor music for that matter). Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
There was nothing unique in the way you suggested moving about the fretboard.
What's unique about choosing to be random? Or forgetting that you have another
"c" to be dealt with?
"Look Ma, I got a Tribal tattoo, now I'm an individual..."
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
That would depend on your teaching method. Of course anyone who thinks outside
of pre-determined strategies would see this.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Of
course, the misunderstanding here is that Scott and Bob formulate
their OWN strategies based on their OWN experiences.
In grade school they teach you to read, clearly you got that far. However,
comprehension is a different issue. Perhaps I need to re-iterate it was DAVID
OAKES who formulated this particular strategy. Do I suggest to students
several ways that they might approach individualizing this type of exercise?
Beyond that it is simply remarkable how off base you are about me. Frankly, I
find that not only amusing but I prefer it that way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure
of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get left-
brained trained monkey's and the dictatorship of relativism. We get
gigs and music from people who only see the fretboard as a means to an
end...harmonies that are radically contingent (in the jazz world) or
harmonies that are pre-determined and without spirit (in the classical
world).
Yeah, I knew you were gonna say that - you're soooo original.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Scott and Bob remind me of the show on the Discovery channel: *the
worst jobs in the world*. And they view it and say *that's not me*,
*I don't do that*. It's a view that is oppositional and reactive
without ever acknowleding that understanding music is about resolving
oppositions.
Time for the Theme From Superman.
Post by D***@gmail.com
The floating ancillary ants and the dictators of relativism will get
their 15 minutes of fame, but the truth will endure.
David
Who's truth? Yours? Jacksons? How unique.
Scott
See, this is an example of how the relativists never get out of their
hole.

David
Jackson K. Eskew
2007-03-27 17:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Who's truth? Yours? Jacksons? How unique.
Do you see how enchained your mind is to the dictatorship of
relativism? You automatically speak of truth as if it were a product,
a possession, something we can put in our pockets. There is no "my"
truth or "your" truth. There is only truth. Different perceptions
reveal only that error is manifold, not that there is no absolute
truth.

I invite you to watch the excellent film Rashomon by Kurosawa, an
exploration of relativity.
Scott Daughtrey
2007-03-28 05:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Who's truth? Yours? Jacksons? How unique.
Do you see how enchained your mind is to the dictatorship of
relativism?
No.
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
You automatically speak of truth as if it were a product,
a possession, something we can put in our pockets.
So I take it you have no Truth Brand condoms?
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
There is no "my"
truth or "your" truth. There is only truth. Different perceptions
reveal only that error is manifold, not that there is no absolute
truth.
Many truths are relative. Is it true you are a moron? Yes and no. Your
intelligence is quite relative.
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
I invite you to watch the excellent film Rashomon by Kurosawa, an
exploration of relativity.
Only if you'll eat popcorn out of the bag in my lap.

Scott
SleepyHead
2007-03-28 13:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Who's truth? Yours? Jacksons? How unique.
Do you see how enchained your mind is to the dictatorship of
relativism? You automatically speak of truth as if it were a product,
a possession, something we can put in our pockets. There is no "my"
truth or "your" truth. There is only truth. Different perceptions
reveal only that error is manifold, not that there is no absolute
truth.
Spoken like a true objectivist.

Except that to be a proper objectivist you have to believe that this
truth lives somewhere and - seeing as there /are/ such things as non-
correspondence truths - this means the non-correspondence truths have
to 'live' somewhere in order for them to be facts rather than opinions
- i.e. objective.

So which would you prefer .... Plato's world of Forms or Kant's
Noumena?

I assure you that both have just as many philosophical problems
attached to them as relativism.

And no - there aren't any other options available.
Jackson K. Eskew
2007-03-27 17:15:08 UTC
Permalink
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
True. Notice that in my recent thread inviting people to state some
absolute, universal principles and rules of classical guitar pedagogy
and mastery, only one person made the attempt - and even he failed to
follow my directions to state the principles from which each rule
flowed. And so we see that even those who have yet to fully prostrate
themselves before this regime's throne have had their minds darkened.

"I have my own learning style" is all the rage under the dictatorship
of relativism. This accords with this regime's customized, consumerist
approach to everything. In religion, we have buffet spirituality; in
education, self-esteem building and increasingly absurd, incoherent,
scattered curricula; in politics, incredibly, a man named Barack
Hussein Obama is actually a serious candidate for President of the
United States. This last is a testament to the allegedly exquisite
nonjudgmentalism of this regime and is fundamentally, of course,
narcissistic. Barack Hussein Obama's supporters, via their support,
celebrate not him, but themselves. "Don't you see?" they say, "I'm
very open-minded. You're not looking. Look at how open-minded I am!"
The consumerist categories of comfort and self-affirmation are at the
root of all of it. Perhaps we're beginning to see how Oprahism is an
essential part of the dictatorship of relativism.

"There is one thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost
every student entering the university believes, or says he believes,
that truth is relative....Relativism is necessary to openness, and
this is the virtue, the only virtue, which all primary education for
more than fifty years has dedicated itself to inculcating."

-Allan Bloom, The Closing of the American Mind
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-27 17:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
True. Notice that in my recent thread inviting people to state some
absolute, universal principles and rules of classical guitar pedagogy
and mastery, only one person made the attempt - and even he failed to
follow my directions to state the principles from which each rule
flowed. And so we see that even those who have yet to fully prostrate
themselves before this regime's throne have had their minds darkened.
"I have my own learning style" is all the rage under the dictatorship
of relativism. This accords with this regime's customized, consumerist
approach to everything. In religion, we have buffet spirituality; in
education, self-esteem building and increasingly absurd, incoherent,
scattered curricula; in politics, incredibly, a man named Barack
Hussein Obama is actually a serious candidate for President of the
United States. This last is a testament to the allegedly exquisite
nonjudgmentalism of this regime and is fundamentally, of course,
narcissistic. Barack Hussein Obama's supporters, via their support,
celebrate not him, but themselves. "Don't you see?" they say, "I'm
very open-minded. You're not looking. Look at how open-minded I am!"
The consumerist categories of comfort and self-affirmation are at the
root of all of it. Perhaps we're beginning to see how Oprahism is an
essential part of the dictatorship of relativism.
"There is one thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost
every student entering the university believes, or says he believes,
that truth is relative....Relativism is necessary to openness, and
this is the virtue, the only virtue, which all primary education for
more than fifty years has dedicated itself to inculcating."
-Allan Bloom, The Closing of the American Mind
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
relationship of the notes) but is logical in its underpinnings:
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.

David
r***@hotmail.com
2007-03-27 17:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
True. Notice that in my recent thread inviting people to state some
absolute, universal principles and rules of classical guitar pedagogy
and mastery, only one person made the attempt - and even he failed to
follow my directions to state the principles from which each rule
flowed. And so we see that even those who have yet to fully prostrate
themselves before this regime's throne have had their minds darkened.
"I have my own learning style" is all the rage under the dictatorship
of relativism. This accords with this regime's customized, consumerist
approach to everything. In religion, we have buffet spirituality; in
education, self-esteem building and increasingly absurd, incoherent,
scattered curricula; in politics, incredibly, a man named Barack
Hussein Obama is actually a serious candidate for President of the
United States. This last is a testament to the allegedly exquisite
nonjudgmentalism of this regime and is fundamentally, of course,
narcissistic. Barack Hussein Obama's supporters, via their support,
celebrate not him, but themselves. "Don't you see?" they say, "I'm
very open-minded. You're not looking. Look at how open-minded I am!"
The consumerist categories of comfort and self-affirmation are at the
root of all of it. Perhaps we're beginning to see how Oprahism is an
essential part of the dictatorship of relativism.
"There is one thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost
every student entering the university believes, or says he believes,
that truth is relative....Relativism is necessary to openness, and
this is the virtue, the only virtue, which all primary education for
more than fifty years has dedicated itself to inculcating."
-Allan Bloom, The Closing of the American Mind
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.
David
Yes, the reframing of the eidos is the real issue.
Scott Daughtrey
2007-03-28 06:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.
And this aids in sight-reading how?
Post by D***@gmail.com
David
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond).
The implication is that Lee was sight-reading notes randomly generated,
whether on paper or in some other fashion, especially given the context of the
posters comments you responded to; you even suggest it is the same old idea.
You never made any connection to Lee simply mentally randomly generating
finger placement which is a completely different strategy (it's possible he
was not even thinking of note names; given the circumstance perhaps it's time
for you to provide evidence and specific details of Lee's exercise, hunh, as
opposed to being condescending? Bad on you for poor communication in the first
place.) Such an exercise suggests completely different possibilities and
goals.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Another
exercise
which clearly implies that we are now discussing a different exercise, never
identified as one of Lee's so I'll assume for now it's your baby...
Post by D***@gmail.com
is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
In fact, common sense would point to the fact that there are exactly 6 of each
note in different octaves between fret 1 and fret 12 across the six strings,
it ain't rocket science. Not 3, not four, but 6. Even if we include open
strings the number goes up, not down. (Actually, common sense would again
prevail in suggesting there would be 7 positions of pitches that are open
strings a, d, g or b, 8 positions of e, and 6 positions of notes that are not
open strings).

Incidentally, Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" covers many such
subjects in a very creative and fertile format; funny, entertaining and very
educational. Even philisophical at times, in a constructive way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
The ability do identify notes quickly and naturally will indeed help
sight-reading. Common sense would suggest that a method that proves functional
and relatively complete would probably serve the needs of aiding sight-reading
better than some half-baked exercise.

Unless you care to explain the specific methodology that led to the omission
of the c note on the 5th string 3rd fret then we are left with one obvious and
serious flaw in your exercise - with no specific logic in mind it leads to an
incomplete knowledge of the fretboard. The same could be suggested by your
comments regarding the "3 or 4 notes or more" - it suggests an incomplete
knowledge of the fretboard (more than suggests).

Anyone who performs the exercise I suggested for a few minutes daily for a few
weeks would find that in less that 3-4 seconds they can not only identify
where all 6 pitches are but they will also play them each twice (except the
outside string). That would suggest a definite and proven method of increasing
fretboard knowledge and reaction time. It would also crystallize your ability
to quickly identify fingering strategies.

In layman's terms, your arguements so far do not appear relevant, relatively
speaking. Do tell, how is your exercise more functional than Mr. Oakes and
why?
Post by D***@gmail.com
Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
Which exercise is "this" exercise - Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the
second one stated as "another exercise"?

What is unique about the way your second exercise manouvers the fretboard?
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the second one stated as "another
exercise"?

Scott
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-28 15:55:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.
And this aids in sight-reading how?
Post by D***@gmail.com
David
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond).
The implication is that Lee was sight-reading notes randomly generated,
whether on paper or in some other fashion, especially given the context of the
posters comments you responded to; you even suggest it is the same old idea.
You never made any connection to Lee simply mentally randomly generating
finger placement which is a completely different strategy (it's possible he
was not even thinking of note names; given the circumstance perhaps it's time
for you to provide evidence and specific details of Lee's exercise, hunh, as
opposed to being condescending? Bad on you for poor communication in the first
place.) Such an exercise suggests completely different possibilities and
goals.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Another
exercise
which clearly implies that we are now discussing a different exercise, never
identified as one of Lee's so I'll assume for now it's your baby...
Post by D***@gmail.com
is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
In fact, common sense would point to the fact that there are exactly 6 of each
note in different octaves between fret 1 and fret 12 across the six strings,
it ain't rocket science. Not 3, not four, but 6. Even if we include open
strings the number goes up, not down. (Actually, common sense would again
prevail in suggesting there would be 7 positions of pitches that are open
strings a, d, g or b, 8 positions of e, and 6 positions of notes that are not
open strings).
Incidentally, Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" covers many such
subjects in a very creative and fertile format; funny, entertaining and very
educational. Even philisophical at times, in a constructive way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
The ability do identify notes quickly and naturally will indeed help
sight-reading. Common sense would suggest that a method that proves functional
and relatively complete would probably serve the needs of aiding sight-reading
better than some half-baked exercise.
Unless you care to explain the specific methodology that led to the omission
of the c note on the 5th string 3rd fret then we are left with one obvious and
serious flaw in your exercise - with no specific logic in mind it leads to an
incomplete knowledge of the fretboard. The same could be suggested by your
comments regarding the "3 or 4 notes or more" - it suggests an incomplete
knowledge of the fretboard (more than suggests).
Anyone who performs the exercise I suggested for a few minutes daily for a few
weeks would find that in less that 3-4 seconds they can not only identify
where all 6 pitches are but they will also play them each twice (except the
outside string). That would suggest a definite and proven method of increasing
fretboard knowledge and reaction time. It would also crystallize your ability
to quickly identify fingering strategies.
In layman's terms, your arguements so far do not appear relevant, relatively
speaking. Do tell, how is your exercise more functional than Mr. Oakes and
why?
Post by D***@gmail.com
Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
Which exercise is "this" exercise - Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the
second one stated as "another exercise"?
What is unique about the way your second exercise manouvers the fretboard?
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the second one stated as "another
exercise"?
Scott
Scott,

I'm not here to give anyone lessons in reading. Maybe try reading
outside of the bathroom? (no distracting noises and smells). Re-read
the post and you'll understand the lesson.

David
Scott Daughtrey
2007-03-28 16:08:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.
And this aids in sight-reading how?
Post by D***@gmail.com
David
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond).
The implication is that Lee was sight-reading notes randomly generated,
whether on paper or in some other fashion, especially given the context of the
posters comments you responded to; you even suggest it is the same old idea.
You never made any connection to Lee simply mentally randomly generating
finger placement which is a completely different strategy (it's possible he
was not even thinking of note names; given the circumstance perhaps it's time
for you to provide evidence and specific details of Lee's exercise, hunh, as
opposed to being condescending? Bad on you for poor communication in the first
place.) Such an exercise suggests completely different possibilities and
goals.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Another
exercise
which clearly implies that we are now discussing a different exercise, never
identified as one of Lee's so I'll assume for now it's your baby...
Post by D***@gmail.com
is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
In fact, common sense would point to the fact that there are exactly 6 of each
note in different octaves between fret 1 and fret 12 across the six strings,
it ain't rocket science. Not 3, not four, but 6. Even if we include open
strings the number goes up, not down. (Actually, common sense would again
prevail in suggesting there would be 7 positions of pitches that are open
strings a, d, g or b, 8 positions of e, and 6 positions of notes that are not
open strings).
Incidentally, Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" covers many such
subjects in a very creative and fertile format; funny, entertaining and very
educational. Even philisophical at times, in a constructive way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
The ability do identify notes quickly and naturally will indeed help
sight-reading. Common sense would suggest that a method that proves functional
and relatively complete would probably serve the needs of aiding sight-reading
better than some half-baked exercise.
Unless you care to explain the specific methodology that led to the omission
of the c note on the 5th string 3rd fret then we are left with one obvious and
serious flaw in your exercise - with no specific logic in mind it leads to an
incomplete knowledge of the fretboard. The same could be suggested by your
comments regarding the "3 or 4 notes or more" - it suggests an incomplete
knowledge of the fretboard (more than suggests).
Anyone who performs the exercise I suggested for a few minutes daily for a few
weeks would find that in less that 3-4 seconds they can not only identify
where all 6 pitches are but they will also play them each twice (except the
outside string). That would suggest a definite and proven method of increasing
fretboard knowledge and reaction time. It would also crystallize your ability
to quickly identify fingering strategies.
In layman's terms, your arguements so far do not appear relevant, relatively
speaking. Do tell, how is your exercise more functional than Mr. Oakes and
why?
Post by D***@gmail.com
Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
Which exercise is "this" exercise - Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the
second one stated as "another exercise"?
What is unique about the way your second exercise manouvers the fretboard?
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the second one stated as "another
exercise"?
Scott
Scott,
I'm not here to give anyone lessons in reading. Maybe try reading
outside of the bathroom? (no distracting noises and smells).
And maybe your cop-out is a result of getting caught with your pants down
outside of the "white swallow". Quite unflattering I must say.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Re-read
the post and you'll understand the lesson.
Yup, cop-out. Trying studying more guitar and less philosophy.

Does anyone want to suggest they found David's exercise useful, claim it has
assisted their sight reading and explain why?

Scott
r***@hotmail.com
2007-03-28 16:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.
And this aids in sight-reading how?
Post by D***@gmail.com
David
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond).
The implication is that Lee was sight-reading notes randomly generated,
whether on paper or in some other fashion, especially given the context of the
posters comments you responded to; you even suggest it is the same old idea.
You never made any connection to Lee simply mentally randomly generating
finger placement which is a completely different strategy (it's possible he
was not even thinking of note names; given the circumstance perhaps it's time
for you to provide evidence and specific details of Lee's exercise, hunh, as
opposed to being condescending? Bad on you for poor communication in the first
place.) Such an exercise suggests completely different possibilities and
goals.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Another
exercise
which clearly implies that we are now discussing a different exercise, never
identified as one of Lee's so I'll assume for now it's your baby...
Post by D***@gmail.com
is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
In fact, common sense would point to the fact that there are exactly 6 of each
note in different octaves between fret 1 and fret 12 across the six strings,
it ain't rocket science. Not 3, not four, but 6. Even if we include open
strings the number goes up, not down. (Actually, common sense would again
prevail in suggesting there would be 7 positions of pitches that are open
strings a, d, g or b, 8 positions of e, and 6 positions of notes that are not
open strings).
Incidentally, Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" covers many such
subjects in a very creative and fertile format; funny, entertaining and very
educational. Even philisophical at times, in a constructive way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
The ability do identify notes quickly and naturally will indeed help
sight-reading. Common sense would suggest that a method that proves functional
and relatively complete would probably serve the needs of aiding sight-reading
better than some half-baked exercise.
Unless you care to explain the specific methodology that led to the omission
of the c note on the 5th string 3rd fret then we are left with one obvious and
serious flaw in your exercise - with no specific logic in mind it leads to an
incomplete knowledge of the fretboard. The same could be suggested by your
comments regarding the "3 or 4 notes or more" - it suggests an incomplete
knowledge of the fretboard (more than suggests).
Anyone who performs the exercise I suggested for a few minutes daily for a few
weeks would find that in less that 3-4 seconds they can not only identify
where all 6 pitches are but they will also play them each twice (except the
outside string). That would suggest a definite and proven method of increasing
fretboard knowledge and reaction time. It would also crystallize your ability
to quickly identify fingering strategies.
In layman's terms, your arguements so far do not appear relevant, relatively
speaking. Do tell, how is your exercise more functional than Mr. Oakes and
why?
Post by D***@gmail.com
Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
Which exercise is "this" exercise - Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the
second one stated as "another exercise"?
What is unique about the way your second exercise manouvers the fretboard?
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the second one stated as "another
exercise"?
Scott
Scott,
I'm not here to give anyone lessons in reading. Maybe try reading
outside of the bathroom? (no distracting noises and smells).
And maybe your cop-out is a result of getting caught with your pants down
outside of the "white swallow". Quite unflattering I must say.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Re-read
the post and you'll understand the lesson.
Yup, cop-out. Trying studying more guitar and less philosophy.
Does anyone want to suggest they found David's exercise useful, claim it has
assisted their sight reading and explain why?
Scott
Feeling argumentative again? Oh, yeah I forgot- I'm the argumentative
one :)
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-28 16:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.
And this aids in sight-reading how?
Post by D***@gmail.com
David
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond).
The implication is that Lee was sight-reading notes randomly generated,
whether on paper or in some other fashion, especially given the context of the
posters comments you responded to; you even suggest it is the same old idea.
You never made any connection to Lee simply mentally randomly generating
finger placement which is a completely different strategy (it's possible he
was not even thinking of note names; given the circumstance perhaps it's time
for you to provide evidence and specific details of Lee's exercise, hunh, as
opposed to being condescending? Bad on you for poor communication in the first
place.) Such an exercise suggests completely different possibilities and
goals.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Another
exercise
which clearly implies that we are now discussing a different exercise, never
identified as one of Lee's so I'll assume for now it's your baby...
Post by D***@gmail.com
is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
In fact, common sense would point to the fact that there are exactly 6 of each
note in different octaves between fret 1 and fret 12 across the six strings,
it ain't rocket science. Not 3, not four, but 6. Even if we include open
strings the number goes up, not down. (Actually, common sense would again
prevail in suggesting there would be 7 positions of pitches that are open
strings a, d, g or b, 8 positions of e, and 6 positions of notes that are not
open strings).
Incidentally, Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" covers many such
subjects in a very creative and fertile format; funny, entertaining and very
educational. Even philisophical at times, in a constructive way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
The ability do identify notes quickly and naturally will indeed help
sight-reading. Common sense would suggest that a method that proves functional
and relatively complete would probably serve the needs of aiding sight-reading
better than some half-baked exercise.
Unless you care to explain the specific methodology that led to the omission
of the c note on the 5th string 3rd fret then we are left with one obvious and
serious flaw in your exercise - with no specific logic in mind it leads to an
incomplete knowledge of the fretboard. The same could be suggested by your
comments regarding the "3 or 4 notes or more" - it suggests an incomplete
knowledge of the fretboard (more than suggests).
Anyone who performs the exercise I suggested for a few minutes daily for a few
weeks would find that in less that 3-4 seconds they can not only identify
where all 6 pitches are but they will also play them each twice (except the
outside string). That would suggest a definite and proven method of increasing
fretboard knowledge and reaction time. It would also crystallize your ability
to quickly identify fingering strategies.
In layman's terms, your arguements so far do not appear relevant, relatively
speaking. Do tell, how is your exercise more functional than Mr. Oakes and
why?
Post by D***@gmail.com
Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
Which exercise is "this" exercise - Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the
second one stated as "another exercise"?
What is unique about the way your second exercise manouvers the fretboard?
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the second one stated as "another
exercise"?
Scott
Scott,
I'm not here to give anyone lessons in reading. Maybe try reading
outside of the bathroom? (no distracting noises and smells).
And maybe your cop-out is a result of getting caught with your pants down
outside of the "white swallow". Quite unflattering I must say.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Re-read
the post and you'll understand the lesson.
Yup, cop-out. Trying studying more guitar and less philosophy.
Does anyone want to suggest they found David's exercise useful, claim it has
assisted their sight reading and explain why?
Scott
Another relativist trying to reclaim the harness of the jury. For
him, democracy is utilitarian.

Daivd
r***@hotmail.com
2007-03-28 16:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.
And this aids in sight-reading how?
Post by D***@gmail.com
David
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond).
The implication is that Lee was sight-reading notes randomly generated,
whether on paper or in some other fashion, especially given the context of the
posters comments you responded to; you even suggest it is the same old idea.
You never made any connection to Lee simply mentally randomly generating
finger placement which is a completely different strategy (it's possible he
was not even thinking of note names; given the circumstance perhaps it's time
for you to provide evidence and specific details of Lee's exercise, hunh, as
opposed to being condescending? Bad on you for poor communication in the first
place.) Such an exercise suggests completely different possibilities and
goals.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Another
exercise
which clearly implies that we are now discussing a different exercise, never
identified as one of Lee's so I'll assume for now it's your baby...
Post by D***@gmail.com
is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
In fact, common sense would point to the fact that there are exactly 6 of each
note in different octaves between fret 1 and fret 12 across the six strings,
it ain't rocket science. Not 3, not four, but 6. Even if we include open
strings the number goes up, not down. (Actually, common sense would again
prevail in suggesting there would be 7 positions of pitches that are open
strings a, d, g or b, 8 positions of e, and 6 positions of notes that are not
open strings).
Incidentally, Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" covers many such
subjects in a very creative and fertile format; funny, entertaining and very
educational. Even philisophical at times, in a constructive way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
The ability do identify notes quickly and naturally will indeed help
sight-reading. Common sense would suggest that a method that proves functional
and relatively complete would probably serve the needs of aiding sight-reading
better than some half-baked exercise.
Unless you care to explain the specific methodology that led to the omission
of the c note on the 5th string 3rd fret then we are left with one obvious and
serious flaw in your exercise - with no specific logic in mind it leads to an
incomplete knowledge of the fretboard. The same could be suggested by your
comments regarding the "3 or 4 notes or more" - it suggests an incomplete
knowledge of the fretboard (more than suggests).
Anyone who performs the exercise I suggested for a few minutes daily for a few
weeks would find that in less that 3-4 seconds they can not only identify
where all 6 pitches are but they will also play them each twice (except the
outside string). That would suggest a definite and proven method of increasing
fretboard knowledge and reaction time. It would also crystallize your ability
to quickly identify fingering strategies.
In layman's terms, your arguements so far do not appear relevant, relatively
speaking. Do tell, how is your exercise more functional than Mr. Oakes and
why?
Post by D***@gmail.com
Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
Which exercise is "this" exercise - Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the
second one stated as "another exercise"?
What is unique about the way your second exercise manouvers the fretboard?
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the second one stated as "another
exercise"?
Scott
Scott,
I'm not here to give anyone lessons in reading. Maybe try reading
outside of the bathroom? (no distracting noises and smells).
And maybe your cop-out is a result of getting caught with your pants down
outside of the "white swallow". Quite unflattering I must say.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Re-read
the post and you'll understand the lesson.
Yup, cop-out. Trying studying more guitar and less philosophy.
Does anyone want to suggest they found David's exercise useful, claim it has
assisted their sight reading and explain why?
Scott
Another relativist trying to reclaim the harness of the jury. For
him, democracy is utilitarian.
Daivd
Perhaps it would help for someone to:
1: define relativism
2: Show why it is an incoherent viewpoint
start with cultural relativism
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-28 16:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@hotmail.com
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.
And this aids in sight-reading how?
Post by D***@gmail.com
David
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond).
The implication is that Lee was sight-reading notes randomly generated,
whether on paper or in some other fashion, especially given the context of the
posters comments you responded to; you even suggest it is the same old idea.
You never made any connection to Lee simply mentally randomly generating
finger placement which is a completely different strategy (it's possible he
was not even thinking of note names; given the circumstance perhaps it's time
for you to provide evidence and specific details of Lee's exercise, hunh, as
opposed to being condescending? Bad on you for poor communication in the first
place.) Such an exercise suggests completely different possibilities and
goals.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Another
exercise
which clearly implies that we are now discussing a different exercise, never
identified as one of Lee's so I'll assume for now it's your baby...
Post by D***@gmail.com
is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
In fact, common sense would point to the fact that there are exactly 6 of each
note in different octaves between fret 1 and fret 12 across the six strings,
it ain't rocket science. Not 3, not four, but 6. Even if we include open
strings the number goes up, not down. (Actually, common sense would again
prevail in suggesting there would be 7 positions of pitches that are open
strings a, d, g or b, 8 positions of e, and 6 positions of notes that are not
open strings).
Incidentally, Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" covers many such
subjects in a very creative and fertile format; funny, entertaining and very
educational. Even philisophical at times, in a constructive way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
The ability do identify notes quickly and naturally will indeed help
sight-reading. Common sense would suggest that a method that proves functional
and relatively complete would probably serve the needs of aiding sight-reading
better than some half-baked exercise.
Unless you care to explain the specific methodology that led to the omission
of the c note on the 5th string 3rd fret then we are left with one obvious and
serious flaw in your exercise - with no specific logic in mind it leads to an
incomplete knowledge of the fretboard. The same could be suggested by your
comments regarding the "3 or 4 notes or more" - it suggests an incomplete
knowledge of the fretboard (more than suggests).
Anyone who performs the exercise I suggested for a few minutes daily for a few
weeks would find that in less that 3-4 seconds they can not only identify
where all 6 pitches are but they will also play them each twice (except the
outside string). That would suggest a definite and proven method of increasing
fretboard knowledge and reaction time. It would also crystallize your ability
to quickly identify fingering strategies.
In layman's terms, your arguements so far do not appear relevant, relatively
speaking. Do tell, how is your exercise more functional than Mr. Oakes and
why?
Post by D***@gmail.com
Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
Which exercise is "this" exercise - Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the
second one stated as "another exercise"?
What is unique about the way your second exercise manouvers the fretboard?
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the second one stated as "another
exercise"?
Scott
Scott,
I'm not here to give anyone lessons in reading. Maybe try reading
outside of the bathroom? (no distracting noises and smells).
And maybe your cop-out is a result of getting caught with your pants down
outside of the "white swallow". Quite unflattering I must say.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Re-read
the post and you'll understand the lesson.
Yup, cop-out. Trying studying more guitar and less philosophy.
Does anyone want to suggest they found David's exercise useful, claim it has
assisted their sight reading and explain why?
Scott
Another relativist trying to reclaim the harness of the jury. For
him, democracy is utilitarian.
Daivd
1: define relativism
2: Show why it is an incoherent viewpoint
start with cultural relativism
ROF,

In this context, for scott (because we're discussing potty training),
relativism is defined through metaphor. Some human beings are
floaters and some are sinkers, but he gets to flush down in the end.
That describes the relativism of his brand of the will to power.

Relativism as I understand it begins with a hermeneutics of suspicion
where texts are all equal first and then made to create a (relative)
synthesis where existence is always already born and open-ended.
Merleu-ponty called it a *bad dialectic* where it criticizes itself
and surpasses itself through a separate bundle of statements or
texts. That is, there is never a hyperdialectic like Hegel's (or
others). There is always a pre-logical bond dominating the
relativists dialectic.

David
Scott Daughtrey
2007-03-29 03:40:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.
And this aids in sight-reading how?
Post by D***@gmail.com
David
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond).
The implication is that Lee was sight-reading notes randomly generated,
whether on paper or in some other fashion, especially given the context of the
posters comments you responded to; you even suggest it is the same old idea.
You never made any connection to Lee simply mentally randomly generating
finger placement which is a completely different strategy (it's possible he
was not even thinking of note names; given the circumstance perhaps it's time
for you to provide evidence and specific details of Lee's exercise, hunh, as
opposed to being condescending? Bad on you for poor communication in the first
place.) Such an exercise suggests completely different possibilities and
goals.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Another
exercise
which clearly implies that we are now discussing a different exercise, never
identified as one of Lee's so I'll assume for now it's your baby...
Post by D***@gmail.com
is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
In fact, common sense would point to the fact that there are exactly 6 of each
note in different octaves between fret 1 and fret 12 across the six strings,
it ain't rocket science. Not 3, not four, but 6. Even if we include open
strings the number goes up, not down. (Actually, common sense would again
prevail in suggesting there would be 7 positions of pitches that are open
strings a, d, g or b, 8 positions of e, and 6 positions of notes that are not
open strings).
Incidentally, Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" covers many such
subjects in a very creative and fertile format; funny, entertaining and very
educational. Even philisophical at times, in a constructive way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
The ability do identify notes quickly and naturally will indeed help
sight-reading. Common sense would suggest that a method that proves functional
and relatively complete would probably serve the needs of aiding sight-reading
better than some half-baked exercise.
Unless you care to explain the specific methodology that led to the omission
of the c note on the 5th string 3rd fret then we are left with one obvious and
serious flaw in your exercise - with no specific logic in mind it leads to an
incomplete knowledge of the fretboard. The same could be suggested by your
comments regarding the "3 or 4 notes or more" - it suggests an incomplete
knowledge of the fretboard (more than suggests).
Anyone who performs the exercise I suggested for a few minutes daily for a few
weeks would find that in less that 3-4 seconds they can not only identify
where all 6 pitches are but they will also play them each twice (except the
outside string). That would suggest a definite and proven method of increasing
fretboard knowledge and reaction time. It would also crystallize your ability
to quickly identify fingering strategies.
In layman's terms, your arguements so far do not appear relevant, relatively
speaking. Do tell, how is your exercise more functional than Mr. Oakes and
why?
Post by D***@gmail.com
Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
Which exercise is "this" exercise - Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the
second one stated as "another exercise"?
What is unique about the way your second exercise manouvers the fretboard?
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the second one stated as "another
exercise"?
Scott
Scott,
I'm not here to give anyone lessons in reading. Maybe try reading
outside of the bathroom? (no distracting noises and smells).
And maybe your cop-out is a result of getting caught with your pants down
outside of the "white swallow". Quite unflattering I must say.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Re-read
the post and you'll understand the lesson.
Yup, cop-out. Trying studying more guitar and less philosophy.
Does anyone want to suggest they found David's exercise useful, claim it has
assisted their sight reading and explain why?
Scott
Another relativist trying to reclaim the harness of the jury. For
him, democracy is utilitarian.
Daivd
Unh, no, since you appear incapable of reasonably supporting your own opinions
I thought perhaps some other benevolant soul would chime in.

Nope.

Let me know if you ever need help finding that missing c.

Scott
sycochkn
2007-03-29 02:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.
And this aids in sight-reading how?
Post by D***@gmail.com
David
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond).
The implication is that Lee was sight-reading notes randomly generated,
whether on paper or in some other fashion, especially given the context of the
posters comments you responded to; you even suggest it is the same old idea.
You never made any connection to Lee simply mentally randomly generating
finger placement which is a completely different strategy (it's possible he
was not even thinking of note names; given the circumstance perhaps it's time
for you to provide evidence and specific details of Lee's exercise, hunh, as
opposed to being condescending? Bad on you for poor communication in the first
place.) Such an exercise suggests completely different possibilities and
goals.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Another
exercise
which clearly implies that we are now discussing a different exercise, never
identified as one of Lee's so I'll assume for now it's your baby...
Post by D***@gmail.com
is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
In fact, common sense would point to the fact that there are exactly 6 of each
note in different octaves between fret 1 and fret 12 across the six strings,
it ain't rocket science. Not 3, not four, but 6. Even if we include open
strings the number goes up, not down. (Actually, common sense would again
prevail in suggesting there would be 7 positions of pitches that are open
strings a, d, g or b, 8 positions of e, and 6 positions of notes that are not
open strings).
Incidentally, Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" covers many such
subjects in a very creative and fertile format; funny, entertaining and very
educational. Even philisophical at times, in a constructive way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
The ability do identify notes quickly and naturally will indeed help
sight-reading. Common sense would suggest that a method that proves functional
and relatively complete would probably serve the needs of aiding sight-reading
better than some half-baked exercise.
Unless you care to explain the specific methodology that led to the omission
of the c note on the 5th string 3rd fret then we are left with one obvious and
serious flaw in your exercise - with no specific logic in mind it leads to an
incomplete knowledge of the fretboard. The same could be suggested by your
comments regarding the "3 or 4 notes or more" - it suggests an incomplete
knowledge of the fretboard (more than suggests).
Anyone who performs the exercise I suggested for a few minutes daily for a few
weeks would find that in less that 3-4 seconds they can not only identify
where all 6 pitches are but they will also play them each twice (except the
outside string). That would suggest a definite and proven method of increasing
fretboard knowledge and reaction time. It would also crystallize your ability
to quickly identify fingering strategies.
In layman's terms, your arguements so far do not appear relevant, relatively
speaking. Do tell, how is your exercise more functional than Mr. Oakes and
why?
Post by D***@gmail.com
Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
Which exercise is "this" exercise - Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the
second one stated as "another exercise"?
What is unique about the way your second exercise manouvers the fretboard?
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the second one stated as "another
exercise"?
Scott- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I have been doing this sort of thing for months it is not very
efficient. It has to be coupled with actual sight reading practice in
order to be of any value at all. It does help you memorize the
fretboard.

Bob
D***@gmail.com
2007-03-29 02:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Post by D***@gmail.com
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
The principle may be a simple one, but it needs to be stated first.
In Lee Ritenour's excercise the principle is eidetic: each note has
no mooring but is simply a note in and for itself. If the student
starts to see patterns of notes and reframes the eidos, this principle
is lost. That's why there's no logical lesson here (viz. the
representation (of notes) is never fully understood by anyone, just
like the assonance of speech viz. the representation of language (the
old parole vs. langue polemic). The exercise may encourage the
student to begin to strategize and logically think about the
fretboard, but that's not the point of doing this actual exercise.
And this aids in sight-reading how?
Post by D***@gmail.com
David
Old Idea,
Lee Ritenour used to do this (without the goofy Lily Pond).
The implication is that Lee was sight-reading notes randomly generated,
whether on paper or in some other fashion, especially given the context of the
posters comments you responded to; you even suggest it is the same old idea.
You never made any connection to Lee simply mentally randomly generating
finger placement which is a completely different strategy (it's possible he
was not even thinking of note names; given the circumstance perhaps it's time
for you to provide evidence and specific details of Lee's exercise, hunh, as
opposed to being condescending? Bad on you for poor communication in the first
place.) Such an exercise suggests completely different possibilities and
goals.
Post by D***@gmail.com
Another
exercise
which clearly implies that we are now discussing a different exercise, never
identified as one of Lee's so I'll assume for now it's your baby...
Post by D***@gmail.com
is to play as quickly as one can the 3 or 4 notes or more on
the fretboard (different octaves) of each pitch on different strings.
In fact, common sense would point to the fact that there are exactly 6 of each
note in different octaves between fret 1 and fret 12 across the six strings,
it ain't rocket science. Not 3, not four, but 6. Even if we include open
strings the number goes up, not down. (Actually, common sense would again
prevail in suggesting there would be 7 positions of pitches that are open
strings a, d, g or b, 8 positions of e, and 6 positions of notes that are not
open strings).
Incidentally, Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" covers many such
subjects in a very creative and fertile format; funny, entertaining and very
educational. Even philisophical at times, in a constructive way.
Post by D***@gmail.com
For instance c (2nd string 1st position), then c (3rd string, fifth
position), c (4th string, 10th position), c (1st string, 8th
position), c (6th string, 8th position). The important thing with
this exercise is not to memorize the pattern. Just set out with a
blank slate and try to play each note as quickly as possible. This
will help your site reading despite the fact that there are no notes
in front of you, and will also crystallize your ability to quickly
identify fingering strategies.
The ability do identify notes quickly and naturally will indeed help
sight-reading. Common sense would suggest that a method that proves functional
and relatively complete would probably serve the needs of aiding sight-reading
better than some half-baked exercise.
Unless you care to explain the specific methodology that led to the omission
of the c note on the 5th string 3rd fret then we are left with one obvious and
serious flaw in your exercise - with no specific logic in mind it leads to an
incomplete knowledge of the fretboard. The same could be suggested by your
comments regarding the "3 or 4 notes or more" - it suggests an incomplete
knowledge of the fretboard (more than suggests).
Anyone who performs the exercise I suggested for a few minutes daily for a few
weeks would find that in less that 3-4 seconds they can not only identify
where all 6 pitches are but they will also play them each twice (except the
outside string). That would suggest a definite and proven method of increasing
fretboard knowledge and reaction time. It would also crystallize your ability
to quickly identify fingering strategies.
In layman's terms, your arguements so far do not appear relevant, relatively
speaking. Do tell, how is your exercise more functional than Mr. Oakes and
why?
Post by D***@gmail.com
Because the GOAL of
this exercise for LEE and for me were to manouver the fretboard in a
unique way to the individual.
Which exercise is "this" exercise - Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the
second one stated as "another exercise"?
What is unique about the way your second exercise manouvers the fretboard?
Post by D***@gmail.com
This exercise isn't very useful for the
beginner, but for intermediates to advanced players it works well.
Lee's as yet unexplained exercise or the second one stated as "another
exercise"?
Scott- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I have been doing this sort of thing for months it is not very
efficient. It has to be coupled with actual sight reading practice in
order to be of any value at all. It does help you memorize the
fretboard.
Bob
Bob,

Approach the fretboard from ALL angles, every little snippet you can
get your hands on. I teach for the long run (not the short term).
This may sound silly to many of you here, but I recommend subscribing
to *guitar magazine*. Yes, I know lot's of stupid shit there, but
read the columns and PLAY each example. All your memories of these
little snippets are going to help you when the conducter suddenly
looks at you and tells you to improvise.

There's a penumbra of examples for you to look at. I wouldn't
recommend the silly (simpleton) examples one finds in soundboard, not
that subscribing to that wouldn't help you. But the point (esp from
this thread) is to *site read* in different contexts. In the long run
you'll be better off.

David
sycochkn
2007-03-29 02:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Incidentally, Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist" covers many such
subjects in a very creative and fertile format; funny, entertaining and very
educational. Even philisophical at times, in a constructive way.
Scott
I have tried to apply some of the things in Mick's book , sight
reading simple tunes on one string, scales and arpeggios. Tunes and
all possible variations of a scale in strict position. It opens up
many possibilites.

Bob
SleepyHead
2007-03-28 13:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
It's a failure of narcissicism and a failure of the mirror-stage. Thus we get...the dictatorship of relativism.
True. Notice that in my recent thread inviting people to state some
absolute, universal principles and rules of classical guitar pedagogy
and mastery, only one person made the attempt - and even he failed to
follow my directions to state the principles from which each rule
flowed. And so we see that even those who have yet to fully prostrate
themselves before this regime's throne have had their minds darkened.
If you think they exist why don't you try coming up with some of these
objective truths yourself and then submitting them to group discussion
instead of merely insisting that they exist? Surely you're not afraid
of doing some of your own work?
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
"I have my own learning style" is all the rage under the dictatorship
of relativism. This accords with this regime's customized, consumerist
approach to everything. In religion, we have buffet spirituality; in
education, self-esteem building and increasingly absurd, incoherent,
scattered curricula; in politics, incredibly, a man named Barack
Hussein Obama is actually a serious candidate for President of the
United States. This last is a testament to the allegedly exquisite
nonjudgmentalism of this regime and is fundamentally, of course,
narcissistic. Barack Hussein Obama's supporters, via their support,
celebrate not him, but themselves. "Don't you see?" they say, "I'm
very open-minded. You're not looking. Look at how open-minded I am!"
The consumerist categories of comfort and self-affirmation are at the
root of all of it. Perhaps we're beginning to see how Oprahism is an
essential part of the dictatorship of relativism.
There is no dictatorship of relativism. The only dictatorship round
here is the one that Ratzingless holds over your feeble mind. See - if
everyone agrees on something then that's not a /dictatorship/ is it?
Post by Jackson K. Eskew
"There is one thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost
every student entering the university believes, or says he believes,
that truth is relative....Relativism is necessary to openness, and
this is the virtue, the only virtue, which all primary education for
more than fifty years has dedicated itself to inculcating."
-Allan Bloom, The Closing of the American Mind
There is also one thing certain on Usenet - those who conclude with
quotes which attempt to prove their point are usually unable to prove
their point on their own and have to rely on others to shore up their
weak and insubstantial arguments.

As I said before - if you have such universal principles close at hand
please share your enormous knowledge with us.

And perhaps - just maybe - you might say something about sight-reading
and how to improve it (besides the current suggestions of "do lots"
and "do other related things too")?
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