Discussion:
Project Tarrega: Estudio in E minor
(too old to reply)
John Nguyen
2012-04-28 17:09:51 UTC
Permalink
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,

John



2cts
2012-04-28 17:14:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Great!
wollybird
2012-04-28 17:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
I used to play that- from a Liona Boyd book. I forgot all about it.
Liona Boyd turned it into a tremolo study. I think she went through a
period where she turned everything into a tremolo study:

She looks like Ruth Gordon from Harold and Maude in the video, but you
get the idea
Nice job. Maybe I'll dig it out
dsi1
2012-04-28 19:01:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by wollybird
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
I used to play that- from a Liona Boyd book. I forgot all about it.
Liona Boyd turned it into a tremolo study. I think she went through a
http://youtu.be/dApU0Nwk-Fw
She looks like Ruth Gordon from Harold and Maude in the video, but you
get the idea
Her man-hands are frighting to me. I think they're not using enough
gauze and Vaseline over the lens. :-)
Post by wollybird
Nice job. Maybe I'll dig it out
2cts
2012-04-28 20:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by wollybird
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
I used to play that- from a Liona Boyd book. I forgot all about it.
Liona Boyd turned it into a tremolo study. I think she went through a
http://youtu.be/dApU0Nwk-Fw
Her tremolo is awfully bad ;)
Douglas Seth
2012-04-28 17:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Thanks, John! I liked it! Humbly, a few words, I would work on melodic
shaping, tension/ release on non- chord tones to chord tones. The
appoggiaturas etc... Also I would try to delineate the parts by
bringing out the melody and using more of a "melodic tone" while
subordinating the other parts by using more of a static tone for the
inner voices. I always enjoy your playing. It is obvious the love you
put in it!
Matt Faunce
2012-04-28 19:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Thanks, John! I liked it! Humbly, a few words, I would work on melodic
shaping, tension/ release on non- chord tones to chord tones.
I'm trying to figure out what you had in mind, more specifically. I
tried playing the non-harmonic tones with a slight tenuto, and slightly
quieter. In context to everything else I did this sounded great. I don't
have the sheet music so I only tried it on the first phrase.
Post by Douglas Seth
The
appoggiaturas etc... Also I would try to delineate the parts by
bringing out the melody and using more of a "melodic tone" while
subordinating the other parts by using more of a static tone for the
inner voices.
The melodic tone. What can be said about that? I would say its opposite
is the snapped string tone. So, the melodic tone is where the attack is
closer to the loudness of the body of the tone. So more of an oblique
stroke on the string.

John, since you're playing near the soundhole, and over the soundhole
for parts, it's tricky to change tonal shades via changes in attack
there since the string is more easily activated as compared with sul
ponticello. It only takes a slight change in attack to yield a big
change in tone. I'd say keep doing what you're doing, but I think there
is really only one way to get closer to the goal of more control. I'll
just say from my experience that I'm never quite happy with my control
unless I've been playing several hours a day every day. I remember
seeing Rudolf Nureyev saying on video that he dances best when slightly
fatigued. I think this the same principle applies with control over
these right hand tonal shadings. A fresh hand is more volatile. So, the
trickiest area to have control over tonal shadings is over the
soundhole, plus it's harder to control the subtleties with a fresh hand.
Post by Douglas Seth
I always enjoy your playing. It is obvious the love you
put in it!
Agreed! John, I love how you went sul tasto on the repeats. You started
moving back to the normal position after four bars. I wondered how it
would've sounded if you stayed sul tasto for the complete eight bars of
the repeat. Try it if you haven't. Maybe you prefer the way you
transitioned back, but maybe you'll like the contrast more.
--
Matt
Douglas Seth
2012-04-28 19:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Douglas Seth
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Thanks, John! I liked it! Humbly, a few words, I would work on melodic
shaping, tension/ release on non- chord tones to chord tones.
I'm trying to figure out what you had in mind, more specifically. I
tried playing the non-harmonic tones with a slight tenuto, and slightly
quieter. In context to everything else I did this sounded great. I don't
have the sheet music so I only tried it on the first phrase.
Melodic shaping does sound great when it is done! I hear so many
players just ignore what the music is actually us, hell, begging us to
do. Everything we need to know is already in the music. Once you start
doing it, you'll notice it more and more and you won't be able to stop
doing it! For example, in the D7 chord, the g is the non chord tone/
4-3 sus/ appoggiatura resolving to f#. Using an agogic and/or dynamic
accent on g and playing f# softer will always sound great and should
always be done. I could go on and on about all of this....:)
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Douglas Seth
The
appoggiaturas etc... Also I would try to delineate the parts by
bringing out the melody and using more of a "melodic tone" while
subordinating the other parts by using more of a static tone for the
inner voices.
The melodic tone. What can be said about that? I would say its opposite
is the snapped string tone. So, the melodic tone is where the attack is
closer to the loudness of the body of the tone. So more of an oblique
stroke on the string.
Basically, what most people would describe as a "good" tone. Warm,
bell-like, distinct. For free stroke, rotating the forearm to the
right and pushing in on the string will help make this kind of tone.
Post by Matt Faunce
John, since you're playing near the soundhole, and over the soundhole
for parts, it's tricky to change tonal shades via changes in attack
there since the string is more easily activated as compared with sul
ponticello. It only takes a slight change in attack to yield a big
change in tone. I'd say keep doing what you're doing, but I think there
is really only one way to get closer to the goal of more control. I'll
just say from my experience that I'm never quite happy with my control
unless I've been playing several hours a day every day. I remember
seeing Rudolf Nureyev saying on video that he dances best when slightly
fatigued. I think this the same principle applies with control over
these right hand tonal shadings. A fresh hand is more volatile. So, the
trickiest area to have control over tonal shadings is over the
soundhole, plus it's harder to control the subtleties with a fresh hand.
Post by Douglas Seth
I always enjoy your playing. It is obvious the love you
put in it!
Agreed! John, I love how you went sul tasto on the repeats. You started
moving back to the normal position after four bars. I wondered how it
would've sounded if you stayed sul tasto for the complete eight bars of
the repeat. Try it if you haven't. Maybe you prefer the way you
transitioned back, but maybe you'll like the contrast more.
--
Matt
Matt Faunce
2012-04-28 21:23:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Douglas Seth
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Thanks, John! I liked it! Humbly, a few words, I would work on melodic
shaping, tension/ release on non- chord tones to chord tones.
I'm trying to figure out what you had in mind, more specifically. I
tried playing the non-harmonic tones with a slight tenuto, and slightly
quieter. In context to everything else I did this sounded great. I don't
have the sheet music so I only tried it on the first phrase.
Melodic shaping does sound great when it is done! I hear so many
players just ignore what the music is actually us, hell, begging us to
do. Everything we need to know is already in the music. Once you start
doing it, you'll notice it more and more and you won't be able to stop
doing it! For example, in the D7 chord, the g is the non chord tone/
4-3 sus/ appoggiatura resolving to f#.
I played the f# of the second chord tenuto (slightly longer) and
quieter, and the g of the B7 chord tenuto and quieter. I thought the
second chord was an Am. <shrug> Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to label
it. Add an e' to make it an Am, or a d' to make it a D7 (the ' means
above middle C). I think the d' changes the character more than the e.
As it stands, either way you look at it, both the g and the f# are
dissonant to something. The g is either the m7 of Am or the sus of D7.
The f# is either the 6th of Am or the 3rd of the D7 which begs to be
resolved to the root of G.
Post by Douglas Seth
Using an agogic and/or dynamic
accent on g and playing f# softer will always sound great and should
always be done. I could go on and on about all of this....:)
f# is also the end of the little phrase, so quieter... and when I played
it longer served the purpose of a rit.

What I meant by tenuto was slightly longer, this and quieter (or the
same if louder is expected) is like emphasizing but showing the
vulnerability of a note at the same time. It's a nice way to stress
something in a tender way. Try it on the g of the B7 chord.

Careful about that word "always." Listen to some Nancy Wilson (R&B/Jazz
singer). She broke the rules with such stunning musicality and dramatic
effect I'd say she redefined the rules. Of course, it takes a very good
sense of the rules before you can break them so effectively.
--
Matt
Slogoin
2012-04-28 22:20:21 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 28, 2:23 pm, Matt Faunce <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<shrug> Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to label

Try dim.
Matt Faunce
2012-04-29 01:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Faunce
<shrug> Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to label
 Try dim.
F# dim with 2-1 sus. I didn't think of that, but sure, that too. Of
course the ii to V functions the same as a iv to V, which functions
like a [V7 with suspended root] to its resolution (F# dim is the
basically suspension of the root of B7 (an F# half dim 7 can be
thought of as a double sus of the B7, i.e., a sus of the root and
third.)) And of course, a VII to V rounds out the forward motions to
the dominant. They're all tones--the g" and f#" are both still
dissonant notes--the labels are there to help us understand the
function. F# dim is probably what should be taught first, following
typical music ed. conventions.

(I didn't want some kid to think "Damn, Matt and Doug didn't see that
it was a diminished chord," as if that's what it is, end of story. No.
That's only the beginning of the traditional music educational story.
We all heard the same functions of the tones, (and the treatment of
the melody tones was the subject.) Doug labeled them "VII to V," I
labeled them "iv to V" and Larry labeled them "ii to V," which are
motions "down a third," "up a second," and "down a fifth"
respectively, and are all related motions, which goes to show we all
heard basically the same thing. My disagreement with Doug would be
over which implied tones to accept. My disagreement with Larry would
be over the merit of implied tones, especially for an improviser. But
really, there's no disagreement.)

Matt
Matt Faunce
2012-04-28 18:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Ain't that the truth. These so-called easy pieces really expose the
player's musical sensibilities--no fireworks to hide behind. You did a
nice job.
--
Matt
dsi1
2012-04-28 18:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
You should try his prelude in Am. That will blow your mind! You have to
manage two alternating voices. The idea and the piece sounds simple, but
it's hard to execute. Anyway, nice vids!
John Nguyen
2012-05-01 21:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
You should try his prelude in Am. That will blow your mind! You have to
manage two alternating voices. The idea and the piece sounds simple, but
it's hard to execute. Anyway, nice vids!
You meant the Prelude he wrote for Miguel Llobet? If that's the one,
it always threw me in a loop after hearing it. I got dizzy with the
two voices in my head.
Cheers,

John
dsi1
2012-05-01 22:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Post by dsi1
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
You should try his prelude in Am. That will blow your mind! You have to
manage two alternating voices. The idea and the piece sounds simple, but
it's hard to execute. Anyway, nice vids!
You meant the Prelude he wrote for Miguel Llobet? If that's the one,
it always threw me in a loop after hearing it. I got dizzy with the
two voices in my head.
Cheers,
John
Boy, I have no idea what's the story behind the piece. I must have cut
class the day they discussed that. Luckily, Youtube has any number of
really goofy looking guys playing that piece - one of them disturbingly
so. :-)

Anyway, the piece is played in a pensive and reflective manner. Whatever
you do, don't play it like this. After all, it ain't no gay romp with
Eva and Adolf at Berchtesgaden!:


John Nguyen
2012-05-01 22:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by John Nguyen
Post by dsi1
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
You should try his prelude in Am. That will blow your mind! You have to
manage two alternating voices. The idea and the piece sounds simple, but
it's hard to execute. Anyway, nice vids!
You meant the Prelude he wrote for Miguel Llobet? If that's the one,
it always threw me in a loop after hearing it. I got dizzy with the
two voices in my head.
Cheers,
John
Boy, I have no idea what's the story behind the piece. I must have cut
class the day they discussed that. Luckily, Youtube has any number of
really goofy looking guys playing that piece - one of them disturbingly
so. :-)
Anyway, the piece is played in a pensive and reflective manner. Whatever
you do, don't play it like this. After all, it ain't no gay romp with
http://youtu.be/tyApWCzQW54
That's the one. But the piece was played a little too metronomically
on youtube, though.
dsi1
2012-05-02 01:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Post by dsi1
Anyway, the piece is played in a pensive and reflective manner. Whatever
you do, don't play it like this. After all, it ain't no gay romp with
http://youtu.be/tyApWCzQW54
That's the one. But the piece was played a little too metronomically
on youtube, though.
It appears to be some kind of automated midi transcription but it's a
good illustration of why you have to hear the piece before you can begin
to play it correctly.
Slogoin
2012-04-28 23:10:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment.
This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Think simple. You are SUCH a romantic! ;-)

If I was teaching you this pieces I would have you improvise on the
progression. You play well enough to make it come off but are hearing
it as more complicated than it is. As Doug said, use the leans like
the g to f#. If you block out the chords and play the melody it's a
lot simpler. As my jazz teacher says, you are home, you go away then
you come back, that's all you can do. Even if you modulate you are
still holding home in your head if you are doing it right.

DISCLAIMER: I am prejudice and think jazz is not optional for any
serious guitarist who really wants to understand the fretboard and
hear the music that our ears have learned as "normal". CCP theory is
artificial but well worth learning to hear in that box, but ultimately
you can get more by studying the music you that your ears are hearing.
Our ears just do not hear in the CCP box because our musical
environment is full of broken rules.

Thanks for being so brave. I admire anybody who has the guts to post
their work for all us kookie critics. You and Miguel are doing great
and are sure to learn a lot.
Slogoin
2012-04-28 23:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
CCP theory is
A half dyslexic inversion of CPP or Common Practice Period... JEEEEZ!
JPD
2012-04-29 00:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Great touch, John.

But about the timing....

If you were to play just the melody, would you use that "one, two,
threeeeee" timing, with the 3rd beat stretched out or paused every
time?

Try it!
Matt Faunce
2012-04-29 02:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by JPD
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Great touch, John.
But about the timing....
If you were to play just the melody, would you use that "one, two,
threeeeee" timing, with the 3rd beat stretched out or paused every
time?
Try it!
I agree with the suggestion, but I do understand the justification for
the rit at the end of every motive. He's phrasing the motive like it's a
phrase. Well, a motive is a phrase. Plus the harmonic changes are in
sync with the melodic motive, so it's not fair to expect him to phrase
it like the harmony isn't there, because it is there. But your point is
still good, just not if taken to the extreme.

I'd prefer to keep those ritards, but so that they're so barely
perceptible that the audience will feel them without noticing them. That
concept is a general rule I try to follow. And you've gotta do it
blatantly before you can do it with such subtlety that it's felt without
notice.
--
Matt
David Raleigh Arnold
2012-04-29 15:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by JPD
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-) Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Great touch, John.
But about the timing....
If you were to play just the melody, would you use that "one, two,
threeeeee" timing, with the 3rd beat stretched out or paused every time?
Try it!
I couldn't have put it better. I fact, I couldn't have
put it nearly as well. Regards, daveA
--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: ***@gmail.com
Contact: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html"
JPD
2012-04-29 23:32:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by JPD
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-) Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Great touch, John.
But about the timing....
If you were to play just the melody, would you use that "one, two,
threeeeee" timing, with the 3rd beat stretched out or paused every time?
Try it!
I couldn't have put it better. I fact, I couldn't have
put it nearly as well. Regards, daveA
--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Contact:http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html"
Well thank you, Dave. Nothing like plain English, eh?
JonLorPro
2012-04-29 04:39:53 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 28, 1:09 pm, John Nguyen <***@gmail.com> wrote:
.>
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
You're doing good things with it. You've had plenty of input from
others to consider for interpretive furtherance, so I'll just make
some technical sugestions:

You're using the preparatory left hand fingering I would suggest in
measures two and six, with your 4th finger retracted for the F#
instead of using your 3rd, so 4 is ready to slide to the A in the next
measure with 3 left free to prepare for the second string D#.
Nevertheless, you seem consistently to have difficulty in getting the
getting the bar in measures three and seven properly seated in time to
get a clear third string A on the first beat, though it's clear on the
second. From what can be seen, it looks as though in the expansion
from the compressed position the rotation of your hand position
outwards is just short of a sufficiency to get your first finger
flattened, and parallel to the fret. It also looks as though you are
waiting until after you have played the A in the next measure to place
your 3rd finger on the D#, the very next note, which is slowing you
down. Try being more assiduous in this rotation and expansion, and
slide the 3rd finger into place along with your 4th. Also, relax into
the configuration more; often people have trouble with barred chords
which encompass the full four contiguous frets of a position because
there is an inward directed tension as though the chord configuration
is something they're trying to surround with their hand to grasp-
approach it from outside its perimeter, so to speak- instead of
expressing the energy of their hand outwards against the surface of
the fingerboard. One useful image to get this is to imagine you're
trying to stretch an invisible film thats wrapped around your hand.

An alternative fingering would be to use your 2nd and 3rd fingers
instead of your 1st and 2nd in measures two and six. This might seem
anti-intuitive, because it actually increases slightly the distance
your hand then has to move, plus your 3rd finger has to jump from one
string to the next. But, there is considerable payoff. It relieves
the close juxtaposition of the compressed and expanded configurations,
and leaves the 1st finger free to be held in an attitude of pre-
preparation to be placed in a bar. Give it a shot.

Similar considerations apply to measure 11. I know it seems to make
sense to use your 3rd finger for the A on the first two beats, because
for the first two beats you have the same three fingers on the same
three strings as they will be in the configurationyou slide to on the
third beat. But, in making the slide, you have to decompress as you
go, accurately expanding the 3rd and 4th away from the 1st while
moving all inthe same direction. You're handling it well, but I seem
to be _aware_ that you're having to be careful to handle it well- that
the expansion in time is a bit of, to use Segovia's wry term, "rubato
obligatto." Try instead to use your 2nd and 3rd fingers instead of
your 3rd and 4th on the first beat. Use your 4th for the G on the
second beat, but as you place it, release with 3 and move it over to
above the third string. The advantage is that now the 1st, 3rd, and
4th fingers are in the same relative configuration to each other as
they wil be on the third beat, even though 3 is not actually placed on
the string yet. There is no adjustment necessary as you slide into
place while setting the 3rd finger down. Here, the lessening of the
actual distance your hand has to travel is an advantage.

You can also move your 1st finger a split second sooner off the third
beat D to travel over to the sixth string for the low G. So long as
it doesn't leave the D before the last note, the C, is sounded, it
won't sound cut short. Imagine you're moving it on the last 16th of
the measure. This is an example of not letting musical patterns (in
this case, the harmonic rhythm) unduly dictate your technical
patterns, or timing of them.

In your right hand, it sounds as though you are using all free stroke
with your A finger, thougn it's hard to verify that by watching the
video. Whether you're using rest strokes, a judicious mixture of rest
and free strokes, or trying to develop a sans rest stroke technique,
see if you can increase the differentiation of tone and solidity
between the melody and the accompanying notes.

If you were to pick up the tempo some, you would then have greater
latitude to contrast on repeats with a greater expansiveness in tempo
variation- plus you cold throw in a couple of ornaments.

Okay, so I wound up talking about interpretation. So, for laughs or
kicks, try playing an F natural instead of an F# in measure 14, the
third to last measure, and see how you like it.
Slogoin
2012-04-29 11:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
Okay, so I wound up talking about interpretation. So, for laughs or
kicks, try playing an F natural instead of an F# in measure 14, the
third to last measure, and see how you like it.
Very cool! I did not even think of that but it works so well, plus
I can hear the freakin' CG nannies waking up from their stupor.
2cts
2012-04-29 12:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
Post by JonLorPro
Okay, so I wound up talking about interpretation. So, for laughs or
kicks, try playing an F natural instead of an F# in measure 14, the
third to last measure, and see how you like it.
Very cool! I did not even think of that but it works so well,
plus
I can hear the freakin' CG nannies waking up from their stupor.
Nah... In the upcoming golden opera era this chord (in minor keys) was
the (inevitalble) master template for the expressing the maximum of
sorrow, pain and grief and (there) it is called the Neapolitan chord,
cp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord
Slogoin
2012-04-29 12:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2cts
Nah... In the upcoming golden opera era this chord (in minor keys) was
the (inevitalble) master template for the expressing the maximum of
sorrow, pain and grief and (there) it is called the Neapolitan chord,
cp.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord
That's why the CG nannies would wake up. Many do not really know
what they are doing so they would only hear the change from what they
teach and hear a "wrong" note with the impulse to "correct" the
student, but... then, what...?

I love it because they often teach on automatic and with a dogma
that says you don't change what the composer wrote, cognitive
dissonance ensues. I'd like to have a student do it just to see that
look on their faces hear what they say afterward.
2cts
2012-04-29 12:49:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
Post by 2cts
Nah... In the upcoming golden opera era this chord (in minor keys) was
the (inevitalble) master template for the expressing the maximum of
sorrow, pain and grief and (there) it is called the Neapolitan chord,
cp.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord
That's why the CG nannies would wake up. Many do not really know
what they are doing so they would only hear the change from what they
teach and hear a "wrong" note with the impulse to "correct" the
student, but... then, what...?
I love it because they often teach on automatic and with a dogma
that says you don't change what the composer wrote, cognitive
dissonance ensues.
I don't hear/percept that as dissonance (anymore?).
Post by Slogoin
I'd like to have a student do it just to see that
look on their faces hear what they say afterward.
I would like to add the following from the german site
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitanischer_Sextakkord

in my kind of kraut "Translation":

Normal use was as replacement from the scheme t-s-D-t (i.e. minor alone) ...

First (known) use was in the oratorio Jephte
(who promised to sacrifice=KILL the FIRST that comes by his
house, unsuspecting this would be his daughter)
by Carissimi in the year 1645 ...

The actual golden age of the chord was during Baroque (Bach, Händel,
and First Viennese School (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven)...

Later, in the Romantic music, the chord was used also in major keys...
Slogoin
2012-04-29 12:53:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2cts
I don't hear/percept that as dissonance (anymore?).
That was a pun, a bad one, sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

It does not apply to those who know what they are doing, just the
pretenders.
2cts
2012-04-29 13:09:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
Post by 2cts
I don't hear/percept that as dissonance (anymore?).
That was a pun, a bad one, sorry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
It does not apply to those who know what they are doing, just the
pretenders.
OK - on the other hand do I "still" hear/perceive a 4th (starting
on "up beat") as the a/the main dissonance in a tonal frame...

Perhaps is music more than just (wiki/Cognitive_dissonance:)
"ideas, beliefs, values, emotional reactions" - may be because
musical interval percecption is kind of "physical" as one neither
needs to train nor can "avoid to understand" e.g. the octave,
which represents the division of a string or a frequency by 1/2,
etc. as some "theory" states...
2cts
2012-04-29 17:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2cts
First (known) use was in the oratorio Jephte
by Carissimi in the year 1645 ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jephthah

On behalf of Israel as a whole and in reliance on the might of God
the Judge, Jephthah challenges the Ammonites. Jephthah swears an oath:
"Whatever/whoever emerges and comes out of the doors of my house to
meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely
be God’s, and I shall sacrifice him/her/it as a burnt offering."[1]

... The victorious Jephthah is met on his return by his daughter, his
only child. Jephthah tears his clothes and cries, "Alas, my daughter!
You have brought me very low!" but is bound by his vow: "I have given
my word to God, and I cannot go back on it." (Judges 11:35). The girl
asks for two months' grace, "... that I may go down on the mountains ...
and bewail my virginity" (Judges 11:37). And so Jephthah "carried out
his vow with her which he had vowed" (Judges 11:39). The story ends by
recounting how "the daughters of Israel went four days each year to
celebrate about[2] the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite" (Judges 11:40).
Post by 2cts
The actual golden age of the chord was during Baroque
(Bach,
Johann Sebastian Bach: Passacaglia c-Moll, BWV 582, Fermate
in the 8th last measure.
Post by 2cts
Händel,
and First Viennese School (Haydn, Mozart,
Beethoven
Ludwig van Beethoven: Moonlight Sonata op. 27/2, 3rd measure

)...
Post by 2cts
Later, in the Romantic music, the chord was used also in major keys...
JonLorPro
2012-04-29 14:42:18 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 29, 8:02 am, 2cts <***@from.gov> wrote:
.>
Post by 2cts
Nah... In the upcoming golden opera era this chord (in minor keys) was
the (inevitalble) master template for the expressing the maximum of
sorrow, pain and grief and (there) it is called the Neapolitan chord,
cp.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord
Yeah, it's a Neopolitan. That's the name generally used now, and
though the name may be tracable to an operatic milieu, the chord was
in general use before the name. One use of it very familiar to all of
us here is in the middle of Sor's Op.35, No.22 in Bm, theSegovia V.
It's worth noting in light of your comment that Sor, of course, was an
opera composer. It's a bit compressed in usage where I suggested it in
the Tarrega, but that's what I kept half expecting to hear (even
though I knew it wasn't there) in approaching the spot.
2cts
2012-04-29 15:37:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
.>
Post by 2cts
Nah... In the upcoming golden opera era this chord (in minor keys) was
the (inevitalble) master template for the expressing the maximum of
sorrow, pain and grief and (there) it is called the Neapolitan chord,
cp.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord
Yeah, it's a Neopolitan. That's the name generally used now, and
though the name may be tracable to an operatic milieu, the chord was
in general use before the name.
Of course - the basso continuo logic uses everything!
Post by JonLorPro
One use of it very familiar to all of
us here is in the middle of Sor's Op.35, No.22 in Bm, theSegovia V.
It's worth noting in light of your comment that Sor, of course, was an
opera composer. It's a bit compressed in usage where I suggested it in
the Tarrega, but that's what I kept half expecting to hear (even
though I knew it wasn't there) in approaching the spot.
Yes - I heard the chord billions of time because I played everyday

Carcassi Op.60 no 7

http://www.free-scores.com/PDF_EN/carcassi-matteo-op-60-etude-no-7-34936.pdf

In measure 21 there is the Napolitan in full beaty - two times in a row...
Horst Hase
2012-04-29 16:24:21 UTC
Permalink
Typo again, and I am compulsive enough to correct it down below ;)
Post by 2cts
Yes - I heard the chord billions of time because I played everyday
Carcassi Op.60 no 7
http://www.free-scores.com/PDF_EN/carcassi-matteo-op-60-etude-no-7-34936.pdf
In measure 21 there is the Napolitan in
full
beauty
Post by 2cts
- two times in a row...
2cts
2012-04-29 16:25:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 17:37:55 +0200, 2cts wrote:

Typo again, and I am compulsive enough to correct it down below ;)
Post by 2cts
Yes - I heard the chord billions of time because I played everyday
Carcassi Op.60 no 7
http://www.free-scores.com/PDF_EN/carcassi-matteo-op-60-etude-no-7-34936.pdf
In measure 21 there is the Napolitan in
full
beauty
Post by 2cts
- two times in a row...
2cts
2012-04-29 16:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Jesus Mariah - the Napolitan is in measure 22!
Post by 2cts
Yes - I heard the chord billions of time because I played everyday
Carcassi Op.60 no 7
http://www.free-scores.com/PDF_EN/carcassi-matteo-op-60-etude-no-7-34936.pdf
In
measure 22
Post by 2cts
there is the Napolitan in
full
beauty
Post by 2cts
- two times in a row...
JonLorPro
2012-04-29 16:48:07 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 29, 11:37 am, 2cts <***@from.gov> wrote:

.>
Post by 2cts
Yeah, it's a Neopolitan.... (etc).
Carcassi Op.60 no 7
http://www.free-scores.com/PDF_EN/carcassi-matteo-op-60-etude-no-7-34...
In measure 21 there is the Napolitan in full beaty - two times in a row...
Yep- I always thought of that spot as the "Cut 'em off at the pass!"
music (I gather you are German- just in case you don't get the
cultural reference, that is an allusion to American early television
cowboy/western show cllches, the music for which was often heavily
informed by 19th century melodrama.
2cts
2012-04-29 17:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2cts
Post by 2cts
Yeah, it's a Neopolitan.... (etc).
Carcassi Op.60 no 7
http://www.free-scores.com/PDF_EN/carcassi-matteo-op-60-etude-no-7-34...
In measure
22
Post by 2cts
there is the Napolitan in full beaty - two times in a row...
Yep- I always thought of that spot as the "Cut 'em off at the pass!"
music
LOL. (I added this statement only when I were finishing reading all text.)
Post by 2cts
(I gather you are German-
Yes.
Post by 2cts
just in case you don't get the cultural reference,
Yah, this is VERY important for me because most of the time I am unable
to understand non-CG themes due to the cultural reference you mention
and due to the "special" language...
Post by 2cts
that is an allusion to American early television cowboy/western
show cllches, the music for which was often heavily
informed by 19th century melodrama.
In old europe they like to view a lot of western movies and movie music;
especially old or early movie music and animated cartoon (!) is rather
often like some "revelation" as there rather often great music writers
were in action.
Cactus Wren
2012-04-29 05:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Thanks for the upload, John. Solid playing as always. Segovia said he
would burnish and polish phrases for many hours.
John Nguyen
2012-04-29 15:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Wow!! Thanks to all the comments, gents!!! I'll try to retake this
piece with all the the suggestions if I could.

JonLorPro,

I appreciate the precise dagnostics on the B7 chord with the
problematic A there - right on the money. I tried your suggestion last
night and it worked, dang!! The suggested F natural in measure 14 is a
nice harmonic twist. I believe Mozart did that in some of his piano
sonata as well. It seems to nudge you off guard and yank you back :-)
Cheers,

John
Fadosolrélamisi
2012-04-29 16:16:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
I think it's JPD or Stanley Yates (and I am sure many other guitarists think that too) who say that there is no easy pieces on the guitar! Your interpretation sounds good! (And as the Tarrega project will go on I'm sure there will be many other good one to come). I do not know for you, but me, as soon as I put a recording on ... I realize that ... ho-ho ... there is more work to be done! I think you got this one right though and on just on the edge of the freshness side.(not overly worked) ... If I had to give an advice, it would be just to watch out for the inner a in the B7 Barré.

Alain
Guitarzan
2012-05-01 21:36:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
I think that might be the next piece I learn....... very nice playing
John.
John Nguyen
2012-05-01 22:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guitarzan
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
I think that might be the next piece I learn....... very nice playing
John.
Thanks, Michael!
Learnwell
2012-05-02 02:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Why not try using rest stroke for the a finger? Brings out the melody.
John Nguyen
2012-05-02 03:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Learnwell
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Why not try using rest stroke for the a finger? Brings out the melody.
Good point, thanks! I happen to play both, but not on this video. I'll
try the next time.
Cheers,

John
dsi1
2012-05-03 22:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Post by Learnwell
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Why not try using rest stroke for the a finger? Brings out the melody.
Good point, thanks! I happen to play both, but not on this video. I'll
try the next time.
Cheers,
John
It's surprising to me that the rest stroke could be considered a
specialty stroke. The classical players that I heard when I was starting
out always had a mushy, colorless, sound. They simply lacked projection.
I always tried to avoid sounding like that. A rest stroke is important
if you want to project and not sound all mushy. If you play Spanish
music, you're going to have to have your rest stroke chops down. Well,
that's the way I figure it anyway.
Cactus Wren
2012-05-03 22:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by John Nguyen
Post by Learnwell
Post by John Nguyen
Here goes the second installment. This piece is so simple to play but
so hard to play it well. Oh well, what the heck! :-)
Cheers,
John
http://youtu.be/EX90Y2wFy3w
Why not try using rest stroke for the a finger? Brings out the melody.
Good point, thanks! I happen to play both, but not on this video. I'll
try the next time.
Cheers,
John
It's surprising to me that the rest stroke could be considered a
specialty stroke. The classical players that I heard when I was starting
out always had a mushy, colorless, sound. They simply lacked projection.
I always tried to avoid sounding like that. A rest stroke is important
if you want to project and not sound all mushy. If you play Spanish
music, you're going to have to have your rest stroke chops down. Well,
that's the way I figure it anyway.
I was reading Kincaidiana, a book for flute players, and it talked
about "intensity". He defines intensity as having a high harmonic
content. I think he means that if you add up the overtones in the
note, that the average should be high (almost like how compression
works). So if you want to have a non-mushy sound, you probably want
to balance those overtones, by where and how you attack the string, to
get a high harmonic content. Does that make any sense?
dsi1
2012-05-03 23:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cactus Wren
I was reading Kincaidiana, a book for flute players, and it talked
about "intensity". He defines intensity as having a high harmonic
content. I think he means that if you add up the overtones in the
note, that the average should be high (almost like how compression
works). So if you want to have a non-mushy sound, you probably want
to balance those overtones, by where and how you attack the string, to
get a high harmonic content. Does that make any sense?
It's probably different for flutes. My guess is that a moderately driven
note will be the most pure sound i.e., not having a lot of overtones.
The flute is probably the only instrument capable of doing this. As far
as sounds goes, it's sine wave-like tone is not found in nature or other
musical instruments other than electronic ones.

My guess is that you could introduce harmonics into the mix by blowing
harder and creating turbulence in the airflow. Obviously, there's other
tricks to introduce character into the sound that some flautists would
know. That percussive, breathy, sound was the style popular with the
rock/jazz flute players in the 60s/70s.

As far as the rest stroke goes, it gets it power from a loud attack that
rapidly diminishes which give you a melody line that just pops. I think
the tone tends to be more fundamental in makeup than a lightly played
note.
Andrew Schulman
2012-05-04 01:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
As far as the rest stroke goes, it gets it power from a loud attack that
rapidly diminishes which give you a melody line that just pops. I think
the tone tends to be more fundamental in makeup than a lightly played
note.
David, why don't you do yourself a favor and buy an O-Port?

Andrew
dsi1
2012-05-04 10:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by dsi1
As far as the rest stroke goes, it gets it power from a loud attack that
rapidly diminishes which give you a melody line that just pops. I think
the tone tends to be more fundamental in makeup than a lightly played
note.
David, why don't you do yourself a favor and buy an O-Port?
Andrew
I already got one. When I would play it, light emitted from my finger
tips and there was a distinct smell of violets in the room. Sometimes it
allowed me to channel the dead. I would buy another one but I fear that
it may make me immortal. It's on a guitar in a case safely stored away
in a secret location. YMMV

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