Discussion:
Study # 2 - HVL - What would be the best RH pattern
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Fadosolrélamisi
2013-09-13 14:44:29 UTC
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for the first arppegio? Any suggestions? (Beside the one offered by Carlavero in his analysis of the 12? I like his LH suggestion for the first arppegio).
Slogoin
2013-09-13 15:16:50 UTC
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Post by Fadosolrélamisi
for the first arppegio? Any suggestions?
The A major chord... what is you LH doing...

It's a great study for longitudinal arpps but it's also one that has many fingerings. My approach was to work it all out on my own then look at what others did and take what I liked. I slur the bottom a to c and use the guide finger on the 2nd string from c# to a then reverse back down but slurring the top notes. Denis takes about this slur phrasing in the "real" teaching video. The RH is ppima... on many of the arps including this one. I don't worry about the rest of the RH much but I did work every one out a long time ago so that it worked with the LH, they really are tied together in this study with different LH fingering requiring changes in the RH.
Fadosolrélamisi
2013-09-13 23:51:31 UTC
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Post by Slogoin
Post by Fadosolrélamisi
for the first arppegio? Any suggestions?
The A major chord... what is you LH doing...
It's a great study for longitudinal arpps but it's also one that has many fingerings. My approach was to work it all out on my own then look at what others did and take what I liked. I slur the bottom a to c and use the guide finger on the 2nd string from c# to a then reverse back down but slurring the top notes. Denis takes about this slur phrasing in the "real" teaching video. The RH is ppima... on many of the arps including this one. I don't worry about the rest of the RH much but I did work every one out a long time ago so that it worked with the LH, they really are tied together in this study with different LH fingering requiring changes in the RH.
Yes the A major chord, the first arppegio [;o)

For the LH what Carlavero offers for the first arppegio in his book analyzing the 12 Etudes fits well (He even includes an exercise to practice the shift).
The PPima is indeed the logical choice for the start if one is to play the bottom slur (which is the securest choice to make).
The study # 1 is very easy to map out ... the # 2 not so, as there are more choice to make for the slurs, LH fingering and RH fingerings (very few spots where one can use the same RH fingering sequence - the first sequence, to repeat the same RH fingering comes at the A major to A minor - Measures 5 and 6 and later ... on page 2 measures 6,7,8 of the Eschig edition) ...

So now we do have a start! [;o) P-Pima ... Carlevaro offers for the subsequent sequences of this first measure (the dash is a slur) ima-ma mimi)

Measure 1 for now we have

P-pi maim a-ma mimi

Anyone has a better take on this RH fingering? (This is a study with an Allegro marking!)

For example, I have seen this one :

P-Pi maim i-ma mipp
Slogoin
2013-09-14 01:45:30 UTC
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Post by Fadosolrélamisi
So now we do have a start!
P-pi maim a-ma mimi
P-Pi maim i-ma mipp
Or a combo. If you work out the LH I think the RH is easy enough that many patterns will work well. What I look at is the LH choices and slur patterns like leaning slurs at the bottom and top of gestures, something bowed strings do without thinking but missing from some CG players who think timing is about quantizing the notes to the 16th note.
Fadosolrélamisi
2013-09-14 03:16:04 UTC
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Post by Slogoin
Post by Fadosolrélamisi
So now we do have a start!
P-pi maim a-ma mimi
P-Pi maim i-ma mipp
Or a combo. If you work out the LH I think the RH is easy enough that many patterns will work well. What I look at is the LH choices and slur patterns like leaning slurs at the bottom and top of gestures, something bowed strings do without thinking but missing from some CG players who think timing is about quantizing the notes to the 16th note.
Isn't what HVL intent is with his slurs indications (well in the Eshig score anywhoo) ... I mean the bowed strg thing?
What i'd like to see generated by this discussion is a friendly version (read most easy one) from which one can extrapolate and explore the finger board.
Like the second Mm, the E7 (V of I) can be played with the bottom slur as is but i doubt that many players would go for it even if it's written ... I would imagine that a slur between the open D and E would be more friendly.
What do you think?
Slogoin
2013-09-14 10:17:38 UTC
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Post by Fadosolrélamisi
Isn't what HVL intent is with his slurs indications
(well in the Eshig score anywhoo) ... I mean the bowed strg thing?
IMO, yes.
Post by Fadosolrélamisi
Like the second Mm, the E7 (V of I) can be played with the bottom slur
as is but i doubt that many players would go for it even if it's written ... I would imagine that a > slur between the open D and E would be more friendly.
What do you think?
Sure, but the gesture must be as if you did slur it. The top and bottom form a pattern over the other notes like in #1 but this time with the other kind of arp that is a developmental marker for the more advanced student. Many can do #1 with the swelling effect and drive to beat one but #2 is not so easy to make it flow because the pattern is constantly changing. If you have fast long ami scales under your hands this study is going to be much easier for you than those who are trying to acquire those skills while working on this study.
Che
2013-09-14 15:24:30 UTC
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If you have fast long ami scales under your hands this study is going to be much easier for you than those who are trying to acquire those skills while working on this study.<
IF . . . a conditional statement. Is that a definite "IF" Mr. Larry, the Guitar Guy? If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

If "ifs" and "ands" were pots and pans, there'd be no work for tinkers' hands.

Now, repeat after me: No ifs, ands, or buts.

Larry, the Guitar Guy, parsing your advice . . .you said nothing.
Fadosolrélamisi
2013-09-14 16:19:51 UTC
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Post by Slogoin
Post by Fadosolrélamisi
Isn't what HVL intent is with his slurs indications
(well in the Eshig score anywhoo) ... I mean the bowed strg thing?
IMO, yes.
Post by Fadosolrélamisi
Like the second Mm, the E7 (V of I) can be played with the bottom slur
as is but i doubt that many players would go for it even if it's written ... I would imagine that a > slur between the open D and E would be more friendly.
What do you think?
Sure, but the gesture must be as if you did slur it. The top and bottom form a pattern over the other notes like in #1 but this time with the other kind of arp that is a developmental marker for the more advanced student. Many can do #1 with the swelling effect and drive to beat one but #2 is not so easy to make it flow because the pattern is constantly changing. If you have fast long ami scales under your hands this study is going to be much easier for you than those who are trying to acquire those skills while working on this study.
yes ... I think every single measure becomes a study on it's own with its own sets of technical difficulties! And especially for this study one needs to practice the transition between on mm to the next. it's an excellent warm up study.
Che
2013-09-14 16:31:38 UTC
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What do you think?<
yes ... I think<
Let the 12 year old Katie Cho "thunk" it for you!


Fadosolrélamisi
2013-09-14 16:49:30 UTC
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Post by Che
What do you think?<
yes ... I think<
Let the 12 year old Katie Cho "thunk" it for you!
http://youtu.be/aWRip9sn4F4
"Man I feel insignificant!"
Curmudgeon
2013-09-14 21:53:27 UTC
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Post by Fadosolrélamisi
Post by Che
What do you think?<
yes ... I think<
Let the 12 year old Katie Cho "thunk" it for you!
http://youtu.be/aWRip9sn4F4
"Man I feel insignificant!"
My opinion FWIW - there is such a thing as talent. This girl can't have been playing for more than a few years, and regardless of training, her ability speaks for itself.
Learnwell
2013-09-14 22:10:41 UTC
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Post by Curmudgeon
My opinion FWIW - there is such a thing as talent. This girl can't have been playing for more than a few years,
That is quite an assumption on which to base such a significant judgment. It is in these little intellectual areas that the myth of talent foments. Your assumptions seem very reasonable to most, but do you have any real way to know this? Please don't mistake this as an attack on your intellect, but give the facts a little thought.
Post by Curmudgeon
and regardless of training, her ability speaks for itself.
She is playing it at about 108 on the metronome. Kevin posted one of his kids playing it at about 120. Professionals are currently pushing 160 and beyond. Which represents the upper limit of talent? Why could almost nobody do it 40 years ago? Where was their talent?
Slogoin
2013-09-15 00:28:30 UTC
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Post by Learnwell
Why could almost nobody do it 40 years ago? Where was their talent?
When I was born there were 3 billion and now there are more than double that. More now have access to CG thanks to mass production that was not there when I was born. Recently things have gone even faster. It's really not a good thing to look at anything in the future as a linear extrapolation of the past.

In more remote places like where I am I can tell you that they have NEVER had any CG teacher, but the Internet is changing that and getting an eighty dollar Chinese CG on a remote island is something new to this globe. Strings are still in demand but unlike where you are there are no other CG teachers, no violin teachers, no piano teachers... but plenty talent, mon , plenty talent! They can do stuff you and I CANNOT do too...
Che
2013-09-15 00:35:12 UTC
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Post by Curmudgeon
My opinion FWIW - there is such a thing as talent. This girl can't have been playing for more than a few years,
That is quite an assumption on which to base such a significant judgment. It is in these little intellectual areas that the myth of talent foments. Your assumptions seem very reasonable to most, but do you have any real way to know this? Please don't mistake this as an attack on your intellect, but give the facts a little thought.<
Where are your facts, evidence, informations,and particulars ? You have asserted it's his "assumption and significant judgment."
She is playing it at about 108 on the metronome. Kevin posted one of his kids playing it at about 120. Professionals are currently pushing 160 and beyond.<
She's 12 years old!!!! At 12 years old you were still chasing popsicle trucks. She most likely CAN play it much faster but elects to play it within her total control. She also plays better than any of your students!!!
Why could almost nobody do it 40 years ago? Where was their talent?<
40 years ago there were but a handful of "Professionals" (your word) and look at what they recorded, Milan Pavans, Dowland, V-L Etude #1, Gasper Sanz, Bach, and little doo-dads except for Bream and Segovia.
In large part Americans didn't have a clue other than what they found at the record store or was mentioned in Guitar Review.

What kids were doing on bikes, motorcycles and skateboards was nothing compared to what's being done today. . .absolutely nothing!

40 years ago was 1973 we had the Senate Watergate Committee was on tv everyday, we had Wounded Knee in South Dakota,
the town of Antelope, California blew up and ceased to exist, the war in Vietnam ended, Secretariat won the trifecta, and Argentine Peronist Hector Campora became president in their Dirty Little War.

All of that may mean less than nothing to you but this will. The next time you fill up (if you can afford it) your car with gas remember, it was 40 years ago we had the first oil crisis. Gas went to 40 cents a gallon, when you COULD buy it!!!

http://www.businessinsider.com/gas-signs-1970s-2011-8?op=1

40 years ago the Villa-Lobos Etudes were a big deal and everyone (who was anyone) studied them after the 20 studies by Sor (Segovia Green book.) Since I was sick of hearing everyone's V-L studies and why I recall all this so well is it was in 1973, 40 years ago, I first began the Francisco Mignone "Twelve Etudes for Guitar" Etude # 2 which is twice as long and interesting, imo, as V-L etude 2...if you've got the velocity, is nothing but a rush. If you want something to lay back and play Mignone etudes 2 and 5 will do it.

Where is the talent for these studies first published in 1970? Still stuck in Villa-Lobos. Haven't we heard just about enough of them yet? Get real, it's 12 year old student fodder these days if you've got the skills, talent, know how, CAN make yourself work and have the wit to find resources to allow you the time and freedom for ART. In the future it will be the trust fund kids who can afford to seriously study the CG, or fritter away their day's and night's as they please.

Think of that EVERY time you fill up the tank, Little Buckaroo.
Curmudgeon
2013-09-15 13:38:31 UTC
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Post by C