Discussion:
right index finger problem
(too old to reply)
y***@att.com
2009-05-01 14:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
t***@lycos.com
2009-05-01 14:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
Maybe it's Allzimers. Maybe you have to relearn everything because you
are losing your memory.

Troy Donaghue III
arys
2009-05-01 14:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
Try practicing index finger -heavy rasgueado patterns.

-MK
arys
2009-05-01 15:30:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by arys
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
Try practicing index finger -heavy rasgueado patterns.
-MK
With the rationale that maybe that would loosen it up.

-MK
y***@att.com
2009-05-01 15:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by arys
Post by arys
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
Try practicing index finger -heavy rasgueado patterns.
-MK
With the rationale that maybe that would loosen it up.
-MK
Very funny Troy - it's a serious problem for me ... Practicing just
makes it worse ...
t***@lycos.com
2009-05-01 21:56:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Post by arys
Post by arys
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
Try practicing index finger -heavy rasgueado patterns.
-MK
With the rationale that maybe that would loosen it up.
-MK
Very funny Troy - it's a serious problem for me ... Practicing just
makes it worse ...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Are you saying that Alzimers is not a serious problem. If practicing
is giving you pain, congratulations! That means it's working. No pain
no gain!

Troy Donaghue III
socrates
2009-05-01 16:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
I would quit for awhile if you can. Don't do index finger -heavy
rasgueado patterns (sorry arys). It's quite possibly just stressed
out. Give it a month and approach again with the least amount of
tension.
y***@att.com
2009-05-01 17:16:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
I would quit for awhile if you can.  Don't do index finger -heavy
rasgueado patterns (sorry arys).  It's quite possibly just stressed
out.  Give it a month and approach again with the least amount of
tension.
This approach didn't work. Had 3 weeks vacation and it was pretty
difficult to get back in "playing" shape. Problem didn't go away.
d***@gmail.com
2009-05-01 17:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
I would quit for awhile if you can.  Don't do index finger -heavy
rasgueado patterns (sorry arys).  It's quite possibly just stressed
out.  Give it a month and approach again with the least amount of
tension.
This approach didn't work. Had 3 weeks vacation and it was pretty
difficult to get back in "playing" shape. Problem didn't go away.
I just have to ask, have you had a Swine Flu vaccination recently?
Tashi
catpandaddy
2009-05-01 18:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
I would quit for awhile if you can. Don't do index finger -heavy
rasgueado patterns (sorry arys). It's quite possibly just stressed
out. Give it a month and approach again with the least amount of
tension.
This approach didn't work. Had 3 weeks vacation and it was pretty
difficult to get back in "playing" shape. Problem didn't go away.
I wish I had more to add, but after taking that much time off, especially
with the existing problem, you need to rehab your practice by forcing
yourself to play slow and precise and deliberate. I discovered the same
thing with my typing. I got worse and worse until I got my ego under
control enough to force myself to forget everything except slow precision
with lots of breaks inbetween to avoid overstressing and to allow muscle
memory to do its work, which a surprising amount of happens during resting
periods.
Lutemann
2009-05-01 18:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
I can't tell what you are doing unless I see it. The most common
causes of right hand problems is a lack of coordintation of joints-
joints flex together and release together- and not using natural
release. Having said that, it could be anything. Put something up on
youtube and we'll all take a look.
y***@att.com
2009-05-03 01:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
� Yuri
I can't tell what you are doing unless I see it. �The most common
causes of right hand problems is a lack of coordintation of joints-
joints flex together and release together- �and not using �natural
release. Having said that, it could be anything. �Put something up on
youtube and we'll all take a look.
Thanks to all for the advices ... I don't think I'm doing anything
wrong ... I play guitar for 40 years, some of it professionally. I
studied in Academy of Music in Jerusalem, so I think my technique is
pretty solid. It's really difficult to explain this condition. The
index finger just lost it's velocity... When I try to play more
exercises with i-m fingers I develop light pain right between the
knuckles of i and m finger. Taking a break for several weeks didn't
help, on the opposite it took very long time to get back to where I
left off. I'd be happy to find a doctor specializing in hand/finger
problems. I live not far from NYC - anybody can recomend a doctor? BTW
I talked long time ago about this problem with Matanya Ophee and he
suggested to move guitar to the right knee and play similar to
flamenco style. I think he had similar problem at one time. Looks like
it helped him, but didn't do anything for me ... I'll definitely look
at dystonia on the Web ..
Regards,
Yuri
Steven Bornfeld
2009-05-03 01:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
� Yuri
I can't tell what you are doing unless I see it. �The most common
causes of right hand problems is a lack of coordintation of joints-
joints flex together and release together- �and not using �natural
release. Having said that, it could be anything. �Put something up on
youtube and we'll all take a look.
Thanks to all for the advices ... I don't think I'm doing anything
wrong ... I play guitar for 40 years, some of it professionally. I
studied in Academy of Music in Jerusalem, so I think my technique is
pretty solid. It's really difficult to explain this condition. The
index finger just lost it's velocity... When I try to play more
exercises with i-m fingers I develop light pain right between the
knuckles of i and m finger. Taking a break for several weeks didn't
help, on the opposite it took very long time to get back to where I
left off. I'd be happy to find a doctor specializing in hand/finger
problems. I live not far from NYC - anybody can recomend a doctor? BTW
I talked long time ago about this problem with Matanya Ophee and he
suggested to move guitar to the right knee and play similar to
flamenco style. I think he had similar problem at one time. Looks like
it helped him, but didn't do anything for me ... I'll definitely look
at dystonia on the Web ..
Regards,
Yuri
Well, you might wish to talk to David Leisner about his experiences
with focal dystonia.
He seems to be rather down on the medical profession as far as their
knowledge base on focal dystonia is concerned. His contempt may be
understandable given his personal experience. Still, you are probably
best off starting with a good hand surgeon.
The only hand surgeon I've seen myself is Mukund Patel, who is chief of
hand surgery at Maimonides in Brooklyn. He did no surgery on me, but he
did on my sister in law, and it came out well. Not much of a
recommendation I know, but it's all I've got.

Good luck,
Steve
c***@aol.com
2009-05-03 16:15:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
I can't tell what you are doing unless I see it. The most common
causes of right hand problems is a lack of coordintation of joints-
joints flex together and release together- and not using natural
release. Having said that, it could be anything. Put something up on
youtube and we'll all take a look.
Thanks to all for the advices ... I don't think I'm doing anything
wrong ... I play guitar for 40 years, some of it professionally. I
studied in Academy of Music in Jerusalem, so I think my technique is
pretty solid. It's really difficult to explain this condition. The
index finger just lost it's velocity... When I try to play more
exercises with i-m fingers I develop light pain right between the
knuckles of i and m finger. Taking a break for several weeks didn't
help, on the opposite it took very long time to get back to where I
left off. I'd be happy to find a doctor specializing in hand/finger
problems. I live not far from NYC - anybody can recomend a doctor? BTW
I talked long time ago about this problem with Matanya Ophee and he
suggested to move guitar to the right knee and play similar to
flamenco style. I think he had similar problem at one time. Looks like
it helped him, but didn't do anything for me ...  I'll definitely look
at dystonia on the Web ..
Regards,
   Yuri
        Well, you might wish to talk to David Leisner about his experiences
with focal dystonia.
        He seems to be rather down on the medical profession as far as their
knowledge base on focal dystonia is concerned.  His contempt may be
understandable given his personal experience.  Still, you are probably
best off starting with a good hand surgeon.
        The only hand surgeon I've seen myself is Mukund Patel, who is chief of
hand surgery at Maimonides in Brooklyn.  He did no surgery on me, but he
did on my sister in law, and it came out well.  Not much of a
recommendation I know, but it's all I've got.
Good luck,
Steve
There is a clinic in Spain that has "cured" dystonics through
retraining the neuromuscular systems (see the youtube videos). There
is a clinic in San Francisco, I believe, that has a therapy of
immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers with some quicker and
positive results and David Leisner also claims some success with large
muscle retraining (not only for himself but with others). I think the
reason the conventional medical profession has not investigated this
is because it is relatively rare (not enough money in it), is confused
with other types of dystonia, and, prior to brain imaging, was masked
as other ailments.

There is no evidence to support the contention that it arises from any
defect in technique, though a study showed that it could be developed
in monkeys from overuse. There is also evidence that there may be a
genetic predisposition to it. New brain imaging techniques have given
rise to more studies about it and a clearer understanding as to what
is going on neurologically. Still unsure why some get it and some
don't.

Kevin T.
Miguel de Maria
2009-05-03 16:49:39 UTC
Permalink
http://www.davidleisner.com/CuringFocalDystonia.html

I have a friend in England who got this, and wanted to consult with
Leisner about it. Apparently he was charging a large amount, perhaps
$1K+, simply for a telephone conversation about it.
Post by c***@aol.com
There is a clinic in Spain that has "cured" dystonics through
retraining the neuromuscular systems (see the youtube videos). There
is a clinic in San Francisco, I believe, that has a therapy of
immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers with some quicker and
positive results and David Leisner also claims some success with large
muscle retraining (not only for himself but with others). I think the
reason the conventional medical profession has not investigated  this
is because it is relatively rare (not enough money in it), is confused
with other types of dystonia, and, prior to brain imaging, was masked
as other ailments.
h kiesel
2009-05-03 18:33:33 UTC
Permalink
It's sad that he has to gouge to that degree, if he in fact charges that
much. Kind of alters my thinking of him.

hk
"Miguel de Maria" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:e74573ba-1183-4eaf-9030-***@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
http://www.davidleisner.com/CuringFocalDystonia.html

I have a friend in England who got this, and wanted to consult with
Leisner about it. Apparently he was charging a large amount, perhaps
$1K+, simply for a telephone conversation about it.
Post by c***@aol.com
There is a clinic in Spain that has "cured" dystonics through
retraining the neuromuscular systems (see the youtube videos). There
is a clinic in San Francisco, I believe, that has a therapy of
immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers with some quicker and
positive results and David Leisner also claims some success with large
muscle retraining (not only for himself but with others). I think the
reason the conventional medical profession has not investigated this
is because it is relatively rare (not enough money in it), is confused
with other types of dystonia, and, prior to brain imaging, was masked
as other ailments.
Steven Bornfeld
2009-05-03 22:28:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by h kiesel
It's sad that he has to gouge to that degree, if he in fact charges that
much. Kind of alters my thinking of him.
I'd check his license first.

Steve (I believe that's a class "E" felony in NY State)
Post by h kiesel
hk
http://www.davidleisner.com/CuringFocalDystonia.html
I have a friend in England who got this, and wanted to consult with
Leisner about it. Apparently he was charging a large amount, perhaps
$1K+, simply for a telephone conversation about it.
Post by c***@aol.com
There is a clinic in Spain that has "cured" dystonics through
retraining the neuromuscular systems (see the youtube videos). There
is a clinic in San Francisco, I believe, that has a therapy of
immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers with some quicker and
positive results and David Leisner also claims some success with large
muscle retraining (not only for himself but with others). I think the
reason the conventional medical profession has not investigated this
is because it is relatively rare (not enough money in it), is confused
with other types of dystonia, and, prior to brain imaging, was masked
as other ailments.
c***@aol.com
2009-05-04 02:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by h kiesel
It's sad that he has to gouge to that degree, if he in fact charges that
much. Kind of alters my thinking of him.
hk
I have a friend in England who got this, and wanted to consult with
Leisner about it.  Apparently he was charging a large amount, perhaps
$1K+, simply for a telephone conversation about it.
This is pure nonsense and gossip. David has never invoiced me for
telephone conversations. We even talked about dystonia at length once
- a conversation he probably had a hundred times. He happens to be an
extraordinary player and a real braniac who cured humself of the
ailment. I believe he has something significant to add to the
conversation about this. Although I don't know him well, from all my
dealings with him, he is a person of dignity and high character. To
spread this garbage is shameful.

Kevin Taylor
h kiesel
2009-05-04 12:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Thank you for your comment and introducing doubt.

hk
Post by h kiesel
It's sad that he has to gouge to that degree, if he in fact charges that
much. Kind of alters my thinking of him.
hk
I have a friend in England who got this, and wanted to consult with
Leisner about it. Apparently he was charging a large amount, perhaps
$1K+, simply for a telephone conversation about it.
This is pure nonsense and gossip. David has never invoiced me for
telephone conversations. We even talked about dystonia at length once
- a conversation he probably had a hundred times. He happens to be an
extraordinary player and a real braniac who cured humself of the
ailment. I believe he has something significant to add to the
conversation about this. Although I don't know him well, from all my
dealings with him, he is a person of dignity and high character. To
spread this garbage is shameful.

Kevin Taylor
h***@verizon.net
2009-05-04 15:29:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by h kiesel
Thank you for your comment and introducing doubt.
Post by h kiesel
It's sad that he has to gouge to that degree, if he in fact charges that
much. Kind of alters my thinking of him.
hk
I have a friend in England who got this, and wanted to consult with
Leisner about it. Apparently he was charging a large amount, perhaps
$1K+, simply for a telephone conversation about it.
This is pure nonsense and gossip. David has never invoiced me for
telephone conversations. We even talked about dystonia at length once
- a conversation he probably had a hundred times. He happens to be an
extraordinary player and a real braniac who cured humself of the
ailment. I believe he has something significant to add to the
conversation about this. Although I don't know him well, from all my
dealings with him, he is a person of dignity and high character. To
spread this garbage is shameful.
Kevin Taylor
I know David Leisner and this rumor about the huge fees is
ridiculous! Kevin is quite correct about his character and
integrity. Kevin is not introducing doubt, he is right on the money.

Seth
Miguel de Maria
2009-05-04 15:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by h kiesel
Thank you for your comment and introducing doubt.
Doc, I don't have proof, just the account of a person who did
correspond with him. This is a guitarist in England who developed
FD. Because the condition seems so utterly terrible, I have always
kept my eye out on news about the condition. So when I heard about
Leisner, I forwarded it to the guitarist. He then told me what I
related, that when he emailed Leisner that he quoted him an outrageous
fee (not in doctor terms, of course--I've been charged $1000 for 5
minutes of doc time before :)). The person who told me this is, as
far as I know, completely honest; and I know him a lot better than
Kevin knows Leisner.

Perhaps there were extenuating circumstances. Perhaps he was drowning
in medical bills and needed some quick cash. Maybe it was just a way
to tell someone to buzz off, etc. I find it a breach of collegiality,
but that's only my opinion.
Miguel de Maria
2009-05-04 15:29:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@aol.com
Post by h kiesel
It's sad that he has to gouge to that degree, if he in fact charges that
much. Kind of alters my thinking of him.
hk
I have a friend in England who got this, and wanted to consult with
Leisner about it.  Apparently he was charging a large amount, perhaps
$1K+, simply for a telephone conversation about it.
This is pure nonsense and gossip. David has never invoiced me for
telephone conversations. We even talked about dystonia at length once
- a conversation he probably had a hundred times. He happens to be an
extraordinary player and a real braniac who cured humself of the
ailment. I believe he has something significant to add to the
conversation about this. Although I don't know him well, from all my
dealings with him, he is a person of dignity and high character. To
spread this garbage is shameful.
Kevin Taylor
Don't be so quick to spout off about something you don't know about.
Simply because he didn't charge you doesn't mean he wouldn't charge
someone else, or in fact the average person. His being a great player
has no bearing on whether or not he would charge for a consultation.
And being such an uber-capitalist, I find it strange you think a
person of dignity and character wouldn't charge for such a
consultation. I'm sure you consider yourself quite brimming of
character and intelligence, yet you still charge for what you do.
Miguel de Maria
2009-05-05 17:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by h kiesel
It's sad that he has to gouge to that degree, if he in fact charges that
much. Kind of alters my thinking of him.
hk
I have a friend in England who got this, and wanted to consult with
Leisner about it.  Apparently he was charging a large amount, perhaps
$1K+, simply for a telephone conversation about it.
Post by c***@aol.com
There is a clinic in Spain that has "cured" dystonics through
retraining the neuromuscular systems (see the youtube videos). There
is a clinic in San Francisco, I believe, that has a therapy of
immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers with some quicker and
positive results and David Leisner also claims some success with large
muscle retraining (not only for himself but with others). I think the
reason the conventional medical profession has not investigated this
is because it is relatively rare (not enough money in it), is confused
with other types of dystonia, and, prior to brain imaging, was masked
as other ailments.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Doc, I talked to my friend and got the particulars:

The fee was for a personal consultation, which would consist in seeing
him for several days' in a row. Apparently a telephone consultation
was not on the table. The fee was also the same that Leisner would
charge for normal lessons. Given that he is a semi-famous guitarist,
a semi-large fee for the described service seems reasonable (to me).

I don't have any explanation why it had to be in-person for a
guitarist in Britain and free and telephonic for Kevin Taylor. But
then the latter is a person of high stature and commendable reserve.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-05-05 17:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miguel de Maria
The fee was for a personal consultation, which would consist in seeing
him for several days' in a row. Apparently a telephone consultation
was not on the table. The fee was also the same that Leisner would
charge for normal lessons. Given that he is a semi-famous guitarist,
a semi-large fee for the described service seems reasonable (to me).
I don't have any explanation why it had to be in-person for a
guitarist in Britain and free and telephonic for Kevin Taylor. But
then the latter is a person of high stature and commendable reserve.
Unless he has some kind of a license, that's very dicey--for Professor
Leisner.

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
c***@aol.com
2009-05-05 18:22:31 UTC
Permalink
On May 5, 12:45 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Miguel de Maria
The fee was for a personal consultation, which would consist in seeing
him for several days' in a row.  Apparently a telephone consultation
was not on the table.  The fee was also the same that Leisner would
charge for normal lessons.  Given that he is a semi-famous guitarist,
a semi-large fee for the described service seems reasonable (to me).
I don't have any explanation why it had to be in-person for a
guitarist in Britain and free and telephonic for Kevin Taylor.  But
then the latter is a person of high stature and commendable reserve.
        Unless he has some kind of a license, that's very dicey--for Professor
Leisner.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
I don't wish to speak for David, but if someone comes to him for a
guitar lesson and that person's technique is hampered by musician's
dystonia, could not David suggest methods and exercises to overcome
that without breaking the law?

Kevin Taylor
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-05-05 18:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@aol.com
I don't wish to speak for David, but if someone comes to him for a
guitar lesson and that person's technique is hampered by musician's
dystonia, could not David suggest methods and exercises to overcome
that without breaking the law?
Kevin Taylor
I'm not an attorney. My guess is that if the student thinks he/she has
focal dystonia, or has been diagnosed with focal dystonia, and in the
course of instruction David gave the student some pointers that were of
help to him, it would be very difficult to find he'd violated the law.
However, David has on multiple occasions stated on the public record
that after consulting many doctors who were useless in treatment of his
FD, he devised his own regimen for treatment and "cured" himself.
If he now feels that (having thus presented himself) he can answer
inquiries on the condition where he sees the student, diagnoses the
student, or enters into an arrangement to help the student directly by
means that are intended to be therapeutic, he may be on shaky ground
legally.
He may of course have already received legal advice in this area, and
if he has been advised by an expert that he is not operating in
violation of the laws of New York State, I certainly am in no position
to say otherwise. But if he hasn't checked with an expert in the state
medical practice act and is providing therapeutic services, I would
definitely get legal advise.
I hasten to add that I have no idea if he does actually do anything
that could be construed as medical treatment.

JMO,
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
socrates
2009-05-05 19:06:55 UTC
Permalink
On May 5, 2:48 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by c***@aol.com
I don't wish to speak for David, but if someone comes to him for a
guitar lesson and that person's technique is hampered by musician's
dystonia, could not David suggest methods and exercises to overcome
that without breaking the law?
Kevin Taylor
        I'm not an attorney.  My guess is that if the student thinks he/she has
focal dystonia, or has been diagnosed with focal dystonia, and in the
course of instruction David gave the student some pointers that were of
help to him, it would be very difficult to find he'd violated the law.
        However, David has on multiple occasions stated on the public record
that after consulting many doctors who were useless in treatment of his
FD, he devised his own regimen for treatment and "cured" himself.
        If he now feels that (having thus presented himself) he can answer
inquiries on the condition where he sees the student, diagnoses the
student, or enters into an arrangement to help the student directly by
means that are intended to be therapeutic, he may be on shaky ground
legally.
        He may of course have already received legal advice in this area, and
if he has been advised by an expert that he is not operating in
violation of the laws of New York State, I certainly am in no position
to say otherwise.  But if he hasn't checked with an expert in the state
medical practice act and is providing therapeutic services, I would
definitely get legal advise.
        I hasten to add that I have no idea if he does actually do anything
that could be construed as medical treatment.
JMO,
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Wouldn't it be similar to those natural remedies where they say (after
making all kinds of wild claims) something to the effect that it isn't
a cure necessarily, or no FDA approval.....?
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-05-05 19:24:13 UTC
Permalink
On May 5, 2:48 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by c***@aol.com
I don't wish to speak for David, but if someone comes to him for a
guitar lesson and that person's technique is hampered by musician's
dystonia, could not David suggest methods and exercises to overcome
that without breaking the law?
Kevin Taylor
I'm not an attorney. My guess is that if the student thinks he/she has
focal dystonia, or has been diagnosed with focal dystonia, and in the
course of instruction David gave the student some pointers that were of
help to him, it would be very difficult to find he'd violated the law.
However, David has on multiple occasions stated on the public record
that after consulting many doctors who were useless in treatment of his
FD, he devised his own regimen for treatment and "cured" himself.
If he now feels that (having thus presented himself) he can answer
inquiries on the condition where he sees the student, diagnoses the
student, or enters into an arrangement to help the student directly by
means that are intended to be therapeutic, he may be on shaky ground
legally.
He may of course have already received legal advice in this area, and
if he has been advised by an expert that he is not operating in
violation of the laws of New York State, I certainly am in no position
to say otherwise. But if he hasn't checked with an expert in the state
medical practice act and is providing therapeutic services, I would
definitely get legal advise.
I hasten to add that I have no idea if he does actually do anything
that could be construed as medical treatment.
JMO,
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Wouldn't it be similar to those natural remedies where they say (after
making all kinds of wild claims) something to the effect that it isn't
a cure necessarily, or no FDA approval.....?
"This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any
disease". Well, yeah. I'm obviously trying to be very careful about my
language here, because though I'm out of my depth on the precise legal
issues, I have been mandated to take both risk prevention and
jurisprudence courses as a requirement of maintaining my license and
state registration. It seems to me that (just as they got Capone on tax
evasion), the state medical practice acts are often used to get someone
really, really bad off the streets. So getting a prominent guitarist,
educator, performer off the streets would probably not be a priority of
the state medical practice act, nor would anyone likely be much
concerned with someone trying sincerely to help someone--not even the
orthopedist who didn't help him. The problem will likely arise if
someone he ministers to doesn't get good results, esp. if he is being
compensated.
You see, it's always about money in the end. ;-)

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
c***@aol.com
2009-05-05 20:41:15 UTC
Permalink
On May 5, 2:24 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
<***@dentaltwins.com> wrote:
 The problem will likely arise if
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
someone he ministers to doesn't get good results, esp. if he is being
compensated.
        You see, it's always about money in the end.  ;-)
That doesn't seem to be a problem for the medical practitioners.

Even though there is much history of study about dystonia and there
are all sorts of dystonia, "musician's dystonia" is a rather recent
category. I'm not sure it is even recognized as a real ailment, yet. I
bet I could not find 5 hand specialists in Texas that had any
treatment regimen for it (and the American Academy of the Hand is in
Houston) and none that had any success. I would love to be proven
wrong since I am encountering it more and more among guitarists and
other musicians. As I reported before, according to one study,
guitarists are the second most common victims of Musician's focal
dystonia. The RH index finger is the most frequent appendage affected,
the 'a' finger is the next.

Anybody remember Nicola Hall?

Since I am somewhat responsible for many children beginning guitar
(though I don't control the pedagogy) , I want to know more about this
because if its origin is simply technical we would want to avoid that
technique. Thus far, there is no direct evidence of that. However, I
think there may be a suspicious linkage between overusing finger
alternation and dystonia, since there is a migration of the index
finger neurology over to the middle finger in the homunculus
representation in the brain images in dystonics. This may result in
the index finger losing its independence and why the recent therapy of
splint-immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers has shown to be
helpful in regaining control. And since alternation is a very basic
part of many schools of pedagogy this might demand that a counter
neurological technique be taught. But its all speculation at this
point.

Kevin T.
Steven Bornfeld
2009-05-05 21:48:44 UTC
Permalink
On May 5, 2:24 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
The problem will likely arise if
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
someone he ministers to doesn't get good results, esp. if he is being
compensated.
You see, it's always about money in the end. ;-)
That doesn't seem to be a problem for the medical practitioners.
The medical profession can only be held to the professional standard(s)
existing at the time. This isn't perfect (especially for new or
unexplained conditions), but the alternatives are not likely to be better.

Steve
Even though there is much history of study about dystonia and there
are all sorts of dystonia, "musician's dystonia" is a rather recent
category. I'm not sure it is even recognized as a real ailment, yet. I
bet I could not find 5 hand specialists in Texas that had any
treatment regimen for it (and the American Academy of the Hand is in
Houston) and none that had any success. I would love to be proven
wrong since I am encountering it more and more among guitarists and
other musicians. As I reported before, according to one study,
guitarists are the second most common victims of Musician's focal
dystonia. The RH index finger is the most frequent appendage affected,
the 'a' finger is the next.
Anybody remember Nicola Hall?
Since I am somewhat responsible for many children beginning guitar
(though I don't control the pedagogy) , I want to know more about this
because if its origin is simply technical we would want to avoid that
technique. Thus far, there is no direct evidence of that. However, I
think there may be a suspicious linkage between overusing finger
alternation and dystonia, since there is a migration of the index
finger neurology over to the middle finger in the homunculus
representation in the brain images in dystonics. This may result in
the index finger losing its independence and why the recent therapy of
splint-immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers has shown to be
helpful in regaining control. And since alternation is a very basic
part of many schools of pedagogy this might demand that a counter
neurological technique be taught. But its all speculation at this
point.
Kevin T.
Dicerous
2009-05-06 00:47:59 UTC
Permalink
  The problem will likely arise if
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
someone he ministers to doesn't get good results, esp. if he is being
compensated.
        You see, it's always about money in the end.  ;-)
That doesn't seem to be a problem for the medical practitioners.
Even though there is much history of study about dystonia and there
are all sorts of dystonia, "musician's dystonia" is a rather recent
category. I'm not sure it is even recognized as a real ailment, yet. I
bet I could not find 5 hand specialists in Texas that had any
treatment regimen for it (and the American Academy of the Hand is in
Houston) and none that had any success. I would love to be proven
wrong since I am encountering it more and more among guitarists and
other musicians. As I reported before, according to one study,
guitarists are the second most common victims of Musician's focal
dystonia. The RH index finger is the most frequent appendage affected,
the 'a' finger is the next.
Anybody remember Nicola Hall?
Since I am somewhat responsible for many children beginning guitar
(though I don't control the pedagogy) , I want to know more about this
because if its origin is simply technical we would want to avoid that
technique. Thus far, there is no direct evidence of that. However, I
think there may be a suspicious linkage between overusing finger
alternation and dystonia, since there is a migration of the index
finger neurology over to the middle finger in the homunculus
representation in the brain images in dystonics. This may result in
the index finger losing its independence and why the recent therapy of
splint-immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers has shown to be
helpful in regaining control. And since alternation is a very basic
part of many schools of pedagogy this might demand that a counter
neurological technique be taught. But its all speculation at this
point.
Kevin T.
blah, blah, blah, blah....you need to be checked by a good
psychiatrist kevin.

David
c***@aol.com
2009-05-06 03:10:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dicerous
  The problem will likely arise if
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
someone he ministers to doesn't get good results, esp. if he is being
compensated.
        You see, it's always about money in the end.  ;-)
That doesn't seem to be a problem for the medical practitioners.
Even though there is much history of study about dystonia and there
are all sorts of dystonia, "musician's dystonia" is a rather recent
category. I'm not sure it is even recognized as a real ailment, yet. I
bet I could not find 5 hand specialists in Texas that had any
treatment regimen for it (and the American Academy of the Hand is in
Houston) and none that had any success. I would love to be proven
wrong since I am encountering it more and more among guitarists and
other musicians. As I reported before, according to one study,
guitarists are the second most common victims of Musician's focal
dystonia. The RH index finger is the most frequent appendage affected,
the 'a' finger is the next.
Anybody remember Nicola Hall?
Since I am somewhat responsible for many children beginning guitar
(though I don't control the pedagogy) , I want to know more about this
because if its origin is simply technical we would want to avoid that
technique. Thus far, there is no direct evidence of that. However, I
think there may be a suspicious linkage between overusing finger
alternation and dystonia, since there is a migration of the index
finger neurology over to the middle finger in the homunculus
representation in the brain images in dystonics. This may result in
the index finger losing its independence and why the recent therapy of
splint-immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers has shown to be
helpful in regaining control. And since alternation is a very basic
part of many schools of pedagogy this might demand that a counter
neurological technique be taught. But its all speculation at this
point.
Kevin T.
blah, blah, blah, blah....you need to be checked by a good
psychiatrist kevin.
David
Anybody who sees a psychiatrist needs to have his head examined.

KT
Dicerous
2009-05-06 05:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@aol.com
Post by Dicerous
  The problem will likely arise if
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
someone he ministers to doesn't get good results, esp. if he is being
compensated.
        You see, it's always about money in the end.  ;-)
That doesn't seem to be a problem for the medical practitioners.
Even though there is much history of study about dystonia and there
are all sorts of dystonia, "musician's dystonia" is a rather recent
category. I'm not sure it is even recognized as a real ailment, yet. I
bet I could not find 5 hand specialists in Texas that had any
treatment regimen for it (and the American Academy of the Hand is in
Houston) and none that had any success. I would love to be proven
wrong since I am encountering it more and more among guitarists and
other musicians. As I reported before, according to one study,
guitarists are the second most common victims of Musician's focal
dystonia. The RH index finger is the most frequent appendage affected,
the 'a' finger is the next.
Anybody remember Nicola Hall?
Since I am somewhat responsible for many children beginning guitar
(though I don't control the pedagogy) , I want to know more about this
because if its origin is simply technical we would want to avoid that
technique. Thus far, there is no direct evidence of that. However, I
think there may be a suspicious linkage between overusing finger
alternation and dystonia, since there is a migration of the index
finger neurology over to the middle finger in the homunculus
representation in the brain images in dystonics. This may result in
the index finger losing its independence and why the recent therapy of
splint-immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers has shown to be
helpful in regaining control. And since alternation is a very basic
part of many schools of pedagogy this might demand that a counter
neurological technique be taught. But its all speculation at this
point.
Kevin T.
blah, blah, blah, blah....you need to be checked by a good
psychiatrist kevin.
David
Anybody who sees a psychiatrist needs to have his head examined.
KT
Kevin must have ass burger's syndrome! You have lots of friends just
like you here in the barnyard.

David
c***@aol.com
2009-05-06 17:47:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@aol.com
Post by Dicerous
  The problem will likely arise if
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
someone he ministers to doesn't get good results, esp. if he is being
compensated.
        You see, it's always about money in the end.  ;-)
That doesn't seem to be a problem for the medical practitioners.
Even though there is much history of study about dystonia and there
are all sorts of dystonia, "musician's dystonia" is a rather recent
category. I'm not sure it is even recognized as a real ailment, yet. I
bet I could not find 5 hand specialists in Texas that had any
treatment regimen for it (and the American Academy of the Hand is in
Houston) and none that had any success. I would love to be proven
wrong since I am encountering it more and more among guitarists and
other musicians. As I reported before, according to one study,
guitarists are the second most common victims of Musician's focal
dystonia. The RH index finger is the most frequent appendage affected,
the 'a' finger is the next.
Anybody remember Nicola Hall?
Since I am somewhat responsible for many children beginning guitar
(though I don't control the pedagogy) , I want to know more about this
because if its origin is simply technical we would want to avoid that
technique. Thus far, there is no direct evidence of that. However, I
think there may be a suspicious linkage between overusing finger
alternation and dystonia, since there is a migration of the index
finger neurology over to the middle finger in the homunculus
representation in the brain images in dystonics. This may result in
the index finger losing its independence and why the recent therapy of
splint-immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers has shown to be
helpful in regaining control. And since alternation is a very basic
part of many schools of pedagogy this might demand that a counter
neurological technique be taught. But its all speculation at this
point.
Kevin T.
blah, blah, blah, blah....you need to be checked by a good
psychiatrist kevin.
David
Anybody who sees a psychiatrist needs to have his head examined.
KT
Kevin must have ass burger's syndrome!  You have lots of friends just
like you here in the barnyard.
David
Am I to assume from your responses that you don't wish to be one of
them?

Kevin

P.S. Do you know how old Freud was when his mother died?
Dicerous
2009-05-07 00:01:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@aol.com
Post by c***@aol.com
Post by Dicerous
  The problem will likely arise if
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
someone he ministers to doesn't get good results, esp. if he is being
compensated.
        You see, it's always about money in the end.  ;-)
That doesn't seem to be a problem for the medical practitioners.
Even though there is much history of study about dystonia and there
are all sorts of dystonia, "musician's dystonia" is a rather recent
category. I'm not sure it is even recognized as a real ailment, yet. I
bet I could not find 5 hand specialists in Texas that had any
treatment regimen for it (and the American Academy of the Hand is in
Houston) and none that had any success. I would love to be proven
wrong since I am encountering it more and more among guitarists and
other musicians. As I reported before, according to one study,
guitarists are the second most common victims of Musician's focal
dystonia. The RH index finger is the most frequent appendage affected,
the 'a' finger is the next.
Anybody remember Nicola Hall?
Since I am somewhat responsible for many children beginning guitar
(though I don't control the pedagogy) , I want to know more about this
because if its origin is simply technical we would want to avoid that
technique. Thus far, there is no direct evidence of that. However, I
think there may be a suspicious linkage between overusing finger
alternation and dystonia, since there is a migration of the index
finger neurology over to the middle finger in the homunculus
representation in the brain images in dystonics. This may result in
the index finger losing its independence and why the recent therapy of
splint-immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers has shown to be
helpful in regaining control. And since alternation is a very basic
part of many schools of pedagogy this might demand that a counter
neurological technique be taught. But its all speculation at this
point.
Kevin T.
blah, blah, blah, blah....you need to be checked by a good
psychiatrist kevin.
David
Anybody who sees a psychiatrist needs to have his head examined.
KT
Kevin must have ass burger's syndrome!  You have lots of friends just
like you here in the barnyard.
David
Am I to assume from your responses that you don't wish to be one of
them?
Kevin
P.S. Do  you know how old Freud was when his mother died?
hmm...sounds like a trick question..


David
c***@aol.com
2009-05-05 18:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miguel de Maria
Post by h kiesel
It's sad that he has to gouge to that degree, if he in fact charges that
much. Kind of alters my thinking of him.
hk
I have a friend in England who got this, and wanted to consult with
Leisner about it.  Apparently he was charging a large amount, perhaps
$1K+, simply for a telephone conversation about it.
Post by c***@aol.com
There is a clinic in Spain that has "cured" dystonics through
retraining the neuromuscular systems (see the youtube videos). There
is a clinic in San Francisco, I believe, that has a therapy of
immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers with some quicker and
positive results and David Leisner also claims some success with large
muscle retraining (not only for himself but with others). I think the
reason the conventional medical profession has not investigated this
is because it is relatively rare (not enough money in it), is confused
with other types of dystonia, and, prior to brain imaging, was masked
as other ailments.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
The fee was for a personal consultation, which would consist in seeing
him for several days' in a row.  Apparently a telephone consultation
was not on the table.  The fee was also the same that Leisner would
charge for normal lessons.  Given that he is a semi-famous guitarist,
a semi-large fee for the described service seems reasonable (to me).
I don't have any explanation why it had to be in-person for a
guitarist in Britain and free and telephonic for Kevin Taylor.  But
then the latter is a person of high stature and commendable reserve.
I never said that David would provide therapy over the phone - just
that he didn't charge me anything to discuss the subject over the
phone. Nor did I believe he charged $1000 for a phone consultation
which you implied when you wrote, "Apparently he was charging a large
amount, perhaps $1K+, simply for a telephone conversation about it."

If Leisner can help people with this condition, I didn't think his
work should be misrepresented by gossip. Its appreciated that you "got
the particulars" and corrected the record.

Kevin T.
Steven Bornfeld
2009-05-03 22:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@aol.com
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by y***@att.com
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
I can't tell what you are doing unless I see it. The most common
causes of right hand problems is a lack of coordintation of joints-
joints flex together and release together- and not using natural
release. Having said that, it could be anything. Put something up on
youtube and we'll all take a look.
Thanks to all for the advices ... I don't think I'm doing anything
wrong ... I play guitar for 40 years, some of it professionally. I
studied in Academy of Music in Jerusalem, so I think my technique is
pretty solid. It's really difficult to explain this condition. The
index finger just lost it's velocity... When I try to play more
exercises with i-m fingers I develop light pain right between the
knuckles of i and m finger. Taking a break for several weeks didn't
help, on the opposite it took very long time to get back to where I
left off. I'd be happy to find a doctor specializing in hand/finger
problems. I live not far from NYC - anybody can recomend a doctor? BTW
I talked long time ago about this problem with Matanya Ophee and he
suggested to move guitar to the right knee and play similar to
flamenco style. I think he had similar problem at one time. Looks like
it helped him, but didn't do anything for me ... I'll definitely look
at dystonia on the Web ..
Regards,
Yuri
Well, you might wish to talk to David Leisner about his experiences
with focal dystonia.
He seems to be rather down on the medical profession as far as their
knowledge base on focal dystonia is concerned. His contempt may be
understandable given his personal experience. Still, you are probably
best off starting with a good hand surgeon.
The only hand surgeon I've seen myself is Mukund Patel, who is chief of
hand surgery at Maimonides in Brooklyn. He did no surgery on me, but he
did on my sister in law, and it came out well. Not much of a
recommendation I know, but it's all I've got.
Good luck,
Steve
There is a clinic in Spain that has "cured" dystonics through
retraining the neuromuscular systems (see the youtube videos). There
is a clinic in San Francisco, I believe, that has a therapy of
immobilization of the non-dystonic fingers with some quicker and
positive results and David Leisner also claims some success with large
muscle retraining (not only for himself but with others). I think the
reason the conventional medical profession has not investigated this
is because it is relatively rare (not enough money in it), is confused
with other types of dystonia, and, prior to brain imaging, was masked
as other ailments.
There is no evidence to support the contention that it arises from any
defect in technique, though a study showed that it could be developed
in monkeys from overuse. There is also evidence that there may be a
genetic predisposition to it. New brain imaging techniques have given
rise to more studies about it and a clearer understanding as to what
is going on neurologically. Still unsure why some get it and some
don't.
Kevin T.
I feel uncomfortable when conditions that are supposed to be relatively
rare become the first thing people think about. That's why I think a
good hand surgeon is the place to start--if not the place to finish.

Steve
Robert Crim
2009-05-03 14:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
? Yuri
I can't tell what you are doing unless I see it. ?The most common
causes of right hand problems is a lack of coordintation of joints-
joints flex together and release together- ?and not using ?natural
release. Having said that, it could be anything. ?Put something up on
youtube and we'll all take a look.
Thanks to all for the advices ... I don't think I'm doing anything
wrong ... I play guitar for 40 years, some of it professionally. I
studied in Academy of Music in Jerusalem, so I think my technique is
pretty solid. It's really difficult to explain this condition. The
index finger just lost it's velocity... When I try to play more
exercises with i-m fingers I develop light pain right between the
knuckles of i and m finger. Taking a break for several weeks didn't
help, on the opposite it took very long time to get back to where I
left off. I'd be happy to find a doctor specializing in hand/finger
problems. I live not far from NYC - anybody can recomend a doctor? BTW
I talked long time ago about this problem with Matanya Ophee and he
suggested to move guitar to the right knee and play similar to
flamenco style. I think he had similar problem at one time. Looks like
it helped him, but didn't do anything for me ... I'll definitely look
at dystonia on the Web ..
Regards,
Yuri
Since you are close to NYC, I suggest you look up and consult with Pat
O'Brien. He knows more about lute/guitar hand problems that anyone I
know. Send me an email and I'll send back his contact information.

Robert
Lutemann
2009-05-04 12:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
I can't tell what you are doing unless I see it. The most common
causes of right hand problems is a lack of coordintation of joints-
joints flex together and release together- and not using natural
release. Having said that, it could be anything. Put something up on
youtube and we'll all take a look.
Thanks to all for the advices ... I don't think I'm doing anything
wrong ... I play guitar for 40 years, some of it professionally. I
studied in Academy of Music in Jerusalem, so I think my technique is
pretty solid. It's really difficult to explain this condition. The
index finger just lost it's velocity... When I try to play more
exercises with i-m fingers I develop light pain right between the
knuckles of i and m finger. Taking a break for several weeks didn't
help, on the opposite it took very long time to get back to where I
left off. I'd be happy to find a doctor specializing in hand/finger
problems. I live not far from NYC - anybody can recomend a doctor? BTW
I talked long time ago about this problem with Matanya Ophee and he
suggested to move guitar to the right knee and play similar to
flamenco style. I think he had similar problem at one time. Looks like
it helped him, but didn't do anything for me ... I'll definitely look
at dystonia on the Web ..
Regards,
Yuri
Yuri says, "I play guitar for 40 years, some of it professionally. I
studied in Academy of Music in Jerusalem, so I think my technique is
pretty solid. It's really difficult to explain this condition."

It may be that your technique is good, but I'll tell you straight out
that the chances are it is not. Like I said, send me a video and I'll
tell you privately what I think. Then you can take the advice or blow
it off. If someone knocked at my door (and they have) and wanted
advice, I'd charge them $50.
Steve Freides
2009-05-01 18:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
Having read all the replies on this thread so far, I can't believe no
one has suggested the obvious - see a doctor. You may have arthritis,
you may have some other problem. Having seen a doctor a few years ago
doesn't mean you shouldn't see one again.

The hand surgeon who thought it might be originating in your neck could
be on to something - many hand problems, including what people think is
carpal tunnel syndrome, originate in the neck and should be treated
there.

A chiropractor might be good for you, and/or a message therapist, and/or
someone who does acupuncture and/or acupressure, and/or active release
therapy, rolfing, or any number of other things. All these can help but
not all will, so best to start doing some reading and set out on the
path that seems the most promising to you. You might even try something
as simple as a long, hot bath or shower on a regular basis with the goal
of releasing tension in your neck and shoulders.

-S-
socrates
2009-05-02 02:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
 Yuri
Having read all the replies on this thread so far, I can't believe no
one has suggested the obvious - see a doctor.  You may have arthritis,
you may have some other problem.  Having seen a doctor a few years ago
doesn't mean you shouldn't see one again.
The hand surgeon who thought it might be originating in your neck could
be on to something - many hand problems, including what people think is
carpal tunnel syndrome, originate in the neck and should be treated
there.
A chiropractor might be good for you, and/or a message therapist, and/or
someone who does acupuncture and/or acupressure, and/or active release
therapy, rolfing, or any number of other things.  All these can help but
not all will, so best to start doing some reading and set out on the
path that seems the most promising to you.  You might even try something
as simple as a long, hot bath or shower on a regular basis with the goal
of releasing tension in your neck and shoulders.
-S-
It's good to try things before spending what can be an enormous amount
of money.
Tom Sacold
2009-05-01 19:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
I have had a left index finger problem - at the top joint. Saw a specialist
hand surgeon who gave me an injection and told me to rest it for a couple of
weeks but also to exercise it lightly by flexing it up & down a couple of
times an hour. It has improved well enough to play most of what I want
to play, but its not perfect. I'm just very careful what I play and I
don't work it too hard.
h kiesel
2009-05-01 21:16:55 UTC
Permalink
It is unlikely that neck or shoulder problems would lead to symptoms
involving a single finger - the nervous system is not layed out that way.

If there is also weakness and difficulty with coordination(in addition to
pain) see a neurologist. If it is pain alone, it sounds like arthritis for
which treatment can help but not eliminate the problem. Speak to your
primary doc or a rheumatologist or, I guess, a hand surgeon who is not too
aggressive with surgery.

Playing guitar, unless you are wildly aggressive with finger action, is
actually probably beneficial for the usual arthritis involving these joints.

hk
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
c***@aol.com
2009-05-02 02:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
It sounds very much like musician's focal dystonia. Look on youtube
for that. There is an Italian guitarist who put up an interesting
before and after (repatterning therapy) video. The knuckle pain is
likely from using a mouse pad and may be related. The pain can go away
but the dystonia won't. The second most common victims of musician's
dytonia are guitarists (after pianists). The right hand index finger
is the most common appendage that is affected - the ring finger is the
next.

Kevin T.
Miguel de Maria
2009-05-02 02:39:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@aol.com
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
It sounds very much like musician's focal dystonia. Look on youtube
for that. There is an Italian guitarist who put up an interesting
before and after (repatterning therapy) video. The knuckle pain is
likely from using a mouse pad and may be related. The pain can go away
but the dystonia won't. The second most common victims of musician's
dytonia are guitarists (after pianists). The right hand index finger
is the most common appendage that is affected - the ring finger is the
next.
Kevin T.
I'm surprised no one else mentioned dystonia, but I don't like to bust
out the F word!

I would advise the original poster to research his symptoms online
extensively. Then, rest for a long time. If it doesn't go away, your
reseach will have given you an idea of what sort of health care
practitioner to see. To a hammer, every problem looks like a nail:
Musician's injuries aren't common enough to expect the average doc to
know where to direct you. (note: given that doc kiesel plays guitar,
his ideas should be taken to heart).
Murdick
2016-12-03 13:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@aol.com
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
It sounds very much like musician's focal dystonia. Look on youtube
for that. There is an Italian guitarist who put up an interesting
before and after (repatterning therapy) video. The knuckle pain is
likely from using a mouse pad and may be related. The pain can go away
but the dystonia won't. The second most common victims of musician's
dytonia are guitarists (after pianists). The right hand index finger
is the most common appendage that is affected - the ring finger is
next.
Kevin T.
It would seem to me that it is easier to switch instruments than to fight focal dystonia. I've often thought that if I hurt a finger badly, I would take up the vibes or some instrument that was not impacted by the injury. After all, we are mainly interested in the music. As it is, I took up the sax at age 60 and played my first paid gig two weeks ago. I was (and still is) a bitch to learn and my bad 'm' finger has a slight impact on my playing. Nothing is free, and the purpose of life is to just you in the ass when you're not looking- and who's looking?
Murdick
2016-12-03 13:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@aol.com
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
  Yuri
It sounds very much like musician's focal dystonia. Look on youtube
for that. There is an Italian guitarist who put up an interesting
before and after (repatterning therapy) video. The knuckle pain is
likely from using a mouse pad and may be related. The pain can go away
but the dystonia won't. The second most common victims of musician's
dytonia are guitarists (after pianists). The right hand index finger
is the most common appendage that is affected - the ring finger is the
next.
Kevin T.
It would seem to me that it is easier to switch instruments than to fight focal dystonia. I've often thought that if I hurt a finger badly, I would take up the vibes or some instrument that was not impacted by the injury. After all, we are mainly interested in the music. As it is, I took up the sax at age 60 and played my first paid gig two weeks ago. I was (and still is) a bitch to learn and my bad 'm' finger has a slight impact on my playing. Nothing is free, and the purpose of life is to kick you in the ass when you're not looking- and who's looking?
forlorn hope
2009-05-02 11:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ...> Couple of years ago I went to a hand
surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
Hi Yuri
I have had to give up playing at 60 because of osteoarthritis in the base of
my left thumb and the joints of my left index finger. If you are suffering
from the early stages of arthritis then you would probably get periods of
intense throbbing pain in your index finger at any time, not just when
practising although practising will make it worse. I tried everything from
exercise to injections, acupuncture, conventional and natural medicines -
nothing made any difference - in the end I had to accept a lifestyle change.
ie sell my guitars. I hope you have more luck. The fact you are still able
to play without much pain after a couple of years of this condition is
hopeful. Good luck with it.
FH
socrates
2009-05-02 14:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by forlorn hope
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ...> Couple of years ago I went to a hand
surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
 Yuri
Hi Yuri
I have had to give up playing at 60 because of osteoarthritis in the base of
my left thumb and the joints of my left index finger.  If you are suffering
from the early stages of arthritis then you would probably get periods of
intense throbbing pain in your index finger at any time, not just when
practising although practising will make it worse.  I tried everything from
exercise to injections, acupuncture, conventional and natural medicines -
nothing made any difference - in the end I had to accept a lifestyle change.
ie sell my guitars.  I hope you have more luck.  The fact you are still able
to play without much pain after a couple of years of this condition is
hopeful.  Good luck with it.
FH
Maybe try to get out and do a lot of light, relaxing walking.
forlorn hope
2009-05-03 09:02:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by socrates
Maybe try to get out and do a lot of light, relaxing walking.
Yuri? Me? Both of us? Why?!
FH
socrates
2009-05-03 14:56:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by socrates
Maybe try to get out and do a lot of light, relaxing walking.
Yuri?  Me?  Both of us?  Why?!
FH
I meant yl6, whover that is. Walking can help healing.
David Raleigh Arnold
2009-05-04 14:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed that
my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and speed.
At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination rather than
i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn many pieces.
If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I start
experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger connects to
the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't find
any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in the
neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions? Regards,
Yuri
With age muscles tend to become weaker and less resoponsive. If you are
skilled and efficient, you exercise opposing muscles less and less. When
the lack of exertion in the opposing muscle passes a certain threshold,
the homunculus (the brain's body/brain image) is no longer able to
coordinate the motion. Sensing weakness, the homunculus tenses the
system to provide strength, both immediately and through exercise. If
the weakness or lack of skill, which are the same thing to the
homunculus, is too great, the tension is uncontrollable because it is
undifferentiated. It becomes like a telephone pole with three guy wires
at right angles. Without the fourth, failure is certain.

The opposing muscles of the a and m fingers share a common tendon, so
they necessarily act against each other. Because of that, they cannot
become weakened in spite of use as the opposing muscle of the index can.

The solution is to both:

1. Strengthen the opposing muscles in the hand through exerrcise.

2. Retrain the hand by practicing strokes.

Heavy (and light) rasgeado is the best way, perhaps the only way, to
strenghten the opposing muscles in the right hand to the degree
necessary. Pianists afflicted with this problem need to get a guitar,
learn a few chords, and practice heavy rasgeado also, because they can't
do it playing piano. We guitarists are very lucky, ;-)

The best tool for practicing strokes is DGT, especially scales, practiced
very slowly. For your purposes the "Exercise in Sharps and Flats" in
Carcassi op. 59, on page 13, and/or the "Carcassi Scales", summarized on
my site, are especially good for retraining the im tirato strokes
specifically, and that should be your main goal, obviously. My "broom"
etude is another good one.

I don't know whether relaxation of the opposing muscle of the index
caused your condition, but it could have, and the worst thing you could
do is to try to remove tension. Instead, try to maintain moderate
tension, not minimum or maximum tension, when playing with index and
middle as you work the Carcassi. You still lengthen your stroke somewhat
by straightening the end of the index somewhat when attacking the string,
just don't relax anything.

If you follow this prescription you will have noticeable results within a
week, but it will be a long slog to really fix the problem if you are not
young.

Good luck. daveA
--
Very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Intermediate guitar
solos, theory, banjo, harmonica. Free download of technical exercises
worth a lifetime of practice. Compare Segovia's scale set with DGT:
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html
JPD
2016-11-27 21:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
With age muscles tend to become weaker and less resoponsive. If you are
skilled and efficient, you exercise opposing muscles less and less. When
the lack of exertion in the opposing muscle passes a certain threshold,
the homunculus (the brain's body/brain image) is no longer able to
coordinate the motion. Sensing weakness, the homunculus tenses the
system to provide strength, both immediately and through exercise. If
the weakness or lack of skill, which are the same thing to the
homunculus, is too great, the tension is uncontrollable because it is
undifferentiated. It becomes like a telephone pole with three guy wires
at right angles. Without the fourth, failure is certain.
The opposing muscles of the a and m fingers share a common tendon, so
they necessarily act against each other. Because of that, they cannot
become weakened in spite of use as the opposing muscle of the index can.
1. Strengthen the opposing muscles in the hand through exerrcise.
2. Retrain the hand by practicing strokes.
Heavy (and light) rasgeado is the best way, perhaps the only way, to
strenghten the opposing muscles in the right hand to the degree
necessary. Pianists afflicted with this problem need to get a guitar,
learn a few chords, and practice heavy rasgeado also, because they can't
do it playing piano. We guitarists are very lucky, ;-)
David: Lately I've been thinking about fixing my FD. (At 62, it's now or never.) Your thoughts from 2009, quoted here, are interesting. Reading your more recent posts, however, you seem resigned to FD. I'd like to know your latest thoughts on FD, especially with regard to older players. Thanks. -John
tom g
2016-11-27 21:49:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by JPD
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
With age muscles tend to become weaker and less resoponsive. If you are
skilled and efficient, you exercise opposing muscles less and less. When
the lack of exertion in the opposing muscle passes a certain threshold,
the homunculus (the brain's body/brain image) is no longer able to
coordinate the motion. Sensing weakness, the homunculus tenses the
system to provide strength, both immediately and through exercise. If
the weakness or lack of skill, which are the same thing to the
homunculus, is too great, the tension is uncontrollable because it is
undifferentiated. It becomes like a telephone pole with three guy wires
at right angles. Without the fourth, failure is certain.
The opposing muscles of the a and m fingers share a common tendon, so
they necessarily act against each other. Because of that, they cannot
become weakened in spite of use as the opposing muscle of the index can.
1. Strengthen the opposing muscles in the hand through exerrcise.
2. Retrain the hand by practicing strokes.
Heavy (and light) rasgeado is the best way, perhaps the only way, to
strenghten the opposing muscles in the right hand to the degree
necessary. Pianists afflicted with this problem need to get a guitar,
learn a few chords, and practice heavy rasgeado also, because they can't
do it playing piano. We guitarists are very lucky, ;-)
David: Lately I've been thinking about fixing my FD. (At 62, it's now or never.) Your thoughts from 2009, quoted here, are interesting. Reading your more recent posts, however, you seem resigned to FD. I'd like to know your latest thoughts on FD, especially with regard to older players. Thanks. -John
JPD, there is a mountain of information about this from a profesional (Dofpic) on the Delcamp website. http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=91193&start=90

tom g
JPD
2016-11-27 22:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Thx,Tom. I had a 1hr Skype interview with the Barcelona specialist last year. Very promising. A trip to Barcelona will happen as soon as I can manage it.
tom g
2016-11-27 23:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by JPD
Thx,Tom. I had a 1hr Skype interview with the Barcelona specialist last year. Very promising. A trip to Barcelona will happen as soon as I can manage it.
Although it might be more expensive, if it was my money, I would begin with Victor Candia. I think he lives in Switzerland but he often teaches at the university in Alicante (http://www.master-guitarra-alicante.com/en/home-5/).

tom g
Matt Faunce
2016-11-28 09:22:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by JPD
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
With age muscles tend to become weaker and less resoponsive. If you are
skilled and efficient, you exercise opposing muscles less and less. When
the lack of exertion in the opposing muscle passes a certain threshold,
the homunculus (the brain's body/brain image) is no longer able to
coordinate the motion. Sensing weakness, the homunculus tenses the
system to provide strength, both immediately and through exercise. If
the weakness or lack of skill, which are the same thing to the
homunculus, is too great, the tension is uncontrollable because it is
undifferentiated. It becomes like a telephone pole with three guy wires
at right angles. Without the fourth, failure is certain.
The opposing muscles of the a and m fingers share a common tendon, so
they necessarily act against each other. Because of that, they cannot
become weakened in spite of use as the opposing muscle of the index can.
1. Strengthen the opposing muscles in the hand through exerrcise.
2. Retrain the hand by practicing strokes.
Heavy (and light) rasgeado is the best way, perhaps the only way, to
strenghten the opposing muscles in the right hand to the degree
necessary. Pianists afflicted with this problem need to get a guitar,
learn a few chords, and practice heavy rasgeado also, because they can't
do it playing piano. We guitarists are very lucky, ;-)
David: Lately I've been thinking about fixing my FD. (At 62, it's now or never.) Your thoughts from 2009, quoted here, are interesting. Reading your more recent posts, however, you seem resigned to FD. I'd like to know your latest thoughts on FD, especially with regard to older players. Thanks. -John
This lecture on body image and mind/body interactions, by Prof. V.S.
Ramachandran, might be useful.


--
Matt
David Raleigh Arnold
2016-11-28 20:43:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 13:28:47 -0800 (PST)
Post by JPD
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
With age muscles tend to become weaker and less resoponsive. If you are
skilled and efficient, you exercise opposing muscles less and less. When
the lack of exertion in the opposing muscle passes a certain threshold,
the homunculus (the brain's body/brain image) is no longer able to
coordinate the motion. Sensing weakness, the homunculus tenses the
system to provide strength, both immediately and through exercise. If
the weakness or lack of skill, which are the same thing to the
homunculus, is too great, the tension is uncontrollable because it is
undifferentiated. It becomes like a telephone pole with three guy wires
at right angles. Without the fourth, failure is certain.
The opposing muscles of the a and m fingers share a common tendon, so
they necessarily act against each other. Because of that, they cannot
become weakened in spite of use as the opposing muscle of the index can.
1. Strengthen the opposing muscles in the hand through exerrcise.
2. Retrain the hand by practicing strokes.
Heavy (and light) rasgeado is the best way, perhaps the only way, to
strenghten the opposing muscles in the right hand to the degree
necessary. Pianists afflicted with this problem need to get a guitar,
learn a few chords, and practice heavy rasgeado also, because they can't
do it playing piano. We guitarists are very lucky, ;-)
David: Lately I've been thinking about fixing my FD. (At 62,
it's now or never.) Your thoughts from 2009, quoted here,
are interesting. Reading your more recent posts, however,
you seem resigned to FD. I'd like to know your latest thoughts
on FD, especially with regard to older players. Thanks. -John

I've become convinced that FD is similar to post traumatic stress
injury. Therefore, it has nothing much to do with the present
state of muscles at all, but what I wrote is not wrong in terms
of falling prey to it.

The cause, IMO, is extreme fatigue. The brain begins to respond
inappropriately when you play, as I wrote, but training to
forget the inappropriate response is a long and difficult
path. Mark Twain wrote that you can't throw bad habits
out the window; you have to walk them down the stairs.

Playing *very* slowly with complete control and attention,
especially to the feel of the strings, is doing some good,
but I despair of a complete cure.

First, I do a few DGT scales, whisper quiet, all appoggiato.
Appogiato because there is more contact with the strings,
and therefore more feel. In the unlikely event that
I improve enough, I will go to m-a tirato and later
a-i tirato and even m-i tirato. Warmup is a really
big deal.

I found a way to make Segovia's(?) maj7 chords into
an exercise on touch, developing the ability to double
the power on any one voice in the chord
*no arpeggios!* and to
play it enough sooner to make it the leading voice
but not enough sooner that the chord does not
seem simultaneous. I use the Carcassi Method
first "Prelude" routinely as I wrote before.
A lot of my own stuff is suitable for touch
work because the left hand is so rudimentary.

You can develop the ability to hear other players
when they play a chord properly. I heard Narciso
Ypes hit a few in Sor's 24 on YouTube, but
he was not consistent. You'll never hear it
from Segovia or any other arpeggiators.

Tarrega's arr. of Chopin's prelude in C# minor
is super.

Anythiog very slow is good, no matter how
difficult.

FD also bothers me when typing or using the
mousepad. A day with too much guitar and
computer without breaks caused me to have it.

Keep in mind that you are learning to forget
something. That's what makes it so hard.

You have an opportunity:

1. To learn some great slow stuff. Schubert,
Albinoni.

2. To apply timbre/orchestration to great
music. You must be a fanatic about that.
It's not spontaneous, any more than the
artist buying tubes of paint is spontaneous.
If you're not consistent, it goes to waste
Compare Ypes' Poulenc Sarabande to others.
Just a bit more consistency would make a
big difference, not that there wasn't any
already. He seems to be the only guy who
understood the piece to any extent.

3. To learn touch. Tempo means nothing in
relation to that.

Kindest regards, Rale
dsi1
2016-12-03 23:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by JPD
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
With age muscles tend to become weaker and less resoponsive. If you are
skilled and efficient, you exercise opposing muscles less and less. When
the lack of exertion in the opposing muscle passes a certain threshold,
the homunculus (the brain's body/brain image) is no longer able to
coordinate the motion. Sensing weakness, the homunculus tenses the
system to provide strength, both immediately and through exercise. If
the weakness or lack of skill, which are the same thing to the
homunculus, is too great, the tension is uncontrollable because it is
undifferentiated. It becomes like a telephone pole with three guy wires
at right angles. Without the fourth, failure is certain.
The opposing muscles of the a and m fingers share a common tendon, so
they necessarily act against each other. Because of that, they cannot
become weakened in spite of use as the opposing muscle of the index can.
1. Strengthen the opposing muscles in the hand through exerrcise.
2. Retrain the hand by practicing strokes.
Heavy (and light) rasgeado is the best way, perhaps the only way, to
strenghten the opposing muscles in the right hand to the degree
necessary. Pianists afflicted with this problem need to get a guitar,
learn a few chords, and practice heavy rasgeado also, because they can't
do it playing piano. We guitarists are very lucky, ;-)
David: Lately I've been thinking about fixing my FD. (At 62, it's now or never.) Your thoughts from 2009, quoted here, are interesting. Reading your more recent posts, however, you seem resigned to FD. I'd like to know your latest thoughts on FD, especially with regard to older players. Thanks. -John
I wouldn't about it too much. Nobody can do the things they did when they were 16. Your brain and body is mostly in fall-apart mode and this will continue for the rest of your life. All these things are perfectly natural and you're just going to have to accept playing at a reduced level.
Murdick
2016-11-29 00:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
No one can tell you anything without a video.
David Raleigh Arnold
2016-11-30 17:53:01 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 16:20:54 -0800 (PST)
Post by Murdick
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
No one can tell you anything without a video.
You have FD. Welcome to the club!

IMO, it's a brain injury similar to PTSI. Fixing
it involves *forgetting* the inappropriate
responses. There is some connection to the
sense of touch. I just did a long message
to Dimick on the topic.

There are physicians who will experiment on you
for a healthy fee. Kindest regards, Rale

Do some whisper quiet practice. Learn touch.
wollybyrde
2016-11-30 20:53:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
It's from sitting on the computer all day, clicking a mouse
Lucas Diniz
2021-11-06 20:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by y***@att.com
Hello to all!. I play classical guitar for many years and wonder if
anybody has similar problem ... In the last several years I noticed
that my index finger of right hand slowly is loosing it's mobility and
speed. At this point I can play much faster with m-a combination
rather than i-m or i-a. It's really very upsetting - I have to relearn
many pieces. If I try to play a lot of exercises for i-m combination I
start experiencing almost a pain in the place where index finger
connects to the hand ...
Couple of years ago I went to a hand surgeon, but he really didn't
find any problems (he thinks that maybe it's arthritis originating in
the neck).
Very frustrating ... Any ideas or suggestions?
Regards,
Yuri
Hi Yuri,

What you described is EXACTLY the problem I have been struggling for the past few years. The lost of dexterity and the pain between index and middle finger.

I wonder with you had any progress since 2009? I`m struggling a lot with this, and I think you are the first person that described exactly the same problem I`m experiencing.


I would be very happy in hearing from you.

Kind regards,

Lucas Campara

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