Discussion:
C. Debussy - "Clair de Lune," Solo
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Che
2013-08-14 09:40:44 UTC
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Yes, Kent will strongly object to her/his right hand position

The arrangement can be purchased at the site.



Margarita Escarpa w/ $30,000.00 Mathias Damman

David Raleigh Arnold
2013-08-14 18:22:56 UTC
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Post by Che
http://youtu.be/fFLPdxdvEXk
Yes, Kent will strongly object to her/his right hand position
The arrangement can be purchased at the site.
Margarita Escarpa w/ $30,000.00 Mathias Damman
http://youtu.be/9nV4ML1RLtI
Pretty damn good. I'll still take a guitar duet version.

The lack of vibrato on the melody line puzzles me. Without more
vocal expression, why not let the piano do it? I don't have to
guess what it would sound like with vibrato, having heard Presti
and Lagoya play it.


After all, there was no such thing as piano music before Debussy.
That realization came to me after hearing attempts to arrange it
for orchestra. Not even Ravel, a consummate orchestrator, could
pull it off, IMO. I have never researched to find out what known
music critics have had to say about that...

Rale
--
For All Guitar Beginners: The pages of very easy solos missing
from all of the published guitar methods of others.
For All Guitarists: solos, duets, and peerless guitar exercises
David Raleigh Arnold http://www.openguitar.com
John Nguyen
2013-08-14 18:35:03 UTC
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Post by David Raleigh Arnold
After all, there was no such thing as piano music before Debussy.
David Raleigh Arnold
Wow! Your musical arrogance certainty has no bound! I hope you know how to play the piano and some of its repertoire , preferrable something before Debussy :-)
David Raleigh Arnold
2013-08-17 14:05:02 UTC
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Post by John Nguyen
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
After all, there was no such thing as piano music before Debussy.
David Raleigh Arnold
Wow! Your musical arrogance certainty has no bound! I hope you know how
to play the piano and some of its repertoire , preferrable something
before Debussy :-)
I don't get it. Arrogant for an opinion? If it were libellous I
could understand it, but why insult me for the opinion that all of
Beethoven's piano music, for example, can be orchestrated at least
passably but some of Debussy's cannot, ever? This is not a negative
criticism of anyone, and it has to do with listening to the music,
not playing any particular instrument.

How many of Legnani's "Caprices in all Keys", HVL's 20 Etudes, or
Sor/Segovia's 20 could be orchestrated? (Sor/Segovia #14 has been,
I've heard it.) Which ones? Why? Is the guitar potentially an
orchestra? [yes] If not, why not? Is the piano potentially an
orchestra? [no] If not, why not?

Answering any of these questions will prove your own arrogance.
;-)

Regards, Rale
--
For All Guitar Beginners: The pages of very easy solos missing
from all of the published guitar methods of others.
For All Guitarists: solos, duets, and peerless guitar exercises
David Raleigh Arnold http://www.openguitar.com
John Nguyen
2013-08-17 16:10:34 UTC
Permalink
I don't get it. Arrogant for an opinion? If it were libellous I could understand it, but why insult me for the opinion that all of Beethoven's piano music, for example, can be orchestrated at least passably but some of Debussy's cannot, ever?
No insult intended! However, it was represented as more of a statement of fact than one's opinion, which prompted a comment. Now you've clarified it, you are surely entitled to your poinion. However, it fairly obvious to me that your musical perception on orchestral repertoire is much different from mine. Let's stay at that.
This is not a negative criticism of anyone, and it has to do with listening to the music, not playing any particular instrument. How many of Legnani's "Caprices in all Keys", HVL's 20 Etudes, or Sor/Segovia's 20 could be orchestrated? (Sor/Segovia #14 has been, I've heard it.) Which ones? Why? Is the guitar potentially an orchestra? [yes] If not, why not? Is the piano potentially an orchestra? [no] If not, why not? Answering any of these questions will prove your own arrogance. ;-) Regards, Rale
Again, here is your opinion re: guitar and piano, and I will try not to engage into whether yours is similar or dissimilar to mine.
Cheers,

John
JPD
2013-08-17 22:49:34 UTC
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Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Pretty damn good.
It really is. I played the Jack Marshall arrangement for many years. It was a lot harder than this one (some extreme stretches), but I finally quit playing it -- not because of the difficulty, but because it was just inadequate. Its strong points were beautiful, but its weak points were just to weak. I just couldn't abide the "empty spots." I'm guessing Parkening (or his handlers) felt the same way about it, since he never recorded it.

But this arrangement is a very nice adaptation. It works as a whole. I would play this for the public (if I could!).
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The lack of vibrato on the melody line puzzles me. Without more
vocal expression, why not let the piano do it?
Prolly because he's a guitar player? ;-)

But seriously, you made this same comment about Yamashita's playing here:

http://www.guitarist.com/blog/2011/03/yamashita-song-compostela.html

In Yamashita's case, I'm sure the decision was absolutely intentional. He's a fantastic guitarist who thinks of everything. He played those notes w/o vibrato because that's exactly the effect he wanted.

In Sabuncuoglu's case I'm less sure, but he does use plenty of subtle vibrato throughout the piece, so I'm going to guess he's given it some thought. I think it sounds perfectly fine just the way he's done it. Viva la différence.

And speaking of great duos, Bream and Williams did a bang-up job with this, too:


Che
2013-08-17 23:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by JPD
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Pretty damn good.
It really is. I played the Jack Marshall arrangement for many years. It was a lot harder than this one (some extreme stretches), but I finally quit playing it -- not because of the difficulty, but because it was just inadequate. Its strong points were beautiful, but its weak points were just to weak. I just couldn't abide the "empty spots." I'm guessing Parkening (or his handlers) felt the same way about it, since he never recorded it.
But this arrangement is a very nice adaptation. It works as a whole. I would play this for the public (if I could!).
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The lack of vibrato on the melody line puzzles me. Without more
vocal expression, why not let the piano do it?
Prolly because he's a guitar player? ;-)
http://www.guitarist.com/blog/2011/03/yamashita-song-compostela.html
In Yamashita's case, I'm sure the decision was absolutely intentional. He's a fantastic guitarist who thinks of everything. He played those notes w/o vibrato because that's exactly the effect he wanted.
In Sabuncuoglu's case I'm less sure, but he does use plenty of subtle vibrato throughout the piece, so I'm going to guess he's given it some thought. I think it sounds perfectly fine just the way he's done it. Viva la différence.
http://youtu.be/ZNVwTPSJAmI
But no one/two has ever topped this:


There are three other arrangements of this wonderful music not commonly known. . .none of which tops this.

Che'
JPD
2013-08-18 09:01:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
Post by JPD
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Pretty damn good.
It really is. I played the Jack Marshall arrangement for many years. It was a lot harder than this one (some extreme stretches), but I finally quit playing it -- not because of the difficulty, but because it was just inadequate. Its strong points were beautiful, but its weak points were just to weak. I just couldn't abide the "empty spots." I'm guessing Parkening (or his handlers) felt the same way about it, since he never recorded it.
But this arrangement is a very nice adaptation. It works as a whole. I would play this for the public (if I could!).
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The lack of vibrato on the melody line puzzles me. Without more
vocal expression, why not let the piano do it?
Prolly because he's a guitar player? ;-)
http://www.guitarist.com/blog/2011/03/yamashita-song-compostela.html
In Yamashita's case, I'm sure the decision was absolutely intentional. He's a fantastic guitarist who thinks of everything. He played those notes w/o vibrato because that's exactly the effect he wanted.
In Sabuncuoglu's case I'm less sure, but he does use plenty of subtle vibrato throughout the piece, so I'm going to guess he's given it some thought. I think it sounds perfectly fine just the way he's done it. Viva la différence.
http://youtu.be/ZNVwTPSJAmI
http://youtu.be/i3BXJs2VcYo
You betcha. It's still the standard. Gorgeous stuff.
JPD
2013-08-18 09:41:36 UTC
Permalink
By the way, when were you sharing air with The Great White Father (Theodore Norman)? I was hitchhiking in from Venice Beach when I was ~15, making it 1969 or so. A year prior, I was showing up at night school at Venice High to audit classes by Peter Kraus, who was another TN character. He was teaching generic "folk guitar" there, but after class he'd teach Bach and Dowland to anyone interested. He pretty much gave me my start. After awhile he suggested I show up at UCLA for an evening class with TN -- which I did. One of my fond memories was the class playing VL Etude 8, in unison, which was fabulously rich stuff for me. Darryl Denning, Mark Byrd, and Peter were there.

Years later, when I'd moved to Portland, a funny thing happened. I was browsing through a sheet music store and I overheard an employee talking about TN. I engaged her in conversation and found out she'd been his secretary. So I asked her if she'd heard of a flamenco thing of his called "Albacinatas." That was a piece of his I'd won a prize with way back when -- I don't remember exactly, but it was 1st or 2nd place in the 1971 or '72 Southwest Youth Music Festival. (I've got a signed parchment in a box somewhere with the details.)

Well, she said she'd look through her files (this was just after he died) and send me the music if she had a copy. Well, by god, a week later the piece showed up in the mail, hand-written by TN. That took me back about 30 years. Getting close to 50 years now....


Anyway, when were you there? I know you were one of the private guys, but which year? Just curious.
Che
2013-08-18 12:25:14 UTC
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David Raleigh Arnold
2013-08-18 14:49:38 UTC
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On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 16:40:36 -0700, Che wrote: [on Clair de Lune]

I still have it on vinyl someplace. The sound you linked doesn't do it
justice. A copy of a copy? IAC it may be my all-time favorite cut. IMO it
takes more than one guitar to render such opaque harmony, and the thick
chords are essential. Not enough strings and fingers on one guitar. I
believe there's an arrangement hiked up a whole step. I haven't heard it,
but I would think it might sound even better a skosh higher on two
guitars. Still, I doubt it could be played better by any others than P&L.
The music especially fits their style, both in the exploitation of the
middle of a string, which extends their range of timbre, and their
Mediterranean vibrato, which adds a personal yet mysterious quality which
a piano cannot emulate.

Rale
--
For All Guitar Beginners: The pages of very easy solos missing
from all of the published guitar methods of others.
For All Guitarists: solos, duets, and peerless guitar exercises
David Raleigh Arnold http://www.openguitar.com
Che
2013-08-18 15:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 16:40:36 -0700, Che wrote: [on Clair de Lune]
I still have it on vinyl someplace. The sound you linked doesn't do it
justice. A copy of a copy? <
That's easy, post a better one.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
but I would think it might sound even better a skosh higher on two
guitars. Still, I doubt it could be played better by any others than P&L. <
Like the Bach Prelude in C Maj. transposed to D Maj. and that three string barre with the left thumb?
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The music especially fits their style, both in the exploitation of the
middle of a string, which extends their range of timbre, and their
Mediterranean vibrato<
It's a matter of a little string bending, that's all, but a mystery
if you don't understand it. I could point it out to you in a heartbeat, the question is WHY?
David Raleigh Arnold
2013-08-18 17:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 16:40:36 -0700, Che wrote: [on Clair de Lune]
I still have it on vinyl someplace. The sound you linked doesn't do it
justice. A copy of a copy? <
That's easy, post a better one.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
but I would think it might sound even better a skosh higher on two
guitars. Still, I doubt it could be played better by any others than P&L. <
Like the Bach Prelude in C Maj. transposed to D Maj. and that three
string barre with the left thumb?
No, nothing like that. The 1st prelude from WTC is much better in
F, when it is transposed first down and then up. F is near the
middle, and it works very well. The piece has too much range of
pitch, and the best sound for guitar is lower than the first half
and higher than the second.
Post by Che
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The music especially fits their style, both in the exploitation of the
middle of a string, which extends their range of timbre, and their
Mediterranean vibrato<
It's a matter of a little string bending, that's all,
No, not at all. It's a matter of the CPS of the vibrato, which is
personal and cultural, having nothing to do with technique. You
should have been able to understand that. It was not that unclear.

At Santiago, 50-plus years ago, I heard or overheard a tableful of
people arguing over which vibrato technique was better, along or
across the string. I just kept moving. "You can't fix stupid."