Discussion:
J.Bream's Famous Rubio Lute For Sale
(too old to reply)
David Schramm
2003-09-29 02:39:56 UTC
Permalink
For Sale: Julian Bream's 1967 Jose Rubio 8 course Renaissance Lute #127.
This is the lute found in the book by Tony Palmer, "Life on the Road." pp.
120, 131.

It is also found on the cover of Classical Guitar magazine June1990


This is the lute found on the following recordings:

Discography(*)
Julian Bream:
Elizabethan Lute Songs, (R.C.A.), 1970
The Woods so Wild, (R.C.A.), 1972
Concertos for Lute and Orchestra, (R.C.A.) ,1974
The Lute Music of John Dowland, (R.C.A.), 1976
(*Source: Palmer pp.212, 213, 214, 221)

Appraised at $20,000

Interested parties contact:
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA USA
E-mail: ***@schrammguitars.com
Web Site: http://schrammguitars.com
Tony Morris
2003-09-29 05:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Schramm
For Sale: Julian Bream's 1967 Jose Rubio 8 course Renaissance Lute #127.
This is the lute found in the book by Tony Palmer, "Life on the Road." pp.
120, 131.
Appraised at $20,000
Is that all?

I don't know the going rate for lutes, but it sure seems to me that
such an important and historical instrument like that should be worth
at least twice that- or even around $50,000 or more. Sounds like a
real deal for someone.

Tm
Tony Morris
2003-09-29 05:56:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Schramm
For Sale: Julian Bream's 1967 Jose Rubio 8 course Renaissance Lute #127.
This is the lute found in the book by Tony Palmer, "Life on the Road." pp.
120, 131.
Appraised at $20,000
Is that all?

I don't know the going rate for lutes, but it sure seems to me that
such an important and historical instrument like that should be worth
at least twice that- or even around $50,000 or more. Sounds like a
real deal for someone.

Tm
David Kilpatrick
2003-09-29 09:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Morris
Post by David Schramm
For Sale: Julian Bream's 1967 Jose Rubio 8 course Renaissance Lute #127.
This is the lute found in the book by Tony Palmer, "Life on the Road." pp.
120, 131.
Appraised at $20,000
Is that all?
I don't know the going rate for lutes, but it sure seems to me that
such an important and historical instrument like that should be worth
at least twice that- or even around $50,000 or more. Sounds like a
real deal for someone.
1967, no matter what maker - new lute luthiery lacked some of the
knowledge which has transformed lutes since. Or so lute players tell me.
Expectations have changed and the target sound for a ren lute is now
not the same as then. I have no idea why - maybe non-invasive
investigative techniques have told builders a lot more about museum
pieces. Or maybe more lutes have been built and they have learned a lot.

Considering that real historic lutes etc are worth much less then they
should be - you can pick up instruments from the reign of George 1 for
about $500 in Britain, if you're after some types of cittern - $20,000
sounds like a price for a good working instrument with some modern
recording history.

Peculiar situation, lutes. Most modern, well made, concert/recording
quality lutes I've been offered (and never said yes to!) are around
$2,000-5,000 ex-owner private sale. Yet many lesser bits of steel string
guitar luthiery are twice that, let alone classical guitar luthiery. And
the lute must be far more time consuming and difficult to construct.

David
Lutester
2003-09-29 15:07:27 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:13:19 +0000 (UTC), David Kilpatrick
Post by David Kilpatrick
Post by Tony Morris
Post by David Schramm
For Sale: Julian Bream's 1967 Jose Rubio 8 course Renaissance Lute #127.
This is the lute found in the book by Tony Palmer, "Life on the Road." pp.
120, 131.
Appraised at $20,000
Is that all?
I don't know the going rate for lutes, but it sure seems to me that
such an important and historical instrument like that should be worth
at least twice that- or even around $50,000 or more. Sounds like a
real deal for someone.
1967, no matter what maker - new lute luthiery lacked some of the
knowledge which has transformed lutes since. Or so lute players tell me.
Expectations have changed and the target sound for a ren lute is now
not the same as then. I have no idea why - maybe non-invasive
investigative techniques have told builders a lot more about museum
pieces. Or maybe more lutes have been built and they have learned a lot.
In 1967, there were some emerging luthiers using the older principles
of construction quite successfully. Most were affiliated with the
early musicke groups rather than the classical guitar groups. Arnold
Dolmetsch began to make copies of early instruments (viols, recorders,
lutes) in the early part of the 20th century. He used to play a
vintage Harton lute in his own music making and many others wanted him
to make copies.

Much of the actual knowledge of historical construction came from
museum curators and the reconstruction the did of the old museum
examples that were in pieces in their shops. The made and recorded
measurements and plans, etc. Friedmann Hellwig was one of those that
made such plans and shared them with others in the early '60s.

Makers such as Van der Waals, Van der Geest, Zanetti, Barber,
Gottlieb, and Lowe stated making high quality lutes based on those
early researches. After X-rays became available, existing lutes that
were not in pieces could be examined and measurements taken. Detailed
plans were made available for relatively little cost through the
various luthier societies.

Robert Lundberg's book on historical lute construction is a good place
to learn more on those early efforts.

The 'guitar based' lutes by Hauser I, Papazian, and a host of East and
West German makers were comparatively heavy in construction and very
guitar like in their sound. I played some of those things and they
were really clunkers even with a guitar technique. The Hauser was an
absolute tank and sounded like a bathtub with strings. The Papazian
was prettier, but sounded the same.

The Rubio examples were much better, but they were still not the light
and fragile lutes being made today after the historical models. I
have an 8ch Rubio from 1965 (#111) and an 8ch Kazuo Satoh (one of
Rubio's apprentices) from 10 years later and the difference is
startling.

Rubio evidently had some ideas about why the lute players were
demanding lighter and more historical instruments. He contended that
the early musicke crowd had in it many players that had little or no
classical guitar background and therefore had not developed the hand
strength to handle the heavier lutes. It's an interesting theory,
but not "fact based" as they say.
Post by David Kilpatrick
Considering that real historic lutes etc are worth much less then they
should be - you can pick up instruments from the reign of George 1 for
about $500 in Britain, if you're after some types of cittern - $20,000
sounds like a price for a good working instrument with some modern
recording history.
Peculiar situation, lutes. Most modern, well made, concert/recording
quality lutes I've been offered (and never said yes to!) are around
$2,000-5,000 ex-owner private sale. Yet many lesser bits of steel string
guitar luthiery are twice that, let alone classical guitar luthiery. And
the lute must be far more time consuming and difficult to construct.
True, true. I still don't understand that difference.

Robert
Matanya Ophee
2003-09-29 16:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutester
Post by David Kilpatrick
Peculiar situation, lutes. Most modern, well made, concert/recording
quality lutes I've been offered (and never said yes to!) are around
$2,000-5,000 ex-owner private sale. Yet many lesser bits of steel string
guitar luthiery are twice that, let alone classical guitar luthiery. And
the lute must be far more time consuming and difficult to construct.
True, true. I still don't understand that difference.
The law of supply and demand. Capitalism at work. As for the chances
of a real contemporary lutenist buying this lute, I suspect it is
between nil and zilch, for any price. As a performance instrument it
has no value in a HIP climate that considered Bream's contributions to
the propagation of lute culture as a bad thing. Go to the Lute List
Archive and search for Bream to find some of the most colorful
language in his regard.

The only possible purchaser of this instrument would be a museum or a
collector who might be interested in it _because_ of the Bream
connection. Or the seller might consider _donating_ it to a museum, in
exchange for a nice fat tax deduction.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
Paul Magnussen
2003-09-29 16:25:49 UTC
Permalink
The Hauser [lute] was an absolute tank and sounded like a bathtub
with strings.
If it's anything like the one I was once offered -- or the same one -- then I
concur. I'd always wanted a lute, but the action on this thing made it
virtually unplayable.
Rubio evidently had some ideas about why the lute players were
demanding lighter and more historical instruments. He contended
that the early musicke crowd had in it many players that had little
or no classical guitar background and therefore had not developed
the hand strength to handle the heavier lutes. It's an interesting
theory, but not "fact based" as they say.
From an interview I did with Tony Rooley in '88:

"But now that I've played the lute consistently for nearly twenty years, and
hardly touched a modern guitar -- when I pick one up I haven't got the strength
in my left hand to hold down a chord: because it's strung under such tension,
and despite the fact that the lute has double the number of strings, or more."

Paul Magnussen

To send me e-mail, adjust aol's name in the signature.
Lutester
2003-09-29 17:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
The law of supply and demand. Capitalism at work. As for the chances
of a real contemporary lutenist buying this lute, I suspect it is
between nil and zilch, for any price.
I have to disagree......particularly with the 'any price' part. If
you mean a contemporary lutenist that makes his/her living at it, then
you're probably right. They don't have that kind of $$. An older,
more financially set, lute player with fond memories of his first
J. Bream lute record might grab it fast. Maybe not for the $20k, but
perhaps for as much as a new Ruck.

I would get it, but I already have a Rubio lute.
Post by Matanya Ophee
As a performance instrument it
has no value in a HIP climate that considered Bream's contributions to
the propagation of lute culture as a bad thing. Go to the Lute List
Archive and search for Bream to find some of the most colorful
language in his regard.
Again with the anti-lute culture thing, MO. I went to the archive
#1 and so far all I can find about Bream are things like " I got
interested in the lute when I heard a Julian Bream record."

Maybe you should quote some of those offensive passages. I can't find
any, but their archiving program is a bit 'old style.'
Post by Matanya Ophee
The only possible purchaser of this instrument would be a museum or a
collector who might be interested in it _because_ of the Bream
connection. Or the seller might consider _donating_ it to a museum, in
exchange for a nice fat tax deduction.
It will be an interesting sale in any case.

Robert
Matanya Ophee
2003-09-29 18:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutester
Post by Matanya Ophee
The law of supply and demand. Capitalism at work. As for the chances
of a real contemporary lutenist buying this lute, I suspect it is
between nil and zilch, for any price.
I have to disagree......particularly with the 'any price' part. If
you mean a contemporary lutenist that makes his/her living at it, then
you're probably right. They don't have that kind of $$. An older,
more financially set, lute player with fond memories of his first
J. Bream lute record might grab it fast. Maybe not for the $20k, but
perhaps for as much as a new Ruck.
We do not disagree. That lute player you mention falls into the
category of the collector who would be interested.
Post by Lutester
Post by Matanya Ophee
As a performance instrument it
has no value in a HIP climate that considered Bream's contributions to
the propagation of lute culture as a bad thing. Go to the Lute List
Archive and search for Bream to find some of the most colorful
language in his regard.
Again with the anti-lute culture thing, MO. I went to the archive
#1 and so far all I can find about Bream are things like " I got
interested in the lute when I heard a Julian Bream record."
Maybe you should quote some of those offensive passages. I can't find
any, but their archiving program is a bit 'old style.'
I shouldn't. I have a lot of these messages archived right here, but
frankly, fanning the flames is not going to be a productive line of
work for me.

There was one particular virulent thread on this issue and the
statement "I got interested in the lute when I heard a Julian Bream
record" was made by me.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
Lutester
2003-09-29 18:48:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
There was one particular virulent thread on this issue and the
statement "I got interested in the lute when I heard a Julian Bream
record" was made by me.
At least in the first archives, you are not alone. There were many
with that theme.

R.
Paul Magnussen
2003-09-30 01:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
An older, more financially set, lute player with fond memories of
his first J. Bream lute record might grab it fast. Maybe not for
the $20k, but perhaps for as much as a new Ruck.
We do not disagree. That lute player you mention falls into the
category of the collector who would be interested.
Not so, MO. As a guitarist who loves lute music but has neither the time nor
the inclination to revise his technique from scratch, I might well have bought
it at one time. And I don't give a toss about collecting.
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Matanya Ophee
As a performance instrument it
has no value in a HIP climate
Neither do I give a toss about HIP, except insofar as it contributes to
musicality; by which I mean, if I have to choose between A HIP performance and
an enjoyable one, it's no contest as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not the
only one who feels this way.
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Matanya Ophee
that considered Bream's
contributions to the propagation of lute culture as a bad thing. Go
to the Lute List Archive and search for Bream to find some of
the most colorful language in his regard.
ROFL. It's always the musical pygmies that produce this sort of thing. Look
at what Nigel North says about Julian Bream (or vice versa, for that matter) if
you want an expert's opinion.


Paul Magnussen

To send me e-mail, adjust aol's name in the signature.
Stephan Olbertz
2003-10-02 09:17:38 UTC
Permalink
Matanya,

as far as I can see, Julian Bream is still hold in high esteem among
the members of the Lute Society, as you shurely know. He gave a talk
and a highly inspiring masterclass on recent LS meetings, and all
seemed to agree that it should not have been his last teaching there.

Regards,

Stephan
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Lutester
Post by David Kilpatrick
Peculiar situation, lutes. Most modern, well made, concert/recording
quality lutes I've been offered (and never said yes to!) are around
$2,000-5,000 ex-owner private sale. Yet many lesser bits of steel string
guitar luthiery are twice that, let alone classical guitar luthiery. And
the lute must be far more time consuming and difficult to construct.
True, true. I still don't understand that difference.
The law of supply and demand. Capitalism at work. As for the chances
of a real contemporary lutenist buying this lute, I suspect it is
between nil and zilch, for any price. As a performance instrument it
has no value in a HIP climate that considered Bream's contributions to
the propagation of lute culture as a bad thing. Go to the Lute List
Archive and search for Bream to find some of the most colorful
language in his regard.
The only possible purchaser of this instrument would be a museum or a
collector who might be interested in it _because_ of the Bream
connection. Or the seller might consider _donating_ it to a museum, in
exchange for a nice fat tax deduction.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
Gregor auf dem Stein
2003-10-02 12:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Olbertz
Matanya,
as far as I can see, Julian Bream is still hold in high esteem among
the members of the Lute Society, as you surely know. He gave a talk
and a highly inspiring masterclass on recent LS meetings, and all
seemed to agree that it should not have been his last teaching there.
Regards,
Stephan
In fact, I do not recall any bile for Bream on the lute-net, on my memory.
I have even named one of my sons Julian, in part after JB.
RT
______________
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org
Post by Stephan Olbertz
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Lutester
Post by David Kilpatrick
Peculiar situation, lutes. Most modern, well made, concert/recording
quality lutes I've been offered (and never said yes to!) are around
$2,000-5,000 ex-owner private sale. Yet many lesser bits of steel string
guitar luthiery are twice that, let alone classical guitar luthiery. And
the lute must be far more time consuming and difficult to construct.
True, true. I still don't understand that difference.
The law of supply and demand. Capitalism at work. As for the chances
of a real contemporary lutenist buying this lute, I suspect it is
between nil and zilch, for any price. As a performance instrument it
has no value in a HIP climate that considered Bream's contributions to
the propagation of lute culture as a bad thing. Go to the Lute List
Archive and search for Bream to find some of the most colorful
language in his regard.
The only possible purchaser of this instrument would be a museum or a
collector who might be interested in it _because_ of the Bream
connection. Or the seller might consider _donating_ it to a museum, in
exchange for a nice fat tax deduction.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
Paul Magnussen
2003-09-29 16:18:13 UTC
Permalink
The Hauser [lute] was an absolute tank and sounded like a bathtub
with strings.
If it's anything like the one I was once offered -- or the same one -- then I
concur. I'd always wanted a lute, but the action on this thing made it
virtually unplayable. I seem to remember it eventually went to Beverley Maher
in New York, but that's as much as I know.
Rubio evidently had some ideas about why the lute players were
demanding lighter and more historical instruments. He contended
that the early musicke crowd had in it many players that had little
or no classical guitar background and therefore had not developed
the hand strength to handle the heavier lutes. It's an interesting
theory, but not "fact based" as they say.
From an interview I did with Tony Rooley in '88:

"But now that I've played the lute consistently for nearly twenty years, and
hardly touched a modern guitar -- when I pick one up I haven't got the strength
in my left hand to hold down a chord: because it's strung under such tension,
and despite the fact that the lute has double the number of strings, or more."

Paul Magnussen

To send me e-mail, adjust aol's name in the signature.
k***@gmail.com
2020-08-17 15:12:05 UTC
Permalink
I owned and played a papazian in the 1970s. My teacher had a Rubio. They were quite different, the Rubio being more lute than guitar.

I doubt whether the world would know about lutes or dowland or milano had it not been for jb. He had the stature and gravitas for the music world to take notice. Whatever you feel about his lutes, sound ideal or technique he was vital to the early music movement and a worthy and necessary institution unto himself, certainly the way Wanda lsndowska was to the harpsichord, or Christopher hogwood was to the period orchestra. I'd buy his lute in a heartbeat if I had the money.
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