Discussion:
The Four Dominant Baroque Styles
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Andrew Schulman
2011-08-24 20:17:01 UTC
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Speaking of Baroque music, as we have been doing recently:

I recalled something one of my college musicology professors once said
in class. According to him there were four dominant Baroque styles.
First, the Italian style. Second, the French style. Third, what most
composers wrote in, a blend of French and Italian styles. And
finally, he said, "the most dominant style of all...the Bach style!"

Andrew
Steve Freides
2011-08-24 20:39:22 UTC
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Post by Andrew Schulman
I recalled something one of my college musicology professors once said
in class. According to him there were four dominant Baroque styles.
First, the Italian style. Second, the French style. Third, what most
composers wrote in, a blend of French and Italian styles. And
finally, he said, "the most dominant style of all...the Bach style!"
Andrew
It's interesting to note which composers and styles Bach chose to copy
and rearrange for different instruments. I know Vivaldi was one. We
also know he wrote pieces called French Suites although I have heard it
said that they aren't terribly French - I honestly don't remember them
now and will have to give a listen. There were English Suites as well,
and the same disclaimer applies.

-S-
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-24 21:10:25 UTC
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Post by Steve Freides
Post by Andrew Schulman
I recalled something one of my college musicology professors once said
in class.  According to him there were four dominant Baroque styles.
First, the Italian style.  Second, the French style.  Third, what most
composers wrote in, a blend of French and Italian styles.  And
finally, he said, "the most dominant style of all...the Bach style!"
Andrew
It's interesting to note which composers and styles Bach chose to copy
and rearrange for different instruments. I  know Vivaldi was one.  We
also know he wrote pieces called French Suites although I have heard it
said that they aren't terribly French - I honestly don't remember them
now and will have to give a listen.  There were English Suites as well,
and the same disclaimer applies.
-S-
For example:

"In the Obituary for his father, C. P. E. Bach writes: 'While a
student in Lüneburg, my father had the opportunity to listen to a band
kept by the Duke of Celle, consisting for the most part of Frenchmen;
thus he acquired a thorough grounding in the French taste, which in
those regions was something quite new...' "

http://www.gothic-catalog.com/Bach_the_French_Influence_Marshall_p/lrcd-1024.htm

Another big influence of another kind, Johann Adam Reincken. Bach
absorbed everything available to him.

Andrew
daveA
2011-08-24 21:05:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
I recalled something one of my college musicology professors once said
in class.  According to him there were four dominant Baroque styles.
First, the Italian style.  Second, the French style.  Third, what most
composers wrote in, a blend of French and Italian styles.  And
finally, he said, "the most dominant style of all...the Bach style!"
Andrew
So Bach really wasn't capable of writing authentic French or Italian
or English
suites because he wrote in the Bach style. I think that one makes a
mistake
in invoking the Style Fairy too many times to inform one's
interpretation.
The actual notation is many times more important. Regards, daveA
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-25 01:30:09 UTC
Permalink
Another Bs ... with a big B this time. [;o)
I am baroqued!
Alain
Che
2011-08-24 21:58:40 UTC
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Post by Andrew Schulman
I recalled something one of my college musicology professors once said
in class.  According to him there were four dominant Baroque styles.
First, the Italian style.  Second, the French style.  Third, what most
composers wrote in, a blend of French and Italian styles.  And
finally, he said, "the most dominant style of all...the Bach style!"
Andrew
http://www.culturekiosque.com/klassik/intervie/rhelopez.htm
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-25 04:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
http://www.culturekiosque.com/klassik/intervie/rhelopez.htm
Muchas gracias Monsieur Che.

Andresito
Che
2011-08-25 06:41:15 UTC
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Post by Andrew Schulman
Muchas gracias Monsieur Che.
Andresito
Here is a perfect exmple:

Andrew Schulman
2011-08-25 16:33:50 UTC
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Post by Andrew Schulman
Muchas gracias Monsieur Che.
Andresito
Here is a perfect http://youtu.be/s-wIJkAbkzU
Great stuff, very cinematic!

Andrew
Steven Bornfeld
2011-08-25 01:02:36 UTC
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Post by Andrew Schulman
I recalled something one of my college musicology professors once said
in class. According to him there were four dominant Baroque styles.
First, the Italian style. Second, the French style. Third, what most
composers wrote in, a blend of French and Italian styles. And
finally, he said, "the most dominant style of all...the Bach style!"
Andrew
In what styles did Handel write?

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-25 01:33:57 UTC
Permalink
French with an accent?

Alain
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-25 04:23:25 UTC
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        In what styles did Handel write?
In Italy he wrote "Il trionfo del tempo e del disinganno"

Music for the Royal Fireworks, written in England for an English king
(who was German) has these movements:

Ouverture: Adagio, Allegro, Lentement, Allegro
Bourrée
La Paix: Largo alla siciliana
La Réjouissance: Allegro
Menuets I and II

and he wrote Ode for St. Cecilia's Day, text in English.

In other words, as my old prof said, most composers mixed the styles,
and great composers like Bach and Handel had, in using what was all
around them, their own styles.

Andrew
daveA
2011-08-25 13:13:25 UTC
Permalink
wrote:>         In what styles did Handel write?
In Italy he wrote "Il trionfo del tempo e del disinganno"
Music for the Royal Fireworks, written in England for an English king
Ouverture: Adagio, Allegro, Lentement, Allegro
Bourrée
La Paix: Largo alla siciliana
La Réjouissance: Allegro
Menuets I and II
and he wrote Ode for St. Cecilia's Day, text in English.
In other words, as my old prof said, most composers mixed the styles,
and great composers like Bach and Handel had, in using what was all
around them, their own styles.
Andrew
I am uneasy with mixed styles and one's own style. Style is a
description
of all the things you can't or won't do. Better off without it.
Regards, daveA
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-25 16:35:28 UTC
Permalink
...Style is a
description
of all the things you can't or won't do....
That's a very stylish statement!

Andrew
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-25 01:42:22 UTC
Permalink
OT Andrew! OT. You forgot to OT your thread!
But I have to say ... it has style! [;o)

Alain

P.S. this message might appear twice
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-25 01:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Gee Andrew ... you forgot to OT your thread!
But I have to say ... it got style![;o)

Alain
JonLorPro
2011-08-26 02:22:52 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 24, 4:17 pm, Andrew Schulman <***@abacaproductions.com>
wrote:
.>
... there were four dominant Baroque styles.
First, the Italian style.  Second, the French style.  Third, what most
composers wrote in, a blend of French and Italian styles.  And
finally, he said, "the most dominant style of all...the Bach style!"
A couple of interesting sources that might be interesting to read
would be Francois Raguenet's "Comparison Between French and Italian
Musick of 1702", and Rousseau's "Lettre sur la musique françoise" of
1753, written in the context of the "Bufoon war", occasioned by the
introduction of Italian opera into the French milieu.

I say "might", because I have not read either one myself, and so am in
no position to recommend either in it's entirety- but I have come
across some passages. As partisans, both of them seem to come down on
the side of the Italians for stylistic preference- Rousseau
unquestionably so.

From Raguenet:

"The Italians are more bold and hardy in their airs, than the French;
they carry their point farther, both in their tender songs and those
that are more lively, as well as in their other compositions; nay,
they often unite styles, which the French think incompatible. The
French, in those compositions that consist of many parts, seldom
regard more than that which is principal, whereas the Italians usually
study to make all the parts equally shining, and beautiful. In short,
the invention of the one is inexhaustible, but the genius of the other
is narrow and constrain’d. . . .

"It is not to be wonder’d that the Italians think our musick dull and
stupefying, that, according to their taste, it appears flat and
insipid, if we consider the nature of the French airs compar’d to
those of the Italian. The French in their airs aim at the soft, the
easie, the flowing, and coherent; the whole air is of the same tone,
or if sometimes they venture to vary it, they do it with so many
preparations, they so qualifie it, that still the air seems to be as
natural and consistent as if they had attempted no change at all;
there is nothing bold and adventurous in it; it’s all equal and of a
piece. But the Italians pass boldly, and in an instant from sharps to
flats and from flats to sharps; they venture the boldest cadences, and
the most irregular dissonances; and their airs are so out of the way
that they resemble the compositions of no other nation in the world."


And this portrait he wrote of Corelli in performance, which is
relevent to making comparison's only by construal, but I find it
amusing:

According to him Corelli "suffered his passion to hurry him away so
much whilst he was playing on the violin.." that his "..eyes will
sometimes turn red as fire; his countenance will be distorted, his
eyeballs roll in agony, and he gives in so much to what he is doing
that he doth not look like the same man."

Nothing staid about his stage presence, apparently.


And Rousseau leaves no doubt as to his jaundiced view of his own
culture's musical capacity:

"...The Italians claim that our melody is flat and without any song,
and all neutral nations unanimously conf rm their judgment on this
point. From our side, we accuse their music of being bizarre and
baroque [barroque]. I am more inclined to believe that one party or
the other is mistaken than be reduced to saying that in those
countries, where the sciences and all the arts have risen to such a
high degree [such as Italy and France], music is still yet to be born.
The least prejudiced among us would be quick to say that Italian and
French music are both good, each in its own genre, each for its own
language that is appropriate to it. But....other nations don’t agree
with this notion of parity..."

And after providing several anecdotal illustrations and conclusive
accounts of investigative experiments carried out on French and
Italian musicians:

....I think that I have made obvious to all that there is neither a
clear beat nor a melody in French music because the French language is
not susceptible to either. French song is only a continual squealing,
intolerable to every unbiased ear; French harmony is brutish, without
expression and suggests nothing other than the filler material of a
rank beginner; the French “air” is not an air at all; and the French
recitative is not at all a recitative. From all this I conclude that
the French do not have music, and that if they ever do have it, it
will be all the worse for them. "

Anybody speak up for the other side? After all, fifty million
Frenchmen can't be wrong...
JonLorPro
2011-08-26 02:57:22 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 25, 10:22 pm, JonLorPro <***@aol.com> wrote:

.>
... Francois Raguenet's "Comparison Between French and Italian
Musick of 1702",....
The last quotation mark is in the wrong place, move ot back to after
"Musick" - he didn't write about "French and Italian music in the
year 1702", he, in the year 1702, wrote about "French and Italian
music...".
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-26 04:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
.>
... there were four dominant Baroque styles.
First, the Italian style.  Second, the French style.  Third, what most
composers wrote in, a blend of French and Italian styles.  And
finally, he said, "the most dominant style of all...the Bach style!"
A couple of interesting sources that might be interesting to read
would be Francois Raguenet's "Comparison Between French and Italian
Musick of 1702", and Rousseau's "Lettre sur la musique françoise" of
1753, written in the context of the "Bufoon war", occasioned by the
introduction of Italian opera into the French milieu.
I say "might", because I have not read either one myself, and so am in
no position to recommend either in it's entirety- but I have come
across some passages.  As partisans, both of them seem to come down on
the side of the Italians for stylistic preference-  Rousseau
unquestionably so.
"The Italians are more bold and hardy in their airs, than the French;
they carry their point farther, both in their tender songs and those
that are more lively, as well as in their other compositions; nay,
they often unite styles, which the French thinkr />piece. But the Italians pass boldly, and in an