Discussion:
cadences
(too old to reply)
sycochkn
2007-01-12 02:51:25 UTC
Permalink
I have an 8 measure piece.

| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / /
| C |

Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with C
as the highest note?

Bob
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-12 14:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / / C
| |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to be
in root inversion
Root position.
Post by sycochkn
but I do not care what the highest note is
??
Post by sycochkn
and that the
C in the fourth measure is the same.
????

Try starting C/// C/e /// G/d /// C/....

Avoiding G / C/ keeps things moving in the middle. You see that all the
time in the work of experienced songwriters. There are many things you
might do for many reasons and many ways you might do them. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Steve Freides
2007-01-12 16:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / /
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
measure and the fourth measure are both in root position, then either a
root position G chord or a first inversion G chord will work. If either
of the C chords is not in root position, then other things are possible.
The more usual way to discuss something like this is to give the melody
and discuss what might make the best harmony for it, assuming the melody
is decided already.

If you are trying to write a perfect, authentic cadence at the end then,
by definition, the bass will go G to C, and the melody will be either B
to C or D to C. If you're trying to create some other sort of cadence,
then different rules apply.

In short, exactly what's given and what's up to you is not clear from
your post.

HTH.

-S-
sycochkn
2007-01-12 19:40:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / /
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a
bit more than just play through composed pieces.


Bob
Post by Steve Freides
measure and the fourth measure are both in root position, then either a
root position G chord or a first inversion G chord will work. If either
of the C chords is not in root position, then other things are possible.
The more usual way to discuss something like this is to give the melody
and discuss what might make the best harmony for it, assuming the melody
is decided already.
If you are trying to write a perfect, authentic cadence at the end then,
by definition, the bass will go G to C, and the melody will be either B
to C or D to C. If you're trying to create some other sort of cadence,
then different rules apply.
In short, exactly what's given and what's up to you is not clear from
your post.
HTH.
-S-
Steve Freides
2007-01-13 18:16:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G /
/
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion
with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a
bit more than just play through composed pieces.
Perhaps a good exercise is to look at some music and identify the
cadences - which are perfect authentic, which are authentic but not
perfect, which are neither, etc.

-S-
SleepyHead
2007-01-17 10:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G /
/
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion
with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a
bit more than just play through composed pieces.
Perhaps a good exercise is to look at some music and identify the
cadences - which are perfect authentic, which are authentic but not
perfect, which are neither, etc.
-S-
I'll go with that, too. Chorale-tunes are a favourite of mine, but
anything with 3 or more voices should be unambiguous enough to get
started.
Steve Freides
2007-01-17 13:58:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by SleepyHead
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G /
/
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure
needs
to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B
or
D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion
with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a
bit more than just play through composed pieces.
Perhaps a good exercise is to look at some music and identify the
cadences - which are perfect authentic, which are authentic but not
perfect, which are neither, etc.
-S-
I'll go with that, too. Chorale-tunes are a favourite of mine, but
anything with 3 or more voices should be unambiguous enough to get
started.
Yes - Bach chorales can be thick, but your basic Episcopal, Lutheran,
etc, hymnal is great for this sort of thing. Also, excellent for this
is early Baroque music from German - Schutz, Schein, and that crowd from
the early 1600's, roughly 100 years before Bach - lots of block chords.

-S-
SleepyHead
2007-01-17 14:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by SleepyHead
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G /
/
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure
needs
to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B
or
D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion
with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a
bit more than just play through composed pieces.
Perhaps a good exercise is to look at some music and identify the
cadences - which are perfect authentic, which are authentic but not
perfect, which are neither, etc.
-S-
I'll go with that, too. Chorale-tunes are a favourite of mine, but
anything with 3 or more voices should be unambiguous enough to get
started.
Yes - Bach chorales can be thick, but your basic Episcopal, Lutheran,
etc, hymnal is great for this sort of thing. Also, excellent for this
is early Baroque music from German - Schutz, Schein, and that crowd from
the early 1600's, roughly 100 years before Bach - lots of block chords.
One thing I forgot to mention is that if you're looking at a Bach
chorale (or similar) it's probably best just to analyse those chords
that fall on the beat - the rest of the notes are often just 'filler'.
Post by Steve Freides
-S-
Steve Freides
2007-01-17 16:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by SleepyHead
Post by Steve Freides
Post by SleepyHead
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / /
|
G /
/
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure
needs
to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note
is
and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B
or
D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion
with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to
do
a
bit more than just play through composed pieces.
Perhaps a good exercise is to look at some music and identify the
cadences - which are perfect authentic, which are authentic but not
perfect, which are neither, etc.
-S-
I'll go with that, too. Chorale-tunes are a favourite of mine, but
anything with 3 or more voices should be unambiguous enough to get
started.
Yes - Bach chorales can be thick, but your basic Episcopal, Lutheran,
etc, hymnal is great for this sort of thing. Also, excellent for this
is early Baroque music from German - Schutz, Schein, and that crowd from
the early 1600's, roughly 100 years before Bach - lots of block chords.
One thing I forgot to mention is that if you're looking at a Bach
chorale (or similar) it's probably best just to analyse those chords
that fall on the beat - the rest of the notes are often just 'filler'.
Well, kinda, sorta, maybe. There are many examples where the important
note is not on the beat for voice-leading reasons. I'd just stick to
simpler chorales, be they the simpler Bach ones or those of other
composers, until such time as one is ready for something more complex,
IOW, better to do an accurate analysis of something relatively simple
than a wrong analysis of something complex. Just my opinion, of course.
Post by SleepyHead
Post by Steve Freides
-S-
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-14 11:06:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / /
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence. Do not fail
to take advantage of the experience of others.

Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
sycochkn
2007-01-15 03:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / /
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.

Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to
live performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.

Bob
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-15 13:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G /
| /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs
to be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is
and that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the
seventh measure needs to be in root form with the highest note
either B or D and that the C in the last measure needs to be in
root inversion with C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a
bit more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to live
performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
If none of these apply, then I don't understand your original
post. Why do you want to find an unconventional path to
knowledge that is entirely conventional? It just makes no sense to me.
daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
sycochkn
2007-01-15 13:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G /
| /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs
to be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is
and that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the
seventh measure needs to be in root form with the highest note
either B or D and that the C in the last measure needs to be in
root inversion with C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a
bit more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to live
performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
If none of these apply, then I don't understand your original
post. Why do you want to find an unconventional path to
knowledge that is entirely conventional? It just makes no sense to me.
daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its
use.

Bob
AnneCoultersAdamsApple
2007-01-15 14:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G /
| /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs
to be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is
and that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the
seventh measure needs to be in root form with the highest note
either B or D and that the C in the last measure needs to be in
root inversion with C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a
bit more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to live
performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
If none of these apply, then I don't understand your original
post. Why do you want to find an unconventional path to
knowledge that is entirely conventional? It just makes no sense to me.
daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its
use.
Bob
Bob,

And DRA's answers will always undermine your playing and learning
confidence while transmitting absolutley NO information. DRA is full
of shit and emotionally dysfunctional.

ACAA
sycochkn
2007-01-15 14:44:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by AnneCoultersAdamsApple
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G /
| /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs
to be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is
and that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the
seventh measure needs to be in root form with the highest note
either B or D and that the C in the last measure needs to be in
root inversion with C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a
bit more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to live
performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
If none of these apply, then I don't understand your original
post. Why do you want to find an unconventional path to
knowledge that is entirely conventional? It just makes no sense to me.
daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its
use.
Bob
Bob,
And DRA's answers will always undermine your playing and learning
confidence while transmitting absolutley NO information. DRA is full
of shit and emotionally dysfunctional.
ACAA
A non answer is a non answer and does no harm. I have gotten at least
one useful answer to most of my questions, from one poster or another.

Bob
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-15 18:37:03 UTC
Permalink
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its use.
Why no 7th then? A G7 chord occurs naturally only in the C major or minor
keys, so it establishes C as a tonality, but a triad G does not. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Steve Freides
2007-01-15 18:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its use.
Why no 7th then? A G7 chord occurs naturally only in the C major or minor
keys, so it establishes C as a tonality, but a triad G does not.
daveA
There would be more voice-leading issues working with G7 in the example
the OP gave than in doing it as he gave it. I would leave well enough
alone - there's plenty to learn working with just I and V. But you are
already busy answering one question he didn't ask, and now you raise
another.

-S-
Larry Deack
2007-01-15 19:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
There would be more voice-leading issues working with G7 in the example
the OP gave than in doing it as he gave it. I would leave well enough
alone - there's plenty to learn working with just I and V. But you are
already busy answering one question he didn't ask, and now you raise
another.
The nature of this media seems to be very unfocused. Anybody looking
for specific information is unlikely to like the multiple answers they get.

Bob likes to have a lot of input so I doubt he will mind sorting out
the mess.

Personally I think the way we teach music theory is outdated but I
find that I have to explain music to my students using much the same
approach, but tempered by "pop" and jazz approaches. The rules of Common
Practice are just not what most people hear in the real world.
SleepyHead
2007-01-16 12:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its use.
Why no 7th then? A G7 chord occurs naturally only in the C major or minor
keys, so it establishes C as a tonality, but a triad G does not. daveA
G -> C establishes C as a tonality just fine. You don't need a 7th to
establish a tonality, but there's more of a push (on account of the
7th) if you do.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-16 18:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by SleepyHead
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its use.
Why no 7th then? A G7 chord occurs naturally only in the C major or
minor keys, so it establishes C as a tonality, but a triad G does not.
daveA
G -> C establishes C as a tonality just fine.
You could be in G, Em, or Am, so the tonality at the time could be G, E or
A, or of course C. But G7 has an "f", so it's not sharper than C, and
a "b", so it's not flatter than C.

It sometimes makes a difference, as in correcting the wrong notes in
Sor-Segovia #18. The top two lines on the second page are written in
Eb/Cm, but the music is in F minor at that point, because it opens with a
C7 chord arpeggio. A guy name Nachbaur got the correction into print.
Segovia and JW played and recorded it wrong. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
SleepyHead
2007-01-17 10:48:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by SleepyHead
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its use.
Why no 7th then? A G7 chord occurs naturally only in the C major or
minor keys, so it establishes C as a tonality, but a triad G does not.
daveA
G -> C establishes C as a tonality just fine.
You could be in G, Em, or Am, so the tonality at the time could be G, E or
A, or of course C. But G7 has an "f", so it's not sharper than C, and
a "b", so it's not flatter than C.
Well obviously it depends to some extent what comes before and after
the G -> C chord change (the prevailing key signature could be F# after
all!). If all he's playing is, though, is G -> C then I'd say it's fine
on its own.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
It sometimes makes a difference, as in correcting the wrong notes in
Sor-Segovia #18. The top two lines on the second page are written in
Eb/Cm, but the music is in F minor at that point, because it opens with a
C7 chord arpeggio. A guy name Nachbaur got the correction into print.
Segovia and JW played and recorded it wrong. daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
That's one in the eye for the top-dog of technical tedium (JW) then!
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-17 12:14:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by SleepyHead
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its use.
Why no 7th then? A G7 chord occurs naturally only in the C major or
minor keys, so it establishes C as a tonality, but a triad G does
not. daveA
G -> C establishes C as a tonality just fine.
You could be in G, Em, or Am, so the tonality at the time could be G, E
or A, or of course C. But G7 has an "f", so it's not sharper than C,
and a "b", so it's not flatter than C.
Well obviously it depends to some extent what comes before and after the G
-> C chord change (the prevailing key signature could be F# after all!).
If all he's playing is, though, is G -> C then I'd say it's fine on its
own.
The point is that, as I try to understand the purpose of the original
post, which is not exactly a model of clarity, nothing is fine on its own.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
It sometimes makes a difference, as in correcting the wrong notes in
Sor-Segovia #18. The top two lines on the second page are written in
Eb/Cm, but the music is in F minor at that point, because it opens with
a C7 chord arpeggio. A guy name Nachbaur got the correction into print.
Segovia and JW played and recorded it wrong. daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. To
email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
That's one in the eye for the top-dog of technical tedium (JW) then!
Not at all. I think he'll love them. They are just as much for
maintenance as improvement. He will find them very useful, if he
ever sees them. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
SleepyHead
2007-01-17 13:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by SleepyHead
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its use.
Why no 7th then? A G7 chord occurs naturally only in the C major or
minor keys, so it establishes C as a tonality, but a triad G does
not. daveA
G -> C establishes C as a tonality just fine.
You could be in G, Em, or Am, so the tonality at the time could be G, E
or A, or of course C. But G7 has an "f", so it's not sharper than C,
and a "b", so it's not flatter than C.
Well obviously it depends to some extent what comes before and after the G
-> C chord change (the prevailing key signature could be F# after all!).
If all he's playing is, though, is G -> C then I'd say it's fine on its
own.
The point is that, as I try to understand the purpose of the original
post, which is not exactly a model of clarity, nothing is fine on its own.
Have I moved to Mars or something? He wrote:

I have an 8 measure piece.

| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / /
| C |

and he wants to know ...

"Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with C
as the highest note?"

In brief then;

His assumptions aren't entirely correct - they seem to be based on some
misunderstandings of the nature of cadences, melodic motion and
harmony.

However, based on the fact that the stated progression goes C G C G C
then I'd say that's clearly in the key of C and the other questions he
asked can be addressed by talking generally about different kinds of
cadences, melodic motion and so forth. There's certainly nothing in his
original post to suggest he's actually in e minor.

As for "The point is that ... nothing is fine on its own" get grip,
Dave. He's given enough context to be able to answer his question and
further posts from him should help clarify the rest.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
It sometimes makes a difference, as in correcting the wrong notes in
Sor-Segovia #18. The top two lines on the second page are written in
Eb/Cm, but the music is in F minor at that point, because it opens with
a C7 chord arpeggio. A guy name Nachbaur got the correction into print.
Segovia and JW played and recorded it wrong. daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. To
email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
That's one in the eye for the top-dog of technical tedium (JW) then!
Not at all. I think he'll love them. They are just as much for
maintenance as improvement. He will find them very useful, if he
ever sees them. daveA
I think you've misunderstood my point. I think it's funny that JW (the
primo technical perfectionist - but *yawn* what a boring player) got a
note wrong. It would be a bit like Einstein getting the answer to "What
is the sum of 2 and 3?" wrong.

I have no opinion about the Sor exercises, save to say that I've played
a lot of Sor as part of learning good technique and the unfortunate
upshot is that I'm now as bored of his music as I am of JW's
performances.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
SleepyHead
2007-01-17 13:30:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by SleepyHead
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its use.
Why no 7th then? A G7 chord occurs naturally only in the C major or
minor keys, so it establishes C as a tonality, but a triad G does
not. daveA
G -> C establishes C as a tonality just fine.
You could be in G, Em, or Am, so the tonality at the time could be G, E
or A, or of course C. But G7 has an "f", so it's not sharper than C,
and a "b", so it's not flatter than C.
Well obviously it depends to some extent what comes before and after the G
-> C chord change (the prevailing key signature could be F# after all!).
If all he's playing is, though, is G -> C then I'd say it's fine on its
own.
The point is that, as I try to understand the purpose of the original
post, which is not exactly a model of clarity, nothing is fine on its own.
Have I moved to Mars or something? He wrote:

I have an 8 measure piece.

| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / /
| C |

and he wants to know ...

"Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with C
as the highest note?"

In brief then;

His assumptions aren't entirely correct - they seem to be based on some
misunderstandings of the nature of cadences, melodic motion and
harmony.

However, based on the fact that the stated progression goes C G C G C
then I'd say that's clearly in the key of C and the other questions he
asked can be addressed by talking generally about different kinds of
cadences, melodic motion and so forth. There's certainly nothing in his
original post to suggest he's actually in e minor.

As for "The point is that ... nothing is fine on its own" get grip,
Dave. He's given enough context to be able to answer his question and
further posts from him should help clarify the rest.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
It sometimes makes a difference, as in correcting the wrong notes in
Sor-Segovia #18. The top two lines on the second page are written in
Eb/Cm, but the music is in F minor at that point, because it opens with
a C7 chord arpeggio. A guy name Nachbaur got the correction into print.
Segovia and JW played and recorded it wrong. daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. To
email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
That's one in the eye for the top-dog of technical tedium (JW) then!
Not at all. I think he'll love them. They are just as much for
maintenance as improvement. He will find them very useful, if he
ever sees them. daveA
I think you've misunderstood my point. I think it's funny that JW (the
primo technical perfectionist - but *yawn* what a boring player) got a
note wrong. It would be a bit like Einstein getting the answer to "What
is the sum of 2 and 3?" wrong.

I have no opinion about the Sor exercises, save to say that I've played
a lot of Sor as part of learning good technique and the unfortunate
upshot is that I'm now as bored of his music as I am of JW's
performances.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-17 14:05:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by SleepyHead
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by SleepyHead
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The original post was to verify my understanding of the PAC and its use.
Why no 7th then? A G7 chord occurs naturally only in the C major
or minor keys, so it establishes C as a tonality, but a triad G
does not. daveA
G -> C establishes C as a tonality just fine.
You could be in G, Em, or Am, so the tonality at the time could be G,
E or A, or of course C. But G7 has an "f", so it's not sharper than
C, and a "b", so it's not flatter than C.
Well obviously it depends to some extent what comes before and after
the G -> C chord change (the prevailing key signature could be F#
after all!). If all he's playing is, though, is G -> C then I'd say
it's fine on its own.
The point is that, as I try to understand the purpose of the original
post, which is not exactly a model of clarity, nothing is fine on its own.
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / / C
| |
and he wants to know ...
"Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to be
in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and that the
C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh measure needs to
be in root form with the highest note either B or D and that the C in the
last measure needs to be in root inversion with C as the highest note?"
In brief then;
His assumptions aren't entirely correct - they seem to be based on some
misunderstandings of the nature of cadences, melodic motion and harmony.
Precisely. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
e***@yahoo.com
2007-01-15 20:10:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / /
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to
live performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
Bob,

Get a copy of "Study of Counterpoint" by John J. Fux. You can think of
chord progressions as just blocks of notes that seem to go together or
you can think of them and 3- and 4-voice moving lines. That's how most
Jazz players see chords these days. The Counterpoint book is a very
good introduction to how individual notes resolve to other notes.
Without using our "modern" terminology, the book leads you to
understand organically why you might use one form or inversion or
another.

http://tinyurl.com/v87nf

Ed S.
sycochkn
2007-01-15 23:25:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / /
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to
live performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
Bob,
Get a copy of "Study of Counterpoint" by John J. Fux. You can think of
chord progressions as just blocks of notes that seem to go together or
you can think of them and 3- and 4-voice moving lines. That's how most
Jazz players see chords these days. The Counterpoint book is a very
good introduction to how individual notes resolve to other notes.
Without using our "modern" terminology, the book leads you to
understand organically why you might use one form or inversion or
another.
http://tinyurl.com/v87nf
Ed S.
At the moment I am working with:
the Compete Book Chords Scales Arpeggios for the Guitarist, Al Politino
Ultimate Guitar Chord User's Guide, Michael P. Wolfsohn
the Advancing Guitarist, Mick Goodrick.
and
the RCM Guitar Repertoire books from Fredrick Harris Music.
I mix up the guitars with
A Takamine Classical
A Gibson LC-1
and a Breedlove CM12/E
the classical is the easiest to use the 12 string is the most
difficult.

Bob
SleepyHead
2007-01-16 12:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to
live performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
Bob,
Get a copy of "Study of Counterpoint" by John J. Fux. You can think of
chord progressions as just blocks of notes that seem to go together or
you can think of them and 3- and 4-voice moving lines. That's how most
Jazz players see chords these days. The Counterpoint book is a very
good introduction to how individual notes resolve to other notes.
Without using our "modern" terminology, the book leads you to
understand organically why you might use one form or inversion or
another.
http://tinyurl.com/v87nf
Ed S.
the Compete Book Chords Scales Arpeggios for the Guitarist, Al Politino
Ultimate Guitar Chord User's Guide, Michael P. Wolfsohn
the Advancing Guitarist, Mick Goodrick.
and
the RCM Guitar Repertoire books from Fredrick Harris Music.
I mix up the guitars with
A Takamine Classical
A Gibson LC-1
and a Breedlove CM12/E
the classical is the easiest to use the 12 string is the most
difficult.
Bob
I think I'd recommend you buy something along the lines of Butterworth
(a practical guide to the workings of tonal harmony) and work through
it with the answers book (or, preferably, a theory teacher) (cf
http://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Practice-Anna-Butterworth/dp/1854728334/sr=8-1/qid=1168949168/ref=sr_1_1/103-4246986-5424662?ie=UTF8&s=books)

I'd leave Fux for now because:

(a) he covers the complex subject of tonal counterpoint rather too
swiftly;
(b) he doesn't really deal with /tonal/ counterpoint so much as
rennaisance counterpoint;
(c) there are better tonal counterpoint books on the market;
(d) a basic course in tonal harmony is a presupposition of most
counterpoint studies.

When you say you want to do more than play through others' music are
you interested in improvisation, writing, or both?
sycochkn
2007-01-16 12:46:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by SleepyHead
Post by sycochkn
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to
live performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
Bob,
Get a copy of "Study of Counterpoint" by John J. Fux. You can think of
chord progressions as just blocks of notes that seem to go together or
you can think of them and 3- and 4-voice moving lines. That's how most
Jazz players see chords these days. The Counterpoint book is a very
good introduction to how individual notes resolve to other notes.
Without using our "modern" terminology, the book leads you to
understand organically why you might use one form or inversion or
another.
http://tinyurl.com/v87nf
Ed S.
the Compete Book Chords Scales Arpeggios for the Guitarist, Al Politino
Ultimate Guitar Chord User's Guide, Michael P. Wolfsohn
the Advancing Guitarist, Mick Goodrick.
and
the RCM Guitar Repertoire books from Fredrick Harris Music.
I mix up the guitars with
A Takamine Classical
A Gibson LC-1
and a Breedlove CM12/E
the classical is the easiest to use the 12 string is the most
difficult.
Bob
I think I'd recommend you buy something along the lines of Butterworth
(a practical guide to the workings of tonal harmony) and work through
it with the answers book (or, preferably, a theory teacher) (cf
http://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Practice-Anna-Butterworth/dp/1854728334/sr=8-1/qid=1168949168/ref=sr_1_1/103-4246986-5424662?ie=UTF8&s=books)
(a) he covers the complex subject of tonal counterpoint rather too
swiftly;
(b) he doesn't really deal with /tonal/ counterpoint so much as
rennaisance counterpoint;
(c) there are better tonal counterpoint books on the market;
(d) a basic course in tonal harmony is a presupposition of most
counterpoint studies.
When you say you want to do more than play through others' music are
you interested in improvisation, writing, or both?
I go to a bluegrass jam once in a while and we play from lead sheets. I
need to work out simple rhythm parts, leads and solos. I also desire to
play at least generic chord melody from jazz lead sheets.

Bob
SleepyHead
2007-01-16 16:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
Post by SleepyHead
Post by sycochkn
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to
live performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
Bob,
Get a copy of "Study of Counterpoint" by John J. Fux. You can think of
chord progressions as just blocks of notes that seem to go together or
you can think of them and 3- and 4-voice moving lines. That's how most
Jazz players see chords these days. The Counterpoint book is a very
good introduction to how individual notes resolve to other notes.
Without using our "modern" terminology, the book leads you to
understand organically why you might use one form or inversion or
another.
http://tinyurl.com/v87nf
Ed S.
the Compete Book Chords Scales Arpeggios for the Guitarist, Al Politino
Ultimate Guitar Chord User's Guide, Michael P. Wolfsohn
the Advancing Guitarist, Mick Goodrick.
and
the RCM Guitar Repertoire books from Fredrick Harris Music.
I mix up the guitars with
A Takamine Classical
A Gibson LC-1
and a Breedlove CM12/E
the classical is the easiest to use the 12 string is the most
difficult.
Bob
I think I'd recommend you buy something along the lines of Butterworth
(a practical guide to the workings of tonal harmony) and work through
it with the answers book (or, preferably, a theory teacher) (cf
http://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Practice-Anna-Butterworth/dp/1854728334/sr=8-1/qid=1168949168/ref=sr_1_1/103-4246986-5424662?ie=UTF8&s=books)
(a) he covers the complex subject of tonal counterpoint rather too
swiftly;
(b) he doesn't really deal with /tonal/ counterpoint so much as
rennaisance counterpoint;
(c) there are better tonal counterpoint books on the market;
(d) a basic course in tonal harmony is a presupposition of most
counterpoint studies.
When you say you want to do more than play through others' music are
you interested in improvisation, writing, or both?
I go to a bluegrass jam once in a while and we play from lead sheets. I
need to work out simple rhythm parts, leads and solos. I also desire to
play at least generic chord melody from jazz lead sheets.
Bob
For the improv. stuff I'd look as Dave Arnold about visualisation -
it's a technique my teacher uses too, although I'm not much of an
improv. fan so I haven't botherd with it.

On the harmony front I'll still go with what I said before, although it
sounds like you don't really need some of the technicalities presented
in Butterworth just yet.

On the chords front a big book of chords might do you some good, but to
be honest a basic knowledge of what "a diminished chord", a "flattened
9th" chord, and so on is will give you more room to be creative,
although it's a little harder to get your head round initially. (Better
learning how to form chords for yourself than forever reading someone
else's versions of those chords).
sycochkn
2007-01-17 01:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by SleepyHead
Post by sycochkn
Post by SleepyHead
Post by sycochkn
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to
live performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
Bob,
Get a copy of "Study of Counterpoint" by John J. Fux. You can think of
chord progressions as just blocks of notes that seem to go together or
you can think of them and 3- and 4-voice moving lines. That's how most
Jazz players see chords these days. The Counterpoint book is a very
good introduction to how individual notes resolve to other notes.
Without using our "modern" terminology, the book leads you to
understand organically why you might use one form or inversion or
another.
http://tinyurl.com/v87nf
Ed S.
the Compete Book Chords Scales Arpeggios for the Guitarist, Al Politino
Ultimate Guitar Chord User's Guide, Michael P. Wolfsohn
the Advancing Guitarist, Mick Goodrick.
and
the RCM Guitar Repertoire books from Fredrick Harris Music.
I mix up the guitars with
A Takamine Classical
A Gibson LC-1
and a Breedlove CM12/E
the classical is the easiest to use the 12 string is the most
difficult.
Bob
I think I'd recommend you buy something along the lines of Butterworth
(a practical guide to the workings of tonal harmony) and work through
it with the answers book (or, preferably, a theory teacher) (cf
http://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Practice-Anna-Butterworth/dp/1854728334/sr=8-1/qid=1168949168/ref=sr_1_1/103-4246986-5424662?ie=UTF8&s=books)
(a) he covers the complex subject of tonal counterpoint rather too
swiftly;
(b) he doesn't really deal with /tonal/ counterpoint so much as
rennaisance counterpoint;
(c) there are better tonal counterpoint books on the market;
(d) a basic course in tonal harmony is a presupposition of most
counterpoint studies.
When you say you want to do more than play through others' music are
you interested in improvisation, writing, or both?
I go to a bluegrass jam once in a while and we play from lead sheets. I
need to work out simple rhythm parts, leads and solos. I also desire to
play at least generic chord melody from jazz lead sheets.
Bob
For the improv. stuff I'd look as Dave Arnold about visualisation -
it's a technique my teacher uses too, although I'm not much of an
improv. fan so I haven't botherd with it.
On the harmony front I'll still go with what I said before, although it
sounds like you don't really need some of the technicalities presented
in Butterworth just yet.
On the chords front a big book of chords might do you some good, but to
be honest a basic knowledge of what "a diminished chord", a "flattened
9th" chord, and so on is will give you more room to be creative,
although it's a little harder to get your head round initially. (Better
learning how to form chords for yourself than forever reading someone
else's versions of those chords).
Two of those books I am using are all about constructing chords.

Bob
SleepyHead
2007-01-17 10:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
Post by SleepyHead
Post by sycochkn
Post by SleepyHead
Post by sycochkn
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to
live performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
Bob,
Get a copy of "Study of Counterpoint" by John J. Fux. You can think of
chord progressions as just blocks of notes that seem to go together or
you can think of them and 3- and 4-voice moving lines. That's how most
Jazz players see chords these days. The Counterpoint book is a very
good introduction to how individual notes resolve to other notes.
Without using our "modern" terminology, the book leads you to
understand organically why you might use one form or inversion or
another.
http://tinyurl.com/v87nf
Ed S.
the Compete Book Chords Scales Arpeggios for the Guitarist, Al Politino
Ultimate Guitar Chord User's Guide, Michael P. Wolfsohn
the Advancing Guitarist, Mick Goodrick.
and
the RCM Guitar Repertoire books from Fredrick Harris Music.
I mix up the guitars with
A Takamine Classical
A Gibson LC-1
and a Breedlove CM12/E
the classical is the easiest to use the 12 string is the most
difficult.
Bob
I think I'd recommend you buy something along the lines of Butterworth
(a practical guide to the workings of tonal harmony) and work through
it with the answers book (or, preferably, a theory teacher) (cf
http://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Practice-Anna-Butterworth/dp/1854728334/sr=8-1/qid=1168949168/ref=sr_1_1/103-4246986-5424662?ie=UTF8&s=books)
(a) he covers the complex subject of tonal counterpoint rather too
swiftly;
(b) he doesn't really deal with /tonal/ counterpoint so much as
rennaisance counterpoint;
(c) there are better tonal counterpoint books on the market;
(d) a basic course in tonal harmony is a presupposition of most
counterpoint studies.
When you say you want to do more than play through others' music are
you interested in improvisation, writing, or both?
I go to a bluegrass jam once in a while and we play from lead sheets. I
need to work out simple rhythm parts, leads and solos. I also desire to
play at least generic chord melody from jazz lead sheets.
Bob
For the improv. stuff I'd look as Dave Arnold about visualisation -
it's a technique my teacher uses too, although I'm not much of an
improv. fan so I haven't botherd with it.
On the harmony front I'll still go with what I said before, although it
sounds like you don't really need some of the technicalities presented
in Butterworth just yet.
On the chords front a big book of chords might do you some good, but to
be honest a basic knowledge of what "a diminished chord", a "flattened
9th" chord, and so on is will give you more room to be creative,
although it's a little harder to get your head round initially. (Better
learning how to form chords for yourself than forever reading someone
else's versions of those chords).
Two of those books I am using are all about constructing chords.
Bob
That's fine, fella - just checking! (There are 101 guitarists who'll
content themselves learning chord patterns / scales by rote from a
book).
Steve Freides
2007-01-15 23:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / /
| G / /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root
inversion with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to
live performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
Bob,
Get a copy of "Study of Counterpoint" by John J. Fux. You can think of
chord progressions as just blocks of notes that seem to go together or
you can think of them and 3- and 4-voice moving lines. That's how most
Jazz players see chords these days. The Counterpoint book is a very
good introduction to how individual notes resolve to other notes.
Without using our "modern" terminology, the book leads you to
understand organically why you might use one form or inversion or
another.
http://tinyurl.com/v87nf
Ed S.
Ed, from a quick look at the amazon.com listing, this appears to be
Josephus Fux's famous counterpoint text, "Gradus Ad Parnasum", which
I've read (in an English translation, of course). Is the book to which
you're referring something other than that?

-S-
Larry Deack
2007-01-16 00:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Ed, from a quick look at the amazon.com listing, this appears to be
Josephus Fux's famous counterpoint text, "Gradus Ad Parnasum", which
I've read (in an English translation, of course). Is the book to which
you're referring something other than that?
I just figured that was it when he said Fux. What else is Fux known for?

I think the idea of a dialog based progressive approach would make a
great interactive computer program to learn counterpoint without a
teacher. Sprinkled with many examples and exceptions it could be
educational to do that kind of project.

I've used that idea as way to think about how to write educational
software that can help students get over the significant wall that this
subject represents for most students. It seems to be like the calculus
of music in the way it appears to be so difficult to learn for most
students.
e***@yahoo.com
2007-01-16 00:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / /
| G / /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root
inversion with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords arpeggios and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able to do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to
live performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
Bob,
Get a copy of "Study of Counterpoint" by John J. Fux. You can think of
chord progressions as just blocks of notes that seem to go together or
you can think of them and 3- and 4-voice moving lines. That's how most
Jazz players see chords these days. The Counterpoint book is a very
good introduction to how individual notes resolve to other notes.
Without using our "modern" terminology, the book leads you to
understand organically why you might use one form or inversion or
another.
http://tinyurl.com/v87nf
Ed S.
Ed, from a quick look at the amazon.com listing, this appears to be
Josephus Fux's famous counterpoint text, "Gradus Ad Parnasum", which
I've read (in an English translation, of course). Is the book to which
you're referring something other than that?
-S-
-S-,

Yes, but the complete title is "The Study of Counterpoint: From Johann
Joseph Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum", translated and edited by Alfred
Mann. According to the back cover the only English version was a free
paraphase published in 1886.

Ed S.
Steve Freides
2007-01-16 00:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Steve Freides
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by sycochkn
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by sycochkn
Post by Steve Freides
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / /
| G / /
/
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third
measure
needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest
note
is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note
either
B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root
inversion with
C
as the highest note?
The G in the third measure doesn't necessarily need to be in root
position, no. You have many possibilities. If the C in the first
I am working on the basic application of scales chords
arpeggios
and
cadences as related to playing the guitar. I want to be able
to
do a bit
more than just play through composed pieces.
The path to originality is not perversity, it is persistence.
More like OCD. I am not too concerned about being original.
Do not fail
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
to take advantage of the experience of others.
That is why I take lessons, attend workshops, take classes and go to
live performances in small venues.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Don't worry about trying to sound like someone else, because you can't.
daveA
I am in no danger of sounding like someone else.
Bob
Bob,
Get a copy of "Study of Counterpoint" by John J. Fux. You can
think
of
chord progressions as just blocks of notes that seem to go together or
you can think of them and 3- and 4-voice moving lines. That's how most
Jazz players see chords these days. The Counterpoint book is a very
good introduction to how individual notes resolve to other notes.
Without using our "modern" terminology, the book leads you to
understand organically why you might use one form or inversion or
another.
http://tinyurl.com/v87nf
Ed S.
Ed, from a quick look at the amazon.com listing, this appears to be
Josephus Fux's famous counterpoint text, "Gradus Ad Parnasum", which
I've read (in an English translation, of course). Is the book to which
you're referring something other than that?
-S-
-S-,
Yes, but the complete title is "The Study of Counterpoint: From Johann
Joseph Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum", translated and edited by Alfred
Mann. According to the back cover the only English version was a free
paraphase published in 1886.
Ed S.
I'll have to dig up my Fux and compare it to what I find online about
the version you mention. I haven't looked at Fux in a decade or two.

Thanks.

-S-
Larry Deack
2007-01-16 00:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
I'll have to dig up my Fux and compare it to what I find online about
the version you mention. I haven't looked at Fux in a decade or two.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fux
Johann Joseph Fux, The Study of Counterpoint (Gradus ad Parnassum). Tr.
Alfred Mann. New York, W.W. Norton & Co., 1965. ISBN 0-393-00277-2
Steve Freides
2007-01-16 14:17:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Steve Freides
I'll have to dig up my Fux and compare it to what I find online about
the version you mention. I haven't looked at Fux in a decade or two.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fux
Johann Joseph Fux, The Study of Counterpoint (Gradus ad Parnassum).
Tr. Alfred Mann. New York, W.W. Norton & Co., 1965. ISBN 0-393-00277-2
That must be what I have.

-S-
SleepyHead
2007-01-15 14:45:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by sycochkn
I have an 8 measure piece.
| C / / / / | / / / / | G / / / | C / / / | / / / / | / / / / | G / / /
| C |
Am I correct in my assumption that the G in the third measure needs to
be in root inversion but I do not care what the highest note is and
that the C in the fourth measure is the same. The G in the seventh
measure needs to be in root form with the highest note either B or D
and that the C in the last measure needs to be in root inversion with C
as the highest note?
Bob
If you want an perfect authentic cadence then both chords need to be in
root position; a perfect inauthentic cadence would have the G in 1st
position (6/3) and the C in root position. You could always try a 2nd
inversion C (6/4) -> root pos. G -> root pos. C. for a slighly
different 'flavour'.

The highest note doesn't necessarily matter so much as the direction of
the individual lines within the chords you're writing. Generally
speaking (although there are many examples that don't do this) if
you've got a 7th added to the G (i.e. an F) it would resolve downwards
by step to the E of the following C chord. The root of the G chord
(i.e. the G) would resolve to a C in the following C chord. The 3rd of
the G chord (i.e. B) would resolve upwards to a C in the following C
chord. You can do what you like with the D of the G chord, although the
'rule' is that the supertonic usually resolves downwards by step to the
C of the following C chord. (The final C chord, IOW, will consist of
2/3 Cs - and an E if you've got a 7th in the G chord before the C
chord). These rules apply regardless of the inversions of either
chords, although you'll probably find that certain combinations of
notes will tend to create parallel 5ths/8ves and/or ugly/silly-sounding
melodic resolutions.
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