Discussion:
Grace Notes in Lute Tablature
(too old to reply)
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-16 18:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Robert, Roman, anyone ....

I posted this in another thread but didn't hear anything...I've posted
example measures from the same Sonata from Cardin's site, showing the lute
tab systems in question. thank you thank you....

-----

Referring to the Sonata XI London MS sample found at:
Loading Image...


This is making my head hurt....I thought, if the grace note is
descending ("written" as a descending grace on the MS now) that we are
coming from below the note, thus the G#-A sequence implied on the snapshot?
Loading Image...

For a different look, see measure 5 of the same piece in the MS...the grace
is ascending after the note (4th beat) D(grace) to C#. Am I wrong in this
interpretation of the tablature? Gods help me, I hope not.......big
freakin' doh on that....
Loading Image...

M22 2nd beat...and 4th beat....the same...M24...the same....
Loading Image...
----


your help is appreciated. much obliged.

Rich
Matanya Ophee
2005-12-16 18:59:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Robert, Roman, anyone ....
I posted this in another thread but didn't hear anything...I've posted
example measures from the same Sonata from Cardin's site, showing the lute
tab systems in question. thank you thank you....
I think you are counting too much on some one else's help, instead of
doing some basic reading yourself. I don't expect you to go and buy a
book on the subject, like my edition of the Moscow 'Weiss' manuscript,
which includes what is perhaps one of the better expositions of the
knowledge you are seeking. But you don't have to buy anything. This
document exists on line in my web site.

http://www.orphee.com/tim/weismain.htm

I would be shutting down this part of the web site sometime soon, so
get cracking and download it now.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-16 19:06:44 UTC
Permalink
Much obliged. On the surface it may seem you are right, but funny thing is,
I have quite a bit on the subject (not the Moscow...I wish), and have
researched it extensively but this is one topic that seems to escape the
discussion. What I mean are the nuances of such. I'm looking now. Most
grateful, MO.

Rich
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Robert, Roman, anyone ....
I posted this in another thread but didn't hear anything...I've posted
example measures from the same Sonata from Cardin's site, showing the lute
tab systems in question. thank you thank you....
I think you are counting too much on some one else's help, instead of
doing some basic reading yourself. I don't expect you to go and buy a
book on the subject, like my edition of the Moscow 'Weiss' manuscript,
which includes what is perhaps one of the better expositions of the
knowledge you are seeking. But you don't have to buy anything. This
document exists on line in my web site.
http://www.orphee.com/tim/weismain.htm
I would be shutting down this part of the web site sometime soon, so
get cracking and download it now.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-17 16:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Reading thru this is great Matanya. Unfortunately, it doesn't answer
the "nuance" of the grace note, meaning its direction, coming from or to the
note, and the side of the note that it's on. Thru numerous examples of
Weiss, I've deduced it means what I transcribed in the allemande example,
but I'm looking for a definitive answer. Maybe I missed it in all the
reading/research.

I had posted examples of the lute tab below to illustrate the
differences of the grace note, direction and side of note.
----
if the grace note is
descending ("written" as a descending grace on the MS now) that we are
coming from below the note, thus the G#-A sequence implied on the snapshot?
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/errata/11lm_allemande_system1.jpg

For a different look, see measure 5 of the same piece in the MS...the grace
is ascending after the note (4th beat) D(grace) to C#.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/errata/11lm_allemande_system2.jpg

M22 2nd beat...and 4th beat....the same...M24...the same....
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/errata/11lm_allemande_system6.jpg

-----

I'm also attempting contact with Barto, DA Smith, and others, on this
subject and various others. I've ordered numerous other LSA (lute society)
publications that I didn't have previously, and have a few other books on
order with my library in town.
Thank you for being so gracious and patient.

Rich
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Much obliged. On the surface it may seem you are right, but funny thing is,
I have quite a bit on the subject (not the Moscow...I wish), and have
researched it extensively but this is one topic that seems to escape the
discussion. What I mean are the nuances of such. I'm looking now. Most
grateful, MO.
Rich
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Robert, Roman, anyone ....
I posted this in another thread but didn't hear anything...I've posted
example measures from the same Sonata from Cardin's site, showing the
lute
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Richard F. Sayage
tab systems in question. thank you thank you....
I think you are counting too much on some one else's help, instead of
doing some basic reading yourself. I don't expect you to go and buy a
book on the subject, like my edition of the Moscow 'Weiss' manuscript,
which includes what is perhaps one of the better expositions of the
knowledge you are seeking. But you don't have to buy anything. This
document exists on line in my web site.
http://www.orphee.com/tim/weismain.htm
I would be shutting down this part of the web site sometime soon, so
get cracking and download it now.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Matanya Ophee
2005-12-17 17:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Reading thru this is great Matanya. Unfortunately, it doesn't answer
the "nuance" of the grace note, meaning its direction, coming from or to the
note, and the side of the note that it's on. Thru numerous examples of
Weiss, I've deduced it means what I transcribed in the allemande example,
but I'm looking for a definitive answer.
There is no definite answer. As a transcriber to another instrument,
it is your responsibility to adopt an editorial policy that will make
sense to future users of your transcriptions. No matter how you notate
the ornamentations, it is still up to the individual performer to
interpret the notation as they will. That is the reason why Tim
Crawford's transcription, and that of many other transcribers, simply
transfer the original notation of ornaments from the tablature to the
pitch notation without attempting to write it out. Before you attempt
to spoon-feed users of your transcription with one particular
interpretation, you will have to accept a priori that what you are
doing is _your_ personal interpretation and sign your name to it.

If you cannot decide to your own satisfaction what would _your_
personal interpretation be and how to sign your name to it, then
perhaps you should not be dealing with this music. Try Teleman
instead.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-17 19:39:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Reading thru this is great Matanya. Unfortunately, it doesn't answer
the "nuance" of the grace note, meaning its direction, coming from or to the
note, and the side of the note that it's on. Thru numerous examples of
Weiss, I've deduced it means what I transcribed in the allemande example,
but I'm looking for a definitive answer.
There is no definite answer. As a transcriber to another instrument,
it is your responsibility to adopt an editorial policy that will make
sense to future users of your transcriptions. No matter how you notate
the ornamentations, it is still up to the individual performer to
interpret the notation as they will. That is the reason why Tim
Crawford's transcription, and that of many other transcribers, simply
transfer the original notation of ornaments from the tablature to the
pitch notation without attempting to write it out. Before you attempt
to spoon-feed users of your transcription with one particular
interpretation, you will have to accept a priori that what you are
doing is _your_ personal interpretation and sign your name to it.
OK, no disagreement there, but I believe you're mistaken in my intent.
I'm not trying to "write" it out as it were, regardless of "previous"
efforts, but as of all present and future work, simply attempt to correctly
lay the grace note down in the proper manner given the context of the
original tablature.
On the definite answer part, I believe there is one, otherwise they
would all be written identically by the "given" composer; in essence, he is
telling us that you could interpret it any way you wish within "my" context,
meaning the composer's.
Post by Matanya Ophee
If you cannot decide to your own satisfaction what would _your_
personal interpretation be and how to sign your name to it, then
perhaps you should not be dealing with this music. Try Teleman
instead.
I'm doing that, but Telemann is pretty good too....hehehe

Rich
Post by Matanya Ophee
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Robert Crim
2005-12-16 19:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Robert, Roman, anyone ....
I posted this in another thread but didn't hear anything...I've posted
example measures from the same Sonata from Cardin's site, showing the lute
tab systems in question. thank you thank you....
I think you are counting too much on some one else's help, instead of
doing some basic reading yourself. I don't expect you to go and buy a
book on the subject, like my edition of the Moscow 'Weiss' manuscript,
which includes what is perhaps one of the better expositions of the
knowledge you are seeking. But you don't have to buy anything. This
document exists on line in my web site.
http://www.orphee.com/tim/weismain.htm
I would be shutting down this part of the web site sometime soon, so
get cracking and download it now.
Matanya Ophee
I would think that this http://home.hia.no/~perkf/doctor3.html would
be of a lot of help along with Satoh's method book, Lundgren's Baroque
lute Companion, and D.A. Smith's Weiss Dissertation.

What is "Cardin's Site" btw?

Robert
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-16 20:32:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Robert, Roman, anyone ....
I posted this in another thread but didn't hear anything...I've posted
example measures from the same Sonata from Cardin's site, showing the lute
tab systems in question. thank you thank you....
I think you are counting too much on some one else's help, instead of
doing some basic reading yourself. I don't expect you to go and buy a
book on the subject, like my edition of the Moscow 'Weiss' manuscript,
which includes what is perhaps one of the better expositions of the
knowledge you are seeking. But you don't have to buy anything. This
document exists on line in my web site.
http://www.orphee.com/tim/weismain.htm
I would be shutting down this part of the web site sometime soon, so
get cracking and download it now.
Matanya Ophee
I would think that this http://home.hia.no/~perkf/doctor3.html would
be of a lot of help along with Satoh's method book, Lundgren's Baroque
lute Companion, and D.A. Smith's Weiss Dissertation.
What is "Cardin's Site" btw?
Robert
Yes, I have Smith's dissertation, not the other two. I've been looking for
Lundgren's book. I'll get Satoh's also.
M. Cardin's Weiss site. At least I think it's his....slweiss.com

Rich
Arthur Ness
2005-12-20 23:04:23 UTC
Permalink
The Farstad dissertation cited below by Robert deals with how to transcribe 18th-century lute music for the eight-string guitar (this is not clear fromthe citation). The ornaments are really a mess in 17th- and 18th-century lute music, but an essential ingredient to the style. It would be a mistake to gloss over them, as Richard suggests. And I don't think many serious editor/transcribers would sanction writing them out. Instead there should be an explanation, especially since so few players are familiar with the signs and what they mean.

Per assembled most of the evidence in this article:

Per Kjetil Farstad, <<Ornaments in 18th Century German Lute Music,>> _Die Laute_ 2 (1998): 85-115 (in English). (He needs 30 pages to cover the subject!)

He also has a 2CD set, _Galant Guitar_ (LYNOR CD 9915) with works by Weiss (incl. L'Infedele), Falkenhagem, Hagen (the Locatelli variaions--perhaps the most virtuoso lute piece of the century), and Baron. It illustrates how essential are the ornaments.

Farstad's dissertation is "must" readingfor those with a serious interest in this repertory. He surely examined every exisiting piece of lute music from the 18th century. It's a gold mine!! And the must is so beautiful. It's proto-Romantic with those dashes of harmonic color.

ajn.
Post by Robert Crim
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Robert, Roman, anyone ....
I posted this in another thread but didn't hear anything...I've posted
example measures from the same Sonata from Cardin's site, showing the lute
tab systems in question. thank you thank you....
I think you are counting too much on some one else's help, instead of
doing some basic reading yourself. I don't expect you to go and buy a
book on the subject, like my edition of the Moscow 'Weiss' manuscript,
which includes what is perhaps one of the better expositions of the
knowledge you are seeking. But you don't have to buy anything. This
document exists on line in my web site.
http://www.orphee.com/tim/weismain.htm
I would be shutting down this part of the web site sometime soon, so
get cracking and download it now.
Matanya Ophee
I would think that this http://home.hia.no/~perkf/doctor3.html would
be of a lot of help along with Satoh's method book, Lundgren's Baroque
lute Companion, and D.A. Smith's Weiss Dissertation.
What is "Cardin's Site" btw?
Robert
Yes, I have Smith's dissertation, not the other two. I've been looking for
Lundgren's book. I'll get Satoh's also.
M. Cardin's Weiss site. At least I think it's his....slweiss.com

Rich
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-20 23:24:24 UTC
Permalink
"Arthur Ness" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:X50qf.1276$***@trndny09...
The Farstad dissertation cited below by Robert deals with how to transcribe 18th-century lute music for the eight-string guitar (this is not clear fromthe citation). The ornaments are really a mess in 17th- and 18th-century lute music, but an essential ingredient to the style. It would be a mistake to gloss over them, as Richard suggests. And I don't think many serious editor/transcribers would sanction writing them out. Instead there should be an explanation, especially since so few players are familiar with the signs and what they mean.

Per assembled most of the evidence in this article:

Per Kjetil Farstad, <<Ornaments in 18th Century German Lute Music,>> _Die Laute_ 2 (1998): 85-115 (in English). (He needs 30 pages to cover the subject!)

He also has a 2CD set, _Galant Guitar_ (LYNOR CD 9915) with works by Weiss (incl. L'Infedele), Falkenhagem, Hagen (the Locatelli variaions--perhaps the most virtuoso lute piece of the century), and Baron. It illustrates how essential are the ornaments.

Farstad's dissertation is "must" readingfor those with a serious interest in this repertory. He surely examined every exisiting piece of lute music from the 18th century. It's a gold mine!! And the must is so beautiful. It's proto-Romantic with those dashes of harmonic color.

ajn.

Thank you Arthur! Very helpful. And of course, you are correct. It was a grave error on my part and in the process of being wholly corrected. Much obliged.

Rich
Post by Robert Crim
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Robert, Roman, anyone ....
I posted this in another thread but didn't hear anything...I've posted
example measures from the same Sonata from Cardin's site, showing the lute
tab systems in question. thank you thank you....
I think you are counting too much on some one else's help, instead of
doing some basic reading yourself. I don't expect you to go and buy a
book on the subject, like my edition of the Moscow 'Weiss' manuscript,
which includes what is perhaps one of the better expositions of the
knowledge you are seeking. But you don't have to buy anything. This
document exists on line in my web site.
http://www.orphee.com/tim/weismain.htm
I would be shutting down this part of the web site sometime soon, so
get cracking and download it now.
Matanya Ophee
I would think that this http://home.hia.no/~perkf/doctor3.html would
be of a lot of help along with Satoh's method book, Lundgren's Baroque
lute Companion, and D.A. Smith's Weiss Dissertation.
What is "Cardin's Site" btw?
Robert
Yes, I have Smith's dissertation, not the other two. I've been looking for
Lundgren's book. I'll get Satoh's also.
M. Cardin's Weiss site. At least I think it's his....slweiss.com

Rich

Roman Turovsky
2005-12-17 18:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Robert, Roman, anyone ....
I don't read this too often.
Post by Richard F. Sayage
I posted this in another thread but didn't hear anything...I've posted
example measures from the same Sonata from Cardin's site, showing the lute
tab systems in question. thank you thank you....
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
This is making my head hurt....I thought, if the grace note is
descending ("written" as a descending grace on the MS now) that we are
coming from below the note, thus the G#-A sequence implied on the snapshot?
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/errata/11lm_allemande_system1.jpg
This is a prime example of how little of lute idiom is transferable to
guitar.
There aree 2 voices, one plays A, while second plays a slur of G#-A.
You should be asking these questions on the Baroque Lute list, where Barto
himself lurks.
RT
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-17 19:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roman Turovsky
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Robert, Roman, anyone ....
I don't read this too often.
don't blame you there...
Post by Roman Turovsky
Post by Richard F. Sayage
I posted this in another thread but didn't hear anything...I've posted
example measures from the same Sonata from Cardin's site, showing the lute
tab systems in question. thank you thank you....
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
This is making my head hurt....I thought, if the grace note is
descending ("written" as a descending grace on the MS now) that we are
coming from below the note, thus the G#-A sequence implied on the snapshot?
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/errata/11lm_allemande_system1.jpg
Post by Roman Turovsky
This is a prime example of how little of lute idiom is transferable to
guitar.
There aree 2 voices, one plays A, while second plays a slur of G#-A.
You should be asking these questions on the Baroque Lute list, where Barto
himself lurks.
RT
Well, yes and no....idiom is one thing, but a "rendition" for the
classical guitarist is only supposed to be that, not a replacement for the
original or the original instrument. In other words, I wouldn't want or
have lute players perform these copies and neither would they want to do so.
I understand that perfectly.
Ah, the BList....where does one find this? Believe me, I'd love to ask
him...who better?

Rich
Greg M. Silverman
2005-12-17 21:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Ah, the BList....where does one find this? Believe me, I'd love to ask
him...who better?
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-17 21:42:56 UTC
Permalink
thx Greg...I've already subscribed. I've been reading thru the archives for
some time now. Didn't realize it was the same place referenced by Roman.

Rich
Post by Greg M. Silverman
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Ah, the BList....where does one find this? Believe me, I'd love to ask
him...who better?
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Greg M. Silverman
2005-12-17 23:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
thx Greg...I've already subscribed. I've been reading thru the archives for
some time now. Didn't realize it was the same place referenced by Roman.
There are actually seperate lute and baroque lute lists, although I
believe they appear together in the archives, unlike the other lists
that Wayne maintains (viheula, historic guitar, etc.). Not a lot of
traffic on the baroque list, but usually it's more substantial in terms
of substance.

Peace!
Matanya Ophee
2005-12-18 03:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg M. Silverman
Post by Richard F. Sayage
thx Greg...I've already subscribed. I've been reading thru the archives for
some time now. Didn't realize it was the same place referenced by Roman.
There are actually seperate lute and baroque lute lists, although I
believe they appear together in the archives, unlike the other lists
that Wayne maintains (viheula, historic guitar, etc.). Not a lot of
traffic on the baroque list, but usually it's more substantial in terms
of substance.
I suspect Rich is going to be savaged on either of these lists for
doing the unspeakable: transcribing lute music for guitar! Some people
have no shame...

Oh yes, pun intended.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-18 04:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Greg M. Silverman
Post by Richard F. Sayage
thx Greg...I've already subscribed. I've been reading thru the archives for
some time now. Didn't realize it was the same place referenced by Roman.
There are actually seperate lute and baroque lute lists, although I
believe they appear together in the archives, unlike the other lists
that Wayne maintains (viheula, historic guitar, etc.). Not a lot of
traffic on the baroque list, but usually it's more substantial in terms
of substance.
I suspect Rich is going to be savaged on either of these lists for
doing the unspeakable: transcribing lute music for guitar! Some people
have no shame...
Oh yes, pun intended.
Matanya Ophee
hehehe, yes, I would imagine so....lmao....thx for that MO!

Rich
Richard Yates
2005-12-18 13:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Roman Turovsky wrote in message
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/errata/11lm_allemande_system1.jpg
Post by Roman Turovsky
This is a prime example of how little of lute idiom is transferable to
guitar.<

Agreed, at least about Weiss. So much of what is essential in his music is
so inextricably enmeshed with the tuning of the Baroque lute that the
similarities of lute and guitar become almost superficial. Too much ends up
lost in transcription.

Richard Yates
Roman Turovsky
2005-12-18 15:39:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/errata/11lm_allemande_system1.jpg
Post by Roman Turovsky
This is a prime example of how little of lute idiom is transferable to
guitar.<
Agreed, at least about Weiss. So much of what is essential in his music is
so inextricably enmeshed with the tuning of the Baroque lute that the
similarities of lute and guitar become almost superficial. Too much ends up
lost in transcription.
Richard Yates
imho these similarities have always been superficial, to say the
least.........
RT
--
==
http://polyhymnion.org

Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
Robert Crim
2005-12-18 15:57:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:39:45 GMT, "Roman Turovsky"
Post by Roman Turovsky
Post by Richard F. Sayage
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/errata/11lm_allemande_system1.jpg
Post by Roman Turovsky
This is a prime example of how little of lute idiom is transferable to
guitar.<
Agreed, at least about Weiss. So much of what is essential in his music is
so inextricably enmeshed with the tuning of the Baroque lute that the
similarities of lute and guitar become almost superficial. Too much ends up
lost in transcription.
Richard Yates
imho these similarities have always been superficial, to say the
least.........
RT
Agree completely for baroque lute in dmin tuning. Not so much for
renaissance lutes of 6 and 7 courses providing the guitarist drops the
third and capos the third fret. Many similarities exist in that case.

However, as the number of courses increases to 10, the guitarist
should be playing a "multi" stringed guitar. 10 course composers
such as Vallet and Galilei rely on the lower notes quite heavily.

IMHO.

Robert
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-18 16:34:14 UTC
Permalink
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question. See
topic above. Simple.

Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it stands
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.

http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg

Rich
Post by Richard Yates
Roman Turovsky wrote in message
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/errata/11lm_allemande_system1.jpg
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Roman Turovsky
This is a prime example of how little of lute idiom is transferable to
guitar.<
Agreed, at least about Weiss. So much of what is essential in his music is
so inextricably enmeshed with the tuning of the Baroque lute that the
similarities of lute and guitar become almost superficial. Too much ends up
lost in transcription.
Richard Yates
Roman Turovsky
2005-12-18 19:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question. See
topic above. Simple.
Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it stands
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
Rich
Not quite. The answer is YOU CANNOT NOTATE THIS FOR GUITAR ADEQUATELY.
PERIOD.
Removal of those details bastardizes the content of SLW's music.
Another point:
Why on earth did you assign the g-note in the 3rd bar to the upper voice
while it clearly belongs to the inner????
RT
Post by Richard F. Sayage
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/errata/11lm_allemande_system1.jpg
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Roman Turovsky
This is a prime example of how little of lute idiom is transferable to
guitar.<
Agreed, at least about Weiss. So much of what is essential in his music is
so inextricably enmeshed with the tuning of the Baroque lute that the
similarities of lute and guitar become almost superficial. Too much ends
up
Post by Richard Yates
lost in transcription.
Richard Yates
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-18 20:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roman Turovsky
Post by Richard F. Sayage
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question. See
topic above. Simple.
Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it stands
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
Rich
Not quite. The answer is YOU CANNOT NOTATE THIS FOR GUITAR ADEQUATELY.
PERIOD.
Removal of those details bastardizes the content of SLW's music.
Why on earth did you assign the g-note in the 3rd bar to the upper voice
while it clearly belongs to the inner????
RT
Sure you can Roman, just not to the standards of the lutenist. What
details...the doubling of courses, the unisons, the 7th double stops, etc?
Most times, these are not possible for the guitarist....why would I try?
Uhoh, can't get the unison, the project is busted??? hehehe...no...I don't
think so.

Regardless, "bastardization" of the music is a bit strong, imo.
Transcript work for any instrument to another implies a bit of
compromise...almost always! There's no getting away from that simple fact.
But, I have to refer to my original statement in this thread regarding this
music. "....a "rendition" for the classical guitarist is only supposed to
be that, not a replacement for the original or the original instrument. I
wouldn't want or have lute players perform these copies and neither would
they want to do so. I understand that perfectly."

Why this is a difficulty is not readily apparent, unless, haha...you are
a lutenist! As I adjust my editing choices, the music will be better
represented for the guitarist, holding as true as possible to the original,
given the guitar's limitations. This is an important distinction, one that
has to be accepted before proceeding, whether to work it or criticize it.
It is simply an opportunity for the guitarist to play some truly
wonderful music that would not be available to them otherwise, in a concise,
organized, complete Sonata form as written by the composer (versus piece
meal nonsense, which is mostly wrong, that is available to the guitarist in
various compendiums) and that which is guitar-specific regarding
marking/fingering.
The fact that Weiss wrote some of the most naturally flowing and
sometimes experimentally so music for his time cannot be taken away from any
instrument, especially the guitar. The beauty of it is that tunings can be
adjusted for the more knowledgeable guitarist, the addition of 2 to 4
courses above the guitar allow for deeper voices, given the natural tuning
plus the D, C, B, A of the lower strings, and so on. Still, it is not truly
"authentic", but it comes damned close and that's the point.
The point is, that, for instance, if Andrew Schulman, an 8 string guitar
specialist, were to request a copy of one of the sonatas, specific for his
instrument, I could adjust the score in a half hour to accommodate his 8
strings, and I would bet that it would sound gotdam good. Like Barto or
Hopkinson-Smith? No. Like Andrew? Yes!

As for the upper/inner voice "point", I saw that (at the time) and made
a choice for the guitarist. It actually would ring true regardless, but
you're correct, that should be to the inner voice. I'm tired and need rest,
on many fronts, this discussion, one in which I have tried to be open and
constructive within, being one of them. My editing chores for the previous
nine sonatas, including XI London MS (the one referenced in this thread),
begins in earnest tomorrow after a 2 day rest. I should be done by the New
Year. All other projects are put on hold as of tomorrow. This time of year
seems to be the time when I do this kind of thing, editing and such.

I will also offer free replacements to any and all buyers of my previous
Weiss publications that have been purchased prior to my upcoming re-edit.

My fault from the beginning; and that is my burden to bear on all
fronts. But, the end result will be fantastic. It is an enormous amount of
work and expense that I'm bound to do and give regarding my absolute
commitment to getting it balls on right for the YES....the
guitarist....hehehe, not the lutenist. That's your job and all other
lutenists/copyists/publishers.....

Respectfully,
Rich

--
Kindest Regards,

Richard F. Sayage
Savage Classical GT
Bay Shore, NY 11706
www.savageclassical.com
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/errata/11lm_allemande_system1.jpg
Post by Roman Turovsky
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Roman Turovsky
This is a prime example of how little of lute idiom is transferable to
guitar.<
Agreed, at least about Weiss. So much of what is essential in his music is
so inextricably enmeshed with the tuning of the Baroque lute that the
similarities of lute and guitar become almost superficial. Too much ends
up
Post by Richard Yates
lost in transcription.
Richard Yates
Richard Yates
2005-12-18 21:13:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Sure you can Roman, just not to the standards of the lutenist. What
details...the doubling of courses, the unisons, the 7th double stops, etc?
Most times, these are not possible for the guitarist....why would I try?
Uhoh, can't get the unison, the project is busted??? hehehe...no...I don't
think so.
The reservation I have is that you articulate no aesthetic balances or
limits in the choices you make. "hehehe" is much of an argument.

Richard Yates
Greg M. Silverman
2005-12-18 21:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Sure you can Roman, just not to the standards of the lutenist. What
details...the doubling of courses, the unisons, the 7th double stops, etc?
Most times, these are not possible for the guitarist....why would I try?
Uhoh, can't get the unison, the project is busted??? hehehe...no...I
don't
Post by Richard F. Sayage
think so.
The reservation I have is that you articulate no aesthetic balances or
limits in the choices you make. "hehehe" is much of an argument.
Richard Yates
hehehe :-)
Robert Crim
2005-12-19 00:11:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:55:31 -0600, "Greg M. Silverman"
Post by Greg M. Silverman
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Sure you can Roman, just not to the standards of the lutenist. What
details...the doubling of courses, the unisons, the 7th double stops, etc?
Most times, these are not possible for the guitarist....why would I try?
Uhoh, can't get the unison, the project is busted??? hehehe...no...I
don't
Post by Richard F. Sayage
think so.
The reservation I have is that you articulate no aesthetic balances or
limits in the choices you make. "hehehe" is much of an argument.
Richard Yates
hehehe :-)
????????

Robert
Greg M. Silverman
2005-12-19 01:57:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:55:31 -0600, "Greg M. Silverman"
Post by Greg M. Silverman
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Sure you can Roman, just not to the standards of the lutenist. What
details...the doubling of courses, the unisons, the 7th double stops, etc?
Most times, these are not possible for the guitarist....why would I try?
Uhoh, can't get the unison, the project is busted??? hehehe...no...I
don't
Post by Richard F. Sayage
think so.
The reservation I have is that you articulate no aesthetic balances or
limits in the choices you make. "hehehe" is much of an argument.
Richard Yates
hehehe :-)
????????
!!!!!!!!
Robert Crim
2005-12-19 02:00:04 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:57:15 -0600, "Greg M. Silverman"
Post by Greg M. Silverman
Post by Robert Crim
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:55:31 -0600, "Greg M. Silverman"
Post by Greg M. Silverman
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Sure you can Roman, just not to the standards of the lutenist. What
details...the doubling of courses, the unisons, the 7th double stops, etc?
Most times, these are not possible for the guitarist....why would I try?
Uhoh, can't get the unison, the project is busted??? hehehe...no...I
don't
Post by Richard F. Sayage
think so.
The reservation I have is that you articulate no aesthetic balances or
limits in the choices you make. "hehehe" is much of an argument.
Richard Yates
hehehe :-)
????????
!!!!!!!!
I must not be understanding the jargon.

No problemo, not worth the effort.

Robert
Greg M. Silverman
2005-12-19 03:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:57:15 -0600, "Greg M. Silverman"
Post by Greg M. Silverman
Post by Robert Crim
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:55:31 -0600, "Greg M. Silverman"
Post by Greg M. Silverman
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Sure you can Roman, just not to the standards of the lutenist. What
details...the doubling of courses, the unisons, the 7th double stops, etc?
Most times, these are not possible for the guitarist....why would I try?
Uhoh, can't get the unison, the project is busted??? hehehe...no...I
don't
Post by Richard F. Sayage
think so.
The reservation I have is that you articulate no aesthetic balances or
limits in the choices you make. "hehehe" is much of an argument.
Richard Yates
hehehe :-)
????????
!!!!!!!!
I must not be understanding the jargon.
Nothin more than a Dadaist statement on my part, in agreement with
Richard Yates astute query.
Post by Robert Crim
No problemo, not worth the effort.
You think I do? Am tired. Had first cross country ski today. Worked
muscle groups I forgot I had. Time to go read some Satanic Verses.
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-18 22:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Sure you can Roman, just not to the standards of the lutenist. What
details...the doubling of courses, the unisons, the 7th double stops, etc?
Most times, these are not possible for the guitarist....why would I try?
Uhoh, can't get the unison, the project is busted??? hehehe...no...I
don't
Post by Richard F. Sayage
think so.
The reservation I have is that you articulate no aesthetic balances or
limits in the choices you make. "hehehe" is much of an argument.
Richard Yates
The rest of the argument has been debated eloquently. Your own
reservations are of zero consequence to me. Those of the rest are already
at this stage. I am done with this aspect.
Constructive criticism is what I am and have been open to in any and all
of these discussions, from you or anyone with knowledge of the
music/instrument in question. Aesthetic balance...limits? It's two and
three voice music for chrissakes. Comparisons to the lute within such
confines of aestheticism is not right. It's for guitar, regardless of
original instrumental intent and the nuances of such. Your statement above
is even less of an argument, Richard.

But, your editing of the substance of the specific discussion and
inclusion of the above, which is mere comedy directed toward Roman
specifically, albeit poorishly so, is enough statement for anyone following
the threads.

I make mistakes...I admit them. I see errors, I own up to them. I'm
constantly open to criticism and ideas that help the music and the
guitarist. The fact remains that these jabs at myself are so facilitated is
a function of me throwing the balls on the table every time I post regarding
the work. Well, I'm tellin' you right now, you're all gonna need a gotdam
bigger table.

Rich
Richard Yates
2005-12-19 00:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard Yates
The reservation I have is that you articulate no aesthetic balances or
limits in the choices you make. "hehehe" is much of an argument.
Richard Yates
Aesthetic balance...limits? It's two and
three voice music for chrissakes. Comparisons to the lute within such
confines of aestheticism is not right. It's for guitar, regardless of
original instrumental intent and the nuances of such. Your statement above
is even less of an argument, Richard.
Huh? I don't think I made any argument at all. I just commented on your lack
of exposition of the principles that you follow in making a transcription.
If the question is so puzzling to you, then maybe you simply have none. I
believe there are lots of defensible and reasonable positions on the
fidelity of transcriptions - The Transcriber's Art articles are all about
that.

Richard Y
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-19 00:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard Yates
The reservation I have is that you articulate no aesthetic balances or
limits in the choices you make. "hehehe" is much of an argument.
Richard Yates
Aesthetic balance...limits? It's two and
three voice music for chrissakes. Comparisons to the lute within such
confines of aestheticism is not right. It's for guitar, regardless of
original instrumental intent and the nuances of such. Your statement
above
Post by Richard F. Sayage
is even less of an argument, Richard.
Huh? I don't think I made any argument at all. I just commented on your lack
of exposition of the principles that you follow in making a transcription.
If the question is so puzzling to you, then maybe you simply have none. I
believe there are lots of defensible and reasonable positions on the
fidelity of transcriptions - The Transcriber's Art articles are all about
that.
Richard Y
Then the comment is vacuous as is your follow-up. It is solely designed
to inflame and I will have no more of it. I have yet to hear anything
constructive from you.
Quote: "your lack of exposition of the principles that you follow in
making a transcription."? is your follow-up to "The reservation I have is
that you articulate no aesthetic balances or limits in the choices you make.
"hehehe" is (not) much of an argument." -end quote.

You're kidding....you must be...

Rich
Richard Yates
2005-12-19 00:58:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Then the comment is vacuous as is your follow-up. It is solely designed
to inflame and I will have no more of it. I have yet to hear anything
constructive from you.
Quote: "your lack of exposition of the principles that you follow in
making a transcription."? is your follow-up to "The reservation I have is
that you articulate no aesthetic balances or limits in the choices you make.
"hehehe" is (not) much of an argument." -end quote.
You're kidding....you must be...Rich
I did not intend to inflame, only to elicit some general statement about
your approaches to transcription. You have quoted me accurately but seem to
infer, but not explain, something contradictory or nonsensical. "You're
kidding" doesn't make it clear at all.

In the absence of any statement from you, you really do leave others to
assume that, in transcription, you give no thought or judgment to the
tradeoffs in the decisions that you make, you just do it. My experience is
that following this course can lead to haphazard results.

Richard
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-19 01:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Then the comment is vacuous as is your follow-up. It is solely
designed
Post by Richard F. Sayage
to inflame and I will have no more of it. I have yet to hear anything
constructive from you.
Quote: "your lack of exposition of the principles that you follow in
making a transcription."? is your follow-up to "The reservation I have is
that you articulate no aesthetic balances or limits in the choices you
make.
Post by Richard F. Sayage
"hehehe" is (not) much of an argument." -end quote.
You're kidding....you must be...Rich
I did not intend to inflame, only to elicit some general statement about
your approaches to transcription. You have quoted me accurately but seem to
infer, but not explain, something contradictory or nonsensical. "You're
kidding" doesn't make it clear at all.
In the absence of any statement from you, you really do leave others to
assume that, in transcription, you give no thought or judgment to the
tradeoffs in the decisions that you make, you just do it. My experience is
that following this course can lead to haphazard results.
Richard
I've made lots of statements, Richard, in this regard, as it relates to
the original Weiss MS versus the relative "rendition" for the guitar. The
nonsense within may be that you have not read everything I have written OR
asked....and I have asked more than anything. So....please assume anything
you wish. I will not do this any more, as it has its price.
As the work sits now, and as it continually develops from this point, we
shall see that much thought has gone into the use of various technique to
elicit a good sound for the guitar. Not to emulate the lute, but to do
justice to the music itself for the intended instrument. I have done much
of this already, but have clearly erred in many key places, as I continue to
discover, going back over each single manuscript that I've already
completed. I am about ready to sit down and fix this with every effort.
The better news is that all forward work will benefit greatly from this
extremely valuable learning experience. I think the London MS XX in D Major
for CG is evidence of this already. But men such as Robert Crim, Matanya,
Roman, and certainly Robert Barto, if nothing but for his excellent
interpretations and recordings, have been extremely helpful.
I don't disagree with your last sentence.

Rich
Robert Crim
2005-12-19 02:06:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:58:11 -0500, "Richard F. Sayage"
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Then the comment is vacuous as is your follow-up. It is solely
designed
Post by Richard F. Sayage
to inflame and I will have no more of it. I have yet to hear anything
constructive from you.
Quote: "your lack of exposition of the principles that you follow
in
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard F. Sayage
making a transcription."? is your follow-up to "The reservation I have
is
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard F. Sayage
that you articulate no aesthetic balances or limits in the choices you
make.
Post by Richard F. Sayage
"hehehe" is (not) much of an argument." -end quote.
You're kidding....you must be...Rich
I did not intend to inflame, only to elicit some general statement about
your approaches to transcription. You have quoted me accurately but seem
to
Post by Richard F. Sayage
infer, but not explain, something contradictory or nonsensical. "You're
kidding" doesn't make it clear at all.
In the absence of any statement from you, you really do leave others to
assume that, in transcription, you give no thought or judgment to the
tradeoffs in the decisions that you make, you just do it. My experience is
that following this course can lead to haphazard results.
Richard
I've made lots of statements, Richard, in this regard, as it relates to
the original Weiss MS versus the relative "rendition" for the guitar. The
nonsense within may be that you have not read everything I have written OR
asked....and I have asked more than anything. So....please assume anything
you wish. I will not do this any more, as it has its price.
As the work sits now, and as it continually develops from this point, we
shall see that much thought has gone into the use of various technique to
elicit a good sound for the guitar. Not to emulate the lute, but to do
justice to the music itself for the intended instrument. I have done much
of this already, but have clearly erred in many key places, as I continue to
discover, going back over each single manuscript that I've already
completed. I am about ready to sit down and fix this with every effort.
The better news is that all forward work will benefit greatly from this
extremely valuable learning experience. I think the London MS XX in D Major
for CG is evidence of this already. But men such as Robert Crim, Matanya,
Roman, and certainly Robert Barto, if nothing but for his excellent
interpretations and recordings, have been extremely helpful.
I don't disagree with your last sentence.
Rich
Please remove my name from your list of "helpers." As far as I'm
concerned, what you are doing is crap.

Robert
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-19 02:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:58:11 -0500, "Richard F. Sayage"
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Then the comment is vacuous as is your follow-up. It is solely
designed
Post by Richard F. Sayage
to inflame and I will have no more of it. I have yet to hear anything
constructive from you.
Quote: "your lack of exposition of the principles that you follow
in
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard F. Sayage
making a transcription."? is your follow-up to "The reservation I have
is
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Richard F. Sayage
that you articulate no aesthetic balances or limits in the choices you
make.
Post by Richard F. Sayage
"hehehe" is (not) much of an argument." -end quote.
You're kidding....you must be...Rich
I did not intend to inflame, only to elicit some general statement about
your approaches to transcription. You have quoted me accurately but seem
to
Post by Richard F. Sayage
infer, but not explain, something contradictory or nonsensical. "You're
kidding" doesn't make it clear at all.
In the absence of any statement from you, you really do leave others to
assume that, in transcription, you give no thought or judgment to the
tradeoffs in the decisions that you make, you just do it. My experience is
that following this course can lead to haphazard results.
Richard
I've made lots of statements, Richard, in this regard, as it relates to
the original Weiss MS versus the relative "rendition" for the guitar.
The
Post by Robert Crim
Post by Richard F. Sayage
nonsense within may be that you have not read everything I have written OR
asked....and I have asked more than anything. So....please assume anything
you wish. I will not do this any more, as it has its price.
As the work sits now, and as it continually develops from this point, we
shall see that much thought has gone into the use of various technique to
elicit a good sound for the guitar. Not to emulate the lute, but to do
justice to the music itself for the intended instrument. I have done much
of this already, but have clearly erred in many key places, as I continue to
discover, going back over each single manuscript that I've already
completed. I am about ready to sit down and fix this with every effort.
The better news is that all forward work will benefit greatly from this
extremely valuable learning experience. I think the London MS XX in D Major
for CG is evidence of this already. But men such as Robert Crim, Matanya,
Roman, and certainly Robert Barto, if nothing but for his excellent
interpretations and recordings, have been extremely helpful.
I don't disagree with your last sentence.
Rich
Please remove my name from your list of "helpers." As far as I'm
concerned, what you are doing is crap.
Robert
Thank you for the publicity, Robert. I couldn't have paid you enough
for that alone. and yes....done!

Rich
Robert Crim
2005-12-19 01:16:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:34:14 -0500, "Richard F. Sayage"
Post by Richard F. Sayage
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question. See
topic above. Simple.
Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it stands
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
Rich
Three measures down......how many measures in how many pieces are
left. Do you intend to go through this same process for all of the
others?

Robert the luteboy
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-19 01:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:34:14 -0500, "Richard F. Sayage"
Post by Richard F. Sayage
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question. See
topic above. Simple.
Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it stands
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
Rich
Three measures down......how many measures in how many pieces are
left. Do you intend to go through this same process for all of the
others?
Robert the luteboy
Yes.

Rich the haphazard
Robert Crim
2005-12-19 01:36:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:33:34 -0500, "Richard F. Sayage"
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Robert Crim
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:34:14 -0500, "Richard F. Sayage"
Post by Richard F. Sayage
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question. See
topic above. Simple.
Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it
stands
Post by Robert Crim
Post by Richard F. Sayage
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
Rich
Three measures down......how many measures in how many pieces are
left. Do you intend to go through this same process for all of the
others?
Robert the luteboy
Yes.
Rich the haphazard
Lovely. I look forward to watching the process.

Robert
Matanya Ophee
2005-12-19 02:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Robert Crim
Three measures down......how many measures in how many pieces are
left. Do you intend to go through this same process for all of the
others?
Robert the luteboy
Yes.
Rich the haphazard
Lovely. I look forward to watching the process.
You like to watch?

(it's getting to be an open case of voyerism...)

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Robert Crim
2005-12-19 02:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
You like to watch?
(it's getting to be an open case of voyerism...)
Yes, indeed. This soap opera is getting to be quite fascinating. I
can wait 'till Daniel walks into the lion's den without the blessings
of Sr. Weiss to protect him.

Robert
Stanley Yates
2005-12-19 18:25:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question. See
topic above. Simple.
Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it stands
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
No it isn't; the slashed grace notes you're using didn't exist until the
later 18th century.

SY
Stanley Yates
2005-12-19 18:29:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question. See
topic above. Simple.
Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it stands
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
No it isn't; the slashed grace notes you're using didn't exist until the
later 18th century.
SY
Are they appogiaturas, short appoggiaturas or acciaccaturas? If you don't
know the answer to this question, it might be best to leave this music alone
until you do.

SY
Matanya Ophee
2005-12-19 19:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question. See
topic above. Simple.
Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it stands
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
No it isn't; the slashed grace notes you're using didn't exist until the
later 18th century.
SY
Are they appogiaturas, short appoggiaturas or acciaccaturas? If you don't
know the answer to this question, it might be best to leave this music alone
until you do.
I already made this suggestion to Rich, but he seems adamant on
forging ahead. Blindly. His perseverance is amazing. The only thing I
worry about is how much garbage music will be unleashed on the public
this way, until Rich finds his way to knowledge.

Incidentally, it would be good to remember that the slashed grace
notes where used in the 18th century as both long and short
appoggiaturas, since it was assumed that musicians would know, from
the musical context, which ones were intended and would not need to be
spoon-fed by the composer or publisher.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Stanley Yates
2005-12-19 19:44:23 UTC
Permalink
, until Rich finds his way to knowledge.
Post by Matanya Ophee
Incidentally, it would be good to remember that the slashed grace
notes where used in the 18th century as both long and short
appoggiaturas, since it was assumed that musicians would know, from
the musical context, which ones were intended and would not need to be
spoon-fed by the composer or publisher.
True.

SY
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-20 03:33:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question. See
topic above. Simple.
Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it stands
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
No it isn't; the slashed grace notes you're using didn't exist until the
later 18th century.
SY
Are they appogiaturas, short appoggiaturas or acciaccaturas? If you don't
know the answer to this question, it might be best to leave this music alone
until you do.
SY
You seem to want a strict answer. The answer is, there quite possibly
is none. Looking at typical Baroque usage, we know that the time was
usually borrowed, and rather strictly. 1/2 to 2/3 of the time given
dependent upon the attachment. But...this is Weiss. Before I continue, I
am not aware of any written documents highlighting Weiss' preferences and
interpretations, much like we have from Bach, regarding ornamentation. Even
here, in Bach's pen, you're right, we don't see use of the slash, truth is,
we don't see it un-slashed either. What we see is something that looks
remarkably similar (though not identical) to what Weiss himself used from
below or above the note, indicating an accent, or the grace, ascending or
descending. This was the point of my original question I might add.
Regardless.....
Indications are that, being the prolific performer and excellent
improvisationalist, he "might" have played them straight up the first time
around and then went off on further embellishments the second time thru.
Listening to a number of "modern" interpretations of the same piece, it
would seem to be up to the performer, and what they feel the music requires.
Barto's use of ornaments, including unmarked turns, besides marked graces
(quick and not so quick) is excellent. Some of them are not indicated or
at least not the way you might look or think of it at first? Regardless,
they sound great. After reading thru hundreds of pieces, and listening to
numerous interpretations from myriad lutenists, it seems plausible that
Weiss left it somewhat wide open in some instances, if not many. Many of
these individual performances and interpretations of any given Sonata sound
very good to me, regardless of who I might prefer as a whole.
So, I write it as correctly as possible for the standard classical
guitarist via the original MS tablature, with accompanying footnotes, and
other illustrative examples, and leave it to the player to interpret as they
wish, while offering them the best solution to position and fingering to
allow the guitar to ring as true as possible. Quite frankly, the latter was
my first priority, succeeding for the most part, but in doing so I lost
sight of certain nuances of the original music and scores, at least those
that are playable on the 6 string guitar. I am well on my way to fixing
this misstep on my part, as discussed above.

Rich
Alain Reiher
2005-12-20 06:57:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question. See
topic above. Simple.
Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it stands
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
No it isn't; the slashed grace notes you're using didn't exist until the
later 18th century.
SY
Are they appogiaturas, short appoggiaturas or acciaccaturas? If you don't
know the answer to this question, it might be best to leave this music
alone
Post by Stanley Yates
until you do.
SY
You seem to want a strict answer. The answer is, there quite possibly
is none. Looking at typical Baroque usage, we know that the time was
usually borrowed, and rather strictly. 1/2 to 2/3 of the time given
dependent upon the attachment. But...this is Weiss. Before I continue, I
am not aware of any written documents highlighting Weiss' preferences and
interpretations, much like we have from Bach, regarding ornamentation.
Even
here, in Bach's pen, you're right, we don't see use of the slash, truth is,
we don't see it un-slashed either. What we see is something that looks
remarkably similar (though not identical) to what Weiss himself used from
below or above the note, indicating an accent, or the grace, ascending or
descending. This was the point of my original question I might add.
Regardless.....
Indications are that, being the prolific performer and excellent
improvisationalist, he "might" have played them straight up the first time
around and then went off on further embellishments the second time thru.
Listening to a number of "modern" interpretations of the same piece, it
would seem to be up to the performer, and what they feel the music requires.
Barto's use of ornaments, including unmarked turns, besides marked graces
(quick and not so quick) is excellent. Some of them are not indicated or
at least not the way you might look or think of it at first? Regardless,
they sound great. After reading thru hundreds of pieces, and listening to
numerous interpretations from myriad lutenists, it seems plausible that
Weiss left it somewhat wide open in some instances, if not many. Many of
these individual performances and interpretations of any given Sonata sound
very good to me, regardless of who I might prefer as a whole.
So, I write it as correctly as possible for the standard classical
guitarist via the original MS tablature, with accompanying footnotes, and
other illustrative examples, and leave it to the player to interpret as they
wish, while offering them the best solution to position and fingering to
allow the guitar to ring as true as possible. Quite frankly, the latter was
my first priority, succeeding for the most part, but in doing so I lost
sight of certain nuances of the original music and scores, at least those
that are playable on the 6 string guitar. I am well on my way to fixing
this misstep on my part, as discussed above.
Rich
Hehehe!
Hahaha!
Hohoho!
Richard ... I am on your side for this one. Nothing new here ... it is
probablablablably known since the 1940's (if not way before) that the six
string guitar cannot do justice to the music of S.L. Weiss ! There is no end
to the argument against ... especially when it comes to ornementation!
But ... this being said ... Alexandre Lagoya, Julian Bream, Andres Segovia
to name but 3 have played his music on the guitare and ironically, many
frustrated guitarists upon hearing their interpretation were inspired to
switch to the lute!
An interesting experience would be to put side by side two good mp3 of the
same Weiss piece ... one on the guitar one on the lute sit back and just
enjoy this exquisite music!

Alain
Richard F. Sayage
2005-12-20 11:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
This is also a prime example of how no one answers a question.
See
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Richard F. Sayage
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Richard F. Sayage
topic above. Simple.
Regardless, the question has been answered. The allemande as it stands
now is correctly notated for the guitar. Thank you all.
http://www.savageclassical.com/music/jpgs/weiss_lm11_allemande.jpg
No it isn't; the slashed grace notes you're using didn't exist until the
later 18th century.
SY
Are they appogiaturas, short appoggiaturas or acciaccaturas? If you don't
know the answer to this question, it might be best to leave this music
alone
Post by Stanley Yates
until you do.
SY
You seem to want a strict answer. The answer is, there quite possibly
is none. Looking at typical Baroque usage, we know that the time was
usually borrowed, and rather strictly. 1/2 to 2/3 of the time given
dependent upon the attachment. But...this is Weiss. Before I continue, I
am not aware of any written documents highlighting Weiss' preferences and
interpretations, much like we have from Bach, regarding ornamentation.
Even
here, in Bach's pen, you're right, we don't see use of the slash, truth is,
we don't see it un-slashed either. What we see is something that looks
remarkably similar (though not identical) to what Weiss himself used from
below or above the note, indicating an accent, or the grace, ascending or
descending. This was the point of my original question I might add.
Regardless.....
Indications are that, being the prolific performer and excellent
improvisationalist, he "might" have played them straight up the first time
around and then went off on further embellishments the second time thru.
Listening to a number of "modern" interpretations of the same piece, it
would seem to be up to the performer, and what they feel the music requires.
Barto's use of ornaments, including unmarked turns, besides marked graces
(quick and not so quick) is excellent. Some of them are not indicated or
at least not the way you might look or think of it at first?
Regardless,
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Richard F. Sayage
they sound great. After reading thru hundreds of pieces, and listening to
numerous interpretations from myriad lutenists, it seems plausible that
Weiss left it somewhat wide open in some instances, if not many. Many of
these individual performances and interpretations of any given Sonata sound
very good to me, regardless of who I might prefer as a whole.
So, I write it as correctly as possible for the standard classical
guitarist via the original MS tablature, with accompanying footnotes, and
other illustrative examples, and leave it to the player to interpret as they
wish, while offering them the best solution to position and fingering to
allow the guitar to ring as true as possible. Quite frankly, the latter was
my first priority, succeeding for the most part, but in doing so I lost
sight of certain nuances of the original music and scores, at least those
that are playable on the 6 string guitar. I am well on my way to fixing
this misstep on my part, as discussed above.
Rich
Hehehe!
Hahaha!
Hohoho!
Richard ... I am on your side for this one. Nothing new here ... it is
probablablablably known since the 1940's (if not way before) that the six
string guitar cannot do justice to the music of S.L. Weiss ! There is no end
to the argument against ... especially when it comes to ornementation!
But ... this being said ... Alexandre Lagoya, Julian Bream, Andres Segovia
to name but 3 have played his music on the guitare and ironically, many
frustrated guitarists upon hearing their interpretation were inspired to
switch to the lute!
An interesting experience would be to put side by side two good mp3 of the
same Weiss piece ... one on the guitar one on the lute sit back and just
enjoy this exquisite music!
Alain
LOL....of course...I am tempted many times myself. If I could tune it,
I might give it another whirl.

Rich
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