Discussion:
The True Life of J. S. Bach
(too old to reply)
h***@verizon.net
2008-01-03 03:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Did anyone ever read The True Life of J. S. Bach by Klaus Eidam? I
just did and he has some remarkable things to say about the life of
our favorite guy that seem to turn the stuff I've learned over the
years on its head. I have never read the biographies of JSB by Spitta
and Schwietzer or Terry so it's not possible for me to see exactly how
Mr. Eidam relates to them, even though he directly refers to them over
and over pointing out how he felt they missed important things in
Bach's life.

Seth
Tommy Grand
2008-01-03 03:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Did anyone ever read The True Life of J. S. Bach by Klaus Eidam? I
just did and he has some remarkable things to say about the life of
our favorite guy that seem to turn the stuff I've learned over the
years on its head.
If these facts are so remarkable, why didn't you mention a single one?
Andrew Schulman
2008-01-03 04:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Did anyone ever read The True Life of J. S. Bach by Klaus Eidam?  I
just did and he has some remarkable things to say about the life of
our favorite guy that seem to turn the stuff I've learned over the
years on its head.  I have never read the biographies of JSB by Spitta
and Schwietzer or Terry so it's not possible for me to see exactly how
Mr. Eidam relates to them, even though he directly refers to them over
and over pointing out how he felt they missed important things in
Bach's life.
I just read, over the last few months, the Christoph Wollf bio, "J.S.
Bach: The Learned Musician", and his revised, "The New Bach Reader".
What are some of the things you are referring to?

Andrew
Che
2008-01-03 05:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Did anyone ever read The True Life of J. S. Bach by Klaus Eidam?  I
just did and he has some remarkable things to say about the life of
our favorite guy that seem to turn the stuff I've learned over the
years on its head.  I have never read the biographies of JSB by Spitta
and Schwietzer or Terry so it's not possible for me to see exactly how
Mr. Eidam relates to them, even though he directly refers to them over
and over pointing out how he felt they missed important things in
Bach's life.
Seth
Sir, this is the Barnyard, we demand facts, evidence, information,
knowledge and particulars to support these claims.
Did you read that here: http://tinyurl.com/2jwm3f

Che'
Che
2008-01-03 06:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Did anyone ever read The True Life of J. S. Bach by Klaus Eidam?  I
just did and he has some remarkable things to say about the life of
our favorite guy that seem to turn the stuff I've learned over the
years on its head.  I have never read the biographies of JSB by Spitta
and Schwietzer or Terry so it's not possible for me to see exactly how
Mr. Eidam relates to them, even though he directly refers to them over
and over pointing out how he felt they missed important things in
Bach's life.
Seth
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=1946
h***@verizon.net
2008-01-03 12:57:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
Did anyone ever read The True Life of J. S. Bach by Klaus Eidam?  I
just did and he has some remarkable things to say about the life of
our favorite guy that seem to turn the stuff I've learned over the
years on its head.  I have never read the biographies of JSB by Spitta
and Schwietzer or Terry so it's not possible for me to see exactly how
Mr. Eidam relates to them, even though he directly refers to them over
and over pointing out how he felt they missed important things in
Bach's life.
Seth
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=1946
OK, OK, I posted in haste and did not put anything but a seemingly
idle question in my post!

I found interesting the way Eidam asserts that Bach did not have
difficulty in Leipzig due to his own uncooperativeness, but due to the
active resistance of the town council there. Also that the St.
Matthew Passion and similar works were not well received by the
council or the townspeople due to being "too operatic".

Another interesting assertion was his statement that Bach was not
"semi-retired" at the end of the time he spent in Leipzig, that he was
actively pushed out by Ernesti, the Thomas School headmaster, and that
during this period, he was truly composing some of his greatest works
and had secured the position of Royal Composer to the king of Poland
in order to protect himself from being further thwarted in his
activities.

Over and over, Eidam dismisses any assertion that Bach was imitating
others in the way he created music such as the Art of the Fugue or the
Goldberg variations and he has no use for the idea that Bach was
forgotten and ignored in the years after his death. He cites many
examples of a select group of great musicians copying and collecting
his scored and disseminating his ideas in their teaching.

One area I found heartbreaking was the description of his two cataract
operations, which caused him to be blind for months and then how as
soon as he recovered his sight, he had a stroke and died!

A tough time to live, the 18th century.

Che, thanks for the above link, it has some of the type of insight
into Eidam's writing that I was looking for.

Seth
Che
2008-01-03 17:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Have you been to the Morgan, Pierpont, Library. 33 E. 36th St. New
York?

Che'
h***@verizon.net
2008-01-03 19:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Have you been to the  Morgan, Pierpont, Library. 33 E. 36th St. New
York?
Che'
I have not. Why do you ask?

S
Che
2008-01-04 01:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Have you been to the  Morgan, Pierpont, Library. 33 E. 36th St. New
York?
Che'
I have not.  Why do you ask?
S
Aside from the traffic it's only a day trip for you. I'll bet you
could take a train. It impressed me as much as any library or museum
as I've visited. It is of particular interest to musicians. There
are musics and recordings the public has no idea exist. Before the
internet I was constantly seeking out great libraries and museums. I
thought it might be the sort of thing that would interest you.
http://www.morganlibrary.org/ I went there to see, for myself, some
rare music. Someone who takes for his/her own this:
or a younger:
and


Che'
h***@verizon.net
2008-01-04 03:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Aside from the traffic it's only a day trip for you.  I'll bet you
could take a train.  It impressed me as much as any library or museum
as I've visited.  It is of particular interest to musicians.  There
are musics and recordings the public has no idea exist.  Before the
internet I was constantly seeking out great libraries and museums.  I
thought it might be the sort of thing that would interest you.http://www.morganlibrary.org/ I went there to see, for myself, some
rare music.  Someone who takes for his/her own
a http://youtu.be/rtfLpyPn_Ao
Che'
Dear Che,

Thanks for pointing out the Morgan Library as a destination! I will
definitely pay it a visit, if only to pay homage to an actual Mozart
autograph score!
And isn't Granados gorgeous! Great video links. I think the best
part of this newsgroup is the sharing of video clip links!

Seth
Che
2008-01-04 08:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Aside from the traffic it's only a day trip for you.  I'll bet you
could take a train.  It impressed me as much as any library or museum
as I've visited.  It is of particular interest to musicians.  There
are musics and recordings the public has no idea exist.  Before the
internet I was constantly seeking out great libraries and museums.  I
thought it might be the sort of thing that would interest you.http://www.morganlibrary.org/ I went there to see, for myself, some
rare music.  Someone who takes for his/her own
http://youtu.be/VzTLBro45JY
Che'
Dear Che,
Thanks for pointing out the Morgan Library as a destination!   I will
definitely pay it a visit, if only to pay homage to an actual Mozart
autograph score!
And isn't Granados gorgeous!  Great video links.   I think the best
part of this newsgroup is the sharing of video clip links!
Seth
I think the best part of this newsgroup is the crazy way it works and
what people say. Hombre, you have to laugh sometimes... I noted this:

Discussion subject changed to "The Fake Life of J.S. Bach" by Tommy
Grand

We can always count on this. Incidentally, to outsiders and newbes,
it may seem like there are a lot of venemous attacks going on in
RMCG. Some of us think it's a good thing in the end, some people just
need that sort of fire and controversy to keep working and motivated
to keep an edge. Its also vital to remain skeptical of everything and
anything (that includes above all, yourself) so controversy really
serves its purpose. People get used to it, and then its all fun and
games thereafter.

When things aren't spitting fire they complain the NG is dying on the
vine. I know some of valued idiots really crack me up an I just sit
and laugh. Most often I'm laughing when crafting the next post. We
just can't take it too serious. We are just making it edgey and dark
or sublime with delight as the notions strike us. What's not to like
about that?

People say there have been a lot of drop-outs over the years. Yep,
most people were reading RMCG at work. This is a known fact pre-911.
There has been a real crack down on internet use in most business
concerns and people are working longer and harder each passing year.
In today's news oil is expected to hit $100 a barrel. That means
$4.00 a gallon gas. That may be an up-side for RMCG...people will
stay home and travel less having more time to read and post. On the
down-side some may have to get a second job!

Che'
j***@gmail.com
2008-01-03 19:11:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by Che
Did anyone ever read The True Life of J. S. Bach by Klaus Eidam?  I
just did and he has some remarkable things to say about the life of
our favorite guy that seem to turn the stuff I've learned over the
years on its head.  I have never read the biographies of JSB by Spitta
and Schwietzer or Terry so it's not possible for me to see exactly how
Mr. Eidam relates to them, even though he directly refers to them over
and over pointing out how he felt they missed important things in
Bach's life.
Seth
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=1946
OK, OK, I posted in haste and did not put anything but a seemingly
idle question in my post!
I found interesting the way Eidam asserts that Bach did not have
difficulty in Leipzig due to his own uncooperativeness, but due to the
active resistance of the town council there.  Also that the St.
Matthew Passion and similar works were not well received by the
council or the townspeople due to being "too operatic".
Another interesting assertion was his statement that Bach was not
"semi-retired" at the end of the time he spent in Leipzig, that he was
actively pushed out by Ernesti, the Thomas School headmaster, and that
during this period, he was truly composing some of his greatest works
and had secured the position of Royal Composer to the king of Poland
in order to protect himself from being further thwarted in his
activities.
Over and over, Eidam dismisses any assertion that Bach was imitating
others in the way he created music such as the Art of the Fugue or the
Goldberg  variations and he has no use for the idea that Bach was
forgotten and ignored in the years after his death.  He cites many
examples of a select group of great musicians copying and collecting
his scored and disseminating his ideas in their teaching.
One area I found heartbreaking was the description of his two cataract
operations, which caused him to be blind for months and then how as
soon as he recovered his sight, he had a stroke and died!
A tough time to live, the 18th century.
Che, thanks for the above link, it has some of the type of insight
into Eidam's writing that I was looking for.
Seth
Well, none of those things change my admiration for him. I thought
maybe you were going to bring up some personality foibles we hadn't
known about.

As to being forgotten, Mozart and Beethoven were well aware of him,
and of course Bach's sons were very well-known composers.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2008-01-03 19:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
Well, none of those things change my admiration for him. I thought
maybe you were going to bring up some personality foibles we hadn't
known about.
As to being forgotten, Mozart and Beethoven were well aware of him,
and of course Bach's sons were very well-known composers.
My impression from what (decidedly scattered) reading I've done has
given me the impression that he was not so much considered forgotten as
considered "old hat" to the new Classicism.
I know that Copland considered Bach as pretty much the apotheosis of
Baroque practice, certainly not a revolutionary the way (for example)
Berlioz or Wagner were. He was described as occupying a similar
position to Brahms a century plus later in his relation to romanticism.

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
h***@verizon.net
2008-01-03 19:54:19 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 3, 2:42 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Well, none of those things change my admiration for him.  I thought
maybe you were going to bring up some personality foibles we hadn't
known about.
As to being forgotten, Mozart and Beethoven were well aware of him,
and of course Bach's sons were very well-known composers.
        My impression from what (decidedly scattered) reading I've done has
given me the impression that he was not so much considered forgotten as
considered "old hat" to the new Classicism.
        I know that Copland considered Bach as pretty much the apotheosis of
Baroque practice, certainly not a revolutionary the way (for example)
Berlioz or Wagner were.  He was described as occupying a similar
position to Brahms a century plus later in his relation to romanticism.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
That is exactly the idea that Eidam seeks to refute. He states that
Bach's music was deeper and more profound than anything that came
before or after it. For instance, who else wrote preludes and fugues
in all 24 keys not once but twice? Also, his work on the Musical
Offering and the Art of the Fugue were unique as well. Eidam stated
that the reason the musicians of his era kept going back to his
material was indeed this revolutionary quality.

S
Andrew Schulman
2008-01-03 20:03:48 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 3, 2:54 pm, "***@verizon.net" <***@verizon.net>
wrote: He states that
Post by h***@verizon.net
Bach's music was deeper and more profound than anything that came
before or after it.  
Certainly nothing new here in the history of Bach writers.

Andrew
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2008-01-03 20:08:22 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 3, 2:42 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by j***@gmail.com
Well, none of those things change my admiration for him. I thought
maybe you were going to bring up some personality foibles we hadn't
known about.
As to being forgotten, Mozart and Beethoven were well aware of him,
and of course Bach's sons were very well-known composers.
My impression from what (decidedly scattered) reading I've done has
given me the impression that he was not so much considered forgotten as
considered "old hat" to the new Classicism.
I know that Copland considered Bach as pretty much the apotheosis of
Baroque practice, certainly not a revolutionary the way (for example)
Berlioz or Wagner were. He was described as occupying a similar
position to Brahms a century plus later in his relation to romanticism.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
That is exactly the idea that Eidam seeks to refute. He states that
Bach's music was deeper and more profound than anything that came
before or after it. For instance, who else wrote preludes and fugues
in all 24 keys not once but twice? Also, his work on the Musical
Offering and the Art of the Fugue were unique as well. Eidam stated
that the reason the musicians of his era kept going back to his
material was indeed this revolutionary quality.
S
This may be a semantical misunderstanding. I don't (for example) think
that profundity need be "revolutionary". He was using a pre-existing
baroque musical vocabulary. I'm not saying Schoenberg was a better, or
a more profound composer than was Bach; quite the contrary in my
laughably uninformed opinion. But was Bach revolutionary? Did they
riot when the WTC was first played, the way they supposedly did on the
first playing of Le Sacre de Printemps?

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Carlos Barrientos
2008-01-04 01:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
On Jan 3, 2:42 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by j***@gmail.com
Well, none of those things change my admiration for him. I thought
maybe you were going to bring up some personality foibles we hadn't
known about.
As to being forgotten, Mozart and Beethoven were well aware of him,
and of course Bach's sons were very well-known composers.
My impression from what (decidedly scattered) reading I've done has
given me the impression that he was not so much considered forgotten as
considered "old hat" to the new Classicism.
I know that Copland considered Bach as pretty much the apotheosis of
Baroque practice, certainly not a revolutionary the way (for example)
Berlioz or Wagner were. He was described as occupying a similar
position to Brahms a century plus later in his relation to romanticism.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
That is exactly the idea that Eidam seeks to refute. He states that
Bach's music was deeper and more profound than anything that came
before or after it. For instance, who else wrote preludes and fugues
in all 24 keys not once but twice? Also, his work on the Musical
Offering and the Art of the Fugue were unique as well. Eidam stated
that the reason the musicians of his era kept going back to his
material was indeed this revolutionary quality.
S
This may be a semantical misunderstanding. I don't (for example) think
that profundity need be "revolutionary". He was using a pre-existing
baroque musical vocabulary. I'm not saying Schoenberg was a better, or
a more profound composer than was Bach; quite the contrary in my
laughably uninformed opinion. But was Bach revolutionary? Did they
riot when the WTC was first played, the way they supposedly did on the
first playing of Le Sacre de Printemps?
The Germans riot? mmm...
The French and the Sacre... it could happen...
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512-218-8322)
j***@gmail.com
2008-01-05 08:10:40 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 3, 3:08 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
On Jan 3, 2:42 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by j***@gmail.com
Well, none of those things change my admiration for him. I thought
maybe you were going to bring up some personality foibles we hadn't
known about.
As to being forgotten, Mozart and Beethoven were well aware of him,
and of course Bach's sons were very well-known composers.
My impression from what (decidedly scattered) reading I've done has
given me the impression that he was not so much considered forgotten as
considered "old hat" to the new Classicism.
I know that Copland considered Bach as pretty much the apotheosis of
Baroque practice, certainly not a revolutionary the way (for example)
Berlioz or Wagner were. He was described as occupying a similar
position to Brahms a century plus later in his relation to romanticism.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
That is exactly the idea that Eidam seeks to refute. He states that
Bach's music was deeper and more profound than anything that came
before or after it. For instance, who else wrote preludes and fugues
in all 24 keys not once but twice? Also, his work on the Musical
Offering and the Art of the Fugue were unique as well. Eidam stated
that the reason the musicians of his era kept going back to his
material was indeed this revolutionary quality.
S
This may be a semantical misunderstanding. I don't (for example) think
that profundity need be "revolutionary". He was using a pre-existing
baroque musical vocabulary. I'm not saying Schoenberg was a better, or
a more profound composer than was Bach; quite the contrary in my
laughably uninformed opinion. But was Bach revolutionary? Did they
riot when the WTC was first played, the way they supposedly did on the
first playing of Le Sacre de Printemps?
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Not all revolutionary music causes riots. Some revolutionary music is
enjoyed even the first time. Hard to imagine anyone walking out of
Prelude de L'apres midi d'une faun (I probably messed that up) by
Debussy, although that was quite different than prior music.
h***@verizon.net
2008-01-05 13:52:29 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 3, 3:08 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
On Jan 3, 2:42 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Well, none of those things change my admiration for him.  I thought
maybe you were going to bring up some personality foibles we hadn't
known about.
As to being forgotten, Mozart and Beethoven were well aware of him,
and of course Bach's sons were very well-known composers.
        My impression from what (decidedly scattered) reading I've done has
given me the impression that he was not so much considered forgotten as
considered "old hat" to the new Classicism.
        I know that Copland considered Bach as pretty much the apotheosis of
Baroque practice, certainly not a revolutionary the way (for example)
Berlioz or Wagner were.  He was described as occupying a similar
position to Brahms a century plus later in his relation to romanticism.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
That is exactly the idea that Eidam seeks to refute.  He states that
Bach's music was deeper and more profound than anything that came
before or after it.  For instance, who else wrote preludes and fugues
in all 24 keys not once but twice?  Also, his work on the Musical
Offering and the Art of the Fugue were unique as well.  Eidam stated
that the reason the musicians of his era kept going back to his
material was indeed this revolutionary quality.
S
        This may be a semantical misunderstanding.  I don't (for example) think
that profundity need be "revolutionary".  He was using a pre-existing
baroque musical vocabulary.  I'm not saying Schoenberg was a better, or
a more profound composer than was Bach; quite the contrary in my
laughably uninformed opinion.  But was Bach revolutionary?  Did they
riot when the WTC was first played, the way they supposedly did on the
first playing of Le Sacre de Printemps?
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
The French probably rioted due to the costumes and caveman like poses
of the corps de ballet, not the strange music.

S
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2008-01-05 14:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
The French probably rioted due to the costumes and caveman like poses
of the corps de ballet, not the strange music.
S
That's not the general impression I'd gotten from reading
contemporaneous accounts. Nijinski may have agreed with you though:

http://www.drury.edu/multinl/story.cfm?ID=2028&NLID=135

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Jez
2008-01-05 15:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
On Jan 3, 3:08 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
On Jan 3, 2:42 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Well, none of those things change my admiration for him. I thought
maybe you were going to bring up some personality foibles we hadn't
known about.
As to being forgotten, Mozart and Beethoven were well aware of him,
and of course Bach's sons were very well-known composers.
My impression from what (decidedly scattered) reading I've done has
given me the impression that he was not so much considered forgotten as
considered "old hat" to the new Classicism.
I know that Copland considered Bach as pretty much the apotheosis of
Baroque practice, certainly not a revolutionary the way (for example)
Berlioz or Wagner were. He was described as occupying a similar
position to Brahms a century plus later in his relation to
romanticism.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
That is exactly the idea that Eidam seeks to refute. He states that
Bach's music was deeper and more profound than anything that came
before or after it. For instance, who else wrote preludes and fugues
in all 24 keys not once but twice? Also, his work on the Musical
Offering and the Art of the Fugue were unique as well. Eidam stated
that the reason the musicians of his era kept going back to his
material was indeed this revolutionary quality.
S
This may be a semantical misunderstanding. I don't (for example) think
that profundity need be "revolutionary". He was using a pre-existing
baroque musical vocabulary. I'm not saying Schoenberg was a better, or
a more profound composer than was Bach; quite the contrary in my
laughably uninformed opinion. But was Bach revolutionary? Did they
riot when the WTC was first played, the way they supposedly did on the
first playing of Le Sacre de Printemps?
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
The French probably rioted due to the costumes and caveman like poses
of the corps de ballet, not the strange music.
S
Nah, rioting is what the French do.
All that wine and garlic, enough to make anyone avoid sitting down for too
long.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.", Albert Einstein
Andrew Schulman
2008-01-03 20:02:43 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 3, 7:57 am, "***@verizon.net" <***@verizon.net>
wrote:
There is an interesting discussion of the Eidam book, pro and con, at:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Books/Book-TrueLife%5BEidam%5D.htm
Post by h***@verizon.net
I found interesting the way Eidam asserts that Bach did not have
difficulty in Leipzig due to his own uncooperativeness, but due to the
active resistance of the town council there.
Christoph Wolff discusses this in great detail in his Bach bio, and
the New Bach Reader has a lot of documents about this area. My
comments below are all obtained from the Wolff bio and the New Bach
Reader,
Post by h***@verizon.net
Also that the St. Matthew Passion and similar works were not well received by the
council or the townspeople due to being "too operatic".
BWV 244, also known as "The Great Passion" at the time, was performed
in Leipzig in 1727, 1729, and 1736, a revised version in the 2nd two,
but not because of "too operatic" criticism.
Post by h***@verizon.net
Another interesting assertion was his statement that Bach was not
"semi-retired" at the end of the time he spent in Leipzig, that he was
actively pushed out by Ernesti, the Thomas School headmaster, and that
during this period, he was truly composing some of his greatest works...
There was an attempt to steamroll Bach's succession by Count von
Bruhl, the Saxon Prime Minister, who wanted the director of his
private capelle, Gottlob Harrer, to be appointed Capell-Director in
Leipzig (he eventually was), but Bach was not pushed out. He was sick
for part of his last year because of the eye operations, very much so
for a quarter of a year after the second operation, but remained
Director until he died. However, because of his poor eyesight he was
not able to work with his previous intensity for some time in the last
year or so. However, he was trying to complete the Art of Fugue, BWV
1080, the earliest version dates to 1742, but his failed eyesight and
weakened disposition severely curtailed his activity. He was not able
to finish the last fugue, and died a few days after dictating a four-
part Chorale: Wenn wir in höchsten Nöten sein to his son-in-law,
Johann Christoph Altnickol, to be used to end the work in the original
edition.
Post by h***@verizon.net
and had secured the position of Royal Composer to the king of Poland
in order to protect himself from being further thwarted in his
activities.
He was appointed Electoral Saxon and Royal Polish Court Composer in
1736, long before he died, but this was in part very useful to him in
dealing with the rancorous dispute he had with Ernesti. The letters
both men wrote to the Town Council re: the dispute at the time, a
power struggle, can be read in full in the New Bach Reader.
Post by h***@verizon.net
Over and over, Eidam dismisses any assertion that Bach was imitating
others in the way he created music such as the Art of the Fugue or the
Goldberg variations
I haven't seen this assertion elsewhere among the Bach writers,
especially Wolff.
Post by h***@verizon.net
and he has no use for the idea that Bach was
forgotten and ignored in the years after his death. He cites many
examples of a select group of great musicians copying and collecting
his scored and disseminating his ideas in their teaching.
He was never completely forgotten, there were indeed musicians,
especially C.P.E Bach and many former students who kept his music
alive, but it took a long time to get him to the forefront. The first
bio, by Forkel, wasn't published until 1802, the Mendelssohn
performance of the St. Matthew Passion - 1829, the Bach-Gesellschaft -
1850.
Post by h***@verizon.net
One area I found heartbreaking was the description of his two cataract
operations, which caused him to be blind for months and then how as
soon as he recovered his sight, he had a stroke and died!
Yes, accurate.

Andrew
h***@verizon.net
2008-01-04 03:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by h***@verizon.net
Another interesting assertion was his statement that Bach was not
"semi-retired" at the end of the time he spent in Leipzig, that he was
actively pushed out by Ernesti, the Thomas School headmaster, and that
during this period, he was truly composing some of his greatest works...
There was an attempt to steamroll Bach's succession by Count von
Bruhl, the Saxon Prime Minister, who wanted the director of his
private capelle, Gottlob Harrer, to be appointed Capell-Director in
Leipzig (he eventually was), but Bach was not pushed out.  He was sick
for part of his last year because of the eye operations, very much so
for a quarter of a year after the second operation, but remained
Director until he died.  However, because of his poor eyesight he was
not able to work with his previous intensity for some time in the last
year or so.  However, he was trying to complete the Art of Fugue, BWV
1080, the earliest version dates to 1742, but his failed eyesight and
weakened disposition severely curtailed his activity.  He was not able
to finish the last fugue, and died a few days after dictating a four-
part Chorale: Wenn wir in höchsten Nöten sein to his son-in-law,
Johann Christoph Altnickol, to be used to end the work in the original
edition.
Post by h***@verizon.net
and had secured the position of Royal Composer to the king of Poland
in order to protect himself from being further thwarted in his
activities.
He was appointed Electoral Saxon and Royal Polish Court Composer in
1736, long before he died, but this was in part very useful to him in
dealing with the rancorous dispute he had with Ernesti.  The letters
both men wrote to the Town Council re: the dispute at the time, a
power struggle, can be read in full in the New Bach Reader.
Hi Andrew and thank you so much for your thorough and thoughtful
answer to my post about the Eidam book. I think I was unclear in my
representation of what the book said in terms of the timing of the
events. Eidam describes what he calls "the prefect war" in which Bach
battled unsuccessfully with Ernesti for control of hiring the prefects
to whom he delegated the countless tasks of running church music at
two or three churches that Bach was responsible for. He mentions C.
Wolff by name in the discussion of the events of 1737 in which he says
Bach went into a "self-ordained quasi-retirement." Eidam claims
instead that though the argument over the prefects, that Bach was
pushed out of his position of control over music in the St. Thomas
school. There is much more detail than I have time to transcribe, but
the year 1737 is the one that Eidam uses as the beginning of the late
period of Bach's career, not the last year with the cataract
operation.

I think you would find the book interesting and I'd love to hear your
opinion of it after reading it.

Seth
Andrew Schulman
2008-01-04 05:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Hi Andrew and thank you so much for your thorough and thoughtful
answer to my post about the Eidam book.
I'm glad you brought up the topic as I'd just finished the 2 books
I've mentioned and I am in a very "Bach" frame of mind!
Post by h***@verizon.net
I think I was unclear in my representation of what the book said in terms of the timing of the
events.  Eidam describes what he calls "the prefect war" in which Bach
battled unsuccessfully with Ernesti for control of hiring the prefects...
According to Wolff, who is a very careful historian, the outcome is
unknown. Spitta assumes that the King, Frederick Augustus, intervened
personally to settle it in favor of Bach, his court composer, and
Wolff provides evidence of this being plausible.

BTW, the complete letters written by Bach and Ernesti to the Town
Council are in the Reader.
Post by h***@verizon.net
 He mentions C. Wolff by name in the discussion of the events of 1737 in which he says
Bach went into a "self-ordained quasi-retirement."  Eidam claims
instead that though the argument over the prefects, that Bach was
pushed out of his position of control over music in the St. Thomas
school.  There is much more detail than I have time to transcribe, but
the year 1737 is the one that Eidam uses as the beginning of the late
period of Bach's career, not the last year with the cataract
operation.
This is simply not true. There is a change in priorities for Bach in
the 1740's but clearly not a "self-ordained quasi-retirement." The
great thing about The New Bach Reader is that it consists entirely of
primary sources of the time; letters, reports, testimonials, etc. And
the Wolff bio is universally acclaimed as the most thorough and up to
date Bach biography. Christoph Wolff's credentials as a Bach scholar
are impeccable. I recommend to you and anyone with a serious interest
in Bach's life and works to read these two books. And there are other
credible Bach bio's, I have read a lot of Spitta, etc.
Post by h***@verizon.net
I think you would find the book interesting and I'd love to hear your
opinion of it after reading it.
Based on what I've seen so far, including the comments at bach-
cantatas.com, I am not interested in reading this book.

Andrew
Arthur Ness
2008-01-09 01:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Hi Andrew and thank you so much for your thorough and thoughtful
answer to my post about the Eidam book.
I'm glad you brought up the topic as I'd just finished the 2 books
I've mentioned and I am in a very "Bach" frame of mind!
<<<SNIP>>>
Post by h***@verizon.net
I think I was unclear in my representation of what the book said in
terms of the timing of the
events. Eidam describes what he calls "the prefect war" in which
Bach
battled unsuccessfully with Ernesti for control of hiring the
prefects...
This is simply not true. There is a change in priorities for Bach in
the 1740's but clearly not a "self-ordained quasi-retirement."
Post by h***@verizon.net
I think you would find the book interesting and I'd love to hear your
opinion of it after reading it.
Based on what I've seen so far, including the comments at bach-
cantatas.com, I am not interested in reading this book.

Andrew

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I am always wary about books that claim to provide "the" Truth, and
share Andrew's feelings about Eiadm's _*The True Life of Johann
Sebastian Bach.*_ I've read several passages that are quoted on the
Internet (it's a Google Book). Many statements
cannot be justified, some are plainly incorrect interpretations, and
most comments seem only to be penned for their sensationalism. One
must remember that Eidam (d. 2007) was by profession a
television script writer and his Bach book stems from the script he
wrote for an East German (DDR) TV program in the mid-1980s. Of
course, because JSB lived within what became the DDR, he was held in
special esteem as a kind of native son by the cultural authorities.
Consequently Eidam, for example, falsely depicts Bach as a
"Revolutionary" and
denigrates the religious symbolism found throughout Bach's music, and
exploits Bach's difficulties with church administrators.

A writer in the journal of the American Guild of Organists began his
review of Eidam's book with a quotation from Descartes (_*Discourse on
Post by h***@verizon.net
The first precept was never to accept
a thing as true until I knew it was as such
without a single doubt.<<

And then closed his review with a pithy quotation from Spinoza's
_Ethics:_
Post by h***@verizon.net
He who would distinguish the true from the false
must have an adequate idea of what is true
and what is false.<<
--
==AJN (Boston, Mass.)

This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Tchaikovsky's "The Seasons," Op. 37b for Piano Solo
Go to my web page:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

For some free scores, go to:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Alcibiades
2008-01-03 20:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
A tough time to live, the 18th century.
Though not nearly as barbaric as the 20th/21st centuries. For
instance:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

&

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_deaths_and_atrocities_of_the_twentieth_century

&

http://www.euthanasia.com/usstat.html

&

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7166932.stm

Moreover, the musical icons of the 18th century are Bach and Mozart.
The icons of our time? Mick Jagger and Britney Spears.

Reject the myth of progress.

On Bach, get these:

http://tinyurl.com/yudxve
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2008-01-03 20:11:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Post by h***@verizon.net
A tough time to live, the 18th century.
Though not nearly as barbaric as the 20th/21st centuries. For
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm
&
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_deaths_and_atrocities_of_the_twentieth_century
&
http://www.euthanasia.com/usstat.html
&
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7166932.stm
Moreover, the musical icons of the 18th century are Bach and Mozart.
The icons of our time? Mick Jagger and Britney Spears.
Reject the myth of progress.
http://tinyurl.com/yudxve
You look like you need a good bleeding.

Theodoric of York, Medieval Barber-surgeon
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Carlos Barrientos
2008-01-04 01:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Alcibiades
Post by h***@verizon.net
A tough time to live, the 18th century.
Though not nearly as barbaric as the 20th/21st centuries. For
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm
&
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_deaths_and_atrocities_of_the_twentieth_century
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Alcibiades
&
http://www.euthanasia.com/usstat.html
&
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7166932.stm
Moreover, the musical icons of the 18th century are Bach and Mozart.
The icons of our time? Mick Jagger and Britney Spears.
Reject the myth of progress.
http://tinyurl.com/yudxve
You look like you need a good bleeding.
Theodoric of York, Medieval Barber-surgeon
This is quite funny!
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512-218-8322)
Tashi
2008-01-04 01:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Post by h***@verizon.net
A tough time to live, the 18th century.
Though not nearly as barbaric as the 20th/21st centuries. For
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm
&
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_deaths_and_atrocities_of_the_twenti...
&
http://www.euthanasia.com/usstat.html
&
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7166932.stm
Moreover, the musical icons of the 18th century are Bach and Mozart.
The icons of our time? Mick Jagger and Britney Spears.
Reject the myth of progress.
http://tinyurl.com/yudxve
Why is it, you can't contribute anything of value to a discussion
other than your tireless, redundant, lame, unimaginative, rants?Are
you retarded?
MT
Alcibiades
2008-01-04 05:04:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Why is it, you can't contribute anything of value to a discussion
other than your tireless, redundant, lame, unimaginative, rants?Are
you retarded?
MT
In fact I contribute great value to nearly every discussion in which I
participate. For example, in Mr. Grand's recent thread concerning
Segovia returning from the dead, I asked the key question. I could
cite many far more significant examples as well. You're simply
unequipped to recognize the highest things, as your depravity has
blinded you to them. It's no coincidence that you and Jennings are
allies. The failure is yours, not mine. You'll discover this in due
time.
Tashi
2008-01-04 05:25:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Post by Tashi
Why is it, you can't contribute anything of value to a discussion
other than your tireless, redundant, lame, unimaginative, rants?Are
you retarded?
MT
In fact I contribute great value to nearly every discussion in which I
participate. For example, in Mr. Grand's recent thread concerning
Segovia returning from the dead, I asked the key question. I could
cite many far more significant examples as well. You're simply
unequipped to recognize the highest things, as your depravity has
blinded you to them. It's no coincidence that you and Jennings are
allies. The failure is yours, not mine. You'll discover this in due
time.
No matter how cleaver you may think you are, your no match for Mr
Jennings! Your like a cat nipping the heals of a noble lion.
Pussy!
MT
Alcibiades
2008-01-04 06:48:44 UTC
Permalink
  No matter how cleaver you may think you are, your no match for Mr
Jennings!  Your like a cat nipping the heals of a noble lion.
Pussy!
MT
So you're in love, eh? I knew it.
Che
2008-01-04 08:41:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
  No matter how cleaver you may think you are, your no match for Mr
Jennings!  Your like a cat nipping the heals of a noble lion.
Pussy!
MT
So you're in love, eh? I knew it.
Jackasson, settle down and get back to doing what you do best:
aggravating people, not trying to insult them, you lack the nack.

(\__/)
(='.'=)This is Che' Petadoggy. Copy and paste Che' into
(")_(")your signature file to help him gain world domination.
h***@verizon.net
2008-01-04 03:45:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Post by h***@verizon.net
A tough time to live, the 18th century.
Though not nearly as barbaric as the 20th/21st centuries. For
Your examples of 20th century atrocities are well selected but I
believe that it is because there were, A) more people in the 20th
century than ever before and B) more efficient ways for them to kill
each other and the result was more killing.
Post by Alcibiades
Moreover, the musical icons of the 18th century are Bach and Mozart.
The icons of our time? Mick Jagger and Britney Spears.
Those are -our- icons of that century-who would the average 18th
century man cite as icons of their time. For me and people of musical
taste, Mick Jagger and Britney Spears are not musical icons to be
admired, more like Itzhak Perlman and Igor Stravinsky, or Aaron
Copland or Elliot Carter.
Post by Alcibiades
Reject the myth of progress.
Come on, even you have to admit there has been significant progress in
the realm of cataract operations!

Seth
Alcibiades
2008-01-04 05:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Come on, even you have to admit there has been significant progress in
the realm of cataract operations!
Yes, there's been only technological progress, and I'd question
whether this is in fact progress at all. At any rate, our moral energy
lags far, far behind our technological progress, and this is a recipe
for hell.
Tommy Grand
2008-01-04 03:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Anyone interested in collaborating on some fan fiction?
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