What goes into becomming an virtuoso?

Post by David Gaines
There are some very young virtuoso level classical performers out there,
some as young as 15 or 16, possibly younger. Since they have not been on
the planet that long, I'm wondering what goes into getting to that level in
such a short time. Are these people playing 12 hours a day from the time
they are 5? Just curious.
Dave

I think John Williams dad only let him play for an hr. or 2 a day while
in school . 12 hr.s is not the answer but I think loving parents who are
musicians may be. This has been on my mind a lot.

I dislike the word " Virtuoso" but I know what your talking about and I
would like to ask a few question that's goes with your question .

J. Williams , Romero kids , Yamashita kids and many others had parents
that played .

How did the parents go about this?
How many virtuoso young players had near virtuoso parents who they still
care for/love ? What's their story

Do you know virtuoso young players stop playing at the age of 20 and hate
their parents? What's their story?

Ed Bridge
www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com

Peter Inglis - TWG

2004-01-05 08:18:40 UTC

NURTURE ......

Nurtured by Love

In this book Suzuki presents the philosophy and principles of his teaching
methods for developing the natural abilities of every child. In my
experience the principles are largely valid for adult education and
self-education as well.

Excerpts

"Talent is no accident of birth. A Newborn child adjusts to his environment
in order to survive, and various abilities are acquired in the process."
etc........... from http://www.migman.com/twg/books/nblove.htm

and

"NATURE"............

The Pianist's Talent by Harold Taylor
"I think many performers have had the feeling... that the music is playing
itself and that they are the agents through which the music passes. ...
Harold Taylor has convincingly shown... that... this feeling is the result
of being in a certain state of muscular co-ordination.."

from http://www.migman.com/twg/books/PT.htm

--
Regards

Peter Inglis - email - ***@migman.com
"Guitar Playing and how it works" - A new terminology and approach to the
guitar based on principles of the Alexander Technique and dance.
Read about it here - http://www.migman.com/twg/2nd-edn/contents.htm

Post by David Gaines
such a short time. Are these people playing 12 hours a day from the time
they are 5? Just curious.
Dave

I think John Williams dad only let him play for an hr. or 2 a day while
in school . 12 hr.s is not the answer but I think loving parents who are
musicians may be. This has been on my mind a lot.
I dislike the word " Virtuoso" but I know what your talking about and I
would like to ask a few question that's goes with your question .
J. Williams , Romero kids , Yamashita kids and many others had parents
that played .
How did the parents go about this?
How many virtuoso young players had near virtuoso parents who they still
care for/love ? What's their story
Do you know virtuoso young players stop playing at the age of 20 and hate
their parents? What's their story?
Ed Bridge
www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com

Scott Daughtrey

2004-01-04 15:13:32 UTC

One thought Dave: the appearance of great progress can be made in a few short
years. I've seen students go from absolute beginner to playing at what would
appear to be a virtuosic level, for the age, in two years. But this is
misleading - it represents only a limited view. The further elements that
ultimately lead to a great musician, true musical maturity, takes many years
regardless of ability.

A small analogy: if you were in average to poor physical condition and decided
to apply yourself to running the mile everyday you'd find that the gains after
a month or two would start to progress very quickly. You might improve your
mile speed from 7 min to 6 min in two weeks, however it may take another month
to get down to 5:45. And it might take another two months to get to 5:30. The
greater the ability, the more work required to break subsequent barriers.
Again if we look at the highly developed, for example the Olympic athletes
competing in the mile, it may take six months to shave a tenth of a second of
time off the time if it's even possible.

When we're younger we often progress a little quicker, but there are many
reasons for this, not the least being that there is usually someone to pick up
the slack (parents often make sure the child has the daily time to practice;
in the case of adults it can be difficult to ensure you have that time every
single day). It aso bears pointing out that children and teens also seem to
have clearer minds. It's easy to find things like bills, commitments and other
responsibilities and even self-doubt or expectations creeping in to our minds
and infecting our practice time. When we are young we often play with a clear
and open mind just because we love to play. This may be the very best way to
learn! And since much work can also be done in the mind when the instrument
isn't in their hands, the freer mind and imagination of youth may also play a
significant role.

Just a few thoughts, not answers.

Scott

Lutemann

2004-01-04 17:12:38 UTC

Post by Scott Daughtrey
You might improve your
mile speed from 7 min to 6 min in two weeks, however it may take another month
to get down to 5:45. And it might take another two months to get to 5:30. The

To offer a better running analogy, I think most people on this list are
wondering why they can't improve their speed from 7 min to 6 min no matter how
long they work on it. I know a very talented concert player who admits that he
cannot play a tremolo and yet I've seen a 60 year old beginner learn it in
couple of months. Is this luck or knowledge? MO would say luck, and I would
say knowledge.
*****************************************************
Kent Murdick
Free Guitar Instruction CD/Video: Go to http://stringdancer.com/
and search for Murdick
http://members.aol.com/lutemann/guitar.html

Edward Bridge

2004-01-04 17:44:42 UTC

Or is it in the DNA? In running it's in your *DNA and hard work .My dad
was a good runner, I'm still running sub 17's for 5 k ( God I wanted to lie
there) and my sons are better then the most of their class.

Which brings me back to the parents of players who are good at a early age
.

Ed Bridge
www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com

* This is a fact

David Kilpatrick

2004-01-04 20:48:15 UTC

Funny that you don't suggest physiology. The shape of my hands lets me do
some things very easily and others with considerable difficulty. I've met
players whose hands could have been purpose built to execute a three-finger
tremolo! Not mine, especially in the length difference between m and a. Not
insuperable, but not worth the effort. Great for clawhammer banjo though.

DK

Lutemann

2004-01-04 23:30:56 UTC

Post by David Kilpatrick
I've met
players whose hands could have been purpose built to execute a three-finger
tremolo! Not mine, especially in the length difference between m and a. Not

This is a possibility. It's too bad I couldn't see your hand. What I need to
do is work on a couple of hundred hands with what I have discovered recently.
*****************************************************
Kent Murdick
Free Guitar Instruction CD/Video: Go to http://stringdancer.com/
and search for Murdick
http://members.aol.com/lutemann/guitar.html

Richard Yates

2004-01-05 15:01:00 UTC

Post by David Kilpatrick
I've met
players whose hands could have been purpose built to execute a three-finger
tremolo! Not mine, especially in the length difference between m and a. Not

This is a possibility. It's too bad I couldn't see your hand. What I need to
do is work on a couple of hundred hands with what I have discovered recently.

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Hands/Hands2.html

Additions to this page are welcome. Send me digital photos or just put your
hand down on a scanner.

Richard Yates
***@yatesguitar.com

David Kilpatrick

2004-01-05 17:31:55 UTC

Post by David Kilpatrick

Post by David Kilpatrick
I've met
players whose hands could have been purpose built to execute a

three-finger

Post by David Kilpatrick
tremolo! Not mine, especially in the length difference between m and a.

Not

Post by Lutemann
This is a possibility. It's too bad I couldn't see your hand. What I

need to

Post by Lutemann
do is work on a couple of hundred hands with what I have discovered

recently.
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Hands/Hands2.html
Additions to this page are welcome. Send me digital photos or just put your
hand down on a scanner.

Fascinating - a couple of hands there are as uneven in length of fingers
as mine, one hand resembles the best fast Irish triplet picker I know
(Tony McManus) in even-length fingers. What is interesting is the
spacing of the fingers, mine naturally divide into two pairs with a big
gap between and I can not hold my hand so i and a touch except at the
first joint - there is almost a finger width gap by the time you get to
the tip. I can do the 'two fingers together in the middle, space on each
side' trick with a lot of effort but not with my fingers flat.

Sending you some scans (my scanner is miles over on the left hand side
of my keboard, so contortions to do this were extreme!)

David

David

Lutemann

2004-01-04 15:25:57 UTC

Post by David Gaines
Since they have not been on
the planet that long, I'm wondering what goes into getting to that level in
such a short time. Are these people playing 12 hours a day from the time
they are 5? Just curious.

Starting young without bad habits and dedication are the main things. Talent is
also a big one, but I think we are going to start seeing many people with
average talent master the repertoire and not spend 20 years doing it. Five
hours a day is too long for a human to sustain good practice habits IMO.
Building to an efficient three hours a day is plenty. People critcize me on
RMCG for always talking about efficiency, but it is the absolute key to
success. Your chances of success on the guitar without a knowledgable
efficiency guide (teacher) are about the same as winning the lottery. But as MO
would say, look at all the people who win the lottery who never studied
probability.
*****************************************************
Kent Murdick
Free Guitar Instruction CD/Video: Go to http://stringdancer.com/
and search for Murdick
http://members.aol.com/lutemann/guitar.html

Childbloom

2004-01-04 18:36:29 UTC

Whenenever I have a chance to encounter concert level players, I ask them about
their childhood training. I have spoken with, A. Holzman, M. Abril, S. Assad,
A. Romero, R. Dyens, various LAGQ performers, and many other high-level and
lesser known players about this topic. I have heard others speak about this
topic and share first hand stories of other famous players of which they had
knowlege. Most seem to enjoy thinking back into their early years. The common
thread of all of these professionals is unambiguous parental support and
guidance. For example, one famous player's dad motivated his son with strict
practice regimen and career aspirations of world travel. Another player's
parents were artists and sought qualified teachers. One father even moved the
entire family to a different city so that his pre-teen children could have
better teaching. One dad planned his son's entire career - from his first
teachers, recitals, arrangers and record companies - at age 9 - it came to
pass. There are many stories (of which I have no first hand knowledge) of
players such as Bream, Williams, Yepes, and even the historical figures of
Guliani, Sor that share this common environment. (This gives me a reason to
corner some of the older members of the international guitar community who may
spill some of thes stories over a few beers at the next festival.)

Over the last several decades, I have taught hundreds of young people. If those
student continue playing though the teenage years, it is the rule and not the
exception that they develop significant physical technique with a few hours a
week of practice. However I have seen precious few continue their studies into
the college years and have career aspirations. The reason seems to be that
parents begin to withdraw their support from the musical activity as the
prospect of their child becoming a professional musician becomes more
realistic. Only the most outstanding will come to the fore and receive
continual parental support. This is not an unusual phenomenon - ask the Dean of
Yale School of Music about that. Since the guitar has traditionally been a solo
instrument, a competent but less-than-virtuosic player has little chance of a
career.

I would be curious to know of a player or composer of high caliber who did not
have active parental involvement supporting their interest as a youth. My bet
is that it doesn't exist. Are there any outstanding concert artists of any
instrument who were orphans?

Kevin Taylor
The Childbloom Co.
www.childbloom.com

<< There are some very young virtuoso level classical performers out there,
some as young as 15 or 16, possibly younger. Since they have not been on
the planet that long, I'm wondering what goes into getting to that level in
such a short time. Are these people playing 12 hours a day from the time
they are 5? Just curious. >>

Stanley Yates

2004-01-04 18:53:34 UTC

Post by Childbloom
I would be curious to know of a player or composer of high caliber who did not
have active parental involvement supporting their interest as a youth. My bet
is that it doesn't exist. Are there any outstanding concert artists of any
instrument who were orphans?

Yes.

Himmelhoch

2004-01-04 19:48:20 UTC

I keep thinking of my childhood reading biographies of composers and the story
of G. F. Handel whose parents forbace his playing of music and he had to study
in the attic at night in secret, thus ruining his eyes!

SH

Richard F. Sayage

2004-01-04 20:59:18 UTC

Post by Childbloom
I would be curious to know of a player or composer of high caliber who

did

not

Post by Childbloom
have active parental involvement supporting their interest as a youth.

bet

Post by Childbloom
is that it doesn't exist. Are there any outstanding concert artists of any
instrument who were orphans?

Yes.

Hey, talk about brevity. Not much room for misinterpretation, no? I should
take a lesson in this...it's either that or go back to taking medications
again.

--
Richard F. Sayage
www.savageclassical.com

Remove ZEROSPAM to reply...thx

http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html

Childbloom

2004-01-05 00:30:53 UTC

<< Are there any outstanding concert artists of any

Post by Childbloom
instrument who were orphans?

Yes. >>

Can you name some names?

Kevin

Stanley Yates

2004-01-05 03:34:29 UTC

Post by Childbloom
<< Are there any outstanding concert artists of any

Post by Childbloom
instrument who were orphans?

Yes. >>
Can you name some names?
Kevin

I can, but I won't.

choro-nik

2004-01-05 04:28:51 UTC

Post by Childbloom
<< Are there any outstanding concert artists of any

Post by Childbloom
instrument who were orphans?

Yes. >>
Can you name some names?
Kevin

I can, but I won't.

Surely this info is immaterial. The question should be whether the virtuosi
involved grew up in a supportive atmosphere. Whether those giving support
were the actual parents or not is quite immaterial. Moral support is of
paramount importance be it from parents, teachers, or friends. Growing up in
a musical environment is also of tremendous importance.

--
choro-nik
********

Lutemann

2004-01-05 14:45:33 UTC

Post by choro-nik
The question should be whether the virtuosi
involved grew up in a supportive atmosphere. Whether those giving support
were the actual parents or not is quite immaterial. Moral support is of

This is true for any endeavor. Because of societal changes, i.e. single parent
families or both parents working, there is less parental support out there than
there used to be. I taught public high school for one year and would estimate
that 50% of the kids were respectful and worked consistently, but the other
half did not. This is a disaster for the educational environment. When you
hear that crap about bad teachers or bad schools, don't believe it. The
problem with schools is ALWAYS bad parents.
*****************************************************
Kent Murdick
Free Guitar Instruction CD/Video: Go to http://stringdancer.com/
and search for Murdick
http://members.aol.com/lutemann/guitar.html

William Jennings

2004-01-05 04:59:31 UTC

Post by Childbloom
<< Are there any outstanding concert artists of any

Post by Childbloom
instrument who were orphans?

Yes. >>
Can you name some names?
Kevin

I can, but I won't.

I will; Jose Asuncion Flores. J.S. Bach was orphaned at 9 years of age
and raised by his brother Johann Christoph. Dan Maraya Jos was orphaned
as an infant, lester Brown, Nat "King" Cole, Peter Duchin, Ella
Fitzgerald, Leslie Lemke, American musical savant and Luis Armstrong.
Interestingly, both Jose Flores and Armstrong were in reform school by
12 years of age.

Che'

Edward Bridge

2004-01-05 14:13:54 UTC

Post by William Jennings

Post by Childbloom
<< Are there any outstanding concert artists of any

Post by Childbloom
instrument who were orphans?

Yes. >>
Can you name some names?
Kevin

I can, but I won't.

Babe Ruth :>)

Ed

William Jennings

2004-01-05 14:45:44 UTC

Post by William Jennings

Post by Childbloom
<< Are there any outstanding concert artists of any

Post by Childbloom
instrument who were orphans?

Yes. >>
Can you name some names?
Kevin

I can, but I won't.

Armstrong.

Post by William Jennings
Interestingly, both Jose Flores and Armstrong were in reform school by
12 years of age.
Che'

Babe Ruth :>)
Ed

I could have named more but what the fuck does a candy bar have to do
with things. :-) I ought to have mentioned
Wille Nelson.... he plays a classical guitar does he not?

Che'

Lutemann

2004-01-05 14:45:33 UTC

Post by William Jennings
American musical savant and Luis Armstrong.

That's a good one. His mother was a prostitute and Sachamo used to deliver
coal to the whore houses in New Orleans. But a Russian Jewish family took him
in at one point and nurtured his talent.
*****************************************************
Kent Murdick
Free Guitar Instruction CD/Video: Go to http://stringdancer.com/
and search for Murdick
http://members.aol.com/lutemann/guitar.html

William Jennings

2004-01-05 15:40:04 UTC

Post by William Jennings
American musical savant and Luis Armstrong.

That's a good one. His mother was a prostitute and Sachamo used to deliver
coal to the whore houses in New Orleans. But a Russian Jewish family took him
in at one point and nurtured his talent.

There's a good net bio on Armstrong at:
http://www.jiveconnection.co.uk/Artists/larmstrong.htm
Interestingly, I play an arrangement of "What A Wonderful World." In
South America a few guitarists I knew tried to learn
this and "Ain't No More Cane On The Brazos" which they could never quite
manage.... that rhythm thing you know. :-)

Leslie Lemke is the musical savant. Imo, Jose Flores may be the best
example. He was arrested for stealing bread in the market and jailed at
12. He joined the police band and learned the basics of harmony in some
three months from a book.

Che

P.S. Your trill fingering is fucked up.

Matanya Ophee

2004-01-05 03:51:43 UTC

Post by Childbloom
<< Are there any outstanding concert artists of any

Post by Childbloom
instrument who were orphans?

Yes. >>
Can you name some names?

Orphanhood in itself is not necessarily a handicap, if the kid had
supportive foster parents. Richard Pick was a notable virtuoso in his
youth, at the wrong time and in the wrong place. Stepan Rak is another
orphan who comes to mind and I am sure there were as many orphans
among accomplished musicians as there were among accomplished
dentists, lawyers, scientists, brain surgeons and airline pilots...

The circumstances of a childhood are not all that important here as
the economic situation of the household in which a child grows up.
There is no question that the great majority of concert performers
today are those who came from wealthy backgrounds with parents,
natural or foster, who could finance the making of a career.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html

choro-nik

2004-01-05 04:32:22 UTC

Post by Matanya Ophee

Post by Childbloom
<< Are there any outstanding concert artists of any

Post by Childbloom
instrument who were orphans?

Yes. >>
Can you name some names?

Orphanhood in itself is not necessarily a handicap, if the kid had
supportive foster parents. Richard Pick was a notable virtuoso in his
youth, at the wrong time and in the wrong place. Stepan Rak is another
orphan who comes to mind and I am sure there were as many orphans
among accomplished musicians as there were among accomplished
dentists, lawyers, scientists, brain surgeons and airline pilots...
The circumstances of a childhood are not all that important here as
the economic situation of the household in which a child grows up.
There is no question that the great majority of concert performers
today are those who came from wealthy backgrounds with parents,
natural or foster, who could finance the making of a career.

Matanya, you've hit the nail on the head.
--
choro-nik
********

Post by Matanya Ophee
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html

Mike P.

2004-01-05 19:25:37 UTC

Post by Childbloom
However I have seen precious few continue their studies into
the college years and have career aspirations. The reason seems to be that
parents begin to withdraw their support from the musical activity as the
prospect of their child becoming a professional musician becomes more
realistic.

Interesting thoughts, Kevin. Thanks.

My wife teaches music, she's had a few kids from a young age up til
they leave for the Ivies or etc. Of the couple kids I'm thinking of,
while I think they're imbued with a deep love and respect for music I
don't think any of them have gone on to "pursue professional musical
careers" so to speak. I'm now curious if my wife would say this is due
to parental steering or to the kid deciding they'd rather major in
economics or pottery or etc. (And of course, just because the kid
thinks they want an MBA at 17 doesn't mean they won't be making music
professionally 10 years later.)

At this point in the thread, I don't think this question really got
answered (except, now that I think about it, maybe by Matanya's
comment about households with money). There are a bunch of replies
about the orphanhood angle, but what about kids who weren't orphans
and had decent, even great childhoods but didn't have a "musical"
environment or "musical" parents? I'm sure there must be examples of
now-famous musicians (if not virtuosi) who sprang from extreme
normalness...?

Mike P.

Matanya Ophee

2004-01-05 19:33:30 UTC

Post by Mike P.
I'm sure there must be examples of
now-famous musicians (if not virtuosi) who sprang from extreme
normalness...?

Anton Bruckner.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS

2004-01-05 19:36:21 UTC

Post by Mike P.

Interesting thoughts, Kevin. Thanks.
My wife teaches music, she's had a few kids from a young age up til
they leave for the Ivies or etc. Of the couple kids I'm thinking of,
while I think they're imbued with a deep love and respect for music I
don't think any of them have gone on to "pursue professional musical
careers" so to speak. I'm now curious if my wife would say this is due
to parental steering or to the kid deciding they'd rather major in
economics or pottery or etc. (And of course, just because the kid
thinks they want an MBA at 17 doesn't mean they won't be making music
professionally 10 years later.)

Well, Miles Davis' father was a (gasp!) DENTIST!!

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com

Edward Bridge

2004-01-05 21:22:21 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Well, Miles Davis' father was a (gasp!) DENTIST!!

Now don't you think there's a reason why Miles had good CHOPS :>)

Ed Bridge
www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS

2004-01-05 22:25:38 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Well, Miles Davis' father was a (gasp!) DENTIST!!

Now don't you think there's a reason why Miles had good CHOPS :>)
Ed Bridge
www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com

(rim shot)

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com

Mike P.

2004-01-06 00:54:16 UTC

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Well, Miles Davis' father was a (gasp!) DENTIST!!

Dude! That bodes well. Buena suerte.

Mike P.

Colin Davin

2004-01-05 22:24:41 UTC

Post by Childbloom
The common
thread of all of these professionals is unambiguous parental support and
guidance. For example, one famous player's dad motivated his son with strict
practice regimen and career aspirations of world travel. Another player's
parents were artists and sought qualified teachers. One father even moved the
entire family to a different city so that his pre-teen children could have
better teaching. One dad planned his son's entire career - from his first
teachers, recitals, arrangers and record companies - at age 9 - it came to
pass.

I agree that parental support is absolutely key...i'm a 16-year old
guitarist and the support of my parents has been and i'm sure will
continue to be invaluable. But it can go too far sometimes. I've seen
far too many amazing young musicians have serious emotional problems
that could be not just career damaging, but life damaging, because of
overwhelming pressure to practice a lot, etc. from parents. The
parent you mentioned who planned out his 9-year-old's entire
career...ok, let's say the kid doesn't meet one of these expectations,
what's his father's response going to be, and how would the young
musician react to that. Sometimes, parents have to be careful -
especially in the rebellious teenage years - of going too far and
making their child/children disillusioned with practicing and
performing.

Peace,
Colin

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS

2004-01-06 00:40:39 UTC

Post by Colin Davin
I agree that parental support is absolutely key...i'm a 16-year old
guitarist and the support of my parents has been and i'm sure will
continue to be invaluable. But it can go too far sometimes. I've seen
far too many amazing young musicians have serious emotional problems
that could be not just career damaging, but life damaging, because of
overwhelming pressure to practice a lot, etc. from parents. The
parent you mentioned who planned out his 9-year-old's entire
career...ok, let's say the kid doesn't meet one of these expectations,
what's his father's response going to be, and how would the young
musician react to that. Sometimes, parents have to be careful -
especially in the rebellious teenage years - of going too far and
making their child/children disillusioned with practicing and
performing.
Peace,
Colin

Colin--

What are you doing on line again? Get into your room and work on your scales!

Thank you.
Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com

Lutemann

2004-01-06 01:11:11 UTC

Post by Colin Davin
Sometimes, parents have to be careful -
especially in the rebellious teenage years - of going too far and
making their child/children disillusioned with practicing and
performing.

Albeniz comes to mind here.

I met a 10 year old Organ vituoso who was touring in the states. This kid
could play major extended works with no problem. He spoke English well an we
talked a bit. His parents had shaped their lives around him. He was a very
well rounded boy and was currently studying the saxaphone.
*****************************************************
Kent Murdick
Free Guitar Instruction CD/Video: Go to http://stringdancer.com/
and search for Murdick
http://members.aol.com/lutemann/guitar.html

Childbloom

2004-01-06 02:56:15 UTC

<< But it can go too far sometimes. I've seen
far too many amazing young musicians have serious emotional problems
that could be not just career damaging, but life damaging, because of
overwhelming pressure to practice a lot, etc. from parents. The
parent you mentioned who planned out his 9-year-old's entire
career...ok, let's say the kid doesn't meet one of these expectations,
what's his father's response going to be, and how would the young
musician react to that. Sometimes, parents have to be careful -
especially in the rebellious teenage years - of going too far and
making their child/children disillusioned with practicing and
performing. >>

You are correct. The guitarist in that story had an early brilliant career and
then gave it up to fish and pursue more meaningful things.

Kevin

William Jennings

2004-01-06 05:06:17 UTC

Post by Childbloom
The guitarist in that story had an early brilliant career and
then gave it up to fish and pursue more meaningful things.

The fishermen, Simon Peter boat owner, his brother Andrew, the sons of
Zebedee, James and John did the same damned thing in another story.
John had an early brilliant carrer in prison.... what a slacker!

Remarkable coincidence or conspiracy?

Che'

GIMME

2004-01-04 22:25:02 UTC

Common traits among young virtuosos ...

1. Encouraged to perform for friends and for others,
2. Provided guidence by one or two relatives,
3. Quality instruction - so it is always what to work on in order to
maintain interest and improve,
4. Encouraged to listen to lots and lots of music,
5. Significant investment in instruction,
6. Lots of feedback from many sources

Don

2004-01-05 01:58:55 UTC

My virtuoso story.

I had a student in the 70's who came to me at the beginning of his sophomore
year in college. He was close to being a drop out type kid with guitar
knowledge of only first position folk chords. So we go through Fall,
Spring, Summer, and then Fall, Junior year, second semester. By then he
had gone through much of the repertoire, was playing Bach suites and started
working on stuff like Britten's Nocturnal. By now he had given numerous
recitals on campus and off, memorizing some really tough stuff. I had never
seen anything like it. He found his passion and all his grades went up as
well. He also got into jazz guitar and bought a Gibson ES175 to learn on.
Unbeknownst to me that summer he drove to UCLA to audition for a spot at
that school. He was working up to being a virtuoso but was not there yet.
Those intelligent wonderful people at UCLA, whoever they were, instead of
being constructively critical torn the kid down because he wasn't sitting
correctly or his hand wasn't in the correct placement (like Segovia's no
doubt). What kind of people these were to bring that kid down. I found out
about it in the Fall. He still did well that last year but stopped dreaming
of playing the guitar. He kind of walked through the last year, still doing
well but the passion gone, and after graduating got into the condo selling
business and never played again.

Don Gudac

Brian Fletcher

2004-01-05 10:09:33 UTC

This is a very interesting discussion which all seems to lead to the point,
that to be a virtuoso, you must start your studies as a child.
Does anyone know of anyone, who started to study as an adult and advanced to
such a level?

Or does such an animal, not exist?

David Gaines

2004-01-05 14:58:52 UTC

I'm not sure about such an animal existing in the guitar world, but I've
heard of pianist starting at 60 or 70 getting to concert performance level.
In the sports world I know that there are a few golfers that started as
adults (early to mid 20's) and made it to the PGA tour. Also, there is a
guy on the senior tour that shot his first 69 after only playing a year, so
he must have been 50 or older when he started. I guess it would be possible
to teach an old dog new tricks :) .

Dave

Post by Brian Fletcher
This is a very interesting discussion which all seems to lead to the point,
that to be a virtuoso, you must start your studies as a child.
Does anyone know of anyone, who started to study as an adult and advanced to
such a level?
Or does such an animal, not exist?

John Sloan

2004-01-05 15:42:12 UTC

Post by David Gaines
In the sports world I know that there are a few golfers that started as
adults (early to mid 20's) and made it to the PGA tour.

Calvin Peete, for one.

John Sloan

Stanley Yates

2004-01-05 15:16:09 UTC

Stepan Rak for one.

Greg M. Silverman

2004-01-05 16:54:40 UTC

Post by Brian Fletcher

Post by Brian Fletcher
This is a very interesting discussion which all seems to lead to the

point,

Post by Brian Fletcher
that to be a virtuoso, you must start your studies as a child.
Does anyone know of anyone, who started to study as an adult and advanced

Post by Brian Fletcher
such a level?
Or does such an animal, not exist?

Stepan Rak for one.

Frank Zappa for two (although he played percussion long before switching
to guitar at age 19).

gms--

Edward Bridge

2004-01-05 21:29:38 UTC

Post by Greg M. Silverman
Frank Zappa for two (although he played percussion long before switching
to guitar at age 19).

Not fair, I was going say to Frank Zappa but the post said "virtuoso" .
Ed "I want my T#$#$S and Beer" Bridge

Greg M. Silverman

2004-01-05 22:19:04 UTC

Post by Greg M. Silverman
Frank Zappa for two (although he played percussion long before switching
to guitar at age 19).

Not fair, I was going say to Frank Zappa but the post said "virtuoso" .

Oops, too late! Was Frank a virtuosic guitarist? (improviser? composer?)

Post by Edward Bridge
Ed "I want my T#$#$S and Beer" Bridge

Were the cans this tall?

gms--

Edward Bridge

2004-01-05 23:50:27 UTC

Post by Greg M. Silverman
Were the cans this tall?
gms--

Don't get me started :>) " you G.D. S. O. A .W. :>) that's what I learn
writing for " . .
Frank was a huge figure in my life. He once said " if there's enough
coffee for me and food kids and I'm doing what I want then I'm successful
" Guess What . .Ed (that's me) Bridge is successful.

Thank you.

Peace,

Ed Bridge
www.bridgekaldromusic.com

Greg M. Silverman

2004-01-06 01:38:27 UTC

Post by Greg M. Silverman
Were the cans this tall?
gms--

Did you _know_ Frank when he was the resident artist with the Mothers at the
Garrett Theater in the Village or something? That would've been wild to see
them there! :-)

He had drive and a monomaniacal view wrt making music. It was his life and
neither lack of food nor sleep would stop him from making it or completing an
idea within the "big note."

gms--

William Jennings

2004-01-06 01:48:32 UTC

Post by Edward Bridge
Frank was a huge figure in my life. He once said " if there's enough
coffee for me and food kids and I'm doing what I want then I'm

successful

Post by Edward Bridge
" Guess What . .Ed (that's me) Bridge is successful.
Thank you.
Peace,
Ed Bridge

What about the dog? Do you feed the dog? Hey, I'm with you there
hombre. Time is all we have and life's for living unless
you're a tea-sipping sociologist with a slide rule working on trilling
tremolos.

Yes, I believe there are certain laws that show a correlation between
the amount of hype/crap/bullshit about tremolo's and trills multiplied
by the responces and opinions about the why's and how's to create it,
that it can be demonstrated in an inverse proportion to the actual
quality of the necessary information to do the thing and the amount of
total bullshit contained within....

Yep, I confused myself, what the Hell it sounded good. If some think
(for months) there's a secret message contained within. That's a
definite if.

Let me ask this one question Mr. Bridges, in what position is the toilet
seat in your house, up or down?

Che' Ph.D

P.S. Trills in exetreme clairty and articulation depend on a wee bit
more than a rigorous sequential application of the figures.
Like most things they require a little artfulness in the exact manner of
attack. Like the shape of the nails there is another dimension and they
are played concurently... almost. A well played trill is almost a vocal
utterance, an imitation of an utterance. That's what separatus the goats
from the sheep. If you can realize/image the utterance you can
articulate the trill fittingly. As per my old harpsichord teacher.

Edward Bridge

2004-01-06 04:04:04 UTC

Post by Edward Bridge
Frank was a huge figure in my life. He once said " if there's enough
coffee for me and food kids and I'm doing what I want then I'm

successful

Post by Edward Bridge
" Guess What . .Ed (that's me) Bridge is successful.
Thank you.
Peace,
Ed Bridge

I don't know, with fours kids and 90 students coming in each week , I just
piss while doing the laundry in the basement , right in the sink. Laundry
is my job and the wife folds and puts away.

Post by Edward Bridge
Che' Ph.D
P.S. Trills in exetreme clairty and articulation depend on a wee bit
more than a rigorous sequential application of the figures.
Like most things they require a little artfulness in the exact manner of
attack. Like the shape of the nails there is another dimension and they
are played concurently... almost. A well played trill is almost a vocal
utterance, an imitation of an utterance. That's what separatus the goats
from the sheep. If you can realize/image the utterance you can
articulate the trill fittingly. As per my old harpsichord teacher.

Kirsti and I are doing taxes with a Chardonnay by Bourgogne.. but I think
I may understand you , so what your saying is "make it sing and forget about
Performance practice" . .I should let the cat out now and saying .. I'm
playing trills now just like how I learned them . .from Jimi. .Yes , I got
into my long nails and played trills like *K.Yamashita did in the early
90's but now I'm back and have been for years to the "don't mean a thing if
it can't sing " blues trills .

Still I should learn about more about Baroque guitar and all that with the
trills and understand better what I don't understand .
Thank you.

Peace,

Ed Bridge
www.bridgekaldromusic.com

*I still like to hear K.Yamashita do it just not from me.

Childbloom

2004-01-06 03:01:00 UTC

<< > Does anyone know of anyone, who started to study as an adult and advanced
to

Post by Brian Fletcher
such a level?
Or does such an animal, not exist? >>

Did not Gighlia begin at a later age? M. Abril did not start guitar seriously
until imprisoned at 19. He was a violinist beforehand.

KT

Pirate3110s

2004-01-10 03:33:08 UTC

I was told that a Stephen Robinson started late as in when he was 22. Has
anyone else heard this?

Lutemann

2004-01-05 13:32:36 UTC

Post by Don
He kind of walked through the last year, still doing
well but the passion gone, and after graduating got into the condo selling
business and never played again.

Smart move. The best that a very fine guitarist can hope to do is make minimum
wage when you add up all the time spent practicing, teaching and playing. I've
found over the years that when students realize what they need to do in order
to really make it, they decide to change careers. One of my best students from
the old days turned to voice and is doing very well. Another has a reoccuring
role on "As the World Turns" Go figure.
*****************************************************
Kent Murdick
Free Guitar Instruction CD/Video: Go to http://stringdancer.com/
and search for Murdick
http://members.aol.com/lutemann/guitar.html

Colin Davin

2004-01-05 22:28:11 UTC

Post by Don
My virtuoso story.
I had a student in the 70's who came to me at the beginning of his sophomore
year in college. He was close to being a drop out type kid with guitar
knowledge of only first position folk chords. So we go through Fall,
Spring, Summer, and then Fall, Junior year, second semester. By then he
had gone through much of the repertoire, was playing Bach suites and started
working on stuff like Britten's Nocturnal. By now he had given numerous
recitals on campus and off, memorizing some really tough stuff. I had never
seen anything like it. He found his passion and all his grades went up as
well. He also got into jazz guitar and bought a Gibson ES175 to learn on.
Unbeknownst to me that summer he drove to UCLA to audition for a spot at
that school. He was working up to being a virtuoso but was not there yet.
Those intelligent wonderful people at UCLA, whoever they were, instead of
being constructively critical torn the kid down because he wasn't sitting
correctly or his hand wasn't in the correct placement (like Segovia's no
doubt). What kind of people these were to bring that kid down. I found out
about it in the Fall. He still did well that last year but stopped dreaming
of playing the guitar. He kind of walked through the last year, still doing
well but the passion gone, and after graduating got into the condo selling
business and never played again.
Don Gudac

Well, it sounds to me like someone told this student that there were
serious issues with his technique that needed to be reformed and he
couldn't handle the criticism. I had to go through that, and I'm
still going through that, and sometimes ya just gotta suck it up and
do what you must. A few years back, I didn't decide to sell condos
because my teacher pointed out that my right hand technique
essentially sucked...I worked on it, and now it's considerably better.
As a student, accepting criticism is a must, and nobody can become a
virtuoso without doing so from those more learned than he.

Peace,
Colin

Lutemann

2004-01-06 01:11:11 UTC

Post by Colin Davin
Well, it sounds to me like someone told this student that there were
serious issues with his technique that needed to be reformed and he
couldn't handle the criticism.

It's how you crticize that's important. The teacher probably handled the
student badly. You don't just tell someone they have to redo their technique.
As a teacher, you must influence the student come to this decision on his own.

Post by Colin Davin
I had to go through that, and I'm
still going through that, and sometimes ya just gotta suck it up and
do what you must. A few years back, I didn't decide to sell condos
because my teacher pointed out that my right hand technique
essentially sucked...

You teacher in all probability was an ignorant asshole. I say in all probablity
becasue the chances are, your right hand was his fault.
*****************************************************
Kent Murdick
Free Guitar Instruction CD/Video: Go to http://stringdancer.com/
and search for Murdick
http://members.aol.com/lutemann/guitar.html

Colin Davin

2004-01-07 02:59:12 UTC

Post by Lutemann
It's how you crticize that's important. The teacher probably handled the
student badly. You don't just tell someone they have to redo their technique.
As a teacher, you must influence the student come to this decision on his own.

I agree...partially...I don't think being blunt and rude is the way to
go, but sometimes a student won't figure out these issues on their
own...sometimes you just gotta lay it down.

Post by Lutemann
You teacher in all probability was an ignorant asshole. I say in all probablity
becasue the chances are, your right hand was his fault.

Watch what you say...ok, he didn't actually say "it sucked", he told
me what was wrong in far more constructive ways. And my right hand
had never been worked on before my current teacher, and it among the
first things we looked at. Above all, be careful who you call an
asshole until you know who my teacher even is - don't wanna get
yourself in trouble...

Hans Andersson

2004-01-05 02:07:02 UTC

Your post seems to suggest that if I had exactly the same practice
habits as Manuel Barrueco had as a student, then I would have the same
results. That is simply not correct.

Talent is a multifaceted quality which I believe combines innate
(inborn) abilities with a readiness to be aware of the mechanisms of
guitar-playing and alot of intangibles.

But, if I weren;t as good as Manuel (which I am not nor ever will be),
would my own contributions as a musician (assuming I were one) be
unimportant? Each person brings a unique message to the music, and
assuming they have studied honestly, the message is worth hearing.

Young virtuosos often are fabulously able technically but I personally
cannot think of many whose technique mattered to me much after a 3rd
hearing. Barrueco's strength is not in his fabulous technique but in
his depth of study of the music. Together they result in a career such
s he enjoys. I would rather hear a musically inspired player with
so-so technique than a viruoso with so-so muscial ability. Just me.

hans

TheLittlestHun

2004-01-05 17:15:31 UTC

Hiya David,
What a wonderful question you provided us. There is little doubt that
there are innate qualities related to how each individual's brain works.
Environmental factors such as those posited by our other list members
also are important and case-specific.
I've seen savants, some of whom were the beneficiaries of a positive
environment and others less fortunate, perform feats that are
inexplicable. I've seen a pianist, for instance, who can repeat a piece
after having hear it only once in his life. Yet this same person has
not had andy formal training at the piano. He has difficulty, however,
doing a number of daily tasks that even an average child can complete
without supervision on difficulty.
Certain types of "skills", for want of a better term, may be more
structurally affined to "mechanistic" functions of the brain than
others. For instance, math is very much related to music. There are
child math prodigies, I'm sure you know, who can teach math at the
college level. But, contrariwise, there may be other kinds of skills
that no matter how equipped mechanically the brain may be, nothing short
of experiential reasoning will suffice.
Here, let me posit a thought. No child prodigy (virtuoso, so to speak),
will every write "the great American novel". You'll notice that in
certain areas, those creative areas dependent upon "life experience",
there really aren't prodigies. There may well be limits to what the
brain can do as an organ mechanistically. In certain areas, the genius
of the brain must of necessity be embellished or augmented, if you will,
by the commonplace, which for most of us is called living and experiencing.
I may be out in left field. I'm very likely out of the ball park.
But there is no doubt that "equality" is a myth when it comes to musical
performance. All men and women are not, for whatever reason, created
equally. We can, nonetheless, enjoy music equally--whether performing
or using our sensory perceptions simply to experience.
Cheers,
Gene, duh man.

TheLittlestHun

2004-01-05 17:17:59 UTC

Hiya David,
What a wonderful question you provided us. There is little doubt that
there are innate qualities related to how each individual's brain works.
Environmental factors such as those posited by our other list members
also are important and case-specific.
I've seen savants, some of whom were the beneficiaries of a positive
environment and others less fortunate, perform feats that are
inexplicable. I've seen a pianist, for instance, who can repeat a piece
after having heard it only once in his life. Yet this same person has
not had any formal training at the piano. He has difficulty, however,
doing a number of daily tasks that even an average child can complete
without supervision or difficulty.
Certain types of "skills", for want of a better term, may be more
structurally affined to "mechanistic" functions of the brain than
others. For instance, math is very much related to music. There are
child math prodigies, I'm sure you know, who can teach math at the
college level. But, contrariwise, there may be other kinds of skills
that no matter how equipped mechanically the brain may be, nothing short
of experiential reasoning will suffice.
Here, let me posit a thought. No child prodigy (virtuoso, so to speak),
will every write "the great American novel". You'll notice that in
certain areas, those creative areas dependent upon "life experience",
there really aren't prodigies. There may well be limits to what the
brain can do as an organ mechanistically. In certain areas, the genius
of the brain must of necessity be embellished or augmented, if you will,
by the commonplace, which for most of us is called living and experiencing.
I may be out in left field. I'm very likely out of the ball park.
But there is no doubt that "equality" is a myth when it comes to musical
performance. All men and women are not, for whatever reason, created
equally. We can, nonetheless, enjoy music equally--whether performing
or using our sensory perceptions simply to experience.
Cheers,
Gene, duh man.

TheLittlestHun

2004-01-05 17:20:35 UTC