Discussion:
Sor = Mozart?
(too old to reply)
Faustus Infinitus
2007-08-12 08:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Assertion(s):

Sor's musical genius was at least equal to Mozart's, and Sor realized
this genius in his music.

Agreed?
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-08-12 13:17:45 UTC
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Post by Faustus Infinitus
Sor's musical genius was at least equal to Mozart's, and Sor realized
this genius in his music.
Agreed?
No. daveA
--
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solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
John Oster
2007-08-12 16:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Faustus Infinitus
Sor's musical genius was at least equal to Mozart's, and Sor realized
this genius in his music.
Agreed?
No. daveA
Not even close.
e***@cox.net
2007-08-12 14:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faustus Infinitus
Sor's musical genius was at least equal to Mozart's, and Sor realized
this genius in his music.
Agreed?
I agree....

....with David

No
Mr Squiddy
2007-08-12 14:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faustus Infinitus
Sor's musical genius was at least equal to Mozart's, and Sor realized
this genius in his music.
Agreed?
Surely...

Salieri = Mozart?
Charlie
2007-08-12 15:02:40 UTC
Permalink
Define 'musical genius'. This term is laid out in your post as if there is
some sort of implicit concensus on this term's meaning. I'm not sure there
is. The real discussion might be, "What is musical genius?" Define the
term and you will have your answer.

Charlie
Post by Faustus Infinitus
Sor's musical genius was at least equal to Mozart's, and Sor realized
this genius in his music.
Agreed?
chuck hulihan
2007-08-12 19:53:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faustus Infinitus
Sor's musical genius was at least equal to Mozart's, and Sor realized
this genius in his music.
Agreed?
More thoughtful responses may be generated if the question was asked
in this frame "If Mozart wrote for the guitar, would Sor's musical
genius be at least equal to Mozart's..."

Im sure most folks instantly get caught up in knowing only Sor's
guitar music, and instantly draw failed comparisons to Mozart's large
scale works.

Food for thought. Also, defining the parameters of genius would make
for deeper discussion. Im not sure Sor was genius, but I do think his
music for the guitar is simply perfect. I humbly feel one can learn
all about playing the instrument (albeit in a certain harmonic and
stylistic period) technically, phrasing, interpretation, through his
music. I constantly come back to his works to center myself, discover
new ideas, new ways to phrase, and new fingerings etc. There is always
something there, from the shortest technical study to his Gran Solo.

-Chuck
www.duozona.com
www.myspace.com/duozona
Matanya Ophee
2007-08-12 20:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by chuck hulihan
Im sure most folks instantly get caught up in knowing only Sor's
guitar music, and instantly draw failed comparisons to Mozart's large
scale works.
Food for thought. Also, defining the parameters of genius would make
for deeper discussion. Im not sure Sor was genius, but I do think his
music for the guitar is simply perfect. I humbly feel one can learn
all about playing the instrument (albeit in a certain harmonic and
stylistic period) technically, phrasing, interpretation, through his
music. I constantly come back to his works to center myself, discover
new ideas, new ways to phrase, and new fingerings etc. There is always
something there, from the shortest technical study to his Gran Solo.
Well said Chuck.

Of course Sor is not Mozart and by the same token, Mozart is not Sor.
At the same time, those who speak disparagingly of 19th century guitar
music, are often the same people who do not understand that
Villa-Lobos is not Stravinsky, and Turina is not Shostakovich and
Ponce and Castelnuovo-Tedesco are not Ligetti.

Comparing bananas and apples is only useful if you are in the process
of baking a fruitcake. To post a dumb question like this, and to even
try and answer it seriously, can only come from a certified fruitcake.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://matanya.livejournal.com
Faustus Infinitus
2007-08-12 22:16:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by chuck hulihan
Im sure most folks instantly get caught up in knowing only Sor's
guitar music, and instantly draw failed comparisons to Mozart's large
scale works.
Food for thought. Also, defining the parameters of genius would make
for deeper discussion. Im not sure Sor was genius, but I do think his
music for the guitar is simply perfect. I humbly feel one can learn
all about playing the instrument (albeit in a certain harmonic and
stylistic period) technically, phrasing, interpretation, through his
music. I constantly come back to his works to center myself, discover
new ideas, new ways to phrase, and new fingerings etc. There is always
something there, from the shortest technical study to his Gran Solo.
Well said Chuck.
Of course Sor is not Mozart and by the same token, Mozart is not Sor.
At the same time, those who speak disparagingly of 19th century guitar
music, are often the same people who do not understand that
Villa-Lobos is not Stravinsky, and Turina is not Shostakovich and
Ponce and Castelnuovo-Tedesco are not Ligetti.
Comparing bananas and apples is only useful if you are in the process
of baking a fruitcake. To post a dumb question like this, and to even
try and answer it seriously, can only come from a certified fruitcake.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794http://www.editionsorphee.comhttp://matanya.livejournal.com
These exciting and admittedly astonishing assertions are not mine, but
my teacher's as communicated to me yesterday. This teacher is highly
respected in my area, is an excellent player, is on the Board of the
GFA and will be performing at the upcoming convention, and is likely
more musically knowledgeable than just about anyone here. He compared
Sor and Mozart on an absolute basis, not simply Sor relative to the
guitar world. I too was shocked, but coming from him, I think it's
something worth looking into. At any rate it's inspired me to learn
Sor's music, which I've largely neglected thus far.

By the way, Mr. Ophee, has the acrimony between you and Mr. Jeffery
cooled? And do you still recommend reading Jeffery's bio of Sor with
great caution?
Matanya Ophee
2007-08-12 22:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faustus Infinitus
These exciting and admittedly astonishing assertions are not mine, but
my teacher's as communicated to me yesterday. This teacher is highly
respected in my area, is an excellent player, is on the Board of the
GFA and will be performing at the upcoming convention, and is likely
more musically knowledgeable than just about anyone here.
I have known your teacher for many years now and I have no doubt he is
a fine musician. I am also sure he is more musically knowledgeable
than many who post here, but to say that he is "more musically
knowledgeable than just about anyone here" is silly hyperbole. Just
like the one about comparing Sor and Mozart.
Post by Faustus Infinitus
He compared
Sor and Mozart on an absolute basis, not simply Sor relative to the
guitar world.
Such comparisons are not possible nor are they reasonable, and Chuck
Houlihan defined quite clearly why. If your teacher really said what
you said he said, then I would strongly advise to seek another teacher
or ignore such pompous declarations from him. This is not about
musical knowledge, but about musical wisdom.
Post by Faustus Infinitus
I too was shocked, but coming from him, I think it's
something worth looking into. At any rate it's inspired me to learn
Sor's music, which I've largely neglected thus far.
Good for you.
Post by Faustus Infinitus
By the way, Mr. Ophee, has the acrimony between you and Mr. Jeffery
cooled?
Well, my critique of his Sor biography is more than ten years old, and
so is his refusal to deal with it on a point by point basis. Nothing
changed.
Post by Faustus Infinitus
And do you still recommend reading Jeffery's bio of Sor with
great caution?
I would recommend reading any text, no matter who is the author, with
a great deal of caution. Particularly those authors who come on as
self-described authorities and tell you

.__trust me.

If you want to read about Fernando Sor, I would recommend Luis
Gasser's Sor Studies. 33 articles dealing with this composer.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://matanya.livejournal.com
Faustus Infinitus
2007-08-13 00:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Faustus Infinitus
These exciting and admittedly astonishing assertions are not mine, but
my teacher's as communicated to me yesterday. This teacher is highly
respected in my area, is an excellent player, is on the Board of the
GFA and will be performing at the upcoming convention, and is likely
more musically knowledgeable than just about anyone here.
I have known your teacher for many years now and I have no doubt he is
a fine musician. I am also sure he is more musically knowledgeable
than many who post here, but to say that he is "more musically
knowledgeable than just about anyone here" is silly hyperbole. Just
like the one about comparing Sor and Mozart.
Post by Faustus Infinitus
He compared
Sor and Mozart on an absolute basis, not simply Sor relative to the
guitar world.
Such comparisons are not possible nor are they reasonable, and Chuck
Houlihan defined quite clearly why. If your teacher really said what
you said he said, then I would strongly advise to seek another teacher
or ignore such pompous declarations from him. This is not about
musical knowledge, but about musical wisdom.
Post by Faustus Infinitus
I too was shocked, but coming from him, I think it's
something worth looking into. At any rate it's inspired me to learn
Sor's music, which I've largely neglected thus far.
Good for you.
Post by Faustus Infinitus
By the way, Mr. Ophee, has the acrimony between you and Mr. Jeffery
cooled?
Well, my critique of his Sor biography is more than ten years old, and
so is his refusal to deal with it on a point by point basis. Nothing
changed.
Post by Faustus Infinitus
And do you still recommend reading Jeffery's bio of Sor with
great caution?
I would recommend reading any text, no matter who is the author, with
a great deal of caution. Particularly those authors who come on as
self-described authorities and tell you
.__trust me.
If you want to read about Fernando Sor, I would recommend Luis
Gasser's Sor Studies. 33 articles dealing with this composer.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794http://www.editionsorphee.comhttp://matanya.livejournal.com
I would recommend reading any text, no matter who is the author, with
a great deal of caution.
Excellent advice indeed.

His comments on Sor and Mozart occurred while going over a study from
the Sor studies book for which you wrote the historical intro (Mel Bay/
Chanterelle). Irrelevent info, but there it is anyway. Next time I'll
ask him about what he said, to make sure I didn't misunderstand. I was
certainly shocked and very pleased to hear such words, and perhaps my
delight somehow introduced a cloud in my accurately recollecting his
words here.

Thanks for the book recommendation.
Faustus Infinitus
2007-08-13 00:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Well, my critique of his Sor biography is more than ten years old
By the way, I looked for this on your site but couldn't find it. Is it
to be found anywhere now, and if so, will you direct me to it?
Matanya Ophee
2007-08-13 00:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faustus Infinitus
Post by Matanya Ophee
Well, my critique of his Sor biography is more than ten years old
By the way, I looked for this on your site but couldn't find it. Is it
to be found anywhere now, and if so, will you direct me to it?
In general:

http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/

In particular:

http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/jeffery/jeffery.htm

and

http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/sor-etud.htm

and

http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/reply.htm

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://matanya.livejournal.com
Carlos Barrientos
2007-08-13 13:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Faustus Infinitus
These exciting and admittedly astonishing assertions are not mine, but
my teacher's as communicated to me yesterday. This teacher is highly
respected in my area, is an excellent player, is on the Board of the
GFA and will be performing at the upcoming convention, and is likely
more musically knowledgeable than just about anyone here.
"more musically knowledgeable than just about anyone here."

Now there's an assumption!

Relax, Faustus, I have known eminent musicians in my day whom I COULD
NOT HIRE to play in my band because, despite their many degrees and
accolades, could not hold the gig down! We are ALL humans here. That's
part of why this collective exists, we ALL bring something unique to the
table!
Post by Matanya Ophee
I have known your teacher for many years now and I have no doubt he is
a fine musician. I am also sure he is more musically knowledgeable
than many who post here, but to say that he is "more musically
knowledgeable than just about anyone here" is silly hyperbole. Just
like the one about comparing Sor and Mozart.
Hear, hear!
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Faustus Infinitus
He compared
Sor and Mozart on an absolute basis, not simply Sor relative to the
guitar world.
Such comparisons are not possible nor are they reasonable, and Chuck
Houlihan defined quite clearly why. If your teacher really said what
you said he said, then I would strongly advise to seek another teacher
or ignore such pompous declarations from him. This is not about
musical knowledge, but about musical wisdom.
Post by Faustus Infinitus
I too was shocked, but coming from him, I think it's
something worth looking into. At any rate it's inspired me to learn
Sor's music, which I've largely neglected thus far.
Good for you.
Post by Faustus Infinitus
By the way, Mr. Ophee, has the acrimony between you and Mr. Jeffery
cooled?
Well, my critique of his Sor biography is more than ten years old, and
so is his refusal to deal with it on a point by point basis. Nothing
changed.
For the record: Not all that is published is true or accurate or well
researched. DUH!!!

I offer as proof the article on Charlie Christian, guitarist, published
by Gunther Schuller in his book the "Swing Era". Herr Schuller copied
much of it verbatim from the album liner notes on the Charlie Christian
compilation album which he neither wrote nor credited.

Terrible scholarship, no?

While taking a Jazz History class under Bill Kennedy at FSU,I determined
to write an article on Charlie Christian. I ran into this discrepancy,
brought it to the attention of my teacher, friend to Herr Schuller, in
an article that I read to my class pointing out this plagiarism.

So what's so wrong about the plagiarism? There is conflicting evidence,
in print, no less; from an independant eye witness that the information
is wrong!

I wrote to Herr Schuller, in my most respectful