Discussion:
Schoenberg,makes you wonder
(too old to reply)
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-20 20:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Hearing this superb performance of the Kolisch Quartet of Schoenberg
from 1937 makes you wonder how a Llobett, Luise Walker or Segovia
would have played music in this style.




agil
2009-07-20 20:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hearing this superb performance of the Kolisch Quartet of Schoenberg
from 1937 makes you wonder how a Llobett, Luise Walker or Segovia
would have played music in this style.
http://youtu.be/cSTZYSWBXYY
Llobet and Segovia were culturally very distant from the Wien school, but
if we can spend (as a joke) a guess, I would dare to say that the author or
that area they (Llobet and Segovia) could have approached more
confidentially, would have been Alban Berg. Actually, in Berg's music there
is almost always a lyricism which could have offered a chance to the sort of
expression which the two great Spanish guitarists were looking for. As for
Schoenberg, I could see Llobet playing an imaginary part in a work like
"Verlachte Nacht", the post-Brahms Schoenberg, but I could hardly imagine
Llobet - or Segovia - playing the guitar part of the "Serenade".

Luise Walker was a refined and skilled guitarist, and she was a Wiener
citizen, so she might have known very well those masters and their works,
but in all her recordings - which I have listened to with a great respect -
I never saw the slightest sign of an interest for non tonal music. She
performed and recorded Santorsola's Concertino for guitar and orchestra, but
it was the first epoque, tonally based Santorsola's style, not the 12tone
Santorsola later style.

ag
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-20 20:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Yes, but the sound and approach of the Kolisch Quartet reminds me of
the intensity of Llobett playing his folksong arrangements and
Albeniz's "Evocacion" or Segovia playing Bach in his early EMI
recordings. I can imagine Krenek's Suite or Martin's Quatre Pieces and
Strasfogel's Triptych with the sound and expression of pre-WW2
performance practice.

For example, I think Pollini plays Schoenberg more from the
perspective of Boulez than of Brahms I hope to find the Eduard
Steuermann's recording of Schoenberg soon and hear an approach closer
to the Viennese.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hearing this superb performance of the Kolisch Quartet of Schoenberg
from 1937 makes you wonder how a Llobett, Luise Walker or  Segovia
would have played music in this style.
http://youtu.be/cSTZYSWBXYY
Llobet and Segovia were culturally very distant from  the Wien school, but
if we can spend (as a joke) a guess, I would dare to say that the author or
that area they (Llobet and Segovia) could have approached more
confidentially, would have been Alban Berg. Actually, in Berg's music there
is almost always a lyricism which could have offered a chance to the sort of
expression which the two great Spanish guitarists were looking for. As for
Schoenberg, I could see Llobet playing an imaginary part in a work like
"Verlachte Nacht", the post-Brahms Schoenberg, but I could hardly imagine
Llobet - or Segovia - playing the guitar part of the "Serenade".
Luise Walker was a refined and skilled guitarist, and she was a Wiener
citizen, so she might have known very well those masters and their works,
but in all her recordings - which I have listened to with a great respect -
I never saw the slightest sign of an interest for non tonal music. She
performed and recorded Santorsola's Concertino for guitar and orchestra, but
it was the first epoque, tonally based Santorsola's style, not the 12tone
Santorsola later style.
ag
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-07-21 00:29:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Yes, but the sound and approach of the Kolisch Quartet reminds me of
the intensity of Llobett playing his folksong arrangements and
Albeniz's "Evocacion"
Are these recordings available?

Steve


or Segovia playing Bach in his early EMI
Post by f***@yahoo.com
recordings. I can imagine Krenek's Suite or Martin's Quatre Pieces and
Strasfogel's Triptych with the sound and expression of pre-WW2
performance practice.
For example, I think Pollini plays Schoenberg more from the
perspective of Boulez than of Brahms I hope to find the Eduard
Steuermann's recording of Schoenberg soon and hear an approach closer
to the Viennese.
Post by agil
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hearing this superb performance of the Kolisch Quartet of Schoenberg
from 1937 makes you wonder how a Llobett, Luise Walker or Segovia
would have played music in this style.
http://youtu.be/cSTZYSWBXYY
Llobet and Segovia were culturally very distant from the Wien school, but
if we can spend (as a joke) a guess, I would dare to say that the author or
that area they (Llobet and Segovia) could have approached more
confidentially, would have been Alban Berg. Actually, in Berg's music there
is almost always a lyricism which could have offered a chance to the sort of
expression which the two great Spanish guitarists were looking for. As for
Schoenberg, I could see Llobet playing an imaginary part in a work like
"Verlachte Nacht", the post-Brahms Schoenberg, but I could hardly imagine
Llobet - or Segovia - playing the guitar part of the "Serenade".
Luise Walker was a refined and skilled guitarist, and she was a Wiener
citizen, so she might have known very well those masters and their works,
but in all her recordings - which I have listened to with a great respect -
I never saw the slightest sign of an interest for non tonal music. She
performed and recorded Santorsola's Concertino for guitar and orchestra, but
it was the first epoque, tonally based Santorsola's style, not the 12tone
Santorsola later style.
ag
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-21 00:39:55 UTC
Permalink
here you go:

http://www.chanterelle.com/shop/chanterelle/index.php?page=detail&match=LISA_NR2=CHR001

And I just found this, although I think few would be interested as it
related to but a few pieces in the guitar rep.

http://pages.pomona.edu/~awc04747/AMS96/ams96.html



On Jul 20, 8:29 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Yes, but the sound and approach of the Kolisch Quartet reminds me of
the intensity of Llobett playing his folksong arrangements and
Albeniz's "Evocacion"
Are these recordings available?
Steve
  or Segovia playing Bach in his early EMI
Post by f***@yahoo.com
recordings. I can imagine Krenek's Suite or Martin's Quatre Pieces and
Strasfogel's Triptych with the sound and expression of pre-WW2
performance practice.
For example, I think Pollini plays Schoenberg more from the
perspective of Boulez than of Brahms  I hope to find the  Eduard
Steuermann's recording of Schoenberg soon and hear an approach closer
to the Viennese.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hearing this superb performance of the Kolisch Quartet of Schoenberg
from 1937 makes you wonder how a Llobett, Luise Walker or  Segovia
would have played music in this style.
http://youtu.be/cSTZYSWBXYY
Llobet and Segovia were culturally very distant from  the Wien school, but
if we can spend (as a joke) a guess, I would dare to say that the author or
that area they (Llobet and Segovia) could have approached more
confidentially, would have been Alban Berg. Actually, in Berg's music there
is almost always a lyricism which could have offered a chance to the sort of
expression which the two great Spanish guitarists were looking for. As for
Schoenberg, I could see Llobet playing an imaginary part in a work like
"Verlachte Nacht", the post-Brahms Schoenberg, but I could hardly imagine
Llobet - or Segovia - playing the guitar part of the "Serenade".
Luise Walker was a refined and skilled guitarist, and she was a Wiener
citizen, so she might have known very well those masters and their works,
but in all her recordings - which I have listened to with a great respect -
I never saw the slightest sign of an interest for non tonal music. She
performed and recorded Santorsola's Concertino for guitar and orchestra, but
it was the first epoque, tonally based Santorsola's style, not the 12tone
Santorsola later style.
ag
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Steven Bornfeld
2009-07-21 03:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
http://www.chanterelle.com/shop/chanterelle/index.php?page=detail&match=LISA_NR2=CHR001
Thanks!
Post by f***@yahoo.com
And I just found this, although I think few would be interested as it
related to but a few pieces in the guitar rep.
http://pages.pomona.edu/~awc04747/AMS96/ams96.html
Actually I would be. I've been trying to make sense of the Second
Viennese School, and I need all the help I can get!

Steve
Matt Faunce
2009-07-21 10:00:04 UTC
Permalink
        Actually I would be.  I've been trying to make sense of the Second
Viennese School, and I need all the help I can get!
Steve
My music theory teacher told our class the composers from the Second
Viennese School thought Twelve Tone Music was so mathematically
beautiful that it will, no doubt, come very naturally to people. In
fact one day and soon, they thought, you will hear the milk man
whistling Twelve Tone melodies as he works. I wrote two simple pieces
imagining what the milk man might whistle. I just recorded them and
put them up here:

http://www.youtube.com/matthewjohnfaunce

Maybe these simple pieces might make for a good introduction.

Matt
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-21 11:53:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi Matt,

I seem to remember that it was Webern that said children would be
whistling 12 tone tunes.Same idea...

Here is a link to a piece for children written by Webern in 1924. This
youtube link shows the score, too.



One of the funniest remarks of Schoenberg's technique is in Bartok's
violin concerto. After a series of 12 notes is stated in the violin, a
"row", Bartok has the brasses give a good old "Bronx Cheer".

I think 12 tone technique is extremely flexible. In fact, one if my
favorite pieces of all time is 12 tone: "Piccola Musica
Notturna" (1954)of Dallapiccola. It is a little gem!

Mark
Post by Matt Faunce
        Actually I would be.  I've been trying to make sense of the Second
Viennese School, and I need all the help I can get!
Steve
My music theory teacher told our class the composers from the Second
Viennese School thought Twelve Tone Music was so mathematically
beautiful that it will, no doubt, come very naturally to people. In
fact one day and soon, they thought, you will hear the milk man
whistling Twelve Tone melodies as he works. I wrote two simple pieces
imagining what the milk man might whistle. I just recorded them and
http://www.youtube.com/matthewjohnfaunce
Maybe these simple pieces might make for a good introduction.
Matt
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-07-21 16:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matt,
I seem to remember that it was Webern that said children would be
whistling 12 tone tunes.Same idea...
Here is a link to a piece for children written by Webern in 1924. This
youtube link shows the score, too.
http://youtu.be/9umvR9_3peQ
One of the funniest remarks of Schoenberg's technique is in Bartok's
violin concerto. After a series of 12 notes is stated in the violin, a
"row", Bartok has the brasses give a good old "Bronx Cheer".
That's terrific! I've just started reading Halsey Stevens's " The Life
and Music of Bela Bartok".

S.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I think 12 tone technique is extremely flexible. In fact, one if my
favorite pieces of all time is 12 tone: "Piccola Musica
Notturna" (1954)of Dallapiccola. It is a little gem!
Mark
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Actually I would be. I've been trying to make sense of the Second
Viennese School, and I need all the help I can get!
Steve
My music theory teacher told our class the composers from the Second
Viennese School thought Twelve Tone Music was so mathematically
beautiful that it will, no doubt, come very naturally to people. In
fact one day and soon, they thought, you will hear the milk man
whistling Twelve Tone melodies as he works. I wrote two simple pieces
imagining what the milk man might whistle. I just recorded them and
http://www.youtube.com/matthewjohnfaunce
Maybe these simple pieces might make for a good introduction.
Matt
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-21 16:36:59 UTC
Permalink
I love that book of Stevens!

I read referred to it so many times that it eventually just fell
apart!

Steve, you might like this discussion between Glen Gould and Yehudi
Menuhin about the Schoenberg Fantasy



Isn't Menuhin elegant?

Mark


On Jul 21, 12:24 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matt,
I seem to remember that it was Webern that said children would be
whistling 12 tone tunes.Same idea...
Here is a link to a piece for children written by Webern in 1924. This
youtube link shows the score, too.
http://youtu.be/9umvR9_3peQ
One of the funniest remarks of Schoenberg's technique is in Bartok's
violin concerto. After a series of 12 notes is stated in the violin, a
"row",  Bartok has the brasses give a good old "Bronx Cheer".
That's terrific!  I've just started reading Halsey Stevens's " The Life
and Music of Bela Bartok".
S.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I think 12 tone technique is extremely flexible. In fact, one if my
favorite pieces of all time is 12 tone: "Piccola Musica
Notturna" (1954)of Dallapiccola. It is a little gem!
Mark
Post by Matt Faunce
        Actually I would be.  I've been trying to make sense of the Second
Viennese School, and I need all the help I can get!
Steve
My music theory teacher told our class the composers from the Second
Viennese School thought Twelve Tone Music was so mathematically
beautiful that it will, no doubt, come very naturally to people. In
fact one day and soon, they thought, you will hear the milk man
whistling Twelve Tone melodies as he works. I wrote two simple pieces
imagining what the milk man might whistle. I just recorded them and
http://www.youtube.com/matthewjohnfaunce
Maybe these simple pieces might make for a good introduction.
Matt
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-07-21 17:46:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I love that book of Stevens!
I read referred to it so many times that it eventually just fell
apart!
Steve, you might like this discussion between Glen Gould and Yehudi
Menuhin about the Schoenberg Fantasy
http://youtu.be/av2XTNgA72w
Isn't Menuhin elegant?
Mark
Well, certainly. Fascinating. I certainly don't associate either man
particularly with Schoenberg. And at the risk of getting someone angry,
Menuhin is particularly elegant next to the skulking, crab-like Gould.
They are more equal partners in elegance in the actual video of the
Fantasy. Of course this was before Menuhin went for the floral print
shirts and tried to keep up with Stephane Grappelli ;-)
I figure this must have been done for television--I'm guessing early
1960s? How often do we see two titans like these actually talking about
music on television?
Many thanks for the link--terrific!

Steve
Post by f***@yahoo.com
On Jul 21, 12:24 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matt,
I seem to remember that it was Webern that said children would be
whistling 12 tone tunes.Same idea...
Here is a link to a piece for children written by Webern in 1924. This
youtube link shows the score, too.
http://youtu.be/9umvR9_3peQ
One of the funniest remarks of Schoenberg's technique is in Bartok's
violin concerto. After a series of 12 notes is stated in the violin, a
"row", Bartok has the brasses give a good old "Bronx Cheer".
That's terrific! I've just started reading Halsey Stevens's " The Life
and Music of Bela Bartok".
S.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I think 12 tone technique is extremely flexible. In fact, one if my
favorite pieces of all time is 12 tone: "Piccola Musica
Notturna" (1954)of Dallapiccola. It is a little gem!
Mark
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Actually I would be. I've been trying to make sense of the Second
Viennese School, and I need all the help I can get!
Steve
My music theory teacher told our class the composers from the Second
Viennese School thought Twelve Tone Music was so mathematically
beautiful that it will, no doubt, come very naturally to people. In
fact one day and soon, they thought, you will hear the milk man
whistling Twelve Tone melodies as he works. I wrote two simple pieces
imagining what the milk man might whistle. I just recorded them and
http://www.youtube.com/matthewjohnfaunce
Maybe these simple pieces might make for a good introduction.
Matt
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-21 18:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Gould interviewed:



Interesting comments about the Berg Sonata later in the interview




On Jul 21, 1:46 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I love that book of Stevens!
I read referred to it so many times that it eventually just fell
apart!
Steve, you might like this discussion between Glen Gould and Yehudi
Menuhin about the Schoenberg Fantasy
http://youtu.be/av2XTNgA72w
Isn't Menuhin elegant?
Mark
        Well, certainly.  Fascinating.  I certainly don't associate either man
particularly with Schoenberg.  And at the risk of getting someone angry,
Menuhin is particularly elegant next to the skulking, crab-like Gould.
They are more equal partners in elegance in the actual video of the
Fantasy.  Of course this was before Menuhin went for the floral print
shirts and tried to keep up with Stephane Grappelli ;-)
        I figure this must have been done for television--I'm guessing early
1960s?  How often do we see two titans like these actually talking about
music on television?
        Many thanks for the link--terrific!
Steve
Post by f***@yahoo.com
On Jul 21, 12:24 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matt,
I seem to remember that it was Webern that said children would be
whistling 12 tone tunes.Same idea...
Here is a link to a piece for children written by Webern in 1924. This
youtube link shows the score, too.
http://youtu.be/9umvR9_3peQ
One of the funniest remarks of Schoenberg's technique is in Bartok's
violin concerto. After a series of 12 notes is stated in the violin, a
"row",  Bartok has the brasses give a good old "Bronx Cheer".
That's terrific!  I've just started reading Halsey Stevens's " The Life
and Music of Bela Bartok".
S.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I think 12 tone technique is extremely flexible. In fact, one if my
favorite pieces of all time is 12 tone: "Piccola Musica
Notturna" (1954)of Dallapiccola. It is a little gem!
Mark
Post by Matt Faunce
        Actually I would be.  I've been trying to make sense of the Second
Viennese School, and I need all the help I can get!
Steve
My music theory teacher told our class the composers from the Second
Viennese School thought Twelve Tone Music was so mathematically
beautiful that it will, no doubt, come very naturally to people. In
fact one day and soon, they thought, you will hear the milk man
whistling Twelve Tone melodies as he works. I wrote two simple pieces
imagining what the milk man might whistle. I just recorded them and
http://www.youtube.com/matthewjohnfaunce
Maybe these simple pieces might make for a good introduction.
Matt
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Stanley Yates
2009-07-22 01:44:52 UTC
Permalink
H Mark,

There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems to
bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite, even the
Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write anything for
guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as the Notebook for
Annalibera would have been good for guitar. I know it's not fashionable, but
I do like Stravinsky's serial music. I once played the mandolin part in
Agon. Did you ever play the Boulez piece?


<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:89ca7b73-4285-41f5-8b9b-***@h11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Gould interviewed:

http://youtu.be/DhKWTVTl5Y4

Interesting comments about the Berg Sonata later in the interview




On Jul 21, 1:46 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I love that book of Stevens!
I read referred to it so many times that it eventually just fell
apart!
Steve, you might like this discussion between Glen Gould and Yehudi
Menuhin about the Schoenberg Fantasy
http://youtu.be/av2XTNgA72w
Isn't Menuhin elegant?
Mark
Well, certainly. Fascinating. I certainly don't associate either man
particularly with Schoenberg. And at the risk of getting someone angry,
Menuhin is particularly elegant next to the skulking, crab-like Gould.
They are more equal partners in elegance in the actual video of the
Fantasy. Of course this was before Menuhin went for the floral print
shirts and tried to keep up with Stephane Grappelli ;-)
I figure this must have been done for television--I'm guessing early
1960s? How often do we see two titans like these actually talking about
music on television?
Many thanks for the link--terrific!
Steve
Post by f***@yahoo.com
On Jul 21, 12:24 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matt,
I seem to remember that it was Webern that said children would be
whistling 12 tone tunes.Same idea...
Here is a link to a piece for children written by Webern in 1924. This
youtube link shows the score, too.
http://youtu.be/9umvR9_3peQ
One of the funniest remarks of Schoenberg's technique is in Bartok's
violin concerto. After a series of 12 notes is stated in the violin, a
"row", Bartok has the brasses give a good old "Bronx Cheer".
That's terrific! I've just started reading Halsey Stevens's " The Life
and Music of Bela Bartok".
S.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I think 12 tone technique is extremely flexible. In fact, one if my
favorite pieces of all time is 12 tone: "Piccola Musica
Notturna" (1954)of Dallapiccola. It is a little gem!
Mark
Post by Matt Faunce
Actually I would be. I've been trying to make sense of the Second
Viennese School, and I need all the help I can get!
Steve
My music theory teacher told our class the composers from the Second
Viennese School thought Twelve Tone Music was so mathematically
beautiful that it will, no doubt, come very naturally to people. In
fact one day and soon, they thought, you will hear the milk man
whistling Twelve Tone melodies as he works. I wrote two simple pieces
imagining what the milk man might whistle. I just recorded them and
http://www.youtube.com/matthewjohnfaunce
Maybe these simple pieces might make for a good introduction.
Matt
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
agil
2009-07-22 02:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
H Mark,
There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems to
bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite, even the
Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write anything
for guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as the Notebook for
Annalibera would have been good for guitar.
I asked him to write a guitar piece, but he answered he trusted Berlioz'
warning...

ag
Dicerous
2009-07-22 02:46:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
H Mark,
There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems to
bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite, even the
Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write anything
for guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as  the Notebook for
Annalibera would have been good for guitar.
I asked him to write a guitar piece, but he answered he trusted Berlioz'
warning...
ag
Art is murder, graffitti is prostitution!
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 11:29:29 UTC
Permalink
My guess is he was busy writing Ulisse. If Dallapiccola can write the
Ciaccona,Intermezzo e adagio for solo cello and the 2 pieces for solo
double bass, he would have not too much trouble writing an equal fine
guitar piece, especially with advice from you!
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
H Mark,
There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems to
bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite, even the
Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write anything
for guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as  the Notebook for
Annalibera would have been good for guitar.
I asked him to write a guitar piece, but he answered he trusted Berlioz'
warning...
ag
Stanley Yates
2009-07-22 16:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
H Mark,
There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems
to bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite, even
the Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write
anything for guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as the
Notebook for Annalibera would have been good for guitar.
I asked him to write a guitar piece, but he answered he trusted Berlioz'
warning...
ag
I would have been surprised to hear that you hadn't asked him. He's the
Italian analogue to Berg, but more refined. Would hav written well for the
guitar. Why did Berlioz even bother to include the guitar...
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-22 17:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Why did Berlioz even bother to include the guitar...
That's a good question. My suspicion is that he had an axe to grind
with one guitarist named Charles de Marescot, (yes he, the one from La
Guitaromanie fame),which he discusses at quite some length in his Les
Soirées de l'Orchestre. Besides, as a treatise on instrumentation,
aiming to acquaint would-be composers with the available resources out
there, he had no choice. He included the mandolin, didn't he? and
probably would have included the banjo, if he ever saw one. In any
case, we all know that the maxim proposed by him that one must be a
good guitarist to be able to write for the guitar, is not always fair.
OTOH, judging form the amount of unplayable garbage I have received
over the years from non-guitarist composers, I suspect he may have had
a point. He certainly had a point in declaring that 12 guitars in
unison is ridiculous.

MO.
agil
2009-07-22 17:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
I would have been surprised to hear that you hadn't asked him. He's the
Italian analogue to Berg, but more refined. Would hav written well for the
guitar. Why did Berlioz even bother to include the guitar...
It's strange. Reading Berlioz warning to composers who, writing for guitar
without playing it, would have created impossible or awkward works, it seems
clear that he referred to music he had actually seen.
I have always wondered which pieces deserved such a judgement from him.

ag
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 17:47:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
I would have been surprised to hear that you hadn't asked him. He's the
Italian analogue to Berg, but more refined. Would hav written well for the
guitar. Why did Berlioz even bother to include the guitar...
It's strange. Reading Berlioz warning to composers who, writing for guitar
without playing it, would have created impossible or awkward works, it seems
clear that he referred to music he had actually seen.
I have always wondered which pieces deserved such a judgement from him.
ag
great point!... maybe he was referring to himself. Judging from his
extant works for our instrument, he was barely a guitarist.
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-22 18:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
great point!... maybe he was referring to himself. Judging from his
extant works for our instrument, he was barely a guitarist.
There are no extant works by Berlioz for guitar. All there is, are
several copybooks of guitar music by Carulli and others, clearly
identifiable by anyone who is familiar with the repertoire of the
time, which his guitar teacher made him copy. I doubt he was referring
to any particular non-guitarist composer, unless it was an underhanded-
handed slap in the face to someone like Richard Wagner who published
in Paris, years before he was known for anything, a simple French
romance with pedestrian guitar accompaniment. There is a copy of it
in the Fryklund Collection in Stockholm.

MO.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 18:18:06 UTC
Permalink
What about the song of Mephisto from opus 1 huit scenes de faust for
tenor and guitar?
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
great point!... maybe he was referring to himself. Judging from his
extant works for our instrument, he was barely a guitarist.
There are no extant works by Berlioz for guitar. All there is, are
several copybooks of guitar music by Carulli and others, clearly
identifiable by anyone who is familiar with the repertoire of the
time, which his guitar teacher made him copy. I doubt he was referring
to any particular non-guitarist composer, unless it was an underhanded-
handed slap in the face to someone like Richard Wagner who published
in Paris, years before he was known for anything, a simple French
romance with pedestrian guitar accompaniment.  There is a copy of it
in the Fryklund Collection in  Stockholm.
MO.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 18:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Here is a link to the Berlioz Op.1 8th scene for those interested...


http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/8/83/IMSLP26458-PMLP58811-HB_33-8_Serenade_PML.pdf
Post by f***@yahoo.com
What about the song of Mephisto from opus 1 huit scenes de faust for
tenor and guitar?
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
great point!... maybe he was referring to himself. Judging from his
extant works for our instrument, he was barely a guitarist.
There are no extant works by Berlioz for guitar. All there is, are
several copybooks of guitar music by Carulli and others, clearly
identifiable by anyone who is familiar with the repertoire of the
time, which his guitar teacher made him copy. I doubt he was referring
to any particular non-guitarist composer, unless it was an underhanded-
handed slap in the face to someone like Richard Wagner who published
in Paris, years before he was known for anything, a simple French
romance with pedestrian guitar accompaniment.  There is a copy of it
in the Fryklund Collection in  Stockholm.
MO.
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-22 18:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
What about the song of Mephisto from opus 1 huit scenes de faust for
tenor and guitar?
Are you sure the original instrumentation of that calls for a guitar
and that this is not some one else's arrangement? The New Grove online
catalogue of the works of Berlioz does not give this work any
instrumentation. Can't check this any further from here... I have the
Hopkinson Berlioz Thematic catalogue at home...

MO.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 19:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Matanya,
It is in the New Berlioz Edition with guitar and there are a few
recordings with guitar, too.
What about the accompaniments to the Romances published by
Chanterelle?
And there is the piece for 2 sopranos and guitar that was published
by Guitar Review...
But for sure the op.1 is in the NBE.
Best,
Mark
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
What about the song of Mephisto from opus 1 huit scenes de faust for
tenor and guitar?
Are you sure the original instrumentation of that calls for a guitar
and that this is not some one else's arrangement? The New Grove online
catalogue of the works of Berlioz does not give this work any
instrumentation. Can't check this any further from here... I have the
Hopkinson Berlioz Thematic catalogue at home...
MO.
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-22 20:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matanya,
 It is in the New Berlioz Edition with guitar and there are a few
recordings with guitar, too.
Recordings don't mean a thing, and neither does the NBE, considering
who were in charge of that project. I'll have to go home and dig out
some of my old files on this question.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
 What about the accompaniments to the Romances published by
Chanterelle?
The Fryklund collection on Stockholm has more than 10,000 French
romances with guitar, by many different people, none of whom is called
Berlioz. Personally I have some 400-500 such romances, a couple of
which are in the Berlioz copybooks. There is nothing in these copy
books, I looked at them in the Berlioz Museum in St. Andre sever years
ago, to indicate that they were original by Berlioz, and not copies
from currently available printed romances.

MO.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 20:17:01 UTC
Permalink
...and there is the guitar part in Beatrice and Benedict
Mark
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matanya,
 It is in the New Berlioz Edition with guitar and there are a few
recordings with guitar, too.
Recordings don't mean a thing, and neither does the NBE, considering
who were in charge of that project. I'll have to go home and dig out
some of my old files on this question.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
 What about the accompaniments to the Romances published by
Chanterelle?
The Fryklund collection on Stockholm has more than 10,000 French
romances with guitar, by many different people, none of whom is called
Berlioz. Personally I have some 400-500 such romances, a couple of
which are in the Berlioz copybooks. There is nothing in these copy
books, I looked at them in the Berlioz Museum in St. Andre sever years
ago, to indicate that they were original by Berlioz, and not copies
from currently available printed romances.
MO.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 20:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Here is a link to the score of Berlioz' Beatrice. The guitar part
starts on page 244.


http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/8/88/IMSLP24824-PMLP27874-Berlioz_-_B__atrice_et_B__n__dict__full_score_.pdf

Its from the Petrucci library if the link does not work..

Best mark
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matanya,
 It is in the New Berlioz Edition with guitar and there are a few
recordings with guitar, too.
Recordings don't mean a thing, and neither does the NBE, considering
who were in charge of that project. I'll have to go home and dig out
some of my old files on this question.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
 What about the accompaniments to the Romances published by
Chanterelle?
The Fryklund collection on Stockholm has more than 10,000 French
romances with guitar, by many different people, none of whom is called
Berlioz. Personally I have some 400-500 such romances, a couple of
which are in the Berlioz copybooks. There is nothing in these copy
books, I looked at them in the Berlioz Museum in St. Andre sever years
ago, to indicate that they were original by Berlioz, and not copies
from currently available printed romances.
MO.
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-22 20:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Here is a link to the score of Berlioz' Beatrice. The guitar part
starts  on page 244.
I'll get back to you on that next week. Right now, I am not able to
check my sources.

MO.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 20:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Here is a link to the score of Berlioz' Beatrice. The guitar part
starts  on page 244.
I'll get back to you on that next week. Right now, I am not able to
check my sources.
MO.
Thanks Matanya,
I don't mean to pester you !
best,
Mark
Carlos Barrientos
2009-07-22 22:30:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Here is a link to the score of Berlioz' Beatrice. The guitar part
starts on page 244.
I'll get back to you on that next week. Right now, I am not able to
check my sources.
MO.
Thanks Matanya,
I don't mean to pester you !
best,
Mark
Yeah you do...
;)
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@gmail.com"
Phone: (229) 594-6374
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-07-22 18:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
great point!... maybe he was referring to himself. Judging from his
extant works for our instrument, he was barely a guitarist.
There are no extant works by Berlioz for guitar. All there is, are
several copybooks of guitar music by Carulli and others, clearly
identifiable by anyone who is familiar with the repertoire of the
time, which his guitar teacher made him copy. I doubt he was referring
to any particular non-guitarist composer, unless it was an underhanded-
handed slap in the face to someone like Richard Wagner who published
in Paris, years before he was known for anything, a simple French
romance with pedestrian guitar accompaniment. There is a copy of it
in the Fryklund Collection in Stockholm.
MO.
I hadn't heard about Berlioz's teacher, though I have heard claims he
was familiar with the guitar. For that matter, I'd also heard he was
far from a virtuoso on any particular instrument. This website
agrees--I have no idea who Louis C. Elson was, nor how much stock we can
place in his writings. I had not heard the same of Wagner though.
I've been tempted to find translations of some of his criticism--I've
heard he was quite a wit.

http://www.hberlioz.com/others/Berlioz1888.htm

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-22 19:06:36 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 22, 2:23 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
        I've been tempted to find translations of some of his criticism--I've
heard he was quite a wit.
there is a very good translation of Evenings with the Orchestra. In
paper back. You will enjoy it. Contains what amounts to the earliest
know science fiction story, years before Jules Verne.

MO.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-07-22 19:40:36 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 22, 2:23 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
I've been tempted to find translations of some of his criticism--I've
heard he was quite a wit.
there is a very good translation of Evenings with the Orchestra. In
paper back. You will enjoy it. Contains what amounts to the earliest
know science fiction story, years before Jules Verne.
MO.
So happens this was in the NY Times just last week--apparently the
concept of space travel (in any case) predates even Berlioz:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/movies/19strau.html?scp=2&sq=jules%20verne&st=cse

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Stanley Yates
2009-07-23 07:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
I would have been surprised to hear that you hadn't asked him. He's the
Italian analogue to Berg, but more refined. Would hav written well for
the guitar. Why did Berlioz even bother to include the guitar...
It's strange. Reading Berlioz warning to composers who, writing for guitar
without playing it, would have created impossible or awkward works, it
seems clear that he referred to music he had actually seen.
I have always wondered which pieces deserved such a judgement from him.
ag
Like Mark, I feel it can only have been Berlioz' own experience that led him
to make that remark. We can imagine the reaction of a mid-century Parisian
guitarist to an acompaniment part that didn't take account of the
idiosyncratic voicing of the guitar.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 17:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stanley,

Dallapiccola is more refined than Berg in expression but not more
refined in technique.

Dallapiccola is sometimes charged by 12 toners as being so loose with
his rows as to not be dodecaphonic.

And whereas the Viennese were working towards unity, say, with Berg
writing Lulu using one 12 tone row, Dallapiccola had to use 3 (count
'em 3) different tone rows to compose Il Prigioniero. Dallapiccola
even named them (row of hope...I forget the other 2)

Boulez writes that Berg communicates the "feelings of fascination,
nostalgia, often paroxysm".

What do you expect from a guy that impregnated the family maid when he
was 17.

Mark
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
H Mark,
There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems
to bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite, even
the Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write
anything for guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as  the
Notebook for Annalibera would have been good for guitar.
I asked him to write a guitar piece, but he answered he trusted Berlioz'
warning...
ag
I would have been surprised to hear that you hadn't asked him. He's the
Italian analogue to Berg, but more refined. Would hav written well for the
guitar. Why did Berlioz even bother to include the guitar...
agil
2009-07-22 06:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
H Mark,
There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems to
bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite, even the
Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write anything
for guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as the Notebook for
Annalibera would have been good for guitar.
Needless to say, I also used quite a lot Apostel and Krenek. "Sechs Musiken"
by the former have been recorded by an ex-student of mine, Luigi Vedele.
Another very useful and significant example of twelve tone technique applied
to the guitar idiom is the series of "Drei Fantasien" by Jurg Baur.

If you appreciated Dallapiccola's "Quaderno per Annalibera", then you might
like a lot the series "Quaderno I", "Quaderno II", "Quaderno III" for guitar
by Carlo Mosso.
Though not conceived as strictly serial compositions, they breath the air of
Italian serialism of which Dallapiccola was the champion.

I will have the Publisher sending a copy of the three booklets to your
University address today.

ag
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 11:58:59 UTC
Permalink
A piece worth mentioning is Smith Brindle's "El Polifemo de
Oro" (first version).Even though it is commonly played it serves as an
excellent introduction for a guitarist that is a new comer to 12 tone
music. Except perhaps the 3rd fragment , the sound of its extended
chords and harmonic fields via repeated notes and repeated groups of
notes go down easy and serves as a way for those interested to see how
harmonic movement is possible within the 12 tone technique. .
Brindle was also a Dallapiccola student.
Mark
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
H Mark,
There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems to
bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite, even the
Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write anything
for guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as  the Notebook for
Annalibera would have been good for guitar.
Needless to say, I also used quite a lot Apostel and Krenek. "Sechs Musiken"
by the former have been recorded by an ex-student of mine, Luigi Vedele.
Another very useful and significant example of twelve tone technique applied
to the guitar idiom is the series of "Drei Fantasien" by Jurg Baur.
If you appreciated Dallapiccola's "Quaderno per Annalibera", then you might
like a lot the series "Quaderno I", "Quaderno II", "Quaderno III" for guitar
by Carlo Mosso.
Though not conceived as strictly serial compositions, they breath the air of
Italian serialism of which Dallapiccola was the champion.
I will have the Publisher sending a copy of the three booklets to your
University address today.
ag
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-22 12:57:51 UTC
Permalink
A  piece  worth mentioning is Smith Brindle's "El Polifemo de
Oro" (first version).
http://tinyurl.com/lqo4fv

MO.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 13:47:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
A  piece  worth mentioning is Smith Brindle's "El Polifemo de
Oro" (first version).
http://tinyurl.com/lqo4fv
MO.
Yes I know. That nickname sticks to the brain and you can't ever
forget it!!
Part of the reason I don't know Aplivor is because I wasted so much
money ordering Brindle's not-very-good Sonatas some time ago, that I
stopped ordering music sight unseen and without recommendation. Of
course, I bought the Sonatas on the basis of "Polifemo'
Now I have a policy that if 2 people I respect recommend something I
haven't seen or heard, I buy it! That seems to work well.
Mark
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-22 15:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by Matanya Ophee
A  piece  worth mentioning is Smith Brindle's "El Polifemo de
Oro" (first version).
http://tinyurl.com/lqo4fv
MO.
Yes I know. That nickname sticks to the brain and you can't ever
forget it!!
The funny thing is that the first I heard this, was in the 1986 First
Guitar Congress in Maryland, the one artistically directed by Eliot
Fisk. There was a composer's round table chaired by Milton Babbit. In
the discussion, there was something about Mikorcosmos and Brindle's
version of it. I said a few things about that. After the event, Babbit
came over and whispered in my ear that I got the name wrong....

MO.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 15:59:35 UTC
Permalink
I can't imagine Babbitt knowing Brindle's guitar music. Perhaps he
knows Brindle's non guitar music but I would bet that he knows
Brindle's book "Serial Composition" and I am sure he knows the series
of articles Brindel wrote in new music periodicals. Brindle had
columsn in one of them entitled notes from Italy or something like
that.

Babbitt's PHD thesis was rejected because the jury could not
understand it. The musicians on the panel could not understand the
mathematics involved and the mathematicians did not understand the
musical stuff..
Some 30 or 40 years later they found a way to read the thesis and
Babbitt was granted his Doctorate.
This was reported in local newspapers.

I am sure Babbitt moniker is referring to Brindle's book primarily.

Brindle's approach to 12 tone theory is vastly different than the set
theory developed by the Americans Babbitt, Perle and Wuorinen,etc.
I've books by all these fellows and believe me Brindle is different.
Brindle is more like what I grew up in high school and early college.
It's simpler and more tied to tradition and derived from Krenek.
Babbitt is ingenious and over my head. I favor George Perle's
approach of all the Americans. I approached him for composition
lessons once but he told me he was retired from teaching.
But all this is old hat, I guess.
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by Matanya Ophee
A  piece  worth mentioning is Smith Brindle's "El Polifemo de
Oro" (first version).
http://tinyurl.com/lqo4fv
MO.
Yes I know. That nickname sticks to the brain and you can't ever
forget it!!
The funny thing is that the first I heard this, was in the 1986 First
Guitar Congress in Maryland, the one artistically directed by Eliot
Fisk. There was a composer's round table chaired by Milton Babbit. In
the discussion, there was something about Mikorcosmos and Brindle's
version of it. I said a few things about that. After the event, Babbit
came over and whispered in my ear that I got the name wrong....
MO.
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-22 15:17:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Now I have a policy that if 2 people I respect recommend something I
haven't seen or heard, I buy it! That seems to work well.
OK. I recommend:

Sonata by Valery Kikta,
Prelude, Choral and Fugue by Alexandre Eisenberg
White Nights Serenade by Grigori Korchmar
24 Preludes by Gilbert Biberian
Ikonostas by Angelo Gilardino
Fantasia for solo guitar by Douglas Hein
Toccata y Lamento by Roberto Sierra
Sonata by Konstantin Vassiliev
Strophes Of Sappho 5 postludes for guitar by Jan Freidlin
Letters from Arles for guitar by Jan Freidlin

Hoping that you trust my judgment, we still need a second opinion...
anybody?

MO.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 16:00:04 UTC
Permalink
: )

M.
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Now I have a policy that if 2 people I respect recommend something I
haven't seen or heard, I buy it! That seems to work well.
Sonata by Valery Kikta,
Prelude, Choral and Fugue by Alexandre Eisenberg
White Nights Serenade by Grigori Korchmar
24 Preludes by Gilbert Biberian
Ikonostas by Angelo Gilardino
Fantasia for solo guitar by Douglas Hein
Toccata y Lamento by Roberto Sierra
Sonata by Konstantin Vassiliev
Strophes Of Sappho 5 postludes for guitar by Jan Freidlin
Letters from Arles for guitar by Jan Freidlin
Hoping that you trust my judgment, we still need a second opinion...
anybody?
MO.
Carlos Barrientos
2009-07-22 17:30:23 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com wrote:
Ditto
: )
M.
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Now I have a policy that if 2 people I respect recommend something I
haven't seen or heard, I buy it! That seems to work well.
Sonata by Valery Kikta,
Prelude, Choral and Fugue by Alexandre Eisenberg
White Nights Serenade by Grigori Korchmar
24 Preludes by Gilbert Biberian
Ikonostas by Angelo Gilardino
Fantasia for solo guitar by Douglas Hein
Toccata y Lamento by Roberto Sierra
Sonata by Konstantin Vassiliev
Strophes Of Sappho 5 postludes for guitar by Jan Freidlin
Letters from Arles for guitar by Jan Freidlin
Hoping that you trust my judgment, we still need a second opinion...
anybody?
MO.
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@gmail.com"
Phone: (229) 594-6374
Stanley Yates
2009-07-22 16:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
H Mark,
There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems
to bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite, even
the Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write
anything for guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as the
Notebook for Annalibera would have been good for guitar.
Needless to say, I also used quite a lot Apostel and Krenek. "Sechs
Musiken" by the former have been recorded by an ex-student of mine, Luigi
Vedele.
Another very useful and significant example of twelve tone technique
applied to the guitar idiom is the series of "Drei Fantasien" by Jurg
Baur.
If you appreciated Dallapiccola's "Quaderno per Annalibera", then you
might like a lot the series "Quaderno I", "Quaderno II", "Quaderno III"
for guitar by Carlo Mosso.
Though not conceived as strictly serial compositions, they breath the air
of Italian serialism of which Dallapiccola was the champion.
I will have the Publisher sending a copy of the three booklets to your
University address today.
ag
Thank you Angelo - I'll look out for them.
Alain Reiher
2009-07-22 18:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
H Mark,
There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems
to bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite,
even the Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write
anything for guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as the
Notebook for Annalibera would have been good for guitar.
Needless to say, I also used quite a lot Apostel and Krenek. "Sechs
Musiken" by the former have been recorded by an ex-student of mine, Luigi
Vedele.
Another very useful and significant example of twelve tone technique
applied to the guitar idiom is the series of "Drei Fantasien" by Jurg
Baur.
If you appreciated Dallapiccola's "Quaderno per Annalibera", then you
might like a lot the series "Quaderno I", "Quaderno II", "Quaderno III"
for guitar by Carlo Mosso.
Though not conceived as strictly serial compositions, they breath the air
of Italian serialism of which Dallapiccola was the champion.
I will have the Publisher sending a copy of the three booklets to your
University address today.
ag
Thank you Angelo - I'll look out for them.
Here is a recording of what seems to be an integral of his guitar
compositions.

http://www.ibs.it/disco/8011570336385/carlo-mosso/complete-works-for.html#

Alain

(P.S. The most interesting thread since ... a long time!)
Stanley Yates
2009-07-23 03:46:32 UTC
Permalink
Alain,

Thanks for the link. The performance seems to be very good, to judge by the
sound samples. I wonder if this is one of Angelo's protoges?
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
H Mark,
There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems
to bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite,
even the Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write
anything for guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as the
Notebook for Annalibera would have been good for guitar.
Needless to say, I also used quite a lot Apostel and Krenek. "Sechs
Musiken" by the former have been recorded by an ex-student of mine,
Luigi Vedele.
Another very useful and significant example of twelve tone technique
applied to the guitar idiom is the series of "Drei Fantasien" by Jurg
Baur.
If you appreciated Dallapiccola's "Quaderno per Annalibera", then you
might like a lot the series "Quaderno I", "Quaderno II", "Quaderno III"
for guitar by Carlo Mosso.
Though not conceived as strictly serial compositions, they breath the
air of Italian serialism of which Dallapiccola was the champion.
I will have the Publisher sending a copy of the three booklets to your
University address today.
ag
Thank you Angelo - I'll look out for them.
Here is a recording of what seems to be an integral of his guitar
compositions.
http://www.ibs.it/disco/8011570336385/carlo-mosso/complete-works-for.html#
Alain
(P.S. The most interesting thread since ... a long time!)
agil
2009-07-23 06:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Alain,
Thanks for the link. The performance seems to be very good, to judge by
the sound samples. I wonder if this is one of Angelo's protoges?
No Stanley, the performer is Davide Ficco, not a student of mine, but a
younger and skilled colleague in the years of my teaching in the State
Conservatory.
In lack of an availability by Dallapiccola, I earned to the guitar
repertoire the contribution of Carlo Mosso who, in the following generation
of composers, was for sure an outstanding figure, working in the line of
Dallapiccola. I did not care of the fact his position was shadowed (he did
not follow the Darmstadt mainstream and his music was considered
conservative by the local intelighensia).
During the Seventies, I also earned to the guitar the music of Bruno
Bettinelli and of another dozen of Italian masters. I am especially fond of
a large scale work written for guitar by Wolfango Dalla Vecchia, a Petrassi
student and a renowned organist, who composed a suite entitled "Variati
amorosi momenti". His publisher was a strict friend of a guitar star, and
the manuscript was given to that hero, who couldn't make anything of it .
After years of unfilled promises, the hero condemned the piece as
"unplayable". So, the publisher (Zanibon) was obliged to ask me whether I
could take care of editing the work. I said yes, of course, and in one week
the edition was ready for print. Unfortunately, the Zanibon firm went to an
end, and its catalogue was sold to Ricordi, then BMG, then Universal, and
nowadays the Dalla Vecchia work is practically out of print. A pity, because
it stands among the great pieces o the historical 20th century guitar
repertoire...

ag
Stanley Yates
2009-07-23 07:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
Alain,
Thanks for the link. The performance seems to be very good, to judge by
the sound samples. I wonder if this is one of Angelo's protoges?
No Stanley, the performer is Davide Ficco, not a student of mine, but a
younger and skilled colleague in the years of my teaching in the State
Conservatory.
In lack of an availability by Dallapiccola, I earned to the guitar
repertoire the contribution of Carlo Mosso who, in the following
generation of composers, was for sure an outstanding figure, working in
the line of Dallapiccola. I did not care of the fact his position was
shadowed (he did not follow the Darmstadt mainstream and his music was
considered conservative by the local intelighensia).
During the Seventies, I also earned to the guitar the music of Bruno
Bettinelli and of another dozen of Italian masters. I am especially fond
of a large scale work written for guitar by Wolfango Dalla Vecchia, a
Petrassi student and a renowned organist, who composed a suite entitled
"Variati amorosi momenti". His publisher was a strict friend of a guitar
star, and the manuscript was given to that hero, who couldn't make
anything of it . After years of unfilled promises, the hero condemned the
piece as "unplayable". So, the publisher (Zanibon) was obliged to ask me
whether I could take care of editing the work. I said yes, of course, and
in one week the edition was ready for print. Unfortunately, the Zanibon
firm went to an end, and its catalogue was sold to Ricordi, then BMG, then
Universal, and nowadays the Dalla Vecchia work is practically out of
print. A pity, because it stands among the great pieces o the historical
20th century guitar repertoire...
ag
I have to say I'm looking forward to the Mosso scores. Did you edit the
Bettinelli Sonata? I agree about the quality of the Dalla Vecchia
Variations - I have your edition of this, and should probably look at it
again. By the way, was it Diaz?
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-23 11:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stanley
Aldo Minella fingered the Bettinelli Sonata. That such an Segovia
acolyte fingered this music is very interesting. I saw Minnela just
two months ago in May and I meant to ask him about the Sonata and how
he came to it. Unfortunately, the question slipped my mind.This
Sonata seems quite outside Aldo's usual repertoire.
Mark
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
Alain,
Thanks for the link. The performance seems to be very good, to judge by
the sound samples. I wonder if this is one of Angelo's protoges?
No Stanley, the performer is Davide Ficco, not a student of mine, but a
younger and skilled colleague in the years of my teaching in the State
Conservatory.
In lack of an availability by Dallapiccola, I earned to the guitar
repertoire the contribution of Carlo Mosso who, in the following
generation of composers, was for sure an outstanding figure, working in
the line of Dallapiccola. I did not care of the fact his position was
shadowed (he did not follow the Darmstadt mainstream and his music was
considered conservative by the local intelighensia).
During the Seventies, I also earned to the guitar the music of Bruno
Bettinelli and of another dozen of Italian masters. I am especially fond
of a large scale work written for guitar by Wolfango Dalla Vecchia, a
Petrassi student and a renowned organist, who composed a suite entitled
"Variati amorosi momenti". His publisher was a strict friend of a guitar
star, and the manuscript was given to that hero, who couldn't make
anything of it . After years of unfilled promises, the hero condemned the
piece as "unplayable". So, the publisher (Zanibon) was obliged to ask me
whether I could take care of editing the work. I said yes, of course, and
in one week the edition was ready for print. Unfortunately, the Zanibon
firm went to an end, and its catalogue was sold to Ricordi, then BMG, then
Universal, and nowadays the Dalla Vecchia work is practically out of
print. A pity, because it stands among the great pieces o the historical
20th century guitar repertoire...
ag
I have to say I'm looking forward to the Mosso scores. Did you edit the
Bettinelli Sonata? I agree about  the quality of the Dalla Vecchia
Variations - I have your edition of this, and should probably look at it
again. By the way, was it Diaz?
agil
2009-07-23 15:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
I have to say I'm looking forward to the Mosso scores. Did you edit the
Bettinelli Sonata? I agree about the quality of the Dalla Vecchia
Variations - I have your edition of this, and should probably look at it
again. By the way, was it Diaz?
I haver learnt - but only from myself - to be fair even toward people who
were unfair to me.

ag
Stanley Yates
2009-07-23 07:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
Alain,
Thanks for the link. The performance seems to be very good, to judge by
the sound samples. I wonder if this is one of Angelo's protoges?
No Stanley, the performer is Davide Ficco, not a student of mine, but a
younger and skilled colleague in the years of my teaching in the State
Conservatory.
In lack of an availability by Dallapiccola, I earned to the guitar
repertoire the contribution of Carlo Mosso who, in the following
generation of composers, was for sure an outstanding figure, working in
the line of Dallapiccola. I did not care of the fact his position was
shadowed (he did not follow the Darmstadt mainstream and his music was
considered conservative by the local intelighensia).
During the Seventies, I also earned to the guitar the music of Bruno
Bettinelli and of another dozen of Italian masters. I am especially fond
of a large scale work written for guitar by Wolfango Dalla Vecchia, a
Petrassi student and a renowned organist, who composed a suite entitled
"Variati amorosi momenti". His publisher was a strict friend of a guitar
star, and the manuscript was given to that hero, who couldn't make
anything of it . After years of unfilled promises, the hero condemned the
piece as "unplayable". So, the publisher (Zanibon) was obliged to ask me
whether I could take care of editing the work. I said yes, of course, and
in one week the edition was ready for print. Unfortunately, the Zanibon
firm went to an end, and its catalogue was sold to Ricordi, then BMG, then
Universal, and nowadays the Dalla Vecchia work is practically out of
print. A pity, because it stands among the great pieces o the historical
20th century guitar repertoire...
ag
Also, I could never find any information about Dalla Vecchio. So, it's it's
good to know about his teacher. The fact that he was an organist is
interesting and explains the Bach-like textures of some of the variati. Also
shows that someoen who is accustomed to the possibility of ten-finger plus
two-feet harmonies could quite easily write guitar music with single-line
and two-voice texture.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-23 12:20:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi Angelo,

Henze tells a story of young composers in the 1950s that write in the
style of Orff taking the train from Frankfurt to Darmstadt. On the
train, they would write some little 12 tone pieces to show to the
teachers at Darmstadt! Kudos to you and others for being true to
yourself.

Still, I know you recognize that some good music came out of that time
even if the philosophy was heavy handed

I would like to relate to others on the newsgroup that two of the best
concert experiences I ever attended were with music by Darmstadt
composers.Pollini playing Stockhausen's Klavierstuck 10 at Carnagie
Hall for one. He played the piece with such passion that the hall
erupted at the end with an extremely enthusiastic standing ovation the
likes of which you would see at a Paco de Lucia of Pavarotti concert.
Klavierstuck 10 actually came off as a piece right out of the romantic
tradition!

The other was a concert at the Manhattan School of Music with Boulez
conducting "explosante-fixe..." he rehearsed with the students every
day for a week, all day. The electronics from IRCAM were seamlessly
integrated with the acoustic instruments.

The performance was stunning and the piece was astoundingly
beautiful.

Also, Boulez gave composition masterclasses that were the model of
good grace, unlike his reputation as an enfant terrible from the old
days. He tended to teach by asking the student questions, getting to
the students way of thinking. I went to all of the masterclasses.

Also, he was very nice to me. He was patient enough to sit with me and
look at the score of my 3rd sonata ( I paused at the more spectacular
pages). He said I should send him some copies to him personally and he
would farm the score out to Parisian players.
I did send it and received word of the arrival of my scores.

BTW, I view all the 20th century as an extension of the Romantic
tradition that is now in its endgame with, what seems to me, to be the
end of Christendom and the end of western civilization.



Best,
Mark
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
Alain,
Thanks for the link. The performance seems to be very good, to judge by
the sound samples. I wonder if this is one of Angelo's protoges?
No Stanley, the performer is Davide Ficco, not a student of mine, but a
younger and skilled colleague in the years of my teaching in the State
Conservatory.
In lack of an availability by Dallapiccola, I earned to the guitar
repertoire the contribution of Carlo Mosso who, in the following generation
of composers, was for sure an outstanding figure, working in the line of
Dallapiccola. I did not care of the fact his position was shadowed (he did
not follow the Darmstadt mainstream and his music was considered
conservative by the local intelighensia).
During the Seventies, I also earned to the guitar the music of Bruno
Bettinelli and of another dozen of Italian masters. I am especially fond of
a large scale work written for guitar by Wolfango Dalla Vecchia, a Petrassi
student and a renowned organist, who composed a suite entitled "Variati
amorosi momenti". His publisher was a strict friend of a guitar star, and
the manuscript was given to that hero, who couldn't make anything of it .
After years of unfilled promises, the hero condemned the piece as
"unplayable". So, the publisher (Zanibon) was obliged to ask me whether I
could take care of editing the work. I said yes, of course, and in one week
the edition was ready for print. Unfortunately, the Zanibon firm went to an
end, and its catalogue was sold to Ricordi, then BMG, then Universal, and
nowadays the Dalla Vecchia work is practically out of print. A pity, because
it stands among the great pieces o the historical 20th century guitar
repertoire...
ag
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-07-23 14:35:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Angelo,
Henze tells a story of young composers in the 1950s that write in the
style of Orff taking the train from Frankfurt to Darmstadt. On the
train, they would write some little 12 tone pieces to show to the
teachers at Darmstadt! Kudos to you and others for being true to
yourself.
Still, I know you recognize that some good music came out of that time
even if the philosophy was heavy handed
I would like to relate to others on the newsgroup that two of the best
concert experiences I ever attended were with music by Darmstadt
composers.Pollini playing Stockhausen's Klavierstuck 10 at Carnagie
Hall for one. He played the piece with such passion that the hall
erupted at the end with an extremely enthusiastic standing ovation the
likes of which you would see at a Paco de Lucia of Pavarotti concert.
Klavierstuck 10 actually came off as a piece right out of the romantic
tradition!
The other was a concert at the Manhattan School of Music with Boulez
conducting "explosante-fixe..." he rehearsed with the students every
day for a week, all day. The electronics from IRCAM were seamlessly
integrated with the acoustic instruments.
The performance was stunning and the piece was astoundingly
beautiful.
Also, Boulez gave composition masterclasses that were the model of
good grace, unlike his reputation as an enfant terrible from the old
days. He tended to teach by asking the student questions, getting to
the students way of thinking. I went to all of the masterclasses.
Also, he was very nice to me. He was patient enough to sit with me and
look at the score of my 3rd sonata ( I paused at the more spectacular
pages). He said I should send him some copies to him personally and he
would farm the score out to Parisian players.
I did send it and received word of the arrival of my scores.
BTW, I view all the 20th century as an extension of the Romantic
tradition that is now in its endgame with, what seems to me, to be the
end of Christendom and the end of western civilization.
Best,
Mark
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
Alain,
Thanks for the link. The performance seems to be very good, to judge by
the sound samples. I wonder if this is one of Angelo's protoges?
No Stanley, the performer is Davide Ficco, not a student of mine, but a
younger and skilled colleague in the years of my teaching in the State
Conservatory.
In lack of an availability by Dallapiccola, I earned to the guitar
repertoire the contribution of Carlo Mosso who, in the following generation
of composers, was for sure an outstanding figure, working in the line of
Dallapiccola. I did not care of the fact his position was shadowed (he did
not follow the Darmstadt mainstream and his music was considered
conservative by the local intelighensia).
During the Seventies, I also earned to the guitar the music of Bruno
Bettinelli and of another dozen of Italian masters. I am especially fond of
a large scale work written for guitar by Wolfango Dalla Vecchia, a Petrassi
student and a renowned organist, who composed a suite entitled "Variati
amorosi momenti". His publisher was a strict friend of a guitar star, and
the manuscript was given to that hero, who couldn't make anything of it .
After years of unfilled promises, the hero condemned the piece as
"unplayable". So, the publisher (Zanibon) was obliged to ask me whether I
could take care of editing the work. I said yes, of course, and in one week
the edition was ready for print. Unfortunately, the Zanibon firm went to an
end, and its catalogue was sold to Ricordi, then BMG, then Universal, and
nowadays the Dalla Vecchia work is practically out of print. A pity, because
it stands among the great pieces o the historical 20th century guitar
repertoire...
ag
Come to think of it, I've never seen Mark and Jackson together in the
same room...hmmmmm....

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Carlos Barrientos
2009-07-23 16:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Angelo,
Henze tells a story of young composers in the 1950s that write in the
style of Orff taking the train from Frankfurt to Darmstadt. On the
train, they would write some little 12 tone pieces to show to the
teachers at Darmstadt! Kudos to you and others for being true to
yourself.
Still, I know you recognize that some good music came out of that time
even if the philosophy was heavy handed
I would like to relate to others on the newsgroup that two of the best
concert experiences I ever attended were with music by Darmstadt
composers.Pollini playing Stockhausen's Klavierstuck 10 at Carnagie
Hall for one. He played the piece with such passion that the hall
erupted at the end with an extremely enthusiastic standing ovation the
likes of which you would see at a Paco de Lucia of Pavarotti concert.
Klavierstuck 10 actually came off as a piece right out of the romantic
tradition!
The other was a concert at the Manhattan School of Music with Boulez
conducting "explosante-fixe..." he rehearsed with the students every
day for a week, all day. The electronics from IRCAM were seamlessly
integrated with the acoustic instruments.
The performance was stunning and the piece was astoundingly
beautiful.
Also, Boulez gave composition masterclasses that were the model of
good grace, unlike his reputation as an enfant terrible from the old
days. He tended to teach by asking the student questions, getting to
the students way of thinking. I went to all of the masterclasses.
Also, he was very nice to me. He was patient enough to sit with me and
look at the score of my 3rd sonata ( I paused at the more spectacular
pages). He said I should send him some copies to him personally and he
would farm the score out to Parisian players.
I did send it and received word of the arrival of my scores.
BTW, I view all the 20th century as an extension of the Romantic
tradition that is now in its endgame with, what seems to me, to be the
end of Christendom and the end of western civilization.
Best,
Mark
OK... and this end foretells the beginning of what?
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
Alain,
Thanks for the link. The performance seems to be very good, to judge by
the sound samples. I wonder if this is one of Angelo's protoges?
No Stanley, the performer is Davide Ficco, not a student of mine, but a
younger and skilled colleague in the years of my teaching in the State
Conservatory.
In lack of an availability by Dallapiccola, I earned to the guitar
repertoire the contribution of Carlo Mosso who, in the following generation
of composers, was for sure an outstanding figure, working in the line of
Dallapiccola. I did not care of the fact his position was shadowed (he did
not follow the Darmstadt mainstream and his music was considered
conservative by the local intelighensia).
During the Seventies, I also earned to the guitar the music of Bruno
Bettinelli and of another dozen of Italian masters. I am especially fond of
a large scale work written for guitar by Wolfango Dalla Vecchia, a Petrassi
student and a renowned organist, who composed a suite entitled "Variati
amorosi momenti". His publisher was a strict friend of a guitar star, and
the manuscript was given to that hero, who couldn't make anything of it .
After years of unfilled promises, the hero condemned the piece as
"unplayable". So, the publisher (Zanibon) was obliged to ask me whether I
could take care of editing the work. I said yes, of course, and in one week
the edition was ready for print. Unfortunately, the Zanibon firm went to an
end, and its catalogue was sold to Ricordi, then BMG, then Universal, and
nowadays the Dalla Vecchia work is practically out of print. A pity, because
it stands among the great pieces o the historical 20th century guitar
repertoire...
ag
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@gmail.com"
229-594-6374
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-23 16:53:10 UTC
Permalink
I don't know...maybe something like the opening of "2001 a Space
Odyssey"?
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Angelo,
Henze tells a story of young composers in the 1950s that write in the
style of Orff taking the train from Frankfurt to Darmstadt. On the
train, they would write some little 12 tone pieces to show to the
teachers at Darmstadt!  Kudos to you and others for being true to
yourself.
Still, I know you recognize that some good music came out of that time
even if the philosophy was heavy handed
I would like to relate to others on the newsgroup that two of the best
concert experiences I ever attended were with music by Darmstadt
composers.Pollini playing Stockhausen's Klavierstuck 10 at Carnagie
Hall for one. He played the piece with such passion that the hall
erupted at the end with an extremely enthusiastic standing ovation the
likes of which you would see at a Paco de Lucia of Pavarotti concert.
Klavierstuck 10 actually came off as a piece right out of the romantic
tradition!
The other was a concert at the Manhattan School of Music with Boulez
conducting  "explosante-fixe..." he rehearsed with the students every
day for a week, all day. The electronics from IRCAM were seamlessly
integrated with the acoustic instruments.
The performance was stunning and the piece was astoundingly
beautiful.
Also, Boulez gave composition masterclasses that were the model of
good grace, unlike his reputation as an enfant terrible from the old
days. He tended to teach by asking the student questions, getting to
the students way of thinking. I went to all of the masterclasses.
Also, he was very nice to me. He was patient enough to sit with me and
look at the score of my 3rd sonata ( I paused at the more spectacular
pages). He said I should send him some copies to him personally and he
would farm the score out to Parisian players.
I did send it and received word of the arrival of my scores.
BTW, I view all the 20th century as an extension of the Romantic
tradition that is now in its endgame with, what seems to me, to be the
end of Christendom and the end of western civilization.
Best,
Mark
OK... and this end foretells the beginning of what?
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by agil
Post by Stanley Yates
Alain,
Thanks for the link. The performance seems to be very good, to judge by
the sound samples. I wonder if this is one of Angelo's protoges?
No Stanley, the performer is Davide Ficco, not a student of mine, but a
younger and skilled colleague in the years of my teaching in the State
Conservatory.
In lack of an availability by Dallapiccola, I earned to the guitar
repertoire the contribution of Carlo Mosso who, in the following generation
of composers, was for sure an outstanding figure, working in the line of
Dallapiccola. I did not care of the fact his position was shadowed (he did
not follow the Darmstadt mainstream and his music was considered
conservative by the local intelighensia).
During the Seventies, I also earned to the guitar the music of Bruno
Bettinelli and of another dozen of Italian masters. I am especially fond of
a large scale work written for guitar by Wolfango Dalla Vecchia, a Petrassi
student and a renowned organist, who composed a suite entitled "Variati
amorosi momenti". His publisher was a strict friend of a guitar star, and
the manuscript was given to that hero, who couldn't make anything of it .
After years of unfilled promises, the hero condemned the piece as
"unplayable". So, the publisher (Zanibon) was obliged to ask me whether I
could take care of editing the work. I said yes, of course, and in one week
the edition was ready for print. Unfortunately, the Zanibon firm went to an
end, and its catalogue was sold to Ricordi, then BMG, then Universal, and
nowadays the Dalla Vecchia work is practically out of print. A pity, because
it stands among the great pieces o the historical 20th century guitar
repertoire...
ag
--
Carlos Barrientos
229-594-6374
Carlos Barrientos
2009-07-23 20:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I don't know...maybe something like the opening of "2001 a Space
Odyssey"?
I was 13 and my Uncle took me to see that wonderful film... and I had to
know who Gyorgy Ligeti was after that!...
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@gmail.com"
Phone: (229) 594-6374
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-23 20:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Actually, I think in the future humans will be genetically engineered
by those that can afford it to have superior intelligence and physical
capabilities. Seriously, if the technology is there ,which it will be,
and there is freedom of choice, it cannot be stopped.

This will result in a master race

The preschoolers of these future genetically engineered people will
have superior whistling abilities.They will whistle Webern in the
playground while they play chess
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I don't know...maybe something like the opening of "2001 a Space
Odyssey"?
I was 13 and my Uncle took me to see that wonderful film... and I had to
know who Gyorgy Ligeti was after that!...
--
Carlos Barrientos
Phone: (229) 594-6374
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 11:37:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stanley,
I have not played the Boulez piece, Le Marteau and I don't think I
ever will! The door has shut on such an endeavor as it would take too
much rehearsal time.
The newest recording with Boulez conducting on DG's 20/21 label is
spectacular. Very clear and beautiful sound. S
I don't know any of the music by ApIvor except the Spanish songs a
little bit. He is one of the composers I have not got around
to,despite his excellent reputation and interesting bio.
I have come to lke the Bennett Sonata... Somehow the opening reminds
me of John Coltrain or Eric Dolphy, at least the way Bream plays
it...
that
man with the blue guitar who does not play things as they are.
Post by Stanley Yates
H Mark,
There are a few European serial pieces I used to play that no one seems to
bother with anymore: Apostel Musiken, Krenek Suite, ApIvor Suite, even the
Bennett Impromptus. It's a pity that Dallapiccola didn't write anything for
guitar. I think the style he used for pieces such as  the Notebook for
Annalibera would have been good for guitar. I know it's not fashionable, but
I do like Stravinsky's serial music. I once played the mandolin part in
Agon. Did you ever play the Boulez piece?
http://youtu.be/DhKWTVTl5Y4
Interesting comments about the Berg Sonata later in the interview
On Jul 21, 1:46 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I love that book of Stevens!
I read referred to it so many times that it eventually just fell
apart!
Steve, you might like this discussion between Glen Gould and Yehudi
Menuhin about the Schoenberg Fantasy
http://youtu.be/av2XTNgA72w
Isn't Menuhin elegant?
Mark
Well, certainly. Fascinating. I certainly don't associate either man
particularly with Schoenberg. And at the risk of getting someone angry,
Menuhin is particularly elegant next to the skulking, crab-like Gould.
They are more equal partners in elegance in the actual video of the
Fantasy. Of course this was before Menuhin went for the floral print
shirts and tried to keep up with Stephane Grappelli ;-)
I figure this must have been done for television--I'm guessing early
1960s? How often do we see two titans like these actually talking about
music on television?
Many thanks for the link--terrific!
Steve
Post by f***@yahoo.com
On Jul 21, 12:24 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matt,
I seem to remember that it was Webern that said children would be
whistling 12 tone tunes.Same idea...
Here is a link to a piece for children written by Webern in 1924. This
youtube link shows the score, too.
http://youtu.be/9umvR9_3peQ
One of the funniest remarks of Schoenberg's technique is in Bartok's
violin concerto. After a series of 12 notes is stated in the violin, a
"row", Bartok has the brasses give a good old "Bronx Cheer".
That's terrific! I've just started reading Halsey Stevens's " The Life
and Music of Bela Bartok".
S.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I think 12 tone technique is extremely flexible. In fact, one if my
favorite pieces of all time is 12 tone: "Piccola Musica
Notturna" (1954)of Dallapiccola. It is a little gem!
Mark
Post by Matt Faunce
Actually I would be. I've been trying to make sense of the Second
Viennese School, and I need all the help I can get!
Steve
My music theory teacher told our class the composers from the Second
Viennese School thought Twelve Tone Music was so mathematically
beautiful that it will, no doubt, come very naturally to people. In
fact one day and soon, they thought, you will hear the milk man
whistling Twelve Tone melodies as he works. I wrote two simple pieces
imagining what the milk man might whistle. I just recorded them and
http://www.youtube.com/matthewjohnfaunce
Maybe these simple pieces might make for a good introduction.
Matt
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Matt Faunce
2009-07-21 19:29:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
http://youtu.be/av2XTNgA72w
Isn't Menuhin elegant?
Hi Mark. Yes, I like his attitude. And wow, what great playing from
someone who says he doesn't understand it so well. Maybe he
understands it more than he knows.

How does Schoenberg compare with Kandinsky, in light of "clearing the
plate"? Is he also a
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I think 12 tone technique is extremely flexible.
Menuhin said about the Fantasy "they are dictated more by the series
of notes than for the instument for which it was written." Maybe, but
I agree with you, Mark, that Twelve Tone is flexible. It can be very
much dictated by pure sound. I believe the theory came about after
composers found themselves composing music by ear and using 9, 10 or
even 11 different notes in a row to get a certain sound, and thought,
"what if I extend this idea." I think Schoenberg turned in his grave
when Gould, at 1:05, used the words "odd, arbitrary." On Twelve Tone's
flexibility, it doesn't have to be atonal either (whatever that
means), you can work it to have clear tonalities that shift. (Haha,
maybe that is exactly what atonality means, "shifting tonalities.")

Menuhin: "disrupt our known crutches" "cleared the board, which had to
happen at the end of the romantic period" A comparison of Schoenberg's
music and Kandinsky's paintings would be interesting.

Matt
Matt Faunce
2009-07-21 21:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Faunce
I believe the theory came about after
composers found themselves composing music by ear and using 9, 10 or
even 11 different notes in a row to get a certain sound, and thought,
"what if I extend this idea."
What happens with me from row to row is I can get 10 inspired notes
with 2 left over as waste products; 9 inspired with the 3 at the end
as waste, etc.

Sometimes I think Twelve Tone composers covered up their waste by
uglifying the beginnings of each row. However, I've never tried to
master the medium, so I have to admit my nearsightedness here.

Matt
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-21 22:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Matt,

You might be interested in studying Stravinsky's use of serialism.
Stravinsky wrote with rows of less than 12 notes such as in "Tomorrow
Shall be my Dancing Day" from the Cantata.

Webern, Schoenberg and Berg had particular tastes for their choice of
rows.

Webern liked rows that broke down into small groups of 3 or 4 notes
where one segment would be the inversion, retrograde and or
retrograde inversion of the other.

Schoenberg liked combinatorial rows. That is, rows that when
transposed , the second hexachord duplicated the pitch classes of the
first hexachord of the original

So in a sense, they are working with rows of less than 12 notes.

Berg liked rows that had tonal elements.

I don't write serial music but my first teacher was a student of Roger
Sessions. i studied with him once a week when I was in high school in
the 1970s. His method used the Bach Chorals for harmony and serialism
for counterpoint. The counterpoint started with the Krenek style and
progressed to intergral serialism. I have lots of music from the time
in my closet for all sorts of instruments written using intergral
serialism It is all very bad!
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Matt Faunce
I believe the theory came about after
composers found themselves composing music by ear and using 9, 10 or
even 11 different notes in a row to get a certain sound, and thought,
"what if I extend this idea."
What happens with me from row to row is I can get 10 inspired notes
with 2 left over as waste products; 9 inspired with the 3 at the end
as waste, etc.
Sometimes I think Twelve Tone composers covered up their waste by
uglifying the beginnings of each row. However, I've never tried to
master the medium, so I have to admit my nearsightedness here.
Matt
Matt Faunce
2009-07-21 23:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
So in a sense, they are working with rows of less than 12 notes.
OK. I was biting off more than I could chew. The idea of groupings,
which you laid out, makes sense. I think they might be easier to
manage.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Berg liked rows that had tonal elements.
I also suppose that with time, years I suppose, one could grow to
handle all twelve notes.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I have lots of music from the time
in my closet for all sorts of instruments written using intergral
serialism It is all very bad!
Haha. I forgot what integral serialism was so I had to look it up.
Yikes! That stuff is pretty severe! ... I remember learning "set
theory analysis," with its "pitch classes." I wasn't enthused with
that.

Mark, do you reject any of these ideas, or do you, like Menuhin, admit
there is a perspective to any of these that can be legitimate, or do
you clearly see their legitimacy?

Matt
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 00:47:19 UTC
Permalink
Hi Matt,

I clearly see the legitimacy of serialism. Too many great
personalities created very fine works to dismiss the technique
completely.
As you know, serialism can be tonal and accessible. It is not any more
restrictive than writing a fugue, a canon or a sonata using the
diatonic system.

Some of my favorite pieces are serial:
"Agon" by Stravinsky, the "eight preludes" for piano by Frank Martin,
"Piccola Musica Notturna" by Dallapiccola.
I love playing "Romeo and Juliet" from the Royal Winter Music of
Henze. I also like Hans Eisler's Piano Sonata op. 1. It has much
humor!
I agree that Schoenberg can be rough on the ears.
I also agree with Angelo that there were great negative effects. For
example, on the pre-war non-serial composers. I think the worst of
the serialist followers created an exclusionist cabal and many fine
tonal composers lost ground.
Mark
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by f***@yahoo.com
So in a sense, they are working with rows of less than 12 notes.
OK. I was biting off more than I could chew. The idea of groupings,
which you laid out, makes sense. I think they might be easier to
manage.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Berg liked rows that had tonal elements.
I also suppose that with time, years I suppose, one could grow to
handle all twelve notes.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I have lots of music from the time
in my closet for all sorts of instruments written using intergral
serialism It is all very bad!
Haha. I forgot what integral serialism was so I had to look it up.
Yikes! That stuff is pretty severe! ... I remember learning "set
theory analysis," with its "pitch classes." I wasn't enthused with
that.
Mark, do you reject any of these ideas, or do you, like Menuhin, admit
there is a perspective to any of these that can be legitimate, or do
you clearly see their legitimacy?
Matt
Tommy Grand
2009-07-22 00:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matt,
I clearly see the legitimacy of serialism. Too many great
personalities created very fine works to dismiss the technique
completely.
Mark, kindly list some musical techniques which you do find
illegitimate.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 01:00:38 UTC
Permalink
here's one:

Finding a pleasant sounding scordatura and sliding a finger around the
fretboard in a pleasant modal pattern and giving what comes out an
exotic, politically correct title.
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matt,
I clearly see the legitimacy of serialism. Too many great
personalities created very fine works to dismiss the technique
completely.
Mark, kindly list some musical techniques which you do find
illegitimate.
Tommy Grand
2009-07-22 01:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Finding a pleasant sounding scordatura and sliding a finger around the
fretboard in a pleasant modal pattern and giving what comes out an
exotic, politically correct title.
No slide blues for you then.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 01:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Finding a pleasant sounding scordatura and sliding a finger around the
fretboard in a pleasant modal pattern and giving what comes out an
exotic, politically correct title.
No slide blues for you then.
Not If it has an exotic, politically correct title!
Steven Bornfeld
2009-07-22 03:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Finding a pleasant sounding scordatura and sliding a finger around the
fretboard in a pleasant modal pattern and giving what comes out an
exotic, politically correct title.
...and yet sounds strangely lucrative...

S.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Matt,
I clearly see the legitimacy of serialism. Too many great
personalities created very fine works to dismiss the technique
completely.
Mark, kindly list some musical techniques which you do find
illegitimate.
Slogoin
2009-07-21 23:38:28 UTC
Permalink
intergral serialism.  I have lots of music from the time
in my closet for all sorts of instruments written using intergral
serialism It is all very bad!
Integral serialism?
Tommy Grand
2009-07-21 23:45:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
 intergral serialism.  I have lots of music from the time
in my closet for all sorts of instruments written using intergral
serialism It is all very bad!
Integral serialism?
He means total serialism. Boulez and all that stupid bullshit.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-07-21 22:16:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Matt Faunce
I believe the theory came about after
composers found themselves composing music by ear and using 9, 10 or
even 11 different notes in a row to get a certain sound, and thought,
"what if I extend this idea."
What happens with me from row to row is I can get 10 inspired notes
with 2 left over as waste products; 9 inspired with the 3 at the end
as waste, etc.
Sometimes I think Twelve Tone composers covered up their waste by
uglifying the beginnings of each row. However, I've never tried to
master the medium, so I have to admit my nearsightedness here.
Matt
It's still seems a strangely restrictive concept to me for something
that's supposed to be liberating.

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Matt Faunce
2009-07-21 23:48:36 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 21, 6:16 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
        It's still seems a strangely restrictive concept to me for something
that's supposed to be liberating.
I think the idea is that restrictions can be liberating, while
complete freedom can be too much wilderness to work with. You can't
control everything. You need to choose what you are going to control
by delineating it from what you aren't going to control. If done well,
you'll get the illusion of complete liberation. Compare with composing
in strictly A major--no stepping out. This was the restriction I used
when composing my Spring Prelude, on youtube. I decided to create
interest by varying the length of each phrase. Then again, most
composers subconsciously default into certain restrictions, like same
phrase lengths, uniform tonality, etc. By studying integral serialism
you realize the usual default restrictions. There is nothing wrong
with subconscious default restrictions either.

Matt

Matt
Steven Bornfeld
2009-07-22 03:52:07 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 21, 6:16 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
It's still seems a strangely restrictive concept to me for something
that's supposed to be liberating.
I think the idea is that restrictions can be liberating, while
complete freedom can be too much wilderness to work with. You can't
control everything. You need to choose what you are going to control
by delineating it from what you aren't going to control. If done well,
you'll get the illusion of complete liberation. Compare with composing
in strictly A major--no stepping out. This was the restriction I used
when composing my Spring Prelude, on youtube. I decided to create
interest by varying the length of each phrase. Then again, most
composers subconsciously default into certain restrictions, like same
phrase lengths, uniform tonality, etc. By studying integral serialism
you realize the usual default restrictions. There is nothing wrong
with subconscious default restrictions either.
Matt
Matt
I think I understand the concept. Of course I can be a genius from the
perspective of almost 100 years now and say it doesn't look like the
majority of composers agree. ;-)

Steve
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-21 14:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Steve,

This wonderful presentation of Bach will give you an idea of the
practices of Webern:

http://strangepaths.com/canon-1-a-2/2009/01/18/en/

Mark
Post by Steven Bornfeld
http://www.chanterelle.com/shop/chanterelle/index.php?page=detail&mat...
Thanks!
And I just found this, although I think few would be interested as it
related to but a few pieces in the guitar rep.
http://pages.pomona.edu/~awc04747/AMS96/ams96.html
        Actually I would be.  I've been trying to make sense of the Second
Viennese School, and I need all the help I can get!
Steve
Steve Bosell
2009-07-21 02:20:34 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 20, 5:29 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Yes, but the sound and approach of the Kolisch Quartet reminds me of
the intensity of Llobett playing his folksong arrangements and
Albeniz's "Evocacion"
Are these recordings available?
Steve
  or Segovia playing Bach in his early EMI
Post by f***@yahoo.com
recordings. I can imagine Krenek's Suite or Martin's Quatre Pieces and
Strasfogel's Triptych with the sound and expression of pre-WW2
performance practice.
For example, I think Pollini plays Schoenberg more from the
perspective of Boulez than of Brahms  I hope to find the  Eduard
Steuermann's recording of Schoenberg soon and hear an approach closer
to the Viennese.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hearing this superb performance of the Kolisch Quartet of Schoenberg
from 1937 makes you wonder how a Llobett, Luise Walker or  Segovia
would have played music in this style.
http://youtu.be/cSTZYSWBXYY
Llobet and Segovia were culturally very distant from  the Wien school, but
if we can spend (as a joke) a guess, I would dare to say that the author or
that area they (Llobet and Segovia) could have approached more
confidentially, would have been Alban Berg. Actually, in Berg's music there
is almost always a lyricism which could have offered a chance to the sort of
expression which the two great Spanish guitarists were looking for. As for
Schoenberg, I could see Llobet playing an imaginary part in a work like
"Verlachte Nacht", the post-Brahms Schoenberg, but I could hardly imagine
Llobet - or Segovia - playing the guitar part of the "Serenade".
Luise Walker was a refined and skilled guitarist, and she was a Wiener
citizen, so she might have known very well those masters and their works,
but in all her recordings - which I have listened to with a great respect -
I never saw the slightest sign of an interest for non tonal music. She
performed and recorded Santorsola's Concertino for guitar and orchestra, but
it was the first epoque, tonally based Santorsola's style, not the 12tone
Santorsola later style.
ag
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
All 3 guitarists have recordings reissued on these CDs:
http://www.doremi.com/segovia.html
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2009-07-21 16:15:44 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 20, 5:29 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Yes, but the sound and approach of the Kolisch Quartet reminds me of
the intensity of Llobett playing his folksong arrangements and
Albeniz's "Evocacion"
Are these recordings available?
Steve
or Segovia playing Bach in his early EMI
Post by f***@yahoo.com
recordings. I can imagine Krenek's Suite or Martin's Quatre Pieces and
Strasfogel's Triptych with the sound and expression of pre-WW2
performance practice.
For example, I think Pollini plays Schoenberg more from the
perspective of Boulez than of Brahms I hope to find the Eduard
Steuermann's recording of Schoenberg soon and hear an approach closer
to the Viennese.
Post by agil
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hearing this superb performance of the Kolisch Quartet of Schoenberg
from 1937 makes you wonder how a Llobett, Luise Walker or Segovia
would have played music in this style.
http://youtu.be/cSTZYSWBXYY
Llobet and Segovia were culturally very distant from the Wien school, but
if we can spend (as a joke) a guess, I would dare to say that the author or
that area they (Llobet and Segovia) could have approached more
confidentially, would have been Alban Berg. Actually, in Berg's music there
is almost always a lyricism which could have offered a chance to the sort of
expression which the two great Spanish guitarists were looking for. As for
Schoenberg, I could see Llobet playing an imaginary part in a work like
"Verlachte Nacht", the post-Brahms Schoenberg, but I could hardly imagine
Llobet - or Segovia - playing the guitar part of the "Serenade".
Luise Walker was a refined and skilled guitarist, and she was a Wiener
citizen, so she might have known very well those masters and their works,
but in all her recordings - which I have listened to with a great respect -
I never saw the slightest sign of an interest for non tonal music. She
performed and recorded Santorsola's Concertino for guitar and orchestra, but
it was the first epoque, tonally based Santorsola's style, not the 12tone
Santorsola later style.
ag
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.doremi.com/segovia.html
Thanks for reminding me about this series. I have only 1--the volume
with Luisa Walker. Some of the cuts have rather strange equalization
IIRC. How is the sound in the cds you have?

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Steve Bosell
2009-07-21 20:34:47 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 21, 9:15 am, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
On Jul 20, 5:29 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Yes, but the sound and approach of the Kolisch Quartet reminds me of
the intensity of Llobett playing his folksong arrangements and
Albeniz's "Evocacion"
Are these recordings available?
Steve
  or Segovia playing Bach in his early EMI
Post by f***@yahoo.com
recordings. I can imagine Krenek's Suite or Martin's Quatre Pieces and
Strasfogel's Triptych with the sound and expression of pre-WW2
performance practice.
For example, I think Pollini plays Schoenberg more from the
perspective of Boulez than of Brahms  I hope to find the  Eduard
Steuermann's recording of Schoenberg soon and hear an approach closer
to the Viennese.
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hearing this superb performance of the Kolisch Quartet of Schoenberg
from 1937 makes you wonder how a Llobett, Luise Walker or  Segovia
would have played music in this style.
http://youtu.be/cSTZYSWBXYY
Llobet and Segovia were culturally very distant from  the Wien school, but
if we can spend (as a joke) a guess, I would dare to say that the author or
that area they (Llobet and Segovia) could have approached more
confidentially, would have been Alban Berg. Actually, in Berg's music there
is almost always a lyricism which could have offered a chance to the sort of
expression which the two great Spanish guitarists were looking for. As for
Schoenberg, I could see Llobet playing an imaginary part in a work like
"Verlachte Nacht", the post-Brahms Schoenberg, but I could hardly imagine
Llobet - or Segovia - playing the guitar part of the "Serenade".
Luise Walker was a refined and skilled guitarist, and she was a Wiener
citizen, so she might have known very well those masters and their works,
but in all her recordings - which I have listened to with a great respect -
I never saw the slightest sign of an interest for non tonal music. She
performed and recorded Santorsola's Concertino for guitar and orchestra, but
it was the first epoque, tonally based Santorsola's style, not the 12tone
Santorsola later style.
ag
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.doremi.com/segovia.html
        Thanks for reminding me about this series.  I have only 1--the volume
with Luisa Walker.  Some of the cuts have rather strange equalization
IIRC.  How is the sound in the cds you have?
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
I have the whole series. The recording quality varies from track to
track, but are all quite listenable if you are used to listening to
LPs.
agil
2009-07-21 06:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Yes, but the sound and approach of the Kolisch Quartet reminds me of
the intensity of Llobett playing his folksong arrangements and
Albeniz's "Evocacion" or Segovia playing Bach in his early EMI
recordings. I can imagine Krenek's Suite or Martin's Quatre Pieces and
Strasfogel's Triptych with the sound and expression of pre-WW2
performance practice.
For example, I think Pollini plays Schoenberg more from the
perspective of Boulez than of Brahms I hope to find the Eduard
Steuermann's recording of Schoenberg soon and hear an approach closer
to the Viennese.
Schoenberg always claimed the expression being the main purpose (and one
could add: power) of his music, and it's enough to listen to a few measures
of no matter which work by Berg to recognize his lyricism.
So, I cannot see a reason why the works of these masters should be played
without a strong expressive purpose. The discontinuity between Brahms and
Berg stands only in the mind of awkward critics and half deaf listeners.

The former interpreters of these works were certainly imbued of such an
inspiration.

It is significant that, in the first after-war years, the young composers of
the Darmstadt school felt a need to refuse Schoenberg and Berg, and
recognized only the music of Anton Webern, taking his work as a reference
starting point for their integral serialism. Pollini is culturally a son of
the Darmstadt philosophy, and of T. Adorno, and he read Schoenberg from the
viewpoint of a post-webernian aesthetic.

I believe that such a philosophy produced a big damage to the music and to
the culture.

As for Llobet and Segovia, the intensity of their playing was too narrow a
factor to make them fully understanding Schoenberg and Berg: their works
were far too elaborated for the guitarists of that epoque - and the
ice-silence opposed by Segovia to Frank Martin with regard to the "Quatre
Pièces Brèves" fades out any possible speculation.

ag
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-21 12:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Angelo,

I agree with you on most everything here. Except I think Llobett and
even Segovia were not very far from Berg and early Schoenberg.
Somehow, I think Llobet was closer but I tend to idealize Llobet.

Some of Llobet's late compositions and a few of Segovia's "Anecdotes"
seem to me to approach the harmonic practice of Richard Strauss.

Of course this is only intuition and I could be dreaming...

But I think this dream could have good results: to imagine Llobet
playing Gunther Schuller or Bruno Bettinelli... ahh,nice!
Post by agil
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Yes, but the sound and approach of the Kolisch Quartet reminds me of
the intensity of Llobett playing his folksong arrangements and
Albeniz's "Evocacion" or Segovia playing Bach in his early EMI
recordings. I can imagine Krenek's Suite or Martin's Quatre Pieces and
Strasfogel's Triptych with the sound and expression of pre-WW2
performance practice.
For example, I think Pollini plays Schoenberg more from the
perspective of Boulez than of Brahms  I hope to find the  Eduard
Steuermann's recording of Schoenberg soon and hear an approach closer
to the Viennese.
Schoenberg always claimed the expression being the main purpose (and one
could add: power) of his music, and it's enough to listen to a few measures
of no matter which work by Berg to recognize his lyricism.
So, I cannot see a reason why the works of these masters should be played
without a strong expressive purpose. The discontinuity between Brahms and
Berg stands only in the mind of awkward critics and half deaf listeners.
The former interpreters of these works were certainly imbued of such an
inspiration.
It is significant that, in the first after-war years, the young composers of
the Darmstadt school felt a need to refuse Schoenberg and Berg, and
recognized only the music of Anton Webern, taking his work as a reference
starting point for their integral serialism. Pollini is culturally a son of
the Darmstadt philosophy, and of T. Adorno, and he read Schoenberg from the
viewpoint of a post-webernian aesthetic.
I believe that such a philosophy produced a big damage to the music and to
the culture.
As for Llobet and Segovia, the intensity of their playing was too narrow a
factor to make them fully understanding Schoenberg and Berg: their works
were far too elaborated for the guitarists of that epoque - and the
ice-silence opposed by Segovia to Frank Martin with regard to the "Quatre
Pièces Brèves" fades out any possible speculation.
ag
agil
2009-07-21 06:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by agil
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hearing this superb performance of the Kolisch Quartet of Schoenberg
from 1937 makes you wonder how a Llobett, Luise Walker or Segovia
would have played music in this style.
http://youtu.be/cSTZYSWBXYY
Llobet and Segovia were culturally very distant from the Wien school, but
if we can spend (as a joke) a guess, I would dare to say that the author
or that area they (Llobet and Segovia) could have approached more
confidentially, would have been Alban Berg. Actually, in Berg's music
there is almost always a lyricism which could have offered a chance to the
sort of expression which the two great Spanish guitarists were looking
for. As for Schoenberg, I could see Llobet playing an imaginary part in a
work like "Verlachte Nacht", the post-Brahms Schoenberg, but I could
hardly imagine Llobet - or Segovia - playing the guitar part of the
"Serenade".
Luise Walker was a refined and skilled guitarist, and she was a Wiener
citizen, so she might have known very well those masters and their works,
but in all her recordings - which I have listened to with a great
respect - I never saw the slightest sign of an interest for non tonal
music. She performed and recorded Santorsola's Concertino for guitar and
orchestra, but it was the first epoque, tonally based Santorsola's style,
not the 12tone Santorsola later style.
ag
My friend Friedrich Fischer, a distinguished guitarist and an ex-professor
at Klagenfurt Conservatory, has kindly corrected a wrong spelling of mine:

Verlachte Nacht = Laugh at the night

Verklärte Nacht = Resplendent Night


The correct spelling is the second one.

Grazie Federico!

ag
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-21 12:21:12 UTC
Permalink
Angelo,

Is this a Freudian slip?

: )

Mark
Post by agil
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hearing this superb performance of the Kolisch Quartet of Schoenberg
from 1937 makes you wonder how a Llobett, Luise Walker or  Segovia
would have played music in this style.
http://youtu.be/cSTZYSWBXYY
Llobet and Segovia were culturally very distant from  the Wien school, but
if we can spend (as a joke) a guess, I would dare to say that the author
or that area they (Llobet and Segovia) could have approached more
confidentially, would have been Alban Berg. Actually, in Berg's music
there is almost always a lyricism which could have offered a chance to the
sort of expression which the two great Spanish guitarists were looking
for. As for Schoenberg, I could see Llobet playing an imaginary part in a
work like "Verlachte Nacht", the post-Brahms Schoenberg, but I could
hardly imagine Llobet - or Segovia - playing the guitar part of the
"Serenade".
Luise Walker was a refined and skilled guitarist, and she was a Wiener
citizen, so she might have known very well those masters and their works,
but in all her recordings - which I have listened to with a great
respect - I never saw the slightest sign of an interest for non tonal
music. She performed and recorded Santorsola's Concertino for guitar and
orchestra, but it was the first epoque, tonally based Santorsola's style,
not the 12tone Santorsola later style.
ag
My friend Friedrich Fischer, a distinguished guitarist and an ex-professor
Verlachte Nacht = Laugh at the night
Verklärte Nacht = Resplendent Night
The correct spelling is the second one.
Grazie Federico!
ag
agil
2009-07-21 15:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Angelo,
Is this a Freudian slip?
: )
Mark
No, just my sheer ignorance of the German language - it's a shame, but from
Goethe to Mann, from Schiller to Musil - including my favourite German
writer, Ernst Wiechert, I read German literature in Italian translations...

ag
Fugue
2009-07-21 15:59:44 UTC
Permalink
It's a pity that none of the Second Viennese School composers wrote
for the guitar,
as that style seems to work well on the guitar. Jorge Caballero has a
very good,
if barely playable, version of Berg's Piano Sonata, and Phillip Hii
has successfully
transcribed Webern's Piano Variations.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-21 16:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fugue
for the guitar,
as that style seems to work well on the guitar. Jorge Caballero has a
very good,
if barely playable, version of Berg's Piano Sonata, and Phillip Hii
has successfully
transcribed Webern's Piano Variations.
Of course you mean solo guitar.

After hearing Bartok's 4th quartet, Webern complained that Bartok was
too dissonant.
Yet, Webern's most dense piece, op. 18, contains an expertly written
guitar part!

Mark
arys
2009-07-22 23:11:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fugue
for the guitar,
as that style seems to work well on the guitar. Jorge Caballero has a
very good,
if barely playable, version of Berg's Piano Sonata, and Phillip Hii
has successfully
transcribed Webern's Piano Variations.
Do you know if either one has been published?

-Matti Karjalainen
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-23 00:45:40 UTC
Permalink
You know, Universal pupblished an edition of Schoenberg's op. 19 made
by Siegfried Behrend so I suppose they would not adverse to
publishing the above mentioned works of Berg and Webern.

I can see the value of these as hausmusik.

I am sorry to be a party pooper, but I can't imagine the
painstakingly wrought canons in the Webern Variations not being upset
by being placed on the guitar. Similarly, the intensity and extensity
of space utilized by Berg for climaxes and their relief would also be
altered and distorted, among other things,no? Doesn't mean it would be
nice to read through. But sometimes when I read through transcriptions
Bach inventions and the like on the guitar, I feel so cheated by the
distortions of the simple imitative counterpoint that has to be done
to make it work that I have to take a shower.
Mark
Post by arys
Post by Fugue
for the guitar,
as that style seems to work well on the guitar. Jorge Caballero has a
very good,
if barely playable, version of Berg's Piano Sonata, and Phillip Hii
has successfully
transcribed Webern's Piano Variations.
Do you know if either one has been published?
-Matti Karjalainen
Carlos Barrientos
2009-07-23 01:01:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
You know, Universal pupblished an edition of Schoenberg's op. 19 made
by Siegfried Behrend so I suppose they would not adverse to
publishing the above mentioned works of Berg and Webern.
I can see the value of these as hausmusik.
I am sorry to be a party pooper, but I can't imagine the
painstakingly wrought canons in the Webern Variations not being upset
by being placed on the guitar. Similarly, the intensity and extensity
of space utilized by Berg for climaxes and their relief would also be
altered and distorted, among other things,no? Doesn't mean it would be
nice to read through. But sometimes when I read through transcriptions
Bach inventions and the like on the guitar, I feel so cheated by the
distortions of the simple imitative counterpoint that has to be done
to make it work that I have to take a shower.
Mark
(The Beatles in HELP) "He's a very Clean old man..."
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by arys
Post by Fugue
for the guitar,
as that style seems to work well on the guitar. Jorge Caballero has a
very good,
if barely playable, version of Berg's Piano Sonata, and Phillip Hii
has successfully
transcribed Webern's Piano Variations.
Do you know if either one has been published?
-Matti Karjalainen
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@gmail.com"
Phone: (229) 594-6374
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-23 01:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Carlos,


Your allusion to this film is actually very complex...

Mark
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by f***@yahoo.com
You know, Universal pupblished an edition of Schoenberg's op. 19 made
by Siegfried Behrend  so I suppose they would not adverse to
publishing the above mentioned works of Berg and Webern.
I can see the value of these as hausmusik.
 I am sorry to be a party pooper, but I can't imagine the
painstakingly wrought canons in the Webern Variations not being upset
by being placed on the guitar. Similarly, the intensity and extensity
of space utilized by Berg for climaxes and their relief would also be
altered and distorted, among other things,no? Doesn't mean it would be
nice to read through. But sometimes when I read through transcriptions
Bach inventions and the like on the guitar, I feel so cheated by the
distortions of the simple imitative counterpoint that has to be done
to make it work that I have to take a shower.
Mark
(The Beatles in HELP) "He's a very Clean old man..."
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by arys
Post by Fugue
for the guitar,
as that style seems to work well on the guitar. Jorge Caballero has a
very good,
if barely playable, version of Berg's Piano Sonata, and Phillip Hii
has successfully
transcribed Webern's Piano Variations.
Do you know if either one has been published?
-Matti Karjalainen
--
Carlos Barrientos
Phone: (229) 594-6374
Carlos Barrientos
2009-07-23 02:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Carlos,
Your allusion to this film is actually very complex...
Mark
Thanx, Mark.

I thought your fine mind would see the layers... the music before and
after the scene, the allusion to "mean mr. mustard" , etc...

Just a smile between composers...

C
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by f***@yahoo.com
You know, Universal pupblished an edition of Schoenberg's op. 19 made
by Siegfried Behrend so I suppose they would not adverse to
publishing the above mentioned works of Berg and Webern.
I can see the value of these as hausmusik.
I am sorry to be a party pooper, but I can't imagine the
painstakingly wrought canons in the Webern Variations not being upset
by being placed on the guitar. Similarly, the intensity and extensity
of space utilized by Berg for climaxes and their relief would also be
altered and distorted, among other things,no? Doesn't mean it would be
nice to read through. But sometimes when I read through transcriptions
Bach inventions and the like on the guitar, I feel so cheated by the
distortions of the simple imitative counterpoint that has to be done
to make it work that I have to take a shower.
Mark
(The Beatles in HELP) "He's a very Clean old man..."
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@gmail.com"
Phone: (229) 594-6374
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-23 01:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
sometimes when I read through transcriptions
Bach inventions and the like on the guitar, I feel so cheated by the
distortions of the simple imitative counterpoint that has to be done
to make it work that I have to take a shower.
For this one, you will need more than a shower. A week in Finnish
sauna perhaps. Here is what I have in mind: one of the first things I
am going to do when I get home, is announce the Editions Orphee 2009
transcription competition. I don't mind jumping the horses a bit
sooner. Before I even begin, let me assure you, and anyone else who
might be tempted, that there are no money prizes. The best the winner
could expect, if there is a winner, is that his/her transcription will
be published. Here is the deal:

In his guitar method, Sor goes into quite some detail into the
relationship between an orchestral score and a piano reduction, and in
turn, a guitar reduction of the piano reduction. According to him,
some orchestral works are simply cannot be reduced so much without
inflicting major damage on the proportions, and some can. The one that
he, Don Fernando Sor said he could play on the guitar, with a
considerable number of alterations yet preserving the original
proportions (which I think he meant the original counterpoint) was the
b-flat double fugue from Haydn's the Creation. I found Haydn's own
piano reduction, the very one Sor was talking about. I cannot play it,
but then, there are many other things I cannot play. So what I propose
to do is post on line a scan of the piano reduction, and whoever can
make it playable on one guitar, in the original key or otherwise, gets
the prize. The judges are myself, Jan de Kloe and an important non-
guitarist Haydn specialist TBA. Are you game?

MO.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-23 01:24:35 UTC
Permalink
I'm game!
Mark
Post by Matanya Ophee
 sometimes when I read through transcriptions
Bach inventions and the like on the guitar, I feel so cheated by the
distortions of the simple imitative counterpoint that has to be done
to make it work that I have to take a shower.
For this one, you will need more than a shower. A week in Finnish
sauna perhaps. Here is what I have in mind: one of the first things I
am going to do when I get home, is announce the Editions Orphee 2009
transcription competition. I don't mind jumping the horses a bit
sooner. Before I even begin, let me assure you, and anyone else who
might be tempted, that there are no money prizes. The best the winner
could expect, if there is a winner, is that his/her transcription will
In his guitar method, Sor goes into quite some detail into the
relationship between an orchestral score and a piano reduction, and in
turn, a guitar reduction of the piano reduction. According to him,
some orchestral works are simply cannot be reduced so much without
inflicting major damage on the proportions, and some can. The one that
he, Don Fernando Sor said he could play on the guitar, with a
considerable number of alterations yet preserving the original
proportions (which I think he meant the original counterpoint) was the
b-flat double fugue from Haydn's the Creation. I found Haydn's own
piano reduction, the very one Sor was talking about. I cannot play it,
but then, there are many other things I cannot play. So what I propose
to do is post on line a scan of the piano reduction, and whoever can
make it playable on one guitar, in the original key or otherwise, gets
the prize. The judges are myself, Jan de Kloe and an important non-
guitarist Haydn specialist TBA. Are you game?
MO.
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-23 01:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I'm game!
OK. Since I cannot post on line from here, I can send you the JPG
files directly. there are seven pages, about 1.5KB each. This is not a
scan (I don't have my scanner here, but a direct photograph I took).
It includes the entire vocal score plus the piano reduction. Can you
accept this in two e-mails (4 + 3)?

MO.
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-23 01:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I'm game!
OK. Since I cannot post on line from here, I can send you the JPG
files directly. there are seven pages, about 1.5KB each. This is not a
scan (I don't have my scanner here, but a direct photograph I took).
It includes the entire vocal score plus the piano reduction. Can you
accept this in two e-mails (4 + 3)?
MO.
I think I can handle it
Matanya Ophee
2009-07-23 01:48:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I'm game!
OK. Since I cannot post on line from here, I can send you the JPG
files directly. there are seven pages, about 1.5KB each. This is not a
scan (I don't have my scanner here, but a direct photograph I took).
It includes the entire vocal score plus the piano reduction. Can you
accept this in two e-mails (4 + 3)?
MO.
I think I can handle it
Coming at you privately....

MO.
Carlos Barrientos
2009-07-23 01:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by f***@yahoo.com
I'm game!
OK. Since I cannot post on line from here, I can send you the JPG
files directly. there are seven pages, about 1.5KB each. This is not a
scan (I don't have my scanner here, but a direct photograph I took).
It includes the entire vocal score plus the piano reduction. Can you
accept this in two e-mails (4 + 3)?
MO.
I think I can handle it
Coming at you privately....
MO.
I'll look...
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@gmail.com"
Phone: (229) 594-6374
Fugue
2009-07-23 15:45:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
You know, Universal pupblished an edition of Schoenberg's op. 19 made
by Siegfried Behrend  so I suppose they would not adverse to
publishing the above mentioned works of Berg and Webern.
I can see the value of these as hausmusik.
 I am sorry to be a party pooper, but I can't imagine the
painstakingly wrought canons in the Webern Variations not being upset
by being placed on the guitar. Similarly, the intensity and extensity
of space utilized by Berg for climaxes and their relief would also be
altered and distorted, among other things,no? Doesn't mean it would be
nice to read through. But sometimes when I read through transcriptions
Bach inventions and the like on the guitar, I feel so cheated by the
distortions of the simple imitative counterpoint that has to be done
to make it work that I have to take a shower.
Mark
Post by arys
Post by Fugue
for the guitar,
as that style seems to work well on the guitar. Jorge Caballero has a
very good,
if barely playable, version of Berg's Piano Sonata, and Phillip Hii
has successfully
transcribed Webern's Piano Variations.
Do you know if either one has been published?
-Matti Karjalainen
No, neither has been published yet.

I thought the same thing when I saw Berg's Sonata on Caballero's
program last year! But it was quite spell-binding in his performance
(I've seen him play it twice now), and the structure seemed more
clearly delineated on the guitar. Somehow the reduced resonance of the
instrument worked in the piece's favor. Sure, it lacks the intensity
and overt drama of the original, but it certainly works in his hands--
despite being crushingly difficult in places!
Brigitte Zaczek
2009-07-22 16:27:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Part of the reason I don't know Aplivor is because I wasted so much
money ordering Brindle's not-very-good Sonatas some time ago, that I
stopped ordering music sight unseen and without recommendation. Of
course, I bought the Sonatas on the basis of "Polifemo'
Now I have a policy that if 2 people I respect recommend something I
haven't seen or heard, I buy it! That seems to work well.
Mark
You might not know me and even less likely respect me - but nevertheless I
also would like to recommend Smith Brindle´s "Variants on 2 themes by
J.S.Bach" (1973) mentioned by Stanley in the link provided by Matanya.
Although complicated to put together it is a profound piece and very
rewarding for it´s possibilities of expression and sound.
BZ
__________________________________________________

o. Univ. Prof. Brigitte Zaczek
Universitaet fuer Musik und darstellende Kunst in Wien

***@mdw.ac.at
f***@yahoo.com
2009-07-22 16:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Brigitte,

Of course I know your work! From the Segovia classes on video and your
Mertz recordings, which are super! Congratulations!
After I read Stanley's comment, I ordered the Brindle Variants.
Therefore, I have had the music for some time and I agree that it is
an excellent piece.
How nice to see a post from you!

Best,
Mark
Post by Brigitte Zaczek
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Part of the reason I don't know Aplivor is because I wasted so much
money ordering Brindle's not-very-good Sonatas some time ago,  that I
stopped ordering music sight unseen and without recommendation. Of
course, I bought the Sonatas on the basis of "Polifemo'
Now I have a policy that if 2 people I respect recommend something I
haven't seen or heard, I buy it! That seems to work well.
Mark
You might not know me and even less likely respect me - but nevertheless I
also would like to recommend Smith Brindle´s "Variants on 2 themes by
J.S.Bach" (1973) mentioned by Stanley in the link provided by Matanya.
Although complicated to put together it is a profound piece and very
rewarding for it´s possibilities of expression and sound.
BZ
__________________________________________________
o. Univ. Prof. Brigitte Zaczek
Universitaet fuer Musik und darstellende Kunst in Wien  
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