Discussion:
Bach question
(too old to reply)
Tommy Grand
2010-03-14 17:01:46 UTC
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Hello dear friends,

Refer to the prelude for the first cello suite, measure 22, beat 2.
I'm playing a transcription in D major which has an F# here, instead
of the customary E natural. I understand that no autograph exists for
this suite, and there are numerous competing early manuscripts. Is
there any support for the F#? I saw one manscript online and it was a
little ambiguous to my eyes, hard to tell exactly what note was
intended. They both sound fine to me!

Tnx,
TG

p.s. don't pretend the E natural is the only logical choice. The fact
is that you're just used to it.
Andrew Schulman
2010-03-14 17:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Hello dear friends,
Refer to the prelude for the first cello suite, measure 22, beat 2.
I'm playing a transcription in D major which has an F# here, instead
of the customary E natural.  I understand that no autograph exists for
this suite, and there are numerous competing early manuscripts.  Is
there any support for the F#?  I saw one manscript online and it was a
little ambiguous to my eyes, hard to tell exactly what note was
intended.  They both sound fine to me!
Tnx,
TG
p.s. don't pretend the E natural is the only logical choice.  The fact
is that you're just used to it.
The -E- is the only logical choice. I'm not pretending.

This very note came up in a thread a while back when Matt Faunce
posted an mp3 with it. Search for that thread and you will find a
discussion about it.

Andrew
Tommy Grand
2010-03-14 19:35:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Hello dear friends,
Refer to the prelude for the first cello suite, measure 22, beat 2.
I'm playing a transcription in D major which has an F# here, instead
of the customary E natural.  I understand that no autograph exists for
this suite, and there are numerous competing early manuscripts.  Is
there any support for the F#?  I saw one manscript online and it was a
little ambiguous to my eyes, hard to tell exactly what note was
intended.  They both sound fine to me!
Tnx,
TG
p.s. don't pretend the E natural is the only logical choice.  The fact
is that you're just used to it.
The -E- is the only logical choice.  I'm not pretending.
This very note came up in a thread a while back when Matt Faunce
posted an mp3 with it.  Search for that thread and you will find a
discussion about it.
What do you think is the correct harmony for m 11?
Andrew Schulman
2010-03-14 21:38:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
What do you think is the correct harmony for m 11?
It's an E7+9 chord, also know as the "Jimi Hendrix" chord. If you
don't believe me ask Mark Delpriora.

Or, it could be functioning as a B7-9 with the 5th in the bass, when
played in played in D major.

Using the versions based on the urtext available at the (now up and
running again) Icking site let's look at the original G major version:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4433469920/sizes/l/

Now the same thing in D major:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4432694885/sizes/l/

And now, just for laughs, at my 8-string guitar version, m's 10-12:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4433469724/sizes/l/

Andrew
Matt Faunce
2010-03-14 22:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
What do you think is the correct harmony for m 11?
It's an E7+9 chord, also know as the "Jimi Hendrix" chord.  If you
don't believe me ask Mark Delpriora.
Or, it could be functioning as a B7-9 with the 5th in the bass, when
played in played in D major.
Using the versions based on the urtext available at the (now up and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4433469920/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4432694885/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4433469724/sizes/l/
Andrew
In the key of G: there's a D, F, G#, B. Looks like a G# half
diminished 7th chord, which leads nicely to A minor. Some people call
that a Bmin7(b5).

Jimmi Hendrix' Purple Haze chord is: E, e, g#, d, fx (double sharp).
E7+9 If Bach implied the root G, he did in fact copy from Jimi here.

Matt
Matt Faunce
2010-03-14 22:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Tommy Grand
What do you think is the correct harmony for m 11?
It's an E7+9 chord, also know as the "Jimi Hendrix" chord.  If you
don't believe me ask Mark Delpriora.
Or, it could be functioning as a B7-9 with the 5th in the bass, when
played in played in D major.
Using the versions based on the urtext available at the (now up and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4433469920/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4432694885/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4433469724/sizes/l/
Andrew
In the key of G: there's a D, F, G#, B. Looks like a G# half
diminished 7th chord, which leads nicely to A minor. Some people call
that a Bmin7(b5).
Jimmi Hendrix' Purple Haze chord is: E, e, g#, d, fx (double sharp).
E7+9 If Bach implied the root G, he did in fact copy from Jimi here.
Matt
Fully dim. 7
Tommy Grand
2010-03-14 22:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
What do you think is the correct harmony for m 11?
It's an E7+9 chord, also know as the "Jimi Hendrix" chord.  If you
don't believe me ask Mark Delpriora.
Or, it could be functioning as a B7-9 with the 5th in the bass, when
played in played in D major.
Using the versions based on the urtext available at the (now up and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4433469920/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4432694885/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4433469724/sizes/l/
Andrew
Sounds like B in the bass is ok. Next question: what bass notes do
you use for mm 25-28? My version has the following (in half notes) :
A, D, A, E, E, E, A
Andrew Schulman
2010-03-15 00:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Sounds like B in the bass is ok.
I see you are using the Pujol version. I don't like a B in the bass
there. I think the intention is the 7th in the bass.
Post by Tommy Grand
 Next question:  what bass notes do
A, D, A, E, E, E, A
I have taken the liberty to upload the Pujol for measures 25-28 (i
inputted it in Sibelius, but it matches the style of notation for the
Pujol very closely). Notice the wrong note in m. 26? And to answer
your question as to what bass notes I use I have uploaded that excerpt
as well:

Pujol:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4433143829/sizes/l/

Moi:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adeadgbe/4433146883/sizes/l/

Andrew
Matt Faunce
2010-03-14 23:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
What do you think is the correct harmony for m 11?
It's an E7+9 chord, also know as the "Jimi Hendrix" chord.  If you
don't believe me ask Mark Delpriora.
Or, it could be functioning as a B7-9 with the 5th in the bass, when
played in played in D major.
M. 11, in the key of G: there's a D, F, G#, B. I'd call it a G# fully
diminished 7th chord, which leads nicely to A minor.

I see the E7(b5) given an implied root E.

Jimmi Hendrix' Purple Haze chord is: E, e, g#, d, fx (double sharp).
No rearrangement with any implied root of the Bach chord can get you
this. You need the G natural tone (fx).

Matt
Andrew Schulman
2010-03-15 00:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Faunce
Jimmi Hendrix' Purple Haze chord is: E, e, g#, d, fx (double sharp).
No rearrangement with any implied root of the Bach chord can get you
this. You need the G natural tone (fx).
I was joking about it being the Hendrix chord, just figured I'd get
you and Mark to jump in.

Andrew
f***@yahoo.com
2010-03-15 00:43:55 UTC
Permalink
And it worked!!
Do you have the Ponce transcription of this that Segovia played?
Mark
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Matt Faunce
No rearrangement with any implied root of the Bach chord can get you
this. You need the G natural tone (fx).
I was joking about it being the Hendrix chord, just figured I'd get
you and Mark to jump in.
Andrew
Andrew Schulman
2010-03-15 01:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
And it worked!!
Do you have the Ponce transcription of this that Segovia played?
Mark
I had it, lost, but I have the Segovia recording.

Andrew
Tommy Grand
2010-03-15 01:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
And it worked!!
Do you have the Ponce transcription of this that Segovia played?
Mark
I have it. Want it?
f***@yahoo.com
2010-03-15 02:53:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
And it worked!!
Do you have the Ponce transcription of this that Segovia played?
Mark
I have it.  Want it?
Yes!
Mark
Tommy Grand
2010-03-15 03:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
And it worked!!
Do you have the Ponce transcription of this that Segovia played?
Mark
I have it.  Want it?
Yes!
Mark
I emailed it...
f***@yahoo.com
2010-03-15 13:04:39 UTC
Permalink
Tommy,

Thanks!

I thought the Bach/Ponce was published?



Best,
Mark
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by f***@yahoo.com
And it worked!!
Do you have the Ponce transcription of this that Segovia played?
Mark
I have it.  Want it?
Yes!
Mark
I emailed it...
Tommy Grand
2010-03-15 13:29:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Tommy,
Thanks!
I thought the Bach/Ponce was published?
Not sure...I received it from Steve Bosell, see here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.guitar/browse_frm/thread/6d5ab8d708e3ed0/
f***@yahoo.com
2010-03-15 13:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Tommy,
Thanks!
I thought the Bach/Ponce was published?
Not sure...I received it from Steve Bosell, see here:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.guitar/browse_frm/...
Thanks!

It is a shame these historically significant things go out of
print...such is life!
In my guitar literature class, I want to put this transcription in
context with Godowski, Busoni,and Rachmaninov's arrangement of 1006
Guitarists think this Bach/Ponce is so strange but it is not really in
context of the time..
Best,
Mark
Tommy Grand
2010-03-15 14:21:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Tommy,
Thanks!
I thought the Bach/Ponce was published?
Not sure...I received it from Steve Bosell, see here:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.guitar/browse_frm/...
Thanks!
It is a shame these historically significant things go out of
print...such is life!
 In my guitar literature class, I want to put this transcription in
context with Godowski, Busoni,and Rac