Discussion:
Segovia playing Bach Cello Suite #1 Prelude
(too old to reply)
Steve Freides
2010-10-30 20:58:14 UTC
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Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging



Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!

I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.

-S-
Denio
2010-10-30 21:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
-S-
That is Manuel Ponce's arrangement or re-composition of the Bach
Prelude BWV 1007. Either you like the added notes and harmonies or you
don't. Judging from the many YouTube comments a lot of people out there
really like it.

Here's another vid of then very young (she's still young at 28 or 29)
Chinese guitarist Lie Jie playing the Ponce version with a few minor
changes -




Denio
Fugue
2010-11-01 02:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denio
That is Manuel Ponce's arrangement or re-composition of the Bach
Prelude BWV 1007. Either you like the added notes and harmonies or you
don't. Judging from the many YouTube comments a lot of people out there
really like it.
Here is someone's version of it:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/38112004/Bach-Ponce-Cello-Prelude-BWV1007
wollybird
2010-10-30 21:18:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
-S-
That was kind of weird.
Happy Halloween
Andrew Schulman
2010-10-30 23:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
As Denio already mentioned, that's Manuel Ponce's arrangement.
Post by Steve Freides
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I play the 1st and 3rd 'Cello suites, and the Bach's own arrangement
of the 5th, which we know as the 3rd Lute Suite, BWV 995. It was the
prelude to that suite that inspired me to have my first 8-string
guitar made back in 1979. I always play a lot of bach and since I
know you would like to hear this music I will play it next time you
come by.

I look forward to seeing you and Bronwen again at Alouette!
Definitely make reservations; every Friday night since Labor Day has
been packed, without a reservation you can't get a table.

Andrew
Charlie
2010-10-31 01:25:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Steve Freides
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
As Denio already mentioned, that's Manuel Ponce's arrangement.
Post by Steve Freides
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I play the 1st and 3rd 'Cello suites, and the Bach's own arrangement
of the 5th, which we know as the 3rd Lute Suite, BWV 995.  It was the
prelude to that suite that inspired me to have my first 8-string
guitar made back in 1979.  I always play a lot of bach and since I
know you would like to hear this music I will play it next time you
come by.
I look forward to seeing you and Bronwen again at Alouette!
Definitely make reservations; every Friday night since Labor Day has
been packed, without a reservation you can't get a table.
Andrew
I can't imagine improving on a Bach Prelude. It've very sparcity is
its allure, at least to this ear. I've heard the Ponce arrangement
before this and did not particularly care for it. It's not bad, it's
just not Bach. It's kinda like hearing Beethoven's 5th with a samba
beat. Don't laugh, I've heard that piece too! lol

Andrew,

Allouette sounds nice. You do a very lot of playing, my friend.

Charlie
Andrew Schulman
2010-10-31 01:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Allouette sounds nice.  You do a very lot of playing, my friend.
Thanks Charlie. Yes, Alouette has turned out to be a very pleasant
scene. Because of where it's located, the Upper West Side of
Manhattan, and because it's generally a very cozy place with excellent
food, we get a lot of people that really appreciate music, including a
lot of musicians and theater people. But what matters most to me is
that they serve the best short ribs I know of!

Andrew
Miguel de Maria
2010-10-31 05:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Charlie.  Yes, Alouette has turned out to be a very pleasant
scene.  Because of where it's located, the Upper West Side of
Manhattan, and because it's generally a very cozy place with excellent
food, we get a lot of people that really appreciate music, including a
lot of musicians and theater people.  But what matters most to me is
that they serve the best short ribs I know of!
Andrew
Hrrrmpphh, you should the ones we serve here. They are Korean-style,
though.
Steve Freides
2010-10-31 12:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Post by Steve Freides
composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
Post by Steve Freides
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
As Denio already mentioned, that's Manuel Ponce's arrangement.
Post by Steve Freides
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear
you play!
I play the 1st and 3rd 'Cello suites, and the Bach's own arrangement
of the 5th, which we know as the 3rd Lute Suite, BWV 995. It was the
prelude to that suite that inspired me to have my first 8-string
guitar made back in 1979. I always play a lot of bach and since I
know you would like to hear this music I will play it next time you
come by.
I look forward to seeing you and Bronwen again at Alouette!
Definitely make reservations; every Friday night since Labor Day has
been packed, without a reservation you can't get a table.
Andrew
I can't imagine improving on a Bach Prelude. It've very sparcity is
its allure, at least to this ear. I've heard the Ponce arrangement
before this and did not particularly care for it. It's not bad, it's
just not Bach. It's kinda like hearing Beethoven's 5th with a samba
beat. Don't laugh, I've heard that piece too! lol
Andrew,
Allouette sounds nice. You do a very lot of playing, my friend.
Charlie
My son is now listening to some techno version of Barber's Adagio for
Strings ... He was telling me he thought techno was the closest thing
to classical in the pop music world. I dunno ...

-S-
Steve Freides
2010-10-31 12:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
As Denio already mentioned, that's Manuel Ponce's arrangement.
Post by Steve Freides
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear
you play!
I play the 1st and 3rd 'Cello suites, and the Bach's own arrangement
of the 5th, which we know as the 3rd Lute Suite, BWV 995. It was the
prelude to that suite that inspired me to have my first 8-string
guitar made back in 1979. I always play a lot of bach and since I
know you would like to hear this music I will play it next time you
come by.
I look forward to seeing you and Bronwen again at Alouette!
Definitely make reservations; every Friday night since Labor Day has
been packed, without a reservation you can't get a table.
Andrew
Very good. I will try to organize an outing with my students and their
wives again.

-S-
Douglas Seth
2010-10-31 13:44:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
-S-
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't make it the whole way
through it. Give me Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Slogoin
2010-10-31 14:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't
make it the whole way through it.  Give me
Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Why?
Charlie
2010-10-31 16:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't
make it the whole way through it.  Give me
Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Why?
Why? For me it's because in the original, the bass notes are not
held, they stop sounding after their 16th note duration. In this
segovia piece, he doesn't damp any strings, the bass notes just keep
ringing lending the piece a muddiness that was not meant, in my humble
opinion, to be there.

I feel classical guitarists do this generally, hit the bass note and
let it ring until it dies of its own., ignoring the fact that
composers have put time limits on duration through the use of rests.
Rests should be played just as well as notes. These rests are
essentially what makes the music swing. Melody resides in the space
between notes.

Charlie
Denio
2010-10-31 17:12:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Post by Douglas Seth
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't
make it the whole way through it.  Give me
Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Why?
Why? For me it's because in the original, the bass notes are not
held, they stop sounding after their 16th note duration. In this
segovia piece, he doesn't damp any strings, the bass notes just keep
ringing lending the piece a muddiness that was not meant, in my humble
opinion, to be there.
So do you think this piece cannot be done justice to on the guitar at
all? In the original not only are the bass notes in 16ths but
practically every other note is too, should they be also dampened as
well? It would sound very pizzicato-ish on guitar.

The cello has a very sonorous sustain and resonance that the guitar
doesn't, the only way to make this piece sound full as on the cello is
to let the bass notes and other chord formations to ring out.
Conversely since the cello is at its core a single-line melodic
instrument Bach wouldn't have written notes to ring out when they
couldn't either. Perhaps had he arranged this for guitar he would have
marked the bass notes differently. Comparing the same pieces by Bach on
different types of sustaining and non-sustaining instruments can give
us an insight. For example comparing the 3rd Violin Partita to its Lute
Suite #4 counterpart.

I think that is the beauty of playing this on the guitar as it casts
the melody and implied woven harmonies in a different light. Otherwise
might as well just play this on a mandolin ;-)


Denio
Douglas Seth
2010-10-31 18:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't
make it the whole way through it.  Give me
Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Why?
Why?  For me it's because in the original, the bass notes are not
held, they stop sounding after their 16th note duration.  In this
segovia piece, he doesn't damp any strings, the bass notes just keep
ringing lending the piece a muddiness that was not meant, in my humble
opinion, to be there.
I feel classical guitarists do this generally, hit the bass note and
let it ring until it dies of its own., ignoring the fact that
composers have put time limits on duration through the use of rests.
Rests should be played just as well as notes.  These rests are
essentially what makes the music swing.  Melody resides in the space
between notes.
Charlie
Yes, Charlie! There is also heaviness in the basses that weighs it
down too and the lines don't really sound clear. Between the heavy
tone Segovia chose to use and the key of the arrangment (which is also
sounds heavy, especially in the basses) doesn't lend itself well to
contrapuntal music. To me, it might as well be Segovia playing
anything Segovia plays. It just sounds like Segovia, playing Segovia,
in the key of Segovia! LOL! But he is SEGOVIA and I am just me! If
you didn't KNOW this was Segovia playing it, I wonder how much more
critical people would be of this kind of playing.
Miguel de Maria
2010-10-31 17:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't
make it the whole way through it.  Give me
Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Why?
Would you say Doug's being "cheeky"? :)
Douglas Seth
2010-10-31 18:30:19 UTC
Permalink