Discussion:
Segovia playing Bach Cello Suite #1 Prelude
(too old to reply)
Steve Freides
2010-10-30 20:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging



Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!

I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.

-S-
Denio
2010-10-30 21:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
-S-
That is Manuel Ponce's arrangement or re-composition of the Bach
Prelude BWV 1007. Either you like the added notes and harmonies or you
don't. Judging from the many YouTube comments a lot of people out there
really like it.

Here's another vid of then very young (she's still young at 28 or 29)
Chinese guitarist Lie Jie playing the Ponce version with a few minor
changes -




Denio
Fugue
2010-11-01 02:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denio
That is Manuel Ponce's arrangement or re-composition of the Bach
Prelude BWV 1007. Either you like the added notes and harmonies or you
don't. Judging from the many YouTube comments a lot of people out there
really like it.
Here is someone's version of it:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/38112004/Bach-Ponce-Cello-Prelude-BWV1007
wollybird
2010-10-30 21:18:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
-S-
That was kind of weird.
Happy Halloween
Andrew Schulman
2010-10-30 23:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
As Denio already mentioned, that's Manuel Ponce's arrangement.
Post by Steve Freides
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I play the 1st and 3rd 'Cello suites, and the Bach's own arrangement
of the 5th, which we know as the 3rd Lute Suite, BWV 995. It was the
prelude to that suite that inspired me to have my first 8-string
guitar made back in 1979. I always play a lot of bach and since I
know you would like to hear this music I will play it next time you
come by.

I look forward to seeing you and Bronwen again at Alouette!
Definitely make reservations; every Friday night since Labor Day has
been packed, without a reservation you can't get a table.

Andrew
Charlie
2010-10-31 01:25:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Steve Freides
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
As Denio already mentioned, that's Manuel Ponce's arrangement.
Post by Steve Freides
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I play the 1st and 3rd 'Cello suites, and the Bach's own arrangement
of the 5th, which we know as the 3rd Lute Suite, BWV 995.  It was the
prelude to that suite that inspired me to have my first 8-string
guitar made back in 1979.  I always play a lot of bach and since I
know you would like to hear this music I will play it next time you
come by.
I look forward to seeing you and Bronwen again at Alouette!
Definitely make reservations; every Friday night since Labor Day has
been packed, without a reservation you can't get a table.
Andrew
I can't imagine improving on a Bach Prelude. It've very sparcity is
its allure, at least to this ear. I've heard the Ponce arrangement
before this and did not particularly care for it. It's not bad, it's
just not Bach. It's kinda like hearing Beethoven's 5th with a samba
beat. Don't laugh, I've heard that piece too! lol

Andrew,

Allouette sounds nice. You do a very lot of playing, my friend.

Charlie
Andrew Schulman
2010-10-31 01:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Allouette sounds nice.  You do a very lot of playing, my friend.
Thanks Charlie. Yes, Alouette has turned out to be a very pleasant
scene. Because of where it's located, the Upper West Side of
Manhattan, and because it's generally a very cozy place with excellent
food, we get a lot of people that really appreciate music, including a
lot of musicians and theater people. But what matters most to me is
that they serve the best short ribs I know of!

Andrew
Miguel de Maria
2010-10-31 05:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Charlie.  Yes, Alouette has turned out to be a very pleasant
scene.  Because of where it's located, the Upper West Side of
Manhattan, and because it's generally a very cozy place with excellent
food, we get a lot of people that really appreciate music, including a
lot of musicians and theater people.  But what matters most to me is
that they serve the best short ribs I know of!
Andrew
Hrrrmpphh, you should the ones we serve here. They are Korean-style,
though.
Steve Freides
2010-10-31 12:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Post by Steve Freides
composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
Post by Steve Freides
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
As Denio already mentioned, that's Manuel Ponce's arrangement.
Post by Steve Freides
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear
you play!
I play the 1st and 3rd 'Cello suites, and the Bach's own arrangement
of the 5th, which we know as the 3rd Lute Suite, BWV 995. It was the
prelude to that suite that inspired me to have my first 8-string
guitar made back in 1979. I always play a lot of bach and since I
know you would like to hear this music I will play it next time you
come by.
I look forward to seeing you and Bronwen again at Alouette!
Definitely make reservations; every Friday night since Labor Day has
been packed, without a reservation you can't get a table.
Andrew
I can't imagine improving on a Bach Prelude. It've very sparcity is
its allure, at least to this ear. I've heard the Ponce arrangement
before this and did not particularly care for it. It's not bad, it's
just not Bach. It's kinda like hearing Beethoven's 5th with a samba
beat. Don't laugh, I've heard that piece too! lol
Andrew,
Allouette sounds nice. You do a very lot of playing, my friend.
Charlie
My son is now listening to some techno version of Barber's Adagio for
Strings ... He was telling me he thought techno was the closest thing
to classical in the pop music world. I dunno ...

-S-
Steve Freides
2010-10-31 12:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
As Denio already mentioned, that's Manuel Ponce's arrangement.
Post by Steve Freides
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear
you play!
I play the 1st and 3rd 'Cello suites, and the Bach's own arrangement
of the 5th, which we know as the 3rd Lute Suite, BWV 995. It was the
prelude to that suite that inspired me to have my first 8-string
guitar made back in 1979. I always play a lot of bach and since I
know you would like to hear this music I will play it next time you
come by.
I look forward to seeing you and Bronwen again at Alouette!
Definitely make reservations; every Friday night since Labor Day has
been packed, without a reservation you can't get a table.
Andrew
Very good. I will try to organize an outing with my students and their
wives again.

-S-
Douglas Seth
2010-10-31 13:44:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
-S-
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't make it the whole way
through it. Give me Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Slogoin
2010-10-31 14:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't
make it the whole way through it.  Give me
Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Why?
Charlie
2010-10-31 16:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't
make it the whole way through it.  Give me
Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Why?
Why? For me it's because in the original, the bass notes are not
held, they stop sounding after their 16th note duration. In this
segovia piece, he doesn't damp any strings, the bass notes just keep
ringing lending the piece a muddiness that was not meant, in my humble
opinion, to be there.

I feel classical guitarists do this generally, hit the bass note and
let it ring until it dies of its own., ignoring the fact that
composers have put time limits on duration through the use of rests.
Rests should be played just as well as notes. These rests are
essentially what makes the music swing. Melody resides in the space
between notes.

Charlie
Denio
2010-10-31 17:12:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Post by Douglas Seth
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't
make it the whole way through it.  Give me
Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Why?
Why? For me it's because in the original, the bass notes are not
held, they stop sounding after their 16th note duration. In this
segovia piece, he doesn't damp any strings, the bass notes just keep
ringing lending the piece a muddiness that was not meant, in my humble
opinion, to be there.
So do you think this piece cannot be done justice to on the guitar at
all? In the original not only are the bass notes in 16ths but
practically every other note is too, should they be also dampened as
well? It would sound very pizzicato-ish on guitar.

The cello has a very sonorous sustain and resonance that the guitar
doesn't, the only way to make this piece sound full as on the cello is
to let the bass notes and other chord formations to ring out.
Conversely since the cello is at its core a single-line melodic
instrument Bach wouldn't have written notes to ring out when they
couldn't either. Perhaps had he arranged this for guitar he would have
marked the bass notes differently. Comparing the same pieces by Bach on
different types of sustaining and non-sustaining instruments can give
us an insight. For example comparing the 3rd Violin Partita to its Lute
Suite #4 counterpart.

I think that is the beauty of playing this on the guitar as it casts
the melody and implied woven harmonies in a different light. Otherwise
might as well just play this on a mandolin ;-)


Denio
Douglas Seth
2010-10-31 18:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't
make it the whole way through it.  Give me
Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Why?
Why?  For me it's because in the original, the bass notes are not
held, they stop sounding after their 16th note duration.  In this
segovia piece, he doesn't damp any strings, the bass notes just keep
ringing lending the piece a muddiness that was not meant, in my humble
opinion, to be there.
I feel classical guitarists do this generally, hit the bass note and
let it ring until it dies of its own., ignoring the fact that
composers have put time limits on duration through the use of rests.
Rests should be played just as well as notes.  These rests are
essentially what makes the music swing.  Melody resides in the space
between notes.
Charlie
Yes, Charlie! There is also heaviness in the basses that weighs it
down too and the lines don't really sound clear. Between the heavy
tone Segovia chose to use and the key of the arrangment (which is also
sounds heavy, especially in the basses) doesn't lend itself well to
contrapuntal music. To me, it might as well be Segovia playing
anything Segovia plays. It just sounds like Segovia, playing Segovia,
in the key of Segovia! LOL! But he is SEGOVIA and I am just me! If
you didn't KNOW this was Segovia playing it, I wonder how much more
critical people would be of this kind of playing.
Miguel de Maria
2010-10-31 17:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Man, that was hard to listen to! I couldn't
make it the whole way through it.  Give me
Segovia all day for Torroba or Turina, but this
is pretty awful.
Why?
Would you say Doug's being "cheeky"? :)
Douglas Seth
2010-10-31 18:30:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
Here is a video of Stanley playing it himself in expert manner. He
seems unusally restrained in his use of ornamentation here and no capo
the 1st fret.



Add a few low "C's" would probably defeat the purpose or point of what
he was going for. Thank god he didn't.
Denio
2010-10-31 19:15:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
Here is a video of Stanley playing it himself in expert manner. He
seems unusally restrained in his use of ornamentation here and no capo
the 1st fret.
http://youtu.be/u2K7sRrlV0U
Add a few low "C's" would probably defeat the purpose or point of what
he was going for. Thank god he didn't.
I don't like this C major version at all, the playing is correct but
the sound is so thin and there's no resonance, where is the power and
majesty of the cello here? Were it not for the very reverberant space
this video was recorded in it would sound flat and acoustically dead.

When I see and hear Yo Yo Ma playing it in this video with such
beautiful phrasing



I realize how far beind the guitar is in this music. Nevermind the
flowery & flamboyant Ponce arr., at least Segovia in his own unique way
sings out the melodic line and shapes it like the cello does. I think
the Chinese girl Lie Jie with the same Ponce version wins here as most
beautful. Almost half a million views on YouTube is not simply because
she is (was) a child prodigy but because of the beauty of the sound of
D major for this music on guitar and how when it it is played to
perfection moves people emotionally.

http://youtu.be/GlXlaOeYl2c

There's also a performance by John Williams from an early-1980's
recording Portrait Of John Williams that's very beautiful and powerful,
it's also in D major with low D tuning minus the Ponce add-ons that
approaches the grandeur of the cello.

http://plum.cream.org/williams/records/040.htm

I believe Williams' arr. is by John Duarte with some modifications. The
Duarte arr. is worth seeking out if only to examine one person's
approach to effectively realizing this music successfully on solo
guitar. There's also a good arr. of the 3rd Cello Suite by Duarte as
well.

http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5191/30/Cello-Suite-No.1,-Bwv1007(duarte)_Bach,-Johann-Sebastian

http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5192/30/Cello-Suite-No.3,-Bwv1009(duarte)_Bach,-Johann-Sebastian/

When

the C major version gets as many views on YouTube as the popular D
major ones I'll pay attention more. Right now I don't see C major ever
catching on as the key to play this piece on guitar. Except for the
Bach 3rd Solo Violin Sonata BWV1003 and the Andante from the 2nd Solo
Violin Sonata BWV1005 let's leave C major for Giuliani and Sor ;-)


Denio
Douglas Seth
2010-10-31 22:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denio
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
Here is a video of Stanley playing it himself in expert manner.  He
seems unusally restrained in his use of ornamentation here and no capo
the 1st fret.
http://youtu.be/u2K7sRrlV0U
Add a few low "C's" would probably defeat the purpose or point of what
he was going for.  Thank god he didn't.
I don't like this C major version at all, the playing is correct but
the sound is so thin and there's no resonance, where is the power and
majesty of the cello here? Were it not for the very reverberant space
this video was recorded in it would sound flat and acoustically dead.
You have missed the point of these arrangements completely. They
aren't supposed to imitate the power and resonance of the cello or the
cello in any way. They are idiomatic arrangements for the guitar in
the spirit in which Bach arranged from instrument to instrument. For
example, the 4th lute suite is an "arrangement/recomposition" of the
violin partita. He wasn't trying to arrange it so it "imitated" the
violin, but rather an idiomatic, fully functioning composition for the
lute. Ditto for the 5th cello suite Bach himself arranged for the
lute in the 3rd lute suite. Not everything needs to sound big heavy,
plodding, and loud on the guitar, but no one has clued most CGers in
on this. Certainly Bach deserves a clear, refined tone like the one
used by Stanley, not heavy and plodding.
Post by Denio
When I see and hear Yo Yo Ma playing it in this video with such
beautiful phrasing
http://youtu.be/dZn_VBgkPNY
All of these cello suites sound better arranged for the guitar than
cello, but I am sure many would disagree. Especially the 6th cello
suite. I will go on the record for saying that if Bach himself
arranged the 1st cello suite for guitar it would look a lot closer to
SY's C major. This is evidenced by arrangements Bach himself made in
his own lifetime and which we can still look at today. Yo Yo Ma is a
great cellist and can make anything sound good like all truly great
musicians.
Post by Denio
I realize how far beind the guitar is in this music. Nevermind the
flowery & flamboyant Ponce arr., at least Segovia in his own unique way
sings out the melodic line and shapes it like the cello does. I think
the Chinese girl Lie Jie with the same Ponce version wins here as most
beautful. Almost half a million views on YouTube is not simply because
she is (was) a child prodigy but because of the beauty of the sound of
D major for this music on guitar and how when it it is played to
perfection moves people emotionally.
The guitar is behind is because of shitty arrangements that aren't
even close to being stylistically correct or musically refined like
some of these. Not to mention guitarists who play them even worse.
Post by Denio
http://youtu.be/GlXlaOeYl2c
There's also a performance by John Williams from an early-1980's
recording Portrait Of John Williams that's very beautiful and powerful,
it's also in D major with low D tuning minus the Ponce add-ons that
approaches the grandeur of the cello.
http://plum.cream.org/williams/records/040.htm
I believe Williams' arr. is by John Duarte with some modifications. The
Duarte arr. is worth seeking out if only to examine one person's
approach to effectively realizing this music successfully on solo
guitar. There's also a good arr. of the 3rd Cello Suite by Duarte as
well.
http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5191/30/Cello-Suite-No.1,-Bwv100...
http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5192/30/Cello-Suite-No.3,-Bwv100...
When
the C major version gets as many views on YouTube as the popular D
major ones I'll pay attention more. Right now I don't see C major ever
catching on as the key to play this piece on guitar. Except for the
Bach 3rd Solo Violin Sonata BWV1003 and the Andante from the 2nd Solo
Violin Sonata BWV1005 let's leave C major for Giuliani and Sor ;-)
Denio- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Stanley Yates
2010-11-01 00:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denio
Right now I don't see C major ever
catching on as the key to play this piece on guitar. Except for the
Bach 3rd Solo Violin Sonata BWV1003 and the Andante from the 2nd Solo
Violin Sonata BWV1005 let's leave C major for Giuliani and Sor ;-)
The fact that c.10,000 have bought my edition of this, along with another
10,000 who have likely photocopied it, might go some way to refuting that!

Still, D-major probably is a better key for this prelude, though I don't
think it's a good key for the suite as a whole. But I didn't arrange just
the first cello suite prelude, I arranged the six suites as a complete work,
which I felt required six distinct tonalaties. Following the procedure I
established to determine what those keys should or could be led to the first
suite being in C major. But there's another 16,000 explaing my arrangement
process in the edition itself.

By the way, don't you find that the cello tends to be a heavy instrument, an
instrument of some gravitas? Yet by no means all of the music written for it
is of a proufoundly heavy character.

Should we leave a-minor, d-minor and e-minor to Sor and Giuliani as well?

sy
Steve Freides
2010-11-01 02:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Denio
Right now I don't see C major ever
catching on as the key to play this piece on guitar. Except for the
Bach 3rd Solo Violin Sonata BWV1003 and the Andante from the 2nd Solo
Violin Sonata BWV1005 let's leave C major for Giuliani and Sor ;-)
The fact that c.10,000 have bought my edition of this, along with
another 10,000 who have likely photocopied it, might go some way to
refuting that!
Still, D-major probably is a better key for this prelude, though I
don't think it's a good key for the suite as a whole. But I didn't
arrange just the first cello suite prelude, I arranged the six suites
as a complete work, which I felt required six distinct tonalaties.
Following the procedure I established to determine what those keys
should or could be led to the first suite being in C major. But
there's another 16,000 explaing my arrangement process in the edition
itself.
By the way, don't you find that the cello tends to be a heavy
instrument, an instrument of some gravitas? Yet by no means all of
the music written for it is of a proufoundly heavy character.
Should we leave a-minor, d-minor and e-minor to Sor and Giuliani as well?
sy
Stanley, I just had a chance to listen to you play the prelude, in C in
your arrangement, on YouTube today - lovely, wonderful, musical playing.
Bravo! And it should certainly put to rest any complaints about it in
C.

I will report on Andrew's 8-string version when I get the chance to hear
it.

In the meantime, is there a published D-major version without all the
horrid additional voice leadings I heard on the Segovia recording? I
assume all the D-major versions use the sixth string tuned down a step
to D.

-S-
wollybird
2010-11-01 03:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Denio
Right now I don't see C major ever
catching on as the key to play this piece on guitar. Except for the
Bach 3rd Solo Violin Sonata BWV1003 and the Andante from the 2nd Solo
Violin Sonata BWV1005 let's leave C major for Giuliani and Sor ;-)
The fact that c.10,000 have bought my edition of this, along with
another 10,000 who have likely photocopied it, might go some way to
refuting that!
Still, D-major probably is a better key for this prelude, though I
don't think it's a good key for the suite as a whole. But I didn't
arrange just the first cello suite prelude, I arranged the six suites
as a complete work, which I felt required six distinct tonalaties.
Following the procedure I established to determine what those keys
should or could be led to the first suite being in C major. But
there's another 16,000 explaing my arrangement process in the edition
itself.
By the way, don't you find that the cello tends to be a heavy
instrument, an instrument of some gravitas? Yet by no means all of
the music written for it is of a proufoundly heavy character.
Should we leave a-minor, d-minor and e-minor to Sor and Giuliani as well?
sy
Stanley, I just had a chance to listen to you play the prelude, in C in
your arrangement, on YouTube today - lovely, wonderful, musical playing.
Bravo!  And it should certainly put to rest any complaints about it in
C.
I will report on Andrew's 8-string version when I get the chance to hear
it.
In the meantime, is there a published D-major version without all the
horrid additional voice leadings I heard on the Segovia recording?  I
assume all the D-major versions use the sixth string tuned down a step
to D.
-S-- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Noad has a version in D with out the drop D in Book 2 of his method
Denio
2010-11-01 03:23:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Denio
Right now I don't see C major ever
catching on as the key to play this piece on guitar. Except for the
Bach 3rd Solo Violin Sonata BWV1003 and the Andante from the 2nd Solo
Violin Sonata BWV1005 let's leave C major for Giuliani and Sor ;-)
The fact that c.10,000 have bought my edition of this, along with
another 10,000 who have likely photocopied it, might go some way to
refuting that!
Still, D-major probably is a better key for this prelude, though I
don't think it's a good key for the suite as a whole. But I didn't
arrange just the first cello suite prelude, I arranged the six suites
as a complete work, which I felt required six distinct tonalaties.
Following the procedure I established to determine what those keys
should or could be led to the first suite being in C major. But
there's another 16,000 explaing my arrangement process in the edition
itself.
By the way, don't you find that the cello tends to be a heavy
instrument, an instrument of some gravitas? Yet by no means all of
the music written for it is of a proufoundly heavy character.
Should we leave a-minor, d-minor and e-minor to Sor and Giuliani as well?
sy
Stanley, I just had a chance to listen to you play the prelude, in C in
your arrangement, on YouTube today - lovely, wonderful, musical playing.
Bravo! And it should certainly put to rest any complaints about it in
C.
I will report on Andrew's 8-string version when I get the chance to hear
it.
In the meantime, is there a published D-major version without all the
horrid additional voice leadings I heard on the Segovia recording? I
assume all the D-major versions use the sixth string tuned down a step
to D.
-S-
Not all, here's two free online editions by JF Delcamp and Eva Jaksch
that don't have a low D.

http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/bach/bwv1007/bwv1007_bach_prelude.pdf

http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/bach/bwv1007/1007prelude.pdf


I like the John Duarte second edition published by Schott best, it has
a low D tuning and with a little tweaking of bass notes and
fingerings/slurs here and there is quite good and it sounds full and
majestic. The other movements sound great too. Duarte puts in ornaments
and shows how to play them note-for-note too.

http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5191/30/Cello-Suite-No.1,-Bwv1007(duarte)_Bach,-Johann-Sebastian


Denio
Denio
2010-11-01 03:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Denio
Right now I don't see C major ever
catching on as the key to play this piece on guitar. Except for the
Bach 3rd Solo Violin Sonata BWV1003 and the Andante from the 2nd Solo
Violin Sonata BWV1005 let's leave C major for Giuliani and Sor ;-)
The fact that c.10,000 have bought my edition of this, along with
another 10,000 who have likely photocopied it, might go some way to
refuting that!
Thank you for joining this thread Stanley. You don't need to relate
what a success your book has been, I've seen it everywhere I go that's
music library or classical guitar related. I haven't seen or heard
professional recordings of it however, but I think that's because Bach
is so personal and every recording artist has their own transcription
and arrangement that they want the world to hear. I guess the same can
be said of Frank Koonce's Bach Lute Suites Editions, everybody has the
book but nobody has recorded them exactly as they appear in print ;-)

The choice of C major key bothers me in Cello Suite #1 because I don't
think that it enables the guitar to be at its most expessive, that's
just the way I'm hearing the sonority in C which sounds weak to my ears
in this music only. Obviously you disagree and all the many people who
bought your edition is proof of that, I'm very happy that you've had
great success with your edition.
Post by Stanley Yates
Still, D-major probably is a better key for this prelude, though I
don't think it's a good key for the suite as a whole.
Well it's refreshingly honest and vindicating for me to hear you say
that especially after the pouncing I just got from some of the other
posters in this thread ;-)

I like the entire suite in D, the Allemande that comes next is really
gorgeous, such a beautiful lyrical line and should be as well known as
the prelude imo. What do you think of the second Duarte edition
published by Schott? I know you've dismissed his own compositions here
in this NG but I think the Bach Cello arr.'s aren't that bad with some
tweaking here and there. Williams did a good recording of them back in
the day.
Post by Stanley Yates
By the way, don't you find that the cello tends to be a heavy
instrument, an instrument of some gravitas? Yet by no means all of the
music written for it is of a profoundly heavy character.
Maybe not, but all of the music that it's famous for and that audiences
go to hear and buy recordings of is - Brahms: Cello and piano sonatas,
the solo cello in the opening and closing of the slow movement of 2nd
piano concerto , Beethoven - The Cello and Piano Sonatas, Elgar's Cello
Concerto, Dvorak's Cello concerto, Shostakovich's Concerto #1,
Strauss's Don Quixote, the Britten Sonatas, Suites, Cello Symphony,
Rachmaninoff & Prokofiev Sonatas,the Faure Elegie and Apres un Reve
etc..

I think "profoundly heavy" is not the way to describe the character of
the cello and it repertoire. It's more of a melancholic temperament and
disposition that the cello has no matter the lightness or grace of the
music it's playing. For example the Swan by Saint-Saens or the
Bachianas Brasileiras #5 by Villa-Lobos. In that way it is very similar
to the guitar which is famous for its compositionally light yet
melancholic pieces. I had a friend who said to me once that the guitar
sounds sad even when it's playing very happy music. The fusion
guitarist John McLaughlin explains that the tragedy of the
acoustic/classical guitar is that you play a note and it instantly dies
away, never to be heard from again. So there's a built in sadness to
both the cello and guitar each in their own unique timbres.
Post by Stanley Yates
Should we leave a-minor, d-minor and e-minor to Sor and Giuliani as well?
sy
Absolutely not, these keys utilize the open bass strings of the guitar
or the low D tuning which is very sonorous as in the Bach Chaconne if
played in its original key. The lute suites and violin music use the a
and e minor keys brilliantly.

Thanks very much for your input.


Denio
wollybird
2010-11-01 03:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denio
Thank you for joining this thread Stanley. You don't need to relate
what a success your book has been, I've seen it everywhere I go that's
music library or classical guitar related. I haven't seen or heard
professional recordings of it however
Oh, jesus.
Here:
http://www.amazon.com/Unaccompanied-Cello-Suites-Arranged-Guitar/dp/B000145PYQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1288581565&sr=1-1
Denio
2010-11-01 03:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by wollybird
Post by Denio
Thank you for joining this thread Stanley. You don't need to relate
what a success your book has been, I've seen it everywhere I go that's
music library or classical guitar related. I haven't seen or heard
professional recordings of it however
Oh, jesus.
http://www.amazon.com/Unaccompanied-Cello-Suites-Arranged-Guitar/dp/B000145PYQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1288581565&sr=1-1
Yes
I'm well aware of Stanley's own recording of his Bach Cello editions,
anybody else have a recording of these S Yates transcriptions on Amazon?

Denio
Paul Magnussen
2010-10-31 22:24:58 UTC
Permalink
Christopher Parkening plays the Ponce arrangement but takes just a few
of the extra bass notes out. In my opinion this improves it considerably.

Paul Magnussen
Douglas Seth
2010-10-31 23:34:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denio
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
Here is a video of Stanley playing it himself in expert manner.  He
seems unusally restrained in his use of ornamentation here and no capo
the 1st fret.
http://youtu.be/u2K7sRrlV0U
Add a few low "C's" would probably defeat the purpose or point of what
he was going for.  Thank god he didn't.
I don't like this C major version at all, the playing is correct but
the sound is so thin and there's no resonance, where is the power and
majesty of the cello here? Were it not for the very reverberant space
this video was recorded in it would sound flat and acoustically dead.
When I see and hear Yo Yo Ma playing it in this video with such
beautiful phrasing
http://youtu.be/dZn_VBgkPNY
I realize how far beind the guitar is in this music. Nevermind the
flowery & flamboyant Ponce arr., at least Segovia in his own unique way
sings out the melodic line and shapes it like the cello does. I think
the Chinese girl Lie Jie with the same Ponce version wins here as most
beautful. Almost half a million views on YouTube is not simply because
she is (was) a child prodigy but because of the beauty of the sound of
D major for this music on guitar and how when it it is played to
perfection moves people emotionally.
http://youtu.be/GlXlaOeYl2c
There's also a performance by John Williams from an early-1980's
recording Portrait Of John Williams that's very beautiful and powerful,
it's also in D major with low D tuning minus the Ponce add-ons that
approaches the grandeur of the cello.
http://plum.cream.org/williams/records/040.htm
I believe Williams' arr. is by John Duarte with some modifications. The
Duarte arr. is worth seeking out if only to examine one person's
approach to effectively realizing this music successfully on solo
guitar. There's also a good arr. of the 3rd Cello Suite by Duarte as
well.
http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5191/30/Cello-Suite-No.1,-Bwv100...
http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5192/30/Cello-Suite-No.3,-Bwv100...
When
the C major version gets as many views on YouTube as the popular D
major ones I'll pay attention more. Right now I don't see C major ever
catching on as the key to play this piece on guitar. Except for the
Bach 3rd Solo Violin Sonata BWV1003 and the Andante from the 2nd Solo
Violin Sonata BWV1005 let's leave C major for Giuliani and Sor ;-)
The amount of views just proves nothing. Look at how many views Lady
Gaga has or the guy farting the national anthem. The Cmaj version
hasn't been around as nearly long and in the respect of being
stylistically informed in far better and closer to what Bach himself
would have arranged. It is a different kind of playing mentality and
view of interpretation which clearly you aren't capable of possessing.
Denio
2010-11-01 00:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Seth
Post by Denio
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
Here is a video of Stanley playing it himself in expert manner.  He
seems unusally restrained in his use of ornamentation here and no capo
the 1st fret.
http://youtu.be/u2K7sRrlV0U
Add a few low "C's" would probably defeat the purpose or point of what
he was going for.  Thank god he didn't.
I don't like this C major version at all, the playing is correct but
the sound is so thin and there's no resonance, where is the power and
majesty of the cello here? Were it not for the very reverberant space
this video was recorded in it would sound flat and acoustically dead.
When I see and hear Yo Yo Ma playing it in this video with such
beautiful phrasing
http://youtu.be/dZn_VBgkPNY
I realize how far beind the guitar is in this music. Nevermind the
flowery & flamboyant Ponce arr., at least Segovia in his own unique way
sings out the melodic line and shapes it like the cello does. I think
the Chinese girl Lie Jie with the same Ponce version wins here as most
beautful. Almost half a million views on YouTube is not simply because
she is (was) a child prodigy but because of the beauty of the sound of
D major for this music on guitar and how when it it is played to
perfection moves people emotionally.
http://youtu.be/GlXlaOeYl2c
There's also a performance by John Williams from an early-1980's
recording Portrait Of John Williams that's very beautiful and powerful,
it's also in D major with low D tuning minus the Ponce add-ons that
approaches the grandeur of the cello.
http://plum.cream.org/williams/records/040.htm
I believe Williams' arr. is by John Duarte with some modifications. The
Duarte arr. is worth seeking out if only to examine one person's
approach to effectively realizing this music successfully on solo
guitar. There's also a good arr. of the 3rd Cello Suite by Duarte as
well.
http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5191/30/Cello-Suite-No.1,-Bwv100...
http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5192/30/Cello-Suite-No.3,-Bwv100...
When
the C major version gets as many views on YouTube as the popular D
major ones I'll pay attention more. Right now I don't see C major ever
catching on as the key to play this piece on guitar. Except for the
Bach 3rd Solo Violin Sonata BWV1003 and the Andante from the 2nd Solo
Violin Sonata BWV1005 let's leave C major for Giuliani and Sor ;-)
The amount of views just proves nothing. Look at how many views Lady
Gaga has or the guy farting the national anthem. The Cmaj version
hasn't been around as nearly long and in the respect of being
stylistically informed in far better and closer to what Bach himself
would have arranged. It is a different kind of playing mentality and
view of interpretation which clearly you aren't capable of possessing.
Oh please!! The piece in C major is so very weak on the guitar, it
doesn't even approach the power and sonority you get in D major with a
low D tuning. Who cares about stylistically informed? That's so
subjective, plus this is 2010, not 1750 anymore. Either it sounds good
and works or it doesn't. Honestly I play it just as good or better than
Stanley does with my "unstylistically informed" D major John Duarte
arr. (with some of my own modifications) Would you like to hear it? I
would share my recording of it with you but you've already written me
off as an insensitive musician.

By the way I posted the Yo Yo Ma performance link before you did in
this thread. The guitar can achieve the expressiveness of the cello but
not in C major, it's just not going to happen in that key IMO.

I disagree as well as to whether the amount of YT views means
something, Lady Gaga and a national anthem desecration are pop culture
videos that have the potential to go viral very quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_video

Classical music videos are different, I think most people who search
for them are genuinely interested in the beauty of the music, the
composers and its performers, each view pretty much counts as something
meaningful. A little known girl from China playing a D major arr. of a
Bach Cello Suite attracting half a million views is not something to
dismiss lightly as you just have.


Denio
wollybird
2010-11-01 00:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denio
Post by Denio
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
Here is a video of Stanley playing it himself in expert manner.  He
seems unusally restrained in his use of ornamentation here and no capo
the 1st fret.
http://youtu.be/u2K7sRrlV0U
Add a few low "C's" would probably defeat the purpose or point of what
he was going for.  Thank god he didn't.
I don't like this C major version at all, the playing is correct but
the sound is so thin and there's no resonance, where is the power and
majesty of the cello here? Were it not for the very reverberant space
this video was recorded in it would sound flat and acoustically dead.
When I see and hear Yo Yo Ma playing it in this video with such
beautiful phrasing
http://youtu.be/dZn_VBgkPNY
I realize how far beind the guitar is in this music. Nevermind the
flowery & flamboyant Ponce arr., at least Segovia in his own unique way
sings out the melodic line and shapes it like the cello does. I think
the Chinese girl Lie Jie with the same Ponce version wins here as most
beautful. Almost half a million views on YouTube is not simply because
she is (was) a child prodigy but because of the beauty of the sound of
D major for this music on guitar and how when it it is played to
perfection moves people emotionally.
http://youtu.be/GlXlaOeYl2c
There's also a performance by John Williams from an early-1980's
recording Portrait Of John Williams that's very beautiful and powerful,
it's also in D major with low D tuning minus the Ponce add-ons that
approaches the grandeur of the cello.
http://plum.cream.org/williams/records/040.htm
I believe Williams' arr. is by John Duarte with some modifications. The
Duarte arr. is worth seeking out if only to examine one person's
approach to effectively realizing this music successfully on solo
guitar. There's also a good arr. of the 3rd Cello Suite by Duarte as
well.
http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5191/30/Cello-Suite-No.1,-Bwv100...
http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5192/30/Cello-Suite-No.3,-Bwv100...
When
the C major version gets as many views on YouTube as the popular D
major ones I'll pay attention more. Right now I don't see C major ever
catching on as the key to play this piece on guitar. Except for the
Bach 3rd Solo Violin Sonata BWV1003 and the Andante from the 2nd Solo
Violin Sonata BWV1005 let's leave C major for Giuliani and Sor ;-)
The amount of views just proves nothing.  Look at how many views Lady
Gaga has or the guy farting the national anthem.  The Cmaj version
hasn't been around as nearly long and in the respect of being
stylistically informed in far better and closer to what Bach himself
would have arranged.  It is a different kind of playing mentality and
view of interpretation which clearly you aren't capable of possessing.
Oh please!! The piece in C major is so very weak on the guitar, it
doesn't even approach the power and sonority you get in D major with a
low D tuning. Who cares about stylistically informed? That's so
subjective, plus this is 2010, not 1750 anymore. Either it sounds good
and works or it doesn't. Honestly I play it just as good or better than
Stanley does with my "unstylistically informed" D major John Duarte
arr. (with some of my own modifications) Would you like to hear it? I
would share my recording of it with you but you've already written me
off as an insensitive musician.
By the way I posted the Yo Yo Ma performance link before you did in
this thread. The guitar can achieve the expressiveness of the cello but
not in C major, it's just not going to happen in that key IMO.
I disagree as well as to whether the amount of YT views means
something, Lady Gaga and a national anthem desecration are pop culture
videos that have the potential to go viral very quickly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_video
Classical music videos are different, I think most people who search
for them are genuinely interested in the beauty of the music, the
composers and its performers, each view pretty much counts as something
meaningful. A little known girl from China playing a D major arr. of a
Bach Cello Suite attracting half a million views is not something to
dismiss lightly as you just have.
Denio- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
It's (the prelude) better in D (to me), but the C is part of a
transcription of the entire suite.
Is there a version of the suite in D for guitar?
Douglas Seth
2010-11-01 14:15:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denio
Post by Denio
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string? Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
Here is a video of Stanley playing it himself in expert manner.  He
seems unusally restrained in his use of ornamentation here and no capo
the 1st fret.
http://youtu.be/u2K7sRrlV0U
Add a few low "C's" would probably defeat the purpose or point of what
he was going for.  Thank god he didn't.
I don't like this C major version at all, the playing is correct but
the sound is so thin and there's no resonance, where is the power and
majesty of the cello here? Were it not for the very reverberant space
this video was recorded in it would sound flat and acoustically dead.
When I see and hear Yo Yo Ma playing it in this video with such
beautiful phrasing
http://youtu.be/dZn_VBgkPNY
I realize how far beind the guitar is in this music. Nevermind the
flowery & flamboyant Ponce arr., at least Segovia in his own unique way
sings out the melodic line and shapes it like the cello does. I think
the Chinese girl Lie Jie with the same Ponce version wins here as most
beautful. Almost half a million views on YouTube is not simply because
she is (was) a child prodigy but because of the beauty of the sound of
D major for this music on guitar and how when it it is played to
perfection moves people emotionally.
http://youtu.be/GlXlaOeYl2c
There's also a performance by John Williams from an early-1980's
recording Portrait Of John Williams that's very beautiful and powerful,
it's also in D major with low D tuning minus the Ponce add-ons that
approaches the grandeur of the cello.
http://plum.cream.org/williams/records/040.htm
I believe Williams' arr. is by John Duarte with some modifications. The
Duarte arr. is worth seeking out if only to examine one person's
approach to effectively realizing this music successfully on solo
guitar. There's also a good arr. of the 3rd Cello Suite by Duarte as
well.
http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5191/30/Cello-Suite-No.1,-Bwv100...
http://www.spanishguitar.com/Product/5192/30/Cello-Suite-No.3,-Bwv100...
When
the C major version gets as many views on YouTube as the popular D
major ones I'll pay attention more. Right now I don't see C major ever
catching on as the key to play this piece on guitar. Except for the
Bach 3rd Solo Violin Sonata BWV1003 and the Andante from the 2nd Solo
Violin Sonata BWV1005 let's leave C major for Giuliani and Sor ;-)
The amount of views just proves nothing.  Look at how many views Lady
Gaga has or the guy farting the national anthem.  The Cmaj version
hasn't been around as nearly long and in the respect of being
stylistically informed in far better and closer to what Bach himself
would have arranged.  It is a different kind of playing mentality and
view of interpretation which clearly you aren't capable of possessing.
Oh please!! The piece in C major is so very weak on the guitar, it
doesn't even approach the power and sonority you get in D major with a
low D tuning. Who cares about stylistically informed? That's so
subjective, plus this is 2010, not 1750 anymore. Either it sounds good
and works or it doesn't.
Seriously, under this premise, we should all just say "fuck it" and
anything from any period, anyway we want to as long as it sounds
good. This would mean you could interpret Bach the same as Tarrega.

Honestly I play it just as good or better than
Post by Denio
Stanley does with my "unstylistically informed" D major John Duarte
arr. (with some of my own modifications) Would you like to hear it? I
would share my recording of it with you but you've already written me
off as an insensitive musician.
If you are who I think you are, you are very good player and no doubt
could play it very well and convincingly. I never "wrote you off" as
anything. Of course, I am always interested in listening to different
interpretations even if I don't agree with them.
Post by Denio
By the way I posted the Yo Yo Ma performance link before you did in
this thread. The guitar can achieve the expressiveness of the cello but
not in C major, it's just not going to happen in that key IMO.
I disagree as well as to whether the amount of YT views means
something, Lady Gaga and a national anthem desecration are pop culture
videos that have the potential to go viral very quickly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_video
Classical music videos are different, I think most people who search
for them are genuinely interested in the beauty of the music, the
composers and its performers, each view pretty much counts as something
meaningful. A little known girl from China playing a D major arr. of a
Bach Cello Suite attracting half a million views is not something to
dismiss lightly as you just have.
You do have a good point here.
Post by Denio
Denio- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Tashi
2010-11-04 15:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denio
Oh please!! The piece in C major is so very weak on the guitar, it
doesn't even approach the power and sonority you get in D major with a
low D tuning. Who cares about stylistically informed? That's so
Denio
I've played through Stanley's arrangement of the 1st cello suite and
found it refreshingly splendid! I find the D major arr. to be heavy,
( no cello has a low D) thick, and painfully redundant, as opposed to
the crisp, light, and fluid quality of C major.

The challenge with C major as I understand it from Stanley is with
the prelude, everything else in the suite is so much better in C major
than D major.

Now, if you have the good fortune of owning an 8 string guitar you can
play it in the original key of G major and hear it in all it's glory.
I've heard someone play it on an 8 string without screwing around with
adding lower bass notes. Better yet get yourself a Dresden.
Post by Denio
The guitar can achieve the expressiveness of the cello but
not in C major, it's just not going to happen in that key IMO.
There is no way the guitar can approach the expressiveness (whatever
that means) of the cello! In terms of dynamics and volume, the cello
wins hands down. The only advantage of the guitar over the cello is
the rhythmic precision, because it is a percussive instrument, sustain
in relation to the cello is non existent on the guitar.
Douglas Seth
2010-11-04 18:34:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denio
Oh please!! The piece in C major is so very weak on the guitar, it
doesn't even approach the power and sonority you get in D major with a
low D tuning. Who cares about stylistically informed? That's so
Denio
 I've played through Stanley's arrangement of the 1st cello suite and
found it refreshingly splendid!  I find the D major arr. to be heavy,
( no cello has a low D) thick, and painfully redundant, as opposed to
the crisp, light, and fluid quality of C major.
Tashi,
This was essentially the exact same argument as I made earlier. You
are wasting your breath. I agree, I can live without the heavy,
plodding sound.
 The challenge with C major as I understand it from Stanley is with
the prelude, everything else in the suite is so much better in C major
than D major.
Now, if you have the good fortune of owning an 8 string guitar you can
play it in the original key of G major and hear it in all it's glory.
I've heard someone play it on an 8 string without screwing around with
adding lower bass notes.  Better yet get yourself a Dresden.
I heard it in G major on a 7 string and it sounded really good, but it
has been many years.
Post by Denio
The guitar can achieve the expressiveness of the cello but
not in C major, it's just not going to happen in that key IMO.
  There is no way the guitar can approach the expressiveness (whatever
that means) of the cello!  In terms of dynamics and volume, the cello
wins hands down.  The only advantage of the guitar over the cello is
the rhythmic precision, because it is a percussive instrument, sustain
in relation to the cello is non existent on the guitar.
And the guitar can do more than just "imply" counterpoint too.
Andrew Schulman
2010-11-04 19:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Now, if you have the good fortune of owning an 8 string guitar you can
play it in the original key of G major and hear it in all it's glory...
I'll take this as my cue to jump in with my 2cts.

I've played it through, in the process of making my own version, in G,
A, C, D. This is Bach after all and it is very flexible. I think G
is just too low in the guitar range. A is a little higher of course
but still sounds too low to me. Yes, I know it's in G for the 'cello
but you always have to put it in context of the instrument; it sounds
great on 'cello in G.

I think it works very well in either C or D. There are advantages to
both. Bach himself almost always changed the key when he transcribed
music, his or others (one reason has to do with the range of the
clavier of his time, often the arrangements were from stringed
instruments going to clavier).

I tune my 8-string guitar most of the time to ADEADGBE. D major is
therefore an ideal key and I settled on D for BWV 1007 (I started
years ago with the Duarte version, then made my own).

BTW, G is also a great key for this tuning; I play the 3rd suite, BWV
1009, in G.

Come to think of it, being an 8-string guitarist, that was more like
3cts worth!

Andrew
Slogoin
2010-11-04 20:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
I think it works very well in either C or D.
The ending sucks in C.
Andrew Robinson
2010-11-04 20:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
I think it works very well in either C or D.
  The ending sucks in C.
Todd played it up the neck and used both hands to fret- like a rock
star. It worked really well.
Slogoin
2010-11-04 21:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Robinson
Todd played it up the neck and used
both hands to fret- like a rock
star. It worked really well.
It has to SOUND good, not just look cool.
wollybird
2010-11-04 22:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Robinson
Todd played it up the neck and used
both hands to fret- like a rock
star. It worked really well.
  It has to SOUND good, not just look cool.
Larry, I swear to god you can be such a chuckle head sometimes.
Of course it sounds good. He wouldn't do it for theatrics, for christ
sake. Not quite as good as D, but a lot better than in first position.
Try it.
Slogoin
2010-11-04 23:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by wollybird
Larry, I swear to god you can be such a chuckle head sometimes.
So stating my opinion is being a chuckle head to you? That's being
mature.
Post by wollybird
Of course it sounds good.
To you maybe but not to me.
Post by wollybird
He wouldn't do it for theatrics, for christ sake.
Sounds like that's exactly what you described, a rock star approach
to the problem and not a word about the actual sound and why it's a
problem in C.
Post by wollybird
Not quite as good as D, but a lot better than in first position.
There ya go. Not as good so why do it?
Post by wollybird
Try it.
Been there, done that. It's interesting to read through SY's version
but I would not play it that way. YMMV.
wollybird
2010-11-04 23:17:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by wollybird
Larry, I swear to god you can be such a chuckle head sometimes.
  So stating my opinion is being a chuckle head to you? That's being
mature.
Post by wollybird
Of course it sounds good.
  To you maybe but not to me.
Post by wollybird
He wouldn't do it for theatrics, for christ sake.
  Sounds like that's exactly what you described, a rock star approach
to the problem and not a word about the actual sound and why it's a
problem in C.
Post by wollybird
Not quite as good as D, but a lot better than in first position.
  There ya go. Not as good so why do it?
Post by wollybird
Try it.
  Been there, done that. It's interesting to read through SY's version
but I would not play it that way. YMMV.
You do because the Yates transcription of the suite is in C.
You commented on the sound of the end of the prelude.
Playing it up the neck improves the sound of that section in C.
He used a technique that you see rock players use to adress the
problem.
it worked very well for him
You are just being argumentative, as usual (or maybe you are a chuckle
head?)
Slogoin
2010-11-04 23:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by wollybird
You do because the Yates transcription of the suite is in C.
Uh, yeah... what's your point?
Post by wollybird
You commented on the sound of the end of the prelude.
Yes, it sucks in C.
Post by wollybird
Playing it up the neck improves the sound of that section in C.
Still sucks.
Post by wollybird
He used a technique that you see rock players use to adress the
problem. it worked very well for him
In your opinion. In my opinion it sucks in C.
Post by wollybird
You are just being argumentative, as usual
(or maybe you are a chuckle head?)
No, Wolly, believe it or not I don't care for it in C and there is
no solution to the ending in C that comes close to what it sounds like
in D, IMO.
Andrew Schulman
2010-11-04 22:07:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
I think it works very well in either C or D.
  The ending sucks in C.
I agree the ending works much better in D, that is a big advantage.
You'd have to play the pedal G as third string open, whereas in D you
can use the A 5th string open. Although that G corresponds in
register exactly as the original the A is more effective, at least I
think most people would hear it that way.

Starting in m. 39 I alternate the basses, 5th string A and 8th string
A an octave lower. This matches the octave basses in the beginning,
and that matches the opening of the 5th suite as Bach arranged it for
BWV 995, aka the 3rd Lute suite.

Andrew
Tashi
2010-11-04 22:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
I think it works very well in either C or D.
  The ending sucks in C.
Ok Ok then! Play the damn prelude in D, and the rest of the suite in
C, for God' sake!
Slogoin
2010-11-04 23:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Ok Ok then!  Play the damn prelude in D, and the
rest of the suite in C, for God' sake!
Play it how you like it and I'll play it how I like it.
Tashi
2010-11-05 00:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Ok Ok then!  Play the damn prelude in D, and the
rest of the suite in C, for God' sake!
  Play it how you like it and I'll play it how I like it.
Why don't you play it how I like it, and I'll play it how you like it,
wouldn't it be a better world we live in then? Larry try for once to
make me happy.
Slogoin
2010-11-05 00:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Why don't you play it how I like it,
Because I don't like it your way.
Post by Tashi
 Larry try for once to make me happy.
Not my job.
Steve Freides
2010-11-05 00:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
Post by Tashi
Why don't you play it how I like it,
Because I don't like it your way.
Post by Tashi
Larry try for once to make me happy.
Not my job.
Never argue with a fool, Larry. It makes the fool happy and you
unhappy.

I know that Andrew's version, in D, on an 8-string guitar, which I will
hear one of these Friday nights soon, will be the ne plus ultra, and
then I will be able to die happy.

P.S. - I'm going to arrange this for 6-string classical guitar and
upright bass - that'll solve all the problems. I'm going to rig up a
foot-activated mechanism to play the "D" and "A" string on my upright so
I can play both instruments by myself at the same time.

Or maybe just 6-string guitar and cello.

Or maybe just cello.

-S-
Andrew Schulman
2010-11-05 00:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
I know that Andrew's version, in D, on an 8-string guitar, which I will
hear one of these Friday nights soon, will be the ne plus ultra, and
then I will be able to die happy.
What do you charge for Public Relations work? If I can afford it
you're definitely hired!

Andrew
Steve Freides
2010-11-05 14:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Steve Freides
I know that Andrew's version, in D, on an 8-string guitar, which I
will hear one of these Friday nights soon, will be the ne plus
ultra, and then I will be able to die happy.
What do you charge for Public Relations work? If I can afford it
you're definitely hired!
No kidding, I'm serious about that expectation. All the back and forth
here about what key to do this is will, I'm sure, be very nicely
addressed by the additional two strings on your guitar and your great
familiarity with arranging for your instrument.

You may quote me freely and for free. :)

Change of topic, slightly - I remember analyzing a Beethoven piano piece
in college. I'm pretty sure it was in Carl Schachter's analysis class.
The discussion centered around the fact that Beethoven was working with
a theme in a key and register that would have allowed him, on a modern
piano, to simply state the theme in full without alteration, but because
the piano of his time didn't go quite as high, he had to alter his
composition. The question was, "Should one perform the pice as if
Beethoven had those extra piano keys?" The answer was "No," for reasons
I'm sure I don't need to explain to most people here.

Somehow, all this reminded me of that. I think an 8-string guitar is
simply an instrument that will eliminate the need to worry about much of
what's being discussed here. Rather than answer the question, it will
simply remove it. Now whether _you_ choose to do it in C or D - that's
an interesting question.

I ramble ...

-S-
Post by Andrew Schulman
Andrew
Andrew Schulman
2010-11-05 16:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Somehow, all this reminded me of that.  I think an 8-string guitar is
simply an instrument that will eliminate the need to worry about much of
what's being discussed here.  Rather than answer the question, it will
simply remove it.  Now whether _you_ choose to do it in C or D - that's
an interesting question.
Actually, among the reasons I switched to 8-string guitar was to play
the low A on the second beat of the 3rd measure of BWV 995 (G in the
original). I wanted to play that note! You can't get everything with
this tuning (in terms of Bach, Weiss, Scarlatti, etc.) but you get
enough in terms of extra range to have made it worthwhile.

Andrew
Steve Freides
2010-11-05 17:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Somehow, all this reminded me of that. I think an 8-string guitar is
simply an instrument that will eliminate the need to worry about
much of what's being discussed here. Rather than answer the
question, it will simply remove it. Now whether _you_ choose to do
it in C or D - that's an interesting question.
Actually, among the reasons I switched to 8-string guitar was to play
the low A on the second beat of the 3rd measure of BWV 995 (G in the
original). I wanted to play that note! You can't get everything with
this tuning (in terms of Bach, Weiss, Scarlatti, etc.) but you get
enough in terms of extra range to have made it worthwhile.
Andrew
I imagine you must have played with scale length - are yours a standard
scale length (650 mm, right?) or are they different? I ask only because
I imagine one could, all other things being equal, get a better tone out
of the lowest notes with a longer scale length.

I've got average sized hands (which is to say larger than average for my
sized human) and 650 is all I ever want - I really love playing smaller
guitars in both scale length and body, although it's always a bit of a
tradeoff of ease of playing versus sound, I think.

-S-
Andrew Schulman
2010-11-05 18:16:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
I imagine you must have played with scale length - are yours a standard
scale length (650 mm, right?) or are they different?  I ask only because
I imagine one could, all other things being equal, get a better tone out
of the lowest notes with a longer scale length.
I've got average sized hands (which is to say larger than average for my
sized human) and 650 is all I ever want - I really love playing smaller
guitars in both scale length and body, although it's always a bit of a
tradeoff of ease of playing versus sound, I think.
I've tried several lengths, 640, 650, 652, 655, and 660, and have
liked 652mm best.

Andrew

Charlie
2010-10-31 23:23:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
Here is a video of Stanley playing it himself in expert manner.  He
seems unusally restrained in his use of ornamentation here and no capo
the 1st fret.
http://youtu.be/u2K7sRrlV0U
Add a few low "C's" would probably defeat the purpose or point of what
he was going for.  Thank god he didn't.
What a great rendition, way better than the Segovia / Ponce version.
Stanley nails it.

I do have one reservation though ~ why is Bach always played 'dead
ahead'? why not take a little more liberty to express the feeling?
there is such feeling in this melody, why not a change of color here,
change of feeling there? Check this out...why can't guitar play with
the same feeling?

http://youtu.be/dZn_VBgkPNY

Yes, it's on cello BUT, it is not dead ahead

charlie
Charlie
2010-10-31 23:48:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
Hey, Andrew, so you play this, or any of the cello suites, on your
8-string?  Have you recorded and/or made public your arrangements?
Consider this a request for the next time we're in to see and hear you
play!
I just listened to a YouTube of someone playing Stanley's arrangement
and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure I'd like it a lot better with a few
low C's in there.
Here is a video of Stanley playing it himself in expert manner.  He
seems unusally restrained in his use of ornamentation here and no capo
the 1st fret.
http://youtu.be/u2K7sRrlV0U
Add a few low "C's" would probably defeat the purpose or point of what
he was going for.  Thank god he didn't.
What a great rendition, way better than the Segovia / Ponce version.
Stanley nails it.
I do have one reservation though ~ why is Bach always played 'dead
ahead'?  why not take a little more liberty to express the feeling?
there is such feeling in this melody, why not a change of color here,
change of feeling there?  Check this out...why can't guitar play with
the same feeling?
http://youtu.be/dZn_VBgkPNY
Yes, it's on cello BUT, it is not dead ahead
charlie- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Seth, so sorry hahaha your post didn't show up here until after i
made my post! I pressed the send button then your post arrived. I
love Yoyo's rendition and do feel guitar could accompish the same
texture.

Charlie
Stanley Yates
2010-11-01 00:06:23 UTC
Permalink
"Douglas Seth" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:9c9f6dc8-72f3-498b-8b0d-***@a37g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...

Here is a video of Stanley playing it himself in expert manner. He
seems unusally restrained in his use of ornamentation here and no capo
the 1st fret.

--------------------------------

Probably becasue I was reading a piece I hadn't had time to practice for a
while on a guitar I'd never played before and had to do it in one take on
somone else's dime!
sy
William D Clinger
2010-11-01 22:18:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Lots of composing going on here - tough to call it arranging
http://youtu.be/CyPvr8AKVJQ
The arrangement didn't bother me so much as Segovia's
rubato. What's odd is that Ma's rubato didn't bother
me a bit.

Trying to figure out why, I discovered that you can
stomp your foot in time to Segovia's performance
throughout, excepting only the cadences at middle
and end. Everywhere else, he either delays by a
whole stomp or catches up quickly. In my opinion,
the overall effect sounds more like missed notes
than expressive rubato. I'd call it "roboto".

Ma's rubato is more organic, less robotic.

The opinions expressed above are mine alone, and
may not reflect the views of any sentient being.

Will
Slogoin
2010-11-01 23:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by William D Clinger
The opinions expressed above
are mine alone, and may not reflect
the views of any sentient being.
Reflecting on the above...
Andrew Schulman
2010-11-02 05:00:04 UTC
Permalink
...I discovered that you can
stomp your foot in time to Segovia's performance
throughout...
In the Baroque period foot stomping was developed to it's highest
level by Frederick William I of Prussia. Just thought you'd want to
know. (Very few people survived the stomping which was called The
King's Allemande).

Andrew
William D Clinger
2010-11-04 14:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
In the Baroque period foot stomping was developed to it's highest
level by Frederick William I of Prussia. Just thought you'd want to
know. (Very few people survived the stomping which was called The
King's Allemande).
I didn't know about that.

But I knew about Jean-Baptiste Lully, whose foot-stomping
also proved fatal.

Will
Steve Freides
2010-11-04 15:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by William D Clinger
Post by Andrew Schulman
In the Baroque period foot stomping was developed to it's highest
level by Frederick William I of Prussia. Just thought you'd want to
know. (Very few people survived the stomping which was called The
King's Allemande).
I didn't know about that.
But I knew about Jean-Baptiste Lully, whose foot-stomping
also proved fatal.
Will
Wasn't it stick stomping that proved fatal? He banged his stick on the
ground, missed and hit his foot, and the wound got infected. That's how
I remember learning this story.

-S-
William D Clinger
2010-11-04 16:11:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Wasn't it stick stomping that proved fatal? He banged his stick on the
ground, missed and hit his foot, and the wound got infected. That's how
I remember learning this story.
You remember aright, but stomping your foot is a foot stomping,
no matter whether you stomp that foot with the floor or with a
stick.

Lully was stomping his stick with the floor before he stomped
the stick with his foot. But you can't stomp a stick with your foot
without stomping your foot with the stick: see Newton's third
law.

Will
Andrew Schulman
2010-11-04 15:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by William D Clinger
Post by Andrew Schulman
In the Baroque period foot stomping was developed to it's highest
level by Frederick William I of Prussia.  Just thought you'd want to
know.  (Very few people survived the stomping which was called The
King's Allemande).
I didn't know about that.
But I knew about Jean-Baptiste Lully, whose foot-stomping
also proved fatal.
He just did that to make the players happy.

Andrew
Tashi
2010-11-04 15:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by William D Clinger
The opinions expressed above are mine alone, and
may not reflect the views of any sentient being.
Will
Oh, finally we have it from the horse's mouth, what we all have
suspected is true........ Clinger is not a sentient being.
Slogoin
2010-11-04 16:36:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Clinger is not a sentient being.
Yet.
Richard Jernigan
2010-11-02 01:54:26 UTC
Permalink
While visiting Angkor in Cambodia four years ago Larisa and I attended
a "Free 'Cello Concert" advertised by a large sign on the lawn of an
auditorium next to Le Meridien in Siem Reap. We knew the concert would
be the attraction for a pitch to support the children's hospitals
founded and run by the Swiss physician Dr. Beat Richner.

After a dozen years in Asia and the Pacific, Western art music had
occasionally seemed incongruous with the surroundings. I found myself
listening less and less to Euro/American "Classical" music, and more
and more to Asian classical forms.

Richner opened the concert with this prelude. It was clear that he had
spent a lifetime with it. He made the 'cello sing. The performance
was, to my ear, better than Yo-Yo Ma's linked in this thread. It went
straight to my heart. Larisa was surprised to turn and see the tears
flowing freely down my face. A squeeze of the hand reassured her.

The beauty and sincerity of Richner's performance immediately
established my respect and trust. Richner had a sad tale to tell.
Seventy percent of people tested in Cambodia are positive for
tuberculosis. Not all cases are active, but when a child falls ill,
the predominant complication is the activation of TB. Before the Khmer
Rouge, Cambodia had the best public health system in Southeast Asia.
Afterward, there were 14 physicians left in the whole country.

Film clips of the three hospitals Richner had founded and short
speeches were interspersed with other classics of the 'cello
repertoire, all played with feeling, taste and virtuosity. It's the
only time in the last 20 years I have contributed to a charity without
asking to see their financial statement. The Bach was credential
enough.

RNJ
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