Discussion:
Observation of University trained CG students
(too old to reply)
tooly
2007-09-17 14:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Went to a CG department recital at my local college...and to be honest, the
preformances were terrible. I kept thinking to myself of all the work these
'advanced' students had put into the instrument. Some seemed technically
accurate...but then there's that old darned thing I keep reading about on
this NG...'musicality'. I think some of the students could just as well
have been working a typewriter placing notes adeptly...but somehow missing
the point of the words and ideas that should have been coming together like
poetry.

Two things I came away with. First, traditional classical music on the
guitar is something that cannot be played 'moderatetly well' and come out
musically attractive. Second, I continue to be plagued with the notion that
some people are simply born with talent and some not...and all the
blood,sweat, and tears demanded of such a instrument could be investment
gone awry for those simply ungifted. ?

For all the technical difficulty of this music and perhaps some admiration
inspired for the sheer tackling of higher order, I would have been far more
entertained watching a Chet Atkins resounding little tunes like 'Glow Worm'
with a musicality that was simply mesmerizing. Musicality...gotta be in
one's bones I suppose.
Lutemann
2007-09-17 15:29:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by tooly
Went to a CG department recital at my local college...and to be honest, the
preformances were terrible. I kept thinking to myself of all the work these
'advanced' students had put into the instrument. Some seemed technically
accurate...but then there's that old darned thing I keep reading about on
this NG...'musicality'. I think some of the students could just as well
have been working a typewriter placing notes adeptly...but somehow missing
the point of the words and ideas that should have been coming together like
poetry.
Two things I came away with. First, traditional classical music on the
guitar is something that cannot be played 'moderatetly well' and come out
musically attractive. Second, I continue to be plagued with the notion that
some people are simply born with talent and some not...and all the
blood,sweat, and tears demanded of such a instrument could be investment
gone awry for those simply ungifted. ?
For all the technical difficulty of this music and perhaps some admiration
inspired for the sheer tackling of higher order, I would have been far more
entertained watching a Chet Atkins resounding little tunes like 'Glow Worm'
with a musicality that was simply mesmerizing. Musicality...gotta be in
one's bones I suppose.
Post by tooly
Musicality...gotta be in
one's bones I suppose. >>

No , musicality must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Andrew Schulman
2007-09-17 16:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
No , musicality must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.

Andrew
C***@hotmail.com
2007-09-18 05:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Lutemann
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew
Maybe my earliest memory was trying to capture the sound of running
water when I was about 4 years old. They thought it was funny while I
was having a fit. I was very attraacted to that sound. I knew you
could hear the sound of the beach with a large seashell.

That is a karge music lesson in itself:

"You can catch running water"

Che'
C***@hotmail.com
2007-09-18 05:30:02 UTC
Permalink
"You can't catch running water"
Che'
Raptor
2007-09-18 13:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Maybe my earliest memory was trying to capture the sound of running
water when I was about 4 years old. They thought it was funny while I
was having a fit. I was very attraacted to that sound. I knew you
could hear the sound of the beach with a large seashell.
"You can't catch running water"
Che'
Che' - Ever wonder which of the senses most positively provokes
emotional response?

mark
Jez
2007-09-18 14:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Maybe my earliest memory was trying to capture the sound of running
water when I was about 4 years old. They thought it was funny while I
was having a fit. I was very attraacted to that sound. I knew you
could hear the sound of the beach with a large seashell.
"You can't catch running water"
Che'
Che' - Ever wonder which of the senses most positively provokes
emotional response?
Well, in my case, Smells and Sounds.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.", Albert Einstein
Steve Freides
2007-09-18 15:27:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Lutemann
No , musicality must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew
I think musicality can be learned - whether it can be taught is a
closely related but nonetheless separate issue. Speaking for myself,
while I feel I've been able to tell a musical from a non-musical
performance for a long time, I think I'm always, albeit slowly,
improving my own performances in that regard, and I hope this learning
never stops. Sorry if that sounds trite or clichéd but it's true for
me.

I highly recommend a little book by Josef Lhevinne

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Lh%C3%A9vinne

on this subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Principles-Pianoforte-Playing-Lhevinne/dp/0486228207

50 pages, $5 - money well spent for anyone who plays any instrument or
aspires to.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
Carlos Barrientos
2007-09-18 16:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Steve Freides wrote:
--
Carlos Barrientos
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Lutemann
No , musicality must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew
I think musicality can be learned - whether it can be taught is a
closely related but nonetheless separate issue. Speaking for myself,
while I feel I've been able to tell a musical from a non-musical
performance for a long time, I think I'm always, albeit slowly,
improving my own performances in that regard, and I hope this learning
never stops. Sorry if that sounds trite or clichéd but it's true for
me.
I highly recommend a little book by Josef Lhevinne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Lh%C3%A9vinne
http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Principles-Pianoforte-Playing-Lhevinne/dp/0486228207
50 pages, $5 - money well spent for anyone who plays any instrument or
aspires to.
-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
AN ABSOLUTE MUST!!!
e***@yahoo.com
2007-09-23 18:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Steve Freides
2007-09-25 15:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for reminding me - my 15-year-old son, who is a brass player,
will be the next to read this. Glad it was helpful to you. It really
ought to be required reading of every musician, at the very least every
classical musician.

-S-
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Lutemann
No , musicality must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew
I think musicality can be learned - whether it can be taught is a
closely related but nonetheless separate issue. Speaking for myself,
while I feel I've been able to tell a musical from a non-musical
performance for a long time, I think I'm always, albeit slowly,
improving my own performances in that regard, and I hope this learning
never stops. Sorry if that sounds trite or clichéd but it's true for
me.
I highly recommend a little book by Josef Lhevinne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Lh%C3%A9vinne
http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Principles-Pianoforte-Playing-Lhevinne/dp...
50 pages, $5 - money well spent for anyone who plays any instrument or
aspires to.
-S-http://www.kbnj.com
.
.
Steve,
Post by Steve Freides
I highly recommend a little book by Josef Lhevinne
Thank you for recommending this book. I ordered a copy from Amazon.
I started reading it as soon as it arrived. It is an important book
probably because of its concise iteration of the basics. The short
section "Indifference To Rests" should resonate with most of us
here.

Ed S.
Lutemann
2007-09-23 13:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Lutemann
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew>>>>
In most cases musicality must be taught for it to develop. I will
agree that not everyone can learn it. Most guitar teachers don't
understand what musicality is and it is rarely taught on the guitar.
This is why we have the likes of JW and David Russell and Elliot Fisk.
Raptor
2007-09-23 15:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Re: university guitar programs, if it's not already been done, it
would be interesting to write a dissertation focused upon the history
of teaching/mentoring in performance instruments, contrasting the
present university system and its antecedents with other variants.

I've never attended one, but I would imagine a student matriculates to
a conservatory to (a) acquire a degree and (2) to entrust his/her
further formation to an artist/professor in residence. (Which is not
to ignore as well, the mercenaries who largely just want to be able to
say they studied with "so-and-so," as if that conveys by divine grace
some sort of privilege nearing apostolic succession...)

The formation of a musician cannot depend upon completing the
requirements for a degree. We can all name dozens of great composers
and performers who never set foot in a university as they're
understood today. But a pedagogy does appear to have been grafted
into degree-granting programs which has proven successful as an
academic mean. At least the legions of students borrowing huge bucks
to attend them and schools anxious to receive that same money think
so. But I still have to wonder, given autobiographical accounts such
as Kurtz has written about his experience, why so many kids start
programs and then punt when they realize they're not ever going to be
the next John Williams. Unfortunately, I suspect that assessment
could be made of most before they ever cross the doorway into the
financial aid office. And even if they do become great artists, and
many do, the collateral issues attending successful career management
seem overwhelming. So much so, I wonder whether learning marketing
isn't more important to their careers than learning music theory?

Sunday morning musing while listening to a great guitarist who never
attending university.

mark
Raptor
2007-09-23 15:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Re: university guitar programs, if it's not already been done, it
would be interesting to write a dissertation focused upon the history
of teaching/mentoring in performance instruments, contrasting the
present university system and its antecedents with other variants.

I've never attended one, but I would imagine a student matriculates
to
a conservatory to (a) acquire a degree and (2) to entrust his/her
further formation to an artist/professor in residence. (Which is not
to ignore as well, the mercenaries who largely just want to be able
to
say they studied with "so-and-so," as if that conveys by divine grace
some sort of privilege nearing apostolic succession...)


The formation of a musician cannot depend upon completing the
requirements for a degree. We can all name dozens of great composers
and performers who never set foot in a university as they're
understood today. But a pedagogy does appear to have been grafted
into degree-granting programs which has proven successful as an
academic mean. At least the legions of students borrowing huge bucks
to attend them and schools anxious to receive that same money think
so. But I still have to wonder, given autobiographical accounts such
as Kurtz has written about his experience, why so many kids start
programs and then punt when they realize they're not ever going to be
the next John Williams. Unfortunately, I suspect that assessment
could be made of most before they ever cross the doorway into the
financial aid office. And even if they do become great artists, and
many do, the collateral issues attending successful career management
seem overwhelming. So much so, I wonder whether learning marketing
isn't more important to their careers than learning music theory?


Sunday morning musing while listening to a great guitarist who never
attended a university.


mark
Alain Reiher
2007-09-25 14:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by Lutemann
must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
Post by Lutemann
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew>>>>
In most cases musicality must be taught for it to develop. I will
agree that not everyone can learn it. Most guitar teachers don't
understand what musicality is and it is rarely taught on the guitar.
This is why we have the likes of JW and David Russell and Elliot Fisk.
I am not sure about that ... I think musicality is the only thing left for
the musician to developp throughout his life ... after all ... generosity -
Empathy - sensitivity could be taught too! What is musicality if not the
sensitivity of the musician in response to the music. Of course this
sensitivity could be dubbed "wrong" ... Is it related to technique ... to
sound approach, pharsing, articulation ... lack of understanding of music
theory, analysis, harmony, knowledge of form, knowledge of history...all the
above ... musicality is the result as perceived by the audience and one the
word through which they express their appraisal.

Alain
e***@yahoo.com
2007-09-25 15:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Lutemann
Post by Lutemann
must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
Post by Lutemann
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew>>>>
In most cases musicality must be taught for it to develop. I will
agree that not everyone can learn it. Most guitar teachers don't
understand what musicality is and it is rarely taught on the guitar.
This is why we have the likes of JW and David Russell and Elliot Fisk.
I am not sure about that ... I think musicality is the only thing left for
the musician to developp throughout his life ... after all ... generosity -
Empathy - sensitivity could be taught too! What is musicality if not the
sensitivity of the musician in response to the music. Of course this
sensitivity could be dubbed "wrong" ... Is it related to technique ... to
sound approach, pharsing, articulation ... lack of understanding of music
theory, analysis, harmony, knowledge of form, knowledge of history...all the
above ... musicality is the result as perceived by the audience and one the
word through which they express their appraisal.
Alain
Alain,

I found this qoute in a book review in the Sunday paper. Book,
Vivaldi's Virgins" (Barbara Quick), is fiction, about the Ospedale
della Pieta orphanage for girls in Venice where Vivaldi taught. It's
not really about the real people, although the Anna Maria is the
narrator. The author must have some connection to music.

"I've come to believe that music is the one companion, the one
teacher, the one parent, the one friend who will never abandon me.
Every effort I give to it is rewarded. It never spurns my love, it
never leaves my questions unanswered. I give, and it gives back to
me. I drink, and - like the fountain in the Persian fairytale - it
never runs dry. I play, and it tells me my feelings, and it always
speaks the truth."

Ed S.
Alcibiades
2007-09-25 16:35:56 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of musicality, I again heard/saw the glorious Ana Vidovic
last night. Her musicality has now caught up with her technical
brilliance. Amazing.
Tashi
2007-09-25 23:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Speaking of musicality, I again heard/saw the glorious Ana Vidovic
last night. Her musicality has now caught up with her technical
brilliance. Amazing.
What guitar was she playing?
MT
Alcibiades
2007-09-26 04:02:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Alcibiades
Speaking of musicality, I again heard/saw the glorious Ana Vidovic
last night. Her musicality has now caught up with her technical
brilliance. Amazing.
What guitar was she playing?
MT
Redgate.
e***@yahoo.com
2007-09-28 18:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Speaking of musicality, I again heard/saw the glorious Ana Vidovic
last night. Her musicality has now caught up with her technical
brilliance. Amazing.
Ana Vidovic is performing in NYC tonight and tomorrow. She is also
giving a masterclass around noon Saturday. I just can't make it up to
NYC this weekend. Just as well, I always seem to spend $150 - $200
without blinking on any NYC trip.

BTW, did you buy Ana's new Naxos CD "Moreno Torroba, Guitar Music,
1"? She has given up the quest for speed and settled down to the
quest for infinite musical interpretation and expression.
Steven Bornfeld
2007-09-28 20:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Alcibiades
Speaking of musicality, I again heard/saw the glorious Ana Vidovic
last night. Her musicality has now caught up with her technical
brilliance. Amazing.
Ana Vidovic is performing in NYC tonight and tomorrow. She is also
giving a masterclass around noon Saturday. I just can't make it up to
NYC this weekend. Just as well, I always seem to spend $150 - $200
without blinking on any NYC trip.
BTW, did you buy Ana's new Naxos CD "Moreno Torroba, Guitar Music,
1"? She has given up the quest for speed and settled down to the
quest for infinite musical interpretation and expression.
Sounds like good news to me!

Steve
Alain Reiher
2007-09-25 23:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Lutemann
Post by Lutemann
must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
Post by Lutemann
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew>>>>
In most cases musicality must be taught for it to develop. I will
agree that not everyone can learn it. Most guitar teachers don't
understand what musicality is and it is rarely taught on the guitar.
This is why we have the likes of JW and David Russell and Elliot Fisk.
I am not sure about that ... I think musicality is the only thing left for
the musician to developp throughout his life ... after all ... generosity -
Empathy - sensitivity could be taught too! What is musicality if not the
sensitivity of the musician in response to the music. Of course this
sensitivity could be dubbed "wrong" ... Is it related to technique ... to
sound approach, pharsing, articulation ... lack of understanding of music
theory, analysis, harmony, knowledge of form, knowledge of history...all the
above ... musicality is the result as perceived by the audience and one the
word through which they express their appraisal.
Alain
Alain,
I found this qoute in a book review in the Sunday paper. Book,
Vivaldi's Virgins" (Barbara Quick), is fiction, about the Ospedale
della Pieta orphanage for girls in Venice where Vivaldi taught. It's
not really about the real people, although the Anna Maria is the
narrator. The author must have some connection to music.
"I've come to believe that music is the one companion, the one
teacher, the one parent, the one friend who will never abandon me.
Every effort I give to it is rewarded. It never spurns my love, it
never leaves my questions unanswered. I give, and it gives back to
me. I drink, and - like the fountain in the Persian fairytale - it
never runs dry. I play, and it tells me my feelings, and it always
speaks the truth."
Ed S.
Beautiful quote! I just had a little eyebrow hicup when I read "I give and
it gives back to me" due maybe to my own experience ...I find that
classical guitar demands a lot and ... and ... I won't say it.
But it certainly tells me my feelings and yes ... it always speaks (sound)
the truth and yes it is the one companion ...
Doing the dishes I had some more thought comming to my mind about that topic
... Like to be human ... musicality is indeed is an inexhaustible quest to
find the gold inside. There are millions of books about the nature, the
psychology of the human mind, behaviors and all, but do they hold the answer
to what makes us truly human?
It would be interesting (or not, could be also quite boring, I do not know)
to come up with a definition of musicality if we ever want to go somewhere
with this topic!

Alain
Lutemann
2007-09-29 14:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Lutemann
Post by Lutemann
must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
Post by Lutemann
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew>>>>
In most cases musicality must be taught for it to develop. I will
agree that not everyone can learn it. Most guitar teachers don't
understand what musicality is and it is rarely taught on the guitar.
This is why we have the likes of JW and David Russell and Elliot Fisk.
I am not sure about that ... I think musicality is the only thing left for
the musician to developp throughout his life ... after all ... generosity -
Empathy - sensitivity could be taught too! What is musicality if not the
sensitivity of the musician in response to the music. Of course this
sensitivity could be dubbed "wrong" ... Is it related to technique ... to
sound approach, pharsing, articulation ... lack of understanding of music
theory, analysis, harmony, knowledge of form, knowledge of history...all the
above ... musicality is the result as perceived by the audience and one the
word through which they express their appraisal.
Alain
Alain,
I found this qoute in a book review in the Sunday paper. Book,
Vivaldi's Virgins" (Barbara Quick), is fiction, about the Ospedale
della Pieta orphanage for girls in Venice where Vivaldi taught. It's
not really about the real people, although the Anna Maria is the
narrator. The author must have some connection to music.
"I've come to believe that music is the one companion, the one
teacher, the one parent, the one friend who will never abandon me.
Every effort I give to it is rewarded. It never spurns my love, it
never leaves my questions unanswered. I give, and it gives back to
me. I drink, and - like the fountain in the Persian fairytale - it
never runs dry. I play, and it tells me my feelings, and it always
speaks the truth."
Ed S.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Ed, I usually don't like that Romantic schlock, but that is a good
quote.
Carlos Barrientos
2007-09-29 14:55:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Lutemann
Post by Lutemann
must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
Post by Lutemann
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew>>>>
In most cases musicality must be taught for it to develop. I will
agree that not everyone can learn it. Most guitar teachers don't
understand what musicality is and it is rarely taught on the guitar.
This is why we have the likes of JW and David Russell and Elliot Fisk.
I am not sure about that ... I think musicality is the only thing left for
the musician to developp throughout his life ... after all ... generosity -
Empathy - sensitivity could be taught too! What is musicality if not the
sensitivity of the musician in response to the music. Of course this
sensitivity could be dubbed "wrong" ... Is it related to technique ... to
sound approach, pharsing, articulation ... lack of understanding of music
theory, analysis, harmony, knowledge of form, knowledge of history...all the
above ... musicality is the result as perceived by the audience and one the
word through which they express their appraisal.
Alain
Alain,
I found this qoute in a book review in the Sunday paper. Book,
Vivaldi's Virgins" (Barbara Quick), is fiction, about the Ospedale
della Pieta orphanage for girls in Venice where Vivaldi taught. It's
not really about the real people, although the Anna Maria is the
narrator. The author must have some connection to music.
"I've come to believe that music is the one companion, the one
teacher, the one parent, the one friend who will never abandon me.
Every effort I give to it is rewarded. It never spurns my love, it
never leaves my questions unanswered. I give, and it gives back to
me. I drink, and - like the fountain in the Persian fairytale - it
never runs dry. I play, and it tells me my feelings, and it always
speaks the truth."
Ed S.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Ed, I usually don't like that Romantic schlock, but that is a good
quote.
DITTO!
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
e***@yahoo.com
2007-09-29 15:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Lutemann
Post by Lutemann
must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
Post by Lutemann
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew>>>>
In most cases musicality must be taught for it to develop. I will
agree that not everyone can learn it. Most guitar teachers don't
understand what musicality is and it is rarely taught on the guitar.
This is why we have the likes of JW and David Russell and Elliot Fisk.
I am not sure about that ... I think musicality is the only thing left for
the musician to developp throughout his life ... after all ... generosity -
Empathy - sensitivity could be taught too! What is musicality if not the
sensitivity of the musician in response to the music. Of course this
sensitivity could be dubbed "wrong" ... Is it related to technique ... to
sound approach, pharsing, articulation ... lack of understanding of music
theory, analysis, harmony, knowledge of form, knowledge of history...all the
above ... musicality is the result as perceived by the audience and one the
word through which they express their appraisal.
Alain
Alain,
I found this qoute in a book review in the Sunday paper. Book,
Vivaldi's Virgins" (Barbara Quick), is fiction, about the Ospedale
della Pieta orphanage for girls in Venice where Vivaldi taught. It's
not really about the real people, although the Anna Maria is the
narrator. The author must have some connection to music.
"I've come to believe that music is the one companion, the one
teacher, the one parent, the one friend who will never abandon me.
Every effort I give to it is rewarded. It never spurns my love, it
never leaves my questions unanswered. I give, and it gives back to
me. I drink, and - like the fountain in the Persian fairytale - it
never runs dry. I play, and it tells me my feelings, and it always
speaks the truth."
Ed S.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Ed, I usually don't like that Romantic schlock, but that is a good
quote.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
It is schlock, for sure, but don't you ever feel a special bond with
the entire gestalt of learning and playing music on an instrument?
Lutemann
2007-09-29 14:36:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Lutemann
Post by Lutemann
must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
Post by Lutemann
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
Andrew>>>>
In most cases musicality must be taught for it to develop. I will
agree that not everyone can learn it. Most guitar teachers don't
understand what musicality is and it is rarely taught on the guitar.
This is why we have the likes of JW and David Russell and Elliot Fisk.
I am not sure about that ... I think musicality is the only thing left for
the musician to developp throughout his life ... after all ... generosity -
Empathy - sensitivity could be taught too! What is musicality if not the
sensitivity of the musician in response to the music. Of course this
sensitivity could be dubbed "wrong" ... Is it related to technique ... to
sound approach, pharsing, articulation ... lack of understanding of music
theory, analysis, harmony, knowledge of form, knowledge of history...all the
above ... musicality is the result as perceived by the audience and one the
word through which they express their appraisal.
Alain
Alain, to a great extent nothing can be taught. You can't get a
student with slow reflexes to play extremely fast, for example. You
can teach students to reach their potential if you know what you are
doing.
Stanley Yates
2007-09-23 17:27:38 UTC
Permalink
For what it's worth I think musicality can be taught - how and where to
articulate phrases, note-grouping, types and applications of rubato,
dynamic/rhythmic response to harmonic tension, accent, melodic expression,
use of expressive silence, style, etc.. - of course within the ability of
any particular student to absorb it. In fact I've thought for a long time
about writing a book/method on the topic since there still seems to be a
perception that these things are a mysterious inborn gift given to only a
few.

What I don't think can be taught is artistry - the ability to break the
"rules" and produce something transcendent (rather than unintelligible!). SY
Raptor
2007-09-23 18:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Please write it, Stanley.

mark
Lutemann
2007-09-24 00:11:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
For what it's worth I think musicality can be taught - how and where to
articulate phrases, note-grouping, types and applications of rubato,
dynamic/rhythmic response to harmonic tension, accent, melodic expression,
use of expressive silence, style, etc.. - of course within the ability of
any particular student to absorb it. In fact I've thought for a long time
about writing a book/method on the topic since there still seems to be a
perception that these things are a mysterious inborn gift given to only a
few.
What I don't think can be taught is artistry - the ability to break the
"rules" and produce something transcendent (rather than unintelligible!). SY
Well said Stanley and you should write the book. BTW, have read Aaron
Shearer's 3rd book? He gets into a bit music interpretation 101.
There is as very funny cut on the included CD where the performer
plays a famous Sor study three times: once with no interpretation
(like JW), once with illogical interpretation (imagine Segovia on
acid), and once with a logical interpretation.
f***@yahoo.com
2007-09-24 15:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stanley,
I agree with you that musicality can be taught. I always suggest to
parents that they have their children start out with Dalcroze
Eurythmics before learning an instrument so the student can have the
tools to respond to " dynamic/rhythmic response to harmonic tension,
etc..." It is very important to learn to feel such things as you
mention via large physical movements.
Dalcroze is great for college students, too!

mark
Post by Stanley Yates
For what it's worth I think musicality can be taught - how and where to
articulate phrases, note-grouping, types and applications of rubato,
dynamic/rhythmic response to harmonic tension, accent, melodic expression,
use of expressive silence, style, etc.. - of course within the ability of
any particular student to absorb it. In fact I've thought for a long time
about writing a book/method on the topic since there still seems to be a
perception that these things are a mysterious inborn gift given to only a
few.
What I don't think can be taught is artistry - the ability to break the
"rules" and produce something transcendent (rather than unintelligible!). SY
Stanley Yates
2007-09-25 04:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mark,

I agree, Dalcroze is excellent for internalizing musical "shapes" (isn't it
amazing how we always describe music in terms of physical movement...) and
this provides an intuitive, internalized feeling for music that is not
exactly what I was getting at in my post - though it's probably even more
important.

Stanley
Post by f***@yahoo.com
Hi Stanley,
I agree with you that musicality can be taught. I always suggest to
parents that they have their children start out with Dalcroze
Eurythmics before learning an instrument so the student can have the
tools to respond to " dynamic/rhythmic response to harmonic tension,
etc..." It is very important to learn to feel such things as you
mention via large physical movements.
Dalcroze is great for college students, too!
mark
Post by Stanley Yates
For what it's worth I think musicality can be taught - how and where to
articulate phrases, note-grouping, types and applications of rubato,
dynamic/rhythmic response to harmonic tension, accent, melodic expression,
use of expressive silence, style, etc.. - of course within the ability of
any particular student to absorb it. In fact I've thought for a long time
about writing a book/method on the topic since there still seems to be a
perception that these things are a mysterious inborn gift given to only a
few.
What I don't think can be taught is artistry - the ability to break the
"rules" and produce something transcendent (rather than unintelligible!). SY
Yeswehavenobananas
2007-09-26 01:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
For what it's worth I think musicality can be taught - how and where to
articulate phrases, note-grouping, types and applications of rubato,
dynamic/rhythmic response to harmonic tension, accent, melodic expression,
use of expressive silence, style, etc.. - of course within the ability of
any particular student to absorb it. In fact I've thought for a long time
about writing a book/method on the topic since there still seems to be a
perception that these things are a mysterious inborn gift given to only a
few.
What I don't think can be taught is artistry - the ability to break the
"rules" and produce something transcendent (rather than unintelligible!). SY
I would like to add encouragement too.
b***@rock.com
2007-09-26 10:52:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
I emphatically agree. Musicians of all types, not just classical
guitarists, have hits OBSESSION with "difficulty," as if only
difficult, complex music were worth playing or listening to. Of
course, I admire somebody like Segovia and his staggering virtuosity.
He blows you away with his ability to effortlessly play incredibly
difficult pieces.

But what about music... what music is, what it's supposed to do... to
convey emotion through a medium. Personally, just for listening, I'd
much rather listen to Chet Atkins playing his classical during his
later years. It's so perfect, so flawless: a single note almost brings
tears to your eyes. THAT is music. Or, instead of a pianist pounding
the keyboard with all 10 fingers playing some "difficult" work, listen
to Henry Mancini's piano solos. Simple, single-note melodies, but
played with such mastery and delicate timing and tonal control, that
they simply bring your universe to a standstill. THAT, to me, is
music. And that's what isn't taught in college music programs.

Ron M.
Alain Reiher
2007-09-26 14:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@rock.com
Post by Andrew Schulman
Depends on the definition I guess. I don't think that musicality can
be taught, music skills can be taught.
I emphatically agree. Musicians of all types, not just classical
guitarists, have hits OBSESSION with "difficulty," as if only
difficult, complex music were worth playing or listening to. Of
course, I admire somebody like Segovia and his staggering virtuosity.
He blows you away with his ability to effortlessly play incredibly
difficult pieces.
But what about music... what music is, what it's supposed to do... to
convey emotion through a medium. Personally, just for listening, I'd
much rather listen to Chet Atkins playing his classical during his
later years. It's so perfect, so flawless: a single note almost brings
tears to your eyes. THAT is music. Or, instead of a pianist pounding
the keyboard with all 10 fingers playing some "difficult" work, listen
to Henry Mancini's piano solos. Simple, single-note melodies, but
played with such mastery and delicate timing and tonal control, that
they simply bring your universe to a standstill. THAT, to me, is
music. And that's what isn't taught in college music programs.
Ron M.
I agree ... but there is more to music than just tears and simplicity! Of
course nothing is more difficult in music than composing a simple piece ...
Take the infamous Eric Satie gymnopedie for example. Pure simple
delight.Emotion do play a role in the judgment we put on someone's
musicality. Our emotions or his emotions? Both? In a way that is what makes
musicality is a tricky subject, so many factors are involved that it is
difficult to unmeshed the subjective from the objective and to come up with
a clear definition of what it exactly is. Is it the ability to play a piece
in such a way that its emotional content will be always perceivalble by the
subjects that are lestenning to it. (That would be a CD!)
Is it the capacity of the musician to recreate at will a climate in which he
can mesmerise his public, offering moment of grace and delight as well as
stiring their hearts with all kind of musical emotions?
What makes the concenssus on someone's musicality? I think this cannot ever
be answered.
We could ask the same question about the why and what of someone's
personality and we would be met with the same difficulty if we were asked to
define what we mean when we say that someone is very artistic!

Alain
GuitarsWeB
2007-09-17 21:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by tooly
Went to a CG department recital at my local college...and to be honest, the
preformances were terrible. I kept thinking to myself of all the work these
'advanced' students had put into the instrument. Some seemed technically
accurate...but then there's that old darned thing I keep reading about on
this NG...'musicality'. I think some of the students could just as well
have been working a typewriter placing notes adeptly...but somehow missing
the point of the words and ideas that should have been coming together like
poetry.
Two things I came away with. First, traditional classical music on the
guitar is something that cannot be played 'moderatetly well' and come out
musically attractive. Second, I continue to be plagued with the notion that
some people are simply born with talent and some not...and all the
blood,sweat, and tears demanded of such a instrument could be investment
gone awry for those simply ungifted. ?
For all the technical difficulty of this music and perhaps some admiration
inspired for the sheer tackling of higher order, I would have been far more
entertained watching a Chet Atkins resounding little tunes like 'Glow Worm'
with a musicality that was simply mesmerizing. Musicality...gotta be in
one's bones I suppose.
Post by tooly
Musicality...gotta be in
one's bones I suppose. >>
No , musicality must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
No , musicality must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
college guitar programs are less than worthless. >>>>>>>

HOW TRUE!! They need to teach them how to make a living with the
guitar.
Paul McGuffin, Green Valley, Arizona
JacquesMoran
2007-09-18 05:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
No , musicality must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
what does less than worthless mean in a mathematical sense?
Raptor
2007-09-18 13:56:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by JacquesMoran
Post by Lutemann
No , musicality must be taught. Remember the 90% rule. 90+% of all
college guitar programs are less than worthless.
what does less than worthless mean in a mathematical sense?
"Less than worthless" seems a common rhetorical hyperbole meaning,
"harmful," I think.

mark
William D Clinger
2007-09-18 15:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Disclaimer: I am a mathematician and a semanticist,
not an economist.
Post by JacquesMoran
what does less than worthless mean in a mathematical sense?
When we say that a thing has positive worth (is more
than worthless), we mean someone would pay you to
let them take it from you.

When we say that something is less than worthless, we
mean you would pay someone to take it from you.
Post by JacquesMoran
Two things I came away with. First, traditional classical
music on the guitar is something that cannot be played
'moderatetly well' and come out musically attractive.
At the risk of being moderatet, I respectfully disagree,
recognizing that what is musically attractive to you may
not be to me, and vice versa.

Example: A friend of mine brought a copy of Giuliani's
Duo Concertante for flute and guitar, opus 85, to rehearsal
yesterday and suggested we warm up by sight-reading the
thing. Neither of us had ever seen the piece before, so
this was true sight-reading. The first movement was pretty
much the train wreck you'd expect, mostly because I'm not
a good sight-reader outside of first position, but it got
better as we went on. The later movements are mostly in
first position, and I got the hang of playing the notes
that matter most and leaving out the ones that don't. It
began to sound like music and went on to become musically
attractive, even though my playing would not have met the
moderate standard implied by "moderatetly well".

Then we played some twentieth century music moderately
well (we'd seen it before) and it too came out musically
attractive.

Although I agree that our instrument is difficult, you
don't have to be one of the world's greatest guitarists
to make music on it. You have to select music that's
within your ability, of course, which (reading between
its lines) may have been the point of the original post.

Will
e***@yahoo.com
2007-09-18 20:17:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by William D Clinger
Disclaimer: I am a mathematician and a semanticist,
not an economist.
Post by JacquesMoran
what does less than worthless mean in a mathematical sense?
When we say that a thing has positive worth (is more
than worthless), we mean someone would pay you to
let them take it from you.
When we say that something is less than worthless, we
mean you would pay someone to take it from you.
Post by JacquesMoran
Two things I came away with. First, traditional classical
music on the guitar is something that cannot be played
'moderatetly well' and come out musically attractive.
At the risk of being moderatet, I respectfully disagree,
recognizing that what is musically attractive to you may
not be to me, and vice versa.
Example: A friend of mine brought a copy of Giuliani's
Duo Concertante for flute and guitar, opus 85, to rehearsal
yesterday and suggested we warm up by sight-reading the
thing. Neither of us had ever seen the piece before, so
this was true sight-reading. The first movement was pretty
much the train wreck you'd expect, mostly because I'm not
a good sight-reader outside of first position, but it got
better as we went on. The later movements are mostly in
first position, and I got the hang of playing the notes
that matter most and leaving out the ones that don't. It
began to sound like music and went on to become musically
attractive, even though my playing would not have met the
moderate standard implied by "moderatetly well".
Then we played some twentieth century music moderately
well (we'd seen it before) and it too came out musically
attractive.
Although I agree that our instrument is difficult, you
don't have to be one of the world's greatest guitarists
to make music on it. You have to select music that's
within your ability, of course, which (reading between
its lines) may have been the point of the original post.
Will
.
.
Post by William D Clinger
to make music on it. You have to select music that's
within your ability, of course, which (reading between
its lines) may have been the point of the original post.
Good point and I include music a person likes. On the first point,
young people get bullied into keeping a piece in practice when they
know it is beyond their capabilities. Those of us that are older can
just drop a piece and ignore the "no pain, no gain" or "quiter"
admonitions of teachers.

Those of us who dabble in the RCM/ABRSM/TCM world have found that from
the first practical exam a student is expected to play with
musicality, expression. But that is the problem - how to play
musically. What are the rules/guidelines. When we first start out
wre we sure we are at a cadence and need to do a slight retard, to
play differently at the end of a phrase, nope. Doug James did a
workshop on dynamics and expression that presented guidelines Doug
James gleened from reading Czerny. That was my first eye opener. The
guidelines are not universally accepted in CG circles, but we have to
start somewhere, the earlier the better.

Ed S.
a***@yahoo.com
2007-09-18 23:48:18 UTC
Permalink
The initial post for this thread reminds me of a quote from Winston
Churchill: "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all
those others that have been tried."

If you think university trained guitarists are bad, try listening to
most of those who aren't university trained.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Lutemann
2007-09-23 16:05:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by William D Clinger
Disclaimer: I am a mathematician and a semanticist,
not an economist.
Post by JacquesMoran
what does less than worthless mean in a mathematical sense?
When we say that a thing has positive worth (is more
than worthless), we mean someone would pay you to
let them take it from you.
When we say that something is less than worthless, we
mean you would pay someone to take it from you.
Post by JacquesMoran
Two things I came away with. First, traditional classical
music on the guitar is something that cannot be played
'moderatetly well' and come out musically attractive.
At the risk of being moderatet, I respectfully disagree,
recognizing that what is musically attractive to you may
not be to me, and vice versa.
Example: A friend of mine brought a copy of Giuliani's
Duo Concertante for flute and guitar, opus 85, to rehearsal
yesterday and suggested we warm up by sight-reading the
thing. Neither of us had ever seen the piece before, so
this was true sight-reading. The first movement was pretty
much the train wreck you'd expect, mostly because I'm not
a good sight-reader outside of first position, but it got
better as we went on. The later movements are mostly in
first position, and I got the hang of playing the notes
that matter most and leaving out the ones that don't. It
began to sound like music and went on to become musically
attractive, even though my playing would not have met the
moderate standard implied by "moderatetly well".
Then we played some twentieth century music moderately
well (we'd seen it before) and it too came out musically
attractive.
Although I agree that our instrument is difficult, you
don't have to be one of the world's greatest guitarists
to make music on it. You have to select music that's
within your ability, of course, which (reading between
its lines) may have been the point of the original post.
Will
Post by JacquesMoran
Post by William D Clinger
When we say that something is less than worthless, we
mean you would pay someone to take it from you. >>>>

Oh, you're talking from experience here. Just kidding.

Kent
John Rimmer
2007-09-17 15:28:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by tooly
Went to a CG department recital at my local college...and to be honest,
the preformances were terrible. I kept thinking to myself of all the work
these 'advanced' students had put into the instrument. Some seemed
technically accurate...but then there's that old darned thing I keep
reading about on this NG...'musicality'. I think some of the students
could just as well have been working a typewriter placing notes
adeptly...but somehow missing the point of the words and ideas that should
have been coming together like poetry.
Two things I came away with. First, traditional classical music on the
guitar is something that cannot be played 'moderatetly well' and come out
musically attractive. Second, I continue to be plagued with the notion
that some people are simply born with talent and some not...and all the
blood,sweat, and tears demanded of such a instrument could be investment
gone awry for those simply ungifted. ?
For all the technical difficulty of this music and perhaps some admiration
inspired for the sheer tackling of higher order, I would have been far
more entertained watching a Chet Atkins resounding little tunes like 'Glow
Worm' with a musicality that was simply mesmerizing. Musicality...gotta
be in one's bones I suppose.
Every one of them enter the university with different ability levels.
Likely, they are given recital pieces beyond their chops and too many for
them to get "down". Getting good on the instrument takes time and they were
likely not ready when they entered the program. Plus, how commited they are
to working long hours after the other course work is finished... all that
shows. I've seen good and surprisingly bad recitals. I also don't think
the students get enough real performance experience and they get nerved at
recital time.

John
tooly
2007-09-18 02:35:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Rimmer
Post by tooly
Went to a CG department recital at my local college...and to be honest,
the preformances were terrible. I kept thinking to myself of all the
work these 'advanced' students had put into the instrument. Some seemed
technically accurate...but then there's that old darned thing I keep
reading about on this NG...'musicality'. I think some of the students
could just as well have been working a typewriter placing notes
adeptly...but somehow missing the point of the words and ideas that
should have been coming together like poetry.
Two things I came away with. First, traditional classical music on the
guitar is something that cannot be played 'moderatetly well' and come out
musically attractive. Second, I continue to be plagued with the notion
that some people are simply born with talent and some not...and all the
blood,sweat, and tears demanded of such a instrument could be investment
gone awry for those simply ungifted. ?
For all the technical difficulty of this music and perhaps some
admiration inspired for the sheer tackling of higher order, I would have
been far more entertained watching a Chet Atkins resounding little tunes
like 'Glow Worm' with a musicality that was simply mesmerizing.
Musicality...gotta be in one's bones I suppose.
Every one of them enter the university with different ability levels.
Likely, they are given recital pieces beyond their chops and too many for
them to get "down". Getting good on the instrument takes time and they
were likely not ready when they entered the program. Plus, how commited
they are to working long hours after the other course work is finished...
all that shows. I've seen good and surprisingly bad recitals. I also
don't think the students get enough real performance experience and they
get nerved at recital time.
John
That's true. I could tell a good bit of nerviousness...stage fright. Music
would be fumbled, cumbersome handling of footstools etc. I observed
'intensity' in the eyes of some when they came to hard to finger
sections...I almost expected a few to bite their tongue, ha. This is not a
put down but I felt for these kids. I know the work involved in this
instrument.
Raptor
2007-09-17 15:33:12 UTC
Permalink
I know better, way better, than to venture here, but for what it's
worth, I believe "musicality" is like a foreign language. You can
study its particulars, grammar and rules, etc., as much as you wish,
but the end, its best learned by immersion. Like a soul tutored in
grace, musical performance arts are a magical mystery tour in the
emotional landscape of the divine. I cannot say some aren't born
better predisposed to learning the difference between technical skill
and and a musical aesthetic, because I simply don't know. But not for
nothing was the family Bach populated by many great composers and
musicians. From cradle to grave, their entire world was shaped by
music. This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.

mark
Raptor
2007-09-17 15:44:08 UTC
Permalink
I know better, way better, than to venture here, but for what it's
worth, I believe believe "musicality" is like a foreign language. You
can study its particulars, grammar and rules, etc., as much as you
wish, but the end, it's best learned by immersion. Like a soul
tutored in grace, musical performance arts are a magical mystery tour
in the emotional landscape of the divine. You have to see it (hear
it) to believe it and make it part of you. And it's really hard work
sometimes to achieve that last part.

I cannot say some aren't born better predisposed to learning the
difference between technical skill and a musical aesthetic, because I
simply don't know. But not for
nothing was the family Bach populated by many great composers and
musicians. From cradle to grave, their entire world was shaped by
music. This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.

mark
David Schramm
2007-09-17 18:59:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.
I agree! We removed parts of the Quadrivium(Mathmatical Studies), and less
of the Trivium(Gramatical Studies) concept from university (and all levels
of education in the USA) studies which is it's histroical foundation. Music
being one of the four areas of mathmatical study of the quadrivium. You
can't leave out that 1/4 and have a complete study of the quadrivium. All
four areas of the quadrivium strengthen the mind.
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com
Dicerous
2007-09-17 20:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Schramm
Post by Raptor
This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.
I agree! We removed parts of the Quadrivium(Mathmatical Studies), and less
of the Trivium(Gramatical Studies) concept from university (and all levels
of education in the USA) studies which is it's histroical foundation. Music
being one of the four areas of mathmatical study of the quadrivium. You
can't leave out that 1/4 and have a complete study of the quadrivium. All
four areas of the quadrivium strengthen the mind.
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CAhttp://schrammguitars.comhttp://onlineapprentice.com
David Schramm is an insufferable bore.

David
e***@cox.net
2007-09-17 21:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Schramm
Post by Raptor
This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.
I agree! We removed parts of the Quadrivium(Mathmatical Studies), and less
of the Trivium(Gramatical Studies) concept from university (and all levels
of education in the USA) studies which is it's histroical foundation. Music
being one of the four areas of mathmatical study of the quadrivium. You
can't leave out that 1/4 and have a complete study of the quadrivium. All
four areas of the quadrivium strengthen the mind.
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CAhttp://schrammguitars.comhttp://onlineapprentice.com
Public education abandoned classical education eons ago. Pity. Once we
lost that integrated concept of educating the whole person, the arts
were destined to fall by the wayside.

Pity.
Raptor
2007-09-17 22:24:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 3:56 pm, ***@cox.net wrote:

"Public education abandoned classical education eons ago. Pity. Once
we lost that integrated concept of educating the whole person, the
arts were destined to fall by the wayside."

It wasn't that long ago. I attended a public high school in Northern
Virginia in the early 70's and rec'd four years each of: foreign
language, math (AP classes for two years), science (ditto), English/
literature, history/government, and music. Graphic arts was available
in lieu of music and computer programing (FORTRAN, then) was a math
elective for those not wishing to take calculus. That curriculum
survives and the school still places in the top ranks nationally. A
community gets what it demands and is willing to tax itself to
support.

Today in California, there are more luxury vehicles (BMW, Lexus,
Mercedes, Porsche, etc.) per capita being driven than ever in
history. Yet in roughly the same amount of time it has taken for
these driving demographics to develop, its school have gone from the
very best to among the worst in the nation. New BMW for Dad (leased,
of course) -good. Music in the Renaissance - bad. That about sums
things up, I think.

mark
Raptor
2007-09-17 22:29:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 3:56 pm, ***@cox.net wrote:

"Public education abandoned classical education eons ago. Pity. Once
we lost that integrated concept of educating the whole person, the
arts were destined to fall by the wayside."


It wasn't that long ago. I attended a public high school in Northern
Virginia in the early 70's and rec'd four years each of: foreign
language, math (AP classes for two years), science (ditto), English/
literature, history/government, and music. Graphic arts was
available
in lieu of music and computer programing (FORTRAN, then) was a math
elective for those not wishing to take calculus. That curriculum
survives and the school still places in the top ranks nationally. A
community gets what it demands and is willing to tax itself to
support.


Today in California, there are more luxury vehicles (BMW, Lexus,
Mercedes, Porsche, etc.) per capita being driven than ever in
history. Yet in roughly the same amount of time it has taken for
these driving demographics to develop, its school have gone from the
very best to among the worst in the nation. Mmmm.....


mark
Carlos Barrientos
2007-09-17 23:41:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
"Public education abandoned classical education eons ago. Pity. Once
we lost that integrated concept of educating the whole person, the
arts were destined to fall by the wayside."
It wasn't that long ago. I attended a public high school in Northern
Virginia in the early 70's and rec'd four years each of: foreign
language, math (AP classes for two years), science (ditto), English/
literature, history/government, and music. Graphic arts was
available
in lieu of music and computer programing (FORTRAN, then) was a math
elective for those not wishing to take calculus. That curriculum
survives and the school still places in the top ranks nationally. A
community gets what it demands and is willing to tax itself to
support.
Today in California, there are more luxury vehicles (BMW, Lexus,
Mercedes, Porsche, etc.) per capita being driven than ever in
history. Yet in roughly the same amount of time it has taken for
these driving demographics to develop, its school have gone from the
very best to among the worst in the nation. Mmmm.....
mark
One could deduce that the expensive cars have gotten smarter than the
populace and could SOON drive the citizenry to the ocean like lemmings...

;)
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
thomas
2007-09-18 02:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
"Public education abandoned classical education eons ago. Pity. Once
we lost that integrated concept of educating the whole person, the
arts were destined to fall by the wayside."
It wasn't that long ago. I attended a public high school in Northern
Virginia in the early 70's and rec'd four years each of: foreign
language, math (AP classes for two years), science (ditto), English/
literature, history/government, and music. Graphic arts was
available
in lieu of music and computer programing (FORTRAN, then) was a math
elective for those not wishing to take calculus. That curriculum
survives and the school still places in the top ranks nationally. A
community gets what it demands and is willing to tax itself to
support.
Today in California, there are more luxury vehicles (BMW, Lexus,
Mercedes, Porsche, etc.) per capita being driven than ever in
history. Yet in roughly the same amount of time it has taken for
these driving demographics to develop, its school have gone from the
very best to among the worst in the nation. Mmmm.....
mark
What high school was that? I also went to hs in Nova in the early 70s.
You may have gotten the better edumacation, but I bet we kicked your
ass in football.
Raptor
2007-09-18 02:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Thomas: It was W.T. Woodson, in Fairfax. I have no idea how we did in
football; I never went to a game. I was into crew and swimming then.

mark
Alcibiades
2007-09-17 22:03:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Schramm
Post by Raptor
This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.
I agree! We removed parts of the Quadrivium(Mathmatical Studies), and less
of the Trivium(Gramatical Studies)
I'm glad you've mentioned this. See this famous essay by Dorothy
Sayers:

http://www.gbt.org/text/sayers.html
Tashi
2007-09-17 23:45:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Schramm
Post by Raptor
This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.
I agree! We removed parts of the Quadrivium(Mathmatical Studies), and less
of the Trivium(Gramatical Studies) concept from university (and all levels
of education in the USA) studies which is it's histroical foundation. Music
being one of the four areas of mathmatical study of the quadrivium. You
can't leave out that 1/4 and have a complete study of the quadrivium. All
four areas of the quadrivium strengthen the mind.
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CAhttp://schrammguitars.comhttp://onlineapprentice.com
Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?
MT
Raptor
2007-09-18 01:57:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 5:45 pm, Tashi <***@starband.net> wrote:

"Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?"

Actually, Tashi, it's been pretty equal opportunity wreckless self-
indulgence. The Assembly has largely been in Democratic control,
while Prop 13, the worst thing that has ever happened in California
politics, was pushed by a rabid Republican who later ran for governor
against Governor Arnold - as mild a Replublican as California has seen
in office. All in all, a pox on both their houses.

mark
GuitarsWeB
2007-09-18 02:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
"Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?"
Actually, Tashi, it's been pretty equal opportunity wreckless self-
indulgence. The Assembly has largely been in Democratic control,
while Prop 13, the worst thing that has ever happened in California
politics, was pushed by a rabid Republican who later ran for governor
against Governor Arnold - as mild a Replublican as California has seen
in office. All in all, a pox on both their houses.
mark
Did you live in California before Prop.13? I understand Oregon also
voted a Pop 13 in.
Paul McGuffin,
Raptor
2007-09-18 02:37:51 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 8:06 pm, GuitarsWeB <***@cox.net> wrote:

"Did you live in California before Prop.13? I understand Oregon also
voted a Pop 13 in."

Paul McGuffin

Yes, I did. I've bounced in and out of California since 1958, most
recently living in San Francisco from 1990-1998, but I'll never return
to live there. I recognize the rhetoric used to launch Prop 13 was
the out of control rise in property taxes being spent mindlessly by
the Assembly. But many states have found alternative means of keeping
Grandma from being taxed out of her homestead without creating the
nightmare Prop 13 has. Most have arrested, or significantly capped,
property tax increases at a certain age, often 65. The utterly
forseeable but ignored effect of Prop 13 was to create a state in
which the young have no reasonable expectation of ever owning a home.
(Paying a hybrid mortgage or 100% interest only mortgage is not
"owning;" it's fancy renting. 64% of mortgages taken out between San
Francisco and San Diego between 2003-2006 have no realistic
expectation of ever being paid off. Many of these will go into
foreclosure in the next 18-24 months.)

California is a wreck and the politics of districting is at the core
or it. Running a close second is the moronic plebiscite voting vs.
representative republican government. But of course this doesn't work
either because of problem number one. It's a vicious circle of
selfishness, greed, lack of accountability, big brotherism, willful
ignorance and sheer stupidity.

A great French impressionist once said of France, "where it not for
the beauty of the landscape, I should live elsewhere." That's how I
always felt about California until even the heroic landscape could no
longer hold me. I found a new home in New Mexico. But I'll admit I
do visit the coast every couple of months for a few days, to enjoy the
scenery, drink the wine, enjoy friends, and laugh at the politics
which used to drive me crazy when I had to suffer the effects.

mark
GuitarsWeB
2007-09-18 02:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
"Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?"
Actually, Tashi, it's been pretty equal opportunity wreckless self-
indulgence. The Assembly has largely been in Democratic control,
while Prop 13, the worst thing that has ever happened in California
politics, was pushed by a rabid Republican who later ran for governor
against Governor Arnold - as mild a Replublican as California has seen
in office. All in all, a pox on both their houses.
mark
while Prop 13, the worst thing that has ever happened in California
Post by Raptor
politics, was pushed by a rabid Republican>>>>>>>>>
I thought a Democratic governor was in office when Prop 13 was voted
in. Am I incorrect?
Paul McGuffin
Tashi
2007-09-18 02:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
Post by Raptor
"Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?"
Actually, Tashi, it's been pretty equal opportunity wreckless self-
indulgence. The Assembly has largely been in Democratic control,
while Prop 13, the worst thing that has ever happened in California
politics, was pushed by a rabid Republican who later ran for governor
against Governor Arnold - as mild a Replublican as California has seen
in office. All in all, a pox on both their houses.
mark
while Prop 13, the worst thing that has ever happened in California
Post by Raptor
politics, was pushed by a rabid Republican>>>>>>>>>
I thought a Democratic governor was in office when Prop 13 was voted
in. Am I incorrect?
Paul McGuffin
Forgive my ignorance, I was largely A-political up until the last
election, but what and when is proposition 13?
MT
Raptor
2007-09-18 02:42:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 17, 8:13 pm, GuitarsWeB <***@cox.net> wrote:

"I thought a Democratic governor was in office when Prop 13 was voted
in. Am I incorrect?"

I believe you are correct but I honestly can't remember the governors
back that far. But the bankroll behind the proposition, its lobbying
and its publicity machine, was all Republican. Daryl Issa? or
something like that.

mark
Alexander Mcleod
2007-09-18 14:23:49 UTC
Permalink
You are both correct, in part. Jerry Brown was governor but Darryl Issa is
more contemporary. It was his numerous antecedents who pushed through Prop
13.
Post by Raptor
"I thought a Democratic governor was in office when Prop 13 was voted
in. Am I incorrect?"
I believe you are correct but I honestly can't remember the governors
back that far. But the bankroll behind the proposition, its lobbying
and its publicity machine, was all Republican. Daryl Issa? or
something like that.
mark
GuitarsWeB
2007-09-18 02:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by David Schramm
Post by Raptor
This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.
I agree! We removed parts of the Quadrivium(Mathmatical Studies), and less
of the Trivium(Gramatical Studies) concept from university (and all levels
of education in the USA) studies which is it's histroical foundation. Music
being one of the four areas of mathmatical study of the quadrivium. You
can't leave out that 1/4 and have a complete study of the quadrivium. All
four areas of the quadrivium strengthen the mind.
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CAhttp://schrammguitars.comhttp://onlineapprentice.com
Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?
MT
Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?
MT >>>>>>>>>>
Mike, I normally avoid the politics on this NG. But, I do believe we
are going to see a ONE party country, very soon. Or, one party TOTALLY
in control. That might be good, it might be bad.
Paul McGuffin
Tashi
2007-09-18 02:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Tashi
Post by David Schramm
Post by Raptor
This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.
I agree! We removed parts of the Quadrivium(Mathmatical Studies), and less
of the Trivium(Gramatical Studies) concept from university (and all levels
of education in the USA) studies which is it's histroical foundation. Music
being one of the four areas of mathmatical study of the quadrivium. You
can't leave out that 1/4 and have a complete study of the quadrivium. All
four areas of the quadrivium strengthen the mind.
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CAhttp://schrammguitars.comhttp://onlineapprentice.com
Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?
MT
Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?
MT >>>>>>>>>>
Mike, I normally avoid the politics on this NG. But, I do believe we
are going to see a ONE party country, very soon. Or, one party TOTALLY
in control. That might be good, it might be bad.
Paul McGuffin
Paul one party has been in control and with disasterous results. The
party in control is neither Democrat nor Rebublican but Corpratist.
Corparations are like black holes, they are self serving entites and
are colorless, and formless, and countryless. Dick Cheney and
halliburtion figured this out long ago and moved corperate
headquartera to Dubui or whatever that country is.

MT
GuitarsWeB
2007-09-18 03:39:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Tashi
Post by Tashi
Post by David Schramm
Post by Raptor
This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.
I agree! We removed parts of the Quadrivium(Mathmatical Studies), and less
of the Trivium(Gramatical Studies) concept from university (and all levels
of education in the USA) studies which is it's histroical foundation. Music
being one of the four areas of mathmatical study of the quadrivium. You
can't leave out that 1/4 and have a complete study of the quadrivium. All
four areas of the quadrivium strengthen the mind.
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CAhttp://schrammguitars.comhttp://onlineapprentice.com
Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?
MT
Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?
MT >>>>>>>>>>
Mike, I normally avoid the politics on this NG. But, I do believe we
are going to see a ONE party country, very soon. Or, one party TOTALLY
in control. That might be good, it might be bad.
Paul McGuffin
Paul one party has been in control and with disasterous results. The
party in control is neither Democrat nor Rebublican but Corpratist.
Corparations are like black holes, they are self serving entites and
are colorless, and formless, and countryless. Dick Cheney and
halliburtion figured this out long ago and moved corperate
headquartera to Dubui or whatever that country is.
MT
Dick Cheney and
halliburtion figured this out long ago and moved corperate
headquartera to Dubui or whatever that country is.

MT >>>>>>

Yes, I know all about Dick Cheney. I worked for him and his company
before he was elected as VicePres. in 2000. One of the most arrogant
companies in the US.
Paul McGuffin
Alcibiades
2007-09-18 05:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Tashi
Post by David Schramm
Post by Raptor
This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.
I agree! We removed parts of the Quadrivium(Mathmatical Studies), and less
of the Trivium(Gramatical Studies) concept from university (and all levels
of education in the USA) studies which is it's histroical foundation. Music
being one of the four areas of mathmatical study of the quadrivium. You
can't leave out that 1/4 and have a complete study of the quadrivium. All
four areas of the quadrivium strengthen the mind.
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CAhttp://schrammguitars.comhttp://onlineapprentice.com
Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?
MT
Yes, and we have the republicans to thank for that. Have you guys
learned anything yet?
MT >>>>>>>>>>
Mike, I normally avoid the politics on this NG. But, I do believe we
are going to see a ONE party country, very soon. Or, one party TOTALLY
in control. That might be good, it might be bad.
Paul McGuffin- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
It's already in control. It's called the dictatorship of relativism.

Just thought I'd pop in.
Flarb
2007-09-18 05:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Schramm
I agree! We removed parts of the Quadrivium(Mathmatical Studies), and
less of the Trivium(Gramatical Studies) concept from university (and
all levels of education in the USA) studies which is it's histroical
foundation. Music being one of the four areas of mathmatical study of
the quadrivium. You can't leave out that 1/4 and have a complete study
of the quadrivium. All four areas of the quadrivium strengthen the
mind.
But I though that Plato said too much preoccupation with music turns you
into a fruit cake
Raptor
2007-09-17 15:46:33 UTC
Permalink
know better, way better, than to venture here, but for what it's
worth, I sometimes believe "musicality" is like a foreign language.
You
can study its particulars, grammar and rules, etc., as much as you
wish, but the end, it's best learned by immersion. Like a soul
tutored in grace, musical performance arts are a magical mystery tour
in the emotional landscape of the divine. You have to see it (hear
it) to believe it and make it part of you. And it's really hard work
sometimes to achieve that last part.

I cannot say some aren't born better predisposed to learning the
difference between technical skill and a musical aesthetic, because I
simply don't know. But not for
nothing was the family Bach populated by many great composers and
musicians. From cradle to grave, their entire world was shaped by
music. This is part of why I think it's a real shame the arts in
U.S.
public education systems are viewed as extracurricular.


mark
Raptor
2007-09-17 15:49:20 UTC
Permalink
I know better, way better, than to venture here, but for what it's
worth, I sometimes believe "musicality" is like a foreign language.
You can study its particulars, grammar and rules, etc., as much as you
wish, but the end, it's best learned by immersion. Like a soul
tutored in grace, musical performance arts are a magical mystery tour
in the emotional landscape of the divine. You have to see it (hear
it) to believe it and make it part of you. And it can be really hard
work to achieve that last part.

I cannot say some aren't born better predisposed to learning the
difference between technical skill and a musical aesthetic, because I
simply don't know. But not for nothing was the family Bach populated
by many great composers and musicians. From cradle to grave, their
entire world was shaped by music. This is part of why I think it's a
real shame the arts in U.S. public education systems are viewed as
extracurricular.

mark
GuitarsWeB
2007-09-17 21:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
I know better, way better, than to venture here, but for what it's
worth, I sometimes believe "musicality" is like a foreign language.
You can study its particulars, grammar and rules, etc., as much as you
wish, but the end, it's best learned by immersion. Like a soul
tutored in grace, musical performance arts are a magical mystery tour
in the emotional landscape of the divine. You have to see it (hear
it) to believe it and make it part of you. And it can be really hard
work to achieve that last part.
I cannot say some aren't born better predisposed to learning the
difference between technical skill and a musical aesthetic, because I
simply don't know. But not for nothing was the family Bach populated
by many great composers and musicians. From cradle to grave, their
entire world was shaped by music. This is part of why I think it's a
real shame the arts in U.S. public education systems are viewed as
extracurricular.
mark
This is part of why I think it's a
real shame the arts in U.S. public education systems are viewed as
extracurricular. >>>>>>>
Well, I kind of think history has gone that route also.How about
college basketball or girls volleyball?
Paul McGuffin
n***@upaya.org
2007-09-17 21:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
Post by Raptor
I know better, way better, than to venture here, but for what it's
worth, I sometimes believe "musicality" is like a foreign language.
You can study its particulars, grammar and rules, etc., as much as you
wish, but the end, it's best learned by immersion. Like a soul
tutored in grace, musical performance arts are a magical mystery tour
in the emotional landscape of the divine. You have to see it (hear
it) to believe it and make it part of you. And it can be really hard
work to achieve that last part.
I cannot say some aren't born better predisposed to learning the
difference between technical skill and a musical aesthetic, because I
simply don't know. But not for nothing was the family Bach populated
by many great composers and musicians. From cradle to grave, their
entire world was shaped by music. This is part of why I think it's a
real shame the arts in U.S. public education systems are viewed as
extracurricular.
mark
This is part of why I think it's a
real shame the arts in U.S. public education systems are viewed as
extracurricular. >>>>>>>
Well, I kind of think history has gone that route also.How about
college basketball or girls volleyball?
Paul McGuffin- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Or female mud wrestling?
MT
John O
2007-09-17 23:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by tooly
Two things I came away with. First, traditional classical music on the
guitar is something that cannot be played 'moderatetly well' and come out
musically attractive.
So, you base your massive reductionist theory on one group of students?
That's absurd. Listen to Paul Galbraith play a Mozart Piano Sontata or
Hubert Kappel play Bach's 6th Keyboard Partita and tell me they aren't
"musically attractive."
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