Discussion:
Was Segovia Really Self Taught?
(too old to reply)
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-25 17:25:32 UTC
Permalink
I have strong feelings about this as a general issue not specific to
Segovia or any other person, so I am quoting my reply in Delcamp
including the message which precipitated it. I would only add that I do
not claim to be self taught nor do I say that I am presently self taught,
but I don't claim *not* to be self taught either. daveA:

[quote="[omitted]"][quote]
And Segovia "brought along" a Segovia too.[/quote]

That is actually in doubt now. There is some good info on Segovia's
claim to being self taught in the Wikipedia entry on Segovia. In a
nutshell, according to Angelo Gilardino, artistic director of the Andrés
Segovia Foundation in Linares, and a highly respected scholar, Segovia
receive instruction on flamenco guitar at a very young age. It is also
pretty well established that at 22 or 24 Segovia studied under Llobet. I
myself have received what I'd have to classify as "reliable anecdotal
evidence" that he studied with Llobet, in the form of a letter from
Hector Garcia, who was sharing information passed on to him by Pujol.

None of this dimishes his importance in the least. If a musician had to
be self taught to be important we would have to eliminate every major
composer from our music history books including Bach, Mozart, Beethoven,
etc. But it is important that we get an accurate history of our
instrument and its players, and the Segovia autobiography has not been
helpful in that regard. We have to sort out the hyperbole and find the
facts.

In answer to the original question, the complete Tarrega Technical
Studies are published by UE, and cost around $20 US. I'm sure you can
get them in all sorts of ways that are legal since they are in the public
domain, but for $20 it seems much more convenient to just order them from
any of the many legitimate commercial providers of classical guitar music.
[/quote]

I have downloaded the Pascual Roche version and unfortunately I did not
retain the link, but it is to be found for free. It's not worth a damn.

I have had a completely different way of looking at this "self taught"
thing for well over forty years. All guitarists are self taught, and
paradoxically it is very important for a teacher to understand that.
What you learn in a lesson is nothing compared to what you learn when you
are alone with the music. At some point you have to begin to learn
everything from the music, or through the music, whether old or new,
printed or improvised, original or composed by another. I used to
consider myself "Segovia School". My teachers were Bill Harris,
Sophocles Papas, and Segovia. I learned a lot from them. While I have
become an expert in writing grade zero music and writing technical
exercises, the omissions in my training, for which Segovia himself is to
blame in some part through his own fault, were so glaring that I now have
Carcassi and Legnani as my teachers. Obviously I accept responsibility
for not understanding that which my former teachers didn't understand
either. Since my present teachers are long dead, I now can truthfully
say that I am self taught, since I hope never to stop learning.

You should not think of Segovia as a liar on account of his claim to be
self taught. It is a matter of point of view and interpretation in its
essence. Any person is as self taught as he thinks he is. A person who
says he didn't learn anything from a teacher may be wrong, he may be
right, he may come to change his mind one way or the other, but he is not
telling a falsehood. :guitare:
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.

Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.

Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.

Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.

Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.

(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)

The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.

Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.

email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Carlos Barrientos
2008-02-25 17:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I have strong feelings about this as a general issue not specific to
Segovia or any other person, so I am quoting my reply in Delcamp
including the message which precipitated it. I would only add that I do
not claim to be self taught nor do I say that I am presently self taught,
[quote="[omitted]"][quote]
And Segovia "brought along" a Segovia too.[/quote]
That is actually in doubt now. There is some good info on Segovia's
claim to being self taught in the Wikipedia entry on Segovia. In a
nutshell, according to Angelo Gilardino, artistic director of the Andrés
Segovia Foundation in Linares, and a highly respected scholar, Segovia
receive instruction on flamenco guitar at a very young age. It is also
pretty well established that at 22 or 24 Segovia studied under Llobet. I
myself have received what I'd have to classify as "reliable anecdotal
evidence" that he studied with Llobet, in the form of a letter from
Hector Garcia, who was sharing information passed on to him by Pujol.
None of this dimishes his importance in the least. If a musician had to
be self taught to be important we would have to eliminate every major
composer from our music history books including Bach, Mozart, Beethoven,
etc. But it is important that we get an accurate history of our
instrument and its players, and the Segovia autobiography has not been
helpful in that regard. We have to sort out the hyperbole and find the
facts.
In answer to the original question, the complete Tarrega Technical
Studies are published by UE, and cost around $20 US. I'm sure you can
get them in all sorts of ways that are legal since they are in the public
domain, but for $20 it seems much more convenient to just order them from
any of the many legitimate commercial providers of classical guitar music.
[/quote]
I have downloaded the Pascual Roche version and unfortunately I did not
retain the link, but it is to be found for free. It's not worth a damn.
I have had a completely different way of looking at this "self taught"
thing for well over forty years. All guitarists are self taught, and
paradoxically it is very important for a teacher to understand that.
What you learn in a lesson is nothing compared to what you learn when you
are alone with the music. At some point you have to begin to learn
everything from the music, or through the music, whether old or new,
printed or improvised, original or composed by another. I used to
consider myself "Segovia School". My teachers were Bill Harris,
Sophocles Papas, and Segovia. I learned a lot from them. While I have
become an expert in writing grade zero music and writing technical
exercises, the omissions in my training, for which Segovia himself is to
blame in some part through his own fault, were so glaring that I now have
Carcassi and Legnani as my teachers. Obviously I accept responsibility
for not understanding that which my former teachers didn't understand
either. Since my present teachers are long dead, I now can truthfully
say that I am self taught, since I hope never to stop learning.
You should not think of Segovia as a liar on account of his claim to be
self taught. It is a matter of point of view and interpretation in its
essence. Any person is as self taught as he thinks he is. A person who
says he didn't learn anything from a teacher may be wrong, he may be
right, he may come to change his mind one way or the other, but he is not
Look at my post: Re: Nota para Che...
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-25 21:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I have strong feelings about this as a general issue not specific to
Segovia or any other person, so I am quoting my reply in Delcamp
including the message which precipitated it. I would only add that I
do not claim to be self taught nor do I say that I am presently self
[quote="[omitted]"][quote]
And Segovia "brought along" a Segovia too.[/quote]
That is actually in doubt now. There is some good info on Segovia's
claim to being self taught in the Wikipedia entry on Segovia. In a
nutshell, according to Angelo Gilardino, artistic director of the
Andrés Segovia Foundation in Linares, and a highly respected scholar,
Segovia receive instruction on flamenco guitar at a very young age. It
is also pretty well established that at 22 or 24 Segovia studied under
Llobet. I myself have received what I'd have to classify as "reliable
anecdotal evidence" that he studied with Llobet, in the form of a
letter from Hector Garcia, who was sharing information passed on to him
by Pujol.
None of this dimishes his importance in the least. If a musician had
to be self taught to be important we would have to eliminate every
major composer from our music history books including Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, etc. But it is important that we get an accurate history of
our instrument and its players, and the Segovia autobiography has not
been helpful in that regard. We have to sort out the hyperbole and
find the facts.
In answer to the original question, the complete Tarrega Technical
Studies are published by UE, and cost around $20 US. I'm sure you can
get them in all sorts of ways that are legal since they are in the
public domain, but for $20 it seems much more convenient to just order
them from any of the many legitimate commercial providers of classical
guitar music. [/quote]
I have downloaded the Pascual Roche version and unfortunately I did not
retain the link, but it is to be found for free. It's not worth a damn.
I have had a completely different way of looking at this "self taught"
thing for well over forty years. All guitarists are self taught, and
paradoxically it is very important for a teacher to understand that.
What you learn in a lesson is nothing compared to what you learn when
you are alone with the music. At some point you have to begin to learn
everything from the music, or through the music, whether old or new,
printed or improvised, original or composed by another. I used to
consider myself "Segovia School". My teachers were Bill Harris,
Sophocles Papas, and Segovia. I learned a lot from them. While I have
become an expert in writing grade zero music and writing technical
exercises, the omissions in my training, for which Segovia himself is
to blame in some part through his own fault, were so glaring that I now
have Carcassi and Legnani as my teachers. Obviously I accept
responsibility for not understanding that which my former teachers
didn't understand either. Since my present teachers are long dead, I
now can truthfully say that I am self taught, since I hope never to
stop learning.
You should not think of Segovia as a liar on account of his claim to be
self taught. It is a matter of point of view and interpretation in its
essence. Any person is as self taught as he thinks he is. A person who
says he didn't learn anything from a teacher may be wrong, he may be
right, he may come to change his mind one way or the other, but he is
Look at my post: Re: Nota para Che...
No hablo Espan~ol. Where there's smoke, there's mirrors? Do you really
think that such research can create some sort of meaningful historical
record of who learned what where when? If he said he was self taught, he
was self taught. He suffered for it, IMO. daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.

Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.

Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.

Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.

Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.

(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)

The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.

Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.

email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Carlos Barrientos
2008-02-26 04:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I have strong feelings about this as a general issue not specific to
Segovia or any other person, so I am quoting my reply in Delcamp
including the message which precipitated it. I would only add that I
do not claim to be self taught nor do I say that I am presently self
[quote="[omitted]"][quote]
And Segovia "brought along" a Segovia too.[/quote]
That is actually in doubt now. There is some good info on Segovia's
claim to being self taught in the Wikipedia entry on Segovia. In a
nutshell, according to Angelo Gilardino, artistic director of the
Andrés Segovia Foundation in Linares, and a highly respected scholar,
Segovia receive instruction on flamenco guitar at a very young age. It
is also pretty well established that at 22 or 24 Segovia studied under
Llobet. I myself have received what I'd have to classify as "reliable
anecdotal evidence" that he studied with Llobet, in the form of a
letter from Hector Garcia, who was sharing information passed on to him
by Pujol.
None of this dimishes his importance in the least. If a musician had
to be self taught to be important we would have to eliminate every
major composer from our music history books including Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, etc. But it is important that we get an accurate history of
our instrument and its players, and the Segovia autobiography has not
been helpful in that regard. We have to sort out the hyperbole and
find the facts.
In answer to the original question, the complete Tarrega Technical
Studies are published by UE, and cost around $20 US. I'm sure you can
get them in all sorts of ways that are legal since they are in the
public domain, but for $20 it seems much more convenient to just order
them from any of the many legitimate commercial providers of classical
guitar music. [/quote]
I have downloaded the Pascual Roche version and unfortunately I did not
retain the link, but it is to be found for free. It's not worth a damn.
I have had a completely different way of looking at this "self taught"
thing for well over forty years. All guitarists are self taught, and
paradoxically it is very important for a teacher to understand that.
What you learn in a lesson is nothing compared to what you learn when
you are alone with the music. At some point you have to begin to learn
everything from the music, or through the music, whether old or new,
printed or improvised, original or composed by another. I used to
consider myself "Segovia School". My teachers were Bill Harris,
Sophocles Papas, and Segovia. I learned a lot from them. While I have
become an expert in writing grade zero music and writing technical
exercises, the omissions in my training, for which Segovia himself is
to blame in some part through his own fault, were so glaring that I now
have Carcassi and Legnani as my teachers. Obviously I accept
responsibility for not understanding that which my former teachers
didn't understand either. Since my present teachers are long dead, I
now can truthfully say that I am self taught, since I hope never to
stop learning.
You should not think of Segovia as a liar on account of his claim to be
self taught. It is a matter of point of view and interpretation in its
essence. Any person is as self taught as he thinks he is. A person who
says he didn't learn anything from a teacher may be wrong, he may be
right, he may come to change his mind one way or the other, but he is
Look at my post: Re: Nota para Che...
No hablo Espan~ol. Where there's smoke, there's mirrors? Do you really
think that such research can create some sort of meaningful historical
record of who learned what where when? If he said he was self taught, he
was self taught. He suffered for it, IMO. daveA
Watching Agustin Barrios Mangore play for him must have been a hell of a
MasterClass... (;-) but SEGOVIA was self taught.

IMHO, no artist in any discipline is self taught. We ALL learn,
essentially, by imitation, whether it is by instruction, transcribing
other artists, observing, rejection of models, etc...

Very few of us are born fully formed, like Athena from the brow of Zeus!

Being self taught, is to my mind as good a bit of promotional pap as
bragging about not being able to read music, ala stevie ray, hendrix,
louis armstrong, etc. Granted, it's true, but it makes for promo copy
for the great unwashed that can then say, "SEE he's one of US, the great
unwashed, he just has a gift, if I had it I could do it without all the
training , blah, blah, blah... Sorry, got carried away...

Nevermind.
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-26 10:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I have strong feelings about this as a general issue not specific to
Segovia or any other person, so I am quoting my reply in Delcamp
including the message which precipitated it. I would only add that I
do not claim to be self taught nor do I say that I am presently self
[quote="[omitted]"][quote]
And Segovia "brought along" a Segovia too.[/quote]
That is actually in doubt now. There is some good info on Segovia's
claim to being self taught in the Wikipedia entry on Segovia. In a
nutshell, according to Angelo Gilardino, artistic director of the
Andrés Segovia Foundation in Linares, and a highly respected scholar,
Segovia receive instruction on flamenco guitar at a very young age.
It is also pretty well established that at 22 or 24 Segovia studied
under Llobet. I myself have received what I'd have to classify as
"reliable anecdotal evidence" that he studied with Llobet, in the
form of a letter from Hector Garcia, who was sharing information
passed on to him by Pujol.
None of this dimishes his importance in the least. If a musician had
to be self taught to be important we would have to eliminate every
major composer from our music history books including Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, etc. But it is important that we get an accurate history
of our instrument and its players, and the Segovia autobiography has
not been helpful in that regard. We have to sort out the hyperbole
and find the facts.
In answer to the original question, the complete Tarrega Technical
Studies are published by UE, and cost around $20 US. I'm sure you
can get them in all sorts of ways that are legal since they are in
the public domain, but for $20 it seems much more convenient to just
order them from any of the many legitimate commercial providers of
classical guitar music. [/quote]
I have downloaded the Pascual Roche version and unfortunately I did
not retain the link, but it is to be found for free. It's not worth
a damn.
I have had a completely different way of looking at this "self
taught" thing for well over forty years. All guitarists are self
taught, and paradoxically it is very important for a teacher to
understand that. What you learn in a lesson is nothing compared to
what you learn when you are alone with the music. At some point you
have to begin to learn everything from the music, or through the
music, whether old or new, printed or improvised, original or
composed by another. I used to consider myself "Segovia School". My
teachers were Bill Harris, Sophocles Papas, and Segovia. I learned a
lot from them. While I have become an expert in writing grade zero
music and writing technical exercises, the omissions in my training,
for which Segovia himself is to blame in some part through his own
fault, were so glaring that I now have Carcassi and Legnani as my
teachers. Obviously I accept responsibility for not understanding
that which my former teachers didn't understand either. Since my
present teachers are long dead, I now can truthfully say that I am
self taught, since I hope never to stop learning.
You should not think of Segovia as a liar on account of his claim to
be self taught. It is a matter of point of view and interpretation
in its essence. Any person is as self taught as he thinks he is. A
person who says he didn't learn anything from a teacher may be wrong,
he may be right, he may come to change his mind one way or the other,
Look at my post: Re: Nota para Che...
No hablo Espan~ol. Where there's smoke, there's mirrors? Do you
really think that such research can create some sort of meaningful
historical record of who learned what where when? If he said he was
self taught, he was self taught. He suffered for it, IMO. daveA
Watching Agustin Barrios Mangore play for him must have been a hell of a
MasterClass... (;-) but SEGOVIA was self taught.
IMHO, no artist in any discipline is self taught. We ALL learn,
essentially, by imitation, whether it is by instruction, transcribing
other artists, observing, rejection of models, etc...
Very few of us are born fully formed, like Athena from the brow of Zeus!
Being self taught, is to my mind as good a bit of promotional pap as
bragging about not being able to read music, ala stevie ray, hendrix,
louis armstrong, etc. Granted, it's true, but it makes for promo copy
for the great unwashed that can then say, "SEE he's one of US, the great
unwashed, he just has a gift, if I had it I could do it without all the
training , blah, blah, blah... Sorry, got carried away...
I see your point, but I don't think it was promotional pap in his case.

Self-taught is a lot weaker than "never had a lesson", and it doesn't
necessarily imply "can't read music", as millions of users of the
Carcassi book over the last two centuries could testify. No doubt more
couldn't, but that doesn't matter. Segovia predates the lack of respect
that the great unwashed have for the washed, at least in Spain, and could
not be expected to consider that. IMO the cause of it is too much bad
education for the masses. As Lord Buddha said, a large quantity of
counterfeit currency quickly drives the genuine out of circulation.

IMO he was fine when he said he was self taught. Then he stepped on his
xxxx when he said he was never dissatisfied with his teacher. He should
have been. Very. He succeeded in spite of his teaching, not because of
it, and not because it was self teaching, but because he was not very
good at teaching himself. The two reasons IMO were an appalling ignorance
of physiology and, like a majority of twentieth century musicians, not
understanding the nature of rhythm. He passed on the crap that he
believed about relaxation of the wrist to many others entirely by example
AFAIK, and at least hundreds of thousands suffer by it greatly. He
suffered by it greatly too, and I saw it destroy his RH performance in
concert, clear as day.

I don't accept your equating self teaching with musical illiteracy. The
fallacy is that, according to your expressed view of the nature of
instruction by example, illiterates are without the means of self
instruction. Even if all instruction were by example, all example would
not be instruction. daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.

Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.

Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.

Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.

Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.

(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)

The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.

Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.

email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
cmcanulty
2008-02-26 14:21:02 UTC
Permalink
How do you turn off the quoting? I see nothing under options. I just
scroll and delete it but that is a pain if there is a way to set that
up I would like to know it. I read the group through google.
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-26 18:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by cmcanulty
How do you turn off the quoting? I see nothing under options. I just
scroll and delete it but that is a pain if there is a way to set that up
I would like to know it. I read the group through google.
I can only describe the application I have, which is Pan.

View --> Body Pane --> Mute Quoted Text

or just type 'q'. daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.

Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.

Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.

Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.

Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.

(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)

The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.

Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.

email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Lare
2008-02-28 15:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by cmcanulty
How do you turn off the quoting? I see nothing under options. I just
scroll and delete it but that is a pain if there is a way to set that up
I would like to know it. I read the group through google.
I can only describe the application I have, which is Pan.
View --> Body Pane --> Mute Quoted Text
or just type 'q'. daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.
Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.
Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.
Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.
Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.
Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.
(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)
The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.
Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Just do what I did with daveA's mal-formed, Da-daist quotes. With Outlook
Express, select the Message drop down menu, choose "permanently block
sender".....

Larry McDonald
just kidding
Carlos Barrientos
2008-02-26 15:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I have strong feelings about this as a general issue not specific to
Segovia or any other person, so I am quoting my reply in Delcamp
including the message which precipitated it. I would only add that I
do not claim to be self taught nor do I say that I am presently self
[quote="[omitted]"][quote]
And Segovia "brought along" a Segovia too.[/quote]
That is actually in doubt now. There is some good info on Segovia's
claim to being self taught in the Wikipedia entry on Segovia. In a
nutshell, according to Angelo Gilardino, artistic director of the
Andrés Segovia Foundation in Linares, and a highly respected scholar,
Segovia receive instruction on flamenco guitar at a very young age.
It is also pretty well established that at 22 or 24 Segovia studied
under Llobet. I myself have received what I'd have to classify as
"reliable anecdotal evidence" that he studied with Llobet, in the
form of a letter from Hector Garcia, who was sharing information
passed on to him by Pujol.
None of this dimishes his importance in the least. If a musician had
to be self taught to be important we would have to eliminate every
major composer from our music history books including Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, etc. But it is important that we get an accurate history
of our instrument and its players, and the Segovia autobiography has
not been helpful in that regard. We have to sort out the hyperbole
and find the facts.
In answer to the original question, the complete Tarrega Technical
Studies are published by UE, and cost around $20 US. I'm sure you
can get them in all sorts of ways that are legal since they are in
the public domain, but for $20 it seems much more convenient to just
order them from any of the many legitimate commercial providers of
classical guitar music. [/quote]
I have downloaded the Pascual Roche version and unfortunately I did
not retain the link, but it is to be found for free. It's not worth
a damn.
I have had a completely different way of looking at this "self
taught" thing for well over forty years. All guitarists are self
taught, and paradoxically it is very important for a teacher to
understand that. What you learn in a lesson is nothing compared to
what you learn when you are alone with the music. At some point you
have to begin to learn everything from the music, or through the
music, whether old or new, printed or improvised, original or
composed by another. I used to consider myself "Segovia School". My
teachers were Bill Harris, Sophocles Papas, and Segovia. I learned a
lot from them. While I have become an expert in writing grade zero
music and writing technical exercises, the omissions in my training,
for which Segovia himself is to blame in some part through his own
fault, were so glaring that I now have Carcassi and Legnani as my
teachers. Obviously I accept responsibility for not understanding
that which my former teachers didn't understand either. Since my
present teachers are long dead, I now can truthfully say that I am
self taught, since I hope never to stop learning.
You should not think of Segovia as a liar on account of his claim to
be self taught. It is a matter of point of view and interpretation
in its essence. Any person is as self taught as he thinks he is. A
person who says he didn't learn anything from a teacher may be wrong,
he may be right, he may come to change his mind one way or the other,
Look at my post: Re: Nota para Che...
No hablo Espan~ol. Where there's smoke, there's mirrors? Do you
really think that such research can create some sort of meaningful
historical record of who learned what where when? If he said he was
self taught, he was self taught. He suffered for it, IMO. daveA
Watching Agustin Barrios Mangore play for him must have been a hell of a
MasterClass... (;-) but SEGOVIA was self taught.
IMHO, no artist in any discipline is self taught. We ALL learn,
essentially, by imitation, whether it is by instruction, transcribing
other artists, observing, rejection of models, etc...
Very few of us are born fully formed, like Athena from the brow of Zeus!
Being self taught, is to my mind as good a bit of promotional pap as
bragging about not being able to read music, ala stevie ray, hendrix,
louis armstrong, etc. Granted, it's true, but it makes for promo copy
for the great unwashed that can then say, "SEE he's one of US, the great
unwashed, he just has a gift, if I had it I could do it without all the
training , blah, blah, blah... Sorry, got carried away...
I see your point, but I don't think it was promotional pap in his case.
OK. We differ in opinion.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Self-taught is a lot weaker than "never had a lesson", and it doesn't
necessarily imply "can't read music", as millions of users of the
Carcassi book over the last two centuries could testify. No doubt more
couldn't, but that doesn't matter.
Segovia predates the lack of respect
that the great unwashed have for the washed, at least in Spain, and could
not be expected to consider that.
I, for one, will have to consider the magnitude of this sweeping
assertion in all of it's ramifications carefully.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
IMO the cause of it is too much bad
education for the masses.
I could, humorously make a paraphrase that the root of all evil is not
in fact, money, but rather the lack of it, by stating that the bane of
any society is not education but rather the lack of it. So we concur.

As Lord Buddha said, a large quantity of
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
counterfeit currency quickly drives the genuine out of circulation.
I do not know this passage.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
IMO he was fine when he said he was self taught. Then he stepped on his
xxxx when he said he was never dissatisfied with his teacher. He should
have been. Very. He succeeded in spite of his teaching, not because of
it, and not because it was self teaching, but because he was not very
good at teaching himself.
He was rather prominent in his day and in the land of the blind, the one
eyed man IS king. I doubt, by today's standards, which curiously Segovia
helped devise, he would fare well in our present CG standards and
climate. He certainly doesn't present the eye candy factor in our
present views of performers, op.cit. the never ending fascination with
Ana Vidovic, et. al.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The two reasons IMO were an appalling ignorance
of physiology
That I have found to be true and certainly have tried to bring an
awareness to in my tuition.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
and, like a majority of twentieth century musicians, not
understanding the nature of rhythm.
I'm Latino... and I could easily cast asperities of a Xenophobic,
racist, nature which might be misinterpreted outside of the nature of
it's humorous essence. Something akin to "White men can't jump" in
basketball. But I shan't do that.

Every summer in my last University adjunct faculty job, I taught a FREE
rhythm lab where for an hour a week, I instructed my students,
SPECICALLY, the resolution of rhythmic problems so that they would be
better musicians in the fall. The students that participated vigorously
and enthusiastically seem to have greatly from the experiment.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
He passed on the crap that he
believed about relaxation of the wrist to many others entirely by example
AFAIK, and at least hundreds of thousands suffer by it greatly. He
suffered by it greatly too, and I saw it destroy his RH performance in
concert, clear as day.
Obviously, by observation, there seems to be in your appreciable
opinion, presumably by empirical experience, you perceive a flaw in his
methodology, re. right hand. OK. And in your instruction you wish to
correct it. I hope future generations of guitarists profit from it. Make
sure you document it as best you can and disseminate your views.
Nevertheless, inevitably, as you have done here, you will have to do so
with references to Segovia. Therein lies an aspect of his greatness in
the development of our instrumental technique. You cannot do so while he
is the elephant in the room, i.e. Segovia is to guitar in the 20th
century what Paganini was to the violin and Liszt/Chopin were to their
instrument in their day. Perforce, we must make reference to Segovia,
either embracing (imitation) or rejecting (determining he is NOT a model
to imitate) as we move ahead in the development of an all-problems
solving technique into the 21st century and beyond.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I don't accept your equating self teaching with musical illiteracy.
I merely reference my own own experience. I was doing quite well as a
performer of music without external instruction beyond my own
observation, but I achieved an unimagined leap when I sat at the feet of
my masters, both on my instrument and in my compositional instruction.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The
fallacy is that, according to your expressed view of the nature of
instruction by example, illiterates are without the means of self
instruction.
No, see my examples above. I merely commented how often self taught
and/or musically illiterate OFTEN come together as promotional pap. Some
musical beings, IMHO, DO come to us quasi fully formed, like Athena from
the brow of Zeus! Far too many examples to cite.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Even if all instruction were by example, all example would
not be instruction. dave
Most respectfully, IMHO, There, I believe you stepped on your xxxx.

Rejection of models is what you describe in your critique of Segovia's
RH wrist relaxation. Is that not, by your own assertions, a learning
experience that you have ascertained by imitation, examination and
rejection?

Have you not in fact done what I described earlier?

BTW, UNBELIEVABLE!

IMHO, a polite yet interesting exchange of views about the guitar, its
history and technique in RMCG. How satisfying and how rare. Thank you,
kind sir.
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322>
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-26 18:03:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Look at my post: Re: Nota para Che...
No hablo Espan~ol. Where there's smoke, there's mirrors? Do you
really think that such research can create some sort of meaningful
historical record of who learned what where when? If he said he was
self taught, he was self taught. He suffered for it, IMO. daveA
Watching Agustin Barrios Mangore play for him must have been a hell of a
MasterClass... (;-) but SEGOVIA was self taught.
IMHO, no artist in any discipline is self taught. We ALL learn,
essentially, by imitation, whether it is by instruction, transcribing
other artists, observing, rejection of models, etc...
I should have replied to this. All artists are self taught, because it
is when we are alone with the work that almost all of the learning takes
place. Fundamental to ethical teaching is making the student independent
of the teacher. Therefore "self teaching" is what a teacher teaches.
That makes "self teaching" difficult to define, to say the least. We
have seemingly opposite views, but they are both just views.

BTW, how are the schools doing with the independent thing?
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Very few of us are born fully formed, like Athena from the brow of Zeus!
Being self taught, is to my mind as good a bit of promotional pap as
bragging about not being able to read music, ala stevie ray, hendrix,
louis armstrong, etc. Granted, it's true, but it makes for promo copy
for the great unwashed that can then say, "SEE he's one of US, the
great unwashed, he just has a gift, if I had it I could do it without
all the training , blah, blah, blah... Sorry, got carried away...
I see your point, but I don't think it was promotional pap in his case.
OK. We differ in opinion.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Self-taught is a lot weaker than "never had a lesson", and it doesn't
necessarily imply "can't read music", as millions of users of the
Carcassi book over the last two centuries could testify. No doubt more
couldn't, but that doesn't matter.
Segovia predates the lack of respect
that the great unwashed have for the washed, at least in Spain, and
could not be expected to consider that.
I, for one, will have to consider the magnitude of this sweeping
assertion in all of it's ramifications carefully.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
IMO the cause of it is too much bad
education for the masses.
I could, humorously make a paraphrase that the root of all evil is not
in fact, money, but rather the lack of it, by stating that the bane of
any society is not education but rather the lack of it. So we concur.
As Lord Buddha said, a large quantity of
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
counterfeit currency quickly drives the genuine out of circulation.
I do not know this passage.
It's in the suttas. For my life I couldn't cite it.
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
IMO he was fine when he said he was self taught. Then he stepped on
his xxxx when he said he was never dissatisfied with his teacher. He
should have been. Very. He succeeded in spite of his teaching, not
because of it, and not because it was self teaching, but because he was
not very good at teaching himself.
He was rather prominent in his day and in the land of the blind, the one
eyed man IS king. I doubt, by today's standards, which curiously Segovia
helped devise, he would fare well in our present CG standards and
climate. He certainly doesn't present the eye candy factor in our
present views of performers, op.cit. the never ending fascination with
Ana Vidovic, et. al.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The two reasons IMO were an appalling ignorance
of physiology
That I have found to be true and certainly have tried to bring an
awareness to in my tuition.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
and, like a majority of twentieth century musicians, not
understanding the nature of rhythm.
I'm Latino... and I could easily cast asperities of a Xenophobic,
racist, nature which might be misinterpreted outside of the nature of
it's humorous essence. Something akin to "White men can't jump" in
basketball. But I shan't do that.
I meant to refer to the understanding that a musical accent is made by
anticipating a beat, and that is the only way an accent can be made, and
a known and shared beat must therefore exist in all minds capable of
hearing and making music. It is easy to demonstrate by playing timami
and seeing that 'a' can be played at any volume level, accented or not,
without any effect on accents on the 'm's, By accenting rests, simply
quieting notes ahead of a beat, a tied note can be accented. Just such
an accent is present in HVL etude #8. Both Segovia and Bream ignored the
tie. What a pity. Not knowing what an accent is might have an
unfortunate effect on one's interpretations, might it not?
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Every summer in my last University adjunct faculty job, I taught a FREE
rhythm lab where for an hour a week, I instructed my students,
SPECICALLY, the resolution of rhythmic problems so that they would be
better musicians in the fall. The students that participated vigorously
and enthusiastically seem to have greatly from the experiment.
I've no doubt.
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
He passed on the crap that he
believed about relaxation of the wrist to many others entirely by
example AFAIK, and at least hundreds of thousands suffer by it greatly.
He suffered by it greatly too, and I saw it destroy his RH performance
in concert, clear as day.
Obviously, by observation, there seems to be in your appreciable
opinion, presumably by empirical experience, you perceive a flaw in his
methodology, re. right hand. OK. And in your instruction you wish to
correct it. I hope future generations of guitarists profit from it. Make
sure you document it as best you can and disseminate your views.
Nevertheless, inevitably, as you have done here, you will have to do so
with references to Segovia.
Not really. I never fell for it. Carcassi's reference to "a steady
hand" will do fine. Some bad piano teachers probably still teach the
relaxed wrist. It's family tree:

"India Rubber Men" to Tobias Matthay to Wanda Landowska to Segovia to
Aaron Shearer (by watching Segovia).

Therein lies an aspect of his greatness in
Post by Carlos Barrientos
the development of our instrumental technique. You cannot do so while he
is the elephant in the room, i.e. Segovia is to guitar in the 20th
century what Paganini was to the violin and Liszt/Chopin were to their
instrument in their day. Perforce, we must make reference to Segovia,
either embracing (imitation) or rejecting (determining he is NOT a model
to imitate) as we move ahead in the development of an all-problems
solving technique into the 21st century and beyond.
The elephant is Legnani Op. 20. Unfinished business from 1813. That's
why at 70 years old I found myself practicing it.
Post by Carlos Barrientos
No, see my examples above. I merely commented how often self taught
and/or musically illiterate OFTEN come together as promotional pap.
Sure. I really don't think that promotion was Segovia's point. It was
all ego, not business.
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Even if all instruction were by example, all example would
not be instruction.
Most respectfully, IMHO, There, I believe you stepped on your xxxx.
Rejection of models is what you describe in your critique of Segovia's
RH wrist relaxation. Is that not, by your own assertions, a learning
experience that you have ascertained by imitation, examination and
rejection?
I never took it as a model. I was able to take the good and leave the
bad right off in that instance, but of course not in all, or many for
that matter.
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Have you not in fact done what I described earlier?
Of course we all learn much by imitation, but I need something a bit more
formal to say that someone other than myself did or did not receive
instruction from another person. Nobody taught me the Legnani Op. 20,
except Legnani, and I've only heard bad examples of all but one piece,
and that was the easiest one of the 36 IMO. I heard the one cut from a
recording by Eduardo Fernandez, on a car radio 20-30 years ago. That
only gave me the glimmering of a notion that Legnani was good. I still
had no idea that Op. 20 was essential and not merely important until I
was alone with the music. Not to study Op. 20 was Segovia's worst error
in his guitar playing life. Am I taught by Legnani? Sure. Does that
mean that I am or am not self taught? Not really. Wasn't Segovia in a
similar situation with Aguado, Sor, Tarrega, et. al.?

I'm not trying to whitewash Segovia, I am trying to be fair, nothing more.

Put it this way. This guy that was almost a Segovia clone just a few
topics back. He was recorded in an empty hall with a bit of echo.
Many of Segovia's old records had a bit of echo too. What were they
hiding? Shouldn't music sound better if it can be heard more clearly?
Post by Carlos Barrientos
BTW, UNBELIEVABLE!
IMHO, a polite yet interesting exchange of views about the guitar, its
history and technique in RMCG. How satisfying and how rare. Thank you,
kind sir.
I noticed, and I thank you too, amigo. daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.

Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.

Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.

Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.

Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.

(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)

The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.

Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.

email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Carlos Barrientos
2008-02-26 15:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I have strong feelings about this as a general issue not specific to
Segovia or any other person, so I am quoting my reply in Delcamp
including the message which precipitated it. I would only add that I
do not claim to be self taught nor do I say that I am presently self
[quote="[omitted]"][quote]
And Segovia "brought along" a Segovia too.[/quote]
That is actually in doubt now. There is some good info on Segovia's
claim to being self taught in the Wikipedia entry on Segovia. In a
nutshell, according to Angelo Gilardino, artistic director of the
Andrés Segovia Foundation in Linares, and a highly respected scholar,
Segovia receive instruction on flamenco guitar at a very young age.
It is also pretty well established that at 22 or 24 Segovia studied
under Llobet. I myself have received what I'd have to classify as
"reliable anecdotal evidence" that he studied with Llobet, in the
form of a letter from Hector Garcia, who was sharing information
passed on to him by Pujol.
None of this dimishes his importance in the least. If a musician had
to be self taught to be important we would have to eliminate every
major composer from our music history books including Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, etc. But it is important that we get an accurate history
of our instrument and its players, and the Segovia autobiography has
not been helpful in that regard. We have to sort out the hyperbole
and find the facts.
In answer to the original question, the complete Tarrega Technical
Studies are published by UE, and cost around $20 US. I'm sure you
can get them in all sorts of ways that are legal since they are in
the public domain, but for $20 it seems much more convenient to just
order them from any of the many legitimate commercial providers of
classical guitar music. [/quote]
I have downloaded the Pascual Roche version and unfortunately I did
not retain the link, but it is to be found for free. It's not worth
a damn.
I have had a completely different way of looking at this "self
taught" thing for well over forty years. All guitarists are self
taught, and paradoxically it is very important for a teacher to
understand that. What you learn in a lesson is nothing compared to
what you learn when you are alone with the music. At some point you
have to begin to learn everything from the music, or through the
music, whether old or new, printed or improvised, original or
composed by another. I used to consider myself "Segovia School". My
teachers were Bill Harris, Sophocles Papas, and Segovia. I learned a
lot from them. While I have become an expert in writing grade zero
music and writing technical exercises, the omissions in my training,
for which Segovia himself is to blame in some part through his own
fault, were so glaring that I now have Carcassi and Legnani as my
teachers. Obviously I accept responsibility for not understanding
that which my former teachers didn't understand either. Since my
present teachers are long dead, I now can truthfully say that I am
self taught, since I hope never to stop learning.
You should not think of Segovia as a liar on account of his claim to
be self taught. It is a matter of point of view and interpretation
in its essence. Any person is as self taught as he thinks he is. A
person who says he didn't learn anything from a teacher may be wrong,
he may be right, he may come to change his mind one way or the other,
Look at my post: Re: Nota para Che...
No hablo Espan~ol. Where there's smoke, there's mirrors? Do you
really think that such research can create some sort of meaningful
historical record of who learned what where when? If he said he was
self taught, he was self taught. He suffered for it, IMO. daveA
Watching Agustin Barrios Mangore play for him must have been a hell of a
MasterClass... (;-) but SEGOVIA was self taught.
IMHO, no artist in any discipline is self taught. We ALL learn,
essentially, by imitation, whether it is by instruction, transcribing
other artists, observing, rejection of models, etc...
Very few of us are born fully formed, like Athena from the brow of Zeus!
Being self taught, is to my mind as good a bit of promotional pap as
bragging about not being able to read music, ala stevie ray, hendrix,
louis armstrong, etc. Granted, it's true, but it makes for promo copy
for the great unwashed that can then say, "SEE he's one of US, the great
unwashed, he just has a gift, if I had it I could do it without all the
training , blah, blah, blah... Sorry, got carried away...
I see your point, but I don't think it was promotional pap in his case.
OK. We differ in opinion.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Self-taught is a lot weaker than "never had a lesson", and it doesn't
necessarily imply "can't read music", as millions of users of the
Carcassi book over the last two centuries could testify. No doubt more
couldn't, but that doesn't matter.
Segovia predates the lack of respect
that the great unwashed have for the washed, at least in Spain, and could
not be expected to consider that.
I, for one, will have to consider the magnitude of this sweeping
assertion in all of it's ramifications carefully.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
IMO the cause of it is too much bad
education for the masses.
I could, humorously make a paraphrase that the root of all evil is not
in fact, money, but rather the lack of it, by stating that the bane of
any society is not education but rather the lack of it. So we concur.

As Lord Buddha said, a large quantity of
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
counterfeit currency quickly drives the genuine out of circulation.
I do not know this passage.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
IMO he was fine when he said he was self taught. Then he stepped on his
xxxx when he said he was never dissatisfied with his teacher. He should
have been. Very. He succeeded in spite of his teaching, not because of
it, and not because it was self teaching, but because he was not very
good at teaching himself.
He was rather prominent in his day and in the land of the blind, the one
eyed man IS king. I doubt, by today's standards, which curiously Segovia
helped devise, he would fare well in our present CG standards and
climate. He certainly doesn't present the eye candy factor in our
present views of performers, op.cit. the never ending fascination with
Ana Vidovic, et. al.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The two reasons IMO were an appalling ignorance
of physiology
That I have found to be true and certainly have tried to bring an
awareness to in my tuition.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
and, like a majority of twentieth century musicians, not
understanding the nature of rhythm.
I'm Latino... and I could easily cast asperities of a Xenophobic,
racist, nature which might be misinterpreted outside of the nature of
it's humorous essence. Something akin to "White men can't jump" in
basketball. But I shan't do that.

Every summer in my last University adjunct faculty job, I taught a FREE
rhythm lab where for an hour a week, I instructed my students,
SPECICALLY, the resolution of rhythmic problems so that they would be
better musicians in the fall. The students that participated vigorously
and enthusiastically seem to have PROFITED greatly from the experiment.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
He passed on the crap that he
believed about relaxation of the wrist to many others entirely by example
AFAIK, and at least hundreds of thousands suffer by it greatly. He
suffered by it greatly too, and I saw it destroy his RH performance in
concert, clear as day.
Obviously, by observation, there seems to be in your appreciable
opinion, presumably by empirical experience, the perception of a flaw in
his methodology, re. right hand. OK. And in your instruction you wish to
correct it. I hope future generations of guitarists profit from it. Make
sure you document it as best you can and disseminate your views.
Nevertheless, inevitably, as you have done here, you will have to do so
with references to Segovia. Therein lies an aspect of his greatness in
the development of our instrumental technique. You cannot do so while he
is the elephant in the room, i.e. Segovia is to guitar in the 20th
century what Paganini was to the violin and Liszt/Chopin were to their
instrument in their day. Perforce, we must make reference to Segovia,
either embracing (imitation) or rejecting (determining he is NOT a model
to imitate) as we move ahead in the development of an all-problems
solving technique into the 21st century and beyond.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I don't accept your equating self teaching with musical illiteracy.
I merely reference my own own experience. I was doing quite well as a
performer of music without external instruction beyond my own
observation, but I achieved an unimagined leap when I sat at the feet of
my masters, both on my instrument and in my compositional instruction.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The
fallacy is that, according to your expressed view of the nature of
instruction by example, illiterates are without the means of self
instruction.
No, see my examples above. I merely commented how often self taught
and/or musically illiterate OFTEN come together as promotional pap. Some
musical beings, IMHO, DO come to us quasi fully formed, like Athena from
the brow of Zeus! Far too many examples to cite.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Even if all instruction were by example, all example would
not be instruction. dave
Most respectfully, IMHO, There, I believe you stepped on your xxxx.

Rejection of models is what you describe in your critique of Segovia's
RH wrist relaxation. Is that not, by your own assertions, a learning
experience that you have ascertained by imitation, examination and
rejection?

Have you not in fact done what I described earlier?

BTW, UNBELIEVABLE!

IMHO, a polite yet interesting exchange of views about the guitar, its
history and technique in RMCG. How satisfying and how rare. Thank you,
kind sir.
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-28 17:51:30 UTC
Permalink
Of course I was already working on the unrevised version. Must stop...
;-) daveA

Curmudgeon
2008-02-25 18:37:54 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 25, 12:25 pm, David Raleigh Arnold <***@cox.net> wrote:
 
My teachers were Bill Harris, Sophocles Papas, and Segovia.
You're the first person (besides myself) I've ever encountered who
studied with Bill Harris. He was the real deal - I met him through a
work colleague who lived down the street from him off Bladensburg
Road. I studied with Bill about 1964-66 or thereabouts - a great
experience.

Dave
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-25 21:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curmudgeon
 
My teachers were Bill Harris, Sophocles Papas, and Segovia.
You're the first person (besides myself) I've ever encountered who
studied with Bill Harris. He was the real deal - I met him through a
work colleague who lived down the street from him off Bladensburg Road.
I studied with Bill about 1964-66 or thereabouts - a great experience.
Dave
I have said about him since 1966 or earlier that he was the only guitar
teacher I ever had who never taught me anything wrong about guitar
playing.

Billy Banks is another one, and he's in Falls Church or nearby. Do you
know him? daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.

Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.

Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.

Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.

Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.

(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)

The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.

Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.

email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
all thumbs
2008-02-26 00:01:31 UTC
Permalink
--
Playing "as written" is blah blah blah
Efficiency is a shadow which blah blah blah
Tension is an asset to be blah blah blah
Your autonomic nervous system has blah blah blah
Skill is blah blah blah
Tension is never dysfunctional. It always blah blah blah
(Of course blah blah blah)
The primitive part of the blah blah blah
Trying to improve efficiency by blah blah blah
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Why don't you get rid of this insane 9 paragraph (including one in
parenthesis) signature. Nobody wants to look a it every time you make
a post. It's obnoxious to repeatedly post something that requires
excessive scrolling. God knows what it says,--I assure you no one has
read it.
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-26 00:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by all thumbs
Why don't you get rid of this insane 9 paragraph (including one in
parenthesis) signature. Nobody wants to look a it every time you make a
post. It's obnoxious to repeatedly post something that requires
excessive scrolling. God knows what it says,--I assure you no one has
read it.
Some have, and from their silly arguments I have been able to make it
longer. It will be put elsewhere soon. It's not my fault that people
don't turn off the quoting of sigs. They should. Why didn't you? daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.

Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.

Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.

Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.

Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.

(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)

The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.

Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.

email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Lutemann
2008-02-26 16:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by all thumbs
Why don't you get rid of this insane 9 paragraph (including one in
parenthesis) signature. Nobody wants to look a it every time you make a
post. It's obnoxious to repeatedly post something that requires
excessive scrolling. God knows what it says,--I assure you no one has
read it.
Some have, and from their silly arguments I have been able to make it
longer. It will be put elsewhere soon. It's not my fault that people
don't turn off the quoting of sigs. They should. Why didn't you? daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.
Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.
Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.
Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.
Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.
Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.
(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)
The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.
Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Post by all thumbs
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with>>>>>

You eliminate dysfunctional tension by first changing the way things
look and then the student must feel his way to coordinated movements.
If a student sticks his little finger out like he's holding a teacup,
you have him consciously move the 'mac' complex like one finger in
an 'i' and 'm' alternation. This will tend to break the tension in
'c', and then the student must learn how it feels to have 'c' move
with the other fingers. Same is true of a hunched shoulder. You
watch yourself in the mirror and make the shoulders stay level. This
is what it means to teach technique to a student; they all have these
and other problems. I agree with you that you just can't tell a
student to get rid of dysfunctional tension; you must know techniques
for handling every given problem. The most common problem occurs in
free stroke when the fingers are over-extended ("the claw") . This
plays hell with the tone and kills the ballistic feel. In this case I
usually have students over follow through for a while until they know
what it should feel like. When the fingers start moving fast with
good tone. I know they have found the feeling.
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-26 19:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by all thumbs
Why don't you get rid of this insane 9 paragraph (including one in
parenthesis) signature. Nobody wants to look a it every time you
make a post. It's obnoxious to repeatedly post something that
requires excessive scrolling. God knows what it says,--I assure you
no one has read it.
Some have, and from their silly arguments I have been able to make it
longer. It will be put elsewhere soon. It's not my fault that people
don't turn off the quoting of sigs. They should. Why didn't you?
daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.
Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a consequence,
not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.
Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.
Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down individual
tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will be well
immediately.
Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.
Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.
(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply what
strength you already have.)
The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a lack
of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to its
perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly have
more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying to
yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is best
to be true to yourself.
Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.
best technical exercises for all
guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos
at:http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Post by all thumbs
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with>>>>>
You eliminate dysfunctional tension by first changing the way things
look and then the student must feel his way to coordinated movements. If
a student sticks his little finger out like he's holding a teacup, you
have him consciously move the 'mac' complex like one finger in an 'i'
and 'm' alternation. This will tend to break the tension in 'c', and
then the student must learn how it feels to have 'c' move with the other
fingers.
No, train the quattro to do some useful things, namely 5 note chords and
artificial harmonics. There is no point in training it to do something
useless. Why do you use the Portuguese cuatro instead of the 'q' for the
Italian quattro, or for the Spanish men~ique, or peqen~o?
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Same is true of a hunched shoulder. You watch yourself in the
mirror
No, move the guitar, or you are just trading one problem for another.
daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.

Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.

Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.

Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.

Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.

(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)

The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.

Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.

email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Lutemann
2008-02-27 02:25:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by all thumbs
Why don't you get rid of this insane 9 paragraph (including one in
parenthesis) signature. �Nobody wants to look a it every time you
make a post. �It's obnoxious to repeatedly post something that
requires excessive scrolling. �God knows what it says,--I assure you
no one has read it.
Some have, and from their silly arguments I have been able to make it
longer. �It will be put elsewhere soon. �It's not my fault that people
don't turn off the quoting of sigs. �They should. �Why didn't you?
daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.
Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a consequence,
not a cause. �Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.
Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.
Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. �It
is much smarter than you. �Therefore, never try to hunt down individual
tensions and relax them. �Slow down instead, and all will be well
immediately.
Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.
Tension is never dysfunctional. �It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. �If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.
(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply what
strength you already have.)
The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a lack
of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to its
perception of weakness. �Slowing down is the only way to instantly have
more control. �Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying to
yourself about your skill level. �Your brain is not fooled. �It is best
to be true to yourself.
Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.
best technical exercises for all
guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos
at:http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Post by all thumbs
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with>>>>>
You eliminate dysfunctional tension by first changing the way things
look and then the student must feel his way to coordinated movements. If
�a student sticks his little finger out like he's holding a teacup, you
have him consciously move the �'mac' �complex like one finger in an 'i'
and 'm' alternation. This will tend to break the tension in 'c', and
then the student must learn how it feels to have 'c' move with the other
fingers.
No, train the quattro to do some useful things, namely 5 note chords and
artificial harmonics. �There is no point in training it to do something
useless. �Why do you use the Portuguese cuatro instead of the 'q' for the
Italian quattro, or for the Spanish men~ique, or peqen~o?
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
�Same is true of a hunched shoulder. �You watch yourself in the
mirror
No, move the guitar, or you are just trading one problem for another.
daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.
Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. �Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.
Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.
Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. �It
is much smarter than you. �Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. �Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.
Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.
Tension is never dysfunctional. �It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. �If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.
(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)
The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. �Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. �Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. �Your brain is not fooled. �It is
best to be true to yourself.
Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
No, train the quattro to do some useful things, namely 5 note chords
and
artificial harmonics. There is no point in training it to do
something
useless. Why do you use the Portuguese cuatro instead of the 'q' for
the
Italian quattro, or for the Spanish men~ique, or peqen~o?
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Same is true of a hunched shoulder. You watch yourself in the
mirror
No, move the guitar, or you are just trading one problem for another.
daveA
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Why do you use the Portuguese cuatro instead of the 'q' for the
Italian quattro, or for the Spanish men~ique, or peqen~o? >>>

I use what is normally used by most guitarists, I assume 'c' is
cinco.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
No, move the guitar, or you are just trading one problem for another.>>>
A hunched shoulder can be caused by a bad positioning, but certainly
not always. Also, even if you do change the position the shoulder may
remain hunced and it is not as easy to correct as you might think.
I've been through all this myself and can speak from painful
experience.

Two examples:
Bad positioning: go to the Vanilla music site and take a look at the
jazz player pictured. His shoulder was probably caused by poor
positioning. http://www.ralphpatt.com/index.html

Good positioning: take a look at the younger Bream who holds the
guitar in a rather good position but has an extemely hunched
shoulder.
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-27 11:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Why do you use the Portuguese cuatro instead of the 'q' for the
Italian quattro, or for the Spanish men~ique, or peqen~o? >>>
I use what is normally used by most guitarists, I assume 'c' is cinco.
According to Laurindo Almeida, who thought it up, it's cuatro. Consider
it Portuguese.

I don't believe most guitarists use 'c'. If so, they should quit it.
It's like the C4/6IV. Cumbersome and hard to read. IV4 or IVd makes
more sense to me. 'q' makes a lot more sense to me.
Post by Lutemann
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
No, move the guitar, or you are just trading one problem for
another.>>>
A hunched shoulder can be caused by a bad positioning, but certainly not
always.
Always. At least by bad positioning of the shoulder. Simple logic.

Also, even if you do change the position the shoulder may remain
Post by Lutemann
hunced and it is not as easy to correct as you might think. I've been
through all this myself and can speak from painful experience.
You don't see the contradiction? If you move the guitar, pain will make
you stop hunching your shoulder. You have to practice slowly enough to
notice things like that IAC. Simple. Now stop torturing all those
people.
Post by Lutemann
Bad positioning: go to the Vanilla music site and take a look at the
jazz player pictured. His shoulder was probably caused by poor
positioning. http://www.ralphpatt.com/index.html
He probably was too drunk to notice the pain, so he never changed.
Post by Lutemann
Good positioning: take a look at the younger Bream who holds the guitar
in a rather good position but has an extemely hunched shoulder.
He held the guitar high because he held the lute high. He held the lute
high to keep it from falling to the floor. There was never anything
wrong, or corrected. daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.

Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.

Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.

Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.

Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.

(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)

The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.

Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.

email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Wollybird
2008-02-27 12:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Why do you use the Portuguese cuatro instead of the 'q' for the
Italian quattro, or for the Spanish men~ique, or peqen~o? >>>
I use what is normally used by most guitarists, I assume 'c' is
cinco.
chico
thomas
2008-02-25 22:55:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curmudgeon
  
My teachers were Bill Harris, Sophocles Papas, and Segovia.
You're the first person (besides myself) I've ever encountered who
studied with Bill Harris. He was the real deal - I met him through a
work colleague who lived down the street from him off Bladensburg
Road. I studied with Bill about 1964-66 or thereabouts - a great
experience.
I went to Pigfoot or whatever that place was called a few times, but
it was a neighborhood to be very careful in back then (1980s). I have
a couple of his recordings here and there. I always wondered why his
tone was so ratty, given his instructors. Did he do that on purpose?
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-25 23:16:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curmudgeon
  
  
My teachers were Bill Harris, Sophocles Papas, and Segovia.
You're the first person (besides myself) I've ever encountered who
studied with Bill Harris. He was the real deal - I met him through a
work colleague who lived down the street from him off Bladensburg Road.
I studied with Bill about 1964-66 or thereabouts - a great experience.
I went to Pigfoot or whatever that place was called a few times, but it
was a neighborhood to be very careful in back then (1980s). I have a
couple of his recordings here and there. I always wondered why his tone
was so ratty, given his instructors. Did he do that on purpose?
He had a decent guitar before it was smashed by a car door. He should
have had more work done on it, but he finally got a better one from
Velasquez. He did all the right things to get better sound, but not
enough hours. His long suits were jazz, blues, arranging, and writing.
Did he teach Kevin Eubanks too? I believe so, but I'm not sure. daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.

Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.

Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.

Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.

Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.

(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)

The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.

Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.

email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
Curmudgeon
2008-02-25 23:42:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas
Post by Curmudgeon
My teachers were Bill Harris, Sophocles Papas, and Segovia.
You're the first person (besides myself) I've ever encountered who
studied with Bill Harris. He was the real deal - I met him through a
work colleague who lived down the street from him off Bladensburg
Road. I studied with Bill about 1964-66 or thereabouts - a great
experience.
I went to Pigfoot or whatever that place was called a few times, but
it was a neighborhood to be very careful in back then (1980s). I have
a couple of his recordings here and there. I always wondered why his
tone was so ratty, given his instructors. Did he do that on purpose?
His ratty tone was due to his home-grown technique and a rather
unremarkable guitar - his classical was a Tatay, as was mine at the
time: that's what Papas' Guitar Shop was recommending for students.
Also, as a teacher he was not concerned with classical posture,
position, nails, etc. - the stuff we obsess about endlessly. His
interest was in making music: composing, arranging, playing and
singing. Blues/jazz were his thing; he approached classical with
little rigor, and it clearly was not his main interest. Here's a promo
video of him made not too long before he died:
(disregard the overblown
commentary). I still have some of his arrangements, which I pull out
and play from time to time.
Lutemann
2008-02-25 21:29:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I have strong feelings about this as a general issue not specific to
Segovia or any other person, so I am quoting my reply in Delcamp
including the message which precipitated it. I would only add that I do
not claim to be self taught nor do I say that I am presently self taught,
[quote="[omitted]"][quote]
And Segovia "brought along" a Segovia too.[/quote]
That is actually in doubt now. There is some good info on Segovia's
claim to being self taught in the Wikipedia entry on Segovia. In a
nutshell, according to Angelo Gilardino, artistic director of the Andrés
Segovia Foundation in Linares, and a highly respected scholar, Segovia
receive instruction on flamenco guitar at a very young age. It is also
pretty well established that at 22 or 24 Segovia studied under Llobet. I
myself have received what I'd have to classify as "reliable anecdotal
evidence" that he studied with Llobet, in the form of a letter from
Hector Garcia, who was sharing information passed on to him by Pujol.
None of this dimishes his importance in the least. If a musician had to
be self taught to be important we would have to eliminate every major
composer from our music history books including Bach, Mozart, Beethoven,
etc. But it is important that we get an accurate history of our
instrument and its players, and the Segovia autobiography has not been
helpful in that regard. We have to sort out the hyperbole and find the
facts.
In answer to the original question, the complete Tarrega Technical
Studies are published by UE, and cost around $20 US. I'm sure you can
get them in all sorts of ways that are legal since they are in the public
domain, but for $20 it seems much more convenient to just order them from
any of the many legitimate commercial providers of classical guitar music.
[/quote]
I have downloaded the Pascual Roche version and unfortunately I did not
retain the link, but it is to be found for free. It's not worth a damn.
I have had a completely different way of looking at this "self taught"
thing for well over forty years. All guitarists are self taught, and
paradoxically it is very important for a teacher to understand that.
What you learn in a lesson is nothing compared to what you learn when you
are alone with the music. At some point you have to begin to learn
everything from the music, or through the music, whether old or new,
printed or improvised, original or composed by another. I used to
consider myself "Segovia School". My teachers were Bill Harris,
Sophocles Papas, and Segovia. I learned a lot from them. While I have
become an expert in writing grade zero music and writing technical
exercises, the omissions in my training, for which Segovia himself is to
blame in some part through his own fault, were so glaring that I now have
Carcassi and Legnani as my teachers. Obviously I accept responsibility
for not understanding that which my former teachers didn't understand
either. Since my present teachers are long dead, I now can truthfully
say that I am self taught, since I hope never to stop learning.
You should not think of Segovia as a liar on account of his claim to be
self taught. It is a matter of point of view and interpretation in its
essence. Any person is as self taught as he thinks he is. A person who
says he didn't learn anything from a teacher may be wrong, he may be
right, he may come to change his mind one way or the other, but he is not
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.
Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.
Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.
Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.
Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.
Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.
(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)
The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.
Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
I would consider Segovia self taught since his main contributions to
technique and music seem to be his. Getting a few flamenco lessons is
not really being taught.
David Raleigh Arnold
2008-02-25 23:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I have strong feelings about this as a general issue not specific to
Segovia or any other person, so I am quoting my reply in Delcamp
including the message which precipitated it. I would only add that I
do not claim to be self taught nor do I say that I am presently self
[quote="[omitted]"][quote]
And Segovia "brought along" a Segovia too.[/quote]
That is actually in doubt now. There is some good info on Segovia's
claim to being self taught in the Wikipedia entry on Segovia. In a
nutshell, according to Angelo Gilardino, artistic director of the
Andrés Segovia Foundation in Linares, and a highly respected scholar,
Segovia receive instruction on flamenco guitar at a very young age. It
is also pretty well established that at 22 or 24 Segovia studied under
Llobet. I myself have received what I'd have to classify as "reliable
anecdotal evidence" that he studied with Llobet, in the form of a
letter from Hector Garcia, who was sharing information passed on to him
by Pujol.
None of this dimishes his importance in the least. If a musician had
to be self taught to be important we would have to eliminate every
major composer from our music history books including Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, etc. But it is important that we get an accurate history of
our instrument and its players, and the Segovia autobiography has not
been helpful in that regard. We have to sort out the hyperbole and
find the facts.
In answer to the original question, the complete Tarrega Technical
Studies are published by UE, and cost around $20 US. I'm sure you can
get them in all sorts of ways that are legal since they are in the
public domain, but for $20 it seems much more convenient to just order
them from any of the many legitimate commercial providers of classical
guitar music. [/quote]
I have downloaded the Pascual Roche version and unfortunately I did not
retain the link, but it is to be found for free. It's not worth a damn.
I have had a completely different way of looking at this "self taught"
thing for well over forty years. All guitarists are self taught, and
paradoxically it is very important for a teacher to understand that.
What you learn in a lesson is nothing compared to what you learn when
you are alone with the music. At some point you have to begin to learn
everything from the music, or through the music, whether old or new,
printed or improvised, original or composed by another. I used to
consider myself "Segovia School". My teachers were Bill Harris,
Sophocles Papas, and Segovia. I learned a lot from them. While I have
become an expert in writing grade zero music and writing technical
exercises, the omissions in my training, for which Segovia himself is
to blame in some part through his own fault, were so glaring that I now
have Carcassi and Legnani as my teachers. Obviously I accept
responsibility for not understanding that which my former teachers
didn't understand either. Since my present teachers are long dead, I
now can truthfully say that I am self taught, since I hope never to
stop learning.
You should not think of Segovia as a liar on account of his claim to be
self taught. It is a matter of point of view and interpretation in its
essence. Any person is as self taught as he thinks he is. A person who
says he didn't learn anything from a teacher may be wrong, he may be
right, he may come to change his mind one way or the other, but he is
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.
Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a consequence,
not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.
Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.
Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down individual
tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will be well
immediately.
Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.
Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.
(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply what
strength you already have.)
The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a lack
of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to its
perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly have
more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying to
yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is best
to be true to yourself.
Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.
best technical exercises for all
guitarists.http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos
at:http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
I would consider Segovia self taught since his main contributions to
technique and music seem to be his. Getting a few flamenco lessons is
not really being taught.
Unless you are learning flamenco. daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.

Efficiency is a shadow which follows effective practice, a
consequence, not a cause. Therefore, seek beauty, not her shadow.

Tension is an asset to be managed by tempo, not an obstacle to be
overcome by relaxation.

Your autonomic nervous system has millions of years of experience. It
is much smarter than you. Therefore, never try to hunt down
individual tensions and relax them. Slow down instead, and all will
be well immediately.

Skill is strength and control. Relaxation produces neither.

Tension is never dysfunctional. It always makes you stronger, and
that's what it's for, doing its job. If you refuse to slow down and
let it help you, which is the only way to manage, moderate, and profit
from tension, the tension is not dysfunctional, you are dysfunctional.

(Of course most initial gains of strength are in learning to apply
what strength you already have.)

The primitive part of the brain that makes you tense cannot tell a
lack of ability from physical weakness, so tension is its response to
its perception of weakness. Slowing down is the only way to instantly
have more control. Relaxation techniques are nothing more than lying
to yourself about your skill level. Your brain is not fooled. It is
best to be true to yourself.

Trying to improve efficiency by eliminating "dysfunctional" tension is
like telling someone he should learn to run before he can walk, or
trying to repair a Swiss watch with hammer and chisel, or trying to
relieve constipation by covering yourself with xxxx.

email: ***@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The best technical exercises for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
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