Discussion:
Instructional DVD?
(too old to reply)
Lucy
2005-10-15 18:29:22 UTC
Permalink
New to classical guitar - more experience with regular fingerstyle
acoustic playing - I feel the need to focus more on the basics of the
classical guitar, technique, proper finger rolls, etc. There are a
number of video's on web searches but I have no idea which to pick. I
learn best by watching and following a book rather then the book alone.
Can anyone suggest a good dvd to purchase?

Thanks, Lucy
Luteboy
2005-10-15 18:39:38 UTC
Permalink
Pumping Nylon

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=pumping+nylon&btnG=Search
e***@yahoo.com
2005-10-15 18:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
New to classical guitar - more experience with regular fingerstyle
acoustic playing - I feel the need to focus more on the basics of the
classical guitar, technique, proper finger rolls, etc. There are a
number of video's on web searches but I have no idea which to pick. I
learn best by watching and following a book rather then the book alone.
Can anyone suggest a good dvd to purchase?
Thanks, Lucy
Lucy,

They best introduction to Classical Guitar is lessons with a CG
teacher. The righthand technique is best taught in person with instant
interaction. I doubt you will get much from a DVD or book.

Ed S.
Francisco Burgos
2005-10-15 19:17:40 UTC
Permalink
I have posted videos for the absolut beginner on my website. I hope they can
be of help to you.


Best wishes


Francisco Burgos
www.burgosguitar.com
Post by Lucy
New to classical guitar - more experience with regular fingerstyle
acoustic playing - I feel the need to focus more on the basics of the
classical guitar, technique, proper finger rolls, etc. There are a
number of video's on web searches but I have no idea which to pick. I
learn best by watching and following a book rather then the book alone.
Can anyone suggest a good dvd to purchase?
Thanks, Lucy
Lucy
2005-10-17 23:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Thank you - this is very helpful.

Lucy
Steven Bornfeld
2005-10-15 19:41:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
New to classical guitar - more experience with regular fingerstyle
acoustic playing - I feel the need to focus more on the basics of the
classical guitar, technique, proper finger rolls, etc. There are a
number of video's on web searches but I have no idea which to pick. I
learn best by watching and following a book rather then the book alone.
Can anyone suggest a good dvd to purchase?
Thanks, Lucy
I think Bill Kanengiser's videos are helpful (but Kent would doubtless
disagree ;-))

Steve
--
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John D. Rimmer
2005-10-15 20:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by Lucy
New to classical guitar - more experience with regular fingerstyle
acoustic playing - I feel the need to focus more on the basics of the
classical guitar, technique, proper finger rolls, etc. There are a
number of video's on web searches but I have no idea which to pick. I
learn best by watching and following a book rather then the book alone.
Can anyone suggest a good dvd to purchase? Thanks, Lucy
I think Bill Kanengiser's videos are helpful (but Kent would doubtless
disagree ;-))
Steve
I second that -- on both counts!

nhoJ
Kent Murdick
2005-10-15 22:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Let me add with the rest that there is no substitute for a good
teacher. Watching Tennant's video can be helpful if you know what to
look for. You might want to take a look at my free videos. You may
find them at Stringdancer.com. Just do a search for Murdick at this
site. These videos won't teach you the classic guitar, but they might
help you when looking for a good teacher.
virtual
2005-10-15 22:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
New to classical guitar - more experience with regular fingerstyle
acoustic playing - I feel the need to focus more on the basics of the
classical guitar, technique, proper finger rolls, etc. There are a
number of video's on web searches but I have no idea which to pick. I
learn best by watching and following a book rather then the book alone.
Can anyone suggest a good dvd to purchase?
Thanks, Lucy
Hi,

It takes five minutes to get a bad habit, and six month to get rid of it.

If you can, find the best teacher you can afford. On the long run it is
cheaper and faster.

Some people are posing as guitar teacher, this is where you have to be
careful.

It there is a College or University with a Faculty or Department of
music where you live, it is your best bet. Enquire if they teach
non-credit courses, or if there is somebody they can recommend.

Have fun
--
Resources to play the guitar for fun and relaxation

http://www.virtualguitarcenter.com

***@virtualguitarcenter.com
Lucy
2005-10-16 05:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for all the replys. I have taken acoustic guitar lessons and
have a wonderful teacher. I am going to start Classical lessons after
the first of the year but still would like a video to do some work
with. I do understand that it's hard to unlearn a bad technique. But I
would still like to do some self teaching. I appreciate all the info.

Lucy
richard c spross
2005-10-17 01:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
Thanks for all the replys. I have taken acoustic guitar lessons and
have a wonderful teacher. I am going to start Classical lessons after
the first of the year but still would like a video to do some work
with. I do understand that it's hard to unlearn a bad technique. But I
would still like to do some self teaching. I appreciate all the info.
Lucy
Lucy,

I don't have a DVD player, not even a VCR or TV, but my students
over the years have commented upon their observations of some of these
"instructional" attempts. There are several obstacles to overcome.
The first being that in the Classical guitar world there are many
variations
of theory regarding seating position, arm and hand location, and the
method of using one's fingers, for the right hand. There is less debate
about the use of the left hand, although I can think of two major schools

which would use opposing approaches. Maybe three.

So the problem is when trying to locate a qualified teacher, you need to
be aware of what "school" of methodology the teacher represents. Can
the teacher illustrate the many alternative ways of playing CG and
explain
their attributes or their deficiencies.

If the teacher is only aware of one way to do it , then you need to find
out
from what tradition the teacher arises and you will need to make a
decision
if such is what you want.

In a perfect world if you could try out several teachers over a period of
time
you may be able to get a broader perspective.

Going forth with the above information, when you observe these teaching
videos it will help to notice the differences in approach among them,
plus
you will have to have an excellent sense of spatial relationships when
observing the footage. Subtle differences can be huge later on.

I would recommend you look at the Christopher Parkening Method vol 1.
Then I would recommend you look at Aaron Shearer's new books on
beginning classical guitar.
If you can find a used copy of Frederick Noad's Beginning Classical
guitar,
and then compare the positional information in each.

For example, in the Noad, the poor model has her head nearly bent in an L

over the guitar. Would you really believe that is what is supposed to
happen?

In the first Shearer book, I'm trusting he may have changed this although
maybe
not, the angle of the guitar relative to the body, is the opposite of
what
Christopher Parkening advocates.

The advantage of Shearer is that it promotes the speed of the right hand
at the
expense of the left.

The advantage of the Parkening is that it promotes the easy of the left
hand
at the expense of the speed of the right hand., ( unless a competent
teacher
is guiding you through the minefield )

Then Charles Duncan's " The Art of Classical Guitar Playing" and
Lee Ryan's "The Natural Guitar" are exhaustive treatises expounding
the more contemporary technical approach to the Classical Guitar
currently
in vogue in the U.S.A.

So if you can do some homework before you dive into the DVD's it will
help
you sort out what you are seeing and then perhaps you'll be able to
profit
some from them, without doing too much mistaken learning.

I use Chris' method because it has the best pictures of what is close to
what
I do.

Good luck,
Richard Spross
John D. Rimmer
2005-10-17 01:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard c spross
Post by Lucy
Thanks for all the replys. I have taken acoustic guitar lessons and
have a wonderful teacher. I am going to start Classical lessons after
the first of the year but still would like a video to do some work
with. I do understand that it's hard to unlearn a bad technique. But I
would still like to do some self teaching. I appreciate all the info.
Lucy
Lucy,
I don't have a DVD player, not even a VCR or TV, but my students
over the years have commented upon their observations of some of these
"instructional" attempts. There are several obstacles to overcome.
The first being that in the Classical guitar world there are many
variations
of theory regarding seating position, arm and hand location, and the
method of using one's fingers, for the right hand. There is less debate
about the use of the left hand, although I can think of two major schools
which would use opposing approaches. Maybe three.
So the problem is when trying to locate a qualified teacher, you need to
be aware of what "school" of methodology the teacher represents. Can
the teacher illustrate the many alternative ways of playing CG and
explain
their attributes or their deficiencies.
If the teacher is only aware of one way to do it , then you need to find
out
from what tradition the teacher arises and you will need to make a
decision
if such is what you want.
In a perfect world if you could try out several teachers over a period of
time
you may be able to get a broader perspective.
Going forth with the above information, when you observe these teaching
videos it will help to notice the differences in approach among them,
plus
you will have to have an excellent sense of spatial relationships when
observing the footage. Subtle differences can be huge later on.
I would recommend you look at the Christopher Parkening Method vol 1.
Then I would recommend you look at Aaron Shearer's new books on
beginning classical guitar.
If you can find a used copy of Frederick Noad's Beginning Classical
guitar,
and then compare the positional information in each.
For example, in the Noad, the poor model has her head nearly bent in an L
over the guitar. Would you really believe that is what is supposed to
happen?
In the first Shearer book, I'm trusting he may have changed this although
maybe
not, the angle of the guitar relative to the body, is the opposite of
what
Christopher Parkening advocates.
The advantage of Shearer is that it promotes the speed of the right hand
at the
expense of the left.
The advantage of the Parkening is that it promotes the easy of the left
hand
at the expense of the speed of the right hand., ( unless a competent
teacher
is guiding you through the minefield )
Then Charles Duncan's " The Art of Classical Guitar Playing" and
Lee Ryan's "The Natural Guitar" are exhaustive treatises expounding
the more contemporary technical approach to the Classical Guitar
currently
in vogue in the U.S.A.
So if you can do some homework before you dive into the DVD's it will
help
you sort out what you are seeing and then perhaps you'll be able to
profit
some from them, without doing too much mistaken learning.
I use Chris' method because it has the best pictures of what is close to
what
I do.
Good luck,
Richard Spross
Richard,

I whole-hearted agree with you on getting several sources! I took upon my
serious study of CG on my own and found the diverse range and multi-schools
confusing. But I read and re-read -- watched good players in person,
concert, and in video -- and then decided what I might do. Ultimately,
getting a lesson from a great guitarist made the path clear. He could
explain everything from CP to Segovia's RHs and then gave me exactly zero
rules. No rules at all. Just principles.

nhoJ
e***@yahoo.com
2005-10-17 16:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard c spross
Post by Lucy
Thanks for all the replys. I have taken acoustic guitar lessons and
have a wonderful teacher. I am going to start Classical lessons after
the first of the year but still would like a video to do some work
with. I do understand that it's hard to unlearn a bad technique. But I
would still like to do some self teaching. I appreciate all the info.
Lucy
Lucy,
I don't have a DVD player, not even a VCR or TV, but my students
over the years have commented upon their observations of some of these
"instructional" attempts. There are several obstacles to overcome.
The first being that in the Classical guitar world there are many
variations
of theory regarding seating position, arm and hand location, and the
method of using one's fingers, for the right hand. There is less debate
about the use of the left hand, although I can think of two major schools
which would use opposing approaches. Maybe three.
So the problem is when trying to locate a qualified teacher, you need to
be aware of what "school" of methodology the teacher represents. Can
the teacher illustrate the many alternative ways of playing CG and
explain
their attributes or their deficiencies.
If the teacher is only aware of one way to do it , then you need to find
out
from what tradition the teacher arises and you will need to make a
decision
if such is what you want.
In a perfect world if you could try out several teachers over a period of
time
you may be able to get a broader perspective.
Going forth with the above information, when you observe these teaching
videos it will help to notice the differences in approach among them,
plus
you will have to have an excellent sense of spatial relationships when
observing the footage. Subtle differences can be huge later on.
I would recommend you look at the Christopher Parkening Method vol 1.
Then I would recommend you look at Aaron Shearer's new books on
beginning classical guitar.
If you can find a used copy of Frederick Noad's Beginning Classical
guitar,
and then compare the positional information in each.
For example, in the Noad, the poor model has her head nearly bent in an L
over the guitar. Would you really believe that is what is supposed to
happen?
In the first Shearer book, I'm trusting he may have changed this although
maybe
not, the angle of the guitar relative to the body, is the opposite of
what
Christopher Parkening advocates.
The advantage of Shearer is that it promotes the speed of the right hand
at the
expense of the left.
The advantage of the Parkening is that it promotes the easy of the left
hand
at the expense of the speed of the right hand., ( unless a competent
teacher
is guiding you through the minefield )
Then Charles Duncan's " The Art of Classical Guitar Playing" and
Lee Ryan's "The Natural Guitar" are exhaustive treatises expounding
the more contemporary technical approach to the Classical Guitar
currently
in vogue in the U.S.A.
So if you can do some homework before you dive into the DVD's it will
help
you sort out what you are seeing and then perhaps you'll be able to
profit
some from them, without doing too much mistaken learning.
I use Chris' method because it has the best pictures of what is close to
what
I do.
Good luck,
Richard Spross
Richard,
Post by richard c spross
I would recommend you look at the Christopher Parkening Method vol 1.
Then I would recommend you look at Aaron Shearer's new books on
beginning classical guitar.
I was assigned Milan's Pavan #1 from Christopher Parkening Vol.2 book
and he has some interesting performance notes on this and other pieces.
Fred Noad's Renaissance book has the same piece with a slightly
different performance notes. Parkening's vol. 2 is a good resource to
have around.

Ed S.
Larry Deack
2005-10-17 16:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
I was assigned Milan's Pavan #1 from Christopher Parkening Vol.2
I never 'assign' pieces to students. I make suggestions but
encourage individual choices for repertoire. I play a lot of pieces for
them and ask them to find more on their own.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
he has some interesting performance notes on this and other pieces.
I recently went over that pavan with a student who had studied it
with another teacher. What I found interesting was that we both said
pretty much the same things like "polyphony".
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Fred Noad's Renaissance book has the same piece with a slightly
different performance notes.
To me the most important point is "polyphony". Fingers must hold
notes so the voices overlap. The overlapping is not the only way to
create depth but it's the thing students seem to work on most when
learning these pieces.

Have you tried playing them with a capo at II? To me it seems to make
it easier to create voice independence when the guitar's resonance is
not mushing up the lines as much and the capo such seems to cut down on
the that mushy sound.
e***@yahoo.com
2005-10-17 16:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by e***@yahoo.com
I was assigned Milan's Pavan #1 from Christopher Parkening Vol.2
I never 'assign' pieces to students. I make suggestions but
encourage individual choices for repertoire. I play a lot of pieces for
them and ask them to find more on their own.
Semantics of the lesson dialog - potato, pahtahtoh. If my teacher
suggests a piece it is because he thought about what I need to
accomplish/fix/learn next.
Post by Larry Deack
Post by e***@yahoo.com
he has some interesting performance notes on this and other pieces.
I recently went over that pavan with a student who had studied it
with another teacher. What I found interesting was that we both said
pretty much the same things like "polyphony".
That was the reason it was suggested - the polyphony and the technique
to bring out and sustain the individual voices. CG Renaissance music
si similar to modern jazz guitar, IMO.
Post by Larry Deack
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Fred Noad's Renaissance book has the same piece with a slightly
different performance notes.
To me the most important point is "polyphony". Fingers must hold
notes so the voices overlap. The overlapping is not the only way to
create depth but it's the thing students seem to work on most when
learning these pieces.
The four voices became apparent by the first 4 bars. It is a great
piece to learn to hear and play chords as stacked, moving voices rather
than just "chords". I play it very slow at this time working on the
fingering that sustains the voices. I have also found new LH chord
forming techiques - forming partial C-chords behind the G and
Am-chords, anticipating changes. It has slowed my progress initially
but is adding to my LH abilties.
Post by Larry Deack
Have you tried playing them with a capo at II? To me it seems to make
it easier to create voice independence when the guitar's resonance is
not mushing up the lines as much and the capo such seems to cut down on
the that mushy sound.
No, but the tendency for the sound to get mushy is there. I'm not
playing it up to speed and from memory so I have a different set of
issues. I play the full chords closer to the bridge, and move back
toward the soundhole for the treble runs and thinner chords.

I played the first half yesterday at the salon and was not happy with
this and another performance. I need to have a discussion at my next
lesson since I think I need some remedial technique work and may
request to add a few of the "easy" studies to my practice. It may be
just me but I need a series of little successes along the way, like
mastering Giuliani, Sor, Carulli studies.

Hitting the lottery and retiring would really help. ;-) Yeah, right...

Ed S.
Larry Deack
2005-10-17 17:32:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Semantics of the lesson dialog - potato, pahtahtoh. If my teacher
suggests a piece it is because he thought about what I need to
accomplish/fix/learn next.
I make a point that my students should try to understand what they
need before I suggest it so they don't become dependent on me. I have
found that students do better when they find as many answer on their own
as they can even though it's more work for them.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
That was the reason it was suggested - the polyphony and the technique
to bring out and sustain the individual voices. CG Renaissance music
si similar to modern jazz guitar, IMO.
Not sure what you mean here.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
The four voices became apparent by the first 4 bars. It is a great
piece to learn to hear and play chords as stacked, moving voices rather
than just "chords". I play it very slow at this time working on the
fingering that sustains the voices. I have also found new LH chord
forming techiques - forming partial C-chords behind the G and
Am-chords, anticipating changes. It has slowed my progress initially
but is adding to my LH abilties.
The LH anticipation is something many students seem to miss in the
beginning. In animation "anticipation" changed everything but few guitar
teachers teach this to students.

http://www.mouseplanet.com/foundations/fm040914sh.htm

You must move your LH constantly to take advantage of the time you
have while holding other notes, especially in polyphony. I was just
talking to a friend who is doing a lot of CG related videos about how
I'd like to do one on LH anticipations and have been looking for good
examples in the repertoire.

Looks like you are on the right track.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
No, but the tendency for the sound to get mushy is there. I'm not
playing it up to speed and from memory so I have a different set of
issues. I play the full chords closer to the bridge, and move back
toward the soundhole for the treble runs and thinner chords.
Try it with the capo. I'm not sure I even think about where I play
with the RH but I don't use a lot of big contrasts. Rhythm is very
important too and I work hard to keep things moving forward while look
for voices to phrase and imitations to bring out by imitating
inflections and tempo. I like to make long notes longer and group short
notes so the are closer to the long note at the end of the group.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
I played the first half yesterday at the salon and was not happy with
this and another performance. I need to have a discussion at my next
lesson since I think I need some remedial technique work and may
request to add a few of the "easy" studies to my practice. It may be
just me but I need a series of little successes along the way, like
mastering Giuliani, Sor, Carulli studies.
Go really slow through each fingering. I sometimes walk through
entire pieces spoon feeding the exact fingerings I use including
anticipations to the student so they get the idea of the level of detail
needed to make the vertical and horizontal ideas work at the same time.
I recently walked one student through the Lagrima B section high part
where the staggered voices are complicated by the stretches. He got it
after we took it note by note and nailed it in his performance last
Saturday night.

Big problems are just lots of small problems that all need to be
solved individually and most students are surprised by how many little
details must be solved to play fluidly and musically with good voice
separation. I'm sure you know all this and you seem to have a good
teacher to help.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Hitting the lottery and retiring would really help. ;-) Yeah, right...
I'd bet on myself before I'd bet on the lottery. YMMV ;-)
e***@yahoo.com
2005-10-17 17:48:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Semantics of the lesson dialog - potato, pahtahtoh. If my teacher
suggests a piece it is because he thought about what I need to
accomplish/fix/learn next.
I make a point that my students should try to understand what they
need before I suggest it so they don't become dependent on me. I have
found that students do better when they find as many answer on their own
as they can even though it's more work for them.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
That was the reason it was suggested - the polyphony and the technique
to bring out and sustain the individual voices. CG Renaissance music
si similar to modern jazz guitar, IMO.
Not sure what you mean here.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
The four voices became apparent by the first 4 bars. It is a great
piece to learn to hear and play chords as stacked, moving voices rather
than just "chords". I play it very slow at this time working on the
fingering that sustains the voices. I have also found new LH chord
forming techiques - forming partial C-chords behind the G and
Am-chords, anticipating changes. It has slowed my progress initially
but is adding to my LH abilties.
The LH anticipation is something many students seem to miss in the
beginning. In animation "anticipation" changed everything but few guitar
teachers teach this to students.
http://www.mouseplanet.com/foundations/fm040914sh.htm
You must move your LH constantly to take advantage of the time you
have while holding other notes, especially in polyphony. I was just
talking to a friend who is doing a lot of CG related videos about how
I'd like to do one on LH anticipations and have been looking for good
examples in the repertoire.
Looks like you are on the right track.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
No, but the tendency for the sound to get mushy is there. I'm not
playing it up to speed and from memory so I have a different set of
issues. I play the full chords closer to the bridge, and move back
toward the soundhole for the treble runs and thinner chords.
Try it with the capo. I'm not sure I even think about where I play
with the RH but I don't use a lot of big contrasts. Rhythm is very
important too and I work hard to keep things moving forward while look
for voices to phrase and imitations to bring out by imitating
inflections and tempo. I like to make long notes longer and group short
notes so the are closer to the long note at the end of the group.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
I played the first half yesterday at the salon and was not happy with
this and another performance. I need to have a discussion at my next
lesson since I think I need some remedial technique work and may
request to add a few of the "easy" studies to my practice. It may be
just me but I need a series of little successes along the way, like
mastering Giuliani, Sor, Carulli studies.
Go really slow through each fingering. I sometimes walk through
entire pieces spoon feeding the exact fingerings I use including
anticipations to the student so they get the idea of the level of detail
needed to make the vertical and horizontal ideas work at the same time.
I recently walked one student through the Lagrima B section high part
where the staggered voices are complicated by the stretches. He got it
after we took it note by note and nailed it in his performance last
Saturday night.
Big problems are just lots of small problems that all need to be
solved individually and most students are surprised by how many little
details must be solved to play fluidly and musically with good voice
separation. I'm sure you know all this and you seem to have a good
teacher to help.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Hitting the lottery and retiring would really help. ;-) Yeah, right...
I'd bet on myself before I'd bet on the lottery. YMMV ;-)
Larry,
Post by Larry Deack
Post by e***@yahoo.com
That was the reason it was suggested - the polyphony and the technique
to bring out and sustain the individual voices. CG Renaissance music
si similar to modern jazz guitar, IMO.
Not sure what you mean here.
When I "tried" to teach myself Jazz guitar, I read a lot of unstruction
books, articles, etc. When I read about chord solo jazz work the best
players of that style said to think of each note of a chord must
resolve to a note in the next chord. It wasn't as much chord
resolution as voice resolution. There are jazz players in general,
including guitarists, that compose on the spot or in real time.
Post by Larry Deack
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Hitting the lottery and retiring would really help. ;-) Yeah, right...
I'd bet on myself before I'd bet on the lottery. YMMV ;-)
You are absolutely right.
I hope to have pavan #1 ready for a slow but accurate performance for
the November salon.

The "biggest" small decision I made was to practice using the metronome
at slow speeds so I could see the mistake as it happened.

Thank you for the comments and advice.

Ed S.
Lucy
2005-10-17 23:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Richard,
Thank you for taking the time to provide this information for me.
Really appreciate it. I do find it confusing in looking at the
literature because of the different methods.

Lucy
rcspross
2005-10-18 17:55:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by John D. Rimmer
Richard,
Thank you for taking the time to provide this information for me.
Really appreciate it. I do find it confusing in looking at the
literature because of the different methods.
Lucy
You are welcome Lucy.

Just take your time sorting things out.
This advice may be of help, you are of course welcome to take it on
advisement accordingly.

The first and most important choice to be made is how to hold the
guitar.
I recommend the Parkening approach ( not the ladies example sic )

However as you peruse the suggested reading and observe the recommended
DVD's take time to notice the differences in seating positions, try them
out
before you come to a final conclusion.

The next choice is where to place your forearm on the side of the
guitar.
Many people play with it balanced between elbow and hand with the hand
in a straight line with the fore arme.

I'm not an exponent of that approach, although these days there are
legions of
players doing this successfully.

I prefer to rest the forearm on the outer edge of the guitar in such a
way that
my upper arm is in alignment with my shoulder collar. The analogy is as
if
I were resting my arm on a fence post watching the cowboys break in a
horse.

At any rate you will have to decide where to place it, and the general
idea is
to let the right shoulder lay naturally down, in otherwords to avoid
hunching
or lifting the shoulder.

Having gotten this far, the depending on your choices, the motion of the
forearm
will dictate how and where to place your hand over the strings.

In the manner in which I teach, the forearm can do basically these
motions.
a. It raises and lowers parrallel to the plane of the top.
b. It can rotate toward you so that one sees the back of their hand.
c. It can rotate away from you so that one sees the underside of one's
hand
d. It can flatten so that the underside of the wrist comes close to the
strings,
e.It can extend outward so that the wrist arches away from the strings.

From those choices the hand ( which begins by being naturally draped
from
the wrist ) then is located over the strings.

Depending on the length of your fingers the underside of the wrist can
be anywhere
from 3 to 5 fingers width away from the guitar's top.

Having maintained the guitar in the position of choice, placed the elbow
accordingly
and centered the hand over the strings,

The next set of choices are finger movements.
Some teachers advocate learing free stroke first, and rest later,
Some teachers try to teach both simultaneously,
Some teachers try to teach rest first and free stroke later.

I would recommend you try out Kent Murdicks video for help in this
regard.
I know he expresses himself rather bluntly, but over the years I've
found
by snipping through this group, that I kind of agree with him. Most
anything
else is too obscure to easily verbalize.

Of course the Ryan and Duncan books are successful treatises on this
aspect
of hand location and manipulation.

What you do with the left hand is going to be principally dictated by
your seating position,
so just read, and watch.

It is very subtle what is to be done and as usual there are a variety of
approaches.
The one thing that differentiates CG players from acousitc players is
the postion of the
left hand thumb. Parkening has an execellent picture of it's appropriate
placement,
however there is a poverty of information on how to use it.

There is much discussion of this on this newgroup, mostly centered
around William
David Jennings aka Che' de.....

I think I've even gone into it at length, but I can't pinpoint where on
when.

David Raleigh Arnold on this ng has much to say about it as well.

I hope that helps give you some starting direction.
Feel free to e-mail me if you want any further info.

Best wishes,
Richard Spross
Kent Murdick
2005-10-19 16:55:34 UTC
Permalink
I use Chris' method because it has the best pictures of what is close to >>
What you and Chris never mention, however, is that is that technique is
really all about mechanical principles, not where you put your arm,
hand, thumb, etc. Mechanically, we all operate the same way and a
technique should based on this knowledge.
rcspross
2005-10-19 17:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Gee Kent,

That's a mistaken observation. I illustrated in my post the very thing you
say I didn't.
Many times on this newsgroup I've talked about mechanics and I do this
with my students constantly.

Richard
Post by Kent Murdick
I use Chris' method because it has the best pictures of what is close to >>
What you and Chris never mention, however, is that is that technique is
really all about mechanical principles, not where you put your arm,
hand, thumb, etc. Mechanically, we all operate the same way and a
technique should based on this knowledge.
John Rethorst
2005-10-16 21:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by virtual
It takes five minutes to get a bad habit, and six month to get rid of it.
If you can, find the best teacher you can afford. On the long run it is
cheaper and faster.
Some people are posing as guitar teacher, this is where you have to be
careful.
It there is a College or University with a Faculty or Department of
music where you live, it is your best bet. Enquire if they teach
non-credit courses, or if there is somebody they can recommend.
These are very good recommendations. Consider that you can watch a DVD as well
as you can watch a teacher, but that only one of the two can watch you.

In another post, Lucy, you say you plan to get a teacher but want to start with
a DVD. But the hardest bad habits to unlearn are those that come your way the
soonest.

There's more technique involved with classical than with steel-string
fingerstyle, making virtual's recommendations all the more important.
--
John Rethorst
jrethorst at post dot com
Lucy
2005-10-17 18:33:33 UTC
Permalink
John - same thing I posted back to Tom - no teacher here and travel is
not an option. I just asked for info on what dvd's and self instruction
out there people recommend. I do know there are differences with
classical and steel string play - not a youngster. I have gotten some
good feedback and looked at some materials to pick up. Someone asked me
if I would teach myself to play violin. That was a cute question
because recently I had a relatives restored and got a video. Had a
great time learning some things with the violin. I intend to have a
good time with the classical guitar.

Lucy
Steve Perry
2005-10-17 20:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
John - same thing I posted back to Tom - no teacher here and travel is
not an option. I just asked for info on what dvd's and self instruction
out there people recommend. I do know there are differences with
classical and steel string play - not a youngster. I have gotten some
good feedback and looked at some materials to pick up. Someone asked me
if I would teach myself to play violin. That was a cute question
because recently I had a relatives restored and got a video. Had a
great time learning some things with the violin. I intend to have a
good time with the classical guitar.
Lucy
Lucy --


I second the rec for "Pumping Nylon." I've been looking for a teacher
for a long time, finally have a line on one that I can get to without
having to drive an hour and a half or so each way, but I've found that
Tennant is certainly a good enough player to offer advice via DVD
useful for folks who already knows how to tune and hold a guitar.

If you are going to hang around here, probably you've already figured
it out, but very often, the knee-jerk answer to any question you ask,
no matter what it is or how specific you ask it, will be "Find a good
teacher."

In many cases, this is a valid response. Sometimes, it isn't. And once
you explain that finding a good teacher isn't in the cards for you,
you'd think that would slow down the guys saying it -- but it seems
they just say it louder.

"Anybody know of a TAB for Bach's 4th Lute Suite's prelude?" Get a good
teacher. "I broke a finger, any advice?" Get a good teacher. "My spouse
hates mushrooms in her spaghetti sauce." Get a good teacher ...

Not everybody plans to sit on the concert stage, and while classical
ain't acoustic, there are some similarities that might be applicable.
Scales, notes, chords, like that. There are folks who play pretty good
classical pieces on steel-string guitars, and some who have taught
themselves to play classical pieces without a teacher.
--
Steve
Robert Crim
2005-10-17 23:06:58 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:58:38 -0700, Steve Perry
Post by Steve Perry
"Anybody know of a TAB for Bach's 4th Lute Suite's prelude?" Get a good
teacher.
No. They said "learn to read real music"......from a good teacher.
Post by Steve Perry
"I broke a finger, any advice?" Get a good teacher.
No. They said "Get a good doctor."
Post by Steve Perry
"My spouse hates mushrooms in her spaghetti sauce." Get a good teacher ...
No. They said "Leave the mushrooms out, and learn to make spaghetti
sauce without them".........

Robert
Larry Deack
2005-10-17 23:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
No. They said
No. They said
No. They said
Uh, I'm not clear who "they" are but it sure sounds like I'm not the
only one who is confused.
Scott Daughtrey
2005-10-18 02:51:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:58:38 -0700, Steve Perry
Post by Steve Perry
"Anybody know of a TAB for Bach's 4th Lute Suite's prelude?" Get a good
teacher.
No. They said "learn to read real music"......from a good teacher.
Post by Steve Perry
"I broke a finger, any advice?" Get a good teacher.
No. They said "Get a good doctor."
Post by Steve Perry
"My spouse hates mushrooms in her spaghetti sauce." Get a good teacher ...
No. They said "Leave the mushrooms out, and learn to make spaghetti
sauce without them".........
Mr. Crim clearly needs to avoid the magic variety...
dsi1
2005-10-18 02:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Perry
If you are going to hang around here, probably you've already figured
it out, but very often, the knee-jerk answer to any question you ask,
no matter what it is or how specific you ask it, will be "Find a good
teacher."
Please don't forget "Practice my scales." Although I did not find
"Practice my scales" to be helpful in improving my dynamic range, they
are useful for my problems with fulfilling my "husbandly duties." My
yang was limp and unresponsive. This was before we discovered "Practice
my scales." Now my wife does "Practice my scales" nude and I'm liable to
jump her from behind at any time. It's great! Thank you "Practice my
scales!"

Won Hung Lo
Mrs. Hung Lo
2005-10-19 16:57:30 UTC
Permalink
It's great! Thank you "Practice my scales!"<
Won Hung Lo<
I needed good teacher. Now,Won Hung Lo,is,Won Gung Ho

Happy Ho
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Tom Sacold
2005-10-16 08:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
New to classical guitar - more experience with regular fingerstyle
acoustic playing - I feel the need to focus more on the basics of the
classical guitar, technique, proper finger rolls, etc. There are a
number of video's on web searches but I have no idea which to pick. I
learn best by watching and following a book rather then the book alone.
Can anyone suggest a good dvd to purchase?
Thanks, Lucy
Get a qualified teacher. Would you try to learn the violin or flute from a
DVD?
William D Clinger
2005-10-16 20:01:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sacold
Get a qualified teacher. Would you try to learn the
violin or flute from a DVD?
Sure. I learned to play guitar, recorder, clarinet, and
a couple of other instruments from a book. Why wouldn't
DVD+book work even better?

You can, of course, warn Lucy that if she tries to learn
without a teacher, she might end up playing like me. As
Halloween approaches, that becomes even more appropriate.

Will
Toom Tabard
2005-10-16 11:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sacold
Post by Lucy
New to classical guitar - more experience with regular fingerstyle
acoustic playing - I feel the need to focus more on the basics of the
classical guitar, technique, proper finger rolls, etc. There are a
number of video's on web searches but I have no idea which to pick. I
learn best by watching and following a book rather then the book alone.
Can anyone suggest a good dvd to purchase?
Thanks, Lucy
Get a qualified teacher. Would you try to learn the violin or flute from a
DVD?
Yes. If I wanted to learn flute or violin, I would use books, CDs and DVDs
rather than take lessons.

Why not ?

Toom
Lucy
2005-10-17 02:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sacold
Post by Lucy
New to classical guitar - more experience with regular fingerstyle
acoustic playing - I feel the need to focus more on the basics of the
classical guitar, technique, proper finger rolls, etc. There are a
number of video's on web searches but I have no idea which to pick. I
learn best by watching and following a book rather then the book alone.
Can anyone suggest a good dvd to purchase?
Thanks, Lucy
Get a qualified teacher. Would you try to learn the violin or flute from a
DVD?
Hi Tom,
I do appreciate your suggestion. I have been fortunate to have had a
great acoustic guitar teacher. I could never replace what I learned
from her in one on one lessons with a video. Now, I am older and trying
new things. I mean no disrespect for the classical guitar or for people
who have worked hard in lessons to achieve something I know I won't get
from a dvd. I would not expect to ever have their talent.

I live in a rural area without a good classical teacher.I would have
to travel too much for lessons. There are a few instructors that say
they teach all types of guitars but their qualifications are that they
took a class as part of their music program in college. I would want an
instructor that plays classical guitar well. In my situation a video is
very helpful but there are a number of them and I posted to this group
because I felt it was the best place to get feedback. I do better
watching then just trying to following a book. Again - I mean no
disrespect for players who have worked hard in lessons to perfect their
talent. I will only be a classical guitar hobbiest - not a concert
player.

Lucy
Lucy
2005-10-17 02:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sacold
Post by Lucy
New to classical guitar - more experience with regular fingerstyle
acoustic playing - I feel the need to focus more on the basics of the
classical guitar, technique, proper finger rolls, etc. There are a
number of video's on web searches but I have no idea which to pick. I
learn best by watching and following a book rather then the book alone.
Can anyone suggest a good dvd to purchase?
Thanks, Lucy
Get a qualified teacher. Would you try to learn the violin or flute from a
DVD?
Hi Tom,
I do appreciate your suggestion. I have been fortunate to have had a
great acoustic guitar teacher. I could never replace what I learned
from her in one on one lessons with a video. Now, I am older and trying
new things. I mean no disrespect for the classical guitar or for people
who have worked hard in lessons to achieve something I know I won't get
from a dvd. I would not expect to ever have their talent.

I live in a rural area without a good classical teacher.I would have
to travel too much for lessons. There are a few instructors that say
they teach all types of guitars but their qualifications are that they
took a class as part of their music program in college. I would want an
instructor that plays classical guitar well. In my situation a video is
very helpful but there are a number of them and I posted to this group
because I felt it was the best place to get feedback. I do better
watching then just trying to following a book. Again - I mean no
disrespect for players who have worked hard in lessons to perfect their
talent. I will only be a classical guitar hobbiest - not a concert
player.

Lucy
richard c spross
2005-10-17 03:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
Post by Tom Sacold
Post by Lucy
New to classical guitar - more experience with regular fingerstyle
acoustic playing - I feel the need to focus more on the basics of the
classical guitar, technique, proper finger rolls, etc. There are a
number of video's on web searches but I have no idea which to pick. I
learn best by watching and following a book rather then the book alone.
Can anyone suggest a good dvd to purchase?
Thanks, Lucy
Get a qualified teacher. Would you try to learn the violin or flute from a
DVD?
Hi Tom,
I do appreciate your suggestion. I have been fortunate to have had a
great acoustic guitar teacher. I could never replace what I learned
from her in one on one lessons with a video. Now, I am older and trying
new things. I mean no disrespect for the classical guitar or for people
who have worked hard in lessons to achieve something I know I won't get
from a dvd. I would not expect to ever have their talent.
I live in a rural area without a good classical teacher.I would have
to travel too much for lessons. There are a few instructors that say
they teach all types of guitars but their qualifications are that they
took a class as part of their music program in college. I would want an
instructor that plays classical guitar well. In my situation a video is
very helpful but there are a number of them and I posted to this group
because I felt it was the best place to get feedback. I do better
watching then just trying to following a book. Again - I mean no
disrespect for players who have worked hard in lessons to perfect their
talent. I will only be a classical guitar hobbiest - not a concert
player.
Lucy
Dear Lucy,

I don't know if you have read my post yet, however rest assured, it did not
go without notice that you feel that you learn better from a book.

If you study the texts I mentioned which are all consistent best sellers
here in good ol U.S.A. you will be better informed to evaluate what you
see when you do buy a number of DVD's and attempt to learn from them.

I only teach adult hobbyists and have done so for my entire career, making
my best effort to bring to them the best that they could learn within the
limited time usually available.

It would behoove you to find the best classical guitar teacher within striking
distance and then arrange to visit the teacher once a month at the least, if
that
is all that is manageable. At least if the teacher is honest, they will be able
to
help you minimize mistaken motions.

Richard Spross.
Since the rmcg photo album's url is not posted here very often, for those of you

who have come to rmcg in the last three years and wish to be better acquainted
with my background, here then is a link to my website.

http://www.angelfire.com/music4/fret/index.html
a***@yahoo.com
2005-10-17 17:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
I live in a rural area without a good classical teacher.
I would have to travel too much for lessons. There
are a few instructors that say they teach all types of
guitars but their qualifications are that they took a
class as part of their music program in college. I
would want an instructor that plays classical guitar
well. In my situation a video is very helpful but there
are a number of them and I posted to this group
because I felt it was the best place to get feedback.
I do better watching then just trying to following a
book. Again - I mean no disrespect for players who
have worked hard in lessons to perfect their talent.
I will only be a classical guitar hobbiest - not a con-
cert player.
Your situation, of course, isn't ideal for learning to play the
classical guitar. And you're correct to be suspicious of studying with
someone who only dabbles in classical guitar. It's the last sentence in
the above excerpt, however, that concerns me. Let's see if I can
explain why.

Over the years, I've often heard people say that, for them, the guitar
is just a hobby, and they've no desire to become a concert artist. The
unspoken assumption is that they've neither the time nor the
inclination to do the kind of arduous work needed to play on the level
of the concert artist.

But I wonder if people who talk this way have really though it through.
For example, most people who stay with the classical guitar long enough
will eventually try their hand at concert-level pieces. They're usually
unhappy with the initial results. I seldom see someone at this stage
hack through a concert-level piece and then look up with a satisfied
smile and say, "I know that sounded awful, but it's good enough for
me." Almost without exception, they're unhappy with how they sound, and
they want to sound better. Most of their unhappiness is the result of
fundamental flaws in their playing that might have been avoided with
better early training.

Further, many people mistakenly believe that only by practicing six to
eight hours a day can one reach a high level of playing. I've seen
enough to know this is false. For example, I know of a student who,
practicing less than an hour a day, reached the semi-finals of the GFA.
(Perhaps he'd have done better with more practice time, but the point
is that he played well enough to place ahead of about forty-five other
players, all of whom probably practiced more than he did.) Indeed, a
good many concert artists put in less practice time than many
conservatory students. The quality of practice is far more important
than the quantity.

A final thought. Students often try to cut corners on how they go about
learning the guitar. If asked why they do this, they might reply that
it's ridiculous for them to approach practice in the same exacting way
that a concert artist would. But think about this for a moment. If one
could cut corners and get good results, wouldn't concert artists be the
first to jump on that band wagon? The best concert artists can be
considered experts on how to get the best results in the least amount
of time. If they wasted time in unrewarding practice, they wouldn't be
concert-level players.

One might object that concert artists are by definition more talented
than the rest of us. I would reply that if one is less talented, then
one should be more exacting in his or her practice--not less. In other
words, what a talented player might achieve innately, the rest of us
must achieve through good and disciplined practice.

I hope you'll re-think your decision to learn the classical guitar
through videos. At best, videos are only a supplement to good
instruction. Those who've advised you to find a good teacher are
speaking from long and hard-earned experience.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Larry Deack
2005-10-17 17:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Over the years, I've often heard people say that, for them, the guitar
is just a hobby, and they've no desire to become a concert artist. The
unspoken assumption is that they've neither the time nor the
inclination to do the kind of arduous work needed to play on the level
of the concert artist.
I think it's more about performance avoidance with adults. Kids have
not learned to be afraid and with good preparation they don't need to be
afraid of performing.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2005-10-17 18:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Lucy
I live in a rural area without a good classical teacher.
I would have to travel too much for lessons. There
are a few instructors that say they teach all types of
guitars but their qualifications are that they took a
class as part of their music program in college. I
would want an instructor that plays classical guitar
well. In my situation a video is very helpful but there
are a number of them and I posted to this group
because I felt it was the best place to get feedback.
I do better watching then just trying to following a
book. Again - I mean no disrespect for players who
have worked hard in lessons to perfect their talent.
I will only be a classical guitar hobbiest - not a con-
cert player.
Your situation, of course, isn't ideal for learning to play the
classical guitar. And you're correct to be suspicious of studying with
someone who only dabbles in classical guitar. It's the last sentence in
the above excerpt, however, that concerns me. Let's see if I can
explain why.
Over the years, I've often heard people say that, for them, the guitar
is just a hobby, and they've no desire to become a concert artist. The
unspoken assumption is that they've neither the time nor the
inclination to do the kind of arduous work needed to play on the level
of the concert artist.
But I wonder if people who talk this way have really though it through.
For example, most people who stay with the classical guitar long enough
will eventually try their hand at concert-level pieces. They're usually
unhappy with the initial results. I seldom see someone at this stage
hack through a concert-level piece and then look up with a satisfied
smile and say, "I know that sounded awful, but it's good enough for
me." Almost without exception, they're unhappy with how they sound, and
they want to sound better. Most of their unhappiness is the result of
fundamental flaws in their playing that might have been avoided with
better early training.
Further, many people mistakenly believe that only by practicing six to
eight hours a day can one reach a high level of playing. I've seen
enough to know this is false. For example, I know of a student who,
practicing less than an hour a day, reached the semi-finals of the GFA.
(Perhaps he'd have done better with more practice time, but the point
is that he played well enough to place ahead of about forty-five other
players, all of whom probably practiced more than he did.) Indeed, a
good many concert artists put in less practice time than many
conservatory students. The quality of practice is far more important
than the quantity.
My totally uninformed guess (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that
most of those concert artists indeed DID put in the hours when they were
in the conservatory.
I see no reason to suppose that it would take as much time to maintain
repertoire as it does to go through training.
If you're aware of any concert artists whose names we might recognize
who've reached their level of virtuosity by maintaining perhaps only an
hour or so of playing throughout their training, I'd love to hear about it.
Post by a***@yahoo.com
A final thought. Students often try to cut corners on how they go about
learning the guitar. If asked why they do this, they might reply that
it's ridiculous for them to approach practice in the same exacting way
that a concert artist would. But think about this for a moment. If one
could cut corners and get good results, wouldn't concert artists be the
first to jump on that band wagon? The best concert artists can be
considered experts on how to get the best results in the least amount
of time. If they wasted time in unrewarding practice, they wouldn't be
concert-level players.
One might object that concert artists are by definition more talented
than the rest of us. I would reply that if one is less talented, then
one should be more exacting in his or her practice--not less. In other
words, what a talented player might achieve innately, the rest of us
must achieve through good and disciplined practice.
Exactly. The challenge is being motivated and stimulated enough to
carry on in an avocation like this without it becoming like work.

Steve
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I hope you'll re-think your decision to learn the classical guitar
through videos. At best, videos are only a supplement to good
instruction. Those who've advised you to find a good teacher are
speaking from long and hard-earned experience.
Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Lucy
2005-10-17 18:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Tom - I am a well taugh acoustic guitar player and speak to you from
hard earned experience. I am doing some new things and working with a
classical guitar. I don't need any advice on a teacher or to rethink
and I am not going to travel 40 miles even once a month. I was asking
for information from people who know about some of the dvds, etc. not
about whether I should use one or not. Many people learn in different
ways and I let you know I have no disrespect for your long and hard
experience at the classical guitar.I am playing as a hobby right now
and may even do some publicly if I feel competent enough. I just posted
to get some good info on what dvd's were out there because there are
many to pick from. I am not a youngster and there are many things I
have learned in life without someone teaching me. I think I explained
it's not my intent to discredit anyone who goes to lessons and plays
well. I appreciate your desire to help - but it's beyond what I need.

Lucy
Larry Deack
2005-10-17 19:39:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
I don't need any advice on a teacher or to rethink
and I am not going to travel 40 miles even once a month.
Hi Lucy,

It's possible for you to learn a lot about CG without a teacher,
especially since you have a background in guitar playing and the hard
work it takes to learn to play music. The videos are getting better all
the time but even back when Fred Noad was the only CG video I'd seen it
was still a good way to learn about CG. His series is broadcast on PBS
every once in a while.

I think a good lesson is worth 40 miles even if you only do it once.
Many fine teachers will give you lessons one a year if that's all you
want but that can still be worth your time and money. I'd easily travel
that far just to sit in a room with a good player who will play some
music and talk a bit about each piece. I love the experience of live
music so I will go a long way just to get that experience with good
musicians even if they are not good teachers.

Enjoy your journey and good luck.
Lucy
2005-10-17 23:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Larry,
I will keep an eye out for the PBS series. I too love the experience
of live music and hope that there are some times I can get together
with others who play classical guitar. I am part of a group that plays
guitars every Sat. and I love that time. I had a wonderful musician
help me pick out a guitar and give me some pointers to get started.
Have looked up a number of the resouces that people posted and I
think there are several that can help me out. I would imagine there are
others out there that may not be able to participate in lessons but
appreciate the recommendations on materials that people find helpful.
Guess I may just have to be that person who doesn't do everything in
the exact correct manner but has a good time anyway. Again, I am
exporing new things - it's that stage in life. I can't imagine having
anything but fun with any type of guitar - lessons or not - I love all
music.

Lucy
Larry Deack
2005-10-18 00:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
Guess I may just have to be that person who doesn't do everything in
the exact correct manner but has a good time anyway.
I hear you on that one.

I'm not thrilled with the word "correct" because I see so many
approaches that seem to work well for people who all say they play some
"classical" guitar. The web has lots to offer anybody who looks, as you
seem to be doing.

I am a fan of wikipedia and the open source collaborations and hope
that one day there will be good interactive CG educational material
available that uses the same model. It's spotty now but there is some
good free stuff out there including some nice videos and sound files.
I'm working on some projects with others that we hope will work along
these lines. There is a lot of video out there that few people have seen
that we hope to post on a web site for free.

I set up the OCGC web site (www.ogcg.org) and Dr. Gutman maintains it.
We are planing on posting some pictures and articles from our archives
in the near future. I have manged to get some of the teachers in So.
Cal. talking about more material that we can make available for students
so I hope that as time goes on we can provide more quality educational
media for people like you and any student who is motivated to learn
whether they have a teacher or not.

Have fun and enjoy the hard work and the results, it's worth it.
Faustus
2005-10-18 00:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of the OCGC, I was playing at the circle in Orange one day and
some guy told me I should come the OC guitar circle. I'll check it out.
Larry Deack
2005-10-18 00:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faustus
Speaking of the OCGC, I was playing at the circle in Orange one day and
some guy told me I should come the OC guitar circle. I'll check it out.
Please do. I am the current president of the organization but I
wouldn't hold that against them :-) Be sure to say hello when you attend
a concert if I'm there (I'm at most of the concert but not all).

If you teach and/or perform you may want to add your name to the list
of teachers in the county by contacting George Gutman. Most of the
classical guitarists in Orange County have played on OCGC programs at
one time or another.

One of the older guys on the program last Saturday night was telling
me how he played on an OCGC program with Laurindo Almeida in the early
70's. He is a really fine flamenco player who I had never heard until
that night.
Kent Murdick
2005-10-17 20:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
I am not going to travel 40 miles even once a month. I was asking
for information from people who know about some of the dvds, etc. not
I assume that you have listened to several fine claissical guitarists
and that this is the direction you want to go. Here's a simulation you
can do. . Take a quarter out of you pocket and toss it five times. The
chances of you ever getting to the place you want to be without a good
teacher are probably less than the chances of getting either five heads
or five tails in these five tosses. Not only that, but you will have
spent thousands of hours not getting anywhere. I'm sure you believe
your time is worth something.
Scott Daughtrey
2005-10-18 02:49:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
Post by Lucy
I am not going to travel 40 miles even once a month. I was asking
for information from people who know about some of the dvds, etc. not
I assume that you have listened to several fine claissical guitarists
and that this is the direction you want to go.
How absurd. Typical Kent of course.

"I assume"...

Funny, I made no such assumption as I have no idea what Lucy's ultimate goals
are and, frankly, neither do you.
Kent Murdick
2005-10-17 20:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
I am not going to travel 40 miles even once a month. I was asking
for information from people who know about some of the dvds, etc. not
I assume that you have listened to several fine claissical guitarists
and that this is the direction you want to go. Here's a simulation you
can do. . Take a quarter out of you pocket and toss it five times. The
chances of you ever getting to the place you want to be without a good
teacher are probably less than the chances of getting either five heads
or five tails in these five tosses. Not only that, but you will have
spent thousands of hours not getting anywhere. I'm sure you believe
your time is worth something.
Shawn Wallis
2005-10-17 21:05:34 UTC
Permalink
TESTING -- sorry for the inconvience
Post by Lucy
Post by Lucy
I am not going to travel 40 miles even once a month. I was asking
for information from people who know about some of the dvds, etc. not
I assume that you have listened to several fine claissical guitarists
and that this is the direction you want to go. Here's a simulation you
can do. . Take a quarter out of you pocket and toss it five times. The
chances of you ever getting to the place you want to be without a good
teacher are probably less than the chances of getting either five heads
or five tails in these five tosses. Not only that, but you will have
spent thousands of hours not getting anywhere. I'm sure you believe
your time is worth something.
dsi1
2005-10-18 02:14:23 UTC
Permalink
Kent Murdick wrote:
`
Post by Kent Murdick
I assume that you have listened to several fine claissical guitarists
and that this is the direction you want to go. Here's a simulation you
can do. . Take a quarter out of you pocket and toss it five times. The
chances of you ever getting to the place you want to be without a good
teacher are probably less than the chances of getting either five heads
or five tails in these five tosses. Not only that, but you will have
spent thousands of hours not getting anywhere. I'm sure you believe
your time is worth something.
My research shows that the odds of becoming pretty good on the guitar
are more like getting 4 heads in a row. These odds remain almost the
same with or without a teacher. Strange ain't it? You would probably not
be able to earn a living as a guitarist at this level, for that you'd
need to throw about 4 more heads. Becoming a guitar god is more like
tossing 16 heads in a row. Jeff Beck would be a 18 head guitarist.

If you play the guitar strictly for pleasure, and you're of of those
types that like to do things your way, you might not want to give up the
freedom to pursue the path of your choice that your teacher will
probably require. If you're one of those chaps focused on the goal of
being a good guitarist or if it's going to be your profession and you
need some training for the job, there's a good chance you'll be
motivated to listen very well to your teacher. Mostly I think, the
students don't really care much either way...

If I ever do find someone who has spent thousands of hours and not
learned a thing on the guitar, I'll be sure to refer him to you. I hope
you don't have an aversion to drool on your carpet. ;')


david
Kent Murdick
2005-10-18 03:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
If I ever do find someone who has spent thousands of hours and not
learned a thing on the guitar, I'll be sure to refer him to you. I hope
You don't have to look very far to find someone like this. I know many
people who have spent 30 years, and I assume thousands of hours, and
have not even come close to reaching their reachig their potentials.
dsi1
2005-10-18 04:45:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by dsi1
If I ever do find someone who has spent thousands of hours and not
learned a thing on the guitar, I'll be sure to refer him to you. I hope
You don't have to look very far to find someone like this. I know many
people who have spent 30 years, and I assume thousands of hours, and
have not even come close to reaching their reachig their potentials.
I can see your point, Kent, and I have no reason to doubt that this is
true, however, I like to think one is responsible for reaching whatever
goals they wish to and in the end, will get whatever they deserve.
Hopefully, they'll have no regrets with the decisions they've made, if
not, tough beans! Lucy sounds like a guitar player of some experience
who is over 15 years of age who knows what she wants. I think she's
qualified to decide her course. Why the heck would you want to teach
someone not ready for your guidance? That's plain nutty. OTOH, it may
make economic sense...

The only persons that I have a vested interest in reaching their
potentials are my kids, everyone else are pretty much on their own. I
guess I'm a mean guy, but it's all for the better to not interfere with
the life forms and their destiny on this alien planet.

Capt. Kirk
Mick Stranaham
2005-10-19 01:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Here's a simulation you
can do. . Take a quarter out of you pocket and toss it five times. The
chances of you ever getting to the place you want to be without a good
teacher are probably less
I tried to spank you over on the scooter group for using this type of
reasoning. "The chances [...] are probably less". What's the variance of
your estimator?
Kent Murdick
2005-10-19 15:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Sometimes you need to get rough idea of what you are dealing with in
order to improve the odds. How many of the "young lions of the guitar"
are there who have nver had good instruction? Probably none. Perhaps a
better estimate is zero.
Steve Perry
2005-10-19 16:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Sometimes you need to get rough idea of what you are dealing with in
order to improve the odds. How many of the "young lions of the guitar"
are there who have nver had good instruction? Probably none. Perhaps a
better estimate is zero.
And what, exactly, constitutes "good" instruction? By your lights, most
of the internationally-known and oft-recorded concert classical
guitarists have lousy technique -- all those fans have paid all that
money and been hornswoggled. If those players never learned how to do
it "right," then it would seem they did not get "good" instruction.

Or, for some reason that escapes me, they got "good" teaching, but
threw it away and began holding their wrists crooked and their fingers
a'splay.

Using Murdick logic, you would also seem to be saying that a student is
limited by the instruction s/he gets. If this is the case, then how is
it possible that any student can ever surpass his or her teacher?

Since this is apparently not true, then there must be something else
going on besides "good" teaching.

Are you saying that there are not and have never been any good
classical guitarists who are largely self-taught?
--
Steve
Kent Murdick
2005-10-19 16:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Perry
By your lights, most
of the internationally-known and oft-recorded concert classical>>

Obviously, you can't read. I am very impressed by the technical
accomplshments of just about every guitarist who makes it to the
concert stage. Also, I'm not saying that I'm right and that, say,
Richard Spross is is wrong in his approach - we leave that argument for
another time. What i'm say is this.

1) There is very little variation in the technical approach of the
great perfromers today and less and less all the time.

2) All the great players today have studied with one or more teachers
over an extended period of time.

To answer you other question, good instruction doesn't make you a great
player, Good instruction allows you to reach your potential or more
quickly reach your potential. It is possible to become a concert
performer without good instruction, but as a practical matter it never
happens.
Steve Perry
2005-10-19 20:24:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Obviously, you can't read.
Oh, I suspect I read better than you write. And my point stands, no
matter much smoke you blow at it: It is not absolutely necessary to
have a good teacher to learn how to play the classical guitar, and to
do so fairly well.

Will it be harder and take longer? Sure. Can it be done?

Absolutely

There's Giuliani, who apparently taught himself to play guitar. He
apparently was no slouch.

According to an article written by Scott Tennant on the USC LAGQ
website, "Andrès Segovia, Celedonio Romero and Julian Bream were
largely self-taught." and: "As a child, Segovia had studied cello and
piano, but he could not be swayed from his devotion to the lowly
guitar. No competent teacher being at hand, Segovia taught himself."

Bream studied with Segovia, as did Stephen Paul ("Esteban"), who did so
after much begging, but who had apparently taught himself to play well
enough to merit the chance.

Um, Mesut Özgen? He plays passably well ...
Post by Kent Murdick
1) There is very little variation in the technical approach of the
great perfromers today and less and less all the time.
That may be, but the question was simple, from a woman who had some
experience with music, a teacher, and the acoustic guitar, and it had
to do with DVDs.
--
Steve
Kent Murdick
2005-10-19 20:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Will it be harder and take longer? Sure. Can it be done? Absolutely >>>
Yea, and what about all those people who have won major money in the
lottery. There must be thousands of them - certainly too many to name.
Therefore, if someone wants to make a lot of money it wouldn't be
unreasonable for them to just play the lottery everyday. It's same
reasoning.
Steve Perry
2005-10-19 21:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Will it be harder and take longer? Sure. Can it be done? Absolutely >>>
Yea, and what about all those people who have won major money in the
lottery. There must be thousands of them - certainly too many to name.
Therefore, if someone wants to make a lot of money it wouldn't be
unreasonable for them to just play the lottery everyday. It's same
reasoning.
No, it isn't. You aren't reasoning at all.

Musical skills can be divined by somebody sufficiently motivated. You
can, with the aid of books and videos, teach yourself to read music, to
play scales, to learn where to put your fingers on a fretboard to make
a certain note sound, and how to pluck a string.

Autodidacts teach themselves all kinds of things all the time. Denying
that his occurs is foolish.

Playing the guitar is not brain surgery. To be a world-class player
certianly isn't easy, but to do it well enough to entertain yourself or
somebody else is possible without a hands-on certified teacher.

Chet Atkins and Tommy Emmanuel were self-taught. Chet could play
circles around most guitarists in any genre, and Tommy still can. Both
men have done classical pieces on guitar that can stand alongside
anybody else's versions, and they aren't even classical guitarists.

There are a whole bunch of people who cannot read a lick of standard
musical notation who became good enough at it to make not just a
living, but millions of dollars playing and singing songs they wrote.
Ever hear of The Beatles? None of them could read music and they did
all right.

This one-true-path crap is just that, crap. There is more than one way
up the mountain. Sure, some will get you there faster and easier, but
for you to deny that there is any way but your way is, in a word,
wrong.
--
Steve
rcspross
2005-10-20 05:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Perry
Post by Kent Murdick
Will it be harder and take longer? Sure. Can it be done? Absolutely >>>
Yea, and what about all those people who have won major money in the
lottery. There must be thousands of them - certainly too many to name.
Therefore, if someone wants to make a lot of money it wouldn't be
unreasonable for them to just play the lottery everyday. It's same
reasoning.
No, it isn't. You aren't reasoning at all.
Musical skills can be divined by somebody sufficiently motivated. You
can, with the aid of books and videos, teach yourself to read music, to
play scales, to learn where to put your fingers on a fretboard to make
a certain note sound, and how to pluck a string.
Autodidacts teach themselves all kinds of things all the time. Denying
that his occurs is foolish.
Playing the guitar is not brain surgery. To be a world-class player
certianly isn't easy, but to do it well enough to entertain yourself or
somebody else is possible without a hands-on certified teacher.
Chet Atkins and Tommy Emmanuel were self-taught. Chet could play
circles around most guitarists in any genre, and Tommy still can. Both
men have done classical pieces on guitar that can stand alongside
anybody else's versions, and they aren't even classical guitarists.
Reminds me of the old story about Chet saying, there isn't any money
above the fifth fret. :- )

Richard Spross
Post by Steve Perry
There are a whole bunch of people who cannot read a lick of standard
musical notation who became good enough at it to make not just a
living, but millions of dollars playing and singing songs they wrote.
Ever hear of The Beatles? None of them could read music and they did
all right.
This one-true-path crap is just that, crap. There is more than one way
up the mountain. Sure, some will get you there faster and easier, but
for you to deny that there is any way but your way is, in a word,
wrong.
--
Steve
Kent Murdick
2005-10-20 17:29:14 UTC
Permalink
there isn't any money above the fifth fret. :- ) >>>
There's a lot of truth to that. An intermediate student who played
cleanly, had the right repertoire and looked good in a tux could play
for a lifetime at high paying hotel gig.
Kent Murdick
2005-10-20 17:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Playing the guitar is not brain surgery.>>>
If only it were. I'm glad you made this statement because it goes to
heart of what has become my passion which is to make becoming a concert
performer as easy as becoming a brain surgeon.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2005-10-20 18:24:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Playing the guitar is not brain surgery.>>>
If only it were. I'm glad you made this statement because it goes to
heart of what has become my passion which is to make becoming a concert
performer as easy as becoming a brain surgeon.
I hope this is intended as hyperbole.

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Kent Murdick
2005-10-20 18:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
I hope this is intended as hyperbole.
Not at all. I could have been a brain surgeon and more with the effort
I put into the guitar. If one is reasonably intelligent, has the desire
and has good hand coordnation, then becoming a brain surgeon is
pretty much just a matter of putting in the hours. This is not true for
becoming a concert level guitarist.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2005-10-20 18:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
I hope this is intended as hyperbole.
Not at all. I could have been a brain surgeon and more with the effort
I put into the guitar. If one is reasonably intelligent, has the desire
and has good hand coordnation, then becoming a brain surgeon is
pretty much just a matter of putting in the hours. This is not true for
becoming a concert level guitarist.
I'm glad you're not my surgeon, if you think it's just cookbook.

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Howard
2005-10-20 18:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Please carefully explain how it is you know that

"If one is reasonably intelligent, has the desire and has good hand
coordnation, then becoming a brain surgeon is pretty much just a matter
of putting in the hours"

is true, but

"If one is reasonably intelligent, has the desire and has good hand
coordnation, then becoming a concert guitarist is pretty much just a
matter of putting in the hours" is false.

I'm surprised you know so much about the training of brain surgeons.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2005-10-20 19:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard
Please carefully explain how it is you know that
"If one is reasonably intelligent, has the desire and has good hand
coordnation, then becoming a brain surgeon is pretty much just a matter
of putting in the hours"
is true, but
"If one is reasonably intelligent, has the desire and has good hand
coordnation, then becoming a concert guitarist is pretty much just a
matter of putting in the hours" is false.
I'm surprised you know so much about the training of brain surgeons.
I can tell you as someone who has spent time in surgeries and operating
rooms watching surgeons that this is not something anyone can do. Not
even a reasonably smart person with good hand-eye coordination and
putting in the hours.
I can tell you that I think in all modesty that I am a highly skilled
operator. But I don't think I would ever have what it takes to be a
neurosurgeon.
I wouldn't expect a non-surgeon to see this as somewhat magical, but
there is art there--just as there is with a great concert guitarist.
But proclaiming that it is just essentially skilled grunt work is more
than wrong--it's ignorant. And I say that as someone who has rarely if
ever before said a harsh word about Kent.

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Steve Perry
2005-10-20 19:59:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
I can tell you as someone who has spent time in surgeries and operating
rooms watching surgeons that this is not something anyone can do. Not
even a reasonably smart person with good hand-eye coordination and
putting in the hours.
I can tell you that I think in all modesty that I am a highly skilled
operator. But I don't think I would ever have what it takes to be a
neurosurgeon.
I wouldn't expect a non-surgeon to see this as somewhat magical, but
there is art there--just as there is with a great concert guitarist.
But proclaiming that it is just essentially skilled grunt work is more
than wrong--it's ignorant. And I say that as someone who has rarely if
ever before said a harsh word about Kent.
Steve
Yep, having spent a few hours myself watching expert surgeons carve, I
also believe there is a fair amount of art in with the science. Kent's
rant is based on nothing save his desire to make his point.

There are, in his view, it seems, two classes of people who are
involved with teaching and playing the classical guitar: a) all those
fools, morons, and fuzzy-thinkers who are entirely wrong, and b) Kent.
--
Steve
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2005-10-20 20:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Perry
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
I can tell you as someone who has spent time in surgeries and operating
rooms watching surgeons that this is not something anyone can do. Not
even a reasonably smart person with good hand-eye coordination and
putting in the hours.
I can tell you that I think in all modesty that I am a highly skilled
operator. But I don't think I would ever have what it takes to be a
neurosurgeon.
I wouldn't expect a non-surgeon to see this as somewhat magical, but
there is art there--just as there is with a great concert guitarist.
But proclaiming that it is just essentially skilled grunt work is more
than wrong--it's ignorant. And I say that as someone who has rarely if
ever before said a harsh word about Kent.
Steve
Yep, having spent a few hours myself watching expert surgeons carve, I
also believe there is a fair amount of art in with the science. Kent's
rant is based on nothing save his desire to make his point.
There are, in his view, it seems, two classes of people who are
involved with teaching and playing the classical guitar: a) all those
fools, morons, and fuzzy-thinkers who are entirely wrong, and b) Kent.
Kent is hardly alone in that kind of self-assessment. Still, unless
Kent has some surgical experience I'm not aware of, he has no standing
to make a judgement about brain surgery.
He may well have made a good brain surgeon. But as they say here in
New York, that and $2...

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Scott Daughtrey
2005-10-21 04:03:52 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:01:17 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Howard
Please carefully explain how it is you know that
"If one is reasonably intelligent, has the desire and has good hand
coordnation, then becoming a brain surgeon is pretty much just a matter
of putting in the hours"
is true, but
"If one is reasonably intelligent, has the desire and has good hand
coordnation, then becoming a concert guitarist is pretty much just a
matter of putting in the hours" is false.
I'm surprised you know so much about the training of brain surgeons.
I can tell you as someone who has spent time in surgeries and operating
rooms watching surgeons that this is not something anyone can do. Not
even a reasonably smart person with good hand-eye coordination and
putting in the hours.
I can tell you that I think in all modesty that I am a highly skilled
operator. But I don't think I would ever have what it takes to be a
neurosurgeon.
I wouldn't expect a non-surgeon to see this as somewhat magical, but
there is art there--just as there is with a great concert guitarist.
But proclaiming that it is just essentially skilled grunt work is more
than wrong--it's ignorant. And I say that as someone who has rarely if
ever before said a harsh word about Kent.
Steve
Just starting to figure this out, Steve? ;-P

Scott
Steven Bornfeld
2005-10-21 16:01:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Daughtrey
Just starting to figure this out, Steve? ;-P
Scott
I understand that many may feel Kent's assertion that almost anyone
with intelligence and basic skills can become a brain surgeon seems less
absurd than his JW obsession. Perhaps my outburst was overdone.
I perceived it as my perhaps overtolerance of broad differences of
opinion relative to my intolerance of what I perceive as (willfully or
not) flouting issues of fact.

Steve
--
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}
Kent Murdick
2005-10-21 21:18:59 UTC
Permalink
Steve,

I think you are probably right in saying that I overstated the brain
surgeon thing. I think you could substiture in general surgeon and my
statement would hold closer to the truth.
Steven Bornfeld
2005-10-21 21:50:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Steve,
I think you are probably right in saying that I overstated the brain
surgeon thing. I think you could substiture in general surgeon and my
statement would hold closer to the truth.
I think it might be closer to say that a concert guitarist is elite in
his/her field. Certainly not all surgeons are stars either, but they're
out there.

Steve
--
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Arial;}}
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"nospam" to reply\par
}
Kent Murdick
2005-10-22 00:05:25 UTC
Permalink
I just got the Fredrick Hand's video today and watched it. What a pile
of crap. Left hand: fingertips perpendicular to the fingerboard with
the large joints hyper extended. And the bullshit goes on and on. No
wonder Fred never got anywhere as player. A great talent gone to shit.
I thought he sounded better when he was an undergraduate. I'll sell
this DVD for the first $10 Oh, BTW, I liked Fred's compositions.
John D. Rimmer
2005-10-22 00:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
I just got the Fredrick Hand's video today and watched it. What a pile
of crap. Left hand: fingertips perpendicular to the fingerboard with
the large joints hyper extended. And the bullshit goes on and on. No
wonder Fred never got anywhere as player. A great talent gone to shit.
I thought he sounded better when he was an undergraduate. I'll sell
this DVD for the first $10 Oh, BTW, I liked Fred's compositions.
I'm shocked! Kent, be aware that you may (now) be off his Christmas card
list, this year.

nhoJ
Faustus
2005-10-22 01:11:20 UTC
Permalink
I like Hand's DVDs. They've helped me. One of the best things about
them, aside from the pedagogy, is that he doesn't come off like a
pedantic ass. As for his playing, I think he sounds wonderful, but then
again I'm not an expert player so what do I know?
Mick Stranaham
2005-10-22 03:02:35 UTC
Permalink
No wonder Fred never got anywhere as player.
Did you get anywhere as a player? Where?
Faustus
2005-10-22 03:52:47 UTC
Permalink
According to this bio, I'd say Fred has gotten somewhere as a player:

http://www.purchase.edu/academics/music/faculty/hand/
dsi1
2005-10-22 11:04:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faustus
http://www.purchase.edu/academics/music/faculty/hand/
The bio by itself doesn't mean much in that most bios are meant to make
a person look pretty damn good. However, about 15 seconds of listening
to his playing renders any bitching about poor technique and improper
left hand position irrelevant. The music speaks volumes as to who is
more creditable. Just my opinion.

david
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2005-10-22 13:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faustus
http://www.purchase.edu/academics/music/faculty/hand/
Undoubtedly the name helped. Same with Peter Finger.
The surgeon Hak J. Kim wasn't so lucky.

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Faustus
2005-10-22 22:39:34 UTC
Permalink
hahaha....
dsi1
2005-10-23 01:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Faustus
http://www.purchase.edu/academics/music/faculty/hand/
Undoubtedly the name helped. Same with Peter Finger.
The surgeon Hak J. Kim wasn't so lucky.
Steve
I don't get the Kim joke but I'm pretty sure Mr. Murdick thinks the DVD
should be called "Hand Jive" Hehehe. Gosh!
Steven Bornfeld
2005-10-23 15:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
I don't get the Kim joke
A sugeon...named HAK?

Steve


but I'm pretty sure Mr. Murdick thinks the DVD
Post by dsi1
should be called "Hand Jive" Hehehe. Gosh!
--
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Steve Perry
2005-10-23 17:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by dsi1
I don't get the Kim joke
A sugeon...named HAK?
Steve
I used to collect doctors' names: Dr. Butcher, Dr. Blue. Dr. Hacker. My
favorite was a science fiction writer, Alan Nourse, whose last name is
actually pronounced "nurse." He was a medical doctor before he took up
writing.

Favorite all-time name, though, was not a doctor's, but just a
maybe-not-so-normal citizen whose parents evidently had a warped send
of humor -- man's name was "Delicious Peters."
--
Steve
e***@yahoo.com
2005-10-23 18:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Perry
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by dsi1
I don't get the Kim joke
A sugeon...named HAK?
Steve
I used to collect doctors' names: Dr. Butcher, Dr. Blue. Dr. Hacker. My
favorite was a science fiction writer, Alan Nourse, whose last name is
actually pronounced "nurse." He was a medical doctor before he took up
writing.
Favorite all-time name, though, was not a doctor's, but just a
maybe-not-so-normal citizen whose parents evidently had a warped send
of humor -- man's name was "Delicious Peters."
--
Steve
How about "De Otis Carolina"? Or Robin Quivers' fav (Howard Stern
Show) "Sy Phillis"?

Ed S.
Steven Bornfeld
2005-10-23 18:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Perry
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by dsi1
I don't get the Kim joke
A sugeon...named HAK?
Steve
I used to collect doctors' names: Dr. Butcher, Dr. Blue. Dr. Hacker. My
favorite was a science fiction writer, Alan Nourse, whose last name is
actually pronounced "nurse." He was a medical doctor before he took up
writing.
Favorite all-time name, though, was not a doctor's, but just a
maybe-not-so-normal citizen whose parents evidently had a warped send
of humor -- man's name was "Delicious Peters."
I think a lot of people collect names. I remember a pal who's a
retired NY middle school teacher tell me about a student of his--a bad
girl name Hhonda. They called her "the girl who sells herself".

Steve
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dsi1
2005-10-24 02:34:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by dsi1
I don't get the Kim joke
A sugeon...named HAK?
Steve
but I'm pretty sure Mr. Murdick thinks the DVD
Post by dsi1
should be called "Hand Jive" Hehehe. Gosh!
It's true, I am an idiot! I'm at a disadvantage as I would never
pronounce that Korean name as "Hack." Remember that movie where Sean
Penn says to Mr. Hand - "YOU DICK!" That was awesome...
Scott Daughtrey
2005-10-24 04:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by dsi1
I don't get the Kim joke
A sugeon...named HAK?
Steve
but I'm pretty sure Mr. Murdick thinks the DVD
Post by dsi1
should be called "Hand Jive" Hehehe. Gosh!
It's true, I am an idiot! I'm at a disadvantage as I would never
pronounce that Korean name as "Hack." Remember that movie where Sean
Penn says to Mr. Hand - "YOU DICK!" That was awesome...
Fast Times at Ridgemont High
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083929/

Scott

Kent Murdick
2005-10-23 16:45:28 UTC
Permalink
There is some good wisdom on the Hand DVD. Fred recognizes that if the
student is started off correctly, he will have a natually beautiful
tone a very fast right hand.almost immediately. Good tone and right
hand velocity are natural to most beginners and require bad instruction
(or self instruction, which is the same as bad instruction) for them to
be driven out.

He alludes to many things but never explains them. On several occasions
he demonstartes the flexion of the middle joint in conjunction with the
extension of the large joint as being bad, but he never descibes it in
those terms and therefore misses the whole point - the joints extend
together and they flex together. The idea of returning 'P' to the
string it just played every time is not a good idea either. One can
train P to do this but many studnets will aquire debilitating tension..
When P is not in use it shouldn't be held anywhere. Both the flexors
and extensors should be relaxed which will generally place P a quarter
of and inch away from or even touching the 'i' finger.
Kent Murdick
2005-10-22 12:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Did you get anywhere as a player? Where? >>>>
I supported myself for about 10 years playing the guitar, but I don't
claim to be a player. I'm a teacher and I have a minor international
reputation. I just signed a contract yesterday to allow Mel Bay to
publish my book "The Julio sagreras Recital Book".

Todd Tipton plays better than Hand and Todd has 30 years to go. Hand
makes many flubs on those relatively easy pieces and his playing is,
most of the time, ugly. That's not the worst part though. His
instrution is so imprecise as to be useless or just plain destructive.
The over extesnion of the first finger joint in the left hand is one of
the worst bad habit one can aquire. to actually demonstrate and teach
people to do this should be illegal. The rest of the instructional
section is just a bunch of unorganized ramblings.

To be fair, Hand has some qualities in his playing that are admirable.
He has large fingers and he does get a beautiful tone much of the time
but ever here he is inconsistant. His compostions are also quite nice.
He was an interesting composer even back in his undergrad days.
Interestingly enough, I notice that he doesn't give any credit to his
old teacher at Mannnes, Leonid Bolotine.
Cyber Troll
2005-10-23 13:15:27 UTC
Permalink
I have a minor international reputation.
Boy, do I know what that's like.
Scott Daughtrey
2005-10-18 02:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucy
Tom - I am a well taugh acoustic guitar player and speak to you from
hard earned experience. I am doing some new things and working with a
classical guitar. I don't need any advice on a teacher or to rethink
and I am not going to travel 40 miles even once a month. I was asking
for information from people who know about some of the dvds, etc. not
about whether I should use one or not. Many people learn in different
ways and I let you know I have no disrespect for your long and hard
experience at the classical guitar.I am playing as a hobby right now
and may even do some publicly if I feel competent enough. I just posted
to get some good info on what dvd's were out there because there are
many to pick from. I am not a youngster and there are many things I
have learned in life without someone teaching me. I think I explained
it's not my intent to discredit anyone who goes to lessons and plays
well. I appreciate your desire to help - but it's beyond what I need.
Lucy
Kudos to you, Lucy, for politely standing your ground. It never ceases to
amaze me at how many posters here resort to dogmatic responses when asked a
simple and specific question.

Scott
Kent Murdick
2005-10-19 16:03:20 UTC
Permalink
Hey, Lucy, if you believe these people, you just got screwed. There is
no democray of ideas out there. In order for the hands to work
efficiently, there is very little wiggle room. In this new age of
videos online, it doesn't take long to realize how narrow the
parameters for good technique actually are.
Larry Deack
2005-10-19 16:32:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Hey, Lucy, if you believe these people, you just got screwed. There is
no democray of ideas out there. In order for the hands to work
efficiently, there is very little wiggle room. In this new age of
videos online, it doesn't take long to realize how narrow the
parameters for good technique actually are.
Sometimes the narrow parameters are more about narrow thinking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosbury_flop

The sad part is how often we need to rethink our assumptions compared
to how many people assume the old ways are the only ways:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaled_Composites
Kent Murdick
2005-10-19 16:47:08 UTC
Permalink
Sometimes the narrow parameters are more about narrow thinking: >>>
Yep, sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. I'm always on the
lookout for new thngs but as the years go by the parameters get smaller
and smaller. John Dimmick (an old enemy of mine on RMCG) once lamented
this fact because he felt that everyone would end up sounding the same.
There is some truth to this. Maybe someone will come up with
something spectacular in the near future, but I can tell you that any
new approach won't include overly bent wrists or playing with the left
hand fingertips perpendicular to the fretboard.
Larry Deack
2005-10-19 17:38:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Yep, sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. I'm always on the
lookout for new thngs but as the years go by the parameters get smaller
and smaller.
It must have something to do with us getting older and older. I see
more and more possibilities as I grow older and I see how narrow most of
the older players are compared to the younger students who seem to not
need the security of following the one true path approach of the old
teachers.

BTW, it was fun to have my student come into his lesson yesterday
asking when he could play again for the OCGC after his success last
Saturday night. Now that is just about all that matters as far as I can
tell.

YMMV
rcspross
2005-10-19 21:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Sometimes the narrow parameters are more about narrow thinking: >>>
Yep, sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. I'm always on the
lookout for new thngs but as the years go by the parameters get smaller
and smaller. John Dimmick (an old enemy of mine on RMCG) once lamented
this fact because he felt that everyone would end up sounding the same.
I would wish that there was a consensus about aesthetic sound as a
starting point
for the concept of artistic, just as there is with the bowed string
instruments.

From that consensus, there then appear virtuosos who then carry on the art

to higher degrees.
Post by Kent Murdick
There is some truth to this. Maybe someone will come up with
something spectacular in the near future, but I can tell you that any
new approach won't include overly bent wrists or playing with the left
hand fingertips perpendicular to the fretboard.
Sounds dreadfully painful.
Reminds me of the picture in Noad's beginning method of the young
woman with her head bent over at the neck half way trying to see her
fingers, because the face of the guitar had to be vertical ( sic ). I
wonder
how long she lasted?

Richard Spross
Faustus
2005-10-17 07:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Lucy, these DVDs are excellent:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001WANWM/qid=1129530539/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-9648018-2275305?v=glance&s=dvd

and

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001WANWC/qid=1129530539/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9648018-2275305?v=glance&s=dvd
Kent Murdick
2005-10-17 10:34:05 UTC
Permalink
I just ordered the Hand book at your suggestion. Fred Hand, BTW, is
the probably only good player that Leonid Bolotine ever produced. I
saw him play as an undergraduate and was quite impressed. His
technique, like all of Bolotine's students, was pretty screwed up but
he played well. It will be interesting to hear what he says. I'll do a
review on RMCG.
arby
2005-10-18 04:00:26 UTC
Permalink
I also like the frederic hand dvds. There is a good price on them here:
http://www.dvdpacific.com/search.asp?title=classical+guitar&imageField.x=0&imageField.y=0
Faustus
2005-10-18 06:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Incidentally, the "Seven Easy Pieces" DVD would more accurately be
titled "Seven Relatively Easy Pieces," as Hand himself says in the DVD.
They would cause an absolute beginner to pull his hair out.
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