Discussion:
Bach's Cello Suites
(too old to reply)
Dick Muldoon
2007-10-07 11:32:07 UTC
Permalink
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.

Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Richard Yates
2007-10-07 13:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Yes. Most.
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
John Nguyen
2007-10-07 14:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
For any literature, it is best to be read in its native langague. Does
that mean one should not translate Shakespeare's or Voltaire's into
Vietnamese?
Cheers,

John
Raptor
2007-10-07 15:08:22 UTC
Permalink
A man once wrote, "He who translates, lies" which of course is just
another way of saying, perhaps with some hyperbole, that a tranlation
always involves loss. But transcriptions are perhaps another matter.
Everyone reading this blog knows a great deal of baroque instrumental
literature was fungible - if I may stretch the meaning of that term.
Bach is only one of many whose work appears across woodwinds, keyboard
and strings.

I think what's being commented upon here is less a criticism of the
guitar's limitations than an expression of admiration for the lovely
richness of the cello, which I'll confess is one of my favorite
instruments. Tashi doesn't agree with me, but I don't think Bach's
cello suites usuallly sound as good on the guitar as they do upon
their native instrument. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy hearing
them played on the guitar. I do. A whole lot. The suites'
fundamental beauty translates well between instruments. But the
dynamic range and sensitivity which the cello possesses exceeds even
the most wondrously crafted guitar. At the same time, I'd prefer to
hear Stanley's recording of the first 3 Bach cello suites than Yo Yo
Ma's. Yo Yo gets in the way, in my opinion. The benchmark - I'd say
Pablo Casals' recording (which is available in a CD-set). There we
have as they say, a musical landmark. Sublime.

mark
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-07 16:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
For any literature, it is best to be read in its native langague. Does
that mean one should not translate Shakespeare's or Voltaire's into
Vietnamese?
Cheers,
John
The Vietnamese can be one of the most difficult ...even for the
Vietnamese. After all, John, who wants their Pho made and served by a
round eye in Kansas? :-) It doesn't mean they shouldn't make it but
there ought to be a law against it! :-)

Btw, I do know why ducks sleep standing on only one leg. :-)

Che'
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-07 16:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Btw, I do know why ducks sleep standing on only one leg. :-)
Why Ducks Sleep Standing on One Leg

Many people must have wondered why ducks are accustomed to sleep in
the funny way they do - with one leg lifted. The Vietnamese have an
interesting explanation for this.

After Heaven had completed the creation of the world, there were four
ducks who found that they only had one leg each. It was difficult for
them to walk, and sometimes they were unable to find enough food. They
became very morose when they saw how easily other fowls and animals
moved about on two legs.

One day the four unfortunate ducks held a meeting and discussed their
ignoble condition. They had arrived at a point where life on one leg
could no longer be endured, so they decided to lodge a complaint to
Heaven. But they were entirely ignorant of Heaven's location, and they
did not even know how to draft a petition.

One of them suggested that they should turn to the rooster for help.
The others protested that his penmanship was so bad that no one in
Heaven would be able to read the petition. But there was no one else
to whom they could turn, so after having quacked and grumbled for some
time, the four of them went to find the rooster, who was only too
eager to help and readily scratched out the desired petition.

The ducks read the petition and then held another meeting to decide
which one of them should carry it. They way to Heaven was long and
tedious and beset with many pitfalls, so that none of the one-legged
ducks was enthusiastic about undertaking the journey.

The rooster, who was standing some distance away, overheard the lively
discussion. He coughed discreetly, and approaching the group,
delicately asked whether he might be of further service. They were
very pleased and accepted his offer to help.

"Not far from here there is a temple," he suggested, looking wisely
down his beak "and it happens that I am acquainted with the god of the
place. He could convey your petition to Heaven, and I can give you a
letter of introduction to him."

The ducks were loudly grateful whereupon the rooster put on his
spectacles and wrote out a suitably worded letter for them.

The ducks then proceeded to the temple, and as they entered its
precincts, they suddenly heard a loud, imperious voice wanting to know
why the temple's incense burner had eight legs instead of four. The
voice continued by demanding that the four extra legs be removed
immediately.

As the ducks heard this, their hope rose. They did not know what an
incense burner was, but they understood that four of its legs were to
be removed immediately. They hurried into the temple. The god was
still frowning at the incense burner when they entered, and he looked
at them unsmilingly.

"Your lordship," said one duck, who had become the spokesman for the
group, "here is a letter for you from our friend and neighbor, the
rooster and also our petition.l It's about our need of four legs; as
you see we have only one leg each."

The replied that what had been given them at creation was final, and
that their petition would serve no purpose. At these words the four
ducks fell silent. But then one, younger than the others and more
desperate, spoke up and said what was on the minds of all four.

"Your lordship," he stammered, "you spoke just now of removing four
legs from the incense burner..."

The god looked at him wide-eyed for an instant and then burst into
uncontrollable laughter. In the end he agreed to give hte ducks the
four extra legs.

"but mind you," he said, hading them over to the ducks and winking at
the incense burner, "these legs are made of pure gold and are very
precious; guard them carefully."

The ducks were ready to promise anything. they took their legs with
indescribable joy. They bowed and thanked the god. They attached the
extra legs to their bodies and soon they were able to move about like
their fellow creatures. But at night when they went to sleep, they
would pull up the leg given them by the temple god so that no one
could steal it. Other ducks, seeing this, assumed it was the proper
way to sleep and in imitation began to lift one leg before retiriung
for the night. And so the custom has remained to this day.

http://singlegirlwithcat.vox.com/library/posts/tags/ducks/
John Nguyen
2007-10-07 17:43:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by John Nguyen
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
For any literature, it is best to be read in its native langague. Does
that mean one should not translate Shakespeare's or Voltaire's into
Vietnamese?
Cheers,
John
The Vietnamese can be one of the most difficult ...even for the
Vietnamese. After all, John, who wants their Pho made and served by a
round eye in Kansas? :-) It doesn't mean they shouldn't make it but
there ought to be a law against it! :-)
Btw, I do know why ducks sleep standing on only one leg. :-)
Che'-
I hear ya. But one has to make due with what he got, desn't he? When I
came here, scallion was hard to come by, and you know it's not the
same to cook peppered fish stew without green scallion. So leek was my
subs back them, and with a little of imagination added, it came darn
close. Would I choose leek over scallion now? Not until a snowball
fight in hell!

I agree with you about Pho, though. It's gonna be tough to make the
right broth for it!

Re: duck sleep standing on one leg, Andrew Schumlman put it succintly.

Question for you: Why do male dogs lift hind leg while pissing?

Cheers,

John
Raptor
2007-10-07 17:56:21 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 7, 11:43 am, John Nguyen <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

Question for you: Why do male dogs lift hind leg while pissing?

If you're going to mark territory, it would seem evolution has favored
the genes in dogs which adopt a pissing stance most likely to put
their scent as near the nose height of other dogs as possible. But I
find the posing of this question immediately after a discussion of
Pho, deeply disturbing.

mark
John Nguyen
2007-10-07 18:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Question for you: Why do male dogs lift hind leg while pissing?
If you're going to mark territory, it would seem evolution has favored
the genes in dogs which adopt a pissing stance most likely to put
their scent as near the nose height of other dogs as possible. But I
find the posing of this question immediately after a discussion of
Pho, deeply disturbing.
mark
No, no. You got the wrong sequence. It's Pho, ducks, then dogs.

Re: male dogs, one of the hind legs was made with paper because it was
Frday afternoon in the creation time when they ran out of clay for one
of hind legs. So male dogs were told to be careful not to wet that leg
while pissing. I need to dig that story out.
Cheers,

John
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-07 18:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Re: male dogs, one of the hind legs was made with paper because it was
Frday afternoon in the creation time when they ran out of clay for one
of hind legs. So male dogs were told to be careful not to wet that leg
while pissing. I need to dig that story out.
Cheers,
My male yellow lab will find this to be very interesting, the female,
as usual, will not care.

Andrew
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-07 18:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Question for you: Why do male dogs lift hind leg while pissing?
If you're going to mark territory, it would seem evolution has favored
the genes in dogs which adopt a pissing stance most likely to put
their scent as near the nose height of other dogs as possible. But I
find the posing of this question immediately after a discussion of
Pho, deeply disturbing.
mark
Deeply distrubing is right!

Once, while living with a woman in a real house with a backyard, I
planted a little garden. I had a lot of celantro and culantro. I
noticed a local dog always made a pit-stop on my celantro. I bought a
sling-shot and busted his a$$. He wouldn't even come in the yard
after that.

Che'
Tashi
2007-10-07 23:31:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by John Nguyen
Question for you: Why do male dogs lift hind leg while pissing?
If you're going to mark territory, it would seem evolution has favored
the genes in dogs which adopt a pissing stance most likely to put
their scent as near the nose height of other dogs as possible. But I
find the posing of this question immediately after a discussion of
Pho, deeply disturbing.
mark
Deeply distrubing is right!
Once, while living with a woman in a real house with a backyard, I
planted a little garden. I had a lot of celantro and culantro. I
noticed a local dog always made a pit-stop on my celantro. I bought a
sling-shot and busted his a$$. He wouldn't even come in the yard
after that.
Che'
Man, I go out of town for the day come back anxoius to read everyones
thoughts on Bach cello suites and it has gone to the dogs!
MT
Jez
2007-10-07 18:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by John Nguyen
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
For any literature, it is best to be read in its native langague. Does
that mean one should not translate Shakespeare's or Voltaire's into
Vietnamese?
Cheers,
John
The Vietnamese can be one of the most difficult ...even for the
Vietnamese. After all, John, who wants their Pho made and served by a
round eye in Kansas? :-) It doesn't mean they shouldn't make it but
there ought to be a law against it! :-)
Btw, I do know why ducks sleep standing on only one leg. :-)
Che'-
I hear ya. But one has to make due with what he got, desn't he? When I
came here, scallion was hard to come by, and you know it's not the
same to cook peppered fish stew without green scallion. So leek was my
subs back them, and with a little of imagination added, it came darn
close. Would I choose leek over scallion now? Not until a snowball
fight in hell!
I agree with you about Pho, though. It's gonna be tough to make the
right broth for it!
Re: duck sleep standing on one leg, Andrew Schumlman put it succintly.
Question for you: Why do male dogs lift hind leg while pissing?
So they don't piss on their boots.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.", Albert Einstein
Steven Bornfeld
2007-10-07 15:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
I'm sure there is. But I think Sollscher and Yates (not to mention
Nigel North on lute) speak to me in different ways. I have heard the
recordings of Casals and Lynn Harrell, and recently acquired Janos
Starker (which I haven't yet listened to). They all have their strong
points.

Steve
Carlos Barrientos
2007-10-07 21:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old
vinyl) and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as
Sollscher's playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid,
and how utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
I'm sure there is. But I think Sollscher and Yates (not to mention
Nigel North on lute) speak to me in different ways. I have heard the
recordings of Casals and Lynn Harrell, and recently acquired Janos
Starker (which I haven't yet listened to). They all have their strong
points.
Steve
Fournier has his charms as well...
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
Steven Bornfeld
2007-10-08 16:57:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos Barrientos
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old
vinyl) and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as
Sollscher's playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid,
and how utterly appropriate the cello performances are. Is there
some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
I'm sure there is. But I think Sollscher and Yates (not to
mention Nigel North on lute) speak to me in different ways. I have
heard the recordings of Casals and Lynn Harrell, and recently acquired
Janos Starker (which I haven't yet listened to). They all have their
strong points.
Steve
Fournier has his charms as well...
So I've heard. The list is long.

Steve
Raptor
2007-10-07 15:14:36 UTC
Permalink
A man once wrote, "He who translates, lies" which of course is just
another way of saying, perhaps with some hyperbole, that a translation
always involves loss. But transcriptions are perhaps another
matter. Everyone reading this blog knows a great deal of baroque
instrumental literature was fungible - if I may stretch the meaning of
that term. Bach is only one of many whose work appears across
woodwinds, keyboard and strings.

I think what's being commented upon here is less a criticism of the
guitar's limitations than an expression of admiration for the lovely
richness of the cello, which I'll confess is one of my favorite
instruments. Tashi doesn't agree with me, but I don't think Bach's
cello suites usuallly sound as good on the guitar as they do upon
their native instrument. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy hearing
them played on the guitar. I do. A whole lot. The suites'
fundamental beauty translates well between instruments. But the
dynamic range and sensitivity which the cello possesses exceeds even
the most wondrously crafted guitar. At the same time, I'd prefer to
hear Stanley's recording of the first 3 Bach cello suites than Yo Yo
Ma's. Yo Yo gets in the way, in my opinion. The benchmark - I'd say
Pablo Casals' recording (which is available in a CD-set). There we
have a musical landmark. Sublime.

If you like cello music, there's a young artist hanging around El Paso
named Zuill Bailey who has a few recordings out now. I'm not wild
about his Bach, but he does some really neat stuff with Beethoven's
cello sonatas accompanied by Simone Dinnerstein.

mark
Tashi
2007-10-07 15:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
A man once wrote, "He who translates, lies" which of course is just
another way of saying, perhaps with some hyperbole, that a translation
always involves loss. But transcriptions are perhaps another
matter. Everyone reading this blog knows a great deal of baroque
instrumental literature was fungible - if I may stretch the meaning of
that term. Bach is only one of many whose work appears across
woodwinds, keyboard and strings.
I think what's being commented upon here is less a criticism of the
guitar's limitations than an expression of admiration for the lovely
richness of the cello, which I'll confess is one of my favorite
instruments. Tashi doesn't agree with me, but I don't think Bach's
cello suites usuallly sound as good on the guitar as they do upon
their native instrument. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy hearing
them played on the guitar. I do. A whole lot. The suites'
fundamental beauty translates well between instruments. But the
dynamic range and sensitivity which the cello possesses exceeds even
the most wondrously crafted guitar. At the same time, I'd prefer to
hear Stanley's recording of the first 3 Bach cello suites than Yo Yo
Ma's. Yo Yo gets in the way, in my opinion. The benchmark - I'd say
Pablo Casals' recording (which is available in a CD-set). There we
have a musical landmark. Sublime.
If you like cello music, there's a young artist hanging around El Paso
named Zuill Bailey who has a few recordings out now. I'm not wild
about his Bach, but he does some really neat stuff with Beethoven's
cello sonatas accompanied by Simone Dinnerstein.
mark
Raptor I go back and forth between cello, guitar, Lute, 11 string alto
guitar of Goran. Everything is impermanent, even tastes in music.

I'm actually memorizing the 1st cello suite ( Yates editions) on 6
string. While I could have just as easily played it on my Dresden I
felt there was no real advantage to having all those diapasons, and
I'm digging the simplicity of the 6 string right now.

That being said, if I played the 5th cello suite I would play it on
13 strings, and it would sound gorgeous.

While the cello has an advantage over the guitar in terms of volume
and sustain. The guitar can better realize the polyphony Bach
intended. Sometimes to my ear the constant broken cords of the cello
get on my nerves! The guitar in this regard has a better rhythmic
definition than the cello.

" Too much of anything is too much for me". Pete Townsend

MT
Raptor
2007-10-07 15:49:19 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 7, 9:43 am, Tashi <***@starband.net> wrote:

The guitar can better realize the polyphony Bach intended.

I think that's a very valid point and I was thinking something along
the same line while listening to Barrueco's recording of the Partita
No. 2 (BWV 1004); particularly the Chaconne mvmt. Obviously not
written for the guitar, I believe it sounds much better on the
instrument. It just "works" better.

mark
ktaylor
2007-10-07 16:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
A man once wrote, "He who translates, lies" which of course is just
another way of saying, perhaps with some hyperbole, that a translation
always involves loss. But transcriptions are perhaps another
matter. Everyone reading this blog knows a great deal of baroque
instrumental literature was fungible - if I may stretch the meaning of
that term. Bach is only one of many whose work appears across
woodwinds, keyboard and strings.
I think what's being commented upon here is less a criticism of the
guitar's limitations than an expression of admiration for the lovely
richness of the cello, which I'll confess is one of my favorite
instruments. Tashi doesn't agree with me, but I don't think Bach's
cello suites usuallly sound as good on the guitar as they do upon
their native instrument. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy hearing
them played on the guitar. I do. A whole lot. The suites'
fundamental beauty translates well between instruments. But the
dynamic range and sensitivity which the cello possesses exceeds even
the most wondrously crafted guitar. At the same time, I'd prefer to
hear Stanley's recording of the first 3 Bach cello suites than Yo Yo
Ma's. Yo Yo gets in the way, in my opinion. The benchmark - I'd say
Pablo Casals' recording (which is available in a CD-set). There we
have a musical landmark. Sublime.
If you like cello music, there's a young artist hanging around El Paso
named Zuill Bailey who has a few recordings out now. I'm not wild
about his Bach, but he does some really neat stuff with Beethoven's
cello sonatas accompanied by Simone Dinnerstein.
mark
Here's a Sunday-morning-sitting-on-my-back-porch-with-my-morning-
coffee thought:

Another way to consider this issue is through using a brain processing
paradigm.

Timbre is processed in a different part of the brain than pitch and
harmonic meaning and affects the limbic system more. The lymbic system
is the seat of raw emotion. The cello's timbre is "richer" than the
guitar and thus the total cogitive balance we receive from listening
to it will necessarily have a different emotional/cognitive experience
than listening to the same music on another instrument.

Some say this is the weakness of transcription - that the listening
experience is different. But why can not the "reprocessing" of the
musical material through a different "brain culture" be thought of as
the strength of transcription? In that way the music, detached from
its mother tongue, can be perceived as pure form and the timbric
elements of emotion become secondary to the melodic and harmonic
elements.

Kevin Taylor
Larry Deack
2007-10-07 16:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ktaylor
Here's a Sunday-morning-sitting-on-my-back-porch-with-my-morning-
Another way to consider this issue is through using a brain processing
paradigm.
Timbre is processed in a different part of the brain than pitch and
harmonic meaning and affects the limbic system more. The lymbic system
is the seat of raw emotion. The cello's timbre is "richer" than the
guitar and thus the total cogitive balance we receive from listening
to it will necessarily have a different emotional/cognitive experience
than listening to the same music on another instrument.
Some say this is the weakness of transcription - that the listening
experience is different. But why can not the "reprocessing" of the
musical material through a different "brain culture" be thought of as
the strength of transcription? In that way the music, detached from
its mother tongue, can be perceived as pure form and the timbric
elements of emotion become secondary to the melodic and harmonic
elements.
Kevin Taylor
Uh Kevin, what's in that coffee? :-)

Reminds me I need to get that book by David Huron "Sweet Anticipation:
Music and the Psychology of Expectation"
Raptor
2007-10-07 16:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by ktaylor
Post by Raptor
A man once wrote, "He who translates, lies" which of course is just
another way of saying, perhaps with some hyperbole, that a translation
always involves loss. But transcriptions are perhaps another
matter. Everyone reading this blog knows a great deal of baroque
instrumental literature was fungible - if I may stretch the meaning of
that term. Bach is only one of many whose work appears across
woodwinds, keyboard and strings.
I think what's being commented upon here is less a criticism of the
guitar's limitations than an expression of admiration for the lovely
richness of the cello, which I'll confess is one of my favorite
instruments. Tashi doesn't agree with me, but I don't think Bach's
cello suites usuallly sound as good on the guitar as they do upon
their native instrument. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy hearing
them played on the guitar. I do. A whole lot. The suites'
fundamental beauty translates well between instruments. But the
dynamic range and sensitivity which the cello possesses exceeds even
the most wondrously crafted guitar. At the same time, I'd prefer to
hear Stanley's recording of the first 3 Bach cello suites than Yo Yo
Ma's. Yo Yo gets in the way, in my opinion. The benchmark - I'd say
Pablo Casals' recording (which is available in a CD-set). There we
have a musical landmark. Sublime.
If you like cello music, there's a young artist hanging around El Paso
named Zuill Bailey who has a few recordings out now. I'm not wild
about his Bach, but he does some really neat stuff with Beethoven's
cello sonatas accompanied by Simone Dinnerstein.
mark
Here's a Sunday-morning-sitting-on-my-back-porch-with-my-morning-
Another way to consider this issue is through using a brain processing
paradigm.
Timbre is processed in a different part of the brain than pitch and
harmonic meaning and affects the limbic system more. The lymbic system
is the seat of raw emotion. The cello's timbre is "richer" than the
guitar and thus the total cogitive balance we receive from listening
to it will necessarily have a different emotional/cognitive experience
than listening to the same music on another instrument.
Some say this is the weakness of transcription - that the listening
experience is different. But why can not the "reprocessing" of the
musical material through a different "brain culture" be thought of as
the strength of transcription? In that way the music, detached from
its mother tongue, can be perceived as pure form and the timbric
elements of emotion become secondary to the melodic and harmonic
elements.
Kevin Taylor- Hide quoted text -
I dd not know any of that, Kevin. Fascinating.

mark
m***@gmail.com
2007-10-07 16:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
A man once wrote, "He who translates, lies"
Another man said, I forget who,:

"Time mutes, the translator mutilates".

MO.
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-07 16:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are. <
I recall as a child watching Casals playing those Bach suites. I was
transfixed with Casals, the cello and Bach. Later, when I heard them
on guitar I was very disappointed. Gone was the rich emotive voice
of consummate authority ....did I forget profound. At one time in my
studies I listened to various artist play these suites on the cello
every morning just as the sun was coming up over the beach where I was
living before I began my daily scales. When it came time for me to
play them I did them just to get them out of the way so I could get
back to music more to my taste with the guitar. Of course that is
just my taste an interpretations:



On the other hand....it's very interesting to learn how to imitate the
voice of the cello on the guitar's 4th. and 5th. strings.
Post by Dick Muldoon
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Of course, lots of it, and there are musics we can take away from
their rightful owners! :-)

Che'
Tashi
2007-10-07 16:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are. <
I recall as a child watching Casals playing those Bach suites. I was
transfixed with Casals, the cello and Bach. Later, when I heard them
on guitar I was very disappointed. Gone was the rich emotive voice
of consummate authority ....did I forget profound. At one time in my
studies I listened to various artist play these suites on the cello
every morning just as the sun was coming up over the beach where I was
living before I began my daily scales. When it came time for me to
play them I did them just to get them out of the way so I could get
back to music more to my taste with the guitar. Of course that is
just my taste an http://youtu.be/9u6yXNYaHcg http://youtu.be/ufVV1H5pkA8
On the other hand....it's very interesting to learn how to imitate the
voice of the cello on the guitar's 4th. and 5th. strings.
Post by Dick Muldoon
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Of course, lots of it, and there are musics we can take away from
their rightful owners! :-)
Che'
Albeniz for instance! Now that stuff should ONLY be played on the
guitar! BTW, who did the first transcription of Sevilla from guitar
to piano...... was it Albeniz?
MT
Raptor
2007-10-07 16:59:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are. <
I recall as a child watching Casals playing those Bach suites. I was
transfixed with Casals, the cello and Bach. Later, when I heard them
on guitar I was very disappointed. Gone was the rich emotive voice
of consummate authority ....did I forget profound. At one time in my
studies I listened to various artist play these suites on the cello
every morning just as the sun was coming up over the beach where I was
living before I began my daily scales. When it came time for me to
play them I did them just to get them out of the way so I could get
back to music more to my taste with the guitar. Of course that is
just my taste an http://youtu.be/ufVV1H5pkA8
On the other hand....it's very interesting to learn how to imitate the
voice of the cello on the guitar's 4th. and 5th. strings.
Post by Dick Muldoon
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Of course, lots of it, and there are musics we can take away from
their rightful owners! :-)
Che'
Albeniz for instance! Now that stuff should ONLY be played on the
guitar! BTW, who did the first transcription of Sevilla from guitar
to piano...... was it Albeniz?
MT- Hide quoted text -
I don't know about that, Tashi. You don't care for Alicia's
recordings? I think her contribution to Spanish and Catalonian music
is pretty important and helps inform what guitarists may take away
from the music's origin.

mark
Tashi
2007-10-07 17:04:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
Post by Tashi
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are. <
I recall as a child watching Casals playing those Bach suites. I was
transfixed with Casals, the cello and Bach. Later, when I heard them
on guitar I was very disappointed. Gone was the rich emotive voice
of consummate authority ....did I forget profound. At one time in my
studies I listened to various artist play these suites on the cello
every morning just as the sun was coming up over the beach where I was
living before I began my daily scales. When it came time for me to
play them I did them just to get them out of the way so I could get
back to music more to my taste with the guitar. Of course that is
just my taste an

On the other hand....it's very interesting to learn how to imitate the
voice of the cello on the guitar's 4th. and 5th. strings.
Post by Dick Muldoon
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Of course, lots of it, and there are musics we can take away from
their rightful owners! :-)
Che'
Albeniz for instance! Now that stuff should ONLY be played on the
guitar! BTW, who did the first transcription of Sevilla from guitar
to piano...... was it Albeniz?
MT- Hide quoted text -
I don't know about that, Tashi. You don't care for Alicia's
recordings? I think her contribution to Spanish and Catalonian music
is pretty important and helps inform what guitarists may take away
from the music's origin.
mark- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
It's been ages since I've heard her...... I should get a recording
MT
John Nguyen
2007-10-07 17:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Raptor
Post by Tashi
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are. <
I recall as a child watching Casals playing those Bach suites. I was
transfixed with Casals, the cello and Bach. Later, when I heard them
on guitar I was very disappointed. Gone was the rich emotive voice
of consummate authority ....did I forget profound. At one time in my
studies I listened to various artist play these suites on the cello
every morning just as the sun was coming up over the beach where I was
living before I began my daily scales. When it came time for me to
play them I did them just to get them out of the way so I could get
back to music more to my taste with the guitar. Of course that is
just my taste an http://youtu.be/rIzKdmDxdD0http
On the other hand....it's very interesting to learn how to imitate the
voice of the cello on the guitar's 4th. and 5th. strings.
Post by Dick Muldoon
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Of course, lots of it, and there are musics we can take away from
their rightful owners! :-)
Che'
Albeniz for instance! Now that stuff should ONLY be played on the
guitar! BTW, who did the first transcription of Sevilla from guitar
to piano...... was it Albeniz?
MT- Hide quoted text -
I don't know about that, Tashi. You don't care for Alicia's
recordings? I think her contribution to Spanish and Catalonian music
is pretty important and helps inform what guitarists may take away
from the music's origin.
mark- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
It's been ages since I've heard her...... I should get a recording
MT- -
While you're there, get her Granados DC too.
Cheers,

John
Carlos Barrientos
2007-10-07 21:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Raptor
Post by Tashi
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are. <
I recall as a child watching Casals playing those Bach suites. I was
transfixed with Casals, the cello and Bach. Later, when I heard them
on guitar I was very disappointed. Gone was the rich emotive voice
of consummate authority ....did I forget profound. At one time in my
studies I listened to various artist play these suites on the cello
every morning just as the sun was coming up over the beach where I was
living before I began my daily scales. When it came time for me to
play them I did them just to get them out of the way so I could get
back to music more to my taste with the guitar. Of course that is
just my taste an http://youtu.be/rIzKdmDxdD0http
On the other hand....it's very interesting to learn how to imitate the
voice of the cello on the guitar's 4th. and 5th. strings.
Post by Dick Muldoon
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Of course, lots of it, and there are musics we can take away from
their rightful owners! :-)
Che'
Albeniz for instance! Now that stuff should ONLY be played on the
guitar! BTW, who did the first transcription of Sevilla from guitar
to piano...... was it Albeniz?
MT- Hide quoted text -
I don't know about that, Tashi. You don't care for Alicia's
recordings? I think her contribution to Spanish and Catalonian music
is pretty important and helps inform what guitarists may take away
from the music's origin.
mark- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
It's been ages since I've heard her...... I should get a recording
MT
She so fine!!!
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
Carlos Barrientos
2007-10-07 21:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are. <
I recall as a child watching Casals playing those Bach suites. I was
transfixed with Casals, the cello and Bach. Later, when I heard them
on guitar I was very disappointed. Gone was the rich emotive voice
of consummate authority ....did I forget profound. At one time in my
studies I listened to various artist play these suites on the cello
every morning just as the sun was coming up over the beach where I was
living before I began my daily scales. When it came time for me to
play them I did them just to get them out of the way so I could get
back to music more to my taste with the guitar. Of course that is
just my taste an http://youtu.be/9u6yXNYaHcg http://youtu.be/ufVV1H5pkA8
On the other hand....it's very interesting to learn how to imitate the
voice of the cello on the guitar's 4th. and 5th. strings.
Post by Dick Muldoon
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Of course, lots of it, and there are musics we can take away from
their rightful owners! :-)
Che'
Albeniz for instance! Now that stuff should ONLY be played on the
guitar! BTW, who did the first transcription of Sevilla from guitar
to piano...... was it Albeniz?
MT
Mssr. Stanley Yates, I believe, has an extensive answer to this on his site
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
Dick Muldoon
2007-10-07 18:51:25 UTC
Permalink
I meant no slight against the guitar or against Sollscher, who is a
persistent favorite.

Remarkable, albeit sleep-deprived day ... a "transforming experience" in
the dark; an hour failing -- but not catastrophically -- to practice
scales with the expressiveness of the cello; plus I've now learned
something new about how the brain processes timbre and pitch; added a
book to my reading list; and discovered something about ducks to boot.

Time to pull out Soundboard and read one or two of Mr. Yates'
transcriptions :-).

Weird stuff, music.

Dick
John Nguyen
2007-10-07 19:10:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Muldoon
I meant no slight against the guitar or against Sollscher, who is a
persistent favorite.
Remarkable, albeit sleep-deprived day ... a "transforming experience" in
the dark; an hour failing -- but not catastrophically -- to practice
scales with the expressiveness of the cello; plus I've now learned
something new about how the brain processes timbre and pitch; added a
book to my reading list; and discovered something about ducks to boot.
Time to pull out Soundboard and read one or two of Mr. Yates'
transcriptions :-).
Weird stuff, music.
Dick
Where else can you find Bach, Pho, ducks, dogs, brain processing
logics, Albeniz, etc. in one thread? I think we are a bunch of
jollies :-)
Cheers,

John
Richard F. Sayage
2007-10-07 19:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Post by Dick Muldoon
I meant no slight against the guitar or against Sollscher, who is a
persistent favorite.
Remarkable, albeit sleep-deprived day ... a "transforming experience" in
the dark; an hour failing -- but not catastrophically -- to practice
scales with the expressiveness of the cello; plus I've now learned
something new about how the brain processes timbre and pitch; added a
book to my reading list; and discovered something about ducks to boot.
Time to pull out Soundboard and read one or two of Mr. Yates'
transcriptions :-).
Weird stuff, music.
Dick
Where else can you find Bach, Pho, ducks, dogs, brain processing
logics, Albeniz, etc. in one thread? I think we are a bunch of
jollies :-)
Cheers,
John
We are a bunch of somethings, but jollies ain't it...

hahaha

Rich
Larry Deack
2007-10-07 19:26:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Where else can you find Bach, Pho, ducks, dogs, brain processing
logics, Albeniz, etc. in one thread? I think we are a bunch of
jollies :-)
Cheers,
The archive seems to be full of such RMCG meanderings.

Have you tried Stanley's transcriptions of Bach's Cello Suites? I
think there is a lot to learn from that book about the topic of this thread.

It's A-Mazing how often good things get buried in the fun we have
making this labyrinth of connections.
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-07 21:44:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by John Nguyen
Where else can you find Bach, Pho, ducks, dogs, brain processing
logics, Albeniz, etc. in one thread? I think we are a bunch of
jollies :-)
Cheers,
The archive seems to be full of such RMCG meanderings.
Have you tried Stanley's transcriptions of Bach's Cello Suites? I
think there is a lot to learn from that book about the topic of this thread.
It's A-Mazing how often good things get buried in the fun we have
making this labyrinth of connections.
'Tuk-tuk-tuk,' clucked Larry like an agitated hen.

:-)
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-07 20:20:09 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 7, 11:51 am, Dick Muldoon <***@verizon.net> wrote:

-- to practice scales with the expressiveness of the cello.--

If you are thinking like this during scale practice you will become a
better player than most. It's flustrating in the begining to play
scales in such a way as each note seemlessly melts into the next
without any negative space and centered in it's intonation for each
key on a fretted instrument. This might start another dog fight but
I'm firmly convinced we do control intonation on the guitar. If
students realized that shaping the framework of the left hand is
critical for scales because it
makes for consistent finger finger placement with kinesthetic
awareness which _tells us_ what to do to improve them. This is the
reason many teachers require you keeping the first finger down while
the second finger is placed in asscending scales...to maintain the
shape of the left hand. It's that constant maintaining of proper
position and _consistent_ finger placement that allows us to play with
string shifts and string changes made imperceptible. Velocity
accounts for nothing while expressiveness is everything in my scale
book. I say this for a very good reason, if you can play scales in
all keys with focused notes that are homogenious with the next
step...velocity will come of it's own accord. Students wonder how and
what to do to play faster scales and just can't get it through their
heads sometimes velocity is not where it's at.

A little secret between you, me and the fence post. I could never
tolerate anyone to play scales better than I could. I just couldn't
take it.... I didn't care if someone could play them faster but if you
played them better I was absolutely relentless in maching your scales
and bettering them. I didn't elect to do that.... I was driven by
reasons I don't claim to know myself to perfect my scales.

You are the first person in 12 years to mention "expressive scale
practice" besides myself so I unloaded on you. There are some tricks
to shorten the procees I could explain. The reason I don't is no one
else does or they're so convinced in what they learned at one time
they can't accept the fact there may be better ways. Guitarist seem
to want black and white rules and answers for scales where scales are
very colorful.

End of rant,

Che'
Richard F. Sayage
2007-10-07 22:43:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
-- to practice scales with the expressiveness of the cello.--
If you are thinking like this during scale practice you will become a
better player than most. It's flustrating in the begining to play
scales in such a way as each note seemlessly melts into the next
without any negative space and centered in it's intonation for each
key on a fretted instrument. This might start another dog fight but
I'm firmly convinced we do control intonation on the guitar. If
students realized that shaping the framework of the left hand is
critical for scales because it
makes for consistent finger finger placement with kinesthetic
awareness which _tells us_ what to do to improve them. This is the
reason many teachers require you keeping the first finger down while
the second finger is placed in asscending scales...to maintain the
shape of the left hand. It's that constant maintaining of proper
position and _consistent_ finger placement that allows us to play with
string shifts and string changes made imperceptible. Velocity
accounts for nothing while expressiveness is everything in my scale
book. I say this for a very good reason, if you can play scales in
all keys with focused notes that are homogenious with the next
step...velocity will come of it's own accord. Students wonder how and
what to do to play faster scales and just can't get it through their
heads sometimes velocity is not where it's at.
A little secret between you, me and the fence post. I could never
tolerate anyone to play scales better than I could. I just couldn't
take it.... I didn't care if someone could play them faster but if you
played them better I was absolutely relentless in maching your scales
and bettering them. I didn't elect to do that.... I was driven by
reasons I don't claim to know myself to perfect my scales.
You are the first person in 12 years to mention "expressive scale
practice" besides myself so I unloaded on you. There are some tricks
to shorten the procees I could explain. The reason I don't is no one
else does or they're so convinced in what they learned at one time
they can't accept the fact there may be better ways. Guitarist seem
to want black and white rules and answers for scales where scales are
very colorful.
End of rant,
Che'
Awesome rant. awesome.

Rich
Steve Freides
2007-10-07 23:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these and think
they're wonderful.
Post by Dick Muldoon
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Albeniz is about the only stuff I can think of that works as well or
better on the guitar than in the original. Particularly in the hands of
a master like Bach, the compositions are just so well suited to the
instrument for which they were written. That said, Bach transcribed all
sorts of stuff, some pretty wacky transcriptions, too, so it's not at
all out of the question that he'd approve. I don't recall the
particulars but I _think_ it was Vivaldi for some sort of string
orchestra - maybe a concerto grosso, maybe it was just for solo violin
??? - that Bach transcribed for orchestra and three harpsicords. Sorry
if that's not right but it was something equally odd.

-S-
Raptor
2007-10-08 00:30:37 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 7, 5:57 pm, "Steve Freides" <***@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these and think
they're wonderful.

Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and (2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion. For the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the latter, you
have to be pretty good in the first place.

mark
Steve Freides
2007-10-08 00:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these and think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and (2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion. For the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the latter, you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You're saying you find his interpretations too romantic (or a sentiment
similar to that)? I can see that point of view but I don't agree with
it.

-S-
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-08 02:50:12 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 7, 5:30 pm, Raptor <***@msn.com> wrote:

(2) it's like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs.
"art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion.<
Read the French painters and Academy battles of the 19th. centur, for
a start. May they run endlessly and uselessly forever.

Che'
Raptor
2007-10-08 02:57:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
(2) it's like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs.
"art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion.<
Read the French painters and Academy battles of the 19th. centur, for
a start. May they run endlessly and uselessly forever.
Che'
Che', bear in mind the intellectual atmosphere enscribing those
debates in the French academies. They were aesthetically literate,
not infrequently, deeply immersed in the subject, and passionate about
their views. No poseurs allowed. By contrast, and I may have to kill
myself for writing this, Jackson's not entirely wrong about the effect
of "well, that's only your opinion" upon things cultural in our
society. I wonder if the French observed Rule 6?

mark
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-08 04:38:08 UTC
Permalink
Alain Reiher
2007-10-08 03:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these and think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and (2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion. For the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the latter, you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put themselves in "the way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was missing? (That makes
for an incomplete image).

Alain
Raptor
2007-10-08 03:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Steve Freides
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these and think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and (2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion. For the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the latter, you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put themselves in "the way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was missing? (That makes
for an incomplete image).
Alain- Hide quoted text -
Well, yes, you have a point. But these things can rest along a
continuum. For example, Chapdelaine's Bach at one end, and at the
other, Stanley's. They're both playing the same notes, more or less,
but in one case I feel I'm hearing Bach and in the other, well, I'm
not sure what I'm hearing. I go away for awhile and think about it,
and if I still think to myself, "that's wierd!", then I fell justified
in saying the artist got in the way of the composer. Doesn't make it
bad - it's not a moral issue - just different. But to return to your
point, yes, every interpretation runs the risk of going past the
"tipping point" of artistic license and into the twilight zone.

mark
Alain Reiher
2007-10-08 03:35:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Steve Freides
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these and think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and (2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion. For the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the latter, you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put themselves in "the way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was missing? (That makes
for an incomplete image).
Alain- Hide quoted text -
Well, yes, you have a point. But these things can rest along a
continuum. For example, Chapdelaine's Bach at one end, and at the
other, Stanley's. They're both playing the same notes, more or less,
but in one case I feel I'm hearing Bach and in the other, well, I'm
not sure what I'm hearing. I go away for awhile and think about it,
and if I still think to myself, "that's wierd!", then I fell justified
in saying the artist got in the way of the composer. Doesn't make it
bad - it's not a moral issue - just different. But to return to your
point, yes, every interpretation runs the risk of going past the
"tipping point" of artistic license and into the twilight zone.
mark
The important words here (I mean in this appreciation or judgment of an
interpretation) are the words "I feel" ...
They (the words) bring it inevitably to a subjective evidence (impossible
juxtaposition of two words but Eh!) and result in a satisfying powerful
appropriation!
Our (musical) judgment has every right to be right.

Alain
Raptor
2007-10-08 03:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Steve Freides
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these and think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and (2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion. For the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the latter, you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put themselves in "the way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was missing? (That makes
for an incomplete image).
Alain- Hide quoted text -
Well, yes, you have a point. But these things can rest along a
continuum. For example, Chapdelaine's Bach at one end, and at the
other, Stanley's. They're both playing the same notes, more or less,
but in one case I feel I'm hearing Bach and in the other, well, I'm
not sure what I'm hearing. I go away for awhile and think about it,
and if I still think to myself, "that's wierd!", then I fell justified
in saying the artist got in the way of the composer. Doesn't make it
bad - it's not a moral issue - just different. But to return to your
point, yes, every interpretation runs the risk of going past the
"tipping point" of artistic license and into the twilight zone.
mark
The important words here (I mean in this appreciation or judgment of an
interpretation) are the words "I feel" ...
They (the words) bring it inevitably to a subjective evidence (impossible
juxtaposition of two words but Eh!) and result in a satisfying powerful
appropriation!
Our (musical) judgment has every right to be right.
Alain- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Alain, unless by "right," your meaning is that every sincere
performance is authentically what the performer intended, and so for
him/her, "right," and our individual judgement(s) of it, equally
"right," I'm almost certainly missing your point, because this sounds
a little ad hominum to me. I'm not talking about some remote purchase
point from which an all-knowing repository of things Baroque might
deign to reach down and evaluate a given Bach performance. I'm just
saying that there is a form to Baroque literature and even more so, to
Bach, which is deserving of respect unless you state clearly you
choose to take liberties, large or small, in which case you can do
whatever you like with the notes, rhythms, etc.

mark
Alain Reiher
2007-10-08 05:47:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Steve Freides
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these and think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and (2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion. For the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the latter, you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put themselves in "the way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was missing? (That makes
for an incomplete image).
Alain- Hide quoted text -
Well, yes, you have a point. But these things can rest along a
continuum. For example, Chapdelaine's Bach at one end, and at the
other, Stanley's. They're both playing the same notes, more or less,
but in one case I feel I'm hearing Bach and in the other, well, I'm
not sure what I'm hearing. I go away for awhile and think about it,
and if I still think to myself, "that's wierd!", then I fell justified
in saying the artist got in the way of the composer. Doesn't make it
bad - it's not a moral issue - just different. But to return to your
point, yes, every interpretation runs the risk of going past the
"tipping point" of artistic license and into the twilight zone.
mark
The important words here (I mean in this appreciation or judgment of an
interpretation) are the words "I feel" ...
They (the words) bring it inevitably to a subjective evidence (impossible
juxtaposition of two words but Eh!) and result in a satisfying powerful
appropriation!
Our (musical) judgment has every right to be right.
Alain- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Alain, unless by "right," your meaning is that every sincere
performance is authentically what the performer intended, and so for
him/her, "right," and our individual judgement(s) of it, equally
"right," I'm almost certainly missing your point, because this sounds
a little ad hominum to me. I'm not talking about some remote purchase
point from which an all-knowing repository of things Baroque might
deign to reach down and evaluate a given Bach performance. I'm just
saying that there is a form to Baroque literature and even more so, to
Bach, which is deserving of respect unless you state clearly you
choose to take liberties, large or small, in which case you can do
whatever you like with the notes, rhythms, etc.
mark
No, no ... What I meant was simply that you have the right (and every one
else for that matter) to like what you like for which ever reason you evoke
to do so.
There is no end to interpretation ... we would not otherwise indulge in this
form of art if it was strictly regimented with a set of rules that would
deny any input of emotional
expression ... of course there is some guidelines to respect the style of an
era like the era of baroque music ... respect for Bach in exponential! was
not his music served to rap some meat at a point in history!
Music Historian have rolled out of their bed consumed with uncontrollable
insomnia just because some uninformed interpreter had taken the liberty to
add a seventh in a Bach gavotte! One note and they cannot sleep until the
affront is repaired!
the only sad thing in my opinion is that Bach is not there to see and
witness for himself how crazy we are about his music! immortality is a
strange concept.

Alain
Steve Freides
2007-10-08 15:20:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Steve Freides
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these and think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and (2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion. For the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the latter, you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put themselves in
"the
way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was missing? (That makes
for an incomplete image).
Alain- Hide quoted text -
Well, yes, you have a point. But these things can rest along a
continuum. For example, Chapdelaine's Bach at one end, and at the
other, Stanley's. They're both playing the same notes, more or less,
but in one case I feel I'm hearing Bach and in the other, well, I'm
not sure what I'm hearing. I go away for awhile and think about it,
and if I still think to myself, "that's wierd!", then I fell justified
in saying the artist got in the way of the composer. Doesn't make it
bad - it's not a moral issue - just different. But to return to your
point, yes, every interpretation runs the risk of going past the
"tipping point" of artistic license and into the twilight zone.
mark
The important words here (I mean in this appreciation or judgment of an
interpretation) are the words "I feel" ...
They (the words) bring it inevitably to a subjective evidence (impossible
juxtaposition of two words but Eh!) and result in a satisfying powerful
appropriation!
Our (musical) judgment has every right to be right.
Alain- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Alain, unless by "right," your meaning is that every sincere
performance is authentically what the performer intended, and so for
him/her, "right," and our individual judgement(s) of it, equally
"right," I'm almost certainly missing your point, because this sounds
a little ad hominum to me. I'm not talking about some remote purchase
point from which an all-knowing repository of things Baroque might
deign to reach down and evaluate a given Bach performance. I'm just
saying that there is a form to Baroque literature and even more so, to
Bach, which is deserving of respect unless you state clearly you
choose to take liberties, large or small, in which case you can do
whatever you like with the notes, rhythms, etc.
I think this is open to debate. I've heard it said that Baroque
musicians were closer to modern jazz musicians than modern classical
musicians. I know I've heard some very different-from-each-other
performances of Bach and I don't feel the need to necessary choose one
over the other - they can be different and all be good. I think our
reverence for what's on the printed page is a relatively modern idea and
I'm not so sure it's completely appropriate for Baroque music. Speaking
purely as a listener and not a performer, some of the most accurate Bach
I've ever heard has also been some of the most deadly boring.

Not that it matters to this discussion very much, but the other night, I
was going through Bach 2-Part Inventions, playing the left hand on a
fretless electric bass and singing/solfeging the right hand. I enjoyed
it - can't say that anyone else within earshot did, though. :) The
F-minor is my favorite (and the F-minor 3-part is also my favorite one
of those).

-S-
Tashi
2007-10-08 17:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Steve Freides
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these and think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and (2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion. For the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the latter, you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put themselves in
"the
way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was missing? (That makes
for an incomplete image).
Alain- Hide quoted text -
Well, yes, you have a point. But these things can rest along a
continuum. For example, Chapdelaine's Bach at one end, and at the
other, Stanley's. They're both playing the same notes, more or less,
but in one case I feel I'm hearing Bach and in the other, well, I'm
not sure what I'm hearing. I go away for awhile and think about it,
and if I still think to myself, "that's wierd!", then I fell justified
in saying the artist got in the way of the composer. Doesn't make it
bad - it's not a moral issue - just different. But to return to your
point, yes, every interpretation runs the risk of going past the
"tipping point" of artistic license and into the twilight zone.
mark
The important words here (I mean in this appreciation or judgment of an
interpretation) are the words "I feel" ...
They (the words) bring it inevitably to a subjective evidence (impossible
juxtaposition of two words but Eh!) and result in a satisfying powerful
appropriation!
Our (musical) judgment has every right to be right.
Alain- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Alain, unless by "right," your meaning is that every sincere
performance is authentically what the performer intended, and so for
him/her, "right," and our individual judgement(s) of it, equally
"right," I'm almost certainly missing your point, because this sounds
a little ad hominum to me. I'm not talking about some remote purchase
point from which an all-knowing repository of things Baroque might
deign to reach down and evaluate a given Bach performance. I'm just
saying that there is a form to Baroque literature and even more so, to
Bach, which is deserving of respect unless you state clearly you
choose to take liberties, large or small, in which case you can do
whatever you like with the notes, rhythms, etc.
I think this is open to debate. I've heard it said that Baroque
musicians were closer to modern jazz musicians than modern classical
musicians.
Spoken like a true jazzer. I would agree with you however, only from
the French school of the baroque. The Germans were the antidote to
jazz.

The French fascination with Jazz can be found in the city called New
Orleans. Need I say more?
MT




I know I've heard some very different-from-each-other
Post by Steve Freides
performances of Bach and I don't feel the need to necessary choose one
over the other - they can be different and all be good. I think our
reverence for what's on the printed page is a relatively modern idea and
I'm not so sure it's completely appropriate for Baroque music. Speaking
purely as a listener and not a performer, some of the most accurate Bach
I've ever heard has also been some of the most deadly boring.
Not that it matters to this discussion very much, but the other night, I
was going through Bach 2-Part Inventions, playing the left hand on a
fretless electric bass and singing/solfeging the right hand. I enjoyed
it - can't say that anyone else within earshot did, though. :) The
F-minor is my favorite (and the F-minor 3-part is also my favorite one
of those).
-S-- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Steve Freides
2007-10-08 17:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
On Oct 7, 5:57 pm, "Steve Freides"
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these
and
think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and (2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion.
For
the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the
latter,
you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put themselves in
"the
way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was missing? (That makes
for an incomplete image).
Alain- Hide quoted text -
Well, yes, you have a point. But these things can rest along a
continuum. For example, Chapdelaine's Bach at one end, and at the
other, Stanley's. They're both playing the same notes, more or less,
but in one case I feel I'm hearing Bach and in the other, well, I'm
not sure what I'm hearing. I go away for awhile and think about it,
and if I still think to myself, "that's wierd!", then I fell justified
in saying the artist got in the way of the composer. Doesn't
make
it
bad - it's not a moral issue - just different. But to return to your
point, yes, every interpretation runs the risk of going past the
"tipping point" of artistic license and into the twilight zone.
mark
The important words here (I mean in this appreciation or judgment
of
an
interpretation) are the words "I feel" ...
They (the words) bring it inevitably to a subjective evidence (impossible
juxtaposition of two words but Eh!) and result in a satisfying powerful
appropriation!
Our (musical) judgment has every right to be right.
Alain- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Alain, unless by "right," your meaning is that every sincere
performance is authentically what the performer intended, and so for
him/her, "right," and our individual judgement(s) of it, equally
"right," I'm almost certainly missing your point, because this sounds
a little ad hominum to me. I'm not talking about some remote purchase
point from which an all-knowing repository of things Baroque might
deign to reach down and evaluate a given Bach performance. I'm just
saying that there is a form to Baroque literature and even more so, to
Bach, which is deserving of respect unless you state clearly you
choose to take liberties, large or small, in which case you can do
whatever you like with the notes, rhythms, etc.
I think this is open to debate. I've heard it said that Baroque
musicians were closer to modern jazz musicians than modern classical
musicians.
Spoken like a true jazzer. I would agree with you however, only from
the French school of the baroque. The Germans were the antidote to
jazz.
The stories are that, as great as Bach compositions like his fugues for
the organ were, he could improvise pieces that were every bit the equal
of their 'pre-composed' counterparts. If that's true, I find it hard to
imagine, well, you get the idea.

-S-
Post by Tashi
The French fascination with Jazz can be found in the city called New
Orleans. Need I say more?
MT
I know I've heard some very different-from-each-other
Post by Steve Freides
performances of Bach and I don't feel the need to necessary choose one
over the other - they can be different and all be good. I think our
reverence for what's on the printed page is a relatively modern idea and
I'm not so sure it's completely appropriate for Baroque music.
Speaking
purely as a listener and not a performer, some of the most accurate Bach
I've ever heard has also been some of the most deadly boring.
Not that it matters to this discussion very much, but the other night, I
was going through Bach 2-Part Inventions, playing the left hand on a
fretless electric bass and singing/solfeging the right hand. I enjoyed
it - can't say that anyone else within earshot did, though. :) The
F-minor is my favorite (and the F-minor 3-part is also my favorite one
of those).
-S-- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Tashi
2007-10-08 17:37:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Tashi
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
On Oct 7, 5:57 pm, "Steve Freides"
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these
and
think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and
(2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion.
For
the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the
latter,
you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put themselves in
"the
way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was missing? (That makes
for an incomplete image).
Alain- Hide quoted text -
Well, yes, you have a point. But these things can rest along a
continuum. For example, Chapdelaine's Bach at one end, and at the
other, Stanley's. They're both playing the same notes, more or less,
but in one case I feel I'm hearing Bach and in the other, well, I'm
not sure what I'm hearing. I go away for awhile and think about it,
and if I still think to myself, "that's wierd!", then I fell justified
in saying the artist got in the way of the composer. Doesn't
make
it
bad - it's not a moral issue - just different. But to return to your
point, yes, every interpretation runs the risk of going past the
"tipping point" of artistic license and into the twilight zone.
mark
The important words here (I mean in this appreciation or judgment
of
an
interpretation) are the words "I feel" ...
They (the words) bring it inevitably to a subjective evidence (impossible
juxtaposition of two words but Eh!) and result in a satisfying powerful
appropriation!
Our (musical) judgment has every right to be right.
Alain- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Alain, unless by "right," your meaning is that every sincere
performance is authentically what the performer intended, and so for
him/her, "right," and our individual judgement(s) of it, equally
"right," I'm almost certainly missing your point, because this sounds
a little ad hominum to me. I'm not talking about some remote purchase
point from which an all-knowing repository of things Baroque might
deign to reach down and evaluate a given Bach performance. I'm just
saying that there is a form to Baroque literature and even more so, to
Bach, which is deserving of respect unless you state clearly you
choose to take liberties, large or small, in which case you can do
whatever you like with the notes, rhythms, etc.
I think this is open to debate. I've heard it said that Baroque
musicians were closer to modern jazz musicians than modern classical
musicians.
Spoken like a true jazzer. I would agree with you however, only from
the French school of the baroque. The Germans were the antidote to
jazz.
The stories are that, as great as Bach compositions like his fugues for
the organ were, he could improvise pieces that were every bit the equal
of their 'pre-composed' counterparts. If that's true, I find it hard to
imagine, well, you get the idea.
Improvisation, and Jazz are not necessarily synonymous.
MT
Post by Steve Freides
-S-
Post by Tashi
The French fascination with Jazz can be found in the city called New
Orleans. Need I say more?
MT
I know I've heard some very different-from-each-other
Post by Steve Freides
performances of Bach and I don't feel the need to necessary choose one
over the other - they can be different and all be good. I think our
reverence for what's on the printed page is a relatively modern idea and
I'm not so sure it's completely appropriate for Baroque music.
Speaking
purely as a listener and not a performer, some of the most accurate Bach
I've ever heard has also been some of the most deadly boring.
Not that it matters to this discussion very much, but the other night, I
was going through Bach 2-Part Inventions, playing the left hand on a
fretless electric bass and singing/solfeging the right hand. I enjoyed
it - can't say that anyone else within earshot did, though. :) The
F-minor is my favorite (and the F-minor 3-part is also my favorite one
of those).
-S-- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Steve Freides
2007-10-08 19:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Tashi
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
On Oct 7, 5:57 pm, "Steve Freides"
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these
and
think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and
(2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical"
vs.
"art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion.
For
the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is
a
fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the
composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of
backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the
latter,
you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put
themselves
in
"the
way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was
missing?
(That makes
for an incomplete image).
Alain- Hide quoted text -
Well, yes, you have a point. But these things can rest along a
continuum. For example, Chapdelaine's Bach at one end, and
at
the
other, Stanley's. They're both playing the same notes, more
or
less,
but in one case I feel I'm hearing Bach and in the other,
well,
I'm
not sure what I'm hearing. I go away for awhile and think
about
it,
and if I still think to myself, "that's wierd!", then I fell justified
in saying the artist got in the way of the composer. Doesn't
make
it
bad - it's not a moral issue - just different. But to return
to
your
point, yes, every interpretation runs the risk of going past the
"tipping point" of artistic license and into the twilight zone.
mark
The important words here (I mean in this appreciation or judgment
of
an
interpretation) are the words "I feel" ...
They (the words) bring it inevitably to a subjective evidence (impossible
juxtaposition of two words but Eh!) and result in a satisfying powerful
appropriation!
Our (musical) judgment has every right to be right.
Alain- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Alain, unless by "right," your meaning is that every sincere
performance is authentically what the performer intended, and so for
him/her, "right," and our individual judgement(s) of it, equally
"right," I'm almost certainly missing your point, because this sounds
a little ad hominum to me. I'm not talking about some remote purchase
point from which an all-knowing repository of things Baroque might
deign to reach down and evaluate a given Bach performance. I'm just
saying that there is a form to Baroque literature and even more
so,
to
Bach, which is deserving of respect unless you state clearly you
choose to take liberties, large or small, in which case you can do
whatever you like with the notes, rhythms, etc.
I think this is open to debate. I've heard it said that Baroque
musicians were closer to modern jazz musicians than modern
classical
musicians.
Spoken like a true jazzer. I would agree with you however, only from
the French school of the baroque. The Germans were the antidote to
jazz.
The stories are that, as great as Bach compositions like his fugues for
the organ were, he could improvise pieces that were every bit the equal
of their 'pre-composed' counterparts. If that's true, I find it hard to
imagine, well, you get the idea.
Improvisation, and Jazz are not necessarily synonymous.
True, dat, but the history of notation in Western art music, at least
until the mid-twentieth century, is one of increasing precision and
detail, IOW, as the decades and centuries wore on, composers left less
and less to chance. I think it's unreasonable to assume that aspects of
performance that weren't notated simply weren't thought of or weren't
somehow executed, at least by some performers some of the time.
Post by Tashi
MT
Post by Steve Freides
-S-
Post by Tashi
The French fascination with Jazz can be found in the city called New
Orleans. Need I say more?
MT
I know I've heard some very different-from-each-other
Post by Steve Freides
performances of Bach and I don't feel the need to necessary choose one
over the other - they can be different and all be good. I think our
reverence for what's on the printed page is a relatively modern
idea
and
I'm not so sure it's completely appropriate for Baroque music.
Speaking
purely as a listener and not a performer, some of the most
accurate
Bach
I've ever heard has also been some of the most deadly boring.
Not that it matters to this discussion very much, but the other night, I
was going through Bach 2-Part Inventions, playing the left hand on a
fretless electric bass and singing/solfeging the right hand. I enjoyed
it - can't say that anyone else within earshot did, though. :)
The
F-minor is my favorite (and the F-minor 3-part is also my favorite one
of those).
-S-- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Tashi
2007-10-08 19:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Tashi
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Tashi
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
On Oct 7, 5:57 pm, "Steve Freides"
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these
and
think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and
(2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical"
vs.
"art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion.
For
the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is
a
fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the
composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the
latter,
you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put
themselves
in
"the
way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was
missing?
(That makes
for an incomplete image).
Alain- Hide quoted text -
Well, yes, you have a point. But these things can rest along a
continuum. For example, Chapdelaine's Bach at one end, and
at
the
other, Stanley's. They're both playing the same notes, more
or
less,
but in one case I feel I'm hearing Bach and in the other,
well,
I'm
not sure what I'm hearing. I go away for awhile and think
about
it,
and if I still think to myself, "that's wierd!", then I fell
justified
in saying the artist got in the way of the composer. Doesn't
make
it
bad - it's not a moral issue - just different. But to return
to
your
point, yes, every interpretation runs the risk of going past the
"tipping point" of artistic license and into the twilight zone.
mark
The important words here (I mean in this appreciation or judgment
of
an
interpretation) are the words "I feel" ...
They (the words) bring it inevitably to a subjective evidence
(impossible
juxtaposition of two words but Eh!) and result in a satisfying powerful
appropriation!
Our (musical) judgment has every right to be right.
Alain- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Alain, unless by "right," your meaning is that every sincere
performance is authentically what the performer intended, and so for
him/her, "right," and our individual judgement(s) of it, equally
"right," I'm almost certainly missing your point, because this sounds
a little ad hominum to me. I'm not talking about some remote purchase
point from which an all-knowing repository of things Baroque might
deign to reach down and evaluate a given Bach performance. I'm just
saying that there is a form to Baroque literature and even more
so,
to
Bach, which is deserving of respect unless you state clearly you
choose to take liberties, large or small, in which case you can do
whatever you like with the notes, rhythms, etc.
I think this is open to debate. I've heard it said that Baroque
musicians were closer to modern jazz musicians than modern classical
musicians.
Spoken like a true jazzer. I would agree with you however, only from
the French school of the baroque. The Germans were the antidote to
jazz.
The stories are that, as great as Bach compositions like his fugues for
the organ were, he could improvise pieces that were every bit the equal
of their 'pre-composed' counterparts. If that's true, I find it hard to
imagine, well, you get the idea.
Improvisation, and Jazz are not necessarily synonymous.
True, dat, but the history of notation in Western art music, at least
until the mid-twentieth century, is one of increasing precision and
detail, IOW, as the decades and centuries wore on, composers left less
and less to chance. I think it's unreasonable to assume that aspects of
performance that weren't notated simply weren't thought of or weren't
somehow executed, at least by some performers some of the time.
Post by Tashi
MT
Post by Steve Freides
-S-
Post by Tashi
The French fascination with Jazz can be found in the city called New
Orleans. Need I say more?
MT
I know I've heard some very different-from-each-other
Post by Steve Freides
performances of Bach and I don't feel the need to necessary choose one
over the other - they can be different and all be good. I think our
reverence for what's on the printed page is a relatively modern
idea
and
I'm not so sure it's completely appropriate for Baroque music.
Speaking
purely as a listener and not a performer, some of the most
accurate
Bach
I've ever heard has also been some of the most deadly boring.
Not that it matters to this discussion very much, but the other night, I
was going through Bach 2-Part Inventions, playing the left hand on a
fretless electric bass and singing/solfeging the right hand. I enjoyed
it - can't say that anyone else within earshot did, though. :)
The
F-minor is my favorite (and the F-minor 3-part is also my favorite one
of those).
-S-- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
True, it's well known that Francesco de Milano was a great improviser
all the way up to Bach and probably every well known composer.

There was a story on 60 minutes last year about a women form Brazil I
believe ( can't remember her name) who was an amazing improviser on
piano. She could improvised any peice in any style on the spot.
However she couldn't get a concert in New York City because she
obviously was such a threat to the more stuffy classical hierarchy.
MT
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-08 19:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
There was a story on 60 minutes last year about a women form Brazil I
believe ( can't remember her name) who was an amazing improviser on
piano. She could improvised any peice in any style on the spot.
However she couldn't get a concert in New York City because she
obviously was such a threat to the more stuffy classical hierarchy.
Have you ever heard of John Bayless?

Andrew
Carlos Barrientos
2007-10-09 05:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Tashi
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Raptor
On Oct 7, 5:57 pm, "Steve Freides"
What about Yo Yo Ma? I've heard his performances of these
and
think
they're wonderful.
Steve: I guess my only reponse is (1) glad you enjoy him; and (2) it's
like the friction over other artists in the "technical" vs. "art"
debate, which runs endlessly and to no useful conclusion.
For
the
record, no one said Yo Yo Ma isn't a great cellist. He quite
obviously is. He's also a really great guy. But there is a fine
line, and sometimes, no so fine, between interpreting the composer's
work and getting in the way of it. It's a sort of backhanded
compliment I suppose to observe that in order to do the
latter,
you
have to be pretty good in the first place.
mark
You mean that there are interpreters who do not put themselves in
"the
way
of it"?
Have you ever made a puzzle where the last piece was missing? (That makes
for an incomplete image).
Alain- Hide quoted text -
Well, yes, you have a point. But these things can rest along a
continuum. For example, Chapdelaine's Bach at one end, and at the
other, Stanley's. They're both playing the same notes, more or less,
but in one case I feel I'm hearing Bach and in the other, well, I'm
not sure what I'm hearing. I go away for awhile and think about it,
and if I still think to myself, "that's wierd!", then I fell justified
in saying the artist got in the way of the composer. Doesn't
make
it
bad - it's not a moral issue - just different. But to return to your
point, yes, every interpretation runs the risk of going past the
"tipping point" of artistic license and into the twilight zone.
mark
The important words here (I mean in this appreciation or judgment
of
an
interpretation) are the words "I feel" ...
They (the words) bring it inevitably to a subjective evidence (impossible
juxtaposition of two words but Eh!) and result in a satisfying powerful
appropriation!
Our (musical) judgment has every right to be right.
Alain- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Alain, unless by "right," your meaning is that every sincere
performance is authentically what the performer intended, and so for
him/her, "right," and our individual judgement(s) of it, equally
"right," I'm almost certainly missing your point, because this sounds
a little ad hominum to me. I'm not talking about some remote purchase
point from which an all-knowing repository of things Baroque might
deign to reach down and evaluate a given Bach performance. I'm just
saying that there is a form to Baroque literature and even more so, to
Bach, which is deserving of respect unless you state clearly you
choose to take liberties, large or small, in which case you can do
whatever you like with the notes, rhythms, etc.
I think this is open to debate. I've heard it said that Baroque
musicians were closer to modern jazz musicians than modern classical
musicians.
Spoken like a true jazzer. I would agree with you however, only from
the French school of the baroque. The Germans were the antidote to
jazz.
The stories are that, as great as Bach compositions like his fugues for
the organ were, he could improvise pieces that were every bit the equal
of their 'pre-composed' counterparts. If that's true, I find it hard to
imagine, well, you get the idea.
I've just read the same said about Barrios in Sila Godoy's book, as well
as in Six Silver Moonbeams.
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:***@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322
Bridge Kaldro Music-Bridge Classical guitars
2007-10-08 00:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Muldoon
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
nonsense, once a student can read pass grade 1 level they can
read most of the Bach's cello suites which is a wonder way of
learning great music on the guitar instead of playing boring
music on the guitar.



cheers
ed
virtual
2007-10-08 13:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
I agree with you.

Violinists and cellists have a musical tradition which the guitarists
are slowly building. Furthermore some music is much better with bowed
strings than plucked ones.

Did you ever compare Scarlatti on the guitar and on the harpsichord?

Have fun
--
Resources to play the guitar for fun and relaxation

http://www.virtualguitarcenter.com

***@virtualguitarcenter.com
Tashi
2007-10-08 15:17:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by virtual
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
I agree with you.
Violinists and cellists have a musical tradition which the guitarists
are slowly building. Furthermore some music is much better with bowed
strings than plucked ones.
Did you ever compare Scarlatti on the guitar and on the harpsichord?
Have fun
--
Resources to play the guitar for fun and relaxation
http://www.virtualguitarcenter.com
I have! It sounds way better on guitar, and that an't saying much!
Who the hell considers a harpsichord to be a good sound. They did
away with that instrument centuries ago.
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-10-08 13:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Sure, but the Cello suites transcribe very nicely. That does not mean
that they are very nicely transcribed. IMO the best way is to move them
up as little as possible and not to add any notes. That way, at least
the music remains Bach. Most of the guitar versions of #1 are
arrangements, not transcriptions.
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Tashi
2007-10-08 15:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Sure, but the Cello suites transcribe very nicely. That does not mean
that they are very nicely transcribed. IMO the best way is to move them
up as little as possible and not to add any notes. That way, at least
the music remains Bach. Most of the guitar versions of #1 are
arrangements, not transcriptions.
Dear DaveA, look at Bach's 1st lute suite, and then take a look at
what he did with it when he played it on harpsichord! That's why we
pay good money for well thoughtout, intellegent, informed,
transcriptions.
Bach's arrangement of the 5th cello suite for example for lute?
Need I say more.
MT
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html:::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises.http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-10-08 16:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old
vinyl) and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as
Sollscher's playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid,
and how utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Sure, but the Cello suites transcribe very nicely. That does not mean
that they are very nicely transcribed. IMO the best way is to move
them up as little as possible and not to add any notes. That way, at
least the music remains Bach. Most of the guitar versions of #1 are
arrangements, not transcriptions.
Dear DaveA, look at Bach's 1st lute suite, and then take a look at
what he did with it when he played it on harpsichord!
Where's that?

There is a version for recorder, among other things. Such arrangements
are good teaching pieces, but not what concert material, IMO. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Raptor
2007-10-09 00:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Sure, but the Cello suites transcribe very nicely. That does not mean
that they are very nicely transcribed. IMO the best way is to move them
up as little as possible and not to add any notes. That way, at least
the music remains Bach. Most of the guitar versions of #1 are
arrangements, not transcriptions.
Dear DaveA, look at Bach's 1st lute suite, and then take a look at
what he did with it when he played it on harpsichord! That's why we
pay good money for well thoughtout, intellegent, informed,
transcriptions.
Bach's arrangement of the 5th cello suite for example for lute?
Need I say more.
MT
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html::::You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises.http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html- Hide quoted text -
That's twice in one thread you've picked on harpsichords, Tashi. It's
not nice to pick on mother keyboard.

Also, a RMCG disciplinary committee meeting may need to be conveened
by Che' to address your galactic scale violation of Rule 6. Whether
you did or did not sign onto that convention, makes no matter. And
besides, calling a RMCG poster a "pompous ass" is usually redundant,
at one point or another. :-)

mark
Tashi
2007-10-09 02:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raptor
Post by Tashi
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Sure, but the Cello suites transcribe very nicely. That does not mean
that they are very nicely transcribed. IMO the best way is to move them
up as little as possible and not to add any notes. That way, at least
the music remains Bach. Most of the guitar versions of #1 are
arrangements, not transcriptions.
Dear DaveA, look at Bach's 1st lute suite, and then take a look at
what he did with it when he played it on harpsichord! That's why we
pay good money for well thoughtout, intellegent, informed,
transcriptions.
Bach's arrangement of the 5th cello suite for example for lute?
Need I say more.
MT
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html::::Youcan play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises.http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html-Hide quoted text -
That's twice in one thread you've picked on harpsichords, Tashi. It's
not nice to pick on mother keyboard.
Also, a RMCG disciplinary committee meeting may need to be conveened
by Che' to address your galactic scale violation of Rule 6. Whether
you did or did not sign onto that convention, makes no matter. And
besides, calling a RMCG poster a "pompous ass" is usually redundant,
at one point or another. :-)
mark
I'll quit picking on harpsichords if you quit picking on French
pussies.
MT
John Rimmer
2007-10-09 02:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Raptor
Post by Tashi
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Dick Muldoon
I just spent an insomniac Sunday morning listening first to Goran
Sollscher playing Bach's cello suites, then to Rostropovich (old vinyl)
and Heinrich Schiff playing the same ... As lovely as Sollscher's
playing is, I'm stunned at how rich, how deep, how fluid, and how
utterly appropriate the cello performances are.
Is there some music that *should* not be transcribed for guitar?
Sure, but the Cello suites transcribe very nicely. That does not mean
that they are very nicely transcribed. IMO the best way is to move them
up as little as possible and not to add any notes. That way, at least
the music remains Bach. Most of the guitar versions of #1 are
arrangements, not transcriptions.
Dear DaveA, look at Bach's 1st lute suite, and then take a look at
what he did with it when he played it on harpsichord! That's why we
pay good money for well thoughtout, intellegent, informed,
transcriptions.
Bach's arrangement of the 5th cello suite for example for lute?
Need I say more.
MT
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of
practice:http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html::::Youcan play the
cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises.http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html-Hide quoted text -
That's twice in one thread you've picked on harpsichords, Tashi. It's
not nice to pick on mother keyboard.
Also, a RMCG disciplinary committee meeting may need to be conveened
by Che' to address your galactic scale violation of Rule 6. Whether
you did or did not sign onto that convention, makes no matter. And
besides, calling a RMCG poster a "pompous ass" is usually redundant,
at one point or another. :-)
mark
I'll quit picking on harpsichords if you quit picking on French
pussies.
MT
I'll assume harpsichords are going to keep taking it on the chin...

John
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