Discussion:
OT: Baroque interpretation
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Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-21 21:32:36 UTC
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Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?

Alain
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-21 22:04:49 UTC
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Post by Biendoducedodièse
How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Time machine?

Listen to players you like and have a good reputation, study scores
and history, find your way.
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Is improvised ornamentation something possible
Why wouldn't it be?

Andrew
Slogoin
2011-08-21 23:43:29 UTC
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Post by Andrew Schulman
Time machine?
Listen to players you like and have a good reputation, study scores
and history, find your way.
Good answer.
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Is improvised ornamentation something possible
Why wouldn't it be?
Indeed. Bach was not the only performer known for improvising and
what would figured bass be if the performer played "as written"?
m***@gmail.com
2011-08-21 22:17:18 UTC
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Post by Biendoducedodièse
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
In principle: you cannot ever achieve a historical performance without
a historic audience. Listeners of Dowland in his time, had never heard
the music of Beethoven or Stravinsky. The best you can do is this:

http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/Performance/performa-eng.htm

While the subject is 19th century music, the principles would apply
equally well to music of earlier times.

MO.
Slogoin
2011-08-21 23:44:15 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/Performance/performa-eng.htm
Good stuff. Thanks.
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 05:59:07 UTC
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"There are several areas of performance practice which need to be examined in detail, when we try to find out what the composers themselves had to say—tempi, proper dynamics, ornamentation, correct phrasing, rhythmical coherence, distribution of accents, fingering and other subjects which form the basis of a musical performance."

Excellent article Matanya.

This except totally reflects the direction I am trying to investigate. (No ... it does not mean or even imply when I say this that I am on the right track ...)

Alain
Che
2011-08-22 06:10:23 UTC
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Post by Biendoducedodièse
"There are several areas of performance practice which need to be examined in detail, when we try to find out what the composers themselves had to say—tempi, proper dynamics, ornamentation, correct phrasing, rhythmical coherence, distribution of accents, fingering and other subjects which form the basis of a musical performance."
Didn't you understand what Learnwell wrote:

"Time is limited and if there is a D# somewhere that should be
an Eb, or a quarter note that should be a half, either I've found it
on
my own or have better uses for my time than to seriously research it.
Guitarists can get too caught up sometimes in our 'luminaries' who
really are only third rate composers in the grand scheme of things."
dsi1
2011-08-21 22:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
My guess is that you'd play it like clockwork and give equal weight to
all the notes. A performance like that would probably lack some appeal
to today's audience but it would probably be historical. Of course,
guitarists today aren't taught to give each note the same value. That's
the breaks.
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-22 00:41:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
My guess is that you'd play it like clockwork and give equal weight to
all the notes. A performance like that would probably lack some appeal
to today's audience but it would probably be historical. Of course,
guitarists today aren't taught to give each note the same value. That's
the breaks.
Do a search on "notes inégales".

Then let's talk.

Andrew
dsi1
2011-08-22 02:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by dsi1
My guess is that you'd play it like clockwork and give equal weight to
all the notes. A performance like that would probably lack some appeal
to today's audience but it would probably be historical. Of course,
guitarists today aren't taught to give each note the same value. That's
the breaks.
Do a search on "notes inégales".
Then let's talk.
Andrew
Damn, why do I gotta do reading assignments? I hate that crap! Anyway,
you're saying that the musician had some leeway with the rhythm too.
That's fine but is that how baroque music is taught these days? I sure
wish that it was because most players of the music today just play it
straight and boring.
wollybird
2011-08-22 03:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by dsi1
My guess is that you'd play it like clockwork and give equal weight to
all the notes. A performance like that would probably lack some appeal
to today's audience but it would probably be historical. Of course,
guitarists today aren't taught to give each note the same value. That's
the breaks.
Do a search on "notes inégales".
Then let's talk.
Andrew
Damn, why do I gotta do reading assignments? I hate that crap! Anyway,
you're saying that the musician had some leeway with the rhythm too.
That's fine but is that how baroque music is taught these days? I sure
wish that it was because most players of the music today just play it
straight and boring.
I was told to "lay back on the beat" in certian situations
dsi1
2011-08-22 03:31:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by wollybird
Post by dsi1
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by dsi1
My guess is that you'd play it like clockwork and give equal weight to
all the notes. A performance like that would probably lack some appeal
to today's audience but it would probably be historical. Of course,
guitarists today aren't taught to give each note the same value. That's
the breaks.
Do a search on "notes inégales".
Then let's talk.
Andrew
Damn, why do I gotta do reading assignments? I hate that crap! Anyway,
you're saying that the musician had some leeway with the rhythm too.
That's fine but is that how baroque music is taught these days? I sure
wish that it was because most players of the music today just play it
straight and boring.
I was told to "lay back on the beat" in certian situations
Sounds like the kind of advice you'd get from some guy named "Rufus"
between puffs of reefer rather than your old music teacher. :-)

I never got such advice. Maybe it all could have turned out differently
had I did... nah. :-)
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-22 03:40:42 UTC
Permalink
OK guys, here's the fun part. Know the difference between Mississippi
blues,Kansas City blues, Chicago blues, and New York City blues?

Know the difference between early 17th century Italian Baroque, late
17th century German Baroque, early 18th century Italian Baroque, etc.?

Get what I'm saying?

Of course you do, you are very smart guys! There are all kinds of
general stylistic things, and all kinds of individual stylistic
things. Tons of stuff to learn, more than any one person can absorb.

So - listen, read, study, play a lot. It's a nice way to kill time.

Discuss.

Andrew
Slogoin
2011-08-22 03:51:56 UTC
Permalink
OK guys, here's the fun part.  Know the difference between Mississippi
blues,Kansas City blues, Chicago blues, and New York City blues?
Know the difference between early 17th century Italian Baroque, late
17th century German Baroque, early 18th century Italian Baroque, etc.?
Get what I'm saying?
Of course you do, you are very smart guys!  There are all kinds of
general stylistic things, and all kinds of individual stylistic
things.  Tons of stuff to learn, more than any one person can absorb.
So - listen, read, study, play a lot.  It's a nice way to kill time.
Discuss.
Thank you.
Che
2011-08-22 04:44:00 UTC
Permalink
OK guys, here's the fun part.  Know the difference between Mississippi
blues,Kansas City blues, Chicago blues, and New York City blues?
Know the difference between early 17th century Italian Baroque, late
17th century German Baroque, early 18th century Italian Baroque, etc.?
Get what I'm saying?<
What the hell, you forgot the Texas Blues. . . Leadbelly and SRV are
turning over in their graves.
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-22 16:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
What the hell, you forgot the Texas Blues. . . Leadbelly and SRV are
turning over in their graves.
OMG!!! You're right! Actually, my old mentor, Richard Dyer-Bennet,
knew Leadbelly pretty well, lots of stories.

Andrew
Slogoin
2011-08-22 04:58:06 UTC
Permalink
OK guys, here's the fun part.  Know the difference between Mississippi
blues,Kansas City blues, Chicago blues, and New York City blues?
This is one my all time favorite guitarist/composer/performers



This guy combines so many styles. I love this stuff and the whole
set of musical styles that influenced him.

I think one of the keys to style is movement, gesture, and feeling
it in your whole body. That's why dancing any style with someone who
grew up with it really helps get it.
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 06:17:11 UTC
Permalink
there is definitely a happy caribean feel in that music! [;o)
Good find!

Alain
Slogoin
2011-08-22 07:22:37 UTC
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Post by Biendoducedodièse
there is definitely a happy caribean feel in that music! [;o)
Good find!
Alain
I was blown away by him when I first heard him.

Some of this sounds almost like rap, like at the end:



The rhythms are addictive. In one of the comments a guy says he's in
a wheelchair but was twirling around the room as he listened. I just
can't imagine listening to this without moving.