Discussion:
OT: Baroque interpretation
(too old to reply)
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-21 21:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?

Alain
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-21 22:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Time machine?

Listen to players you like and have a good reputation, study scores
and history, find your way.
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Is improvised ornamentation something possible
Why wouldn't it be?

Andrew
Slogoin
2011-08-21 23:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Time machine?
Listen to players you like and have a good reputation, study scores
and history, find your way.
Good answer.
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Is improvised ornamentation something possible
Why wouldn't it be?
Indeed. Bach was not the only performer known for improvising and
what would figured bass be if the performer played "as written"?
m***@gmail.com
2011-08-21 22:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
In principle: you cannot ever achieve a historical performance without
a historic audience. Listeners of Dowland in his time, had never heard
the music of Beethoven or Stravinsky. The best you can do is this:

http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/Performance/performa-eng.htm

While the subject is 19th century music, the principles would apply
equally well to music of earlier times.

MO.
Slogoin
2011-08-21 23:44:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/Performance/performa-eng.htm
Good stuff. Thanks.
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 05:59:07 UTC
Permalink
"There are several areas of performance practice which need to be examined in detail, when we try to find out what the composers themselves had to say—tempi, proper dynamics, ornamentation, correct phrasing, rhythmical coherence, distribution of accents, fingering and other subjects which form the basis of a musical performance."

Excellent article Matanya.

This except totally reflects the direction I am trying to investigate. (No ... it does not mean or even imply when I say this that I am on the right track ...)

Alain
Che
2011-08-22 06:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
"There are several areas of performance practice which need to be examined in detail, when we try to find out what the composers themselves had to say—tempi, proper dynamics, ornamentation, correct phrasing, rhythmical coherence, distribution of accents, fingering and other subjects which form the basis of a musical performance."
Didn't you understand what Learnwell wrote:

"Time is limited and if there is a D# somewhere that should be
an Eb, or a quarter note that should be a half, either I've found it
on
my own or have better uses for my time than to seriously research it.
Guitarists can get too caught up sometimes in our 'luminaries' who
really are only third rate composers in the grand scheme of things."
dsi1
2011-08-21 22:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
My guess is that you'd play it like clockwork and give equal weight to
all the notes. A performance like that would probably lack some appeal
to today's audience but it would probably be historical. Of course,
guitarists today aren't taught to give each note the same value. That's
the breaks.
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-22 00:41:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
My guess is that you'd play it like clockwork and give equal weight to
all the notes. A performance like that would probably lack some appeal
to today's audience but it would probably be historical. Of course,
guitarists today aren't taught to give each note the same value. That's
the breaks.
Do a search on "notes inégales".

Then let's talk.

Andrew
dsi1
2011-08-22 02:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by dsi1
My guess is that you'd play it like clockwork and give equal weight to
all the notes. A performance like that would probably lack some appeal
to today's audience but it would probably be historical. Of course,
guitarists today aren't taught to give each note the same value. That's
the breaks.
Do a search on "notes inégales".
Then let's talk.
Andrew
Damn, why do I gotta do reading assignments? I hate that crap! Anyway,
you're saying that the musician had some leeway with the rhythm too.
That's fine but is that how baroque music is taught these days? I sure
wish that it was because most players of the music today just play it
straight and boring.
wollybird
2011-08-22 03:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by dsi1
My guess is that you'd play it like clockwork and give equal weight to
all the notes. A performance like that would probably lack some appeal
to today's audience but it would probably be historical. Of course,
guitarists today aren't taught to give each note the same value. That's
the breaks.
Do a search on "notes inégales".
Then let's talk.
Andrew
Damn, why do I gotta do reading assignments? I hate that crap! Anyway,
you're saying that the musician had some leeway with the rhythm too.
That's fine but is that how baroque music is taught these days? I sure
wish that it was because most players of the music today just play it
straight and boring.
I was told to "lay back on the beat" in certian situations
dsi1
2011-08-22 03:31:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by wollybird
Post by dsi1
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by dsi1
My guess is that you'd play it like clockwork and give equal weight to
all the notes. A performance like that would probably lack some appeal
to today's audience but it would probably be historical. Of course,
guitarists today aren't taught to give each note the same value. That's
the breaks.
Do a search on "notes inégales".
Then let's talk.
Andrew
Damn, why do I gotta do reading assignments? I hate that crap! Anyway,
you're saying that the musician had some leeway with the rhythm too.
That's fine but is that how baroque music is taught these days? I sure
wish that it was because most players of the music today just play it
straight and boring.
I was told to "lay back on the beat" in certian situations
Sounds like the kind of advice you'd get from some guy named "Rufus"
between puffs of reefer rather than your old music teacher. :-)

I never got such advice. Maybe it all could have turned out differently
had I did... nah. :-)
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-22 03:40:42 UTC
Permalink
OK guys, here's the fun part. Know the difference between Mississippi
blues,Kansas City blues, Chicago blues, and New York City blues?

Know the difference between early 17th century Italian Baroque, late
17th century German Baroque, early 18th century Italian Baroque, etc.?

Get what I'm saying?

Of course you do, you are very smart guys! There are all kinds of
general stylistic things, and all kinds of individual stylistic
things. Tons of stuff to learn, more than any one person can absorb.

So - listen, read, study, play a lot. It's a nice way to kill time.

Discuss.

Andrew
Slogoin
2011-08-22 03:51:56 UTC
Permalink
OK guys, here's the fun part.  Know the difference between Mississippi
blues,Kansas City blues, Chicago blues, and New York City blues?
Know the difference between early 17th century Italian Baroque, late
17th century German Baroque, early 18th century Italian Baroque, etc.?
Get what I'm saying?
Of course you do, you are very smart guys!  There are all kinds of
general stylistic things, and all kinds of individual stylistic
things.  Tons of stuff to learn, more than any one person can absorb.
So - listen, read, study, play a lot.  It's a nice way to kill time.
Discuss.
Thank you.
Che
2011-08-22 04:44:00 UTC
Permalink
OK guys, here's the fun part.  Know the difference between Mississippi
blues,Kansas City blues, Chicago blues, and New York City blues?
Know the difference between early 17th century Italian Baroque, late
17th century German Baroque, early 18th century Italian Baroque, etc.?
Get what I'm saying?<
What the hell, you forgot the Texas Blues. . . Leadbelly and SRV are
turning over in their graves.
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-22 16:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
What the hell, you forgot the Texas Blues. . . Leadbelly and SRV are
turning over in their graves.
OMG!!! You're right! Actually, my old mentor, Richard Dyer-Bennet,
knew Leadbelly pretty well, lots of stories.

Andrew
Slogoin
2011-08-22 04:58:06 UTC
Permalink
OK guys, here's the fun part.  Know the difference between Mississippi
blues,Kansas City blues, Chicago blues, and New York City blues?
This is one my all time favorite guitarist/composer/performers



This guy combines so many styles. I love this stuff and the whole
set of musical styles that influenced him.

I think one of the keys to style is movement, gesture, and feeling
it in your whole body. That's why dancing any style with someone who
grew up with it really helps get it.
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 06:17:11 UTC
Permalink
there is definitely a happy caribean feel in that music! [;o)
Good find!

Alain
Slogoin
2011-08-22 07:22:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
there is definitely a happy caribean feel in that music! [;o)
Good find!
Alain
I was blown away by him when I first heard him.

Some of this sounds almost like rap, like at the end:



The rhythms are addictive. In one of the comments a guy says he's in
a wheelchair but was twirling around the room as he listened. I just
can't imagine listening to this without moving.
dsi1
2011-08-22 05:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
OK guys, here's the fun part. Know the difference between Mississippi
blues,Kansas City blues, Chicago blues, and New York City blues?
I used to be a Taj Mahal fan so I could probably point out Mississippi
and country blues. Chicago blues of course. Kansas City maybe but what
the heck is NYC Blues?
Post by Andrew Schulman
Know the difference between early 17th century Italian Baroque, late
17th century German Baroque, early 18th century Italian Baroque, etc.?
I might be able to tell the difference between these styles but I don't
see much point in it other than being able to claim that you can
identify baroque styles. I'd rather leave those accolades to the folks
that dig the music. If it involves having to listen to these styles,
then I'd say that was too much work.
Post by Andrew Schulman
Get what I'm saying?
Of course you do, you are very smart guys! There are all kinds of
general stylistic things, and all kinds of individual stylistic
things. Tons of stuff to learn, more than any one person can absorb.
So - listen, read, study, play a lot. It's a nice way to kill time.
Killing time doesn't begin to describe it, you're murdering time,
dismembering it, and then burying it in concrete!
Post by Andrew Schulman
Discuss.
Andrew
Che
2011-08-22 05:14:57 UTC
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Kansas City maybe but what the heck is NYC Blues?<
In Andy's dreams like Texas Style NYC Barbie-Q! Here's the real deal,
Texas Blues.


Slogoin
2011-08-22 05:28:12 UTC
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Post by Che
In Andy's dreams like Texas Style NYC Barbie-Q!
Yeah, neither is the real thing.
Che
2011-08-22 05:45:06 UTC
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Post by Che
In Andy's dreams like Texas Style NYC Barbie-Q!
  Yeah, neither is the real thing.<
I am not responsible for what you think.
Slogoin
2011-08-22 05:57:08 UTC
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Post by Che
I am not responsible for what you think.
Buccaneer's don't wear cowboy boots.
Che
2011-08-22 06:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
I am not responsible for what you think.
  Buccaneer's don't wear cowboy boots.
http://texaslesstraveled.com/bucdays.htm

They wear what-ever-the-fuck they want
Slogoin
2011-08-22 06:12:51 UTC
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Post by Che
They wear what-ever-the-fuck they want
Woosh!
Che
2011-08-22 06:20:40 UTC
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Post by Che
They wear what-ever-the-fuck they want
  Woosh!
Spoken like a true butt pirate!
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-22 16:34:27 UTC
Permalink
...but what
the heck is NYC Blues?
Just through that in to be loyal to my home town.
Killing time doesn't begin to describe it, you're murdering time,
dismembering it, and then burying it in concrete!
Very poetic!

Andrew
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 05:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
OK guys, here's the fun part. Know the difference between Mississippi
blues,Kansas City blues, Chicago blues, and New York City blues?
Know the difference between early 17th century Italian Baroque, late
17th century German Baroque, early 18th century Italian Baroque, etc.?
Get what I'm saying?
Of course you do, you are very smart guys! There are all kinds of
general stylistic things, and all kinds of individual stylistic
things. Tons of stuff to learn, more than any one person can absorb.
So - listen, read, study, play a lot. It's a nice way to kill time.
Discuss.
Andrew
Good stuff Andrew, Matanya! First I am surprised that this OT thread is getting so much coverage. And then second, yes I do listen to the best baroque player (always!) (Roberto Barto, Gustav Leonarhdt, Nikolaus Harnoncourt) ... but I would be open to suggestions of players that do an excellent job of rendering the baroque spirit on a modern instrument ... ( ok, ok, I like Glen Gould ... but is he really baroque in his approach? Not that I really care as he is quite unique and still fresh up to this day!)
... coming back to learning through listening ... sometimes I wonder if watching a lot of films would make me become a good actor ...
So knowing the response to that ... I have indeed started reading about it ...
(Ze baroque era of course and what was written back then ... by the erudite of the time ...all well quoted in the (not so recent) book titled "A performer's guide to Baroque Music" by Robert Donington ... a good read, and a good place to start I find (for me anyway)... (again ... open to suggestions here of something more recent that would go in depth into the baroque spirit...)
I guess that my next step would be to talk to a knowledgeable interpreter of baroque music (an opportunity that I might have the good fortune to have in Montreal this December!) ...

Now to the Belouze ...

first, Chicago blues rules!

second but not least ... there was only one and only one Velvet Buldozer in this world and he was the greatest of them all! (The King of the 3 king ... the two other did well though!)

Which gives Mississippi blues the top place in the blues category. (Way ahead of all the other locations ... but Chicago blues rules!) in fact ze velvet buldozer was to the blues what Bach was to the baroque ...

[;o)


Alain
Che
2011-08-22 05:58:07 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 22, 12:31 am, Biendoducedodièse <***@telus.net> wrote:
 
I guess that my next step would be to talk to a knowledgeable interpreter of baroque music (an opportunity that I might have the good fortune to have in Montreal this December!) ...<
Ought to have done that 30 years ago. You don't know Diddly about the
blues, Lil' Frenchy.

I love Montreal. . .and the x-mass lightings along Mount-Royal are
wonderful but it's really, really cold in December!
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 06:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
 
I guess that my next step would be to talk to a knowledgeable interpreter of baroque music (an opportunity that I might have the good fortune to have in Montreal this December!) ...<
Ought to have done that 30 years ago. You don't know Diddly about the
blues, Lil' Frenchy.
I love Montreal. . .and the x-mass lightings along Mount-Royal are
wonderful but it's really, really cold in December!
Not really cold if you are surrounded by a loving family environment.
Stop being so grumpy and negative man! You're killing yourself.

Alain
Che
2011-08-22 06:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
  
I guess that my next step would be to talk to a knowledgeable interpreter of baroque music (an opportunity that I might have the good fortune to have in Montreal this December!) ...<
Ought to have done that 30 years ago. You don't know Diddly about the
blues, Lil' Frenchy.
I love Montreal. . .and the x-mass lightings along Mount-Royal are
wonderful but it's really, really cold in December!
Not really cold if you are surrounded by a loving family environment.<
Never been much of a family man and don't like that blue-nose cold.
Stop being so grumpy and negative man! You're killing yourself.<
This is my personal entertainment I call dummy surfing, Lil' Frenchy.
Slogoin
2011-08-22 06:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
This is my personal entertainment
I call dummy surfing, Lil' Frenchy.
Did you torture animals as a child?
Che
2011-08-22 14:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
This is my personal entertainment
I call dummy surfing, Lil' Frenchy.
  Did you torture animals as a child?
Mostly crustaceans and shellfish, like you, invertebrates lacking a
backbone. In cases with fishes. . . I hooked in the lips and yanked
out of their natural environment to eat. I was the Class Cruel in Cool
School.


Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 16:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
Post by Che
This is my personal entertainment
I call dummy surfing, Lil' Frenchy.
Did you torture animals as a child?
I think it's a form of trolling ... it gets people going, he gets excited and that reinforce the behaviour and it keeps rolling and rolling and growing and growing... there is no end to it until one decide to take charge and stop responding to the childish an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth which is at the base of the entire process... it's that simple, really... but very difficult to apply ... as it is easy to get entangled in the skirmish and to forget to apply this simplest basic wisdom ...

See the freshly fished example : "...like you, invertebrates lacking a
backbone..."

The good news is that we do not have to change him! We just have to change ourselves! We can all make choices ... heu ... Yes! We can! [;o)



Alain
Che
2011-08-22 17:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
The good news is that we do not have to change him! We just have to change ourselves! We can all make choices ... heu ... Yes! We can! [;o)
Alain
Lil Frenchy, how's that Hopey-Changey Thing Working Out for Ya?
Just because I don't give a rat's patootie doesn't mean I don't
understand.
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 17:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Sorry Che ... I do not feel like being on topic today! On topic topics get boring very quickly and to be frank I am not out to change the world, only to change myself. I rather spent the time discussion the off topic subject... much more interesting. Your off topic link of le coq playing his beautiful baroque guitar was very good!

Alain
Che
2011-08-22 17:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Sorry Che ... I do not feel like being on topic today! On topic topics get boring very quickly and to be frank I am not out to change the world, only to change myself. I rather spent the time discussion the off topic subject... much more interesting. Your off topic link of le coq playing his beautiful baroque guitar was very good!
Alain
It so happens I'm writting out a baroque guitar piece at this time. I
indicate the exact manner and fingers to use and what directions the
strums move across the strings to achieve the desired effect for
"clear and incisive timbres".

I'm doing this for someone else. I'll make you a deal. I'll send you
a copy which you can play on Youboob. As soon as you post your
recording I'll have my friend post his on YB. . . In this way you can
discern the difference.

In the alternative you could get Julian Bream's album " The Baroque
Guitar"....and listen. It requires a "svelte" technique.
Slogoin
2011-08-22 17:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
I think it's a form of trolling ...
Of course it is.
Post by Biendoducedodièse
there is no end to it until one decide to
take charge and stop responding to the
childish an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth
Ignoring him won't work s long as his sycophants here continue to
say nothing. They would become targets if they did, as we see from his
treatment of RS. He can't do what he does without help. But, they
won't change either any more than Doug or Wolly will stop.
Post by Biendoducedodièse
The good news is that we do not have to change him!
He won't change.
Post by Biendoducedodièse
We just have to change ourselves!
It won't matter. He'll still go after you and you can see that
ignoring him or even leaving the NG like Tony does not stop him.
Che
2011-08-22 20:09:13 UTC
Permalink
  It won't matter. He'll still go after you and you can see that
ignoring him or even leaving the NG like Tony does not stop him.<
Ever notice, neither of you can resist the urge to pop your prairie
dog heads up and pop off in threads that don't concern you. Exactly,
and then you get all maudlin and $hit when I blow your prairie head
off with a well placed 30-30 round.

Tony is history. After that abject and utterly humiliating "Walk of
Barrios" failure he knew I'd eat him alive.

Deack, the voices in your head are snoring, maybe you should go to
ebay and buy a clue.
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 21:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
Post by Biendoducedodièse
I think it's a form of trolling ...
Of course it is.
Post by Biendoducedodièse
there is no end to it until one decide to
take charge and stop responding to the
childish an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth
Ignoring him won't work s long as his sycophants here continue to
say nothing. They would become targets if they did, as we see from his
treatment of RS. He can't do what he does without help. But, they
won't change either any more than Doug or Wolly will stop.
Post by Biendoducedodièse
The good news is that we do not have to change him!
He won't change.
That is his problem ... not mine.
Post by Slogoin
Post by Biendoducedodièse
We just have to change ourselves!
It won't matter. He'll still go after you and you can see that
ignoring him or even leaving the NG like Tony does not stop him.
I hear you!

Alain
Che
2011-08-22 21:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
  It won't matter. He'll still go after you and you can see that
ignoring him or even leaving the NG like Tony does not stop him.
I hear you!
Alain- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
That's funny since neither of you can hear your own selves. Nor does
it seem able to stay on topic.

What can you say about this:

Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 21:52:05 UTC
Permalink
What we I like the most is a recording of *you* playing!
Then I could say that I have indeed heard you.

Alain

P.S. here is my part of the deal for your deal ...

1) you grant us within the next 3 weeks of your superb versions of Bitcheo feo and el sueno de la munequita

2) you learn French (you have no more than a year to do so)

then I might consider your offer to receive your baroque transcription and comply to your terms of the deal and record it in the mini GFA maner that you have proposed.
Slogoin
2011-08-22 23:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
That is his problem ... not mine.
Hopefully it stays that way.
Post by Biendoducedodièse
I hear you!
Too bad some people can't hear what you hear. The male ego is so
freaking sensitive.... sigh.

I do find it sad that you were the only one to comment on Joseph
Spence.

On topic, have fun going Baroque. :-)
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 23:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Ok! I'll throw a little Roccoco here and there too! [;o)
For Spence ... maybe it's because I instantly recognized his tropicalism ... and others maybe do not care so much for this trait in music? Don't know?
I enjoyed the first piece you posted much so!

Alain
Slogoin
2011-08-23 00:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
For Spence ... maybe it's because I instantly
recognized his tropicalism ... and others maybe
do not care so much for this trait in music? Don't know?
I enjoyed the first piece you posted much so!
Yeah, the troll who claims to be a "tropical" guitarist didn't get
it. When Bob mentioned his name in 2000... nada too.

What really interests me is how his voice works with the music. It's
like seeing inside his head where there is a whole band playing and
he's clipping off bits. The rhythms are just so subtle. There were
some videos of guys playing his tunes that completely lack that feel.

His stuff with the Pinders is also amazing.

I think many CG students in the US tend think CG music is about
lush tones and don't even practice rhtyhms unless they get into
flamenco or pop styles. So many play like flat beer :-)
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 16:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
Post by Che
  
I guess that my next step would be to talk to a knowledgeable interpreter of baroque music (an opportunity that I might have the good fortune to have in Montreal this December!) ...<
Ought to have done that 30 years ago. You don't know Diddly about the
blues, Lil' Frenchy.
I love Montreal. . .and the x-mass lightings along Mount-Royal are
wonderful but it's really, really cold in December!
Not really cold if you are surrounded by a loving family environment.<
Never been much of a family man and don't like that blue-nose cold.
That would change your perspective on cold weather for sure!
Aren't U the guy who call himself among other titles the Tropical guitarist?
Post by Che
Stop being so grumpy and negative man! You're killing yourself.<
This is my personal entertainment I call dummy surfing, Lil' Frenchy.
I like what Horton keep saying about Lil' people!

A good friend of yours is also very found of name calling, look back in the archive around this time, a victorious tread on 911 conspiracy, man! the toxic level reader was over the top!
Slogoin
2011-08-22 06:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Now to the Belouze ...
first, Chicago blues rules!
Memphis blues is fun too.


There are even more flavors including the guy I just posted about.
Don't know why more people don't know him but lots of people know
tunes he wrote. Here's another one of him doing one of the best
versions of this tune I've heard:



Whataya think... Calypso Blues?
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 06:22:12 UTC
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I like the grumph and oumph when he sings! Remind me of Popeye's spirit!

Good stuff!

Alain
Slogoin
2011-08-22 06:37:45 UTC
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Post by Biendoducedodièse
I like the grumph and oumph when he sings! Remind me of Popeye's spirit!
Good stuff!
Alain
Ry Cooder and Taj Mahal among others say he influenced them and they
recorded some of his tunes. I've been listening to his music for a
while along with other he played with. Unfortunately the music
business ripped off a lot of guys like him. To most of the world
Caribbean music is Reggae so the locals have to play Reggae tunes for
the tourist now.
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-22 16:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
So knowing the response to that ... I have indeed started reading about it ...
A very useful book to me for getting a sense of Bach's time, his
middle years, was this:

http://www.amazon.com/Peter-Great-His-Life-World/dp/0345298063

Andrew
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 16:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Andrew!

So many books to read! So many films to watch! So many pieces to learn!

Have you seen Woody Allen last film?

Alain
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-22 17:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Have you seen Woody Allen last film?
No, did you like it?

Andrew
dsi1
2011-08-22 19:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Have you seen Woody Allen last film?
No, did you like it?
Andrew
Well - so much for hometown loyalty. OTOH, he's enamored with Europe at
the moment it seems. Does Woody no longer love NY and vice-versa? Say it
ain't so!

OTOH, the last Woody Allen film I saw was Sweet and Lowdown which was
about the second greatest jazz guitar player in the world and that was
over a decade ago.


Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 21:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Well ... I think he is interested in the American writers of the time that were back then enamored with Paris (and more ... Allen`s film always look simple on the surface but have many layers which are a pleasure to decipher). Paris is an easy city to fall in love with!
Men when I think that I was there last years! (we did walk in many of these places that are shown in the film!)
Of course our intention is to go back! ... always ...(:o)

Alain
Andrew Schulman
2011-08-23 01:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
OTOH, the last Woody Allen film I saw was Sweet and Lowdown which was
about the second greatest jazz guitar player in the world and that was
over a decade ago.
http://youtu.be/YCqd2OX0hQs
With guitar solos played by the great Howard Alden. Howard plays
often at a place called Bella Luna on Columbus Ave (at 88th St), a
short walk from Alouette. We share a good number of regulars. Good
neighborhood for live music, still.

Andrew
dsi1
2011-08-23 01:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by dsi1
OTOH, the last Woody Allen film I saw was Sweet and Lowdown which was
about the second greatest jazz guitar player in the world and that was
over a decade ago.
http://youtu.be/YCqd2OX0hQs
With guitar solos played by the great Howard Alden. Howard plays
often at a place called Bella Luna on Columbus Ave (at 88th St), a
short walk from Alouette. We share a good number of regulars. Good
neighborhood for live music, still.
Andrew
Attempting to sound like the second-best jazz guitarist in the world
seems like a heck of a tough gig.
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-23 02:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Who is the first?

Did not Howard Alden (played and study with GV Eps?)
(If I remember well he had a moustache bach then ...)

Alain
dsi1
2011-08-23 02:30:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Who is the first?
Did not Howard Alden (played and study with GV Eps?)
(If I remember well he had a moustache bach then ...)
Alain
That would be this guy. Oddly enough, Mr. Alden can even play like the
world's greatest jazz guitarist too. Zoot alores!


Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-23 03:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Charlie Christian would have been among the best if he hadn't had the unfortunate destiny of dying so young (at age 23 ...)

Jam'ing at the Mintons (after playing is regular gigs with the Benny Goodman band! Must have been around 2 Am!)



Haaa ... Django ... Le style manouche! Bireli Lagrène is one of the holder of the torch of this here to stay style gitan! (So dear to the French!)



You probably have seen the film (cartoon) the triplets of Belleville! (Hilarious!)



Alain
dsi1
2011-08-23 07:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Charlie Christian would have been among the best if he hadn't had the unfortunate destiny of dying so young (at age 23 ...)
Jam'ing at the Mintons (after playing is regular gigs with the Benny Goodman band! Must have been around 2 Am!)
http://youtu.be/Ce9Jtl9D6FQ
Haaa ... Django ... Le style manouche! Bireli Lagrène is one of the holder of the torch of this here to stay style gitan! (So dear to the French!)
http://youtu.be/2yfQN8-tVlQ
You probably have seen the film (cartoon) the triplets of Belleville! (Hilarious!)
http://youtu.be/0wstA1AXH5M
Alain
The thirties were a pretty swinging time. Here's the Stolen Sweets doing
the Boswell Sister's hot version of that corny old tune "Shuffle Off to
Buffalo." It's virtually unrecognizable from the original which is a
good thing in my book.


Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-23 16:46:21 UTC
Permalink
At 3:22 ... that's were they got me! [;o)

Alain
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 20:30:48 UTC
Permalink
yes! I like quirky Woody. [;o)

And the musique by Sidney Bechet at the beginning is superb and fit the film spirit like a glove. (Si tu vois ma mère.)



Alain
Che
2011-08-22 04:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Damn, why do I gotta do reading assignments? I hate that crap! Anyway,
you're saying that the musician had some leeway with the rhythm too.
That's fine but is that how baroque music is taught these days? I sure
wish that it was because most players of the music today just play it
straight and boring.<

dsi1
2011-08-22 05:19:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che
Post by dsi1
Damn, why do I gotta do reading assignments? I hate that crap! Anyway,
you're saying that the musician had some leeway with the rhythm too.
That's fine but is that how baroque music is taught these days? I sure
wish that it was because most players of the music today just play it
straight and boring.<
http://youtu.be/T-FOjeFy2LA
Thanks Doc. If only more baroque music would be played with such spirit,
I wouldn't feel like blowing my brains out whenever someone pulls out a
lute or guitar or whatever the heck that is and starts playing baroque.
Of course, I've been guilty of making other people wish they could blow
out their brains too. What goes around comes around. :-)

I've got some enchiladas in the oven as I type. You'd probably think
that my attempt at 'mesican food was pretty funny. As of yet, I haven't
figured out the right set of circumstances which would allow me to have
real Mexican food prepared in my home by a real Mexican. Near as I can
figure it would mean that at least 2 people have to die first - neither
of them me. That's the breaks. :-)
Che
2011-08-22 06:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
Post by Che
Post by dsi1
Damn, why do I gotta do reading assignments? I hate that crap! Anyway,
you're saying that the musician had some leeway with the rhythm too.
That's fine but is that how baroque music is taught these days? I sure
wish that it was because most players of the music today just play it
straight and boring.<
http://youtu.be/T-FOjeFy2LA
Thanks Doc. If only more baroque music would be played with such spirit,
I wouldn't feel like blowing my brains out whenever someone pulls out a
lute or guitar or whatever the heck that is and starts playing baroque.
Of course, I've been guilty of making other people wish they could blow
out their brains too. What goes around comes around. :-)
I've got some enchiladas in the oven as I type. You'd probably think
that my attempt at 'mesican food was pretty funny. As of yet, I haven't
figured out the right set of circumstances which would allow me to have
real Mexican food prepared in my home by a real Mexican. Near as I can
figure it would mean that at least 2 people have to die first - neither
of them me. That's the breaks. :-)
More about enchiladas later. I'm just dummy surfing right now. Need
my dummy fix! :-)
John Nguyen
2011-08-21 23:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
I don't recall the source, but I've read it somewhere that Baroque
music had a lot of room for freedom/leeway/attitude in terms of
ornamentation and embellishment. That's when one musician showing off
skills to another. The original music may seem simple and rigid, but
it's ony a freamwork for indivual intepretation. You music scholars
here please help me out here by confirming/denying it before I blow
more hot air.

Joihn
dsi1
2011-08-21 23:34:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
I don't recall the source, but I've read it somewhere that Baroque
music had a lot of room for freedom/leeway/attitude in terms of
ornamentation and embellishment. That's when one musician showing off
skills to another. The original music may seem simple and rigid, but
it's ony a freamwork for indivual intepretation. You music scholars
here please help me out here by confirming/denying it before I blow
more hot air.
Joihn
I think that you're right about this although I don't know where I got
this notion either. It's probably because they seemed to spend a lot of
time on this in their musical notations and notes. My guess is that the
best players of the day did some pretty off-the-wall stuff by way of
ornamentation and embellishment and we'd still dig it. Of course, the
same thing is happening today. The best guitarists of our times (mostly
steel-string players) have their own little signature moves that we like
to listen for and love.
Slogoin
2011-08-21 23:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
The best guitarists of our times (mostly
steel-string players)
LOL!
dsi1
2011-08-22 01:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsi1
The best guitarists of our times (mostly
steel-string players)
LOL!
To clarify - I'm not saying the the best guitarists of our times are
steel-string guitarists, just that they're more likely to develop a
style of their own. Hopefully, this clears up any misunderstanding. I'm
not going to touch the subject of who are the best guitarists of our
time. :-)
Slogoin
2011-08-21 23:52:33 UTC
Permalink
You music scholars here please help me out
here by confirming/denying it before I blow
more hot air.
You don't need a scholar. It's all over the web. Whole parts were
left up to the performers and there are a number of books on Baroque
ornamentation. Stanley's Bach Cello book has some good stuff if you
haven't read it.
John J van Gool, Luthier
2011-08-22 16:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Playing on a baroque guitar perhaps?



John J. van Gool, luthier
http://www.lutherie-van-gool.nl/
"Biendoducedodi�se" schreef in bericht news:493501dd-81ad-4550-8a2e-***@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com...

Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned on it's
turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the process of
being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we could go of a
tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on
the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented
instrument? How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are
the things we can do to come closer to it?

Alain
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 17:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by John J van Gool, Luthier
Playing on a baroque guitar perhaps?
That would definitely help to match the sound to its music era ... but what was that sound?

Donington writes: (a) perhaps the most elusive of our practical problems is baroque interpretation, and perhaps the most crucial for the entire effect, is the actual sound in which the music is to be produced.

(b) Who can describe a sound in music? We can hardly say more than that there seems to have been a preference for clear and incisive timbres rather than for thick and heavy timbres.
This impression is confirmed by the acoustic features of instruments surviving in original condition surviving from the baroque period. It is still more strongly confirmed by the musical consequences. The surest way, for example, to make Hamdel dull is to perform his music in ehat used to be thought the Handelian maner, and sometimes still is: weighty; pompous; relying more on force than subtlety.

in the two next chapters of the book he discuss the Choice of instrument (a performer's choice) and the Use of istruments (as important as choice).

Alain
Robertus
2011-08-23 13:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by John J van Gool, Luthier
Playing on a baroque guitar perhaps?
John J. van Gool, luthierhttp://www.lutherie-van-gool.nl/
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned on it's
turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the process of
being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we could go of a
tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on
the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented
instrument? How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are
the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
Quantz..."On Playing the Flute" is a staple in baroque lute circles.
It is often quoted
in lute classes on the baroque form. Available on Amazon for cheap.

Robert
Slogoin
2011-08-23 15:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Quantz..."On Playing the Flute"  is a staple in baroque lute circles.
It is often quoted in lute classes on the baroque form.
Not to mention flute players. :-)
Robertus
2011-08-23 16:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Quantz..."On Playing the Flute"  is a staple in baroque lute circles.
It is often quoted in lute classes on the baroque form.
  Not to mention flute players. :-)
Flute , lute , voice of guitar, baroque style is best learned from
those who were there and wrote about it.
Have you read Quantz? It's not just for flute, you know.

Robertus
Slogoin
2011-08-23 17:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robertus
Flute , lute , voice of guitar, baroque
style is best learned from
those who were there and wrote about it.
Have you read Quantz?
Yes. I played flute for more than a year. My best buddy in school
doubled on sax and flute and played jazz and classical. He went to
Berklee. We played lots of Jobim and others and did some of Laurindo
Almeida's arrangement of gabriel faure's sicilienne. My composition
teacher loved it. She knew the piece, of course, but the arrangement
was new to her. She was a great supported of guitar. I tutored theory
for her classes.

He performed for the OCGC a number of times and was a friend of many
in SoCal. Unfortunately little of the history of SoCal has made it to
the web and history has been slipping away.

My CG teacher knew everybody and so many have been so kind to me who
are no longer here. Jim Smith and I talked not long before his death
about the history and those Segovia Masterclasses where we all seem to
connect. I think I'm getting maudlin and need to stop posting...
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-23 16:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Yes ... and there is lot's of quotes from these two contemporaries in Donington book "a performer's guide" ...

Alain
Steve Freides
2011-08-22 18:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned
on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the
process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we
could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how
do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered
oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical
performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
Why do you want a historically accurate performance? I'm not saying
it's necessarily a bad thing, but neither is it necessarily good,
either. Why do you want it?

-S-
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 21:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned
on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the
process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we
could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how
do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered
oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical
performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
Why do you want a historically accurate performance? I'm not saying
it's necessarily a bad thing, but neither is it necessarily good,
either. Why do you want it?
-S-
Good question. Simply put, to try to get closer to the spirit of baroque interpretation. Will I succeed? Probably not ... but I am sure that I will gain some insight in the process. On the suite I am working on right now ... there are very little chances of a historical accurate performance as my instrument is totally a 21st century guitar and if it was only that ... the arr. I have chosen to play was made at a time when the search for baroque authenticity had not been started yet (I think) ... But researching the style, reading about the what the erudite of the time were saying back then regarding interpretation, ornaments, articulation etc will certainly help ...

Alain
Steve Freides
2011-08-22 23:45:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned
on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in
the process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought
we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ...
how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered
oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical
performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
Why do you want a historically accurate performance? I'm not saying
it's necessarily a bad thing, but neither is it necessarily good,
either. Why do you want it?
-S-
Good question. Simply put, to try to get closer to the spirit of
baroque interpretation. Will I succeed? Probably not ... but I am
sure that I will gain some insight in the process. On the suite I am
working on right now ... there are very little chances of a
historical accurate performance as my instrument is totally a 21st
century guitar and if it was only that ... the arr. I have chosen
to play was made at a time when the search for baroque authenticity
had not been started yet (I think) ... But researching the style,
reading about the what the erudite of the time were saying back then
regarding interpretation, ornaments, articulation etc will certainly
help ...
Alain
Alain, I have to tell you - I've heard so many horrible, miserable,
unmusical, out of tune, lacking any energy, sounded like beer that had
been left with the top off the bottle for a week, "historically
accurate" performances that I generally cringe when I hear the subject
mentioned. It's a nice idea, and there are plenty of valid musical
reasons for wanting to know all you can about what they did back then,
but armed with that knowledge, I would like to think that my first
obligation as a musical performer is to perform, well, musically.

In other words, for me, learn, listen, experiment, but ultimately play
what your gut tells you sounds best.

-S-
Slogoin
2011-08-23 00:14:58 UTC
Permalink
horrible, miserable, unmusical, out of tune,
lacking any energy, sounded like beer that had
been left with the top off the bottle for a week
That was a GREAT invective!
Steve Freides
2011-08-23 12:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slogoin
horrible, miserable, unmusical, out of tune,
lacking any energy, sounded like beer that had
been left with the top off the bottle for a week
That was a GREAT invective!
I did my Master's degree recital in choral conducting with period
instruments - I've never quite gotten over that experience even though
it was 30 years ago or so. Thinking of how the players performed during
my recital is what brought on that invective as much as anything else,
along with some of the <insert invective again> musical performances on
can find these days on YouTube.

This isn't to say, of course, that there aren't fine period practice
performances, but rather that it's just one piece of the puzzle, that's
all.

-S-
Slogoin
2011-08-23 16:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
I did my Master's degree recital in choral
conducting with period instruments -
I've never quite gotten over that experience
even though it was 30 years ago or so.
 Thinking of how the players performed during
my recital is what brought on that invective
as much as anything else, along with some of
the <insert invective again> musical performances on
can find these days on YouTube.
LOL! I can't argue with that.
Post by Steve Freides
This isn't to say, of course, that there aren't
fine period practice performances, but rather that
it's just one piece of the puzzle, that's all.
The puzzle seems to defy boundary but sharing good music with
others... addictive. I really hope it works out as well for you as it
has for me, Andrew and others. The doors to all levels of this world
open if you travel and are willing to talk to everybody and play with
anybody.
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-23 00:56:10 UTC
Permalink
The same could be said of interpretation that draw solely on personal inspiration ...
Please do not interpret this as me saying I am right! What I have come to understand through my reading of the book by Donington is that first we simply do not know what the baroque musician sounded like 300 years ago! We have an approximation of this era through text, music (lots) methods etc. that has been duly investigated by some passionate research made by some passionate musicians, musicologues (oups that's a french word), that wanted to know and bring some light to the confusion that was predominant in the way this music was approach at the opening of the 20th century. We might never know for sure that these scholars found exactly what the musician of that time were doing with their music, what was the amount of emotion and attitude required to play
this composer or this other one. This unknown variable in fact is key to the beauty of the music we search for when we approach any score of music. What is not in the score, but is sometimes implied, embedded in, remain in the realm of the performer's choice!

Donington:

(c) But it may well be the best and realistic question to ask: What broadly might a good baroque performer have made of the written text? (as opposed to (a) what exactly did the composer notate in his written text? (b) what exactly did the composer intend by his written text?

his answer to question (c) is "Somewhere within that broad but not unlimited range of possibilities a good modern performer can find an authentic answer which is not definitive, but individual. It is authentic because it lies within the boundaries of the style."

Alain
Steve Freides
2011-08-23 12:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
The same could be said of interpretation that draw solely on personal inspiration ...
True, but one can no more look at a painting with the same eyes that
first saw it than one can truly recreate a period-correct performance.

The most enlightening aspect of this, to me, is to listen to some of the
earliest recordings from, if memory serves, around 1900. There are a
few things that survive from a violinist (the name Joachim sticks in my
mind, don't know if that's right) who actually knew and had played for
Brahms - the performance practice of a man who knew Brahms, played for
Brahms, and was recorded playing Brahms' music is just horrible by
modern standards - but we think it must have been right for it's time.

And so it goes, and so it goes, and no one really knows.

-S-
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-23 17:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Music interpretation does age!
The parallel drawn with the music of the 30's in this thread can exemplify something ... the existence of a style ... the Manouche style remain (perceptible in its essence)... the sound changes even if they (the performers) try to replicate it as faithfully as possible. In the Bireli Lagrène link I posted, there is a (pentatonic) passage he plays that is totally out of style but ... it works!
What really conts (Imho)is to cultivate the imagination which knows what to do.

Alain
dsi1
2011-08-23 17:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Music interpretation does age!
The parallel drawn with the music of the 30's in this thread can exemplify something ... the existence of a style ... the Manouche style remain (perceptible in its essence)... the sound changes even if they (the performers) try to replicate it as faithfully as possible. In the Bireli Lagrène link I posted, there is a (pentatonic) passage he plays that is totally out of style but ... it works!
What really conts (Imho)is to cultivate the imagination which knows what to do.
Alain
Seeing 30's jazz music with post-war swing dancing is a little strange. :-)

Anyway, the reality is that you'd be fooling yourself to think that you
could play in the true baroque style simply because that was before the
advent of sound recording. Words are not able to convey the essence of a
style to any real depth. You could read all you want about George
Clinton but you're never gonna catch the funk or groove without the
sound. In this case, a single 8-track beats out a stack of books. :-)
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-23 18:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Absolutly! We will never know for sure what is the baroques sounded like! But ... the instruments are telling their stories and they are definitely a big element in the equation ... of the sound of that time.
One just have to listen to Alexandre Lagoya palying the suite l'infidèle and compare it to Roberto Barto to realize that the instrument plays a big role in the
re-transmission of the genre. Piano versus harpsichord ... flute baroque against modern flute ... etc. My initial query was about ornamentation on the guitar and how to get closer to a baroque historical performance.
I think that the most convincing answers have all been pointing towards the choice of a proper instrument, knowledge and discernment of the catalogue of ornamentation, and an understanding of the clues given by the contemporary writers about the baroque style.
Dang! The only thing we can hope for is for an eventual invention of a time machine that would allow us to go back and ... listen and discover the true spirit of that time ... this machine for now remain into the realm of the imagination! (with the necessity in that case to avoid the path of the free for all!)

Alain
dsi1
2011-08-23 20:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Absolutly! We will never know for sure what is the baroques sounded like! But ... the instruments are telling their stories and they are definitely a big element in the equation ... of the sound of that time.
One just have to listen to Alexandre Lagoya palying the suite l'infidèle and compare it to Roberto Barto to realize that the instrument plays a big role in the
re-transmission of the genre. Piano versus harpsichord ... flute baroque against modern flute ... etc. My initial query was about ornamentation on the guitar and how to get closer to a baroque historical performance.
I think that the most convincing answers have all been pointing towards the choice of a proper instrument, knowledge and discernment of the catalogue of ornamentation, and an understanding of the clues given by the contemporary writers about the baroque style.
Dang! The only thing we can hope for is for an eventual invention of a time machine that would allow us to go back and ... listen and discover the true spirit of that time ... this machine for now remain into the realm of the imagination! (with the necessity in that case to avoid the path of the free for all!)
Alain
Learning to play a baroque instrument would probably help give you an
idea of how it must have felt. The harpsichord would probably be the
most illuminating. Alternatively, you could try playing the guitar
giving the exact same stroke and weight to every single note you play.
Sounds like fun in my book!

My guess is that listening to baroque music played on contemporary
instruments is not that that much of a help in achieving baroqueness.
saraband
2011-08-23 11:13:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned
on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the
process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we
could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how
do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered
oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical
performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
Why do you want a historically accurate performance?  I'm not saying
it's necessarily a bad thing, but neither is it necessarily good,
either.  Why do you want it?
-S-
Good question. Simply put, to try to get closer to the spirit of baroque interpretation. Will I succeed? Probably not ... but I am sure that I will gain some insight in the process. On the suite I am working on right now ... there are very little chances of a historical accurate performance as my instrument is totally a 21st century guitar and if it was only that ... the arr. I have chosen   to play was made at a time when the search for baroque authenticity had not been  started yet (I think) ... But researching the style, reading about the what the erudite of the time were saying back then regarding interpretation, ornaments, articulation etc will certainly help ...
Alain  
Contemporary sources might be best, e.g.:
-Quantz "On Playing the Flute"
-C.P.E. Bach "An Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard
Instruments"
daveA
2011-08-22 23:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Of course this is off topic ... but as the economy is getting turned on it's turtle back and that the looooong USA election road is in the process of being paved (obligatory On topic comments) I thought we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented instrument? How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
Alain
Approach it exactly the same as you approach romantic music. It is a
mistake to imitate
a harpsichord or even a lute. Even conductors tend to do that, and it
makes no sense.
Orchestras then took advantage of dynamic resources, although there
were not as many
markings. Guitarists should show off the strong points of their
instrument. Think
orchestra, not harpsichord. That is the path to an authentic
interpretation, because
that's what good musicians always do. Regards, daveA
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 23:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Thanks DaveA. (These are good points ... if we set aside that they do not consider
a baroque spirit ... but maybe you are right ... all it takes is to think orchestra to reach the path to authenticity).
Here is an interpretation of the first cello suite prelude (no slurs!)
that has a lot of spirit and that I kind of like! (Another bathroom recording I guess for the reason of a natural reverb!)

Alain
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-22 23:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Oups ... the link ... forgot it behind ... in my mouse.



Alain
Slogoin
2011-08-23 00:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Oups ... the link ... forgot it behind ... in my mouse.
http://youtu.be/a4t9MHvxbtM
Wonderful! Thanks for this, I will show it to my 8 year old who
wants to be a conductor.
daveA
2011-08-23 18:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Biendoducedodièse
Thanks DaveA. (These are good points ... if we set aside that they do not consider
a baroque spirit ... but maybe you are right ... all it takes is to think orchestra to reach the path to authenticity).  
Here is an interpretation of the first cello suite prelude (no slurs!)  
that has a lot of spirit and that I kind of like! (Another bathroom recording I guess for the reason of a natural reverb!)
Alain
The performance was ok, but it's not Bach. That piece should be played
in la on the guitar, not re. If you
don't have the right notes, you can't even think about authenticity.
Regards, daveA
JonLorPro
2011-08-23 03:57:55 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 21, 5:32 pm, Biendoducedodièse <***@telus.net> wrote:

.>
... I thought we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented instrument?
Yes, it is- with some caveats. The best impression to be conveyed in
a Baroque ornamentation is that it is a decorative filagree tossed off
as an artifact of capricious whimsy on part of the performer, an
impulsive fancy conceived at the moment of delivery- in order to flesh
out the score of what otherwise would be a mere skeleton of a
composition. This in fact was the intention in having left a
manuscript in such a state of seeming incompletion; the performer was
a co-creator with the composer of the presented product, and his
artistry as a performer was adjudged on how well he was able to handle
that partnership. The composer was quite often the performer anyway,
which meant he could render the delivery of his own piece as he liked
to suit his mood. The degree to which a composer would defer such
completion to the moment of his own presentation, or abdicate to some
other performer varied- Bach's pieces are not the best examples of
compositions otherwise bereft of profundity without this involvement,
even though they do provide scope for it.

The ease and freedom with which such spontaneous expression can be
interjected is somewhat curtailed on guitar as compared with keyboard
instruments. On keyboard, both hands operate independently, so if one
hand is playing a single line, it is able to indulge on its own in
elaborate ornamentation inspired of an instant without compromising
the texture sustained in the other hand. On guitar or lute, both
hands are tied together, and usually neither is disencumbered of the
simulteneity of the entire texture- so often when some neat idea
occurs to the performer, the left hand has some other damn thing it
has to do at the same time which makes it difficult.

This doesn't mean it can't be done- but, though one can attain to a
level at which such stuff can be thrown in, there is also a lot of
necessitated planning ahead, and deliberate inclusion of ornaments
which are preconceived, and then practiced so as to give the _illusion­
_ of spontaneity when performed. This way, one can make the same sort
of impression that keyboard players are more easily able---unless---
wait a minute! Do you suppose that keyboard players have _also_ been
practicing their ornamentation ahead of time all along? Why- those
sneaky bastards!
How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
That is a vexed question. There a lot of problems with coming to a
historical performance. One can listen, absorb, read- and the in the
end do what you like. My impression of stylistically cataloged
ornamentation (after typically cursory study that is not to be equated
with that of a scholar in the field), is that whatever you decide to
do, there is some name which you can call it. But just because what
you decide to do has an entry in the catalog doesn't mean that it will
inevitably fit in. So, you still have to make your own decision.

Here is an example- I like a some of what this guy does, or did in
this performance, and then there are a couple of places where I kinda
wish he'd done something different:

http://tinyurl.com/3hzxoeh

Many will recognize that the piece is actually three seperate pieces
that have been munched together as one, the first three from Noad's
"Baroque Guitar" anthology- an anonymous minuet and sarabande, a
minuet by Falkenhagen transcribed into the same key, ending with a
reprise of the first minuet. The performer in this case is me- so I am
free to make such criticsms as I have above. You guys are free to
make any such criticisms as may be forthcoming because you are _not_
me, and there is no reason for you to be at all solicitous either of
my sensibilities or my sensitivities. The tempo is somewhat brisk
for a minuet, even more so for a sarabande, so. for that, and for the
instrument, historicity is out the window right off the bat. But you
can still get a sense as to how well the ornamentation fits, or
doesn't, as the case may be. For a much more adept exemplar, try some
David Russell- he's pretty good at that stuff..
Slogoin
2011-08-23 04:28:41 UTC
Permalink
.>
... I thought we could go of a tangent and talk about Baroque interpretation ... how do you approach it on the guitar?
Is improvised ornamentation something possible on this so fingered oriented instrument?
Yes, it is- with some caveats.  The best impression to be conveyed in
a Baroque ornamentation is that it is a decorative filagree tossed off
as an artifact of capricious whimsy on part of the performer, an
impulsive fancy conceived at the moment of delivery- in order to flesh
out the score of what otherwise would be a mere skeleton of a
composition. This in fact was the intention in having left a
manuscript in such a state of seeming incompletion; the performer was
a co-creator with the composer of the presented product, and his
artistry as a performer was adjudged on how well he was able to handle
that partnership. The composer was quite often the performer anyway,
which meant he could render the delivery of his own piece as he liked
to suit his mood.  The degree to which a composer would defer such
completion to the moment of his own presentation, or abdicate to some
other performer varied- Bach's pieces are not the best examples of
compositions otherwise bereft of profundity without this involvement,
even though they do provide scope for it.
The ease and freedom with which such spontaneous expression can be
interjected is somewhat curtailed on guitar as compared with keyboard
instruments.  On keyboard, both hands operate independently, so if one
hand is playing a single line, it is able to indulge on its own in
elaborate ornamentation inspired of an instant without compromising
the texture sustained in the other hand.  On guitar or lute, both
hands are tied together, and usually neither is disencumbered of the
simulteneity of the entire texture- so often when some neat idea
occurs to the performer, the left hand has some other damn thing it
has to do at the same time which makes it difficult.
This doesn't mean it can't be done- but, though one can attain to a
level at which such stuff can be thrown in,  there is also a lot of
necessitated planning ahead, and deliberate inclusion of ornaments
which are preconceived, and then practiced so as to give the _illusion­
_ of spontaneity when performed.  This way, one can make the same sort
of impression that keyboard players are more easily able---unless---
wait a minute! Do you suppose that keyboard players have _also_ been
practicing their ornamentation  ahead of time all along?  Why- those
sneaky bastards!
How close can we come to a historical performance, and what are the things we can do to come closer to it?
That is a vexed question. There a lot of problems with coming to a
historical performance. One can listen, absorb, read- and the in the
end do what you like.  My impression of stylistically cataloged
ornamentation (after typically cursory study that is not to be equated
with that of a scholar in the field),  is that whatever you decide to
do, there is some name which you can call it. But just because what
you decide to do has an entry in the catalog doesn't mean that it will
inevitably fit in.  So, you still have to make your own decision.
Here is an example-  I like a some of what this guy does, or did in
this performance, and then there are a couple of places where I kinda
http://tinyurl.com/3hzxoeh
Many will recognize that the piece is actually three seperate pieces
that have been munched together as one,  the first three from Noad's
"Baroque Guitar" anthology- an anonymous minuet and sarabande, a
minuet by Falkenhagen transcribed into the same key, ending with a
reprise of the first minuet. The performer in this case is me- so I am
free to make such criticsms as I have above.  You guys are free to
make any such criticisms as may be forthcoming because you are _not_
me, and there is no reason for you to be at all solicitous either of
my sensibilities or my sensitivities.    The tempo is somewhat brisk
for a minuet, even more so for a sarabande, so. for that, and for the
instrument, historicity is out the window right off the bat. But you
can still get a sense as to how well the ornamentation fits, or
doesn't, as the case may be.  For a much more adept exemplar, try some
David Russell- he's pretty good at that stuff..
Dang I miss your Baroque writing. I saved that one when you were....
medicated :-)
Slogoin
2011-08-23 04:32:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by JonLorPro
http://tinyurl.com/3hzxoeh
Damn son! Almost as good as the Ravel my friend played for me
today... :-)

Seriously, thank you. Did you know Fred?
Biendoducedodièse
2011-08-23 06:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for posting this. It is very helpful.

TMr. Bigelow certainly knows how to match his sound to the music.
Donington advise to seek for (i) a transparent sonority and (ii) an incisive articulation. (Both are agreeably present in Mr. Bigelow's interpretation).
Donington continue by saying that "The techniques for producing these qualities of transparency and incisiveness overlap. Their musical effects are complementary, and add up to a vitality which is impressive without being pretentious. (Which is exactly the sentiment I receive when listening to the music!)
How true when you say " just because what you decide to do has an entry in the catalog doesn't mean that it will inevitably fit in." I find myself eliminating many choices previously made/tried just because of that ... they end up not fitting in ... I have always find ornamentation in Bach's music very difficult even at cadencial points which usually are easier to ornament. The other aspect I find difficult to manage is to maintain a sense of spontaneity ... these chosen point of ornamentation have to be practiced ... and sometimes there are variants that are equal in their capacity to confer a certain grace to a passage ... I guess that with time one can achieve a level of comfort in deciding on the spot which one of the choices made to bring out of the hat ... but ... for now ... I am more incline to do less and to secure a safe first version ...

Alain
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