Discussion:
OT: Primary Neocon Documents
(too old to reply)
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-15 15:04:38 UTC
Permalink
This is amazing. http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/chapter-resources

Naomi Klein has written a book which explains how the elite capitalize
on natural and man-made disasters to rush in and loot the place under
the euphemism of "free-trade" and, formerly, "globalization". For
example, Argentina, Russia, New Orleans--and may I add, the
Billionaire Bailout.

Here are some of the primary documents she used to research these vile
actions.

-A declassified CIA interrogation (torture) manual
-pictures of torture at Abu Ghraib
-US-backed coup of Allende's Chile
-Milton Friedman, god of the free-market, sends a letter to Pinochet

and much more. What an incredible chance to educate ourselves,
without having to go to the main library or otherwise obtain
declassified documents and such!

We all think the media is biased, so why not take the responsibility
for our own knowledge? Here is an invaluable resource to do so.
catpandaddy
2008-10-15 15:33:55 UTC
Permalink
"Miguel de Maria" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0ca4e886-b587-4423-935e-***@u27g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> This is amazing.
> http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/chapter-resources
>
> Naomi Klein has written a book which explains how the elite capitalize
> on natural and man-made disasters to rush in and loot the place under
> the euphemism of "free-trade" and, formerly, "globalization".

And on the other side of the coin, a lot of private-sector people donated
their personal time and resources to help out. Max over in the
alt.music.rush group did lots of hard work to help out when hurricane
Katrina hit. I could set it up for you to meet if that would be acceptable,
but of course I wouldn't force the issue.

I'll keep an eye out for the book.
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-15 15:54:38 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 15, 8:33 am, "catpandaddy" <***@cat.pan.net> wrote:
> "Miguel de Maria" <***@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:0ca4e886-b587-4423-935e-***@u27g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
> > This is amazing.
> >http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/chapter-resources
>
> > Naomi Klein has written a book which explains how the elite capitalize
> > on natural and man-made disasters to rush in and loot the place under
> > the euphemism of "free-trade" and, formerly, "globalization".
>
> And on the other side of the coin, a lot of private-sector people donated
> their personal time and resources to help out.  Max over in the
> alt.music.rush group did lots of hard work to help out when hurricane
> Katrina hit.  I could set it up for you to meet if that would be acceptable,
> but of course I wouldn't force the issue.
>
> I'll keep an eye out for the book.

CP, just to clarify--I mean to stress that her sources are online, and
thus can be studied at your leisure, without the interference of
comment. They speak for themselves.

I realize a lot of people did what is the normal human response to
someone in need--they helped. Unfortunately, there is a systematic
pattern whereby the large corporations step in and take advantage of
these crisises for their own gain, and to the detriment of the
victims. For example, in the aftermath of Katrina, they rushed in a
neo-con wishlist legislation and action that never would have been
possible in an operating democracy. It's heartwarming to know that
some people lend a helping hand to those in need, but those stories
become merely footnotes when greed and corruption become
institutionalized.
John LaCroix
2008-10-17 13:59:36 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 15, 11:33 am, "catpandaddy" <***@cat.pan.net> wrote:
> "Miguel de Maria" <***@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:0ca4e886-b587-4423-935e-***@u27g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
> > This is amazing.
> >http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/chapter-resources
>
> > Naomi Klein has written a book which explains how the elite capitalize
> > on natural and man-made disasters to rush in and loot the place under
> > the euphemism of "free-trade" and, formerly, "globalization".
>
> And on the other side of the coin, a lot of private-sector people donated
> their personal time and resources to help out.  Max over in the
> alt.music.rush group did lots of hard work to help out when hurricane
> Katrina hit.  I could set it up for you to meet if that would be acceptable,
> but of course I wouldn't force the issue.
>
> I'll keep an eye out for the book.

I'll have to say I remember the day I felt the most proud being an
American. It was a few days after Katrina hit. There is a State Police
barracks next door to a local shopping center in my town. There was a
line of traffic queued up to drop off supplies - food, water,
clothing, personal items, pet foods, etc. A local contractor showed up
with his pickup bed loaded with a dozen portable generators. People
were cleaning out the store shelves (as I found out when I went
grocery shopping the next day), and bringing the stuff to donate it
for the relieve effort. As people would drive through, volunteers
would unload their cars for them while others would sort and paletize.
The pallets where then loaded onto semi trailers. Full trailers were
towed out and empty trailers were brought in.

My younger daughter and I dropped off some stuff we bought then parked
our car and got out to help. I can't describe the exhileration of
being caught up in the activity. We stayed for about 5 hours. I
remember the govenor had shown up to see what was going on, and it
seemed he just stood their in a daze, dumfounded by the scope of the
activity and the number of people involved. The next day the little
state of VT sent a convoy of about 34 tractor trailers, with police
escort, down to New Orleans, to help people they didn't know and would
probably never meet. And this by in large wasn't a product of a
government initiative - the tractor trailers & fuel were donated by
local shipping companies. I think even some local restaurants packed
lunches for the truck drivers and police officers.

While I would agree there are those who seek to profit from the misery
of others, there is a much stronger force for good. You never know
when and were it will erupt, but it is undeniably there. Don't pay so
much attention to the ripples on the surface, it's the strength of the
current deep down that counts most.

John L.
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-17 16:20:03 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 7:59 am, John LaCroix <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 11:33 am, "catpandaddy" <***@cat.pan.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Miguel de Maria" <***@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:0ca4e886-b587-4423-935e-***@u27g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > This is amazing.
> > >http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/chapter-resources
>
> > > Naomi Klein has written a book which explains how the elite capitalize
> > > on natural and man-made disasters to rush in and loot the place under
> > > the euphemism of "free-trade" and, formerly, "globalization".
>
> > And on the other side of the coin, a lot of private-sector people donated
> > their personal time and resources to help out.  Max over in the
> > alt.music.rush group did lots of hard work to help out when hurricane
> > Katrina hit.  I could set it up for you to meet if that would be acceptable,
> > but of course I wouldn't force the issue.
>
> > I'll keep an eye out for the book.
>
> I'll have to say I remember the day I felt the most proud being an
> American. It was a few days after Katrina hit. There is a State Police
> barracks next door to a local shopping center in my town. There was a
> line of traffic queued up to drop off supplies - food, water,
> clothing, personal items, pet foods, etc. A local contractor showed up
> with his pickup bed loaded with a dozen portable generators. People
> were cleaning out the store shelves (as I found out when I went
> grocery shopping the next day), and bringing the stuff to donate it
> for the relieve effort. As people would drive through, volunteers
> would unload their cars for them while others would sort and paletize.
> The pallets where then loaded onto semi trailers. Full trailers were
> towed out and empty trailers were brought in.
>
> My younger daughter and I dropped off some stuff we bought then parked
> our car and got out to help. I can't describe the exhileration of
> being caught up in the activity. We stayed for about 5 hours. I
> remember the govenor had shown up to see what was going on, and it
> seemed he just stood their in a daze, dumfounded by the scope of the
> activity and the number of people involved. The next day the little
> state of VT sent a convoy of about 34 tractor trailers, with police
> escort, down to New Orleans, to help people they didn't know and would
> probably never meet. And this by in large wasn't a product of a
> government initiative - the tractor trailers & fuel were donated by
> local shipping companies. I think even some local restaurants packed
> lunches for the truck drivers and police officers.
>
> While I would agree there are those who seek to profit from the misery
> of others, there is a much stronger force for good. You never know
> when and were it will erupt, but it is undeniably there. Don't pay so
> much attention to the ripples on the surface, it's the strength of the
> current deep down that counts most.
>
> John L.

Funny John, the days after Katrina hit was when my wife and I looked
at each other and said, lets move to Italy. We felt shameful to be
Americans. I'm glad you felt "exhilarated" and caught a natural high,
and patted each other on the back went home that night and had a sound
sleep.

While you were sleeping, Bush and his buddies were having a field
day! The Government then orchestrated one for the history books!
Disaster Capitalism at it's finest. God accomplished in one day what
would have otherwise taken these guys years. I won't bore you with
the details. I do wonder however, if you heard from anyone down there
who actually handed out the 34 truck loads of goods to the ones who
needed it the most, or are they still sitting in warehouses waiting to
be distributed? Did anyone hand them a house, or their jobs back?
Sure in America most people will put you up and feed you for a few
days, but it's only the Govt that can help get your house back, and
deal with the corrupt insurance companies who won't pay, rebuild
communities, and lives. As well intended as your acts were, they are
no substitute or real and lasting achievements only a Govt can do, and
should do.

John you mistakenly compare your 34 truck loads of unwanted
commodities with real help. Your Govt is bad, the people are good
libertarian/neocon mantra, is perhaps a self fulfilling prophecy. But
John, as long as you feel happy isn't that what it's all about?
catpandaddy
2008-10-17 16:58:57 UTC
Permalink
<***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:444402b9-6970-42c6-b518-***@17g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 17, 7:59 am, John LaCroix <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 11:33 am, "catpandaddy" <***@cat.pan.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Miguel de Maria" <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> > messagenews:0ca4e886-b587-4423-935e-***@u27g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > This is amazing.
> > >http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/chapter-resources
>
> > > Naomi Klein has written a book which explains how the elite capitalize
> > > on natural and man-made disasters to rush in and loot the place under
> > > the euphemism of "free-trade" and, formerly, "globalization".
>
> > And on the other side of the coin, a lot of private-sector people
> > donated
> > their personal time and resources to help out. Max over in the
> > alt.music.rush group did lots of hard work to help out when hurricane
> > Katrina hit. I could set it up for you to meet if that would be
> > acceptable,
> > but of course I wouldn't force the issue.
>
> > I'll keep an eye out for the book.
>
> I'll have to say I remember the day I felt the most proud being an
> American. It was a few days after Katrina hit. There is a State Police
> barracks next door to a local shopping center in my town. There was a
> line of traffic queued up to drop off supplies - food, water,
> clothing, personal items, pet foods, etc. A local contractor showed up
> with his pickup bed loaded with a dozen portable generators. People
> were cleaning out the store shelves (as I found out when I went
> grocery shopping the next day), and bringing the stuff to donate it
> for the relieve effort. As people would drive through, volunteers
> would unload their cars for them while others would sort and paletize.
> The pallets where then loaded onto semi trailers. Full trailers were
> towed out and empty trailers were brought in.
>
> My younger daughter and I dropped off some stuff we bought then parked
> our car and got out to help. I can't describe the exhileration of
> being caught up in the activity. We stayed for about 5 hours. I
> remember the govenor had shown up to see what was going on, and it
> seemed he just stood their in a daze, dumfounded by the scope of the
> activity and the number of people involved. The next day the little
> state of VT sent a convoy of about 34 tractor trailers, with police
> escort, down to New Orleans, to help people they didn't know and would
> probably never meet. And this by in large wasn't a product of a
> government initiative - the tractor trailers & fuel were donated by
> local shipping companies. I think even some local restaurants packed
> lunches for the truck drivers and police officers.
>
> While I would agree there are those who seek to profit from the misery
> of others, there is a much stronger force for good. You never know
> when and were it will erupt, but it is undeniably there. Don't pay so
> much attention to the ripples on the surface, it's the strength of the
> current deep down that counts most.
>
> John L.

> Funny John, the days after Katrina hit was when my wife and I looked at
> each other and said, lets move to Italy. We felt shameful to be
> Americans. I'm glad you felt "exhilarated" and caught a natural high, and
> patted each other on the back went home that night and had a sound sleep.
>
>
>
>
> John you mistakenly compare your 34 truck loads of unwanted commodities
> with real help. Your Govt is bad, the people are good libertarian/neocon
> mantra, is perhaps a self fulfilling prophecy. But John, as long as you
> feel happy isn't that what it's all about?

If your true colors weren't showing before, they are on full display now.
Words escape me except for one....

<PLONK!!!!!>
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-17 18:24:31 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 10:58 am, "catpandaddy" <***@cat.pan.net> wrote:
> <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:444402b9-6970-42c6-b518-***@17g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 17, 7:59 am, John LaCroix <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 15, 11:33 am, "catpandaddy" <***@cat.pan.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Miguel de Maria" <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> > > messagenews:0ca4e886-b587-4423-935e-***@u27g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > This is amazing.
> > > >http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/chapter-resources
>
> > > > Naomi Klein has written a book which explains how the elite capitalize
> > > > on natural and man-made disasters to rush in and loot the place under
> > > > the euphemism of "free-trade" and, formerly, "globalization".
>
> > > And on the other side of the coin, a lot of private-sector people
> > > donated
> > > their personal time and resources to help out. Max over in the
> > > alt.music.rush group did lots of hard work to help out when hurricane
> > > Katrina hit. I could set it up for you to meet if that would be
> > > acceptable,
> > > but of course I wouldn't force the issue.
>
> > > I'll keep an eye out for the book.
>
> > I'll have to say I remember the day I felt the most proud being an
> > American. It was a few days after Katrina hit. There is a State Police
> > barracks next door to a local shopping center in my town. There was a
> > line of traffic queued up to drop off supplies - food, water,
> > clothing, personal items, pet foods, etc. A local contractor showed up
> > with his pickup bed loaded with a dozen portable generators. People
> > were cleaning out the store shelves (as I found out when I went
> > grocery shopping the next day), and bringing the stuff to donate it
> > for the relieve effort. As people would drive through, volunteers
> > would unload their cars for them while others would sort and paletize.
> > The pallets where then loaded onto semi trailers. Full trailers were
> > towed out and empty trailers were brought in.
>
> > My younger daughter and I dropped off some stuff we bought then parked
> > our car and got out to help. I can't describe the exhileration of
> > being caught up in the activity. We stayed for about 5 hours. I
> > remember the govenor had shown up to see what was going on, and it
> > seemed he just stood their in a daze, dumfounded by the scope of the
> > activity and the number of people involved. The next day the little
> > state of VT sent a convoy of about 34 tractor trailers, with police
> > escort, down to New Orleans, to help people they didn't know and would
> > probably never meet. And this by in large wasn't a product of a
> > government initiative - the tractor trailers & fuel were donated by
> > local shipping companies. I think even some local restaurants packed
> > lunches for the truck drivers and police officers.
>
> > While I would agree there are those who seek to profit from the misery
> > of others, there is a much stronger force for good. You never know
> > when and were it will erupt, but it is undeniably there. Don't pay so
> > much attention to the ripples on the surface, it's the strength of the
> > current deep down that counts most.
>
> > John L.
> > Funny John,  the days after Katrina hit was when my wife and I looked at
> > each other and said, lets move to Italy.  We felt shameful to be
> > Americans. I'm glad you felt "exhilarated" and caught a natural high, and
> > patted each other on the back went home that night and had a sound sleep.
>
> > John you mistakenly compare your 34 truck loads of unwanted commodities
> > with real help.  Your Govt is bad, the people are good libertarian/neocon
> > mantra, is perhaps a self fulfilling prophecy.  But John, as long as you
> > feel happy isn't that what it's all about?
>
> If your true colors weren't showing before, they are on full display now.
> Words escape me except for one....
>
> <PLONK!!!!!>

You may say many things about me, but hiding my true colors is not
one of them. Catbreath, your little diddly poo posts, are proof words
do indeed escape you! I agree with the great one, you run with the
herd!

Plonk?...... are you still playing with your shit? How old are you
anyway?
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-15 15:47:52 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 15, 9:04 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
> This is amazing.  http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/chapter-resources
>
> Naomi Klein has written a book which explains how the elite capitalize
> on natural and man-made disasters to rush in and loot the place under
> the euphemism of "free-trade" and, formerly, "globalization".  For
> example, Argentina, Russia, New Orleans--and may I add, the
> Billionaire Bailout.
>
> Here are some of the primary documents she used to research these vile
> actions.
>
> -A declassified CIA interrogation (torture) manual
> -pictures of torture at Abu Ghraib
> -US-backed coup of Allende's Chile
> -Milton Friedman, god of the free-market, sends a letter to Pinochet
>
> and much more.  What an incredible chance to educate ourselves,
> without having to go to the main library or otherwise obtain
> declassified documents and such!
>
> We all think the media is biased, so why not take the responsibility
> for our own knowledge?  Here is an invaluable resource to do so.

Miguel, spot on my friend! I highly recommend her book, based as you
say on actual declassified information. It should be required
reading, so we all can really understand the mindless American flag
waving phenomenon. After reading her book one understands Capitalism
does not equal patriotism, as Capitalism flourishes better under a
dictatorship, and China is an excellent example. The one obvious
requirement for Laissez-faire-capitalism, that Friedman seems to never
mention, is a socialist military to inflict the system upon the people
at the barrel of a gun.

Friedman's insane ideas never seem to work in real world situations,
as there are always "disturbances' to the force. He is of the same
mind as Carl Marx, only Friedman calls for a utopian capitalist love
fest, which can only work in an unrealistic absolute "Natural State"
free from the contamination of man.....and many neocon/Libertarians
have bought it hook, line, and sinker. Ronald Regan used to carry
Friedman's book with him on the campaign trail, clutching it in one
hand like the Bible itself. Reaganomics are over and people really
should educate themselves as to the real ideas that fuel, war after
war.

In a global economy the banking institutions are "Country first" and
military regimes are at their disposal, while the masses of Americans
are deluded into thinking we are are fighting the good fight, and God
is on our side of the local currency. Give Caesar what is due Caesar!

More insight to this trumped up faslse flag war in the Middle East!

Rimmer is dancing a Jigg today we caught him, who ever he is, is.
ktaylor
2008-10-16 04:07:47 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 15, 10:47 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
 After reading her book one understands Capitalism
> does not equal patriotism, as Capitalism flourishes better under a
> dictatorship, and China is an excellent example.

Capitalism equals patriotism? Never heard that one.

All businesses in China exist at the will or whim of the Peoples
Party. You mistake authoritarian fascism for capitalism. Try selling
"Free Tibet" t-shirts in Beiping.

Kevin T.
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-16 04:36:56 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 15, 10:07 pm, ktaylor <***@aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 10:47 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>   After reading her book one understands Capitalism
>
> > does not equal patriotism, as Capitalism flourishes better under a
> > dictatorship, and China is an excellent example.
>
> Capitalism equals patriotism? Never heard that one.
>
> All businesses in China exist at the will or whim of the Peoples
> Party. You mistake authoritarian fascism for capitalism. Try selling
> "Free Tibet" t-shirts in Beiping.
>
> Kevin T.

Well Kevin I think you just proved my point. You equate Capitalism
with freedom as most Americans do.
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-16 18:54:33 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 15, 9:07 pm, ktaylor <***@aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 10:47 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>   After reading her book one understands Capitalism
>
> > does not equal patriotism, as Capitalism flourishes better under a
> > dictatorship, and China is an excellent example.
>
> Capitalism equals patriotism? Never heard that one.
>
> All businesses in China exist at the will or whim of the Peoples
> Party. You mistake authoritarian fascism for capitalism. Try selling
> "Free Tibet" t-shirts in Beiping.
>
> Kevin T.

Kevin,
The Right often conflates capitalism with patriotism, in the equation
Communist = Traitor. Then it becomes Liberal = Communist = Traitor.
More educated right-wingers often do not go this far, but it is an
omnipresent strategy and belief in most of the Right. If you have not
heard it, then I must commend you on avoiding Rush Limbaugh and Fox
News.

Your second remark seems strange to me. Fascism, a form of
government, cannot be mistaken for capitalism, a form of economic
structure. And, fascism is government subservient to the corporation
(you are a history buff, right?). I'm sure you can see the logical
mess this would create: All capitalism is subject to the whim of
capitalists. I think what you are trying to say is all capitalism in
China exists at the whim of the totalitarian government that rules
China.

Capitalism, of course, signifies private ownership of the means of
production. This dynamically creates a concentration of wealth in the
hands of the owners of capital, who then become an aristocratic
class. Institutionally, they would then erect barriers to entry and
use the government to eliminate competition (the key to sustained
success for any capitalist). That we are living in the midst of this
process, not at the endpoint, accounts for your observation that we
are free to discuss this on Google Groups. Certainly you must have
noticed that many of our rights are being circumscribed by the
Rightist government: we are moving closer on the scale toward
Authoritarianism. This is the other road to serfdom, Kevin.

Naomi Klein's book shows how the elite have systematically exploited
disasters to undemocratically push through their self-serving ideas.
This is a part of capitalism, both historically and on the cover of
the New York Times, and to ignore it is simply to do the ostrich
routine.
dsi1
2008-10-17 01:49:35 UTC
Permalink
Miguel de Maria wrote:

> Kevin,
> The Right often conflates capitalism with patriotism, in the equation
> Communist = Traitor. Then it becomes Liberal = Communist = Traitor.
> More educated right-wingers often do not go this far, but it is an
> omnipresent strategy and belief in most of the Right. If you have not
> heard it, then I must commend you on avoiding Rush Limbaugh and Fox
> News.

You might find this interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI
b***@gmail.com
2008-10-17 02:46:10 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 16, 9:49 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
> Miguel de Maria wrote:
> > Kevin,
> > The Right often conflates capitalism with patriotism, in the equation
> > Communist = Traitor.  Then it becomes Liberal = Communist = Traitor.
> > More educated right-wingers often do not go this far, but it is an
> > omnipresent strategy and belief in most of the Right.  If you have not
> > heard it, then I must commend you on avoiding Rush Limbaugh and Fox
> > News.
>
> You might find this interesting:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI

Read the book "The Road to Hell" by Michael Maren. Very enlightening.
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-17 06:14:04 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 16, 6:49 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
> Miguel de Maria wrote:
> > Kevin,
> > The Right often conflates capitalism with patriotism, in the equation
> > Communist = Traitor.  Then it becomes Liberal = Communist = Traitor.
> > More educated right-wingers often do not go this far, but it is an
> > omnipresent strategy and belief in most of the Right.  If you have not
> > heard it, then I must commend you on avoiding Rush Limbaugh and Fox
> > News.
>
> You might find this interesting:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI

David,
I'm down with Naomi Wolf. She's not as solid as Chomsky or Klein, but
I don't think she's that far off base, from what I've seen.

Guess who I heard on talk radio on my way to a gig--Mufi Hanneman! I
sometimes listen to Right-Wing radio, and they were interviewing him.
Hilariously, they were subjecting him to a Right-Wing softball
treatment, but he didn't answer any of the questions as they wished.
They were trying to get him to say that unions should be crushed,
wildernesses should be despoiled, taxes should be lowered... he played
the warm, hospitable Pacific Islander to a tee, but didn't commit to
Neo-Conia, either.

I remember when he appeared 10-15 years ago, I and was impressed he
had gone to Harvard.
dsi1
2008-10-17 08:48:43 UTC
Permalink
Miguel de Maria wrote:
> David,
> I'm down with Naomi Wolf. She's not as solid as Chomsky or Klein, but
> I don't think she's that far off base, from what I've seen.
>
> Guess who I heard on talk radio on my way to a gig--Mufi Hanneman! I
> sometimes listen to Right-Wing radio, and they were interviewing him.
> Hilariously, they were subjecting him to a Right-Wing softball
> treatment, but he didn't answer any of the questions as they wished.
> They were trying to get him to say that unions should be crushed,
> wildernesses should be despoiled, taxes should be lowered... he played
> the warm, hospitable Pacific Islander to a tee, but didn't commit to
> Neo-Conia, either.
>
> I remember when he appeared 10-15 years ago, I and was impressed he
> had gone to Harvard.

That's one charming mayor of Honolulu we got there! One thing's for sure
- it'll be a long while before Honolulu gets another mayor with such a
cute and cuddly name.

Sad to say, Mufi has his hands full with some folks trying to mess up
his plans for his $6B light rail project. This year's mayoral election
will only be about whether we're for or against his plans. At least this
makes the choice easy - or does it?

Da proper mass transit system for our little town has been fought over
by many players since you were in high school and even since I was in
high school in the 70s. It's obvious that whomever can push this baby
through stands to make a lot of money for themselves and their friends.
I thought it was a done deal with Mufi winning the big jackpot but boy,
was that ever wrong! What the heck, if we have learned anything from H3,
it is that with enough money to be made as a motivation force and enough
tax money, any hugely expensive, unpopular, and probably ineffective
method of moving people around can eventually be built. :-)
Wollybird
2008-10-17 11:56:09 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 3:48 am, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
> Miguel de Maria wrote:
> > David,
> > I'm down with Naomi Wolf.  She's not as solid as Chomsky or Klein, but
> > I don't think she's that far off base, from what I've seen.
>
> > Guess who I heard on talk radio on my way to a gig--Mufi Hanneman!  I
> > sometimes listen to Right-Wing radio, and they were interviewing him.
> > Hilariously, they were subjecting him to a Right-Wing softball
> > treatment, but he didn't answer any of the questions as they wished.
> > They were trying to get him to say that unions should be crushed,
> > wildernesses should be despoiled, taxes should be lowered... he played
> > the warm, hospitable Pacific Islander to a tee, but didn't commit to
> > Neo-Conia, either.
>
> > I remember when he appeared 10-15 years ago, I and was impressed he
> > had gone to Harvard.
>
> That's one charming mayor of Honolulu we got there! One thing's for sure
> - it'll be a long while before Honolulu gets another mayor with such a
> cute and cuddly name.
>
> Sad to say, Mufi has his hands full with some folks trying to mess up
> his plans for his $6B light rail project. This year's mayoral election
> will only be about whether we're for or against his plans. At least this
> makes the choice easy - or does it?
>
> Da proper mass transit system for our little town has been fought over
> by many players since you were in high school and even since I was in
> high school in the 70s. It's obvious that whomever can push this baby
> through stands to make a lot of money for themselves and their friends.
> I thought it was a done deal with Mufi winning the big jackpot but boy,
> was that ever wrong! What the heck, if we have learned anything from H3,
> it is that with enough money to be made as a motivation force and enough
> tax money, any hugely expensive, unpopular, and probably ineffective
> method of moving people around can eventually be built. :-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

We're doing that here, too. $89 million per mile, for a 10 mile line
between downtowns, and we don't even like each other.
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-17 15:47:28 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 5:56 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> On Oct 17, 3:48 am, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Miguel de Maria wrote:
> > > David,
> > > I'm down with Naomi Wolf.  She's not as solid as Chomsky or Klein, but
> > > I don't think she's that far off base, from what I've seen.
>
> > > Guess who I heard on talk radio on my way to a gig--Mufi Hanneman!  I
> > > sometimes listen to Right-Wing radio, and they were interviewing him.
> > > Hilariously, they were subjecting him to a Right-Wing softball
> > > treatment, but he didn't answer any of the questions as they wished.
> > > They were trying to get him to say that unions should be crushed,
> > > wildernesses should be despoiled, taxes should be lowered... he played
> > > the warm, hospitable Pacific Islander to a tee, but didn't commit to
> > > Neo-Conia, either.
>
> > > I remember when he appeared 10-15 years ago, I and was impressed he
> > > had gone to Harvard.
>
> > That's one charming mayor of Honolulu we got there! One thing's for sure
> > - it'll be a long while before Honolulu gets another mayor with such a
> > cute and cuddly name.
>
> > Sad to say, Mufi has his hands full with some folks trying to mess up
> > his plans for his $6B light rail project. This year's mayoral election
> > will only be about whether we're for or against his plans. At least this
> > makes the choice easy - or does it?
>
> > Da proper mass transit system for our little town has been fought over
> > by many players since you were in high school and even since I was in
> > high school in the 70s. It's obvious that whomever can push this baby
> > through stands to make a lot of money for themselves and their friends.
> > I thought it was a done deal with Mufi winning the big jackpot but boy,
> > was that ever wrong! What the heck, if we have learned anything from H3,
> > it is that with enough money to be made as a motivation force and enough
> > tax money, any hugely expensive, unpopular, and probably ineffective
> > method of moving people around can eventually be built. :-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> We're doing that here, too. $89 million per mile, for a 10 mile line
> between downtowns, and we don't even like each other.

Ha Ha, we liberals here in New Mexico already did it! Next month a
train will run between Albuquerque and Santa Fe, it runs on fuel
cells, floats on air, with a top speed of 360 MPH. I can't remember
how much it costs.
dsi1
2008-10-17 18:32:49 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 1:56 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> On Oct 17, 3:48 am, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Miguel de Maria wrote:
> > > David,
> > > I'm down with Naomi Wolf.  She's not as solid as Chomsky or Klein, but
> > > I don't think she's that far off base, from what I've seen.
>
> > > Guess who I heard on talk radio on my way to a gig--Mufi Hanneman!  I
> > > sometimes listen to Right-Wing radio, and they were interviewing him.
> > > Hilariously, they were subjecting him to a Right-Wing softball
> > > treatment, but he didn't answer any of the questions as they wished.
> > > They were trying to get him to say that unions should be crushed,
> > > wildernesses should be despoiled, taxes should be lowered... he played
> > > the warm, hospitable Pacific Islander to a tee, but didn't commit to
> > > Neo-Conia, either.
>
> > > I remember when he appeared 10-15 years ago, I and was impressed he
> > > had gone to Harvard.
>
> > That's one charming mayor of Honolulu we got there! One thing's for sure
> > - it'll be a long while before Honolulu gets another mayor with such a
> > cute and cuddly name.
>
> > Sad to say, Mufi has his hands full with some folks trying to mess up
> > his plans for his $6B light rail project. This year's mayoral election
> > will only be about whether we're for or against his plans. At least this
> > makes the choice easy - or does it?
>
> > Da proper mass transit system for our little town has been fought over
> > by many players since you were in high school and even since I was in
> > high school in the 70s. It's obvious that whomever can push this baby
> > through stands to make a lot of money for themselves and their friends.
> > I thought it was a done deal with Mufi winning the big jackpot but boy,
> > was that ever wrong! What the heck, if we have learned anything from H3,
> > it is that with enough money to be made as a motivation force and enough
> > tax money, any hugely expensive, unpopular, and probably ineffective
> > method of moving people around can eventually be built. :-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> We're doing that here, too. $89 million per mile, for a 10 mile line
> between downtowns, and we don't even like each other.

This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
using their fake lowball figures. :-)

1357 is also the first four prime numbers and the address of the house
I grew up in. Coincidence? I think not!
Wollybird
2008-10-17 18:36:45 UTC
Permalink
>
> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> using their fake lowball figures. :-)

That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
dsi1
2008-10-17 18:49:14 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> > This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > using their fake lowball figures. :-)
>
> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much

Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-17 19:57:08 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > > that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > > using their fake lowball figures. :-)
>
> > That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
>
> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!

Non other than Bill Richardson. Don't forget the small town I come
from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
dsi1
2008-10-17 20:26:23 UTC
Permalink
***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
>> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
>>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
>>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
>>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
>> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
>> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> Non other than Bill Richardson. Don't forget the small town I come
> from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".

My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
the panels on your property.
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-17 22:28:53 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 1:26 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
> ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> >> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> >>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> >>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> >>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
> >>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
> >> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> >> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> > Non other than Bill Richardson.  Don't forget the small town I come
> > from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
>
> My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
> the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
> woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
> the panels on your property.

Phoenix should be the solar capitol of the world. But we are more
concerned with drilling in the Actic Refuge. After all, what's more
important, People or Caribou? What about the Children--it's got to be
about jobs--look, there's a terrorist behind you!
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-18 16:44:40 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 2:26 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
> ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> >> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> >>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> >>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> >>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
> >>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
> >> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> >> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> > Non other than Bill Richardson.  Don't forget the small town I come
> > from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
>
> My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
> the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
> woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
> the panels on your property.

Last time I bought solar panels there was a waiting list of about 3
months, because Germany was buying them all up. Italy is is one of
the most progressive countries these days as well in alt energy. I
could be mistaken but I heard the Vatican is going solar.

I would like to convert my house in Santa Fe over to solar, but that
would cost me about $25,000 for a good system, thesedays you can sell
your excess energy back to the grid and at the end of the month the
power company pays you. Unfortunatey without govt. incentives and tax
breaks like Germany and other progressive countires provide, recouping
your inetial investment can take ages.

Richard Savino told me he plans to convert his house near Berkeley
over to solar, and buy an electric car for his commute to work, free
energy, minus the intial investment. But hey allota people pay
$50.000 just for there cars anyway.
Wollybird
2008-10-18 17:30:54 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 18, 11:44 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 17, 2:26 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> > >> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > >>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > >>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > >>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
> > >>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
> > >> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> > >> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> > > Non other than Bill Richardson.  Don't forget the small town I come
> > > from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
>
> > My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
> > the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
> > woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
> > the panels on your property.
>
> Last time I bought solar panels there was a waiting list of about 3
> months, because Germany was buying them all up.  Italy is is one of
> the most progressive countries these days as well in alt energy.  I
> could be mistaken but I heard the Vatican is going solar.
>
>   I would like to convert my house in Santa Fe over to solar, but that
> would cost me about $25,000 for a good system, thesedays you can sell
> your excess energy back to the grid and at the end of the month the
> power company pays you.  Unfortunatey without govt. incentives and tax
> breaks like Germany and other progressive countires provide, recouping
> your inetial investment can take ages.
>
>   Richard Savino told me he plans to convert his house near Berkeley
> over to solar, and buy an electric car for his commute to work, free
> energy, minus the intial investment.  But hey allota people pay
> $50.000 just for there cars anyway.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

There are tax incintives.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8998516/
The mistake has been the cheap energy policy of the last 30 years. You
will note a 10% reduction in oil consumption, and demand for fuel
efficent cars in the last year
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-18 20:47:12 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 18, 11:30 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> On Oct 18, 11:44 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 17, 2:26 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> > > >> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > >>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > > >>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > > >>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
> > > >>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
> > > >> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> > > >> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> > > > Non other than Bill Richardson.  Don't forget the small town I come
> > > > from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
>
> > > My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
> > > the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
> > > woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
> > > the panels on your property.
>
> > Last time I bought solar panels there was a waiting list of about 3
> > months, because Germany was buying them all up.  Italy is is one of
> > the most progressive countries these days as well in alt energy.  I
> > could be mistaken but I heard the Vatican is going solar.
>
> >   I would like to convert my house in Santa Fe over to solar, but that
> > would cost me about $25,000 for a good system, thesedays you can sell
> > your excess energy back to the grid and at the end of the month the
> > power company pays you.  Unfortunatey without govt. incentives and tax
> > breaks like Germany and other progressive countires provide, recouping
> > your inetial investment can take ages.
>
> >   Richard Savino told me he plans to convert his house near Berkeley
> > over to solar, and buy an electric car for his commute to work, free
> > energy, minus the intial investment.  But hey allota people pay
> > $50.000 just for there cars anyway.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> There are tax incintives.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8998516/
> The mistake has been the cheap energy policy of the last 30 years. You
> will note a 10% reduction in oil consumption, and demand for fuel
> efficent cars in the last year

I don't think the tax incentives are enough. I estimated the cost of
converting my house to Solar is about $25,000 ( I paid $20,000 for my
system in Taos), that's because I can do most of the installation
myself. Savino estimated the cost of doing his house around $50,000
to $60.000 in California. So a Govt. tax credit of $4000.00 isn't
very encouraging. Bush gives you more tax breaks if you buy an SUV.

I would rather see this country use the European models for tax
credits, I believe Norway , and Germany have very aggressive
incentives that if I not mistaken end up paying you back after ten
years or so your total investment.
Wollybird
2008-10-18 23:06:23 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 18, 3:47 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 18, 11:30 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 18, 11:44 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 17, 2:26 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > > ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> > > > >> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > > >>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > > > >>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > > > >>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
> > > > >>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
> > > > >> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> > > > >> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> > > > > Non other than Bill Richardson.  Don't forget the small town I come
> > > > > from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
>
> > > > My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
> > > > the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
> > > > woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
> > > > the panels on your property.
>
> > > Last time I bought solar panels there was a waiting list of about 3
> > > months, because Germany was buying them all up.  Italy is is one of
> > > the most progressive countries these days as well in alt energy.  I
> > > could be mistaken but I heard the Vatican is going solar.
>
> > >   I would like to convert my house in Santa Fe over to solar, but that
> > > would cost me about $25,000 for a good system, thesedays you can sell
> > > your excess energy back to the grid and at the end of the month the
> > > power company pays you.  Unfortunatey without govt. incentives and tax
> > > breaks like Germany and other progressive countires provide, recouping
> > > your inetial investment can take ages.
>
> > >   Richard Savino told me he plans to convert his house near Berkeley
> > > over to solar, and buy an electric car for his commute to work, free
> > > energy, minus the intial investment.  But hey allota people pay
> > > $50.000 just for there cars anyway.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > There are tax incintives.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8998516/
> > The mistake has been the cheap energy policy of the last 30 years. You
> > will note a 10% reduction in oil consumption, and demand for fuel
> > efficent cars in the last year
>
> I don't think the tax incentives are enough. I estimated the cost of
> converting my house to Solar is about $25,000 ( I paid $20,000 for my
> system in Taos), that's because I can do most of the installation
> myself.  Savino estimated the cost of doing his house around $50,000
> to $60.000 in California.  So a Govt. tax credit of $4000.00 isn't
> very encouraging.  Bush gives you more tax breaks if you buy an SUV.
>
>   I would rather see this country use the European models for tax
> credits,  I believe Norway , and Germany have very aggressive
> incentives that if I not mistaken end up paying you back after ten
> years or so your total investment.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I don't have my calculator, but that's about $270 per month over ten
years, not including another tax deduct if you do it as a mortgage.
The invisible hand will make you do it!
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-19 14:57:45 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 18, 5:06 pm, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> On Oct 18, 3:47 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 18, 11:30 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 18, 11:44 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 17, 2:26 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> > > > > >> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > >>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > > > > >>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > > > > >>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
> > > > > >>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
> > > > > >> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> > > > > >> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> > > > > > Non other than Bill Richardson.  Don't forget the small town I come
> > > > > > from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
>
> > > > > My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
> > > > > the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
> > > > > woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
> > > > > the panels on your property.
>
> > > > Last time I bought solar panels there was a waiting list of about 3
> > > > months, because Germany was buying them all up.  Italy is is one of
> > > > the most progressive countries these days as well in alt energy.  I
> > > > could be mistaken but I heard the Vatican is going solar.
>
> > > >   I would like to convert my house in Santa Fe over to solar, but that
> > > > would cost me about $25,000 for a good system, thesedays you can sell
> > > > your excess energy back to the grid and at the end of the month the
> > > > power company pays you.  Unfortunatey without govt. incentives and tax
> > > > breaks like Germany and other progressive countires provide, recouping
> > > > your inetial investment can take ages.
>
> > > >   Richard Savino told me he plans to convert his house near Berkeley
> > > > over to solar, and buy an electric car for his commute to work, free
> > > > energy, minus the intial investment.  But hey allota people pay
> > > > $50.000 just for there cars anyway.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > There are tax incintives.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8998516/
> > > The mistake has been the cheap energy policy of the last 30 years. You
> > > will note a 10% reduction in oil consumption, and demand for fuel
> > > efficent cars in the last year
>
> > I don't think the tax incentives are enough. I estimated the cost of
> > converting my house to Solar is about $25,000 ( I paid $20,000 for my
> > system in Taos), that's because I can do most of the installation
> > myself.  Savino estimated the cost of doing his house around $50,000
> > to $60.000 in California.  So a Govt. tax credit of $4000.00 isn't
> > very encouraging.  Bush gives you more tax breaks if you buy an SUV.
>
> >   I would rather see this country use the European models for tax
> > credits,  I believe Norway , and Germany have very aggressive
> > incentives that if I not mistaken end up paying you back after ten
> > years or so your total investment.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't have my calculator, but that's about $270 per month over ten
> years, not including another tax deduct if you do it as a mortgage.
> The invisible hand will make you do it!

I have only heard bits and pieces of Germany's tax breaks for solar,
so don't take my statement to the bank, I've been out of the loop for
a while now. The link below bases the cost of installing a solar
system at around $45,000 for an average American household. The panel
square foot spread is based on 570 square feet, that's huge! I know
for a fact that the energy costs alone for a typical American size
refrigerator for 10 years is around $3000.00, and that was the cost
about 10 years ago, I don't know what it is today. Germans typically
have very small refrigerators, as most Europeans tend to go to the
market and buy fresh foods, and don't eat as much frozen foods as we
do here. The main power consumer in a solar house is the
refrigerator. I opted for a propane refrigerator and last time I
checked it costs about $10.00 a month to run, about the same as your
average frig. However, the cost of addition panels etc. to run a
typical frig would be cost prohibitive.

If your house is already on the grid, what is typically done these
days is to install a solar system and hook it up to the grid and sell
your power to the grid by day (as you can't get power a night) and get
it back via the grid at night. You can calculate how much your house
uses and buy a solar system that will generate the same power. The
savings come both from tax breaks, as well as no monthly electric
bill, and possibly the grid sending you a check every month.

In my house in Taos I also have a Staber state of the art washing
machine which uses around 15 gallons of water ( a scarce commodity in
the Southwest) and very little electricity.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/05/staber_top_load.php

In my case I had no chioce but to use a solar system, as the power
lines were 2 miles down the road and to bring them to my house would
have cost around $200,000. A no brainier.

I ran my entire shop bandsaws, table saws, etc. from my solar
panels.

The weak link in any solar system are the batteries as they wear out
after 3 to 6 years depending on how much abuse they endure, and need
replacement. You can spend exorbitant prices on batteries that will
last for a lifetime, but when you break it down you still end up
paying per Amp.



http://www.watthackers.com/wp/understanding-the-true-cost-of-installing-solar-panels-in-2008/
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-19 22:10:21 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 18, 1:47 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 18, 11:30 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 18, 11:44 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 17, 2:26 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > > ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> > > > >> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > > >>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > > > >>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > > > >>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
> > > > >>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
> > > > >> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> > > > >> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> > > > > Non other than Bill Richardson.  Don't forget the small town I come
> > > > > from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
>
> > > > My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
> > > > the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
> > > > woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
> > > > the panels on your property.
>
> > > Last time I bought solar panels there was a waiting list of about 3
> > > months, because Germany was buying them all up.  Italy is is one of
> > > the most progressive countries these days as well in alt energy.  I
> > > could be mistaken but I heard the Vatican is going solar.
>
> > >   I would like to convert my house in Santa Fe over to solar, but that
> > > would cost me about $25,000 for a good system, thesedays you can sell
> > > your excess energy back to the grid and at the end of the month the
> > > power company pays you.  Unfortunatey without govt. incentives and tax
> > > breaks like Germany and other progressive countires provide, recouping
> > > your inetial investment can take ages.
>
> > >   Richard Savino told me he plans to convert his house near Berkeley
> > > over to solar, and buy an electric car for his commute to work, free
> > > energy, minus the intial investment.  But hey allota people pay
> > > $50.000 just for there cars anyway.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > There are tax incintives.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8998516/
> > The mistake has been the cheap energy policy of the last 30 years. You
> > will note a 10% reduction in oil consumption, and demand for fuel
> > efficent cars in the last year
>
> I don't think the tax incentives are enough. I estimated the cost of
> converting my house to Solar is about $25,000 ( I paid $20,000 for my
> system in Taos), that's because I can do most of the installation
> myself.  Savino estimated the cost of doing his house around $50,000
> to $60.000 in California.  So a Govt. tax credit of $4000.00 isn't
> very encouraging.  Bush gives you more tax breaks if you buy an SUV.
>
>   I would rather see this country use the European models for tax
> credits,  I believe Norway , and Germany have very aggressive
> incentives that if I not mistaken end up paying you back after ten
> years or so your total investment.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

If we are talking about energy conservation, there are other steps
too, that are much cheaper and low-tech.

a. passive solar energy--if you get an old water heater and paint it
black and put it where the sun will shine on it, that will get the
water pretty hot, and if you can pump it back into your system, you
could save a lot of $ on heating it.

b. high thermal mass buildings--adobe, mud, stone, and strawbale
homes, with thick 13"+ walls can save heating energy and cooling
energy, especially with minimal windows and great insulation. Houses
can also be covered in dirt or partially buried (imagine a house
covered with flowers!).

c. window size and placement can help heat a cold home, or help keep
a hot one cooler.

d. growing trees to shade the house can help keep a house cool, and
is especially good if you use native trees

e. solar walls, solar windows, and sunspaces can be designed to help
retain heat.

These are low-tech, cheap (most of these are used by the poorest of
the poor), and could make a huge difference in the amount of energy
needed for a comfortable home. We are mostly talking mud, black
paint, and plants here. I used to live in an adobe home, and I hope
to again if I stay here in the Southwest.
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-20 04:53:26 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 19, 4:10 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Oct 18, 1:47 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 18, 11:30 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 18, 11:44 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 17, 2:26 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> > > > > >> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > >>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > > > > >>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > > > > >>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
> > > > > >>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
> > > > > >> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> > > > > >> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> > > > > > Non other than Bill Richardson.  Don't forget the small town I come
> > > > > > from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
>
> > > > > My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
> > > > > the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
> > > > > woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
> > > > > the panels on your property.
>
> > > > Last time I bought solar panels there was a waiting list of about 3
> > > > months, because Germany was buying them all up.  Italy is is one of
> > > > the most progressive countries these days as well in alt energy.  I
> > > > could be mistaken but I heard the Vatican is going solar.
>
> > > >   I would like to convert my house in Santa Fe over to solar, but that
> > > > would cost me about $25,000 for a good system, thesedays you can sell
> > > > your excess energy back to the grid and at the end of the month the
> > > > power company pays you.  Unfortunatey without govt. incentives and tax
> > > > breaks like Germany and other progressive countires provide, recouping
> > > > your inetial investment can take ages.
>
> > > >   Richard Savino told me he plans to convert his house near Berkeley
> > > > over to solar, and buy an electric car for his commute to work, free
> > > > energy, minus the intial investment.  But hey allota people pay
> > > > $50.000 just for there cars anyway.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > There are tax incintives.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8998516/
> > > The mistake has been the cheap energy policy of the last 30 years. You
> > > will note a 10% reduction in oil consumption, and demand for fuel
> > > efficent cars in the last year
>
> > I don't think the tax incentives are enough. I estimated the cost of
> > converting my house to Solar is about $25,000 ( I paid $20,000 for my
> > system in Taos), that's because I can do most of the installation
> > myself.  Savino estimated the cost of doing his house around $50,000
> > to $60.000 in California.  So a Govt. tax credit of $4000.00 isn't
> > very encouraging.  Bush gives you more tax breaks if you buy an SUV.
>
> >   I would rather see this country use the European models for tax
> > credits,  I believe Norway , and Germany have very aggressive
> > incentives that if I not mistaken end up paying you back after ten
> > years or so your total investment.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> If we are talking about energy conservation, there are other steps
> too, that are much cheaper and low-tech.
>
> a.  passive solar energy--if you get an old water heater and paint it
> black and put it where the sun will shine on it, that will get the
> water pretty hot, and if you can pump it back into your system, you
> could save a lot of $ on heating it.
>
> b.  high thermal mass buildings--adobe, mud, stone, and strawbale
> homes, with thick 13"+ walls can save heating energy and cooling
> energy, especially with minimal windows and great insulation.  Houses
> can also be covered in dirt or partially buried (imagine a house
> covered with flowers!).
>
> c.  window size and placement can help heat a cold home, or help keep
> a hot one cooler.
>
> d.  growing trees to shade the house can help keep a house cool, and
> is especially good if you use native trees
>
> e.  solar walls, solar windows, and sunspaces can be designed to help
> retain heat.
>
> These are low-tech, cheap (most of these are used by the poorest of
> the poor), and could make a huge difference in the amount of energy
> needed for a comfortable home.  We are mostly talking mud, black
> paint, and plants here.  I used to live in an adobe home, and I hope
> to again if I stay here in the Southwest.

Miguel are you guys considering moving somewhere else?

Here is a link to my best friend , and the guy who built the main part
my house in Taos.
http://www.oneearthdesign.com/green_building_articles.html
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-20 15:21:21 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 19, 9:53 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 19, 4:10 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 18, 1:47 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 18, 11:30 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 18, 11:44 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 17, 2:26 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > >>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > > > > > >>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > > > > > >>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
> > > > > > >>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
> > > > > > >> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> > > > > > >> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> > > > > > > Non other than Bill Richardson.  Don't forget the small town I come
> > > > > > > from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
>
> > > > > > My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
> > > > > > the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
> > > > > > woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
> > > > > > the panels on your property.
>
> > > > > Last time I bought solar panels there was a waiting list of about 3
> > > > > months, because Germany was buying them all up.  Italy is is one of
> > > > > the most progressive countries these days as well in alt energy.  I
> > > > > could be mistaken but I heard the Vatican is going solar.
>
> > > > >   I would like to convert my house in Santa Fe over to solar, but that
> > > > > would cost me about $25,000 for a good system, thesedays you can sell
> > > > > your excess energy back to the grid and at the end of the month the
> > > > > power company pays you.  Unfortunatey without govt. incentives and tax
> > > > > breaks like Germany and other progressive countires provide, recouping
> > > > > your inetial investment can take ages.
>
> > > > >   Richard Savino told me he plans to convert his house near Berkeley
> > > > > over to solar, and buy an electric car for his commute to work, free
> > > > > energy, minus the intial investment.  But hey allota people pay
> > > > > $50.000 just for there cars anyway.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > There are tax incintives.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8998516/
> > > > The mistake has been the cheap energy policy of the last 30 years. You
> > > > will note a 10% reduction in oil consumption, and demand for fuel
> > > > efficent cars in the last year
>
> > > I don't think the tax incentives are enough. I estimated the cost of
> > > converting my house to Solar is about $25,000 ( I paid $20,000 for my
> > > system in Taos), that's because I can do most of the installation
> > > myself.  Savino estimated the cost of doing his house around $50,000
> > > to $60.000 in California.  So a Govt. tax credit of $4000.00 isn't
> > > very encouraging.  Bush gives you more tax breaks if you buy an SUV.
>
> > >   I would rather see this country use the European models for tax
> > > credits,  I believe Norway , and Germany have very aggressive
> > > incentives that if I not mistaken end up paying you back after ten
> > > years or so your total investment.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > If we are talking about energy conservation, there are other steps
> > too, that are much cheaper and low-tech.
>
> > a.  passive solar energy--if you get an old water heater and paint it
> > black and put it where the sun will shine on it, that will get the
> > water pretty hot, and if you can pump it back into your system, you
> > could save a lot of $ on heating it.
>
> > b.  high thermal mass buildings--adobe, mud, stone, and strawbale
> > homes, with thick 13"+ walls can save heating energy and cooling
> > energy, especially with minimal windows and great insulation.  Houses
> > can also be covered in dirt or partially buried (imagine a house
> > covered with flowers!).
>
> > c.  window size and placement can help heat a cold home, or help keep
> > a hot one cooler.
>
> > d.  growing trees to shade the house can help keep a house cool, and
> > is especially good if you use native trees
>
> > e.  solar walls, solar windows, and sunspaces can be designed to help
> > retain heat.
>
> > These are low-tech, cheap (most of these are used by the poorest of
> > the poor), and could make a huge difference in the amount of energy
> > needed for a comfortable home.  We are mostly talking mud, black
> > paint, and plants here.  I used to live in an adobe home, and I hope
> > to again if I stay here in the Southwest.
>
> Miguel are you guys considering moving somewhere else?
>
> Here is a link to my best friend , and the guy who built the main part
> my house in Taos.http://www.oneearthdesign.com/green_building_articles.html- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Michael,
that is cool, I'll peruse that site in more detail later today.

If things go all to hell, and I mean Dirty Thirties or Weimarch
Germany style, then we plan to load up and escape to Seattle. This
area is too conservative, racist, and poor in natural resources for us
to live here if things get hairy.
Slogoin
2008-10-20 15:45:58 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 8:21 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> If things go all to hell, and I mean Dirty Thirties or Weimarch
> Germany style, then we plan to load up and escape to Seattle.  This
> area is too conservative, racist, and poor in natural resources for us
> to live here if things get hairy.

There are many places in this very wide world where a person with
an education can live quite well as long as they remember not to
threaten the local power structure too much. This is a very primitive
planet despite the amazing toys we play with.

As individuals, most of us never learn that, as a group, we have a
five-year-old view of the world... and Nukes!
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-20 17:20:23 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 8:45 am, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 8:21 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > If things go all to hell, and I mean Dirty Thirties or Weimarch
> > Germany style, then we plan to load up and escape to Seattle.  This
> > area is too conservative, racist, and poor in natural resources for us
> > to live here if things get hairy.
>
>     There are many places in this very wide world where a person with
> an education can live quite well as long as they remember not to
> threaten the local power structure too much. This is a very primitive
> planet despite the amazing toys we play with.
>
>   As individuals, most of us never learn that, as a group, we have a
> five-year-old view of the world... and Nukes!

Even a cursory reading of our vanishingly small history shows the same
processes over and over again. Have you read any of the Riverworld
books?
Slogoin
2008-10-20 17:29:12 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 10:20 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Even a cursory reading of our vanishingly small history shows the same
> processes over and over again.

Vanishingly small? How so? Math history alone is so large that
nobody can read enough in one lifetime to keep up with just the stuff
that has happened in our lifetime.

> Have you read any of the Riverworld books?

Yes. Read Farmer years ago. NNUTS.
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-20 17:38:31 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 10:29 am, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 10:20 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Even a cursory reading of our vanishingly small history shows the same
> > processes over and over again.
>
>   Vanishingly small? How so? Math history alone is so large that
> nobody can read enough in one lifetime to keep up with just the stuff
> that has happened in our lifetime.

You think 4000 years is a long time? Interesting. I consider a
lifetime but the blink of an eye.

Obviously technology/science has exploded over the last 200 years, but
the basic processes of societal interaction don't seem to have changed
much. Demagogues use the same language, the scum still rises to the
top, bankers are still thieves, people still believe in both
superstitious and secular fairy tales--basically hunter-gatherer
behavior in an ant-colony-like world.

Despite logic having been codified and writted down 3000 years ago,
people routinely argue from the converse without thinking twice about
it. NNUTS indeed.
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-20 17:32:41 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 9:45 am, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 8:21 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > If things go all to hell, and I mean Dirty Thirties or Weimarch
> > Germany style, then we plan to load up and escape to Seattle.  This
> > area is too conservative, racist, and poor in natural resources for us
> > to live here if things get hairy.
>
>     There are many places in this very wide world where a person with
> an education can live quite well as long as they remember not to
> threaten the local power structure too much. This is a very primitive
> planet despite the amazing toys we play with.
>
>   As individuals, most of us never learn that, as a group, we have a
> five-year-old view of the world... and Nukes!

Larry did aliens channel this information to you? That's what they
have been telling me too!
Slogoin
2008-10-20 17:39:19 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 10:32 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Larry did aliens channel this information to you?  That's what they
> have been telling me too!

No. I am an alien and there is no such thing as "channeling". That's
just another human superstition.

Tiger got to hunt,
Bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder, "Why, why, why?"
Tiger got to sleep,
Bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.
-Bokonon
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-20 17:53:39 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 11:39 am, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 10:32 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > Larry did aliens channel this information to you?  That's what they
> > have been telling me too!
>
> No. I am an alien and there is no such thing as "channeling". That's
> just another human superstition.
>
> Tiger got to hunt,
> Bird got to fly;
> Man got to sit and wonder, "Why, why, why?"
> Tiger got to sleep,
> Bird got to land;
> Man got to tell himself he understand.
> -Bokonon

Yes exactly so..... carry wood chop water!
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-20 17:48:14 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 9:21 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Oct 19, 9:53 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 4:10 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 18, 1:47 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 18, 11:30 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 18, 11:44 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Oct 17, 2:26 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > > > > > > >>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > > > > > > >>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
> > > > > > > >>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
> > > > > > > >> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> > > > > > > >> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> > > > > > > > Non other than Bill Richardson.  Don't forget the small town I come
> > > > > > > > from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
>
> > > > > > > My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
> > > > > > > the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
> > > > > > > woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
> > > > > > > the panels on your property.
>
> > > > > > Last time I bought solar panels there was a waiting list of about 3
> > > > > > months, because Germany was buying them all up.  Italy is is one of
> > > > > > the most progressive countries these days as well in alt energy.  I
> > > > > > could be mistaken but I heard the Vatican is going solar.
>
> > > > > >   I would like to convert my house in Santa Fe over to solar, but that
> > > > > > would cost me about $25,000 for a good system, thesedays you can sell
> > > > > > your excess energy back to the grid and at the end of the month the
> > > > > > power company pays you.  Unfortunatey without govt. incentives and tax
> > > > > > breaks like Germany and other progressive countires provide, recouping
> > > > > > your inetial investment can take ages.
>
> > > > > >   Richard Savino told me he plans to convert his house near Berkeley
> > > > > > over to solar, and buy an electric car for his commute to work, free
> > > > > > energy, minus the intial investment.  But hey allota people pay
> > > > > > $50.000 just for there cars anyway.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > There are tax incintives.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8998516/
> > > > > The mistake has been the cheap energy policy of the last 30 years. You
> > > > > will note a 10% reduction in oil consumption, and demand for fuel
> > > > > efficent cars in the last year
>
> > > > I don't think the tax incentives are enough. I estimated the cost of
> > > > converting my house to Solar is about $25,000 ( I paid $20,000 for my
> > > > system in Taos), that's because I can do most of the installation
> > > > myself.  Savino estimated the cost of doing his house around $50,000
> > > > to $60.000 in California.  So a Govt. tax credit of $4000.00 isn't
> > > > very encouraging.  Bush gives you more tax breaks if you buy an SUV.
>
> > > >   I would rather see this country use the European models for tax
> > > > credits,  I believe Norway , and Germany have very aggressive
> > > > incentives that if I not mistaken end up paying you back after ten
> > > > years or so your total investment.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > If we are talking about energy conservation, there are other steps
> > > too, that are much cheaper and low-tech.
>
> > > a.  passive solar energy--if you get an old water heater and paint it
> > > black and put it where the sun will shine on it, that will get the
> > > water pretty hot, and if you can pump it back into your system, you
> > > could save a lot of $ on heating it.
>
> > > b.  high thermal mass buildings--adobe, mud, stone, and strawbale
> > > homes, with thick 13"+ walls can save heating energy and cooling
> > > energy, especially with minimal windows and great insulation.  Houses
> > > can also be covered in dirt or partially buried (imagine a house
> > > covered with flowers!).
>
> > > c.  window size and placement can help heat a cold home, or help keep
> > > a hot one cooler.
>
> > > d.  growing trees to shade the house can help keep a house cool, and
> > > is especially good if you use native trees
>
> > > e.  solar walls, solar windows, and sunspaces can be designed to help
> > > retain heat.
>
> > > These are low-tech, cheap (most of these are used by the poorest of
> > > the poor), and could make a huge difference in the amount of energy
> > > needed for a comfortable home.  We are mostly talking mud, black
> > > paint, and plants here.  I used to live in an adobe home, and I hope
> > > to again if I stay here in the Southwest.
>
> > Miguel are you guys considering moving somewhere else?
>
> > Here is a link to my best friend , and the guy who built the main part
> > my house in Taos.http://www.oneearthdesign.com/green_building_articles.html-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Michael,
> that is cool, I'll peruse that site in more detail later today.

MIguel be sure to check out pictures of the houses he built, truly
works of art, Joaquin is a genius. He and his friend from Germany
Charlie ( a Structural engineer) Charlie likes to take the summers off
an camp out on the mesa all summer. My house was the first they built
in America back in 92.
>
> If things go all to hell, and I mean Dirty Thirties or Weimarch
> Germany style, then we plan to load up and escape to Seattle.  This
> area is too conservative, racist, and poor in natural resources for us
> to live here if things get hairy.

You guys will do well where ever you go. You should consider Santa
Fe. Lots of opportunity for gigs, you would fit right in here. Ottmor
Liebert used to play in a local hotel before he made it to the big
time. Back in the mid 70's I played at the Inn Of Lorretto, 5 nights
a week, was a bellboy there during the day, then weddings and parties
on the weekends, made a damn fortune!

Funny thing, we just rented our Taos house out last weekend. We
advertised on Craigs list and got calls from all over the country.
The last two people we narrowed it down to, sighted the reason for
moving here was to get away from their conservative neighbors. The
people we finally decieded on bought a house in a suburb of Albuq. and
couldn't deal with all the McCain supporters in their vicinity. The
guy was a finacial officer for Wells Fargo, and got a job for the Taos
News.
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-20 18:08:34 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 10:48 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 20, 9:21 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 19, 9:53 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 19, 4:10 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 18, 1:47 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 18, 11:30 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Oct 18, 11:44 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Oct 17, 2:26 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Oct 17, 12:49 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> On Oct 17, 8:36 am, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > >>>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > > > > > > > >>>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > > > > > > > >>>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
> > > > > > > > >>> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
> > > > > > > > >> Ya but he got a magna-lev 300 MPH super-train - we ain't getting shit!
> > > > > > > > >> He should be laying prostrate before the NM liberals!
>
> > > > > > > > > Non other than Bill Richardson.  Don't forget the small town I come
> > > > > > > > > from (Taos) is called the "Solar Capitol of the World".
>
> > > > > > > > My guess is in a couple of years or very shortly, solar power will be
> > > > > > > > the preferred electricity source for running a house in your neck of the
> > > > > > > > woods due to developments in the technology and the ability to lay out
> > > > > > > > the panels on your property.
>
> > > > > > > Last time I bought solar panels there was a waiting list of about 3
> > > > > > > months, because Germany was buying them all up.  Italy is is one of
> > > > > > > the most progressive countries these days as well in alt energy.  I
> > > > > > > could be mistaken but I heard the Vatican is going solar.
>
> > > > > > >   I would like to convert my house in Santa Fe over to solar, but that
> > > > > > > would cost me about $25,000 for a good system, thesedays you can sell
> > > > > > > your excess energy back to the grid and at the end of the month the
> > > > > > > power company pays you.  Unfortunatey without govt. incentives and tax
> > > > > > > breaks like Germany and other progressive countires provide, recouping
> > > > > > > your inetial investment can take ages.
>
> > > > > > >   Richard Savino told me he plans to convert his house near Berkeley
> > > > > > > over to solar, and buy an electric car for his commute to work, free
> > > > > > > energy, minus the intial investment.  But hey allota people pay
> > > > > > > $50.000 just for there cars anyway.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > There are tax incintives.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8998516/
> > > > > > The mistake has been the cheap energy policy of the last 30 years. You
> > > > > > will note a 10% reduction in oil consumption, and demand for fuel
> > > > > > efficent cars in the last year
>
> > > > > I don't think the tax incentives are enough. I estimated the cost of
> > > > > converting my house to Solar is about $25,000 ( I paid $20,000 for my
> > > > > system in Taos), that's because I can do most of the installation
> > > > > myself.  Savino estimated the cost of doing his house around $50,000
> > > > > to $60.000 in California.  So a Govt. tax credit of $4000.00 isn't
> > > > > very encouraging.  Bush gives you more tax breaks if you buy an SUV.
>
> > > > >   I would rather see this country use the European models for tax
> > > > > credits,  I believe Norway , and Germany have very aggressive
> > > > > incentives that if I not mistaken end up paying you back after ten
> > > > > years or so your total investment.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > If we are talking about energy conservation, there are other steps
> > > > too, that are much cheaper and low-tech.
>
> > > > a.  passive solar energy--if you get an old water heater and paint it
> > > > black and put it where the sun will shine on it, that will get the
> > > > water pretty hot, and if you can pump it back into your system, you
> > > > could save a lot of $ on heating it.
>
> > > > b.  high thermal mass buildings--adobe, mud, stone, and strawbale
> > > > homes, with thick 13"+ walls can save heating energy and cooling
> > > > energy, especially with minimal windows and great insulation.  Houses
> > > > can also be covered in dirt or partially buried (imagine a house
> > > > covered with flowers!).
>
> > > > c.  window size and placement can help heat a cold home, or help keep
> > > > a hot one cooler.
>
> > > > d.  growing trees to shade the house can help keep a house cool, and
> > > > is especially good if you use native trees
>
> > > > e.  solar walls, solar windows, and sunspaces can be designed to help
> > > > retain heat.
>
> > > > These are low-tech, cheap (most of these are used by the poorest of
> > > > the poor), and could make a huge difference in the amount of energy
> > > > needed for a comfortable home.  We are mostly talking mud, black
> > > > paint, and plants here.  I used to live in an adobe home, and I hope
> > > > to again if I stay here in the Southwest.
>
> > > Miguel are you guys considering moving somewhere else?
>
> > > Here is a link to my best friend , and the guy who built the main part
> > > my house in Taos.http://www.oneearthdesign.com/green_building_articles.html-Hidequoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Michael,
> > that is cool, I'll peruse that site in more detail later today.
>
>     MIguel be sure to check out pictures of the houses he built, truly
> works of art, Joaquin is a genius.  He and his friend from Germany
> Charlie ( a Structural engineer) Charlie likes to take the summers off
> an camp out on the mesa all summer.  My house was the first they built
> in America back in 92.
>
>
>
> > If things go all to hell, and I mean Dirty Thirties or Weimarch
> > Germany style, then we plan to load up and escape to Seattle.  This
> > area is too conservative, racist, and poor in natural resources for us
> > to live here if things get hairy.
>
>   You guys will do well where ever you go. You should consider Santa
> Fe. Lots of opportunity for gigs, you would fit right in here.  Ottmor
> Liebert used to play in a local hotel before he made it to the big
> time.  Back in the mid 70's I played at the Inn Of Lorretto, 5 nights
> a week, was a bellboy there during the day, then weddings and parties
> on the weekends, made a damn fortune!
>
>  Funny thing, we just rented our Taos house out last weekend.  We
> advertised on Craigs list and got calls from all over the country.
> The last two people we narrowed it down to, sighted the reason for
> moving here was to get away from their conservative neighbors.  The
> people we finally decieded on bought a house in a suburb of Albuq. and
> couldn't deal with all the McCain supporters in their vicinity.  The
> guy was a finacial officer for Wells Fargo, and got a job for the Taos
> News.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hilarious!

Thanks for the kind words, but there are too many good players in
Santa Fe for me--I'd get slaughtered! Anyway, there's not enough
water and too much sage in the air!

Your friend is quite awesome, and his website is great. One thing, is
that in the future, we won't be able to use much oil, so we'll need to
come up with sustainable building techniques and materials. That's
why I think mud and straw will be here before you know it. It may
soon be hard to get glass, metal, and even wood for studs.
dsi1
2008-10-17 19:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Wollybird wrote:
>> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
>> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
>> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
>
> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much

More information on this: Mayor Mufi's $4,000,000,000+, 15 mile proposal
is called a light rail system patterned after some systems currently
used in Asia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOE-VIXe-mw

I hate to think of what you got for $1357/inch. :-)
Wollybird
2008-10-17 20:13:57 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 2:46 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
> Wollybird wrote:
> >> This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> >> that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> >> using their fake lowball figures. :-)
>
> > That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
>
> More information on this: Mayor Mufi's $4,000,000,000+, 15 mile proposal
> is called a light rail system patterned after some systems currently
> used in Asia.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOE-VIXe-mw
>
> I hate to think of what you got for $1357/inch. :-)

$4,000,000,000! Tell Mayor Mufi that I'll personally carry those
people in a rickshaw for half that
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-17 20:11:55 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 12:36 pm, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> > This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > using their fake lowball figures. :-)
>
> That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much

Wolli isn't that what you've spent all year on your penis enlargemant
pills? $1357.00 per inch?
Wollybird
2008-10-17 20:29:55 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 3:11 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 17, 12:36 pm, Wollybird <***@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > > This comes out to $1357 per inch. That is such a deal! I'm guessing
> > > that our system will cost several times that per inch - and that's
> > > using their fake lowball figures. :-)
>
> > That's not bad, considering tashi paid at least twice that much
>
> Wolli isn't that what you've spent all year on your penis enlargemant
> pills? $1357.00 per inch?

A bit slow today, aren't we?
Slogoin
2008-10-17 18:44:19 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 11:32 am, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
>
> 1357 is also the first four prime numbers and the address of the house
> I grew up in. Coincidence? I think not!


Ha, yeah... that's if that's the first four primes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_number

Besides, the proper word in RMCG is conspiracy which is never
coincidental.

Poor two... the lone nonoddball prime, forgotten and lonely but not
the odd one out... that's ONE... the loneliest one who's identity is
uneven at best even as he's needed to know who's prime.
dsi1
2008-10-17 19:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Slogoin wrote:
> On Oct 17, 11:32 am, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
>> 1357 is also the first four prime numbers and the address of the house
>> I grew up in. Coincidence? I think not!
>
>
> Ha, yeah... that's if that's the first four primes!
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_number
>
> Besides, the proper word in RMCG is conspiracy which is never
> coincidental.
>
> Poor two... the lone nonoddball prime, forgotten and lonely but not
> the odd one out... that's ONE... the loneliest one who's identity is
> uneven at best even as he's needed to know who's prime.
>

Well, that pretty much snuffs out my conspiracy theory. Now I get it -
one is the loneliest number! :-)
catpandaddy
2008-10-17 22:54:18 UTC
Permalink
"dsi1" <***@spamworld.com> wrote in message
news:or-***@hawaiiantel.net...
> Slogoin wrote:
>> On Oct 17, 11:32 am, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
>>> 1357 is also the first four prime numbers and the address of the house
>>> I grew up in. Coincidence? I think not!
>>
>>
>> Ha, yeah... that's if that's the first four primes!
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_number
>>
>> Besides, the proper word in RMCG is conspiracy which is never
>> coincidental.
>>
>> Poor two... the lone nonoddball prime, forgotten and lonely but not
>> the odd one out... that's ONE... the loneliest one who's identity is
>> uneven at best even as he's needed to know who's prime.
>>
>
> Well, that pretty much snuffs out my conspiracy theory. Now I get it - one
> is the loneliest number! :-)

But two can be as bad as one.
dsi1
2008-10-17 23:20:41 UTC
Permalink
catpandaddy wrote:

>>
>> Well, that pretty much snuffs out my conspiracy theory. Now I get it -
>> one is the loneliest number! :-)
>
> But two can be as bad as one.

I can see clearly now. Three Dog Night was a favorite group of mine in
high school - I traded Ralph Jones all my Ten Years After albums for his
TDNs. Some folks might say that's like exchanging Rush for Cheap Trick
but I consider it a smart trade and have never looked back since.

Oddly enough, Harry Neilson died at age 53 - a prime number and also the
two digits make up one half of the digits in the number of dollars it
takes to build a really cheap mass transit system. Coincidence? You be
the judge!
catpandaddy
2008-10-18 20:02:48 UTC
Permalink
"dsi1" <***@spamworld.com> wrote in message
news:***@hawaiiantel.net...
> catpandaddy wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Well, that pretty much snuffs out my conspiracy theory. Now I get it -
>>> one is the loneliest number! :-)
>>
>> But two can be as bad as one.
>
> I can see clearly now. Three Dog Night was a favorite group of mine in
> high school - I traded Ralph Jones all my Ten Years After albums for his
> TDNs. Some folks might say that's like exchanging Rush for Cheap Trick

Naught wrong with that, alt.music.rush is full of Cheap Trick fans.
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-17 19:55:03 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 12:44 pm, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
> On Oct 17, 11:32 am, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > 1357 is also the first four prime numbers and the address of the house
> > I grew up in. Coincidence? I think not!
>
> Ha, yeah... that's if that's the first four primes!
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_number
>
> Besides, the proper word in RMCG is conspiracy which is never
> coincidental.
>
>   Poor two... the lone nonoddball prime, forgotten and lonely but not
> the odd one out... that's ONE... the loneliest one who's identity is
> uneven at best even as he's needed to know who's prime.

Slowgoin, truly the best derailment I've witnessed to date! Another
example of Slowgoin's Razor in action!
catpandaddy
2008-10-17 22:49:55 UTC
Permalink
"dsi1" <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote in message
news:80a94371-9fa3-47c7-b1a2-***@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

> 1357 is also the first four prime numbers and the address of the house I
> grew up in. Coincidence? I think not!

Except that 2 is also a prime number.
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-17 16:37:09 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 16, 7:49 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
> Miguel de Maria wrote:
> > Kevin,
> > The Right often conflates capitalism with patriotism, in the equation
> > Communist = Traitor.  Then it becomes Liberal = Communist = Traitor.
> > More educated right-wingers often do not go this far, but it is an
> > omnipresent strategy and belief in most of the Right.  If you have not
> > heard it, then I must commend you on avoiding Rush Limbaugh and Fox
> > News.
>
> You might find this interesting:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI


And you ridicule me for suggesting 911 was an inside job? I only
recently became aware of Naomi Wolf, but I must say I don't think she
is far off the mark. Here is the quote by the the California
Congressman, about threats of Marshall law. I guess time will tell, we
shall see what shakes loose in a few weeks from now. I know one
thing, these Rupublicans ( Wolli's spelling) ain't going quietly into
the night on November 5th.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaG9d_4zij8
dsi1
2008-10-17 18:38:54 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 6:37 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 16, 7:49 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
> > Miguel de Maria wrote:
> > > Kevin,
> > > The Right often conflates capitalism with patriotism, in the equation
> > > Communist = Traitor.  Then it becomes Liberal = Communist = Traitor.
> > > More educated right-wingers often do not go this far, but it is an
> > > omnipresent strategy and belief in most of the Right.  If you have not
> > > heard it, then I must commend you on avoiding Rush Limbaugh and Fox
> > > News.
>
> > You might find this interesting:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI
>
> And you ridicule me for suggesting 911 was an inside job?  I only
> recently became aware of Naomi Wolf,  but I must say I don't think she
> is far off the mark.  Here is the quote by the the California
> Congressman, about threats of Marshall law. I guess time will tell, we
> shall see what shakes loose in a few weeks from now.  I know one
> thing, these Rupublicans ( Wolli's spelling) ain't going quietly into
> the night on November 5th.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaG9d_4zij8

Good point. However, I put that link up for your consideration. This
does not mean I believe it's true. If history has taught us anything,
it is that "it can't happen here." :-)
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-17 19:52:35 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 17, 12:38 pm, dsi1 <***@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:
> On Oct 17, 6:37 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 16, 7:49 pm, dsi1 <***@spamworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > Miguel de Maria wrote:
> > > > Kevin,
> > > > The Right often conflates capitalism with patriotism, in the equation
> > > > Communist = Traitor.  Then it becomes Liberal = Communist = Traitor.
> > > > More educated right-wingers often do not go this far, but it is an
> > > > omnipresent strategy and belief in most of the Right.  If you have not
> > > > heard it, then I must commend you on avoiding Rush Limbaugh and Fox
> > > > News.
>
> > > You might find this interesting:
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI
>
> > And you ridicule me for suggesting 911 was an inside job?  I only
> > recently became aware of Naomi Wolf,  but I must say I don't think she
> > is far off the mark.  Here is the quote by the the California
> > Congressman, about threats of Marshall law. I guess time will tell, we
> > shall see what shakes loose in a few weeks from now.  I know one
> > thing, these Rupublicans ( Wolli's spelling) ain't going quietly into
> > the night on November 5th.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaG9d_4zij8
>
> Good point. However, I put that link up for your consideration. This
> does not mean I believe it's true. If history has taught us anything,
> it is that "it can't happen here." :-)

I sincerely hope you are right!
Slogoin
2008-10-20 17:55:53 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 10:38 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> You think 4000 years is a long time?

Yes. In dog years it's even longer!

> Interesting.  I consider a lifetime but the blink of an eye.

Depends on the perspective of your eye.

> Obviously technology/science has exploded over the last 200 years,

Yet it's still something most people know very little about.

> but the basic processes of societal interaction don't seem to have changed much.

Of course not. Biology changes slower than technology.

> Demagogues use the same language, the scum still rises to the
> top, bankers are still thieves, people still believe in both
> superstitious and secular fairy tales--basically hunter-gatherer
> behavior in an ant-colony-like world.

Wow. You really hate bankers. The 80/20 rule has not changed. Humans
are still human and still enjoy the same basic things in life.

> Despite logic having been codified and writted down 3000 years ago,
> people routinely argue from the converse without thinking twice about
> it.  NNUTS indeed.

Logic was not "codified" until symbolic logic took over the
planet, while most people ignored what was happening. If you are not
familiar with the "calculus" of logic you may find it interesting
compared to what most people think is logic.
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-20 18:18:24 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 10:55 am, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 10:38 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You think 4000 years is a long time?
>
> Yes. In dog years it's even longer!

Sounds like you live in tortoise years.

>
> > Interesting.  I consider a lifetime but the blink of an eye.
>
> Depends on the perspective of your eye.

I blink slower than Steve Forbes.

>
> > Obviously technology/science has exploded over the last 200 years,
>
> Yet it's still something most people know very little about.

That's why we have you... and Wikipedia.

>
> > but the basic processes of societal interaction don't seem to have changed much.
>
> Of course not. Biology changes slower than technology.

Hmm, I hope it doesn't come down to that. Whatever happened to
cultural evolution? We certainly use hard technology, why not soft?

>
> > Demagogues use the same language, the scum still rises to the
> > top, bankers are still thieves, people still believe in both
> > superstitious and secular fairy tales--basically hunter-gatherer
> > behavior in an ant-colony-like world.
>
>   Wow. You really hate bankers. The 80/20 rule has not changed. Humans
> are still human and still enjoy the same basic things in life.

Yes, banksters are human, but they are in a position to step on our
throats. I also happen to hate war profiteers and fascists and
torturers and other people who cause human suffering for their gain.
Maybe that's why we should raise taxes on their asses. Notice that
usury, (charging interest) was a crime in many ancient societies. I
don't understand how you are applying the 80/20 rule.

>
> > Despite logic having been codified and writted down 3000 years ago,
> > people routinely argue from the converse without thinking twice about
> > it.  NNUTS indeed.
>
>     Logic was not "codified" until symbolic logic took over the
> planet, while most people ignored what was happening. If you are not
> familiar with the "calculus" of logic you may find it interesting
> compared to what most people think is logic.

You silly CS geek! Logic was codified with the Greeks, although they
probably stole the ideas from earlier, brown-skinned races. You know
p -> q and so forth?

What most people think is logic is a vernacular definition which
roughly means: "Whatever my particular medulla oblongata,
rationalized by the cerebrum, tells me to think."
Slogoin
2008-10-20 18:39:16 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 11:18 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Sounds like you live in tortoise years.

Closer to human years than any other animal on Earth.

> > Of course not. Biology changes slower than technology.
>
> Hmm, I hope it doesn't come down to that.  Whatever happened to
> cultural evolution?  We certainly use hard technology, why not soft?

Cultural "evolution" is a myth as are most of the things we come up
with that "explain" the why of this world.

>  I don't understand how you are applying the 80/20 rule.

I don't apply it, it just is what we do... and don't do. It's who
we are.

> You silly CS geek!  Logic was codified with the Greeks, although they
> probably stole the ideas from earlier, brown-skinned races.  You know
> p -> q and so forth?

I think you need to read up on this some more if you want to know
what has happened in the last couple of centuries to "logic". Contrary
to popular belief the ideas of folks in the past were not better than
what is available today to any who choose to learn.

> What most people think is logic is a vernacular definition which
> roughly means:  "Whatever my particular medulla oblongata,
> rationalized by the cerebrum, tells me to think."

I think most people think, like you, that logic is something the
Greeks perfected. Most people do not have a clue what has happened to
this planet in the last 200 years that makes it so different from the
rest of our short history. We are poorly equipped to deal with the
social changes we are experiencing that are a direct result of our
"progress" in science and technology. We lag way behind the relentless
advances of technology when it comes to over coming our tribal biology.
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-20 19:06:35 UTC
Permalink
>
>    Cultural "evolution" is a myth as are most of the things we come up
> with that "explain" the why of this world.

So now you have deified science so that it is no longer part of
culture.

>
> >  I don't understand how you are applying the 80/20 rule.
>
>    I don't apply it, it just is what we do... and don't do. It's who
> we are.

You realize I don't know what you mean, you can explain or not...

>
> > You silly CS geek!  Logic was codified with the Greeks, although they
> > probably stole the ideas from earlier, brown-skinned races.  You know
> > p -> q and so forth?
>
>    I think you need to read up on this some more if you want to know
> what has happened in the last couple of centuries to "logic". Contrary
> to popular belief the ideas of folks in the past were not better than
> what is available today to any who choose to learn.

This is a non-sequitur, which was understood 3000 years ago. If the
average person is not even competent to use simple models of cause and
effect and other elementary logical processes, how is he to understand
these newfangled constructions? Is one to skip arithmetic and start
on calculus? I am not arguing that there are probably wonderful new
thought paradigms, but when the general population is as
intellectually impoverished as they are, I don't understand the
objection to starting with the basics.

>
> > What most people think is logic is a vernacular definition which
> > roughly means:  "Whatever my particular medulla oblongata,
> > rationalized by the cerebrum, tells me to think."
>
>    I think most people think, like you, that logic is something the
> Greeks perfected. Most people do not have a clue what has happened to
> this planet in the last 200 years that makes it so different from the
> rest of our short  history. We are poorly equipped to deal with the
> social changes we are experiencing that are a direct result of our
> "progress" in science and technology. We lag way behind the relentless
> advances of technology when it comes to over coming our tribal biology.


Again, it's not a question of perfection but simply of starting with
the basics. You may very well be on a higher plane, but the average
person sure isn't. I would certainly like to know what is so
different that geometric increases in population, atomization, and
interactivity do not explain.

I wonder if you are arguing that if the average person skipped
classical logic and jumped right into C++ that the world would be a
better place?
Slogoin
2008-10-20 23:04:45 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 12:06 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

> You realize I don't know what you mean, you can explain or not...

I can explain but I doubt it will mean more than what I already said.

> This is a non-sequitur, which was understood 3000 years ago.  If the
> average person is not even competent to use simple models of cause and
> effect and other elementary logical processes, how is he to understand
> these newfangled constructions?  Is one to skip arithmetic and start
> on calculus?  I am not arguing that there are probably wonderful new
> thought paradigms, but when the general population is as
> intellectually impoverished as they are, I don't understand the
> objection to starting with the basics.

What are the basics to you?

> Again, it's not a question of perfection but simply of starting with
> the basics.  You may very well be on a higher plane, but the average
> person sure isn't.  I would certainly like to know what is so
> different that geometric increases in population, atomization, and
> interactivity do not explain.

Again, it all depends on what you think are the basics.

> I wonder if you are arguing that if the average person skipped
> classical logic and jumped right into C++ that the world would be a
> better place?

When I was in 8th grade my math teacher built a Radio Shack
computer in the classroom. Some of us would spend lunch with him and
his little "computer" which looked more like a glorified switchboard.
We learned to "program" (plug in wires) it and read the lights where
the answer was displayed in base two. We also learned to play games
like Nim and learned some fun maths along the way. That was eight
grade.

Maths, like language, is not just about pushing symbols. We can
teach language and math as part of everything we study but only if we
know both math and language.
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-21 01:31:27 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 4:04 pm, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 12:06 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > You realize I don't know what you mean, you can explain or not...
>
> I can explain but I doubt it will mean more than what I already said.

OK.

>
> > This is a non-sequitur, which was understood 3000 years ago.  If the
> > average person is not even competent to use simple models of cause and
> > effect and other elementary logical processes, how is he to understand
> > these newfangled constructions?  Is one to skip arithmetic and start
> > on calculus?  I am not arguing that there are probably wonderful new
> > thought paradigms, but when the general population is as
> > intellectually impoverished as they are, I don't understand the
> > objection to starting with the basics.
>
>   What are the basics to you?

Given p->q; q->p does not follow, nor does ~p->~q; but ~q->~p does.
Simple knowledge of patterns of perception bias.
A review of how human memory works.
Simple stats.
An introduction to the main branches of science.
Some history of democracy that is not simply American
indoctrinization.
Study of how slogans are used to simplify and reframe perception and
influence others.

These are the first that come to mind.

> > I wonder if you are arguing that if the average person skipped
> > classical logic and jumped right into C++ that the world would be a
> > better place?
>
>    When I was in 8th grade my math teacher built a Radio Shack
> computer in the classroom. Some of us would spend lunch with him and
> his little "computer" which looked more like a glorified switchboard.
> We learned to "program" (plug in wires) it and read the lights where
> the answer was displayed in base two. We also learned to play games
> like Nim and learned some fun maths along the way. That was eight
> grade.

That's a damn fine way of teaching. It seems to me that many of the
elements I mentioned above would also be touched on by this mode. You
could do this in 1st grade, though, maybe earlier.

>
>     Maths, like language, is not just about pushing symbols. We can
> teach language and math as part of everything we study but only if we
> know both math and language.

Are you aware of the Doman Method? It is unproven and unscientific,
but it starts off (in math), by flashing large red dots at the
infant. Supposedly, we all have the ability to perceive quantity but
lose it at some point. The cards go up to 100. Equations are then
taught by using those cards of dots. Symbols never come into it, only
the real deal. There are two reasons I think it would work: one,
supposedly we are born with perfect pitch and lose it if we aren't
trained or exposed to keyboard instruments, and two, supposedly we can
tell monkey faces apart at birth, but lose that later, too.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/parenting/05/16/baby.brains/index.html
Slogoin
2008-10-21 02:10:39 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 6:31 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >   What are the basics to you?
>
> Given p->q; q->p does not follow, nor does ~p->~q; but ~q->~p does.
> Simple knowledge of patterns of perception bias.
> A review of how human memory works.
> Simple stats.
> An introduction to the main branches of science.
> Some history of democracy that is not simply American indoctrinization.
> Study of how slogans are used to simplify and reframe perception and
> influence others.
>
> These are the first that come to mind.

Interesting list but I'm not sure what you are aiming for. This is
not logic. A simple truth table is a good place to start for most
people unfamiliar with logic. Now if you were teaching rhetoric...

> That's a damn fine way of teaching.  It seems to me that many of the
> elements I mentioned above would also be touched on by this mode.  You
> could do this in 1st grade, though, maybe earlier.

Not sure how you see this connected to your list. For me it was
just fun to learn stuff not taught in the class and to work with
others who like to play with cool toys like computers.

> Are you aware of the Doman Method?

Only in passing.

>  It is unproven and unscientific,
> but it starts off (in math), by flashing large red dots at the
> infant.  Supposedly, we all have the ability to perceive quantity but
> lose it at some point.  The cards go up to 100.  Equations are then
> taught by using those cards of dots.  Symbols never come into it, only
> the real deal.  There are two reasons I think it would work: one,
> supposedly we are born with perfect pitch and lose it if we aren't
> trained or exposed to keyboard instruments, and two, supposedly we can
> tell monkey faces apart at birth, but lose that later, too.

Lots to learn about how we learn. I'm not so sure such things do
any good in the long run. There are way too many things we do wrong as
it is. Mostly we are just passing along too much garbage from one
generation to the other.
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-21 03:12:33 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 7:10 pm, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 6:31 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > >   What are the basics to you?
>
> > Given p->q; q->p does not follow, nor does ~p->~q; but ~q->~p does.
> > Simple knowledge of patterns of perception bias.
> > A review of how human memory works.
> > Simple stats.
> > An introduction to the main branches of science.
> > Some history of democracy that is not simply American indoctrinization.
> > Study of how slogans are used to simplify and reframe perception and
> > influence others.
>
> > These are the first that come to mind.
>
>  Interesting list but I'm not sure what you are aiming for. This is
> not logic. A simple truth table is a good place to start for most
> people unfamiliar with logic. Now if you were teaching rhetoric...

Okay, so everyone should know the truth table. Wouldn't such a
development improve the general level of discourse and perception?

>
> > That's a damn fine way of teaching.  It seems to me that many of the
> > elements I mentioned above would also be touched on by this mode.  You
> > could do this in 1st grade, though, maybe earlier.
>
>    Not sure how you see this connected to your list. For me it was
> just fun to learn stuff not taught in the class and to work with
> others who like to play with cool toys like computers.

I would think that messing around with circuits could build a certain
methodology to one's thought processes.

>
> > Are you aware of the Doman Method?
>
>   Only in passing.
>
> >  It is unproven and unscientific,
> > but it starts off (in math), by flashing large red dots at the
> > infant.  Supposedly, we all have the ability to perceive quantity but
> > lose it at some point.  The cards go up to 100.  Equations are then
> > taught by using those cards of dots.  Symbols never come into it, only
> > the real deal.  There are two reasons I think it would work: one,
> > supposedly we are born with perfect pitch and lose it if we aren't
> > trained or exposed to keyboard instruments, and two, supposedly we can
> > tell monkey faces apart at birth, but lose that later, too.
>
>     Lots to learn about how we learn. I'm not so sure such things do
> any good in the long run. There are way too many things we do wrong as
> it is. Mostly we are just passing along too much garbage from one
> generation to the other.

Perhaps, perhaps not. There is certainly a difference
between .......... and 10.

Check out the short story "When Sysadmins Ruled the World". I think
you would get a kick out of it. It's a story of "Nerds in Post-
Apocalyptic Earth". There should be some LOLs involved.

http://www.rakemag.com/fiction-humor/fiction/when-sysadmins-ruled-earth
Slogoin
2008-10-21 04:37:52 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 8:12 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Oct 20, 7:10 pm, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 6:31 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > >   What are the basics to you?
>
> > > Given p->q; q->p does not follow, nor does ~p->~q; but ~q->~p does.
> > > Simple knowledge of patterns of perception bias.
> > > A review of how human memory works.
> > > Simple stats.
> > > An introduction to the main branches of science.
> > > Some history of democracy that is not simply American indoctrinization.
> > > Study of how slogans are used to simplify and reframe perception and
> > > influence others.
>
> > > These are the first that come to mind.
>
> >  Interesting list but I'm not sure what you are aiming for. This is
> > not logic. A simple truth table is a good place to start for most
> > people unfamiliar with logic. Now if you were teaching rhetoric...
>
> Okay, so everyone should know the truth table.  Wouldn't such a
> development improve the general level of discourse and perception?

It might reduce the number of people who claim "logic" as proof of
their views.

> I would think that messing around with circuits could build a certain
> methodology to one's thought processes.

Messing around with math will do that.

> Check out the short story "When Sysadmins Ruled the World".  I think
> you would get a kick out of it.  It's a story of "Nerds in Post-
> Apocalyptic Earth".  There should be some LOLs involved.
>
> http://www.rakemag.com/fiction-humor/fiction/when-sysadmins-ruled-earth

Dumb story, IMO. Have you tried Cat's Cradle? Now there is
something worth reading. I'm read Poe right now. Great stuff and
reminds me of a CG piece. Can you guess what piece?
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-21 04:43:47 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 10:37 pm, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 8:12 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 7:10 pm, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 20, 6:31 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > >   What are the basics to you?
>
> > > > Given p->q; q->p does not follow, nor does ~p->~q; but ~q->~p does.
> > > > Simple knowledge of patterns of perception bias.
> > > > A review of how human memory works.
> > > > Simple stats.
> > > > An introduction to the main branches of science.
> > > > Some history of democracy that is not simply American indoctrinization.
> > > > Study of how slogans are used to simplify and reframe perception and
> > > > influence others.
>
> > > > These are the first that come to mind.
>
> > >  Interesting list but I'm not sure what you are aiming for. This is
> > > not logic. A simple truth table is a good place to start for most
> > > people unfamiliar with logic. Now if you were teaching rhetoric...
>
> > Okay, so everyone should know the truth table.  Wouldn't such a
> > development improve the general level of discourse and perception?
>
> It might reduce the number of people who claim "logic" as proof of
> their views.
>
> > I would think that messing around with circuits could build a certain
> > methodology to one's thought processes.
>
> Messing around with math will do that.
>
> > Check out the short story "When Sysadmins Ruled the World".  I think
> > you would get a kick out of it.  It's a story of "Nerds in Post-
> > Apocalyptic Earth".  There should be some LOLs involved.
>
> >http://www.rakemag.com/fiction-humor/fiction/when-sysadmins-ruled-earth
>
>    Dumb story, IMO. Have you tried Cat's Cradle? Now there is
> something worth reading. I'm read Poe right now. Great stuff and
> reminds me of a CG piece. Can you guess what piece?

I'm related to Edger Allen Poe.
Miguel de Maria
2008-10-21 15:18:10 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 9:37 pm, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 8:12 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 7:10 pm, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 20, 6:31 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > >   What are the basics to you?
>
> > > > Given p->q; q->p does not follow, nor does ~p->~q; but ~q->~p does.
> > > > Simple knowledge of patterns of perception bias.
> > > > A review of how human memory works.
> > > > Simple stats.
> > > > An introduction to the main branches of science.
> > > > Some history of democracy that is not simply American indoctrinization.
> > > > Study of how slogans are used to simplify and reframe perception and
> > > > influence others.
>
> > > > These are the first that come to mind.
>
> > >  Interesting list but I'm not sure what you are aiming for. This is
> > > not logic. A simple truth table is a good place to start for most
> > > people unfamiliar with logic. Now if you were teaching rhetoric...
>
> > Okay, so everyone should know the truth table.  Wouldn't such a
> > development improve the general level of discourse and perception?
>
> It might reduce the number of people who claim "logic" as proof of
> their views.
>
> > I would think that messing around with circuits could build a certain
> > methodology to one's thought processes.
>
> Messing around with math will do that.
>
> > Check out the short story "When Sysadmins Ruled the World".  I think
> > you would get a kick out of it.  It's a story of "Nerds in Post-
> > Apocalyptic Earth".  There should be some LOLs involved.
>
> >http://www.rakemag.com/fiction-humor/fiction/when-sysadmins-ruled-earth
>
>    Dumb story, IMO. Have you tried Cat's Cradle? Now there is
> something worth reading. I'm read Poe right now. Great stuff and
> reminds me of a CG piece. Can you guess what piece?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've read Cat's Cradle, Vonnegut is great. The reason I thought that
story was cute was the updated lingo and ideas. If someone read who
had no knowledge of geeks, it would make much less sense. Mask of the
Black Death? Annabel Lee? Don't know.

Michael, you're related to Poe? I'm related to Ronald Reagan.
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-21 16:08:44 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 21, 9:18 am, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Oct 20, 9:37 pm, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 8:12 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 20, 7:10 pm, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 20, 6:31 pm, Miguel de Maria <***@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > >   What are the basics to you?
>
> > > > > Given p->q; q->p does not follow, nor does ~p->~q; but ~q->~p does.
> > > > > Simple knowledge of patterns of perception bias.
> > > > > A review of how human memory works.
> > > > > Simple stats.
> > > > > An introduction to the main branches of science.
> > > > > Some history of democracy that is not simply American indoctrinization.
> > > > > Study of how slogans are used to simplify and reframe perception and
> > > > > influence others.
>
> > > > > These are the first that come to mind.
>
> > > >  Interesting list but I'm not sure what you are aiming for. This is
> > > > not logic. A simple truth table is a good place to start for most
> > > > people unfamiliar with logic. Now if you were teaching rhetoric...
>
> > > Okay, so everyone should know the truth table.  Wouldn't such a
> > > development improve the general level of discourse and perception?
>
> > It might reduce the number of people who claim "logic" as proof of
> > their views.
>
> > > I would think that messing around with circuits could build a certain
> > > methodology to one's thought processes.
>
> > Messing around with math will do that.
>
> > > Check out the short story "When Sysadmins Ruled the World".  I think
> > > you would get a kick out of it.  It's a story of "Nerds in Post-
> > > Apocalyptic Earth".  There should be some LOLs involved.
>
> > >http://www.rakemag.com/fiction-humor/fiction/when-sysadmins-ruled-earth
>
> >    Dumb story, IMO. Have you tried Cat's Cradle? Now there is
> > something worth reading. I'm read Poe right now. Great stuff and
> > reminds me of a CG piece. Can you guess what piece?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I've read Cat's Cradle, Vonnegut is great.  The reason I thought that
> story was cute was the updated lingo and ideas.  If someone read who
> had no knowledge of geeks, it would make much less sense.  Mask of the
> Black Death?  Annabel Lee?  Don't know.
>
> Michael, you're related to Poe?  I'm related to Ronald Reagan.

Yes, I'm not kidding.
d***@gmail.com
2008-10-20 20:13:31 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 20, 12:39 pm, Slogoin <***@deack.net> wrote:

> We are poorly equipped to deal with the
> social changes we are experiencing that are a direct result of our
> "progress" in science and technology. We lag way behind the relentless
> advances of technology when it comes to over coming our tribal biology.

Larry have you secretly been reading about the Mayan calender? I
remember reading your exact words in the Mayan prophesy. Experiences
are happening much faster, time is the same, but our ability to cope
with spead up events is taking it's toll. Only difference is when I
say it, I'm a new age weirdo, and when you say it you are a perfectly
rational individual devoid of all superstition. Interesting how the
mind works.
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