Discussion:
To Spross: Musical Interpretation--Chaconne
(too old to reply)
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-15 18:21:10 UTC
Permalink
At 17 minutes performance time, which is what Arthur Ness timed a
couple of orchestral versions at IIRC, the 256 measures (plus one beat)
come out at MM 1/8 = 90 plus a tiny bit, which seems to me to be a tempo
very attainable by real people. I have no doubt whatsoever that a
*magnificent* performance on the guitar is perfectly possible at that
tempo. It is at least not necessary to get through it in ten minutes or
less, and it *may* be counterproductive to play it as fast as that.

(for students:) After working at it at near 90 for a while, it would be
good to cut the beat to 1/4 = 44, but 1/8 = ca. 90 will help a lot more
at first, for sure. So will counting 1 ka ta ka and ka ta ka 2 ...

I am not allowing for ritards and fermatas, but I think it's a real good
idea to ignore those for a while and use dynamic phrasing instead. As an
example of that, playing it in a *probably* anachronistic romantic manner,
try a crescendo to the E near the end and then dimming down to almost
nothing on the octave D's at the end. Have the trill start late, speed it
up while dimming a bit, and then let it die, all in tempo or very close.
It's a very effective way of ending it, and it's as easy as falling down.
I'm not sure that anyone can prove that it wasn't supposed to be played
that way.

A lot of cleaning up (muting) of open strings and getting rid of excess
slurs has to be done, but that probably was unfinished business anyway.
(It was in my case. Before yeaterday I hadn't played it in decades. I had
it memorized once upon a time.) The Legnani is such a bitch (but not
as bad as the rap) that it's nice to have a relatively easy project also,
especially such magnificent music. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
rcspross
2007-01-15 18:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi David,

I thought your idea of not playing at a "loco" speed right in line
with the general thrust of my comments and using the Chaconne
was a great example. I've never learned it, mostly because the
speed at which the thirty second note runs appeared to be taken
was never obtainable for me, however following your advice,
perhaps it is worth relooking over. At the moment I've been
going over the Tedesco Sonata in D major and I probably need
to do more work on that before I drift away into other projects.
Guilty me, the work on the Lute suite nr. 4 and the Ponce Sonata III
have lapsed. Eventually I'll get back to them though.
Cheers,
Richard Spross
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
At 17 minutes performance time, which is what Arthur Ness timed a
couple of orchestral versions at IIRC, the 256 measures (plus one beat)
come out at MM 1/8 = 90 plus a tiny bit, which seems to me to be a tempo
very attainable by real people. I have no doubt whatsoever that a
*magnificent* performance on the guitar is perfectly possible at that
tempo. It is at least not necessary to get through it in ten minutes or
less, and it *may* be counterproductive to play it as fast as that.
(for students:) After working at it at near 90 for a while, it would be
good to cut the beat to 1/4 = 44, but 1/8 = ca. 90 will help a lot more
at first, for sure. So will counting 1 ka ta ka and ka ta ka 2 ...
I am not allowing for ritards and fermatas, but I think it's a real good
idea to ignore those for a while and use dynamic phrasing instead. As an
example of that, playing it in a *probably* anachronistic romantic manner,
try a crescendo to the E near the end and then dimming down to almost
nothing on the octave D's at the end. Have the trill start late, speed it
up while dimming a bit, and then let it die, all in tempo or very close.
It's a very effective way of ending it, and it's as easy as falling down.
I'm not sure that anyone can prove that it wasn't supposed to be played
that way.
A lot of cleaning up (muting) of open strings and getting rid of excess
slurs has to be done, but that probably was unfinished business anyway.
(It was in my case. Before yeaterday I hadn't played it in decades. I had
it memorized once upon a time.) The Legnani is such a bitch (but not
as bad as the rap) that it's nice to have a relatively easy project also,
especially such magnificent music. daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-15 20:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by rcspross
Hi David,
I thought your idea of not playing at a "loco" speed right in line with
the general thrust of my comments and using the Chaconne was a great
example. I've never learned it, mostly because the speed at which the
thirty second note runs appeared to be taken was never obtainable for me,
however following your advice, perhaps it is worth relooking over. At the
moment I've been going over the Tedesco Sonata in D major and I probably
need to do more work on that before I drift away into other projects.
Guilty me, the work on the Lute suite nr. 4 and the Ponce Sonata III have
lapsed. Eventually I'll get back to them though. Cheers,
Don't skip Legnani. He was a singer, and Op36 reflects the idea that
putting audible and noticeable ends to *melody* notes, even
sometimes within phrases, makes the guitar sound more human. I have never
encountered this exact concept before, anywhere, and it changes the way
you look at all guitar music. Another big surprise for me was how often
occasional finger apoyando, for muting, is required. They were not
titled as etudes but they *are* study pieces.

I remember the late John Marlow talking those up when we were both
kids at American University. At the time, I was doing other stuff of
course, and I don't remember whether he was impressed by much except its
apparent difficulty. I wish now I'd pitched into it. I wish he were
still alive, too, to say "I told you so". daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
rcspross
2007-01-15 23:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by rcspross
Hi David,
I thought your idea of not playing at a "loco" speed right in line with
the general thrust of my comments and using the Chaconne was a great
example. I've never learned it, mostly because the speed at which the
thirty second note runs appeared to be taken was never obtainable for me,
however following your advice, perhaps it is worth relooking over. At the
moment I've been going over the Tedesco Sonata in D major and I probably
need to do more work on that before I drift away into other projects.
Guilty me, the work on the Lute suite nr. 4 and the Ponce Sonata III have
lapsed. Eventually I'll get back to them though. Cheers,
Don't skip Legnani. He was a singer, and Op36 reflects the idea that
putting audible and noticeable ends to *melody* notes, even
sometimes within phrases, makes the guitar sound more human. I have never
encountered this exact concept before, anywhere, and it changes the way
you look at all guitar music. Another big surprise for me was how often
occasional finger apoyando, for muting, is required. They were not
titled as etudes but they *are* study pieces.
I have to admit my big weakness is the late classical / early romantic era.
I have no Legnani in my solo drawer. I may have some in various collections.

I remember the late John Marlow talking those up when we were both
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
kids at American University. At the time, I was doing other stuff of
course, and I don't remember whether he was impressed by much except its
apparent difficulty. I wish now I'd pitched into it. I wish he were
still alive, too, to say "I told you so".
Did you know Jim Bertram? who graduated from American University under
Marlow?

Richard Spross
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-16 00:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by rcspross
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by rcspross
Hi David,
I thought your idea of not playing at a "loco" speed right in line
with the general thrust of my comments and using the Chaconne was a
great example. I've never learned it, mostly because the speed at
which the thirty second note runs appeared to be taken was never
obtainable for me, however following your advice, perhaps it is worth
relooking over. At the moment I've been going over the Tedesco Sonata
in D major and I probably need to do more work on that before I drift
away into other projects. Guilty me, the work on the Lute suite nr. 4
and the Ponce Sonata III have lapsed. Eventually I'll get back to them
though. Cheers,
Don't skip Legnani. He was a singer, and Op36 reflects the idea that
putting audible and noticeable ends to *melody* notes, even sometimes
within phrases, makes the guitar sound more human. I have never
encountered this exact concept before, anywhere, and it changes the way
you look at all guitar music. Another big surprise for me was how often
occasional finger apoyando, for muting, is required. They were not
titled as etudes but they *are* study pieces.
I have to admit my big weakness is the late classical / early romantic
era. I have no Legnani in my solo drawer. I may have some in various
collections.
I've got it on my site, from Boije, reduced a hair to letter size. It's
in the files/ directory. It's 4mb+, a bit larger than all the rest of the
site.
Post by rcspross
I remember the late John Marlow talking those up when we were both
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
kids at American University. At the time, I was doing other stuff of
course, and I don't remember whether he was impressed by much except
its apparent difficulty. I wish now I'd pitched into it. I wish he
were still alive, too, to say "I told you so".
Did you know Jim Bertram? who graduated from American University under
Marlow?
I heard the name at some point, but I don't remember meeting him. I may
have. Of course I was long gone from there. JM was a year or two
younger than I. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
h***@verizon.net
2007-01-16 01:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I remember the late John Marlow talking those up when we were both
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
kids at American University. At the time, I was doing other stuff of
course, and I don't remember whether he was impressed by much except
its apparent difficulty. I wish now I'd pitched into it. I wish he
were still alive, too, to say "I told you so".
Did you know Jim Bertram? who graduated from American University under
Marlow?
I heard the name at some point, but I don't remember meeting him. I may
have. Of course I was long gone from there. JM was a year or two
younger than I. daveA
Dear David and Richard,

It's interesting that you mention AU and John Marlow, I studied with
two AU grads who studied with him, they were Dennis Coleman and Rob
Winter. Did either of you ever run into either of them? (I was in the
DC area before NYC and NJ)

Seth
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-16 04:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I remember the late John Marlow talking those up when we were both
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
kids at American University. At the time, I was doing other stuff of
course, and I don't remember whether he was impressed by much except
its apparent difficulty. I wish now I'd pitched into it. I wish he
were still alive, too, to say "I told you so".
Did you know Jim Bertram? who graduated from American University under
Marlow?
I heard the name at some point, but I don't remember meeting him. I may
have. Of course I was long gone from there. JM was a year or two
younger than I. daveA
Dear David and Richard,
It's interesting that you mention AU and John Marlow, I studied with two
AU grads who studied with him, they were Dennis Coleman and Rob Winter.
Did either of you ever run into either of them? (I was in the DC area
before NYC and NJ)
Not that I recall. Young Spross is more likely to have. ;-) daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
rcspross
2007-01-16 05:10:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I remember the late John Marlow talking those up when we were both
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
kids at American University. At the time, I was doing other stuff of
course, and I don't remember whether he was impressed by much except
its apparent difficulty. I wish now I'd pitched into it. I wish he
were still alive, too, to say "I told you so".
Did you know Jim Bertram? who graduated from American University under
Marlow?
I heard the name at some point, but I don't remember meeting him. I may
have. Of course I was long gone from there. JM was a year or two
younger than I. daveA
Dear David and Richard,
It's interesting that you mention AU and John Marlow, I studied with
two AU grads who studied with him, they were Dennis Coleman and Rob
Winter. Did either of you ever run into either of them? (I was in the
DC area before NYC and NJ)
Seth
Sorry Seth,

I haven't heard of either. The only person Jim mentioned in his past guitar
period at AU was Howard Bass, who is also a lutenist, or may be primarily
a lutenist.

I think Jim possilby graduated from there in the Spring of 1969. This is only

an educated guess because he arrived at CSU, Hayward, ( now CSU, East Bay )
in the Spring Quarter of 1970, at least that's when I became aware of him.

He was an graduate student in music at the time. We lower division students
politiced on his behalf to be given a graduate assistantship to teach us,
since
he was the one who could play circles around the rest of us. This of course
led the interim teacher being let go. Bertram stayed there eventually
becoming
a full professor with tenure before his untimely death while careening around

the Hills on his motorcycle. He died at age 56 I think. This was almost ten
years
ago I believe maybe a wee bit longer.

Richard Spross
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-16 11:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by rcspross
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I remember the late John Marlow talking those up when we were both
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
kids at American University. At the time, I was doing other stuff
of course, and I don't remember whether he was impressed by much
except its apparent difficulty. I wish now I'd pitched into it. I
wish he were still alive, too, to say "I told you so".
Did you know Jim Bertram? who graduated from American University
under Marlow?
I heard the name at some point, but I don't remember meeting him. I
may have. Of course I was long gone from there. JM was a year or two
younger than I. daveA
Dear David and Richard,
It's interesting that you mention AU and John Marlow, I studied with two
AU grads who studied with him, they were Dennis Coleman and Rob Winter.
Did either of you ever run into either of them? (I was in the DC area
before NYC and NJ)
Seth
Sorry Seth,
I haven't heard of either. The only person Jim mentioned in his past
guitar period at AU was Howard Bass, who is also a lutenist, or may be
primarily a lutenist.
(Also?) (Square? Folk? Traditional?) dancing master and caller. He made
the newspaper at some point.

I met Howard Bass one time at AU when I went to see John and heard him
play HVL #1. He played it very well for a first year student.
daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
h***@verizon.net
2007-01-16 13:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by rcspross
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I remember the late John Marlow talking those up when we were both
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
kids at American University. At the time, I was doing other stuff of
course, and I don't remember whether he was impressed by much except
its apparent difficulty. I wish now I'd pitched into it. I wish he
were still alive, too, to say "I told you so".
Did you know Jim Bertram? who graduated from American University under
Marlow?
I heard the name at some point, but I don't remember meeting him. I may
have. Of course I was long gone from there. JM was a year or two
younger than I. daveA
Dear David and Richard,
It's interesting that you mention AU and John Marlow, I studied with
two AU grads who studied with him, they were Dennis Coleman and Rob
Winter. Did either of you ever run into either of them? (I was in the
DC area before NYC and NJ)
Seth
Sorry Seth,
I haven't heard of either. The only person Jim mentioned in his past guitar
period at AU was Howard Bass, who is also a lutenist, or may be primarily
a lutenist.
I think Jim possilby graduated from there in the Spring of 1969. This is only
an educated guess because he arrived at CSU, Hayward, ( now CSU, East Bay )
in the Spring Quarter of 1970, at least that's when I became aware of him.
He was an graduate student in music at the time. We lower division students
politiced on his behalf to be given a graduate assistantship to teach us,
since
he was the one who could play circles around the rest of us. This of course
led the interim teacher being let go. Bertram stayed there eventually
becoming
a full professor with tenure before his untimely death while careening around
the Hills on his motorcycle. He died at age 56 I think. This was almost ten
years
ago I believe maybe a wee bit longer.
Richard Spross
Too bad! 56 is awfully early to go!

Seth
Che'
2007-01-16 14:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Howard has been a program producer at the National Museum of American
History and played with the Folger Consort, Hesperus and the Smithsonian
Chamber Players for years. Howard was the only student who played all the
20 Sor Studies ( Segovia edition) when I studied in D.C.

I recall John Marlow's old Hauser was the first Hauser I saw or played. A
very nice guitar...but he had a very small studio at AU.

Che'
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by rcspross
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I remember the late John Marlow talking those up when we were both
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
kids at American University. At the time, I was doing other stuff of
course, and I don't remember whether he was impressed by much except
its apparent difficulty. I wish now I'd pitched into it. I wish he
were still alive, too, to say "I told you so".
Did you know Jim Bertram? who graduated from American University under
Marlow?
I heard the name at some point, but I don't remember meeting him. I may
have. Of course I was long gone from there. JM was a year or two
younger than I. daveA
Dear David and Richard,
It's interesting that you mention AU and John Marlow, I studied with
two AU grads who studied with him, they were Dennis Coleman and Rob
Winter. Did either of you ever run into either of them? (I was in the
DC area before NYC and NJ)
Seth
Sorry Seth,
I haven't heard of either. The only person Jim mentioned in his past guitar
period at AU was Howard Bass, who is also a lutenist, or may be primarily
a lutenist.
I think Jim possilby graduated from there in the Spring of 1969. This is only
an educated guess because he arrived at CSU, Hayward, ( now CSU, East Bay )
in the Spring Quarter of 1970, at least that's when I became aware of him.
He was an graduate student in music at the time. We lower division students
politiced on his behalf to be given a graduate assistantship to teach us,
since
he was the one who could play circles around the rest of us. This of course
led the interim teacher being let go. Bertram stayed there eventually
becoming
a full professor with tenure before his untimely death while careening around
the Hills on his motorcycle. He died at age 56 I think. This was almost ten
years
ago I believe maybe a wee bit longer.
Richard Spross
Too bad! 56 is awfully early to go!
Seth
Arthur Ness
2007-01-15 20:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
At 17 minutes performance time, which is what Arthur Ness timed a
couple of orchestral versions at IIRC, the 256 measures (plus one beat)
come out at MM 1/8 = 90 plus a tiny bit, which seems to me to be a tempo
very attainable by real people. I have no doubt whatsoever that a
*magnificent* performance on the guitar is perfectly possible at that
tempo. It is at least not necessary to get through it in ten minutes or
less, and it *may* be counterproductive to play it as fast as that.
<<snip>>> --
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
====================================================
There are many arrangements. I recently made a partial list because someone
inquired about the tempo. You can draw your own conclusions.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
====================================================
Arr. for harpsichord 9:57
Arr. for harpsichord 12:43 min. (=MM 61)
Arr. Accordion 13:12*
Arr piano (Busoni) 13:43
Arr. Piano (Busoni) 13:54*
Arr piano (Busoni) 14:18
Arr Piano (Busoni) 14:19 (A. Rubenstein)
Arr. Guitar 14:28 (Bream)
Arr. 2 guitrars (Strache) 14:52
Arr. Guitar (Platino) 15:00*
Violin 12:21
Violin (Heifetz) 13:09*
Violin 14:29
Violin 15:25
Violin 15:30
Arr. piano (Siloti--student of Anton Rubenstein) 16:00
Arr. Orchestra (Raff--publ. 1873) 12:57*
Arr. Orchestra (Stokowski) 16:19 (Stokowski), (1947) 17:22 (Barnet)
Arr. Lute 17:01 (Satoh)*
Arr piano RH alone (Brahms) 17:38
(Brahms' is the best transcription, imho)
Arr Harp (A. Lord-King) 17:50 (=MM 43)
I've left off mamy performers, since hardly any of them are household
names.
Most are east European.
Of the arrangements, I think I like the Brahms the best (of the
arrangements). And I think it is inmportant to realize these arrangements
make the work over to such an extent that it is no longer a work of Bach.
A kind of transformation. For that reason the arranger is essential to
appreciating the work. I had to complain to Naxos Musc > Library because
on many CDs the arranger was not mentioned.
A recently discovery for me was Joachim Raff's arrangement for orchstra
published in 1873. It's very Romantic, but in that regard quite interesting
listening. Esp. in comparison with Stokowski.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
But I haven't heard Isaac Stern in many years. His is surely a fine
performance. If not the finest.
I expect the bravura in the Busoni arrangement is as much Busoni's as is it
the performers. Why are the harpsichiord arrangment played faster than the
others. Perhaps it has to do with the individual timbres.
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-15 21:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Of the arrangements, I think I like the Brahms the best (of the
arrangements). And I think it is inmportant to realize these
arrangements make the work over to such an extent that it is no longer a
work of Bach. A kind of transformation.
The version that Segovia played is very conservative. I don't think you
can seriously argue that it's not Bach. I would agree that the
transposition up a fifth and the bogus bass notes added to the first cello
suite make the versions in D major not the work of Bach.

And IMO the Segovia arrangement or transcription of the
Chaconne can be rendered *magnificently* at 17 min., which is MM45.
Surely you don't mean to gainsay that? That is really the point that
I intended to make. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-01-16 14:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Oh, I'm not going to argue one way or the other, Dave. Certainly there are
purists around who would hold that any performance today is not authentic
Bach. And
certainly in Stokowski's day, there were his fans who would argue that his
"modernization" was the only valid way to play Bach. And just whisper Glen
...

So take your choice, or anything in between. But
so many of the arrangements are "Bach transformed." As for tempo, excellent
performers do it at both ends of the tempo spectrum. And certainly 17
minutes still sounds wonderful to my ears. And the instrument and
performance venue must be taken into consideration. Somehow 17 minutes
seems just right for Satoh AND his instrument. AND the bright room in which
he played for the CD. I don't recall ever hearing the Segovia recording.
What speed is it? 17 minutes, also?

What surprised me was Heifetz on YouTube. I've seldom heard him play so
well.<g> He's not my favorite violinist.

It seems almost obscene to take a solo violin piece and score it for a large
symphony orchestra. But the most interesting discovery for me was Joachim
Raff's arrangement for full symphony orchestra published in 1873. It sounds
like the finale to a Brahms symphony. Thirteen years before Brahms composed
his own. The last
movement of Symphony No. 4 bears an uncanny likeness to the ciacona that
ends Cantata 150.

I forgot to mention that Mendelssohn and Schumann composed piano
accompaniments for the solo partitas.<shudder> The chaconne must be one of
the most-arranged pieces ever. Doc Severinson recorded it on trumpet with
the Cincinnati Pops Orchestra.
===============================================
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Of the arrangements, I think I like the Brahms the best (of the
arrangements). And I think it is inmportant to realize these
arrangements make the work over to such an extent that it is no longer a
work of Bach. A kind of transformation.
The version that Segovia played is very conservative. I don't think you
can seriously argue that it's not Bach. I would agree that the
transposition up a fifth and the bogus bass notes added to the first cello
suite make the versions in D major not the work of Bach.
And IMO the Segovia arrangement or transcription of the
Chaconne can be rendered *magnificently* at 17 min., which is MM45.
Surely you don't mean to gainsay that? That is really the point that
I intended to make. daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-16 16:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Oh, I'm not going to argue one way or the other, Dave. Certainly there
are purists around who would hold that any performance today is not
authentic Bach. And
certainly in Stokowski's day, there were his fans who would argue that his
"modernization" was the only valid way to play Bach. And just whisper Glen
...
So take your choice, or anything in between. But so many of the
arrangements are "Bach transformed." As for tempo, excellent performers
do it at both ends of the tempo spectrum. And certainly 17 minutes still
sounds wonderful to my ears. And the instrument and performance venue
must be taken into consideration. Somehow 17 minutes seems just right for
Satoh AND his instrument. AND the bright room in which he played for the
CD. I don't recall ever hearing the Segovia recording. What speed is it?
Not 17 minutes. I timed it once, but I forget. It was about 10 minutes,
give or take. To me, the point is that IMO he goes a bit too far in
trying to imitate the violin. He made it work, and no doubt it was a wise
choice for the concert stage, but it's not what I want to do any more.
Isaac Stern's version is my ideal violin performance, but playing it on
the guitar I want to hear an orchestra, not for a lot of added notes but
for less struggle, better rhythm, and more range of dynamic and color.
It's not notes, it's attitude. Also, there is humor in the piece, in the
major part, that is not adequately represented in any performance I have
heard. Of course as AS got older he cut out more and more slurs, but that
was for other reasons, no longer relevant for me.
Post by Arthur Ness
What surprised me was Heifetz on YouTube. I've seldom heard him play so
well.<g> He's not my favorite violinist.
It seems almost obscene to take a solo violin piece and score it for a
large symphony orchestra. But the most interesting discovery for me was
Joachim Raff's arrangement for full symphony orchestra published in
1873. It sounds like the finale to a Brahms symphony. Thirteen years
before Brahms composed his own. The last movement of Symphony No. 4
bears an uncanny likeness to the ciacona that ends Cantata 150.
I forgot to mention that Mendelssohn and Schumann composed piano
accompaniments for the solo partitas.<shudder> The chaconne must be one
of the most-arranged pieces ever. Doc Severinson recorded it on trumpet
with the Cincinnati Pops Orchestra.
Yes, at last I saw what you were getting at. It's safe from me. I just
play the Segovia version. One change I will probably make is to raise or
even omit some low D's, probably not Bach anyway, at cadences where there
is pianissimo, because when you are playing extremely quietly at endings
low basses are just noise. That's something I learned from Carcassi.
Modern players are more likely to "correct" him than play him. :-)

This is premature. Legnani first. The only reason I dug it up is
in response to Spross' post, preaching to the choir in my case. A 17
minute tempo was the first thing I tried, and I like it a lot, but no
decisions have been made except that I intend to relearn it
considerably slower than I used to play it. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
h***@verizon.net
2007-01-16 17:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Not 17 minutes. I timed it once, but I forget. It was about 10 minutes,
give or take.
I have an old LP record called The Genius of Andres Segovia-A Bach
Recital.

The Chaconne on that record is 12 minutes and 5 seconds.

Seth
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-16 18:49:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Not 17 minutes. I timed it once, but I forget. It was about 10
minutes, give or take.
I have an old LP record called The Genius of Andres Segovia-A Bach
Recital.
The Chaconne on that record is 12 minutes and 5 seconds.
Either that's a newer recording, which is not unlikely, or I forgot, which
is not unlikely either. ;-) daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
h***@verizon.net
2007-01-16 21:25:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Not 17 minutes. I timed it once, but I forget. It was about 10
minutes, give or take.
I have an old LP record called The Genius of Andres Segovia-A Bach
Recital.
The Chaconne on that record is 12 minutes and 5 seconds.
Either that's a newer recording, which is not unlikely, or I forgot, which
is not unlikely either. ;-) daveA
Either way, much faster than 17 minutes.

S
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-17 22:52:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by h***@verizon.net
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Not 17 minutes. I timed it once, but I forget. It was about 10
minutes, give or take.
I have an old LP record called The Genius of Andres Segovia-A Bach
Recital.
The Chaconne on that record is 12 minutes and 5 seconds.
Either that's a newer recording, which is not unlikely, or I forgot,
which is not unlikely either. ;-) daveA
Either way, much faster than 17 minutes.
S
It turns out that he did record it at least twice. I timed the 1954
version, which is not the one you timed. I would expect it to be a hair
faster, but I could still be wrong. Either way, as you say. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-01-17 13:10:26 UTC
Permalink
I haven't much more to add. I saw a reference to Busoni's performance of
his virtuoso arrangement of the chaconne. He does it in 15:25. That's about
Q =MM50. I think I prefer about Q=60. But Satoh's in 17 minutes (Q=45)
seems just right for his instrument. He also uses a bit of rubato, and at
that tempo it is very effective. Which leads to one other consideration.
What is the Affekt?

==ajn.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Arthur Ness
Oh, I'm not going to argue one way or the other, Dave. Certainly there
are purists around who would hold that any performance today is not
authentic Bach. And
certainly in Stokowski's day, there were his fans who would argue that his
"modernization" was the only valid way to play Bach. And just whisper Glen
...
So take your choice, or anything in between. But so many of the
arrangements are "Bach transformed." As for tempo, excellent performers
do it at both ends of the tempo spectrum. And certainly 17 minutes still
sounds wonderful to my ears. And the instrument and performance venue
must be taken into consideration. Somehow 17 minutes seems just right for
Satoh AND his instrument. AND the bright room in which he played for the
CD. I don't recall ever hearing the Segovia recording. What speed is it?
Not 17 minutes. I timed it once, but I forget. It was about 10 minutes,
give or take. To me, the point is that IMO he goes a bit too far in
trying to imitate the violin. He made it work, and no doubt it was a wise
choice for the concert stage, but it's not what I want to do any more.
Isaac Stern's version is my ideal violin performance, but playing it on
the guitar I want to hear an orchestra, not for a lot of added notes but
for less struggle, better rhythm, and more range of dynamic and color.
It's not notes, it's attitude. Also, there is humor in the piece, in the
major part, that is not adequately represented in any performance I have
heard. Of course as AS got older he cut out more and more slurs, but that
was for other reasons, no longer relevant for me.
Post by Arthur Ness
What surprised me was Heifetz on YouTube. I've seldom heard him play so
well.<g> He's not my favorite violinist.
It seems almost obscene to take a solo violin piece and score it for a
large symphony orchestra. But the most interesting discovery for me was
Joachim Raff's arrangement for full symphony orchestra published in
1873. It sounds like the finale to a Brahms symphony. Thirteen years
before Brahms composed his own. The last movement of Symphony No. 4
bears an uncanny likeness to the ciacona that ends Cantata 150.
I forgot to mention that Mendelssohn and Schumann composed piano
accompaniments for the solo partitas.<shudder> The chaconne must be one
of the most-arranged pieces ever. Doc Severinson recorded it on trumpet
with the Cincinnati Pops Orchestra.
Yes, at last I saw what you were getting at. It's safe from me. I just
play the Segovia version. One change I will probably make is to raise or
even omit some low D's, probably not Bach anyway, at cadences where there
is pianissimo, because when you are playing extremely quietly at endings
low basses are just noise. That's something I learned from Carcassi.
Modern players are more likely to "correct" him than play him. :-)
This is premature. Legnani first. The only reason I dug it up is
in response to Spross' post, preaching to the choir in my case. A 17
minute tempo was the first thing I tried, and I like it a lot, but no
decisions have been made except that I intend to relearn it
considerably slower than I used to play it. daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Stanley Yates
2007-01-17 14:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
I haven't much more to add. I saw a reference to Busoni's performance of
his virtuoso arrangement of the chaconne. He does it in 15:25. That's about
Q =MM50. I think I prefer about Q=60. But Satoh's in 17 minutes (Q=45)
seems just right for his instrument. He also uses a bit of rubato, and at
that tempo it is very effective. Which leads to one other consideration.
What is the Affekt?
==ajn.
This is a good question, Arthur. Also, I think this piece tends to get
viewed in a vaccuum. It is unique in some respects, but not all. Another
pertinent line of investigation would follow the stylistic developement of
the ciaconna genre and what that may have meant to Bach at the time of
composition. It seems a bit odd to present an interpretation of one of them
without having absorbed the genre itself.

SY
Larry Deack
2007-01-17 16:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
This is a good question, Arthur. Also, I think this piece tends to get
viewed in a vaccuum. It is unique in some respects, but not all. Another
pertinent line of investigation would follow the stylistic developement of
the ciaconna genre and what that may have meant to Bach at the time of
composition. It seems a bit odd to present an interpretation of one of them
without having absorbed the genre itself.
Bach seemed to enjoyed playing games with other people's assumptions
about his music and I bet he wrote music that played into those assumptions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_the_affections

Whether this helps anybody play his music better is debatable.
Sometimes a thing is what it appears to be.
r***@hotmail.com
2007-01-17 18:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Stanley Yates
This is a good question, Arthur. Also, I think this piece tends to get
viewed in a vaccuum. It is unique in some respects, but not all. Another
pertinent line of investigation would follow the stylistic developement of
the ciaconna genre and what that may have meant to Bach at the time of
composition. It seems a bit odd to present an interpretation of one of them
without having absorbed the genre itself.
Bach seemed to enjoyed playing games with other people's assumptions
about his music and I bet he wrote music that played into those assumptions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_the_affections
Whether this helps anybody play his music better is debatable.
Sometimes a thing is what it appears to be.
Sounds like he thought alot about what he was doing.
Larry Deack
2007-01-17 18:29:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@hotmail.com
Sounds like he thought alot about what he was doing.
I think you think he thought a lot
yet thinking can be thought as not
thinking any kind of thought
that thinkers think of as well wrought
Che'
2007-01-17 20:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
I think you think he thought a lot
yet thinking can be thought as not
thinking any kind of thought
that thinkers think of as well wrought<
Got any good advice on lawsuits, any tips from Stupid or hisses from the
peanut galley?
Larry Deack
2007-01-17 20:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che'
Got any good advice on lawsuits,
Make sure your lawyer is a good friend of yours.
Post by Che'
any tips from Stupid or
hisses from the peanut galley?
Stupid is as stupid does. You boil in your own oil when you stay in
the pot after the lifeguard told you the fire was getting too hot for
horsing around.

Life is too short to play every game to its logical conclusion.
Che'
2007-01-17 20:58:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che'
Got any good advice on lawsuits,
Make sure your lawyer is a good friend of yours.<
I guess if you don't have a friend .....Craig's List works...huh?
Post by Che'
any tips from Stupid or
hisses from the peanut galley?
Stupid is as stupid does. You boil in your own oil when you stay in the
pot after the lifeguard told you the fire was getting too hot for horsing
around.
Life is too short to play every game to its logical conclusion.<
Life is a game, lighten up and give yourself permission to play and win.
There's nothing saying it's logical. Think about it, you have no idea where
you're going at the conclusion of this one. I think you have it wrong
Capn',....when a dummy is stewing in his own juice, it's called Slow Food.
http://www.slowfood.it/

Hope that helps,

Che'
Larry Deack
2007-01-17 21:19:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che'
I guess if you don't have a friend .....Craig's List works...huh?
I wouldn't know. As I said, I'm very fortunate.
Post by Che'
Life is a game,
I'm sure that's one way to look at it. But is it a Nim Sum game?
Post by Che'
lighten up and give yourself permission to play and win.
I play to win win in all the games I play. YMMV
Post by Che'
There's nothing saying it's logical.
Being logical is saying nothing.
Post by Che'
Think about it, you have no idea where
you're going at the conclusion of this one.
Oh I have more than an idea about such conclusions but that's not
going to get us anywhere anyway anyhow.
Post by Che'
I think you have it wrong Capn',....
That's very probable but it's my best guess and "that's good enough
for me".
Post by Che'
when a dummy is stewing in his own juice, it's called Slow Food.
http://www.slowfood.it/
Hope that helps,
That certainly does help. Good food is a good thing and with good
friends it makes for good times. I was eating slow to end last year and
begin the new one since there was nothing within miles of me that was
fast. Hope yours was as slow and good as mine.
Che'
2007-01-17 21:47:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Che'
I guess if you don't have a friend .....Craig's List works...huh?
I wouldn't know. As I said, I'm very fortunate.
Post by Che'
Life is a game,
I'm sure that's one way to look at it. But is it a Nim Sum game?
Post by Che'
lighten up and give yourself permission to play and win.
I play to win win in all the games I play. YMMV
Post by Che'
There's nothing saying it's logical.
Being logical is saying nothing.
Post by Che'
Think about it, you have no idea where you're going at the conclusion of
this one.
Oh I have more than an idea about such conclusions but that's not going
to get us anywhere anyway anyhow.
Post by Che'
I think you have it wrong Capn',....
That's very probable but it's my best guess and "that's good enough for
me".
Post by Che'
when a dummy is stewing in his own juice, it's called Slow Food.
http://www.slowfood.it/
Hope that helps,
That certainly does help. Good food is a good thing and with good
friends it makes for good times. I was eating slow to end last year and
begin the new one since there was nothing within miles of me that was
fast. Hope yours was as slow and good as mine.
Che'
2007-01-17 21:57:53 UTC
Permalink
I was eating slow to end last year and begin the new one since there was
nothing within miles of me that was fast. <
There's a Jack-In-The-Box at 12107 Euclid St, Garden Grove, CA 92840. Check
it out or phone in an order: (714) 534-9745

Larry, just because it's called Slow Food doesn't mean you need to eat slow.
You are surrounded by fast food eateries including, Del Taco's
Carl's JR, Red Robin, countless Vietnamese market stands and Korean joints.
Are you sure you haven't been dining in Disney land?
Larry Deack
2007-01-17 22:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che'
There's a Jack-In-The-Box at 12107 Euclid St, Garden Grove, CA 92840. Check
it out or phone in an order: (714) 534-9745
I like their greasy tacos but I haven't been there in a while.
Post by Che'
Larry, just because it's called Slow Food doesn't mean you need to eat slow.
Where I was for New Years there was nothing happening fast and not a
fast food place as far as you can see.
Post by Che'
You are surrounded by fast food eateries including, Del Taco's
Carl's JR, Red Robin, countless Vietnamese market stands and Korean joints.
Are you sure you haven't been dining in Disney land?
I'll be up by Disnayland this Saturday and eating at a place I've
never been before. That's about the only thing that is connected to CG
in this thread.

Last month I ate at Brian's as often as possible. It can take a long
time to get the food there but it's worth it... and you can sit a chat
with some interesting folks while you wait.
Che'
2007-01-18 00:28:40 UTC
Permalink
I'll be up by Disnayland this Saturday and eating at a place I've never
been before. That's about the only thing that is
connected to CG in this thread.<
You improperly spelled Disneyland. I thought you might have some
interesting R.M.C.G lawsuit information. You seem to enjoy chiming in from
time to time. You might have directed our attention to these California
cases:

A California grandmother is suing Disneyland after she and her grandchildren
witnessed Mickey Mouse taking off his
costume backstage. The suit is due to her grandchildren's traumatic
experience.

Two Long Beach surfers went to court after one allegedly stole the other's
wave. The case was dismissed after court officials found it impossible to
put a monetary value on the wave.

Larry, perhaps you've spent too much unsupervised time in Disneyland.

Methinks, you have much frozen food in Southern California, according to the
news.





.
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-17 22:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by r***@hotmail.com
Sounds like he thought alot about what he was doing.
I think you think he thought a lot
yet thinking can be thought as not
thinking any kind of thought
that thinkers think of as well wrought
Love it. Who? daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Larry Deack
2007-01-17 23:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Larry Deack
I think you think he thought a lot
yet thinking can be thought as not
thinking any kind of thought
that thinkers think of as well wrought
Love it. Who? daveA
?????
Stanley Yates
2007-01-17 22:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Bach seemed to enjoyed playing games with other people's assumptions
about his music and I bet he wrote music that played into those assumptions.
As do all composers. In which case, one might think an interpretor should
investigate what the assumptions of Bach's audience might have been
regarding the ciaconna genre. However, this particular piece probably was
not written an external audience in mind. The audience was the composer
himself (and perhaps his recently departed wife), the cycle having been
written for personal reasons and, probably, for personal use. All composers
are as least partly playing with their own assumptions as internal audience
member. Anyway, get to know the ciaconna and passacaglia genres before Bach
and you'll at least get a notion of the underlying canvas that Bach's
unacompanied ciaconna is painted upon. Personally, I don't regard this piece
as simply a chaconne - it's something else cast in chaconne form only at its
broadest level.

SY
Rudi Menter
2007-01-17 22:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
As do all composers. In which case, one might think an interpretor should
investigate what the assumptions of Bach's audience might have been
regarding the ciaconna genre. However, this particular piece probably was
not written an external audience in mind. The audience was the composer
himself (and perhaps his recently departed wife), the cycle having been
written for personal reasons and, probably, for personal use. All composers
are as least partly playing with their own assumptions as internal audience
member. Anyway, get to know the ciaconna and passacaglia genres before Bach
and you'll at least get a notion of the underlying canvas that Bach's
unacompanied ciaconna is painted upon. Personally, I don't regard this piece
as simply a chaconne - it's something else cast in chaconne form only at its
broadest level.
Yes, I guess Bach never wrote for certain instruments if ever possible.

That is because of his way of thought. Of course, when he wrote, e.g.,
for a certain choir, then he simply had to accept the given voicings, etc.

The way Bach composed music is *always* pure Math as well...

Regards
--
Larry Deack
2007-01-17 23:01:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudi Menter
The way Bach composed music is *always* pure Math as well...
:-)
Larry Deack
2007-01-17 22:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
As do all composers. In which case, one might think an interpretor should
investigate what the assumptions of Bach's audience might have been
regarding the ciaconna genre.
It might be impossible to really understand some of the more
important assumptions of the time. I find it very difficult to imagine
many of the assumptions about science when it comes to things like
bodily fluids and their effect on our emotional state as it relates to
musical patterns.
Post by Stanley Yates
However, this particular piece probably was
not written an external audience in mind. The audience was the composer
himself (and perhaps his recently departed wife), the cycle having been
written for personal reasons and, probably, for personal use. All composers
are as least partly playing with their own assumptions as internal audience
member.
I don't think artists can do anything other than create things that
express their perspective of life. In a sense artists document their
path through this life and transcend their era through that shared
experience of trying to speak to that desire in all of us to transcend
this life.
Post by Stanley Yates
Anyway, get to know the ciaconna and passacaglia genres before Bach
and you'll at least get a notion of the underlying canvas that Bach's
unacompanied ciaconna is painted upon.
The assumption here is that the historical form matters more than the
abstract transcendental patterns. It might make some part of the puzzle
clearer or it could just get in the way to finding the deeper underlying
pattern that is universal and timeless.
Post by Stanley Yates
Personally, I don't regard this piece as simply a chaconne
- it's something else cast in chaconne form only at its
broadest level.
I find that Bach is mostly revealed in the geometry of his work and
how that geometry is put into his service as a vehicle to reflect a very
human passion for life. It might help more to first study the patterns
without assumptions about the historical context so we are not coloring
the piece with our own explicative aesthetic.

To me the traditional way of studying musical texts to discover
meaning is less important to musical meaning than the study of the
musical pattern itself without the distraction of the meaning others may
have applied to the music. I normally wait until the discovery of new
patterns becomes a trickle before I examine what others say about a piece.

I find many of the traditional methods of musical analysis to be
cumbersome and exclusionary in their myriad details and redundant
vocabulary.

YMMV :-)
Stanley Yates
2007-01-18 03:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
As do all composers. In which case, one might think an interpretor should
investigate what the assumptions of Bach's audience might have been
regarding the ciaconna genre.
It might be impossible to really understand some of the more important
assumptions of the time. I find it very difficult to imagine many of the
assumptions about science when it comes to things like bodily fluids and
their effect on our emotional state as it relates to musical patterns.
Post by Stanley Yates
However, this particular piece probably was not written an external
audience in mind. The audience was the composer himself (and perhaps his
recently departed wife), the cycle having been written for personal
reasons and, probably, for personal use. All composers are as least
partly playing with their own assumptions as internal audience member.
I don't think artists can do anything other than create things that
express their perspective of life. In a sense artists document their path
through this life and transcend their era through that shared experience
of trying to speak to that desire in all of us to transcend this life.
Post by Stanley Yates
Anyway, get to know the ciaconna and passacaglia genres before Bach and
you'll at least get a notion of the underlying canvas that Bach's
unacompanied ciaconna is painted upon.
The assumption here is that the historical form matters more than the
abstract transcendental patterns. It might make some part of the puzzle
clearer or it could just get in the way to finding the deeper underlying
pattern that is universal and timeless.
Post by Stanley Yates
Personally, I don't regard this piece as simply a chaconne
- it's something else cast in chaconne form only at its broadest level.
I find that Bach is mostly revealed in the geometry of his work and how
that geometry is put into his service as a vehicle to reflect a very human
passion for life. It might help more to first study the patterns without
assumptions about the historical context so we are not coloring the piece
with our own explicative aesthetic.
To me the traditional way of studying musical texts to discover meaning
is less important to musical meaning than the study of the musical pattern
itself without the distraction of the meaning others may have applied to
the music. I normally wait until the discovery of new patterns becomes a
trickle before I examine what others say about a piece.
I find many of the traditional methods of musical analysis to be
cumbersome and exclusionary in their myriad details and redundant
vocabulary.
YMMV :-)
Think of it this way: How would someone sound as a jazz improvisor player
armed with merely a few scales and a chord progression but having heard only
So What?
Larry Deack
2007-01-18 04:17:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Think of it this way: How would someone sound as a jazz improvisor player
armed with merely a few scales and a chord progression but having heard only
So What?
Exactly! Good choice! It's amazing how much Miles put into that vamp.

I've even written a number of small tunes based on the vamp form
(with a few additional harmonies in places). I can demonstrate to my
students a number of styles of music using just two chords and one scale
(with some alterations :-))

It's a very special relationship to the scale since all the notes can
be used as you alternate between the chords but each note can function
as leans or lands depending on which chord is sounding. The chords act
like a "snap to grid" for the scale notes.

Bach used the I V I form to say much the same thing in his style of
music and putting that together with So What was when I decided that the
two chord idea was a better way to teach theory than introducing a third
chord into the basic form of music analysis.
John Philip Dimick
2007-01-22 03:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Personally, I don't regard this piece
as simply a chaconne - it's something else cast in chaconne form only at its
broadest level.
I like that thought.

The first time I heard the Chaconne was at night school at Venice High
(Southern California, c. 1968). There was a classical guitarist
teaching a general guitar class, mostly for adults in "continuing
education." I'd heard he was a classical guitarist and that he'd let
people sit in the back of the class and listen, wthout having to sign
up (pay money) for the class.

As a poor young guitarist, 15 years old, with no teacher other than
Julian Bream recordings, this seemed like it might be a good deal. So I
sat in the back of the class on Tuesdays and Thursdays. He'd teach folk
songs and whatever, but at the end of the class he'd play some CG and
wow everybody.

So one night he played the Chaconne, with commentary. When he got to
the middle part (D major), he said, while playing, "Now this part is
Bach's little Prayer for Mankind. Bach is saying, 'Lord, I know we've
got our faults, but maybe we're not THAT bad after all? Really, we're
not.' "

I never forgot that. Every time I play the major part, I remember that.
It seems evident to me that the Chaconne was a very personal prayer.
And it still is, for me -- and I'm an atheist!

[Btw, the teacher was Peter Kraus. As far as I know, Peter was the
first to arrange and publish the Satie "Gymnopedies" for solo guitar.
(I know Matanya will correct me if that's wrong.)]
Matanya Ophee
2007-01-22 16:53:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Philip Dimick
As far as I know, Peter was the
first to arrange and publish the Satie "Gymnopedies" for solo guitar.
(I know Matanya will correct me if that's wrong.)]
I don't know if that is wrong, unless you tell me when Peter did this.
I did the Gymnopedies (for oboe and guitar) in 1975, performed it
several times around New Hampshire, and never published it, because,
when I got started as a publisher in 1978, there was already a
published version of this by Arthur Levering. The Gymnopedies for solo
guitar were done by Edgard Dana at about the same time. I forget who
is the publisher.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
Arthur Ness
2007-01-18 03:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Arthur Ness
I haven't much more to add. I saw a reference to Busoni's performance of
his virtuoso arrangement of the chaconne. He does it in 15:25. That's about
Q =MM50. I think I prefer about Q=60. But Satoh's in 17 minutes (Q=45)
seems just right for his instrument. He also uses a bit of rubato, and at
that tempo it is very effective. Which leads to one other consideration.
What is the Affekt?
==ajn.
This is a good question, Arthur. Also, I think this piece tends to get
viewed in a vaccuum. It is unique in some respects, but not all. Another
pertinent line of investigation would follow the stylistic developement of
the ciaconna genre and what that may have meant to Bach at the time of
composition. It seems a bit odd to present an interpretation of one of
them without having absorbed the genre itself.
SY
LATER
Post by Stanley Yates
As do all composers. In which case, one might think an interpretor should
investigate what the assumptions of Bach's audience might have been
regarding the ciaconna genre. However, this particular piece probably was
not written an external audience in mind. The audience was the composer
himself (and perhaps his recently departed wife), the cycle having been
written for personal reasons and, probably, for personal use.
Dear Stanley,

That's an interesting observation about his departed wife. Do you know when
the ciaconna was
composed? Schmieder says 1720. That's scary! Did you look it up? And the
ciaconna is tacked on. Just like Biber's, also for solo violin.

You knew about the descending tetrachord, of course.

The Lute News came the other day with a black and white cover portrait of a
guy
cradling a lute. Looked familiar. How do I know that guy, I
asked myself?
Oh, Santa Claus brought him! Yikes! STING!! And inside a long interview
with him by
Chris Goodwin, the Lute Society (UK) Adminstrator. And a review of the CD.
Then the Lute Society
of America Quarterly came. No picture on the cover. But THREE
reviews of the CD. One fairly positive printed black text on WHITE. The
second mildly confrontational, black on GREY background. Then (it would be
a crim to say who wrote it) a damning review, white on a BLACK
background. So flowed my teares (track 4).

Cessez mes yeulx (Crecquillon)
Flow my teares (Dowland)
Lachrimae or Seaven Teares (Dowland)
Lachrimae Pavan (Dowland)
Forlorn Hope (Dowland)
Amor dove dov'è fe' ce'el traditor giurò (Monteverdi)
L'amant malheureux (Gallot)
L'amant malheureux (Weiss)
Weinen, klagen, sorgen, zagen (JSB)
Ist ein allgemeines Lamento der Freunde (JSB)
Jesu, der du meine Seele, hast durch deinen bittern Tod (JSB)
Crucifixus, cruxifixus, cruxifixus (JSB)
Canon triplex a 6 vocibus (JSB#14: "Thanks, Georg"#11)
When I am laid in earth (Purcell)
Meine Tage in den Leiden (JSB)
(the only other piece titled 'ciaconna" by JSB;
first publ. 1884 in BGA with corrections by Brahms.)
Rosencranz and Guilder ... , errr just Rosenkranz (Biber)
Partie (Vitalini)
L'anima partir (muore) (Mozart)

I'll get some musical examples up. These are probably not ordered
correctly. I think the Affekt is lamentoso.

==ajn.
Stanley Yates
2007-01-18 04:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Stanley,
That's an interesting observation about his departed wife. Do you know when
the ciaconna was
composed? Schmieder says 1720. That's scary! Did you look it up? And the
ciaconna is tacked on. Just like Biber's, also for solo violin.
J. S. himself marked the unaccompanied violin autographs "ao. 1720." So, no
later than 1720. Bach spent the summer of 1720 with Prince Leopald at
Karlsbad and arrived home to find Maria Barbara had died the week before and
was already buried.
Post by Arthur Ness
You knew about the descending tetrachord, of course.
Yes - almost always a lament (Purcell Dido...). I find the "threes" at all
levels of these the cycle to be telling.
Post by Arthur Ness
The Lute News came the other day with a black and white cover portrait of a
guy
cradling a lute. Looked familiar. How do I know that guy, I
asked myself?
Oh, Santa Claus brought him! Yikes! STING!! And inside a long interview
with him by
Chris Goodwin, the Lute Society (UK) Adminstrator.
And Bream apparently gave up the lute because because he wasn't considered
authentic enough!
I bought the Sting CD in a moment of weakness, but through it out the car
window after the first track. Still, it might create some slightly wider
interest in this wonderful music.
Post by Arthur Ness
I think the Affekt is lamentoso.
Oh, I agree, though to a point. A lamentation can approach the histrionic,
but I feel Bach's expression in this piece is largely a model of
understatement and acceptance. I cannot resist a piano opening and a
pianissimo ending to the piece when I perform it. I sometimes play it piano
throughout - total acceptance, no histrionics.

Stanley
Stanley Yates
2007-01-18 05:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Arthur Ness
You knew about the descending tetrachord, of course.
Yes - almost always a lament (Purcell Dido...). I find the "threes" at all
levels of these the cycle to be telling.
I _also_ find the "threes"...
Post by Stanley Yates
I bought the Sting CD in a moment of weakness, but through it out the car
window after the first track.
I _threw_ it _through_ the window...

SY
Che'
2007-01-18 16:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Arthur Ness
You knew about the descending tetrachord, of course.
Yes - almost always a lament (Purcell Dido...). I find the "threes" at
all levels of these the cycle to be telling.
I _also_ find the "threes"...
Post by Stanley Yates
I bought the Sting CD in a moment of weakness, but through it out the car
window after the first track.
I _threw_ it _through_ the window...
SY <
I threw a disgusting Cd out the window once. It was a knee-jerk reaction
because I didn't want that sort of trash in my house. On reflection, maybe
a better tactic would have been to spray-glue the offending Cd to the
underside of the commode lid. In my case I didn't buy the nasty thing...it
was sent, unsolicited, in the mail.

You're lucky a state trooper didn't happen to observe your disposal method.
Wouldn't that have been a bitch, to get a littering ticket in addition to
having wasted $16.00 on some junk Cd.

Che'
Arthur Ness
2007-01-18 09:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Stanley,
That's an interesting observation about his departed wife. Do you know when
the ciaconna was
composed? Schmieder says 1720. That's scary! Did you look it up? And the
ciaconna is tacked on. Just like Biber's, also for solo violin.
J. S. himself marked the unaccompanied violin autographs "ao. 1720." So,
no later than 1720. Bach spent the summer of 1720 with Prince Leopald at
Karlsbad and arrived home to find Maria Barbara had died the week before
and was already buried.
Post by Arthur Ness
You knew about the descending tetrachord, of course.
Yes - almost always a lament (Purcell Dido...). I find the "threes" at all
levels of these the cycle to be telling.
Post by Arthur Ness
The Lute News came the other day with a black and white cover portrait of a
guy
cradling a lute. Looked familiar. How do I know that guy, I
asked myself?
Oh, Santa Claus brought him! Yikes! STING!! And inside a long interview
with him by
Chris Goodwin, the Lute Society (UK) Adminstrator.
And Bream apparently gave up the lute because because he wasn't considered
authentic enough!
I bought the Sting CD in a moment of weakness, but through it out the car
window after the first track. Still, it might create some slightly wider
interest in this wonderful music.
Post by Arthur Ness
I think the Affekt is lamentoso.
Oh, I agree, though to a point. A lamentation can approach the histrionic,
but I feel Bach's expression in this piece is largely a model of
understatement and acceptance. I cannot resist a piano opening and a
pianissimo ending to the piece when I perform it. I sometimes play it
piano throughout - total acceptance, no histrionics.
Stanley
Arthur Ness
2007-01-18 11:04:39 UTC
Permalink
Stanley,

I don't see it as having histronics either. Part of the problem is that so
few of these piece have dynamic indications. Some approach
that point, but usually when they are transformed by 19th-century musicians
like Ferrucio Busoni and Ferdinand David (the Vitali "chaconne"***). It's
when they're played in a 19th-century style. But Busoni and David
essentially rewrote the pieces introducing Romantic instrumental techniques.
I remember Gabor Rejto illustrating something in a chamber music class, and
he laid into a Boccehrini piece like he was starting the Dvorak' Cello
Concerto.<g>

I have other things to do today, but may take a few minutes and post some of
the music to my web page when I get home. If I haven't turned into an ice
cube.

As for Sting, did you ever hear Bob Spencer? His singing and playing of
Elisabethan ayres seems to be one to advocate if you favor rge cultured
amateur approach. And of course he knew the music in such depth, he had
much to say in master classes for trained professional vocalists.

***It's not a hoax, _pace_ Wikipedia.
==ajn
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
===================================================
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Stanley,
That's an interesting observation about his departed wife. Do you know when
the ciaconna was
composed? Schmieder says 1720. That's scary! Did you look it up? And the
ciaconna is tacked on. Just like Biber's, also for solo violin.
J. S. himself marked the unaccompanied violin autographs "ao. 1720." So,
no later than 1720. Bach spent the summer of 1720 with Prince Leopald at
Karlsbad and arrived home to find Maria Barbara had died the week before
and was already buried.
Post by Arthur Ness
You knew about the descending tetrachord, of course.
Yes - almost always a lament (Purcell Dido...). I find the "threes" at
all levels of these the cycle to be telling.
Post by Arthur Ness
The Lute News came the other day with a black and white cover portrait of a
guy
cradling a lute. Looked familiar. How do I know that guy, I
asked myself?
Oh, Santa Claus brought him! Yikes! STING!! And inside a long interview
with him by
Chris Goodwin, the Lute Society (UK) Adminstrator.
And Bream apparently gave up the lute because because he wasn't
considered authentic enough!
I bought the Sting CD in a moment of weakness, but through it out the car
window after the first track. Still, it might create some slightly wider
interest in this wonderful music.
Post by Arthur Ness
I think the Affekt is lamentoso.
Oh, I agree, though to a point. A lamentation can approach the
histrionic, but I feel Bach's expression in this piece is largely a model
of understatement and acceptance. I cannot resist a piano opening and a
pianissimo ending to the piece when I perform it. I sometimes play it
piano throughout - total acceptance, no histrionics.
Stanley
Stanley Yates
2007-01-19 04:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Stanley,
I don't see it as having histronics either. Part of the problem is that so
few of these piece have dynamic indications. Some approach
that point, but usually when they are transformed by 19th-century musicians
like Ferrucio Busoni and Ferdinand David (the Vitali "chaconne"***). It's
when they're played in a 19th-century style. But Busoni and David
essentially rewrote the pieces introducing Romantic instrumental techniques.
There can be no question that dynamic inflection is part and parcel of this
music (when peformed on isnstruments capable of it - they were living people
after all. But it's secondary to the compostion itself - dynamic inflection
had not yet become a prominent _compostional_ element (with a few obvious
exceptions).
Post by Arthur Ness
As for Sting, did you ever hear Bob Spencer? His singing and playing of
Elisabethan ayres seems to be one to advocate if you favor rge cultured
amateur approach. And of course he knew the music in such depth, he had
much to say in master classes for trained professional vocalists.
I never did heard Robert Spencer sing - I assume there aren't any
recordings?

***It's not a hoax, _pace_ Wikipedia.

Not just W, all the "standard" writings. Do you have a Vitali source for the
piece? Heifitz-lineage violinists still sometimes recreate his Carnegie Hall
entre with the Vitali (Fidor, for example) - an effective piece no matter
who wrote it!

All the best,

SY
a***@yahoo.com
2007-01-19 06:14:40 UTC
Permalink
I've been following this discussion with interest. Regarding tempo,
it's well to remember that although a familiarity with historical
background and form can be helpful, it can also be misleading. A good
example is "Julia Florida" by Barrios. Many guitarists, noting that
it's a barcarola, play it too fast. But the music itself cries out
for a more lyrical and serene pacing--little is gained by trying to
shoehorn it into a moderate "two to a bar" feel merely because
it's a barcarola.

Ultimately, the music itself must have the final say.

Last year I wrote a short article touching on this subject. Although
the piece I analyzed was far shorter and less complex than Bach's
Ciaccona, the basic idea holds. You can find the article here:

http://www.pooretom.com/sorop.44bis,no.1.html

Tom Poore
Clevelancd Heights, OH
USA
Larry Deack
2007-01-19 06:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I've been following this discussion with interest. Regarding tempo,
it's well to remember that although a familiarity with historical
background and form can be helpful, it can also be misleading. A good
example is "Julia Florida" by Barrios. Many guitarists, noting that
it's a barcarola, play it too fast. But the music itself cries out
for a more lyrical and serene pacing--little is gained by trying to
shoehorn it into a moderate "two to a bar" feel merely because
it's a barcarola.
Oy! Most of the players I've heard play it too slow for me.

For the Chaconee, I don't think overall time for this piece that has
both fast and slow sections tells us much.

Haven't you noticed that as you learn a piece the tempo you like it
played tends to go up?

Bach's tempos were reported by many to be fast to them. Perhaps those
who can play at virtuoso speeds think faster so it sounds slower to
them. Tempo is very subjective and as your internal clock slows down the
world will seem to move faster. If you take drugs to speed you up things
will seem to slow down.
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-19 14:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
I've been following this discussion with interest. Regarding tempo, it's
well to remember that although a familiarity with historical background
and form can be helpful, it can also be misleading. A good example is
"Julia Florida" by Barrios. Many guitarists, noting that it's a
barcarola, play it too fast. But the music itself cries out for a more
lyrical and serene pacing--little is gained by trying to shoehorn it
into a moderate "two to a bar" feel merely because it's a barcarola.
Oy! Most of the players I've heard play it too slow for me.
For the Chaconee, I don't think overall time for this piece that has
both fast and slow sections tells us much.
Of course it gives a minimum pace for the 32nd notes, but who says it
has fast and slow sections? A single tempo greatly heightens the
listener's perception of the unity of the piece, and there is nothing
bent out of shape if the whole is played at a single tempo. To the
contrary, Bach's seamless metamorphoses are half the fun. The thing
doesn't need any extra stitching, IMO. Since surveying it this week a
couple of times at a single tempo, (It's been a very long time.) I can't
imagine going back.

To me Isaac Stern's performance is a model of how to do it on the violin,
but a guitar is not a violin, and I want to take advantage of the
advantages that the guitar has, which are considerable.

Yesterday in the car on NPR I heard a violinist flogging his book. He's a
Chaconnaholic, and they were playing his performance in the background
while he was interviewed. The recording is on the NPR website, they said.
It was surprisingly ungreat.

For me, this seems to be Chaconne week. It follows me wherever I go. ;-)
Post by Larry Deack
Haven't you noticed that as you learn a piece the tempo you like it
played tends to go up?
Can't stay off Spross' original topic eh? Of course a concert artist
hears faster than his audience. When playing something fast, it is
seldom a problem because concert artists are paid to show off. When
playing something that is meant to be slow, the concert artist should
learn to compensate. Some do, some don't. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-01-19 20:17:25 UTC
Permalink
What tempo does Isaac Stern take? Do you have a CD number for his recording?
He is my favorite violinist by far. Another San Francisco bred violinist. I
once met the lady (Levi-Strauss heiress) who gave Stern his first Strad!
Speaking of Oscar Ghiglia (the grandfather) and his friend Modigliani, she
had one over her fireplace.<g> A Modigliani, that is.

Another consideration is that the ciaconna is in sarabande rhythm.
============================================
Post by Arthur Ness
<<snip>>
To me Isaac Stern's performance is a model of how to do it on the violin,
but a guitar is not a violin, and I want to take advantage of the
advantages that the guitar has, which are considerable.
<<snip>>
Post by Arthur Ness
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-19 22:44:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
What tempo does Isaac Stern take? Do you have a CD number for his recording?
There's an old film which is played on the Arts channel, and it may be you
can download it from someplace. Try youtube too. He recorded it many
many times. I don't have it on CD. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Arthur Ness
2007-01-19 16:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Arthur Ness
As for Sting, did you ever hear Bob Spencer? His singing and playing of
Elisabethan ayres seems to be one to advocate if you favor rge cultured
amateur approach. And of course he knew the music in such depth, he had
much to say in master classes for trained professional vocalists.
I never did heard Robert Spencer sing - I assume there aren't any
recordings?
SY
==========================================
As far as I know there are no recordings. He may have wished to maintain an
amateur status. I only heard him sing at recitals that were adjunct to a
masterclass on the Elizabethan ayre.

Some of his stuff (including lots on guitar) is now being made available
from the Royal Academy of
Music, e.g., this iconography ("under construction")

http://www.yorkgate.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/pages/ram/Display.php?irn=1988&QueryPage=%2Femuweb%2Fpages%2Fram%2FQuery.php

I believe he's of the Princess Di Spencers.

arthur.
Arthur Ness
2007-01-19 22:33:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
***It's not a hoax, _pace_ Wikipedia.
Not just W, all the "standard" writings. Do you have a Vitali source for
the piece?
Yes!
Post by Arthur Ness
Heifitz-lineage violinists still sometimes recreate his
Carnegie Hall entre with the Vitali (Fidor, for example) - an effective
piece no matter who wrote it!
All the best,
SY
Dear Stanley,

The standard writings all question the attribution on stylistic grounds
(e.g., New Grove), when compared to Tomaso Vitali's published works, which
are rather
conventional. The Wikipedia says that it's a hoax and was composed by
Ferdinand David. But whoever made that complaint doesn't know about the
original manuscript which is titled "Parte del Tomaso Vitalino." Parte
seems to mean partita, because of the variations. But could it mean
partire, to leave. Which reminds me of another lament by J. S. Bach, "On
the
Departure of Beloved Brother" there is a movement titled "General Lament of
his Friends." It is over a ground (of course<g>).

Anyway, here is something I wrote earlier:

The work is not an original composition by Mendelssohn's
violinist Ferdinand David, or some kind of hoax perpetuated by him.
The original is a "Parte [Partite-"variations"?] del Tomaso
Vitalino," Ms Mus 2037/R-1 in the Sächsische Landesbibliothek in
Dresden (olim MS Cx 1145 in the Kgl. Musikalien-Sammling des Königs
von Sachsen, a private library until 1898). The manuscript probably
originated in Dresden, since it is copied by a principal music scribe
at the Hofkapelle named Jacob Lindner (he copied many of the Vivaldi
works in Dresden). The title Chaconne is David's, and indeed the
four-measure descending tetra chord is typical of chaconnes, but since
the harmonies are not consistently the same, some have classified it as
a passacaglia.

David, who edited and published other baroque violin works from the
Dresden library, transformed the chaconne into a virtuoso 19th-century
piece by adding an idiomatic accompaniment for Konzertflügel. The
violin part is expanded with multiple stops, octave doublings, and
19th-century violinistic figuration (one passage "borrowed" from
Mendelssohn's concerto!). David's cadenza-flourish ends the piece.

The whole is recast into a dynamic arch form, and Romantic dynamics and
bowings abound.

The generally Romantic cast of the work has caused some to suggest that
it is a hoax. And surely the scheme of keys causes one to raise an
eyebrow. The work is in G minor (using a modal signature of one flat),
but soon is in B flat minor, A minor, and even E flat major/against D
sharp minor!! Not the usual scheme of most early 18th century baroque
pieces.

But one is reminded of that enharmonic modulation that
Dresden lutenist S. L. Wiess penned. Dresden resident Heinrich
Heinichen has a prelude through all the keys, and there is a beautiful
one by lutenist Adam Falkenhagen (recorded by Paul Beier-20 minutes
in length).

And Tomaso's father in 1689 published a passagallo that
begins in E flat major, and ends many measures later in E major, or as
he titles it "Passagallo, che principia per B molle, E finischere per
diesis." The same collection has a balletto that uses simultaneously
meters of C, 12/8 and Ÿ, and another balletto ingenuously uses both F
sharp and G flat (compare Tomaso's Eb minor vs D# minor). And in the
university library at Rostock is a viola da gamba piece with a key signature
that uses B flat, and the octave
below a B natural. Experimentation was very much in the air back then,
too.

The father (and son?) seem to be 18th-century Iveses.

There are scores of the original in facsimile (Zentralantiquariat der
DDR), modern editions with realized figured bass, and virtuoso
transformation for solo piano by Carlo Salina (dedicated to Busoni).
Respighi orchestrated it too, (scroll down to it).

http://www.maratbisengaliev.com/video.htm

(he also plays Asturias for solo violin!)

Let's give back to Vitali his wonderful piece!! Or give it back to
"Anonymous of the 18th Century."
Larry Deack
2007-01-19 22:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
The Wikipedia says that it's a hoax and was composed by
Ferdinand David. But whoever made that complaint doesn't know about the
original manuscript which is titled "Parte del Tomaso Vitalino."
Edit the Wikipedia entry if you think the article is wrong.

I love the Wiki idea because it makes fools of those who complain
about its veracity yet fail to understand the nature of collaborative
open source solutions to the problem of exclusionary culturally bound
social systems.
Arthur Ness
2007-01-26 03:06:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Arthur Ness
The Wikipedia says that it's a hoax and was composed by
Ferdinand David. But whoever made that complaint doesn't know about the
original manuscript which is titled "Parte del Tomaso Vitalino."
Edit the Wikipedia entry if you think the article is wrong.
I love the Wiki idea because it makes fools of those who complain about
its veracity yet fail to understand the nature of collaborative open
source solutions to the problem of exclusionary culturally bound social
systems.
============================================
Here's one view contrary to yours regarding the futility of using OSS (Open
Source Solutions) to make encyclopedias. Significantly the author is one
of the founders of the Wikipedia:

http://www.citizendium.org/how_openness_works.html

Is he a fool, too?

Just take another look at the article on "pitch" that
you recommended to us some while back. It's gibberish.

I would say, Larry, that the fools are those who read this crap and extol
its virtues. And somehow believe it's OK to publish mistake-filled articles
in an encyclopedia with the expectation that someone will come along and
correct them. Why not get the facts correct the first time? OSS may work
for computer hackers, but it doesn't work for authors of an encyclopedia.

Judging from Joshua Rifkin's experience, it would be foolish to get
involved with the activities of the ego-driven persons who write these
articles (many are high school students). And what can anyone do with some
of these articles except re-write them in their entirety. And who has time
to do that? The "pitch" article doesn't use the word "vibration" or
"oscillation" anywhere. And how can you define "pitch" without using one of
those
words. The author also confuses "pitch" (vibrations per second) with
"timbre" or
"tone color" (created by strenghth of various overtones), which should be
dealt with separately. Not by an erroneous mention in the SECOND sentence!.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Rifkin

Is Joshua a fool, too?

When you start pointing your finger, Larry, you might remember that
three fingers are pointed right back at YOU.

==ajn
(Who just corrected Wiki articles on two of his teachers. Now we'll see how
long the corrections remain.)
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/id1.html
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/musexx/jjexx.html

=============================================
Larry Deack
2007-01-26 03:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Here's one view contrary to yours regarding the futility of using OSS (Open
Source Solutions) to make encyclopedias. Significantly the author is one
http://www.citizendium.org/how_openness_works.html
Is he a fool, too?
Wow. No, he's got the hang of it just fine. Nice article. Thanks.
Post by Arthur Ness
Just take another look at the article on "pitch" that
you recommended to us some while back. It's gibberish.
Well it's gibberish that my students are likely to read. Hopefully
some people will help make it more reliable rather than just complain
about how it can't do what it does as well as it does. Thanks for doing
the edits.
Post by Arthur Ness
I would say, Larry, that the fools are those who read this crap and extol
its virtues. And somehow believe it's OK to publish mistake-filled articles
in an encyclopedia with the expectation that someone will come along and
correct them. Why not get the facts correct the first time? OSS may work
for computer hackers, but it doesn't work for authors of an encyclopedia.
Is that what you got from the article? Wow! I got something entirely
the opposite. I agree with the article that scholars need to get
involved and that the structure is far from perfect mostly due to the
lack of expert articles.
Post by Arthur Ness
Judging from Joshua Rifkin's experience, it would be foolish to get
involved with the activities of the ego-driven persons who write these
articles (many are high school students).
Uh, I think he's advocating getting involved. Are we reading the same
article?
Post by Arthur Ness
Is Joshua a fool, too?
Huh? Sorry I must have missed something here.
Post by Arthur Ness
When you start pointing your finger, Larry, you might remember that
three fingers are pointed right back at YOU.
What finger? Hey, I'm glad you did the edits. It's a weird world with
some weird things happening. The web is still in its infancy. We will
soon be mobile and connected all the time in real time. Wiki and things
like it are changing much of how people access information. It's not
personal and it's not optional, it just is and it will continue long
after we have left the game.

Thanks again.

Stanley Yates
2007-01-20 03:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Arthur,

Thanks for the information on the Vitali chaconne. By the way, I agree with
you about the Bach chaconne being in Sarabande rhythm - that's exactly what
I was alluding to in a previous post when I mentioned that I felt the piece
was "something else" in chaconne form.

Interesting about Spencer being one the "Spencers." Perhaps explains his
ability to have amassed such an amazing collection of musical artifacts...

Best,

Stanley
Post by Arthur Ness
Post by Arthur Ness
***It's not a hoax, _pace_ Wikipedia.
Not just W, all the "standard" writings. Do you have a Vitali source for
the piece?
Yes!
Post by Arthur Ness
Heifitz-lineage violinists still sometimes recreate his
Carnegie Hall entre with the Vitali (Fidor, for example) - an effective
piece no matter who wrote it!
All the best,
SY
Dear Stanley,
The standard writings all question the attribution on stylistic grounds
(e.g., New Grove), when compared to Tomaso Vitali's published works, which
are rather
conventional. The Wikipedia says that it's a hoax and was composed by
Ferdinand David. But whoever made that complaint doesn't know about the
original manuscript which is titled "Parte del Tomaso Vitalino." Parte
seems to mean partita, because of the variations. But could it mean
partire, to leave. Which reminds me of another lament by J. S. Bach, "On
the
Departure of Beloved Brother" there is a movement titled "General Lament of
his Friends." It is over a ground (of course<g>).
The work is not an original composition by Mendelssohn's
violinist Ferdinand David, or some kind of hoax perpetuated by him.
The original is a "Parte [Partite-"variations"?] del Tomaso
Vitalino," Ms Mus 2037/R-1 in the Sächsische Landesbibliothek in
Dresden (olim MS Cx 1145 in the Kgl. Musikalien-Sammling des Königs
von Sachsen, a private library until 1898). The manuscript probably
originated in Dresden, since it is copied by a principal music scribe
at the Hofkapelle named Jacob Lindner (he copied many of the Vivaldi
works in Dresden). The title Chaconne is David's, and indeed the
four-measure descending tetra chord is typical of chaconnes, but since
the harmonies are not consistently the same, some have classified it as
a passacaglia.
David, who edited and published other baroque violin works from the
Dresden library, transformed the chaconne into a virtuoso 19th-century
piece by adding an idiomatic accompaniment for Konzertflügel. The
violin part is expanded with multiple stops, octave doublings, and
19th-century violinistic figuration (one passage "borrowed" from
Mendelssohn's concerto!). David's cadenza-flourish ends the piece.
The whole is recast into a dynamic arch form, and Romantic dynamics and
bowings abound.
The generally Romantic cast of the work has caused some to suggest that
it is a hoax. And surely the scheme of keys causes one to raise an
eyebrow. The work is in G minor (using a modal signature of one flat),
but soon is in B flat minor, A minor, and even E flat major/against D
sharp minor!! Not the usual scheme of most early 18th century baroque
pieces.
But one is reminded of that enharmonic modulation that
Dresden lutenist S. L. Wiess penned. Dresden resident Heinrich
Heinichen has a prelude through all the keys, and there is a beautiful
one by lutenist Adam Falkenhagen (recorded by Paul Beier-20 minutes
in length).
And Tomaso's father in 1689 published a passagallo that
begins in E flat major, and ends many measures later in E major, or as
he titles it "Passagallo, che principia per B molle, E finischere per
diesis." The same collection has a balletto that uses simultaneously
meters of C, 12/8 and Ÿ, and another balletto ingenuously uses both F
sharp and G flat (compare Tomaso's Eb minor vs D# minor). And in the
university library at Rostock is a viola da gamba piece with a key signature
that uses B flat, and the octave
below a B natural. Experimentation was very much in the air back then,
too.
The father (and son?) seem to be 18th-century Iveses.
There are scores of the original in facsimile (Zentralantiquariat der
DDR), modern editions with realized figured bass, and virtuoso
transformation for solo piano by Carlo Salina (dedicated to Busoni).
Respighi orchestrated it too, (scroll down to it).
http://www.maratbisengaliev.com/video.htm
(he also plays Asturias for solo violin!)
Let's give back to Vitali his wonderful piece!! Or give it back to
"Anonymous of the 18th Century."
Arthur Ness
2007-01-20 13:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Stanley,

Yes, often chaconnes will have the sarabande rhythm. I haven't had time to
put up the musical examples that go with the pieces I cited by title or
lyrics. (Too many other projects landed on my desk yesterday!) Now I'm
tempted to look into that CD by the Hilliard Ensemble.

http://www.ecmrecords.com/Press_Reactions/New_Series/1700/Pressreaction_1765.php

It seems farfetched. But who knows?

Bob Spencer was indeed probably a wealthy individual. He was very geneous
in sharing his library and instruments with other musicians and scholars.
And even after his passing, the generosity continues at the Royal Academy of
Music, where his library and instruments now reside. I have photocopies of
the three concerto lute works that he purchased in 1956 from the Harrach
collection (in pitch
notation, not tablature). The Harrach estate is in Rohrau, where Haydn was
born. His mother worked for a while in the Harrach kitchen.<g>

Arthur.
=================================================================
Post by Stanley Yates
Arthur,
Thanks for the information on the Vitali chaconne. By the way, I agree
with you about the Bach chaconne being in Sarabande rhythm - that's
exactly what I was alluding to in a previous post when I mentioned that I
felt the piece was "something else" in chaconne form.
Interesting about Spencer being one the "Spencers." Perhaps explains his
ability to have amassed such an amazing collection of musical artifacts...
Best,
Stanley
Stanley Yates
2007-01-20 16:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Stanley,
Yes, often chaconnes will have the sarabande rhythm. I haven't had time to
put up the musical examples that go with the pieces I cited by title or
lyrics. (Too many other projects landed on my desk yesterday!) Now I'm
tempted to look into that CD by the Hilliard Ensemble.
http://www.ecmrecords.com/Press_Reactions/New_Series/1700/Pressreaction_1765.php
It seems farfetched. But who knows?
Arthur,

I've had this Cd for a few years. It is interesting, but the superimposition
of the chorales isn't at all convincing to me. With the approach taken, one
could extract any melody imaginable from the violin orignal.

SY
Arthur Ness
2007-01-21 17:55:39 UTC
Permalink
Good morning,

Yes, anyone can add a melody to an exisiting piece. And it's been done
rather frequently. Every church organist has experienced having to add a
descant to a hymn when one of the parishoners boasts about his child's
abilities on the trumpet.<g>

I now have Gounod's "Ave Maria No. 2." A double whammy with a violin
obbligato. This is the one composed above BWV 999. I'm going to post it to
my web page, perhaps.

Arthur.
============================================
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Arthur Ness
Stanley,
Yes, often chaconnes will have the sarabande rhythm. I haven't had time to
put up the musical examples that go with the pieces I cited by title or
lyrics. (Too many other projects landed on my desk yesterday!) Now I'm
tempted to look into that CD by the Hilliard Ensemble.
http://www.ecmrecords.com/Press_Reactions/New_Series/1700/Pressreaction_1765.php
It seems farfetched. But who knows?
Arthur,
I've had this Cd for a few years. It is interesting, but the
superimposition of the chorales isn't at all convincing to me. With the
approach taken, one could extract any melody imaginable from the violin
orignal.
SY
Arthur Ness
2007-01-21 17:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Stanley,

Thanks for the information. I think I'll take a pass on this one. I expected
that there was some manipulation.

The Hilliard Ensemble has some nice things out. So I'll save
my money for another of their CDs.

Incidentally the BSO concert last night included Mozart's C minor Piano
Concerto (K. 491), and I was reminded that it is another chaconne theme in
the first movement. Complete with the descending chromatic line through a
tetrachord. It is almost a
monothematic movement, and really represents the "Baroque Mozart" with its
ritornello structure. It would be a mistake to hear this movement as being
proto Romantic, unless one considers Sturm und Drang to be proto-Romantic.

Almost the same theme appears somewhere else by another composer. A baroque
composer, IIRC. But I've forgotten who it is.
Arthur.
=================================================
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Arthur Ness
Stanley,
Yes, often chaconnes will have the sarabande rhythm. I haven't had time to
put up the musical examples that go with the pieces I cited by title or
lyrics. (Too many other projects landed on my desk yesterday!) Now I'm
tempted to look into that CD by the Hilliard Ensemble.
http://www.ecmrecords.com/Press_Reactions/New_Series/1700/Pressreaction_1765.php
It seems farfetched. But who knows?
Arthur,
I've had this Cd for a few years. It is interesting, but the
superimposition of the chorales isn't at all convincing to me. With the
approach taken, one could extract any melody imaginable from the violin
orignal.
SY
Arthur Ness
2007-01-19 16:40:15 UTC
Permalink
Now there's this re: Bach's first wife:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B00005ND3J/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/102-5000614-8608941?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music

Off hand this seems to be far fetched. But who knows? I haven't read it
(yet?). And the Hillard Singers probably wouldn't lend their name to
something unless it had some valid basis. I wonder what tempo they take.<g>

I'll try to get some of the pieces I cited on my web page.
===============================================
Post by Arthur Ness
Stanley,
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Arthur Ness
That's an interesting observation about his departed wife. Do you know when
the ciaconna was
composed? Schmieder says 1720. That's scary! Did you look it up? And the
ciaconna is tacked on. Just like Biber's, also for solo violin.
J. S. himself marked the unaccompanied violin autographs "ao. 1720." So,
no later than 1720. Bach spent the summer of 1720 with Prince Leopald at
Karlsbad and arrived home to find Maria Barbara had died the week before
and was already buried.
Post by Arthur Ness
You knew about the descending tetrachord, of course.
Yes - almost always a lament (Purcell Dido...). I find the "threes" at
all levels of these the cycle to be telling.
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-18 17:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Arthur Ness
Dear Stanley,
That's an interesting observation about his departed wife. Do you know when
the ciaconna was
composed? Schmieder says 1720. That's scary! Did you look it up? And the
ciaconna is tacked on. Just like Biber's, also for solo violin.
J. S. himself marked the unaccompanied violin autographs "ao. 1720." So,
no later than 1720. Bach spent the summer of 1720 with Prince Leopald
at Karlsbad and arrived home to find Maria Barbara had died the week
before and was already buried.
Post by Arthur Ness
You knew about the descending tetrachord, of course.
Yes - almost always a lament (Purcell Dido...). I find the "threes" at
all levels of these the cycle to be telling.
Post by Arthur Ness
The Lute News came the other day with a black and white cover portrait of a
guy
cradling a lute. Looked familiar. How do I know that guy, I asked
myself?
Oh, Santa Claus brought him! Yikes! STING!! And inside a long
interview with him by
Chris Goodwin, the Lute Society (UK) Adminstrator.
And Bream apparently gave up the lute because because he wasn't
considered authentic enough!
I bought the Sting CD in a moment of weakness, but through it out the
car window after the first track. Still, it might create some slightly
wider interest in this wonderful music.
Post by Arthur Ness
I think the Affekt is lamentoso.
Oh, I agree, though to a point. A lamentation can approach the
histrionic, but I feel Bach's expression in this piece is largely a
model of understatement and acceptance. I cannot resist a piano opening
and a pianissimo ending to the piece
I agree completely. In fact, I tried just the last few bars on a dozen
students last night, comparing a steep decrescendo to a ppp ending with
the usual "this is a big deal, listen to my trill" ending, and it won't
surprise you that the ppp ending seemed to be much more effective with
that tiny audience.

The part in the major mode section with the three repeated notes seems to
me to be very comical in character, and intended to be so. Different
strokes, I guess.
:-) daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-17 22:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
I haven't much more to add. I saw a reference to Busoni's performance of
his virtuoso arrangement of the chaconne. He does it in 15:25. That's
about Q =MM50. I think I prefer about Q=60. But Satoh's in 17 minutes
(Q=45) seems just right for his instrument. He also uses a bit of
rubato, and at that tempo it is very effective. Which leads to one other
consideration. What is the Affekt?
I'm sure that Bach gave the Affekt all of the
consideration it deserved. ;-) daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Larry Deack
2007-01-17 23:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
I'm sure that Bach gave the Affekt all of the
consideration it deserved. ;-) daveA
:-)
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-21 00:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Ness
Oh, I'm not going to argue one way or the other, Dave. Certainly there
are purists around who would hold that any performance today is not
authentic Bach.
If it has the original notes it's authentic enough for me. Something
might be good enough if it's not authentic, but why not play something
that is, if you can? Transposing the prelude to the first cello suite to
D, up a fifth, does much more violence to the original than transposing
the Chaconne down an octave, IMO, not because you want to sound like a
cello but because that piece in particular was written largely with
the character of a bass part. There is no such problem here.

I must compare Segovia's arrangement with the original. I will do so
before I invest more time in it. It seems to be a bit grumbly on the
bottom. More muting? We'll see.

In advocating an orchestral tempo, I am neither advocating nor
approving nor badmouthing anything about the arrangements. My *only*
point is that the tempos *have* to be ok for guitar if they work for
orchestra. How could they not be? The probability of a more steady tempo
in an orchestral performance is so likely that I didn't even consider,
*won't* consider, that there are conductors out there who would do
otherwise. I simply can't get my head around that. I am almost sure that
I have never even heard *any* orchestration of the Chaconne. Just knowing
that they exist, and that they are slower, suffices. That the piano
transcriptions seem to be slower is interesting to pianists but completely
irrelevant to choosing a guitar tempo, because the piano's inability to
play a true legato surely influences the pianist's tempo choices. Surely
tha orchestra can do anything, or almost anything, a guitar can do. It
simply doesn't matter that the guitar can't do everything an orchestra can
do, because we don't have orchestral music here to be concerned about.

This tempo situation is a cliche'. If you want to play anything
with a more steady tempo, you have to play it slower than otherwise,
because you have to compromise more instead of playing fast everything
which you want to hear fast. It's simple arithmetic, not rocket science.
Happens all the time.

If you play the Chaconne at a rock solid tempo, you avoid putting your
own spin on the music, and you are better able to hear Bach speak to you,
IMO. How can you emphasize one thing, voices, phrases, or motives, without
short changing something else? That seems to happen every time with the
Chaconne. Time to stop that? For myself, I think so. It would be
to ignore what I admire most about the piece to do otherwise. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
a***@yahoo.com
2007-01-21 04:06:38 UTC
Permalink
Stanley Yates
2007-01-21 05:17:10 UTC
Permalink
Tom,

Record your interpretation and put it online. Its' not a technically
difficult piece. Once you put it online, I'll do the same within 7 days.
Furthermore, I'll do it in your choice of key: e-mi, d-mi or b-mi. Then
we'll discuss interpretation. OK?

SY


<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
There's a well-known quote from the Pesach Haggadah: "why is this
night different from all other nights?" Its purpose is to prompt an
examination of the Passover and its significance. It also, I think,
suggests an approach to a deeper understanding of Bach's Ciaconna.

While there's much to be gained by examining the historical context
of Bach's Ciaconna, the danger is that doing so creates the illusion
that the Ciaconna is merely a product of its time. We know this to be
false. Bach's Ciaconna towers above any other example of its time.
One need not be a trained musician to sense this. We instinctively
realize that this piece is different from all others. And it's the
exploration of this difference that offers the greatest reward for the
performer.

As an example of how a too historically minded examination can cramp
understanding, consider the matter of the sarabande rhythm. I agree
this is one factor to consider in understanding the Ciaconna. But is it
a crucial factor? First, the sarabande rhythm shows up in many
chaccones or passacaglias. Offhand I can think of examples by Couperin,
Corbetta, Handel, and de Visée, and surely there are many others.
Further, while the sarabande rhythm is certainly present in some of the
variations in Bach's Ciaconna, it's absent through much of the piece.
It seems to me that the sarabande rhythm question serves only to shrink
Bach's Ciaconna into something it's assuredly not: just another
ciaconna.

I hasten to add that I don't dismiss the sarabande rhythm question
outright. As I said, it's something to consider. But in light of
Bach's larger musical purpose, it devolves to almost a "yes, but so
what?" status. Bach had bigger fish to fry than writing a 257 measure
sarabande.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Larry Deack
2007-01-21 06:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Record your interpretation and put it online. Its' not a technically
difficult piece.
A size contest??? Cool! Tom, my man, it be your move!
a***@yahoo.com
2007-01-21 15:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Tom,
Record your interpretation and put it online. Its' not a technically
difficult piece. Once you put it online, I'll do the same within 7 days.
Furthermore, I'll do it in your choice of key: e-mi, d-mi or b-mi. Then
we'll discuss interpretation. OK?
SY
Samples of my playing are already on my web site. They should be
sufficient indicators my playing ability. If you really must hear me
play Bach before you'll consider my opinion, try this:
http://www.pooretom.com/bachpreludeind.html

Further, this thread is a discussion about how one makes expressive
decisions in Bach's Ciaconna. It's not a contest to see who can outplay
whom. If a composer who played no instrument well gave an opinion,
would you dismiss it merely because he can't play as well as you? And
is your opinion invalid because some musicians can outplay you? I don't
expect such behavior from a professional teacher. When one of your
students questions something you've said, I doubt that you insult his
playing and then challenge him to a battle of the bands.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Stanley Yates
2007-01-21 17:35:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by Stanley Yates
Tom,
Record your interpretation and put it online. Its' not a technically
difficult piece. Once you put it online, I'll do the same within 7 days.
Furthermore, I'll do it in your choice of key: e-mi, d-mi or b-mi. Then
we'll discuss interpretation. OK?
SY
Samples of my playing are already on my web site. They should be
sufficient indicators my playing ability. If you really must hear me
http://www.pooretom.com/bachpreludeind.html
Further, this thread is a discussion about how one makes expressive
decisions in Bach's Ciaconna. It's not a contest to see who can outplay
whom. If a composer who played no instrument well gave an opinion,
would you dismiss it merely because he can't play as well as you? And
is your opinion invalid because some musicians can outplay you? I don't
expect such behavior from a professional teacher. When one of your
students questions something you've said, I doubt that you insult his
playing and then challenge him to a battle of the bands.
OK, record the the first 24 measures only. This had nothing to do with
playing the guitrar, it's about demonstrating musical ideas, the only way
they can be demonstrated - in sound. Music cannot be described fully in
words. It has to be heard. You are very opinionated on the subject, so lets
hear how your opinions inform your interpretation of the piece. Then we'll
actually know what we're discussing. Otherwise, it's just so much BS. Words
are cheap, sp let;s here it Tom. You,ve got the ability to make a recording.
How long will it take you to record the first 24 measures? An afternoon?
Larry Deack
2007-01-21 18:06:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
OK, record the the first 24 measures only.
Oh goody goody! Can I play too?

You show me yours and I'll show mine.

Maybe some others will want to play too but somebody has to be brave
enough to go first. So drop those shorts and let's see what you got!
Stanley Yates
2007-01-21 18:50:33 UTC
Permalink
More the merrier Larry. Should be an interesting experiment and seems to me
the only truly meanigful way to "discuss" interpretation.
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Stanley Yates
OK, record the the first 24 measures only.
Oh goody goody! Can I play too?
You show me yours and I'll show mine.
Maybe some others will want to play too but somebody has to be brave
enough to go first. So drop those shorts and let's see what you got!
Larry Deack
2007-01-21 20:10:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
More the merrier Larry. Should be an interesting experiment and seems to me
the only truly meanigful way to "discuss" interpretation.
Oh key doe key smoky! I'll go first then... I love being the fool!

I haven't played it in years so be genteel.

http://www.larrydeack.com/chaconne.mp3
John Rimmer
2007-01-21 20:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Stanley Yates
More the merrier Larry. Should be an interesting experiment and seems to
me the only truly meanigful way to "discuss" interpretation.
Oh key doe key smoky! I'll go first then... I love being the fool!
I haven't played it in years so be genteel.
http://www.larrydeack.com/chaconne.mp3
You are really asking that from the wrong crowd!!! Thanks for posting. I'm
listening.

John
a***@yahoo.com
2007-01-22 00:45:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
OK, record the the first 24 measures only. This had nothing to do with
playing the guitrar, it's about demonstrating musical ideas, the only way
they can be demonstrated - in sound. Music cannot be described fully in
words. It has to be heard. You are very opinionated on the subject, so lets
hear how your opinions inform your interpretation of the piece. Then we'll
actually know what we're discussing. Otherwise, it's just so much BS. Words
are cheap, sp let;s here it Tom. You,ve got the ability to make a recording.
How long will it take you to record the first 24 measures? An afternoon?
To my knowledge, you've never recorded the Ciaconna. So how do we know
that yours would be a worthy interpretation? Yet no one here has
challenged you to record and post your interpretation of the Ciaconna.
But since you insist, here it is. Since the humidity was very low, I
recorded this on my $100 Yamaha:
http://www.pooretom.com/ciaconnaexcerpt.html

As I've pointed out before, this isn't a thread about who can outplay
whom. In fact, it's not a thread about who can better play the
Ciaconna. There are, I imagine, great players who can give a
transcendental performance of the Ciaconna, but couldn't begin to
describe how they do it. There are others who can write about the
Ciaconna in a compelling way, but couldn't play a lick. One of the best
articles I've read about the Ciaconna is Felicitas Curti's "J. S.
Bach's Chaconne in D minor: A Study in Coherence and Contrast." I've
never heard her play, nor do I need to. The excellence of her article
speaks for itself, regardless of whether or not she can play.

You felt no need to demand a playing sample from anyone until I
disagreed with a particular point you made. Forgive me if I suspect
your sudden urge for a playing slap fight is motivated by something
other than genuine scholarship. And no, I won't demand that you reply
with your own recording. This is a schoolyard tactic that should have
no place in a serious discussion.

And you also made me miss the fourth quarter of the Bears-Saints game.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Robert Crim
2007-01-22 01:15:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
But since you insist, here it is. Since the humidity was very low, I
I listened to both your and Deack's version and I have one
question......why do you both play that so violently? I don't hear
the elegance of the piece. IMO, it's supposed to be a majestic
introduction, not an introduction to a fight.

Robert
Larry Deack
2007-01-22 01:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
IMO, it's supposed to be a majestic
introduction, not an introduction to a fight.
No! No! Roberto!

Can't you see the irony? Of course it's a fight. Post your version and
let us hear what think and not what you say. That was the point of this
thread.
Robert Crim
2007-01-22 01:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Robert Crim
IMO, it's supposed to be a majestic
introduction, not an introduction to a fight.
No! No! Roberto!
Can't you see the irony? Of course it's a fight. Post your version and
let us hear what think and not what you say. That was the point of this
thread.
The last time I played the piece in concert was about 15 years ago on
a 13 course lute. I cannot play it anymore, and won't even try.

I did not, however, play it as a part of a "throw down" but rather as
a dance form with lots of nice variations.....kind of like "Folias."

Robert
Larry Deack
2007-01-22 02:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
The last time I played the piece in concert was about 15 years ago on
a 13 course lute. I cannot play it anymore, and won't even try.
Ah, too bad. I bet it would have been very nice here. I am lucky I
can play anything after some of the fun stuff life throws at us, eh?
Post by Robert Crim
I did not, however, play it as a part of a "throw down" but rather as
a dance form with lots of nice variations.....kind of like "Folias."
Well, son this here is RMCG you see... we throw down at the least
little thing... like spruce or cedar or needing more holes in our heads
so as we can hear what each other says clearer since we are are surely
deaf by now after all this hear shouting!!!!!!
Robert Crim
2007-01-22 02:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
I am lucky I
can play anything after some of the fun stuff life throws at us, eh?
Same here. It's the process I now enjoy rather than the results.

Robert
Larry Deack
2007-01-22 02:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
Same here. It's the process I now enjoy rather than the results.
I thought it was fun to try to play that piece after so long and so I
dug out my Segovia transcription and had some fun seeing how fast I
could get those 24 measures in one take. It took me three takes to get
it just to that point after going over it a just a bit today. It was the
time thing that was fun for me and the Segovia transcription that is fun
to play with. The process is fun.

It's nice to be able to just feel the music from the inside.
a***@yahoo.com
2007-01-22 03:42:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
I listened to both your and Deack's version and I have one
question......why do you both play that so violently? I don't hear
the elegance of the piece. IMO, it's supposed to be a majestic
introduction, not an introduction to a fight.
I did not, however, play it as a part of a "throw down" but rather as
a dance form with lots of nice variations.....kind of like "Folias."
I see Bach's Ciaconna as perhaps the greatest tragedy in all of music.
It is to music what Shakespeare's "Lear" is to drama. Further, the
stern qualities of the beginning and end are needed to set off the
variations in mm. 177-208, where Bach expresses a serenity that builds
to an ecstatic affirmation. This section loses some of its poignancy if
the beginning is played politely.

I see little elegant about the Ciaconna. It's a passionate piece--not
for nothing that Bach chose the Italian term for this piece. Bear in
mind also that Bach himself was hardly a dandy. He did, after all, pull
a sword on one of his students.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
John Philip Dimick
2007-01-22 04:11:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
http://www.pooretom.com/ciaconnaexcerpt.html
Nice. I hope we get to hear more someday.
a***@yahoo.com
2007-01-22 15:15:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Philip Dimick
Nice. I hope we get to hear more someday.
Thanks, but it's unlikely to be any time soon. I'm working on
repertoire for a new duet recording with one of my students. So this
year is pretty much given over to that.

I did the Ciaconna for my first master's recital some years ago. Also
did my thesis on it. When Stanley challenged me to record the first 24
measures, my first sense was to ignore it as a schoolyard taunt. But as
I was watching the NFL playoffs, I got to wondering if I could still
find my Ciaconna transcription. So I started digging through my music.
Once I went through the trouble of finding it, I thought what the hell,
I might as well do the recording.

After all, I live to serve.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2007-01-22 16:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Post by John Philip Dimick
Nice. I hope we get to hear more someday.
Thanks, but it's unlikely to be any time soon. I'm working on
repertoire for a new duet recording with one of my students. So this
year is pretty much given over to that.
I did the Ciaconna for my first master's recital some years ago. Also
did my thesis on it. When Stanley challenged me to record the first 24
measures, my first sense was to ignore it as a schoolyard taunt. But as
I was watching the NFL playoffs, I got to wondering if I could still
find my Ciaconna transcription. So I started digging through my music.
Once I went through the trouble of finding it, I thought what the hell,
I might as well do the recording.
After all, I live to serve.
Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
I saw "violence" in neither your version nor Larry's. My first
impression was that yours was more "traditional" while Larry's actually
sounded somewhat "Spanish" in approach, esp. in some of the rubatos and
the vibrato toward the later measures. But then I tried to remember the
approach of the better-known violinists. I'm going to have to pull out
my Nathan Milstein recording. This morning on the way to work I was
listening to Hopkinson Smith play this on baroque lute. It was
certainly forceful--almost strident, but still I wouldn't characterize
it as "violent".

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Larry Deack
2007-01-22 17:12:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
I saw "violence" in neither your version nor Larry's. My first
impression was that yours was more "traditional" while Larry's actually
sounded somewhat "Spanish" in approach, esp. in some of the rubatos and
the vibrato toward the later measures.
Cool. I was using the Segovia transcription and trying to follow the
fingerings and score. If I was to play this again I would do it
differently. I like much of the stuff Tom did.
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
But then I tried to remember the
approach of the better-known violinists. I'm going to have to pull out
my Nathan Milstein recording. This morning on the way to work I was
listening to Hopkinson Smith play this on baroque lute. It was
certainly forceful--almost strident, but still I wouldn't characterize
it as "violent".
Mine was violent, dang nab it! It was my _kickass_ response to
Stanley's "I can do it in three keys!" taunt. The kid in me came out and
I wanted to post something to see if anybody would scream about how
little it sounded like "how Bach would have played it".

I like the ticking clock of having to get something playable in under
and hour. Now if he'd asked me to the whole thing... iieeeeeek! Stanley
is showing off his stainless steel set while I'm lucky to have wood.

I was also hoping for more people to jump in with a quickie, like
Kent or any of the others here who teach. Stanley is right that talk is
cheap. The reality is that Bach is very flexible and can still entertain
the player no matter how upset it makes a listener if it does not
conform to their rules about how it should be played.

These show and tell threads tend to peter out since so few players
jump in. I'd love to hear Mark's version! Come on in, folks, the water's
fine!!
a***@yahoo.com
2007-01-23 17:03:31 UTC
Permalink
Looking over this thread, I wanted to respond to some statements with
which I take issue. Below are the statements followed by my responses.

"What is the Affekt?"

A better question would be "what are the affekts?" For example,
surely mm. 85-88 don't exhibit the same affekt as mm. 185-188.

"By the way, I agree with you about the Bach chaconne
being in Sarabande rhythm - that's exactly what I was
alluding to in a previous post when I mentioned that I felt
the piece was "something else" in chaconne form."

...and:

"Personally, I don't regard this piece as simply a chaconne
- it's something else cast in chaconne form only at its
broadest level."

Formally, there's nothing unusual about Bach's Ciaccona. All the
variations (save one) are four measures long. The descending tetrachord
on which it's based can be distilled from every variation.

"A lamentation can approach the histrionic, but I feel Bach's
expression in this piece is largely a model of understatement
and acceptance. I cannot resist a piano opening and a pianis-
simo ending to the piece when I perform it. I sometimes play
it piano throughout - total acceptance, no histrionics."

This statement is refuted by the music itself. To play piano throughout
mm. 89-120 is to completely miss the obvious build up of tension. And
how can anyone hear mm. 241-248 as total acceptance?

"There can be no question that dynamic inflection is part
and parcel of this music (when peformed on isnstruments
capable of it - they were living people after all. But it's se-
condary to the compostion itself - dynamic inflection had
not yet become a prominent _compostional_ element (with
a few obvious exceptions)."

Again, this statement is refuted by the music itself. Changes in
dissonance, texture, tessitura, and rhythmic activity all imply dynamic
inflection. Dynamic inflection is no more secondary to a performance of
Bach's Ciaccona than it is to a performance of Rodrigo's Invocacion
y Danza. Further, dynamics are an obvious baroque compositional
element. The concerto grosso--pitting a small group of instruments
against a larger group--is one obvious example. Juxtaposing
recitatives, solo arias, and choruses within a cantata or opera is
another.

"I did not, however, play it as a part of a "throw down"
but rather as a dance form with lots of nice variations
.....kind of like 'Folias.'"

Strictly speaking, this is correct. Bach's Ciaccona is a dance with a
lot of variations. But this misses the larger picture. Bach's
compositional goal in the Ciaccona was to avoid the "one damn thing
after another" feel so common to theme and variation works.

Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
Larry Deack
2007-01-23 17:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
The descending tetrachord
on which it's based can be
distilled from every variation.
-snip-
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Strictly speaking, this is correct. Bach's Ciaccona is a dance with a
lot of variations. But this misses the larger picture. Bach's
compositional goal in the Ciaccona was to avoid the "one damn thing
after another" feel so common to theme and variation works.
There is also the idea of a never ending downward spiral that may be
related to the Shepard Tone illusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_tone
Arthur Ness
2007-01-23 22:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Looking over this thread, I wanted to respond to some statements with
which I take issue. Below are the statements followed by my responses.
"What is the Affekt?"
Here are some _text_ associations with chaconnes, and especially the ones,
like BWV 1004, with a descending tetrachord. That's the "context" Stanley
was talking about.

Cessez mes yeulx (Crecquillon)
Flow my teares (Dowland)
Lachrimae or Seaven Teares (Dowland)
Lachrimae Pavan (Dowland)
Forlorn Hope (Dowland)
Amor dove dov'è fe' ce'el traditor giurò (Monteverdi)
L'amant malheureux (Gallot)
L'amant malheureux (Weiss)
Weinen, klagen, sorgen, zagen (JSB)
Ist ein allgemeines Lamento der Freunde (JSB)
Jesu, der du meine Seele, hast durch deinen bittern Tod (JSB)
Crucifixus, cruxifixus, cruxifixus (JSB)
Canon triplex a 6 vocibus (JSB#14: "Thanks, Georg"#11)
When I am laid in earth (Purcell)
Meine Tage in den Leiden (JSB)
(the only other piece titled 'ciaconna" by JSB;
first publ. 1884 in BGA with corrections by Brahms.
Cf. Symphony No. 4, last mvt.)
Rosencranz and Guilder ... , errr just Rosenkranz (Biber)
Partie (Vitalino) [Partita? Partire?]
L'anima partir (_muore_) (Mozart)
Piano Concerto No.24 in C minor (K 491) (Mozart)

Arnold Steinhardt (an LA guy) even played the chaconne at Maria Barbara's
grave.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6888973

<<<snip>>>
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Tom Poore
Cleveland Heights, OH
USA
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-23 23:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Looking over this thread, I wanted to respond to some statements with
which I take issue. Below are the statements followed by my responses.
"What is the Affekt?"
A better question would be "what are the affekts?" For example, surely mm.
85-88 don't exhibit the same affekt as mm. 185-188.
"By the way, I agree with you about the Bach chaconne being in
Sarabande rhythm - that's exactly what I was alluding to in a previous
post when I mentioned that I felt the piece was "something else" in
chaconne form."
"Personally, I don't regard this piece as simply a chaconne
- it's something else cast in chaconne form only at its
broadest level."
Formally, there's nothing unusual about Bach's Ciaccona. All the
variations (save one) are four measures long. The descending tetrachord on
which it's based can be distilled from every variation.
"A lamentation can approach the histrionic, but I feel Bach's
expression in this piece is largely a model of understatement and
acceptance. I cannot resist a piano opening and a pianis- simo ending
to the piece when I perform it. I sometimes play it piano throughout -
total acceptance, no histrionics."
This statement is refuted by the music itself. To play piano throughout
mm. 89-120 is to completely miss the obvious build up of tension. And how
can anyone hear mm. 241-248 as total acceptance?
"There can be no question that dynamic inflection is part and parcel
of this music (when peformed on isnstruments capable of it - they were
living people after all. But it's se- condary to the compostion itself
- dynamic inflection had not yet become a prominent _compostional_
element (with a few obvious exceptions)."
Again, this statement is refuted by the music itself. Changes in
dissonance, texture, tessitura, and rhythmic activity all imply dynamic
inflection. Dynamic inflection is no more secondary to a performance of
Bach's Ciaccona
True enough, IMO, but there was no such word as dynamic before the 19th
century, according to the OED, and it must have taken at least a week for
musicians to borrow the word from the science of mechanics. The word
for p and f was "expressions". You don't want to overreach here. daveA


than it is to a performance of Rodrigo's Invocacion y
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Danza. Further, dynamics are an obvious baroque compositional element. The
concerto grosso--pitting a small group of instruments against a larger
group--is one obvious example. Juxtaposing recitatives, solo arias, and
choruses within a cantata or opera is another.
"I did not, however, play it as a part of a "throw down" but rather as
a dance form with lots of nice variations .....kind of like 'Folias.'"
Strictly speaking, this is correct. Bach's Ciaccona is a dance with a lot
of variations. But this misses the larger picture. Bach's compositional
goal in the Ciaccona was to avoid the "one damn thing after another" feel
so common to theme and variation works.
For me half the fun is to string them together so that there is no point
where the character of a given voice changes, but instead each voice in
play gradually morphs into something quite else. It's never played that
way, but it is written that way, IMO. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Matanya Ophee
2007-01-21 20:17:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
seems to me
the only truly meanigful way to "discuss" interpretation.
I don't think so. Since there is no standard yardstick by which to
measure the recording, you will still run into individualistic
perceptions for or against any of the samples. So Tom Poore will
record and post 24 bars, convinced that his is the only way to do it,
and you will tell him that he is wrongheaded, does not understand
Bach, and he will come back and say that you are wrongheaded and do
not understand Bach. And we are back to square one--words about music.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-21 15:58:18 UTC
Permalink
There's a well-known quote from the Pesach Haggadah: "why is this night
different from all other nights?" Its purpose is to prompt an examination
of the Passover and its significance. It also, I think, suggests an
approach to a deeper understanding of Bach's Ciaconna.
While there's much to be gained by examining the historical context of
Bach's Ciaconna, the danger is that doing so creates the illusion that the
Ciaconna is merely a product of its time.
You're preaching to the choir here. I see a lot more in the writing now
than I did almost 50 years ago, and the most striking thing is the *humor*
in the middle section. I don't think there's any way to decide what the
exact "programme" was, whether an argument between a man and a woman
or a cat chasing a mouse, or something entirely else, but whatever it
is, it's *there* and affekt be damned. The fact that everyone understands
perfectly well to which part I am referring says it all.

I don't think the missing tie of the 'f' at the last cadence
in the Segovia Chaconne helps one iota. See the dot? The
"augmentation" dot is not augmentation, that is a misnomer. It is an
abbreviation for a note tied to a note of twice its value. Historically
and logically the dot represents a note and a tie. (Look it up. You will
find a wrong definition everywhere.) Bach put it in the measure following
the initial note in this case. Tie it.

The late Werner Icking (He is missed by the many people he helped with
typesetting projects all over the world. He was killed riding his bicycle
to work) typeset the Ciaconna long ago and it's a free download.

http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/bach/sonatas_and_partitas/bwv1004.pdf

There are many places where filling in chords and adding basses can be
good, IMO, but I don't trust anyone any more. I have found that there is
not much correlation between the abilities to arrange or write and
the ability to play in the aspect of note choice. Fingering is a
different issue entirely. :-) daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Tom F.
2007-01-19 06:16:16 UTC
Permalink
This is very interesting!

I really think the musical aspects of this piece can be brought out at
slower tempi. One need not be scared away by the 32nd notes.

I'm working this piece up now, from a comparison to other recordings, I
think I'll probably clock out at about 14-15 minutes. That certainly is
not "fast," and it allows the 32nd notes to be quite playable. (I was
never a speed demon... ;)

A quick glance at my collection says:
Segovia: 13:53
David Russell: 14.02
Frank Platino: 14:59
Nicola Hall: 13:58
Julian Bream: 15:48

Interesting that Segovia is the quickest and Bream is the slowest! I
wouldn't have guessed that offhand.

I have several other violin recordings and they reflect a similar range
of tempi.

(One violin recording I have is 14:06. It is available for free
download here:
http://www.yibinli.com/pages/music.htm
She's a friend of mine.)

So about 14 minutes seems to be the average here.

If Julian Bream can get away with almost 16 minutes, I think any of us
can, too. Actually, his tempi are not so consistent and he plays some
sections faster than others.

Anyway, I find no correlation to the speed and which performances I
like the most, which is my main point, I guess.

Tom
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-01-19 15:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom F.
This is very interesting!
I really think the musical aspects of this piece can be brought out at
slower tempi. One need not be scared away by the 32nd notes.
I'm working this piece up now, from a comparison to other recordings, I
think I'll probably clock out at about 14-15 minutes. That certainly is
not "fast," and it allows the 32nd notes to be quite playable. (I was
never a speed demon... ;)
A quick glance at my collection says: Segovia: 13:53
David Russell: 14.02
Frank Platino: 14:59
Nicola Hall: 13:58
Julian Bream: 15:48
Interesting that Segovia is the quickest and Bream is the slowest! I
wouldn't have guessed that offhand.
I never heard Bream play it, but he recorded it rather soon after learning
it compared to the others. IIRC he was still playing it on tour when he
had already recorded it. I understand that he played it faster later.
Segovia's previous recording was even faster, when he was younger. Also,
Segovia recorded *after* touring. He occasionally would add something
much less substantial as filler. For example, he learned
Mussorgski's(sp?) Castle in one sitting and recorded it the next day. He
had played the Chaconne for many many years before recording it. Taking
these things into account, I doubt that any of the differences you list
have even as slight a significance as you attribute to them.
Post by Tom F.
I have several other violin recordings and they reflect a similar range
of tempi.
Try it at 17, with a metronome, and see what you think. That computes to
90 eighths/min, close enough to 88, or about MM=44 beats. For myself,
I'll never go back. IMO one steady beat has a very unifying effect, and
it heightens one of the work's best features, which is the seamlessness
of its transitions.
Post by Tom F.
(One violin recording I have is 14:06. It is available for free
http://www.yibinli.com/pages/music.htm She's a friend of mine.)
So about 14 minutes seems to be the average here.
If Julian Bream can get away with almost 16 minutes, I think any of us
can, too. Actually, his tempi are not so consistent and he plays some
sections faster than others.
Exactly. I think the orchestral tempos are a better guide. It's
taking the sweet with the bitter. It's the $50 bill on the sidewalk:
Do I pick it up? The violin players have a lot to hide. You don't. You
can even play chords!
Post by Tom F.
Anyway, I find no correlation to the speed and which performances I like
the most, which is my main point, I guess.
May you get *past* that, to where the performance you like the most is
truly your own. Maybe that's a hard row. Maybe it's just a few
minutes, and as easy as falling down. Try it. Find out. :-) daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
You can play the cards you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Tom F.
2007-01-19 16:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Dave, thanks for your post.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Segovia's previous recording was even faster, when he was younger.
Really? I haven't heard that one.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Also,
Segovia recorded *after* touring. He occasionally would add something
much less substantial as filler. For example, he learned
Mussorgski's(sp?) Castle in one sitting and recorded it the next day. He
had played the Chaconne for many many years before recording it.
That's more in keeping with the norm for such a piece, I would think.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Taking
these things into account, I doubt that any of the differences you list
have even as slight a significance as you attribute to them.
Very true.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Exactly. I think the orchestral tempos are a better guide.
I'm not too familiar with those Ormandy recordings. He arranged
everything for Philly. Too romantic for my tastes, but he was great,
all the same.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
It's
Do I pick it up?
Sorry, I'm not following the analogy.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
The violin players have a lot to hide. You don't. You
can even play chords!
Yep. Of course, they have the sustain...
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
May you get *past* that, to where the performance you like the most is
truly your own.
Amen, brother. Amen.
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Maybe that's a hard row. Maybe it's just a few
minutes, and as easy as falling down. Try it. Find out.
You betcha.

BTW, I really like your Web site.
Tom
Steven Bornfeld
2007-01-19 17:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom F.
This is very interesting!
I really think the musical aspects of this piece can be brought out at
slower tempi. One need not be scared away by the 32nd notes.
I'm working this piece up now, from a comparison to other recordings, I
think I'll probably clock out at about 14-15 minutes. That certainly is
not "fast," and it allows the 32nd notes to be quite playable. (I was
never a speed demon... ;)
Segovia: 13:53
David Russell: 14.02
Frank Platino: 14:59
Nicola Hall: 13:58
Julian Bream: 15:48
Interesting that Segovia is the quickest and Bream is the slowest! I
wouldn't have guessed that offhand.
I have several other violin recordings and they reflect a similar range
of tempi.
(One violin recording I have is 14:06. It is available for free
http://www.yibinli.com/pages/music.htm
She's a friend of mine.)
Very nice. I'd say that even if she weren't a babe. Right, Johnny G?

Steve
Post by Tom F.
So about 14 minutes seems to be the average here.
If Julian Bream can get away with almost 16 minutes, I think any of us
can, too. Actually, his tempi are not so consistent and he plays some
sections faster than others.
Anyway, I find no correlation to the speed and which performances I
like the most, which is my main point, I guess.
Tom
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...