Discussion:
The best rh exercise?
(too old to reply)
Alcibiades
2007-10-14 02:15:27 UTC
Permalink
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Larry Deack
2007-10-14 02:31:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise
for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits?
Well... it's not the one you've been using on your own all these
years, that's for sure.
Alain Reiher
2007-10-14 03:12:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise
for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits?
For exercises ... Giuliani Opus 1 or Berg revisited version. (Just checked
and Wollybird beat me to the punch for this one!)
Now if you are speaking about a study ... it difficult to pin point one an
only study that would cover the entire spectrum of RH techniques. I have
found that Sor study # 2 (Segovia) is excellent for placement and balance of
RH.
M. Giluiani Opus 83 #1-excellent too for both hands and moreover, a good
exercise for memorization. if you want to go the virtuoso way ... Tarrega's
Estudio Brillante is excellent ... Sagreras El colibri too, Pujol el abejo
(P imi)...
Aguado has some excellent ones too ... # 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 from
his 25 pieces pour Guitare extraites de la methode pour guitare.

And

Napoleon Coste # 23.
Bach Prelude BWV 999 (Not a study but ...)
Brower # 6.

Left hand endurance + Slow arppegios ...

Llobet Romanza (1896)
Rodrigo Riera Preludio Criollo
Sor Opus 29 # 13 and # 17 (Segovia)
Barrios preludio en La mineur (beautiful piece).

Alain

There is more ...
Alcibiades
2007-10-14 04:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Friends, in my original message, I very consciously included three
words: "the," "single," and "best." This was meant as a triple
reinforcement of the fact that I'm asking not for a list of exercises,
each of which is among the best, but for that one exercise which is
the best - in your opinion, of course. Andrew understood this
perfectly. Please use his answer as a model of yours. Thanks.
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 13:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Friends, in my original message, I very consciously included three
words: "the," "single," and "best." This was meant as a triple
reinforcement of the fact that I'm asking not for a list of exercises,
each of which is among the best, but for that one exercise which is
the best - in your opinion,<
It gives me great pleasure and intense satisfaction to avail myself of
this opportunity to say ________________ _______________________
____________________ ______________________ _____________ ___________
________
___________________________________________ ________________________
_______________________________
Which explains why the above post didn't quite have the ring of
______________ . ____________________ _______ _________
_________________________ ________________________________________
sonority and vibrancy when___
______________________ ________________________________
__________________________ ________________ __
________________________________ _________________________________
_________________________________
presence, color, ravishing tone,__________ depth of timbre and
"snap". _______ . __________ otherwise dull, lifeless ameturish
plucking and gnashing of strings.

I hope this helps,

Che'
Tashi
2007-10-14 15:41:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Alcibiades
Friends, in my original message, I very consciously included three
words: "the," "single," and "best." This was meant as a triple
reinforcement of the fact that I'm asking not for a list of exercises,
each of which is among the best, but for that one exercise which is
the best - in your opinion,<
It gives me great pleasure and intense satisfaction to avail myself of
this opportunity to say ________________ _______________________
____________________ ______________________ _____________ ___________
________
___________________________________________ ________________________
_______________________________
Which explains why the above post didn't quite have the ring of
______________ . ____________________ _______ _________
_________________________ ________________________________________
sonority and vibrancy when___
______________________ ________________________________
__________________________ ________________ __
________________________________ _________________________________
_________________________________
presence, color, ravishing tone,__________ depth of timbre and
"snap". _______ . __________ otherwise dull, lifeless ameturish
plucking and gnashing of strings.
I hope this helps,
Che'
Well said Che!
MT
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-10-14 10:19:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise
for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits?
For exercises ... Giuliani Opus 1 or Berg revisited version. (Just
checked and Wollybird beat me to the punch for this one!)
Terrible choice.
Post by Alain Reiher
Now if you are speaking about a study ... it difficult to pin point
one an only study that would cover the entire spectrum of RH
techniques. I have found that Sor study # 2 (Segovia) is excellent for
placement and balance of RH.
M. Giluiani Opus 83 #1-excellent too for both hands and moreover, a good
exercise for memorization. if you want to go the virtuoso way ...
Tarrega's Estudio Brillante is excellent ... Sagreras El colibri too,
Pujol el abejo (P imi)
My "Broom" etude is much much more helpful than the Pujol. Shame on you
for not including it.
Post by Alain Reiher
Napoleon Coste # 23.
You should mention that one of the publishers moved the Tarantella to
the end, and in that edition it is #22. This one is without doubt
next to HVL #1. Early in his career, Segovia used to play it BTW.
Post by Alain Reiher
There is more ...
Needless to say, Jackson didn't understand that there was a
contradiction in his question, so he accuses you of not understanding
it, when instead you disagree with it. Surprise surprise. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Wollybird
2007-10-14 13:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise
for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits?
For exercises ... Giuliani Opus 1 or Berg revisited version. (Just
checked and Wollybird beat me to the punch for this one!)
Terrible choice.
I'll take that as a ringing endorsement.
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 13:53:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
My "Broom" etude is much much more helpful than the Pujol. Shame on you
for not including it.<
That's a sly trick...trying to get other people to dust your broom for
you.

Che'
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 15:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
You should mention that one of the publishers moved the Tarantella to
the end, and in that edition it is #22. This one is without doubt
next to HVL #1. Early in his career, Segovia used to play it BTW.
Yes, the Coste #22 is a great RH study, I'd probably say that's next
also. I say probably with both because I haven't spent more then a
moment while looking at this thread thinking about the choices, but V-
L #1 and Coste #22 do leap out as great choices.

Andrew
Matanya Ophee
2007-10-14 16:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Yes, the Coste #22 is a great RH study, I'd probably say that's next
also. I say probably with both because I haven't spent more then a
moment while looking at this thread thinking about the choices, but V-
L #1 and Coste #22 do leap out as great choices.
Without question, the best choice is Terry Gaschen's 720 RH formulas
for V-L # 1. Not published but I am sure Terry, who used to post here,
will be happy to share it with you. By the time you went through the
first couple of hundred of these, it will be time to go to bed.

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://matanya.livejournal.com
Larry Deack
2007-10-14 16:41:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Without question, the best choice is
Terry Gaschen's 720 RH formulas for V-L # 1.
720 - interesting number.
Matanya Ophee
2007-10-14 16:51:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Matanya Ophee
Without question, the best choice is
Terry Gaschen's 720 RH formulas for V-L # 1.
720 - interesting number.
I guess this is the limit imposed by the mathematics involving six
strings and four fingers.

Add one more string and one more finger and see how far this can go...


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://matanya.livejournal.com
Larry Deack
2007-10-14 18:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Larry Deack
720 - interesting number.
I guess this is the limit imposed
by the mathematics involving six
strings and four fingers.
Matanya, there are many ways to deal with combinations depending on
the constraints. 6 strings and 4 fingers are just such assumptions but
to further complicate this there are entire classes of fingerings that
must not be used to get to 720. 120 is just as arbitrary and both seem
to point to the fallacy of trying to "define" a set of combinations by
creating lists.

I have no idea why one would publish a set of combinations in the
first place since any mathematical set could easily be given as in this
thread with simple symbols and no need for a printed score.
Wollybird
2007-10-14 19:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Larry Deack
720 - interesting number.
I guess this is the limit imposed
by the mathematics involving six
strings and four fingers.
Matanya, there are many ways to deal with combinations depending on
the constraints. 6 strings and 4 fingers are just such assumptions but
to further complicate this there are entire classes of fingerings that
must not be used to get to 720. 120 is just as arbitrary and both seem
to point to the fallacy of trying to "define" a set of combinations by
creating lists.
I have no idea why one would publish a set of combinations in the
first place since any mathematical set could easily be given as in this
thread with simple symbols and no need for a printed score.
6!x4!
Larry Deack
2007-10-14 19:55:01 UTC
Permalink
6!x4!
Hey wollybuddy! You are as least playing in the right sand box but
the numbers still don't add up, do they?

It would be nice to get some idea of the constraints that CG
pedagogues use to limit the number of things one needs to study. Is it
120 or 720 or 12 "secret" steps? How do people come up with these silly
numbers?

If you continue down this path the number of hours spent to play ALL
combinations would be quite a bit more than most people seem to realize.
It adds up real fast when you apply it to scales, chords and other
patterns in music that can be transformed an almost infinite number of ways.

Anyway, it seems a waste of time to study much outside the music
itself unless you know exactly what you are trying to accomplish. I've
seen some very weird repetitious stuff people do and try to justify as
"rigor" when in fact they are just feeling their way along and not
really defining what "combinations" of fingerings makes sense to study.
You can't avoid the math here but perhaps it can be used to refine our
study of fingerings we need to play the music we love.
Wollybird
2007-10-14 22:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
6!x4!
Hey wollybuddy! You are as least playing in the right sand box but
the numbers still don't add up, do they?
It would be nice to get some idea of the constraints that CG
pedagogues use to limit the number of things one needs to study. Is it
120 or 720 or 12 "secret" steps? How do people come up with these silly
numbers?
If you continue down this path the number of hours spent to play ALL
combinations would be quite a bit more than most people seem to realize.
It adds up real fast when you apply it to scales, chords and other
patterns in music that can be transformed an almost infinite number of ways.
Anyway, it seems a waste of time to study much outside the music
itself unless you know exactly what you are trying to accomplish. I've
seen some very weird repetitious stuff people do and try to justify as
"rigor" when in fact they are just feeling their way along and not
really defining what "combinations" of fingerings makes sense to study.
You can't avoid the math here but perhaps it can be used to refine our
study of fingerings we need to play the music we love.
I'm not saying it's useful, but it is all the possible combinatons,
isn't it Dr Math?
Wollybird
2007-10-14 22:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wollybird
Post by Larry Deack
6!x4!
Hey wollybuddy! You are as least playing in the right sand box but
the numbers still don't add up, do they?
It would be nice to get some idea of the constraints that CG
pedagogues use to limit the number of things one needs to study. Is it
120 or 720 or 12 "secret" steps? How do people come up with these silly
numbers?
If you continue down this path the number of hours spent to play ALL
combinations would be quite a bit more than most people seem to realize.
It adds up real fast when you apply it to scales, chords and other
patterns in music that can be transformed an almost infinite number of ways.
Anyway, it seems a waste of time to study much outside the music
itself unless you know exactly what you are trying to accomplish. I've
seen some very weird repetitious stuff people do and try to justify as
"rigor" when in fact they are just feeling their way along and not
really defining what "combinations" of fingerings makes sense to study.
You can't avoid the math here but perhaps it can be used to refine our
study of fingerings we need to play the music we love.
I'm not saying it's useful, but it is all the possible combinatons,
isn't it Dr Math?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Assuming you don't use a right hand finger twice, that is.
Larry Deack
2007-10-14 23:22:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wollybird
Assuming you don't use a right hand finger twice, that is.
For what? The HVL pattern? If so then, no.
Matanya Ophee
2007-10-14 20:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Larry Deack
720 - interesting number.
I guess this is the limit imposed
by the mathematics involving six
strings and four fingers.
Matanya, there are many ways to deal with combinations depending on
the constraints.
I am sure there are. Terry had defined 720 of them. In a post in this
forum in 1999 (check the archives) he stated that he had more than a
thousand.
Post by Larry Deack
6 strings and 4 fingers are just such assumptions but
to further complicate this there are entire classes of fingerings that
must not be used to get to 720.
For instance?
Post by Larry Deack
120 is just as arbitrary and both seem
to point to the fallacy of trying to "define" a set of combinations by
creating lists.
Of course it is arbitrary but it was the personal choice of Mauro
Giuliani. In 1799, Federico Moretti made other choices and came up
with a set of 168 arpeggio patterns, and that using only p, m, and i.
Post by Larry Deack
I have no idea why one would publish a set of combinations in the
first place since any mathematical set could easily be given as in this
thread with simple symbols and no need for a printed score.
Which is exactly the reason I chose not to publish Terry's 14 page
Finale file when it was offered to me some years back. However, I also
dislike the idea of having music represented by numbers. Since the
allusion here is to HVL's Etude #1, which is known to all in standard
music notation, any suggestions to have alternative fingering
patterns, should be represented the same way the original is, in
standard music notation. While the figure of 720 alternative patterns
seems large, I am sure a smaller selection of patterns from this group
would be quite useful.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://matanya.livejournal.com
Larry Deack
2007-10-14 20:42:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Larry Deack
6 strings and 4 fingers are just such assumptions but
to further complicate this there are entire classes of fingerings that
must not be used to get to 720.
For instance?
What for instance? I'm saying that 720 is a VERY small subset of the
number of combinations of possible fingering if there are no
constraints. What are his constraints? Doe he allow ppppppppppppppp...
for instance?
Post by Matanya Ophee
Of course it is arbitrary but it was the personal choice of Mauro
Giuliani. In 1799, Federico Moretti made other choices and came up
with a set of 168 arpeggio patterns, and that using only p, m, and i.
What drives the choice of one "system" of fingerings over another?
Saying someone does all the combinations is not possible but clearly
defining why we choose a particular subset says a lot about how our
combination is organized and what we hope to learn from the work we put
into all those repetitions.
Post by Matanya Ophee
However, I also dislike the idea of having music represented by numbers.
But that is the best way to relate the RH patterns in HVL #1
(combinations of letters, not numbers, but the same math is behind
them). Looking at a score for every fingering is insanity.
Post by Matanya Ophee
While the figure of 720 alternative patterns
seems large, I am sure a smaller selection
of patterns from this group
would be quite useful.
Any selection of a large combinatorial group is useful since we
don't want to spend our lives doing repetitions without any purpose
other than to exhaustively try every pattern we can think of... which
would take a long time with doubtful benefits.
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 17:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
By the time you went through the
first couple of hundred of these, it will be time to go to bed.
Or to the acupuncturist!

Andrew
Lutemann
2007-10-14 21:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Andrew Schulman
Yes, the Coste #22 is a great RH study, I'd probably say that's next
also. I say probably with both because I haven't spent more then a
moment while looking at this thread thinking about the choices, but V-
L #1 and Coste #22 do leap out as great choices.
Without question, the best choice is Terry Gaschen's 720 RH formulas
for V-L # 1. Not published but I am sure Terry, who used to post here,
will be happy to share it with you. By the time you went through the
first couple of hundred of these, it will be time to go to bed.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794http://www.editionsorphee.comhttp://matanya.livejournal.com
This would be almost a complete waste of time. There really are only
a few rh combinations that are played on the guitar. You need to be
able to alternate, and then you need to be able to play certain
fingerings sympthetically (like a harpist would play a scale). I would
say that about 15 combinations would cover everything you will ever
do.
Stanley Yates
2007-10-15 13:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
This would be almost a complete waste of time. There really are only
a few rh combinations that are played on the guitar. You need to be
able to alternate, and then you need to be able to play certain
fingerings sympthetically (like a harpist would play a scale). I would
say that about 15 combinations would cover everything you will ever
do.
I agree Kent.

SY
Larry Deack
2007-10-15 14:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Lutemann
This would be almost a complete waste of time. There really are only
a few rh combinations that are played on the guitar. You need to be
able to alternate, and then you need to be able to play certain
fingerings sympthetically (like a harpist would play a scale). I would
say that about 15 combinations would cover everything you will ever
do.
I agree Kent.
SY
Well I hope others take note of your agreement since nobody else
seemed to respond to Kent. I agree but I'd love to direct this toward
WHICH patterns are the ones that would cover the majority of the music.

I've been teaching a four finger four string roll - pimami, but I
teach it in two parts pima and amip. Then they put them together. This
is almost exclusively a "monkey see monkey" do teaching technique since
the FEEL is what matters.

I often get students producing their very first "effect" on guitar
in one lesson. This "sympathetic" fingering opens the door to the idea
that virtually any RH combination can be broken into smaller units of
sympathetic motion.

BTW, I teach the pattern with the LH pattern of parallel E major
3rds on the 4 and 3 strings against the open 1st and 2nd string.
Alain Reiher
2007-10-15 14:59:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stanley Yates
Post by Lutemann
This would be almost a complete waste of time. There really are only
a few rh combinations that are played on the guitar. You need to be
able to alternate, and then you need to be able to play certain
fingerings sympthetically (like a harpist would play a scale). I would
say that about 15 combinations would cover everything you will ever
do.
I agree Kent.
SY
Well I hope others take note of your agreement since nobody else seemed
to respond to Kent. I agree but I'd love to direct this toward WHICH
patterns are the ones that would cover the majority of the music.
I've been teaching a four finger four string roll - pimami, but I teach
it in two parts pima and amip. Then they put them together. This is almost
exclusively a "monkey see monkey" do teaching technique since the FEEL is
what matters.
I often get students producing their very first "effect" on guitar in
one lesson. This "sympathetic" fingering opens the door to the idea that
virtually any RH combination can be broken into smaller units of
sympathetic motion.
BTW, I teach the pattern with the LH pattern of parallel E major 3rds
on the 4 and 3 strings against the open 1st and 2nd string.
If I am not mistaken those 15 combination can be found in Berg's book.

Alain
Larry Deack
2007-10-15 15:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
If I am not mistaken those 15 combination can be found in Berg's book.
Are you sure that those are THE 15?

I have doubt that there can be a consensus on what patterns are
basic but rather than refer to books we have to purchase why not just
list a few of the tops ones?

I think one goal of any RH pattern is to create a continuous rolling
effect so we can work with gradients of color, volume and tempo. HVL #1
does this as do many other patterns.
Alain Reiher
2007-10-16 02:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Alain Reiher
If I am not mistaken those 15 combination can be found in Berg's book.
Are you sure that those are THE 15?
I have doubt that there can be a consensus on what patterns are basic
but rather than refer to books we have to purchase why not just list a few
of the tops ones?
I think one goal of any RH pattern is to create a continuous rolling
effect so we can work with gradients of color, volume and tempo. HVL #1
does this as do many other patterns.
Well ... I think the basic patterns are not that difficult to be put
together. This is how they have been taught to me:

No thumb

1) [i] [m] [a]

2) [im] [ia] [ma] - [mi] [ai] [am]

3) [ima] [iam] [mia] [mai] [aim] [ami]

4) [imam] [mami] [amim]
[iama] [mima] [aimi]
[imia] [miai] [aiam]
[iaim] [maia] [amai]

With thumb

2 fingers 6 simple combinations:

[pi] [pm] [pa] reverse [ip] [mp] [ap]

3 fingers 6 simples combinations:

[pim] [pia] [pma] and [pmi] [pai] [pam]

4 fingers 6 simples combinations:

[pima] [piam] [pmia] [pmai] [paim] [pami]

And

[pimi] [pmim] [piai] [paia] [pmam] [pama]

And

[pimiaimi]

And

[pimami]

and its optional multiple permutations (which imho is tending to the
useless, meaning that what is above is good enough for basics)

p,i,m,a,m,i
p,i,m,a,i,m
p,i,m,i,a,m
p,i,m,i,m,a
p,i,a,m,i,m
p,i,a,i,m,i
p,m,i,a,m,i
p,m,i,a,i,m
p,m,i,m,a,i
p,m,i,m,i,a
p,m,a,i,m,i
p.m,i,a,m,a
p,m,i,m,a,m
p,a,i,m,i,m
p,a,i,m,a,m
p,a,i,a,m,a
p,a,i,m,i,m
p,a,i,m,a,i
p,a,m,i,m,i
p,a,m,i,m,a

For this one i'll strech my signature to: apaim!
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-10-18 12:41:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Alain Reiher
If I am not mistaken those 15 combination can be found in Berg's book.
Are you sure that those are THE 15?
I have doubt that there can be a consensus on what patterns are basic
but rather than refer to books we have to purchase why not just list
a few of the tops ones?
I think one goal of any RH pattern is to create a continuous rolling
effect so we can work with gradients of color, volume and tempo. HVL
#1 does this as do many other patterns.
Well ... I think the basic patterns are not that difficult to be put
No thumb
1) [i] [m] [a]
2) [im] [ia] [ma] - [mi] [ai] [am]
3) [ima] [iam] [mia] [mai] [aim] [ami]
4) [imam] [mami] [amim]
[iama] [mima] [aimi]
[imia] [miai] [aiam]
[iaim] [maia] [amai]
With thumb
[pi] [pm] [pa] reverse [ip] [mp] [ap]
[pim] [pia] [pma] and [pmi] [pai] [pam]
[pima] [piam] [pmia] [pmai] [paim] [pami]
And
[pimi] [pmim] [piai] [paia] [pmam] [pama]
And
[pimiaimi]
And
[pimami]
and its optional multiple permutations (which imho is tending to the
useless, meaning that what is above is good enough for basics)
p,i,m,a,m,i
p,i,m,a,i,m
p,i,m,i,a,m
p,i,m,i,m,a
p,i,a,m,i,m
p,i,a,i,m,i
p,m,i,a,m,i
p,m,i,a,i,m
p,m,i,m,a,i
p,m,i,m,i,a
p,m,a,i,m,i
p.m,i,a,m,a
p,m,i,m,a,m
p,a,i,m,i,m
p,a,i,m,a,m
p,a,i,a,m,a
p,a,i,m,i,m
p,a,i,m,a,i
p,a,m,i,m,i
p,a,m,i,m,a
For this one i'll strech my signature to: apaim!
You leave out the most important combination of all: repeated chords.
daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-10-15 15:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by Matanya Ophee
Post by Andrew Schulman
Yes, the Coste #22 is a great RH study, I'd probably say that's next
also. I say probably with both because I haven't spent more then a
moment while looking at this thread thinking about the choices, but
V- L #1 and Coste #22 do leap out as great choices.
Without question, the best choice is Terry Gaschen's 720 RH formulas
for V-L # 1. Not published but I am sure Terry, who used to post
here, will be happy to share it with you. By the time you went
through the first couple of hundred of these, it will be time to go
to bed.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
614-846-9794http://www.editionsorphee.comhttp://matanya.livejournal.com
Post by Lutemann
This would be almost a complete waste of time. There really are only
a few rh combinations that are played on the guitar. You need to be
able to alternate, and then you need to be able to play certain
fingerings sympthetically (like a harpist would play a scale). I would
say that about 15 combinations would cover everything you will ever
do.
And In DGT I cover all alternation and most of the arpeggio and chord
combinations, and require crossing. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-10-17 22:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
You should mention that one of the publishers moved the Tarantella to
the end, and in that edition it is #22. This one is without doubt
next to HVL #1. Early in his career, Segovia used to play it BTW.
Yes, the Coste #22 is a great RH study, I'd probably say that's next
also. I say probably with both because I haven't spent more then a
moment while looking at this thread thinking about the choices, but V-
L #1 and Coste #22 do leap out as great choices.
Andrew
One more: HVL etude #4. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
C***@gmail.com
2007-10-14 14:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise
for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits?
For exercises ... Giuliani Opus 1 or Berg revisited version. (Just checked
and Wollybird beat me to the punch for this one!)
Now if you are speaking about a study ... it difficult to pin point one an
only study that would cover the entire spectrum of RH techniques. I have
found that Sor study # 2 (Segovia) is excellent for placement and balance of
RH.
M. Giluiani Opus 83 #1-excellent too for both hands and moreover, a good
exercise for memorization. if you want to go the virtuoso way ... Tarrega's
Estudio Brillante is excellent ... Sagreras El colibri too, Pujol el abejo
(P imi)...
Aguado has some excellent ones too ... # 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 from
his 25 pieces pour Guitare extraites de la methode pour guitare.
And
Napoleon Coste # 23.
Bach Prelude BWV 999 (Not a study but ...)
Brower # 6.
Left hand endurance + Slow arppegios ...
Llobet Romanza (1896)
Rodrigo Riera Preludio Criollo
Sor Opus 29 # 13 and # 17 (Segovia)
Barrios preludio en La mineur (beautiful piece).
Alain
There is more ...
Good choices. I like the Giuliani 120 exercises and the Berg Revisited
version as well. But, when you have limited time, it's good to
condense things to their basics. And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.

For 4-note RH arpeggio patterns beginning with the thumb, and which
don't repeat a finger, there are these possible combinations:
1. PIMA
2. PIAM
3. PMIA
4. PMAI
5. PAIM
6. PAMI

tm
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 14:13:50 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 14, 7:05 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
...
Post by C***@gmail.com
Good choices. I like the Giuliani 120 exercises and the Berg Revisited
version as well. But, when you have limited time, it's good to
condense things to their basics. And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
For 4-note RH arpeggio patterns beginning with the thumb, and which
1. PIMA
2. PIAM
3. PMIA
4. PMAI
5. PAIM
6. PAMI
tm-
How pedestrian!
Larry Deack
2007-10-14 14:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@gmail.com
And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
Why does one need to do ALL the possibilities?
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 14:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by C***@gmail.com
And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
Why does one need to do ALL the possibilities?
Twinkle, is not the brightest star in the firmament.
C***@gmail.com
2007-10-14 15:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by C***@gmail.com
And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
Why does one need to do ALL the possibilities?
Good question. To be technically well-rounded, For evenness, and to
make sure there aren't any technical gaps in RH technique. But the
arpeggios themselves are just the beginning. After it becomes easy to
play each of them in any order, then practice accenting a particular
finger, for example:

#1:
Pima
pIma
piMa
pimA

tm
Alain Reiher
2007-10-14 16:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@gmail.com
Post by Larry Deack
Post by C***@gmail.com
And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
Why does one need to do ALL the possibilities?
Good question. To be technically well-rounded, For evenness, and to
make sure there aren't any technical gaps in RH technique. But the
arpeggios themselves are just the beginning. After it becomes easy to
play each of them in any order, then practice accenting a particular
Pima
pIma
piMa
pimA
tm
I used also to run through the six combinations withought interuption.

Alain
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 16:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by C***@gmail.com
And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
Why does one need to do ALL the possibilities?
Why not?

Andrew
Larry Deack
2007-10-14 16:39:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Why not?
You NEED to do all the combinations of RH fingerings? How many are
there? I'd love to know.
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 16:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by C***@gmail.com
And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
Why does one need to do ALL the possibilities?
Why not?<
Efficiency and productive time management during practice.
Andrew
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 17:31:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Larry Deack
Post by C***@gmail.com
And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
Why does one need to do ALL the possibilities?
Why not?<
Efficiency and productive time management during practice.
Yes, you wouldn't do everything in one practice session, but being
conversant with all of the possibilities is important to understanding
your strengths and weaknesses.

Andrew
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 17:44:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Larry Deack
Post by C***@gmail.com
And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
Why does one need to do ALL the possibilities?
Why not?<
Efficiency and productive time management during practice.
Yes, you wouldn't do everything in one practice session, but being
conversant with all of the possibilities is important to understanding
your strengths and weaknesses.
Andrew<
That's beyond the obvious, don't you think?
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 18:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Larry Deack
Why does one need to do ALL the possibilities?
Why not?<
Efficiency and productive time management during practice.
Yes, you wouldn't do everything in one practice session, but being
conversant with all of the possibilities is important to understanding
your strengths and weaknesses.
Andrew<
That's beyond the obvious, don't you think?
Then why do you suggest not doing all the possibilities?

Andrew
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 19:00:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Why not?<
Efficiency and productive time management during practice.
Yes, you wouldn't do everything in one practice session, but being
conversant with all of the possibilities is important to understanding
your strengths and weaknesses.
Andrew<
That's beyond the obvious, don't you think?
Then why do you suggest not doing all the possibilities?
Andrew
What are _ALL_ the possibilities? Have you seen the Barrios right hand
studies? In my case, after working through Francisco Mignone's
twelve etudes I no longer felt a need to do general right hand
studies. This is not to say I didn't write my own small studies that
dealt with my specific requirements.

It's sorta' like cooking. I'm not interested in ALL recipies and
possibilities but I'll leave no stone unturned in finding exactly what
I do want. I am rather careful with that word ALL.
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 19:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Larry Deack
2007-10-14 18:10:30 UTC
Permalink
but being conversant with
all of the possibilities
What are ALL the possibilities?
is important to understanding
your strengths and weaknesses.
I agree but I find this idea of playing a set of mathematical
combinations a bit annoying since nobody can define what the constraints
are so everybody comes up with a different set.

Whole classes of RH fingerings that are assumed in some cultures,
like drag fingering, are not included in most CG studies. Not that they
need to be but it is another example of a constraint that CGists seem to
assume when talking about RH combinations.
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 18:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
but being conversant with
all of the possibilities
What are ALL the possibilities?
That's a journey you take when you get involved with playing an
instrument.
Post by Larry Deack
is important to understanding
your strengths and weaknesses.
I agree but I find this idea of playing a set of mathematical
combinations a bit annoying since nobody can define what the constraints
are so everybody comes up with a different set.
I don't think of it at all as mathematical combinations but rather
physical combinations.
Post by Larry Deack
Whole classes of RH fingerings that are assumed in some cultures,
like drag fingering, are not included in most CG studies. Not that they
need to be but it is another example of a constraint that CGists seem to
assume when talking about RH combinations.
That's a good point, and exploring this, all these possibilities, is a
good idea if not absolutely necessary. What is necessary is to
develop a technique so you can accomplish what your musical goals
are. But pushing the envelope can open up new things that can make
your playing go to a higher level.

Andrew
Alain Reiher
2007-10-14 16:53:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by C***@gmail.com
And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
Why does one need to do ALL the possibilities?
Now ... That is a good question!
My Answer to it is ... diversity ... but to cover them all is practically
impossible. As tm mentioned, sometimes the basic is what one need to cover.

Alain
Larry Deack
2007-10-14 18:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Now ... That is a good question!
No, the good question is, "What are ALL the combinations?" Which
should lead to, "WHY am I doing this, again?"
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 18:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Post by Alain Reiher
Now ... That is a good question!
No, the good question is, "What are ALL the combinations?" Which
should lead to, "WHY am I doing this, again?"
Now THAT is a good question "why am I doing this?" Any time you can't
make a quick and pointed response is a good time to sit back and write
out exactly why. I don't believe in doing countless studies and all
that mindless rot. It's vastly more important to do thing extremely
well...it's quality not quantity that matters.

With V-L's Etude No. 1....Listen to Flavio Cucchi's interpretation
with a habanero rhythm or Joe Diorio's reharmonized version.
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 18:41:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
I don't believe in doing countless studies and all
that mindless rot. It's vastly more important to do thing extremely
well...it's quality not quantity that matters.
Very good point, I agree. In the process of examining all the
possibilities, at least those you can think of, winnowing out the weak
studies and exercises is very important. So many studies, so little
time!

Andrew
e***@yahoo.com
2007-10-14 15:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@gmail.com
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise
for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits?
For exercises ... Giuliani Opus 1 or Berg revisited version. (Just checked
and Wollybird beat me to the punch for this one!)
Now if you are speaking about a study ... it difficult to pin point one an
only study that would cover the entire spectrum of RH techniques. I have
found that Sor study # 2 (Segovia) is excellent for placement and balance of
RH.
M. Giluiani Opus 83 #1-excellent too for both hands and moreover, a good
exercise for memorization. if you want to go the virtuoso way ... Tarrega's
Estudio Brillante is excellent ... Sagreras El colibri too, Pujol el abejo
(P imi)...
Aguado has some excellent ones too ... # 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 from
his 25 pieces pour Guitare extraites de la methode pour guitare.
And
Napoleon Coste # 23.
Bach Prelude BWV 999 (Not a study but ...)
Brower # 6.
Left hand endurance + Slow arppegios ...
Llobet Romanza (1896)
Rodrigo Riera Preludio Criollo
Sor Opus 29 # 13 and # 17 (Segovia)
Barrios preludio en La mineur (beautiful piece).
Alain
There is more ...
Good choices. I like the Giuliani 120 exercises and the Berg Revisited
version as well. But, when you have limited time, it's good to
condense things to their basics. And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
For 4-note RH arpeggio patterns beginning with the thumb, and which
1. PIMA
2. PIAM
3. PMIA
4. PMAI
5. PAIM
6. PAMI
tm- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Carlevaro's RH Cuaderno book.
Alain Reiher
2007-10-14 16:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by C***@gmail.com
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise
for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits?
For exercises ... Giuliani Opus 1 or Berg revisited version. (Just checked
and Wollybird beat me to the punch for this one!)
Now if you are speaking about a study ... it difficult to pin point one an
only study that would cover the entire spectrum of RH techniques. I have
found that Sor study # 2 (Segovia) is excellent for placement and balance of
RH.
M. Giluiani Opus 83 #1-excellent too for both hands and moreover, a good
exercise for memorization. if you want to go the virtuoso way ... Tarrega's
Estudio Brillante is excellent ... Sagreras El colibri too, Pujol el abejo
(P imi)...
Aguado has some excellent ones too ... # 13, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 from
his 25 pieces pour Guitare extraites de la methode pour guitare.
And
Napoleon Coste # 23.
Bach Prelude BWV 999 (Not a study but ...)
Brower # 6.
Left hand endurance + Slow arppegios ...
Llobet Romanza (1896)
Rodrigo Riera Preludio Criollo
Sor Opus 29 # 13 and # 17 (Segovia)
Barrios preludio en La mineur (beautiful piece).
Alain
There is more ...
Good choices. I like the Giuliani 120 exercises and the Berg Revisited
version as well. But, when you have limited time, it's good to
condense things to their basics. And also, Giuliani doesn't cover all
the possibilities.
For 4-note RH arpeggio patterns beginning with the thumb, and which
1. PIMA
2. PIAM
3. PMIA
4. PMAI
5. PAIM
6. PAMI
tm- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Carlevaro's RH Cuaderno book.
Ha yes! I forgot this one! the infamous diminished chord with the 3 basses
open ... eh! maybe Jackson can substitute the Carlevaro diminished chord by
the V-L one and practice minimizing squeaks at the same time he discovers
the numerous RH pattern of Carlevaro.

Alain
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 17:32:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Carlevaro's RH Cuaderno book.
Glad you mentioned that, I cycled through that book daily for years,
and still use it periodically.

Andrew
Wollybird
2007-10-14 02:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
http://downloads.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=95694D
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 02:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Probably. Although to really exercise the RH at the optimum you would
need to do more than one exercise or etude. But if you were on a
desert island and only had the music for one RH exercise I'd choose V-
L E1.

Andrew
sycochkn
2007-10-14 07:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Anything you can do well is not a good exercise. Anything you can not do
well is a good exercise. After you can do it well a good exercise becomes
not so good. The answer is, it depends. I like variety.

Bob
Lare
2007-10-14 08:55:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
For the widest possible benefits, Estudio Brilliant -Tarrega.

If you want, you can work full-plants, sequential plants, or unprepared
strokes, ascending and descending. You can include rest strokes on the
melody.

It also requires superb control of dynamics, articulation and a host of
other r-hand techniques, including damping and skipped string arpeggios.
There is more to say about this piece but it is 3"53 in the morning and
after a late bass gig near Chicago.

LMc
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 15:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lare
For the widest possible benefits, Estudio Brilliant -Tarrega.
Also a great etude. So, to open this up a little, I'd say the best
etudes that I've played for RH (and of course the LH gets a good
workout too) are _probably_ V-L #1, Coste #22, and Tarrega - Estudio
Brilliante. Maybe also the Etude #16 Alphonse Cincotta .

Andrew
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-10-14 09:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
The question contains a contradiction. The "widest" possible benefits
for the RH is not the same as the widest possible benefits for your
playing, and the latter is what you want. This means that if you devote
too much time to #1, which is one of the best, you lose.

That means that DGT is the single best exercise for the RH. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Lutemann
2007-10-14 14:34:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Various crossing exercises on open strings making sure that you give
the fingers enough room to swing freely.
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 14:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Various crossing exercises on open strings making sure that you give
the fingers enough room to swing freely.
That's thoughtful and specific, but alas...no gold ring.
Let me give you a hint. What did Bream do an hour a day on open
strings?
What URL explains this comment?

Che'
Lutemann
2007-10-14 16:24:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Lutemann
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Various crossing exercises on open strings making sure that you give
the fingers enough room to swing freely.
That's thoughtful and specific, but alas...no gold ring.
Let me give you a hint. What did Bream do an hour a day on open
strings?
What URL explains this comment?
Che'
It's the same thing. You listen and you feel the fingers cross to the
next adjacent string keeping the tone consistent. You speed up and
you slow down. Also, you use different combinations. Three times on
each string, twice on each string, alternate three and two, etc.
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 17:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by Lutemann
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Various crossing exercises on open strings making sure that you give
the fingers enough room to swing freely.
That's thoughtful and specific, but alas...no gold ring.
Let me give you a hint. What did Bream do an hour a day on open
strings?
What URL explains this comment?
Che'
It's the same thing. You listen and you feel the fingers cross to the
next adjacent string keeping the tone consistent. You speed up and
you slow down. Also, you use different combinations. Three times on
each string, twice on each string, alternate three and two, etc<
Unless you know exactly what you're doing...in specifics it can be a
real time waster. More specific was Bream's point.
When Bream made an observation or pointed remark it was always dead on
point, Imo.
Tashi
2007-10-14 15:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lutemann
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Various crossing exercises on open strings making sure that you give
the fingers enough room to swing freely.
But, didn't "swing freely" culture die out in the 60's?
MT
Alain Reiher
2007-10-14 17:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Lutemann
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Various crossing exercises on open strings making sure that you give
the fingers enough room to swing freely.
But, didn't "swing freely" culture die out in the 60's?
MT
Now No one mentioned yet Kitharologus which have specific good right hand
Excercises.
Just have a look at the simple open string # 4 gives you 3 approaches to RH
tech.stroke.

Alain
Steve Freides
2007-10-14 18:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
If you enlighten us as to why you're asking this question, you might get
some more meaningful answers.

Personal Data Point: not too long after I'd learned to play the piano,
which I didn't start until college, I decided to tackle a particular
Brahms intermezzo, basically because it was a pieced we'd studied in
theory class and I had just fallen in love with it. Six months later, I
could play the thing, even though it was well above my level. In
retrospect, it did absolutely nothing to help me play better, and it may
well have even caused me to play worse overall because of the inevitable
technical compromises I had to make to play a piece I really had no
business playing.

If this "single best" piece is at an appropriate technical level for
you, it may help you for a while, but spending an inordinate amount of
time on one piece isn't the way to become a better player overall.

Just my opinion.

-S-
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 18:25:48 UTC
Permalink
I decided to tackle a particular Brahms intermezzo, basically because it was a pieced we'd
studied in theory class and I had just fallen in love with it.
Just curious about which Intermezzo, I love those pieces too.

Andrew
Steve Freides
2007-10-14 23:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
I decided to tackle a particular Brahms intermezzo, basically because
it was a pieced we'd
studied in theory class and I had just fallen in love with it.
Just curious about which Intermezzo, I love those pieces too.
In A-major, Opus 118, No. 2. It's in the Burkhardt (sp?) anthology we
used in the theory class I took at Temple University in Philadelphia 30
years ago. It's not fast, which is why I could play it at all. Here's
the first page:

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_inside.html?item=3151393&cart=101419454383&page=01
Post by Andrew Schulman
Andrew
-S-
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-15 00:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
In A-major, Opus 118, No. 2. It's in the Burkhardt (sp?) anthology we
used in the theory class I took at Temple University in Philadelphia 30
years ago. It's not fast, which is why I could play it at all. Here's
I thought so!! That may be my favorite piece of music ever. A few
years ago my wife and I had to deal with some very difficult
situations in both our families and that piece was our #1 solace.

Andrew
Steve Freides
2007-10-15 11:56:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Steve Freides
In A-major, Opus 118, No. 2. It's in the Burkhardt (sp?) anthology we
used in the theory class I took at Temple University in Philadelphia 30
years ago. It's not fast, which is why I could play it at all.
Here's
I thought so!! That may be my favorite piece of music ever. A few
years ago my wife and I had to deal with some very difficult
situations in both our families and that piece was our #1 solace.
A magical piece of music, that. I don't know if it's the slow tempo,
but it somehow manages to be "thick" in the way Brahms can be and still
be simple at the same time.

I haven't played through it in a long time - I will today.

Best.

-S-
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-15 18:24:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
A magical piece of music, that. I don't know if it's the slow tempo,
but it somehow manages to be "thick" in the way Brahms can be and still
be simple at the same time.
Have you read Jan Swafford's bio? Great book, one of the best about a
composer, or music for that matter, that I've ever read.
Post by Steve Freides
I haven't played through it in a long time - I will today.
I started doing an 8-string arrangement last year, got distracted, but
this reminds to go back to it. Not sure it will work, as you
mentioned it's a thick texture, but maybe.

Have fun today!

Andrew
Steve Freides
2007-10-15 22:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Steve Freides
A magical piece of music, that. I don't know if it's the slow tempo,
but it somehow manages to be "thick" in the way Brahms can be and still
be simple at the same time.
Have you read Jan Swafford's bio? Great book, one of the best about a
composer, or music for that matter, that I've ever read.
No, I don't really know much about Brahms - except that Heinrich Shenker
knew him a little, enough to have showed Brahms some of his
compositions. I will pick up a copy.
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Steve Freides
I haven't played through it in a long time - I will today.
I started doing an 8-string arrangement last year, got distracted, but
this reminds to go back to it. Not sure it will work, as you
mentioned it's a thick texture, but maybe.
Wow - that sounds like a tough nut to crack. In what key, and with what
guitar tuning?

-S-
Post by Andrew Schulman
Have fun today!
Andrew
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-16 03:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
No, I don't really know much about Brahms - except that Heinrich Shenker
knew him a little, enough to have showed Brahms some of his
compositions. I will pick up a copy.
Good, I hope you enjoy it!
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Andrew Schulman
I started doing an 8-string arrangement last year, got distracted, but
this reminds to go back to it. Not sure it will work, as you
mentioned it's a thick texture, but maybe.
Wow - that sounds like a tough nut to crack. In what key, and with what
guitar tuning?
Yes, very tricky but so far so good. I'm doing it in the original
key, A, and my tuning from the bass is: A-D-E-A-D-G-B-E

Andrew
Steve Freides
2007-10-16 22:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Steve Freides
No, I don't really know much about Brahms - except that Heinrich Shenker
knew him a little, enough to have showed Brahms some of his
compositions. I will pick up a copy.
Good, I hope you enjoy it!
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Andrew Schulman
I started doing an 8-string arrangement last year, got distracted, but
this reminds to go back to it. Not sure it will work, as you
mentioned it's a thick texture, but maybe.
Wow - that sounds like a tough nut to crack. In what key, and with what
guitar tuning?
Yes, very tricky but so far so good. I'm doing it in the original
key, A, and my tuning from the bass is: A-D-E-A-D-G-B-E
Sounds interesting, Andrew.

I ordered that Brahms bio on amazon.com today - had a couple of other
things I wanted to get from there and this one pushed me over the edge.
:)

Please remind me if you're still doing a regular brunch gig and
where/when. I'd like to come in with my wife sometime for that. Soccer
season is almost over and we might actually have some time on a weekend
again.

-S-
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-16 22:32:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
I ordered that Brahms bio on amazon.com today - had a couple of other
things I wanted to get from there and this one pushed me over the edge.
:)
Please remind me if you're still doing a regular brunch gig and
where/when. I'd like to come in with my wife sometime for that. Soccer
season is almost over and we might actually have some time on a weekend
again.
I started playing here:
http://tinyurl.com/29vjh4
last June, Wed-Thur-Fri's, 7-11PM. It's going very well. I may also
be starting another Sunday Brunch gig soon, I'll keep you posted.

I'm reading, cover to cover, The New Bach Reader right now. Christoph
Wolff has added a lot to the original version. I'd always consulted
the old one it but I'd never read it straight through before. I love
Bach's letters!

When I'm done I'm going to re-read the Brahms bio, I'm glad you
brought up Op. 118 #2.

Andrew
Steve Freides
2007-10-17 02:01:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Steve Freides
I ordered that Brahms bio on amazon.com today - had a couple of other
things I wanted to get from there and this one pushed me over the edge.
:)
Please remind me if you're still doing a regular brunch gig and
where/when. I'd like to come in with my wife sometime for that.
Soccer
season is almost over and we might actually have some time on a weekend
again.
http://tinyurl.com/29vjh4
last June, Wed-Thur-Fri's, 7-11PM. It's going very well. I may also
be starting another Sunday Brunch gig soon, I'll keep you posted.
I just did a quick check for room rates - $500 a night for a weekend
night was the least expensive - ouch!

If you start doing a brunch again, we'll try to get there.

-S-
Post by Andrew Schulman
I'm reading, cover to cover, The New Bach Reader right now. Christoph
Wolff has added a lot to the original version. I'd always consulted
the old one it but I'd never read it straight through before. I love
Bach's letters!
When I'm done I'm going to re-read the Brahms bio, I'm glad you
brought up Op. 118 #2.
Andrew
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-17 03:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
I just did a quick check for room rates - $500 a night for a weekend
night was the least expensive - ouch!
If you start doing a brunch again, we'll try to get there.
Yeah, I can't afford to stay at the places I play but at least I get
to eat for free!

I'll be in touch if the new Sunday gig comes through.

Thanks for asking,
Andrew
b***@attglobal.net
2007-10-14 19:30:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Segovia scales.

Jim
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 20:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@attglobal.net
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Segovia scales.
Jim
That thought ran through my mind. I dare say you're correct. Please
keep in mind, this NG as a whole doesn't like to practice scales. You
very seldom see good scale questions. In fact, if it doesn't relate
to scale velocities there are hardly any scale questions. I'm sure
you're speaking to liquid, pearly scales and Segovia's directives and
purposes in the development of both hands.

People want to argue the merits of this or that's guitarist scale
system. But what determines whether a scale system does or does not
have merit is our understanding of it's purposes. I described one of
those purposes last week. There are others but I want to see someone
else post them.

Che'
b***@attglobal.net
2007-10-14 20:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by b***@attglobal.net
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Segovia scales.
Jim
That thought ran through my mind. I dare say you're correct. Please
keep in mind, this NG as a whole doesn't like to practice scales. You
very seldom see good scale questions. In fact, if it doesn't relate
to scale velocities there are hardly any scale questions. I'm sure
you're speaking to liquid, pearly scales and Segovia's directives and
purposes in the development of both hands.
People want to argue the merits of this or that's guitarist scale
system. But what determines whether a scale system does or does not
have merit is our understanding of it's purposes. I described one of
those purposes last week. There are others but I want to see someone
else post them.
Che'
I know this kind of playing is out-of-style, but today I worked on pushing
and pulling on the semitone, playing a scale, c-major for example, as a
series of 4 single octave scales, that is c-to-c, c-to-c, c-to-c, and
c-to-c.

Jim
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 20:58:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
But what determines whether a scale system does or does not
have merit is our understanding of it's purposes. I described one of
those purposes last week. There are others but I want to see someone
else post them.
Interesting how the subject of scales gets such strong reactions for
and against. One of the violinists I work with told me a few years
ago, when I mentioned a disputatious thread about scales at one of the
guitar NG's, that the string teachers at Juilliard were about evenly
divided as to the efficacy of doing scale work.

I like scale work, and have worked out an approach combining scales,
trills (traditional & cross string), and speed bursts. Efficient, and
keeps things from getting boring from too much repetition of one
thing.

Yes, you get a lot out of scale work, unless you believe you don't get
a lot out of scale work.

Andrew
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 21:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by C***@hotmail.com
have merit is our understanding of it's purposes. I described one of
those purposes last week. There are others but I want to see someone
else post them.
Interesting how the subject of scales gets such strong reactions for
and against. One of the violinists I work with told me a few years
ago, when I mentioned a disputatious thread about scales at one of the
guitar NG's, that the string teachers at Juilliard were about evenly
divided as to the efficacy of doing scale work.
I like scale work, and have worked out an approach combining scales,
trills (traditional & cross string), and speed bursts. Efficient, and
keeps things from getting boring from too much repetition of one
thing.
Yes, you get a lot out of scale work, unless you believe you don't get
a lot out of scale work.
Andrew
Jyard is a little different story. By the time most string player's
reach Jyard they've been through scales. I found scales interesting
and useful. I seached the violin and piano's rep. for scales I could
use. I'd add bass notes to suit myself and sometimes make little
things...just to please myself. The entire trick is finding ways to
make the work fascinating to yourself, imo. A fertile imagination sure
helps by providing meaning to experience and understanding to
knowledge.
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-14 22:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
A fertile imagination sure
helps by providing meaning to experience and understanding to
knowledge.
Well said.

Andrew
Alcibiades
2007-10-14 21:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by b***@attglobal.net
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Segovia scales.
Jim
That thought ran through my mind. I dare say you're correct. Please
keep in mind, this NG as a whole doesn't like to practice scales. You
very seldom see good scale questions. In fact, if it doesn't relate
to scale velocities there are hardly any scale questions. I'm sure
you're speaking to liquid, pearly scales and Segovia's directives and
purposes in the development of both hands.
People want to argue the merits of this or that's guitarist scale
system. But what determines whether a scale system does or does not
have merit is our understanding of it's purposes. I described one of
those purposes last week. There are others but I want to see someone
else post them.
Che'
And are you of the opinion that the Brouwer/Paolini et al. scale
exercises compare favorably to Segovia's?
C***@hotmail.com
2007-10-14 22:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by b***@attglobal.net
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Segovia scales.
Jim
That thought ran through my mind. I dare say you're correct. Please
keep in mind, this NG as a whole doesn't like to practice scales. You
very seldom see good scale questions. In fact, if it doesn't relate
to scale velocities there are hardly any scale questions. I'm sure
you're speaking to liquid, pearly scales and Segovia's directives and
purposes in the development of both hands.
People want to argue the merits of this or that's guitarist scale
system. But what determines whether a scale system does or does not
have merit is our understanding of it's purposes. I described one of
those purposes last week. There are others but I want to see someone
else post them.
Che'
And are you of the opinion that the Brouwer/Paolini et al. scale
exercises compare favorably to Segovia's.
You can research the back pages and see my use of the term " the
paradox of scales". Most here had no idea what I refered to, but of
course you do now. The Segovia scales work very well for developing
both hands and shaping the framework of the left hand which is
critical for scales because it makes for consistent finger finger
placement with kinesthetic awareness which _tells us_ what to do to
improve them.

A very interesting little detail. In the original Columbia 24
Segovia Scale publication, in the foreword Segovia writes why and how
to practice the scales. Segovia also mentions the "holocaust of pure
work". That sentence has been removed in later editions. I think it
was an important detail.

The Brouwer/Paolini method details rythmics, forms and velocity. I
might mention what's called the "Presti scale technique" and Sila
Godoy's awesome three finger free-stroke scale technique, not
forgeting the flamenco picado or "stabings". After years of work most
people will arrive at their own style. Btw, in the Brouwer/Paolini
they mention lightness in velocity. I mentioned the week long daily
masterclass I took with Brouwer in the back pages... It required his
direction for me to really grasp what's in that method. If I hadn't
had those great teachers I'd still be muddling around flustrated and
lost. The trick is to add weight after lightness. In other words to
really have the "stuff" you need to absorb yourself in the work. The
drawback of course is becoming self-absorbed with your work.

Btw, a friend informs me Leo is in Cuba, very sick. He's about 69
now.

Countless students, of my generation, were misdirected by the Segovia
scales. In most cases it was because they didn't understand the
purpose of those scales, the strategies of the hands, and the
geography of the fretboard.
David Raleigh Arnold
2007-10-15 12:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by C***@hotmail.com
Post by b***@attglobal.net
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Segovia scales.
Jim
That thought ran through my mind. I dare say you're correct. Please
keep in mind, this NG as a whole doesn't like to practice scales. You
very seldom see good scale questions. In fact, if it doesn't relate
to scale velocities there are hardly any scale questions. I'm sure
you're speaking to liquid, pearly scales and Segovia's directives and
purposes in the development of both hands.
Mine are better than Segovia's in exactly the same way that Segovia's
are better than the rest. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html :::: You can play the cards
you're dealt, or improve your hand with DGT. Original easy guitar
solos, duets, exercises. http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
m***@yahoo.com
2007-10-14 23:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
There is no one best. I find very helpful the Richard Stover Classic
Arpeggio Book published by GSP. Stover recommends playing the entire
book through however I prefer to work on isolated areas, very helpful
indeed.

Michael
Jez
2007-10-16 18:51:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcibiades
What's the single best exercise for the rh, the one with the widest
possible benefits? VL #1?
Here's a tune with some interesting RH fingerings...
(Just started looking through the score today)



"Preludio" from Suite Antiga, (thanks to whoever posted the original link, I
couldn't find the thread it was posted in, but thanks anyway.)

Some have mentioned Tarregas 'Estudio Brilliante', another to consider might
be Barrios 'Estudio de Concierto No1'.

I regularly go through Tarregas Estudio in E maj, Estudio brilliante,
Estudio de Concierto Nos 1 & 2 then go through the 4 of them all over again,
quite fun.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.", Albert Einstein
Andrew Schulman
2007-10-17 03:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jez
Here's a tune with some interesting RH fingerings...
(Just started looking through the score today)
http://youtu.be/FJ5EdTXKRu8
"Preludio" from Suite Antiga, (thanks to whoever posted the original link, I
couldn't find the thread it was posted in, but thanks anyway.)
Yes, very good piece with nice harmonies and moving lines, people love
it.

Andrew
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