Discussion:
Fast and totally clean
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2cts
2019-10-20 21:08:28 UTC
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Great!
a***@yahoo.com
2019-10-24 14:04:21 UTC
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I’ll never understand why some guitarists refuse to trim the excess string ends. The guitar looks like it got a haircut with a weed whacker.

Tom Poore
South Euclid, OH
USA
Gerry
2019-10-24 22:41:57 UTC
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Post by a***@yahoo.com
I’ll never understand why some guitarists refuse to trim the excess
string ends. The guitar looks like it got a haircut with a weed whacker.
Agreed. They also add "jangle" to the instruments sound. I'm trying
to *avoid* unnecessary noise--hard enough.
b***@optimum.net
2019-10-25 00:34:39 UTC
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Post by a***@yahoo.com
I’ll never understand why some guitarists refuse to trim the excess string ends. The guitar looks like it got a haircut with a weed whacker.
Tom Poore
South Euclid, OH
USA
Agreed Tom,
And depending upon the guitar, they can affect sound, although I don't know if I would hear it.

But for the same reason, I'll never understand why so many guitarists clamp those bulky electronic tuners on their headstocks. In the first place, tuning is key-dependent. In the second, It most definitely affects tone. In the third, it looks ridiculous.
Gerry
2019-10-25 01:14:27 UTC
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Post by b***@optimum.net
Post by a***@yahoo.com
I’ll never understand why some guitarists refuse to trim the excess
string ends. The guitar looks like it got a haircut with a weed whacker.
Tom Poore
South Euclid, OH
USA
Agreed Tom,
And depending upon the guitar, they can affect sound, although I don't
know if I would hear it.
But for the same reason, I'll never understand why so many guitarists
clamp those bulky electronic tuners on their headstocks.
It makes tuning fast and accurate; seems easy enough to understand. Not
all are "bulky". My D'Addario is tiny.
Post by b***@optimum.net
In the first place, tuning is key-dependent.
Not on my guitar it isn't.
Post by b***@optimum.net
In the second, It most definitely affects tone.
No way it could be identified blind.
Post by b***@optimum.net
In the third, it looks ridiculous.
Everybody has their own aesthetics.
b***@optimum.net
2019-10-27 00:32:34 UTC
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Post by Gerry
Post by b***@optimum.net
In the first place, tuning is key-dependent.
Not on my guitar it isn't.
All due respect, but there is not a single fretted instrument ever with perfect intonation. It's just basic physics.

The closest I've seen any fretted guitars come are those which have been modified with a Buzz Feiten tuning system, and even then there is no one 'perfect' tuning for all keys. Feiten suggests using his exclusive electronic tuner only, but I get better results on those guitars making a I or V chord on the most noticeable area of the neck for the piece sound correct by ear.

It becomes most noticeable when pieces of a modern suite are in different keys, or when a program has pieces in varied keys. Try performing the Tansman.Cavatina - Sarabande having tuned with an electronic tuner, and without compensating for the key of B (the I or the V chord) at the 7th fret. If you can't hear that the intonation is off, then your ear is simply not doing its job.

I'd make a good guess that Williams and Bream tuned with electronic tuners (strobes at that) for their Duets albums (probably at the suggestion of the recording engineer), and they are out of tune with each other simply because of the different ares of the neck that each are playing on.

Having the ability to make minor adjustments by ear is CRITICAL to good musicianship, and any of the greats make those minor adjustments all the time.

On pianos, paired strings are tuned slightly off to hide the intonation problems, just as multiple reed instruments follow the same practice.

Non-fretted instrumentalists (and slide instrumentalists such as the trombone)make adjustments 'on the fly' all the time as part of their normal playing technique. In effect, their fingering becomes the 'moving fret', and they accomplish that through perfectly trained ears. A 'C' is not always a 'C' is not always a 'C'.

When recording violins, one may use 1 violin or 3, but never two for the same reason (as well as the idiosyncrasies of vibratos between players).

Further, there are psychological considerations which must be taken into account, all of which the most experienced recording engineers are acutely aware. Often, a saxophone tuned 'perfectly' with an electronic tuner will impress the listener as being harmonically flat.

In short, a well trained ear is the best tuner there is, and is a required skill for a professional guitarist. Teachers who allow their students ears to become too accustomed to(and dependent upon)the assigned frequencies programmed into an electronic tuner are not doing them any favors. One has to get acclimated to the phenomena, discrepancies, and nuances I've described above, and they don't even take into account the changes which occur as an instrument, performer, and room warm up.

best,
Bob
Gerry
2019-10-27 15:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@optimum.net
Post by Gerry
Post by b***@optimum.net
In the first place, tuning is key-dependent.
Not on my guitar it isn't.
All due respect, but there is not a single fretted instrument ever with
perfect intonation. It's just basic physics.
Absolutely true. So retuning it slightly differently for every key
(and position) I play in simply shifts the imperfections to different
areas and pitchs. On my guitar the imperfections needn't be chased
from key to key, as they offer enough minor inconsistency that they are
outside my hearing perceptions and the ability of my electronic tuners
to reflect. This is just the level of tolerance I pursue.

Your mileage varies.
Post by b***@optimum.net
The closest I've seen any fretted guitars come are those which have
been modified with a Buzz Feiten tuning system, and even then there is
no one 'perfect' tuning for all keys. Feiten suggests using his
exclusive electronic tuner only, but I get better results on those
guitars making a I or V chord on the most noticeable area of the neck
for the piece sound correct by ear.
It becomes most noticeable when pieces of a modern suite are in
different keys, or when a program has pieces in varied keys. Try
performing the Tansman.Cavatina - Sarabande having tuned with an
electronic tuner, and without compensating for the key of B (the I or
the V chord) at the 7th fret. If you can't hear that the intonation is
off, then your ear is simply not doing its job.
I'd make a good guess that Williams and Bream tuned with electronic
tuners (strobes at that) for their Duets albums (probably at the
suggestion of the recording engineer), and they are out of tune with
each other simply because of the different ares of the neck that each
are playing on.
Having the ability to make minor adjustments by ear is CRITICAL to good
musicianship, and any of the greats make those minor adjustments all
the time.
On pianos, paired strings are tuned slightly off to hide the intonation
problems, just as multiple reed instruments follow the same practice.
Non-fretted instrumentalists (and slide instrumentalists such as the
trombone)make adjustments 'on the fly' all the time as part of their
normal playing technique. In effect, their fingering becomes the
'moving fret', and they accomplish that through perfectly trained ears.
A 'C' is not always a 'C' is not always a 'C'.
When recording violins, one may use 1 violin or 3, but never two for
the same reason (as well as the idiosyncrasies of vibratos between
players).
Further, there are psychological considerations which must be taken
into account, all of which the most experienced recording engineers are
acutely aware. Often, a saxophone tuned 'perfectly' with an electronic
tuner will impress the listener as being harmonically flat.
In short, a well trained ear is the best tuner there is, and is a
required skill for a professional guitarist. Teachers who allow their
students ears to become too accustomed to(and dependent upon)the
assigned frequencies programmed into an electronic tuner are not doing
them any favors. One has to get acclimated to the phenomena,
discrepancies, and nuances I've described above, and they don't even
take into account the changes which occur as an instrument, performer,
and room warm up.
best,
Bob
Gerry
2019-10-27 18:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerry
Post by b***@optimum.net
Post by Gerry
Post by b***@optimum.net
In the first place, tuning is key-dependent.
Not on my guitar it isn't.
All due respect, but there is not a single fretted instrument ever with
perfect intonation. It's just basic physics.
Absolutely true. So retuning it slightly differently for every key
(and position) I play in simply shifts the imperfections to different
areas and pitchs. On my guitar the imperfections needn't be chased
from key to key, as they offer enough minor inconsistency that they are
outside my hearing perceptions and the ability of my electronic tuners
to reflect. This is just the level of tolerance I pursue.
Your mileage varies.
Incidentally, it occurs to me that intonation issues were *always* more
of a problem for my on nylon than on steel strings, which I have now
permanently migrated to.

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