Discussion:
Bach cello suite 1
(too old to reply)
Olof Johansson
2004-06-06 13:26:56 UTC
Permalink
In the "What did you practice last week" thread some time ago, it seemed
to me that a lot of people were playing Bach´s cello suite 1. I just had
to do it too! Prevoiusly I'd played the prelude in D and the courante in
C (fingered/arranged by Stanley Yates). The courante in C had had me
catched for some time, but I'd always played the prelude in D, so I'd
reached a point of decision : C or D for the whole suite? It seemed more
playable and giving more room for muscality and ornaments in C, but I
just couldn't resist the dropped 6th string i D. Now, I play the John W
Duarte arrangement in D which is great - maybe I should've played
Stanley Yates' or Richard F Sayage's arr, but anyways - there are a lot
of things to this music I'm working on, and I've only just begun...for
those who have the time and the inclination, I've got some questions:

1. The right hand fingering in the prelude, measure 20-21. I do it
piamiam-piamiam (measure 20, the last m is a slur) and pimamiam-pimamiam
(measure 21). That change in pattern is driving me crazy. Solution for
sanity?

2. Overall, there are a lot of places where a full barré can be placed
over the strings, but the need for the full barré really occurs later.
Take measure 3 in the allemande or measure 12 in the first menuet - is
it preferrable to place the full barré already at the first pulse, or
can it be considered good technique to move the barré up to the sixth
string when the low E is needed?

3. In the sarabande, the Duarte version has a lot of bass notes. Do you
play them all? I find I must really pay attention to make the top melody
stand out, and maybe the bass notes should be played a bit softly. I
don't have a recording of this (I think John williams recorded it) but
for those who do - what does it sound like? Help is very much appreciated!

4. Duarte has a small variation in fingering in the second menuet
(compare measure 1 and 2 with measure 5 and 6). He must have something
in mind - but what? I mean, if it were for tone color, one might just as
well do the first statement tastiero and the second ponticello to add
variation. I like the fingering better with less open strings, that is
to repeat the first fingering. But what can be accomplished by this
variation in fingering, how does it all become a "good thing"? I must be
missing something.

All technical and boring questions - but I'd sure like to discuss
dynamics and expression too! I found Stanley Yates' performance notes
very helpful, especially in determining the relative tempi of the pieces
in a suite. Too bad I don't play it in C ;-)

I've played this suite so much my left hand hurts like ****, figure it's
time for coffee now!

Olof
Alain Reiher
2004-06-06 17:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Olof Johansson
In the "What did you practice last week" thread some time ago, it seemed
to me that a lot of people were playing BachŽs cello suite 1. I just had
to do it too! Prevoiusly I'd played the prelude in D and the courante in
C (fingered/arranged by Stanley Yates). The courante in C had had me
catched for some time, but I'd always played the prelude in D, so I'd
reached a point of decision : C or D for the whole suite? It seemed more
playable and giving more room for muscality and ornaments in C, but I
just couldn't resist the dropped 6th string i D. Now, I play the John W
Duarte arrangement in D which is great - maybe I should've played
Stanley Yates' or Richard F Sayage's arr, but anyways - there are a lot
of things to this music I'm working on, and I've only just begun...for
1. The right hand fingering in the prelude, measure 20-21. I do it
piamiam-piamiam (measure 20, the last m is a slur) and pimamiam-pimamiam
(measure 21). That change in pattern is driving me crazy. Solution for
sanity?
2. Overall, there are a lot of places where a full barré can be placed
over the strings, but the need for the full barré really occurs later.
Take measure 3 in the allemande or measure 12 in the first menuet - is
it preferrable to place the full barré already at the first pulse, or
can it be considered good technique to move the barré up to the sixth
string when the low E is needed?
3. In the sarabande, the Duarte version has a lot of bass notes. Do you
play them all? I find I must really pay attention to make the top melody
stand out, and maybe the bass notes should be played a bit softly. I
don't have a recording of this (I think John williams recorded it) but
for those who do - what does it sound like? Help is very much appreciated!
4. Duarte has a small variation in fingering in the second menuet
(compare measure 1 and 2 with measure 5 and 6). He must have something
in mind - but what? I mean, if it were for tone color, one might just as
well do the first statement tastiero and the second ponticello to add
variation. I like the fingering better with less open strings, that is
to repeat the first fingering. But what can be accomplished by this
variation in fingering, how does it all become a "good thing"? I must be
missing something.
All technical and boring questions - but I'd sure like to discuss
dynamics and expression too! I found Stanley Yates' performance notes
very helpful, especially in determining the relative tempi of the pieces
in a suite. Too bad I don't play it in C ;-)
I've played this suite so much my left hand hurts like ****, figure it's
time for coffee now!
Olof
Hi Olof!

A V of V situation.
Well as it is important to define the LH fingering first to get a clear
idea ... mine is MM 20 [G# (1) E (3) B(0) C# (2) closing to the D with (4)]
and MM 21 G natural (1) E(3) A(4) B(0) C# (2) .
MM 20 RH is [PP ami ami] [PP ami ami]
MM 21 " " [ PP iam iam] [PP iam iam]

{:o)

Alain
Olof Johansson
2004-06-06 17:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Olof Johansson
In the "What did you practice last week" thread some time ago, it seemed
to me that a lot of people were playing Bach´s cello suite 1. I just had
to do it too! Prevoiusly I'd played the prelude in D and the courante in
C (fingered/arranged by Stanley Yates). The courante in C had had me
catched for some time, but I'd always played the prelude in D, so I'd
reached a point of decision : C or D for the whole suite? It seemed more
playable and giving more room for muscality and ornaments in C, but I
just couldn't resist the dropped 6th string i D. Now, I play the John W
Duarte arrangement in D which is great - maybe I should've played
Stanley Yates' or Richard F Sayage's arr, but anyways - there are a lot
of things to this music I'm working on, and I've only just begun...for
1. The right hand fingering in the prelude, measure 20-21. I do it
piamiam-piamiam (measure 20, the last m is a slur) and pimamiam-pimamiam
(measure 21). That change in pattern is driving me crazy. Solution for
sanity?
2. Overall, there are a lot of places where a full barré can be placed
over the strings, but the need for the full barré really occurs later.
Take measure 3 in the allemande or measure 12 in the first menuet - is
it preferrable to place the full barré already at the first pulse, or
can it be considered good technique to move the barré up to the sixth
string when the low E is needed?
3. In the sarabande, the Duarte version has a lot of bass notes. Do you
play them all? I find I must really pay attention to make the top melody
stand out, and maybe the bass notes should be played a bit softly. I
don't have a recording of this (I think John williams recorded it) but
for those who do - what does it sound like? Help is very much appreciated!
4. Duarte has a small variation in fingering in the second menuet
(compare measure 1 and 2 with measure 5 and 6). He must have something
in mind - but what? I mean, if it were for tone color, one might just as
well do the first statement tastiero and the second ponticello to add
variation. I like the fingering better with less open strings, that is
to repeat the first fingering. But what can be accomplished by this
variation in fingering, how does it all become a "good thing"? I must be
missing something.
All technical and boring questions - but I'd sure like to discuss
dynamics and expression too! I found Stanley Yates' performance notes
very helpful, especially in determining the relative tempi of the pieces
in a suite. Too bad I don't play it in C ;-)
I've played this suite so much my left hand hurts like ****, figure it's
time for coffee now!
Olof
Hi Olof!
A V of V situation.
Well as it is important to define the LH fingering first to get a clear
idea ... mine is MM 20 [G# (1) E (3) B(0) C# (2) closing to the D with (4)]
and MM 21 G natural (1) E(3) A(4) B(0) C# (2) .
MM 20 RH is [PP ami ami] [PP ami ami]
MM 21 " " [ PP iam iam] [PP iam iam]
{:o)
Alain
Beautiful! Keeps the fingers all in place! Thanks Alain! LH fingering
was the same as mine. Thing is, I've been playing a slur to the 2nd and
4th D:s in measure 20, that is,

here!
MM 20 [G# (1) E (3) B(0) C# (2) closing to the D with (4)]


which might be thrown out of the window (it isn't repeated in meas 21,
either). Whoosh there she goes.

V of V siuation? Didn't get that one, the finer expressions of the
english language always escapes me :-(

Olof
Olof Johansson
2004-06-06 20:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Olof Johansson
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Olof Johansson
In the "What did you practice last week" thread some time ago, it seemed
to me that a lot of people were playing Bach´s cello suite 1. I just had
to do it too! Prevoiusly I'd played the prelude in D and the courante in
C (fingered/arranged by Stanley Yates). The courante in C had had me
catched for some time, but I'd always played the prelude in D, so I'd
reached a point of decision : C or D for the whole suite? It seemed more
playable and giving more room for muscality and ornaments in C, but I
just couldn't resist the dropped 6th string i D. Now, I play the John W
Duarte arrangement in D which is great - maybe I should've played
Stanley Yates' or Richard F Sayage's arr, but anyways - there are a lot
of things to this music I'm working on, and I've only just begun...for
1. The right hand fingering in the prelude, measure 20-21. I do it
piamiam-piamiam (measure 20, the last m is a slur) and pimamiam-pimamiam
(measure 21). That change in pattern is driving me crazy. Solution for
sanity?
2. Overall, there are a lot of places where a full barré can be placed
over the strings, but the need for the full barré really occurs later.
Take measure 3 in the allemande or measure 12 in the first menuet - is
it preferrable to place the full barré already at the first pulse, or
can it be considered good technique to move the barré up to the sixth
string when the low E is needed?
3. In the sarabande, the Duarte version has a lot of bass notes. Do you
play them all? I find I must really pay attention to make the top melody
stand out, and maybe the bass notes should be played a bit softly. I
don't have a recording of this (I think John williams recorded it) but
for those who do - what does it sound like? Help is very much appreciated!
4. Duarte has a small variation in fingering in the second menuet
(compare measure 1 and 2 with measure 5 and 6). He must have something
in mind - but what? I mean, if it were for tone color, one might just as
well do the first statement tastiero and the second ponticello to add
variation. I like the fingering better with less open strings, that is
to repeat the first fingering. But what can be accomplished by this
variation in fingering, how does it all become a "good thing"? I must be
missing something.
All technical and boring questions - but I'd sure like to discuss
dynamics and expression too! I found Stanley Yates' performance notes
very helpful, especially in determining the relative tempi of the pieces
in a suite. Too bad I don't play it in C ;-)
I've played this suite so much my left hand hurts like ****, figure it's
time for coffee now!
Olof
Hi Olof!
A V of V situation.
Well as it is important to define the LH fingering first to get a clear
idea ... mine is MM 20 [G# (1) E (3) B(0) C# (2) closing to the D with (4)]
and MM 21 G natural (1) E(3) A(4) B(0) C# (2) .
MM 20 RH is [PP ami ami] [PP ami ami]
MM 21 " " [ PP iam iam] [PP iam iam]
{:o)
Alain
Beautiful! Keeps the fingers all in place! Thanks Alain! LH fingering
was the same as mine. Thing is, I've been playing a slur to the 2nd and
4th D:s in measure 20, that is,
here!
MM 20 [G# (1) E (3) B(0) C# (2) closing to the D with (4)]
which might be thrown out of the window (it isn't repeated in meas 21,
either). Whoosh there she goes.
V of V siuation? Didn't get that one, the finer expressions of the
english language always escapes me :-(
Olof
And so does apparantly the harmonic language - you must mean the
dominant of the dominant - E7!
Thanks Ag(l)ain!
Olof
Alain Reiher
2004-06-06 23:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Olof Johansson
Post by Olof Johansson
Beautiful! Keeps the fingers all in place! Thanks Alain! LH fingering
was the same as mine. Thing is, I've been playing a slur to the 2nd and
4th D:s in measure 20, that is,
here!
MM 20 [G# (1) E (3) B(0) C# (2) closing to the D with (4)]
which might be thrown out of the window (it isn't repeated in meas 21,
either). Whoosh there she goes.
V of V siuation? Didn't get that one, the finer expressions of the
english language always escapes me :-(
Olof
And so does apparantly the harmonic language - you must mean the
dominant of the dominant - E7!
Thanks Ag(l)ain!
Olof
The slur is OK there too! [;o)
Yup! E7 (first inversion!) moving to A7 (third inversion). I like the low D
version too.
Good choice. Have fun with it. I have learned the Allemande a long time ago
... I still have to learn the entire suite though! One day for sure! [I am
still not done yet, wrestling with the PFA [:o)

Alain
Sarn Dyer
2004-06-06 23:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Olof Johansson
Now, I play the John W
Duarte arrangement in D which is great - maybe I should've played
Stanley Yates' or Richard F Sayage's arr, but anyways - there are a lot
of things to this music I'm working on, and I've only just begun...for
I'm not yet familiar with Richard Sayage's arrangement, but, I agree
with you: perhaps you should! John Duarte's arrangements of the first
and third cello suites show very little understanding of Bach's
compositional style but, unfortunately, guitarists have become used to
them over time.

The octave alternation of the D is certainly seductive but it isn't
coherent with the treatment of the prelude as a whole and, not
surprisingly, I have never found a similar use in Bach's other works.

Sarn Dyer
Edward Bridge
2004-06-07 01:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Olof Johansson
It seemed more
playable and giving more room for muscality and ornaments in C,

So is this the reason why Yates has it in "C." Does Richard F Sayage's play
it in C .Why is it in "C" Are a lot of people playing in C now in days ?

I like playing the cello parts of the "Comparison score " in Yeat's book .
I have to use reading glasses because the cello parts are printed soooo
small.

Is there a book with just the cello parts with no fingering , no " IMO"
bass notes but in guitar friendly keys ? This would be a good book to
have and to sell .

Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com
Richard Yates
2004-06-07 04:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
Is there a book with just the cello parts with no fingering , no " IMO"
bass notes but in guitar friendly keys ? This would be a good book to
have and to sell . Ed Bridge
Such a score would be pretty easy to put together starting with MIDI files.
What movements and keys would you like to see?

Richard Yates
Scott Daughtrey
2004-06-07 04:16:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Edward Bridge
Is there a book with just the cello parts with no fingering , no " IMO"
bass notes but in guitar friendly keys ? This would be a good book to
have and to sell . Ed Bridge
Such a score would be pretty easy to put together starting with MIDI files.
What movements and keys would you like to see?
Richard Yates
http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/bach/cello_suites/
http://icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer/J.S.Bach.html

Scott
Richard Yates
2004-06-07 04:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Edward Bridge
Is there a book with just the cello parts with no fingering , no " IMO"
bass notes but in guitar friendly keys ? This would be a good book to
have and to sell . Ed Bridge
Such a score would be pretty easy to put together starting with MIDI files.
What movements and keys would you like to see?
For instance:

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Cello01prelude.pdf

RY
Richard Yates
2004-06-07 04:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Edward Bridge
Is there a book with just the cello parts with no fingering , no " IMO"
bass notes but in guitar friendly keys ? This would be a good book
to
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
Post by Edward Bridge
have and to sell . Ed Bridge
Such a score would be pretty easy to put together starting with MIDI
files.
Post by Richard Yates
What movements and keys would you like to see?
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Cello01prelude.pdf
and http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Cello01preludeDmajor.pdf

RY
Richard Yates
2004-06-07 12:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Here are four versions of the Allemande. Lots of possible keys.

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Cello01AllemandeC.pdf

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Cello01AllemandeD.pdf

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Cello01AllemandeE.pdf

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/Cello01AllemandeG.pdf

RY
Olof Johansson
2004-06-07 13:25:39 UTC
Permalink