Discussion:
sight reading
(too old to reply)
Jerry Willard
2013-09-26 14:31:46 UTC
Permalink
http://blog.chromatik.com/improve-sight-reading-skills/?utm_campaign=Blog:%20Sight%20Reading&utm_source=Facebook&utm_content=buffer15df4&utm_medium=facebook
Richard Yates
2013-09-26 18:16:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 07:31:46 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Willard
Post by Jerry Willard
http://blog.chromatik.com/improve-sight-reading-skills/?utm_campaign=Blog:%20Sight%20Reading&utm_source=Facebook&utm_content=buffer15df4&utm_medium=facebook
After using that to improve your skills, here is a sight-reading test
(place it on your stand about three feet away):

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/SightReadingTest.pdf
JMF
2013-09-27 07:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 07:31:46 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Willard
Post by Jerry Willard
http://blog.chromatik.com/improve-sight-reading-skills/?utm_campaign=Blog:%20Sight%20Reading&utm_source=Facebook&utm_content=buffer15df4&utm_medium=facebook
After using that to improve your skills, here is a sight-reading test
http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/SightReadingTest.pdf
Fantastic.
John Nguyen
2013-09-27 11:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Gosh, my eyes were so tired after reading this chart. There are no rests in any of the lines!!!!
Steve Freides
2013-09-27 18:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Willard
http://blog.chromatik.com/improve-sight-reading-skills/?utm_campaign=Blog:%20Sight%20Reading&utm_source=Facebook&utm_content=buffer15df4&utm_medium=facebook
All those suggestions seem obvious and self-evident to me, but then I
realized that's because I'm a good sight-reader.

When asked about how to improve their sight-reading, the first and often
only answer I give is: sing on the names of the notes. Sing, and
instead of words, use the names of the notes (which is what fixed-do
solfege is, but if you don't know that, the American alphabet names will
work just fine). This is the tried and true method of training
musicians at conversatories for generations - because it works. And it
doesn't hurt that it requires every musician to be able to sing in tune,
either.

-S-
Murdick
2013-09-28 12:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Jerry Willard
http://blog.chromatik.com/improve-sight-reading-skills/?utm_campaign=Blog:%20Sight%20Reading&utm_source=Facebook&utm_content=buffer15df4&utm_medium=facebook
All those suggestions seem obvious and self-evident to me, but then I
realized that's because I'm a good sight-reader.
When asked about how to improve their sight-reading, the first and often
only answer I give is: sing on the names of the notes. Sing, and
instead of words, use the names of the notes (which is what fixed-do
solfege is, but if you don't know that, the American alphabet names will
work just fine). This is the tried and true method of training
musicians at conversatories for generations - because it works. And it
doesn't hurt that it requires every musician to be able to sing in tune,
either.
-S-
Steve, does anyone have a stats on the success of this fixed Do system when started late? When I was in music school we used a fixed Do type system and nobody learned anything, although to be fair, few worked on it very much. A friend of mine gave me a sheet with a simple movable Do system and I got through the sight singing course easily.
Slogoin
2013-09-28 13:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Murdick
Steve, does anyone have a stats on the success of this fixed Do system when started late?
That's silly. Use it or lose it. Theory and ear training don't work unless you USE it. Use it every day and you just do it all the time. IMO, teachers who don't use it are missing a lot.
Steve Freides
2013-09-28 18:23:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Murdick
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Jerry Willard
http://blog.chromatik.com/improve-sight-reading-skills/?utm_campaign=Blog:%20Sight%20Reading&utm_source=Facebook&utm_content=buffer15df4&utm_medium=facebook
All those suggestions seem obvious and self-evident to me, but then I
realized that's because I'm a good sight-reader.
When asked about how to improve their sight-reading, the first and often
only answer I give is: sing on the names of the notes. Sing, and
instead of words, use the names of the notes (which is what fixed-do
solfege is, but if you don't know that, the American alphabet names will
work just fine). This is the tried and true method of training
musicians at conversatories for generations - because it works. And it
doesn't hurt that it requires every musician to be able to sing in tune,
either.
-S-
Steve, does anyone have a stats on the success of this fixed Do
system when started late? When I was in music school we used a fixed
Do type system and nobody learned anything, although to be fair, few
worked on it very much. A friend of mine gave me a sheet with a
simple movable Do system and I got through the sight singing course
easily.
1. It goes back to the French in the early 1900's. Here's a bit of
information I found.

http://www.fontainebleauschools.org/music/

This is where the tradition I'm a part of comes from, e.g., I know some
of my teachers studied there with Nadia Boulanger, mentioned in the link
above as director from 1949-1979.

This link http://www.fontainebleauschools.org/history/index.html

mentions it starting after the first World War and being staffed with
prominent faculty from 1921 onward.

2. Larry makes a fine point - if you didn't really work on the system
but just dabbled with it, it's not fair to expect that to yield results
for you or anyone. I worked very hard at all this, often practicing my
ear-training homework three times a day, seven days a week.

3. My abbreviated opinion on moveable Do: a greater means to a lesser
end. I don't doubt that it's helpful to many people, but it becomes
more and more useless as the tonal complexity of the music - key
changes, atonality, etc. -increases.

4. Last but not least, solfege is but one part of the system. A
college undergrad would typically have, each week, a 2-hour theory class
consisting of one hour of harmony and one hour of species counterpoint,
a 2-hour ear-training class consisting of an hour of dictation and a
half-hour each of speaking solfege in rhythm and singing solfege, plus a
piano class, plus a keyboard harmony class, and they're all designed to
work together to get a student moving in the right direction, plus
they'd sing in chorus (voice, piano, composition, theory, conducting
majors) or play in the orchestra (everyone else).

Some of these things were tough, e.g., every week, a new Bach Chorale to
play, written in 4-part open score and in clefs: soprano line in soprano
clef, alto line in alto clef, tenor line in tenor clef, and bass line in
bass clef. Morris and Ferguson score reading exercises that did things
like change clef every few bars, and often included familiar or at least
what you thought was predictably tonal music with things that sounded
like mistakes put in on purpose, just to make sure you were really
reading everything. Atonal sight-singing exercises from the book Modus
Novus (which is still available and still an excellent resource for
anyone want to work on their atonal sight-reading).

Working on all that, it was just assumed you could figure out how to
sing an augmented 4th correctly without needing to call it Do-Fi. Fixed
Do as I learned it was part of a process that pursued a much loftier
goal and you learned whatever moveable Do had to teach you along the way
by other means.

-S-
Murdick
2013-09-29 00:35:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Murdick
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Jerry Willard
http://blog.chromatik.com/improve-sight-reading-skills/?utm_campaign=Blog:%20Sight%20Reading&utm_source=Facebook&utm_content=buffer15df4&utm_medium=facebook
All those suggestions seem obvious and self-evident to me, but then I
realized that's because I'm a good sight-reader.
When asked about how to improve their sight-reading, the first and
often
only answer I give is: sing on the names of the notes. Sing, and
instead of words, use the names of the notes (which is what fixed-do
solfege is, but if you don't know that, the American alphabet names
will
work just fine). This is the tried and true method of training
musicians at conversatories for generations - because it works. And
it
doesn't hurt that it requires every musician to be able to sing in
tune,
either.
-S-
Steve, does anyone have a stats on the success of this fixed Do
system when started late? When I was in music school we used a fixed
Do type system and nobody learned anything, although to be fair, few
worked on it very much. A friend of mine gave me a sheet with a
simple movable Do system and I got through the sight singing course
easily.
1. It goes back to the French in the early 1900's. Here's a bit of
information I found.
http://www.fontainebleauschools.org/music/
This is where the tradition I'm a part of comes from, e.g., I know some
of my teachers studied there with Nadia Boulanger, mentioned in the link
above as director from 1949-1979.
This link http://www.fontainebleauschools.org/history/index.html
mentions it starting after the first World War and being staffed with
prominent faculty from 1921 onward.
2. Larry makes a fine point - if you didn't really work on the system
but just dabbled with it, it's not fair to expect that to yield results
for you or anyone. I worked very hard at all this, often practicing my
ear-training homework three times a day, seven days a week.
3. My abbreviated opinion on moveable Do: a greater means to a lesser
end. I don't doubt that it's helpful to many people, but it becomes
more and more useless as the tonal complexity of the music - key
changes, atonality, etc. -increases.
4. Last but not least, solfege is but one part of the system. A
college undergrad would typically have, each week, a 2-hour theory class
consisting of one hour of harmony and one hour of species counterpoint,
a 2-hour ear-training class consisting of an hour of dictation and a
half-hour each of speaking solfege in rhythm and singing solfege, plus a
piano class, plus a keyboard harmony class, and they're all designed to
work together to get a student moving in the right direction, plus
they'd sing in chorus (voice, piano, composition, theory, conducting
majors) or play in the orchestra (everyone else).
Some of these things were tough, e.g., every week, a new Bach Chorale to
play, written in 4-part open score and in clefs: soprano line in soprano
clef, alto line in alto clef, tenor line in tenor clef, and bass line in
bass clef. Morris and Ferguson score reading exercises that did things
like change clef every few bars, and often included familiar or at least
what you thought was predictably tonal music with things that sounded
like mistakes put in on purpose, just to make sure you were really
reading everything. Atonal sight-singing exercises from the book Modus
Novus (which is still available and still an excellent resource for
anyone want to work on their atonal sight-reading).
Working on all that, it was just assumed you could figure out how to
sing an augmented 4th correctly without needing to call it Do-Fi. Fixed
Do as I learned it was part of a process that pursued a much loftier
goal and you learned whatever moveable Do had to teach you along the way
by other means.
-S-
Jesus Steve, that sounds both grim and mind-numbing. How are supposed to take a full rage of classes and practice your instrument 3 to 4 hours a day and do whatever the fuck you did? Only one in a thousand could or would do that.

I agree that if you are a late starter,the ear training thing is like learning a 2nd instrument. I don't think it's worth it. Better to spend that time on performance.
Murdick
2013-09-29 00:40:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Murdick
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Murdick
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Jerry Willard
http://blog.chromatik.com/improve-sight-reading-skills/?utm_campaign=Blog:%20Sight%20Reading&utm_source=Facebook&utm_content=buffer15df4&utm_medium=facebook
All those suggestions seem obvious and self-evident to me, but then I
realized that's because I'm a good sight-reader.
When asked about how to improve their sight-reading, the first and
often
only answer I give is: sing on the names of the notes. Sing, and
instead of words, use the names of the notes (which is what fixed-do
solfege is, but if you don't know that, the American alphabet names
will
work just fine). This is the tried and true method of training
musicians at conversatories for generations - because it works. And
it
doesn't hurt that it requires every musician to be able to sing in
tune,
either.
-S-
Steve, does anyone have a stats on the success of this fixed Do
system when started late? When I was in music school we used a fixed
Do type system and nobody learned anything, although to be fair, few
worked on it very much. A friend of mine gave me a sheet with a
simple movable Do system and I got through the sight singing course
easily.
1. It goes back to the French in the early 1900's. Here's a bit of
information I found.
http://www.fontainebleauschools.org/music/
This is where the tradition I'm a part of comes from, e.g., I know some
of my teachers studied there with Nadia Boulanger, mentioned in the link
above as director from 1949-1979.
This link http://www.fontainebleauschools.org/history/index.html
mentions it starting after the first World War and being staffed with
prominent faculty from 1921 onward.
2. Larry makes a fine point - if you didn't really work on the system
but just dabbled with it, it's not fair to expect that to yield results
for you or anyone. I worked very hard at all this, often practicing my
ear-training homework three times a day, seven days a week.
3. My abbreviated opinion on moveable Do: a greater means to a lesser
end. I don't doubt that it's helpful to many people, but it becomes
more and more useless as the tonal complexity of the music - key
changes, atonality, etc. -increases.
4. Last but not least, solfege is but one part of the system. A
college undergrad would typically have, each week, a 2-hour theory class
consisting of one hour of harmony and one hour of species counterpoint,
a 2-hour ear-training class consisting of an hour of dictation and a
half-hour each of speaking solfege in rhythm and singing solfege, plus a
piano class, plus a keyboard harmony class, and they're all designed to
work together to get a student moving in the right direction, plus
they'd sing in chorus (voice, piano, composition, theory, conducting
majors) or play in the orchestra (everyone else).
Some of these things were tough, e.g., every week, a new Bach Chorale to
play, written in 4-part open score and in clefs: soprano line in soprano
clef, alto line in alto clef, tenor line in tenor clef, and bass line in
bass clef. Morris and Ferguson score reading exercises that did things
like change clef every few bars, and often included familiar or at least
what you thought was predictably tonal music with things that sounded
like mistakes put in on purpose, just to make sure you were really
reading everything. Atonal sight-singing exercises from the book Modus
Novus (which is still available and still an excellent resource for
anyone want to work on their atonal sight-reading).
Working on all that, it was just assumed you could figure out how to
sing an augmented 4th correctly without needing to call it Do-Fi. Fixed
Do as I learned it was part of a process that pursued a much loftier
goal and you learned whatever moveable Do had to teach you along the way
by other means.
-S-
Jesus Steve, that sounds both grim and mind-numbing. How are supposed to take a full rage of classes and practice your instrument 3 to 4 hours a day and do whatever the fuck you did? Only one in a thousand could or would do that.
I agree that if you are a late starter,the ear training thing is like learning a 2nd instrument. I don't think it's worth it. Better to spend that time on performance.
Let me amend that Steve, if this is you, you did waste your time. Sorry to be so rough, but I'm making a point. This is barely a freshman level performance, which BTW, is fine - everyone has to be somewhere on the spectrum. If this is not you, I retract my statement.
Murdick
2013-09-29 00:41:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Murdick
Post by Murdick
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Murdick
Post by Steve Freides
Post by Jerry Willard
http://blog.chromatik.com/improve-sight-reading-skills/?utm_campaign=Blog:%20Sight%20Reading&utm_source=Facebook&utm_content=buffer15df4&utm_medium=facebook
All those suggestions seem obvious and self-evident to me, but then I
realized that's because I'm a good sight-reader.
When asked about how to improve their sight-reading, the first and
often
only answer I give is: sing on the names of the notes. Sing, and
instead of words, use the names of the notes (which is what fixed-do
solfege is, but if you don't know that, the American alphabet names
will
work just fine). This is the tried and true method of training
musicians at conversatories for generations - because it works. And
it
doesn't hurt that it requires every musician to be able to sing in
tune,
either.
-S-
Steve, does anyone have a stats on the success of this fixed Do
system when started late? When I was in music school we used a fixed
Do type system and nobody learned anything, although to be fair, few
worked on it very much. A friend of mine gave me a sheet with a
simple movable Do system and I got through the sight singing course
easily.
1.