Discussion:
Bach and Weiss guitar
(too old to reply)
Tashi
2006-05-09 14:59:16 UTC
Permalink
Check this out ! the wave of the future?
http://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/sub13.htm

Michael Thames
David Raleigh Arnold
2006-05-09 15:33:51 UTC
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Post by Tashi
Check this out ! the wave of the future?
Nah, that would be the baroque vihuela. ;-) daveA
--
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Tashi
2006-05-09 16:37:49 UTC
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The baroque Vihuela only had 8 strings according to Wolfgang Delor at
the GNC, although there is some evidence the 13 string German vihuela
did exist, there is no concerte verification of this to date.
Speculation runs wild, amongst scholars. Recent evidence has come to
light suggesting Bach's so called E minor lute suite was written for
such an instrument. Dave please check your source's more thoroughly
next time!
Michael Thames
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 16:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Recent evidence has come to
light suggesting Bach's so called E minor lute suite was written for
such an instrument.
What evidence is that and where can it be read?

Robert
David Raleigh Arnold
2006-05-09 17:30:02 UTC
Permalink
The baroque Vihuela only had 8 strings according to Wolfgang Delor at the
GNC, although there is some evidence the 13 string German vihuela did
exist, there is no concerte verification of this to date. Speculation runs
wild, amongst scholars. Recent evidence has come to light suggesting
Bach's so called E minor lute suite was written for such an instrument.
Dave please check your source's more thoroughly next time!
Michael Thames
As soon as she gets back from the Renaissance theremin festival, I'll
check it out. Thanks! daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
Repertoire and/or licks are ammunition. Tech is a gun.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-09 16:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Check this out ! the wave of the future?
http://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/sub13.htm
Michael Thames
Robert Crim mentioned these a bit over a month ago, and there was some
good discussion.
Reference thread begun 3/29 header: "Well, if you insist......"

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 16:50:00 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 09 May 2006 16:32:00 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Tashi
Check this out ! the wave of the future?
http://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/sub13.htm
Michael Thames
Robert Crim mentioned these a bit over a month ago, and there was some
good discussion.
Reference thread begun 3/29 header: "Well, if you insist......"
Steve
At 7 grand a pop, I don't think this is the wave of the future for
guitar players that just want to dabble with the 13 course lute
music.....in tablature.

However, work progresses with the Hippner/Crim 13 string design. It
will be a 13 string version of the 11 stringer he built for me last
year. Biggest problem is getting the headstock short enough to fit
inside a Gator 12 string dreadnought case without shortening the scale
length or the number of frets to the body.

I'll keep you posted.

Robert
Tashi
2006-05-09 16:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Robert, this guitar is not for dabblers!
MT
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 17:07:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Robert, this guitar is not for dabblers!
MT
I understood the reason for building it was so guitarists in school
could try their hand at the 13 course "German galant" music without
having to go through the rigors of learning the big dminor lute.
That's a worthy objective, but those curious guitarists would still be
considered "dabblers" in the literature.

Having said that, it would be nice to try one of those out and compare
it to my 11 string on the same music. What are the chances you'll be
at the LSA lute camp this year?

Robert
Tashi
2006-05-09 17:47:22 UTC
Permalink
Robert,
I think unfortunately some how, the Dresden got pigeon holed into
the stigma of a student study guitar, or some such thing. Steve Aron
originally wanted me to make a lute for the the guitar department. I
said there is nothing that will turn someone off to baroque lute music
more than a guitarist actually playing a lute. So I came up with the
Dresden. Steve then started to think of the possibilities and then
wanted one as well. At the last minute Steve decided on a different
tuning and wanted an additional treble. This is a huge problem on a
650mm guitar, ( I had already made it ) one has to go down to about
610mm scale to have a large enough diameter ( .55mm carbon ) string to
give the guitar any punch. Baroque lutes usually start at 700mm and go
up to 760mm.

This last GFA I was able to hang with the master himself Bob Barto,
I mentioned my idea to him about a thirteen string guitar, which He
replied why don't they just play lute? I said no self respecting
guitarist is willing to give it all up, and cut off their nails. He
said that a thirteen string guitar would be much better than an 11
enabling one to play all of those beautiful b-minor sonatas in the
Dresden. Think the best Barto could say about the guitar was " every
guitar program should have one" as kind as he was to say that. Barto
BTW plays a 7 string 19th century guitar as well and has made a
recording of guitar duets, of that period.

Most lutenists are extremely hostile to the guitar, and after sending
some lute friends, the Dresden link they have not written me back! Ha
Ha! who cares.

So my hope id that someone will recognized the potential for an
actual career playing such an instrument. If Paul Galbrith can do it
on an 8 string how much more for thirteen?
MT
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-09 18:33:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Robert,
I think unfortunately some how, the Dresden got pigeon holed into
the stigma of a student study guitar, or some such thing. Steve Aron
originally wanted me to make a lute for the the guitar department. I
said there is nothing that will turn someone off to baroque lute music
more than a guitarist actually playing a lute. So I came up with the
Dresden. Steve then started to think of the possibilities and then
wanted one as well. At the last minute Steve decided on a different
tuning and wanted an additional treble. This is a huge problem on a
650mm guitar, ( I had already made it ) one has to go down to about
610mm scale to have a large enough diameter ( .55mm carbon ) string to
give the guitar any punch. Baroque lutes usually start at 700mm and go
up to 760mm.
This last GFA I was able to hang with the master himself Bob Barto,
I mentioned my idea to him about a thirteen string guitar, which He
replied why don't they just play lute? I said no self respecting
guitarist is willing to give it all up, and cut off their nails. He
said that a thirteen string guitar would be much better than an 11
enabling one to play all of those beautiful b-minor sonatas in the
Dresden. Think the best Barto could say about the guitar was " every
guitar program should have one" as kind as he was to say that. Barto
BTW plays a 7 string 19th century guitar as well and has made a
recording of guitar duets, of that period.
Most lutenists are extremely hostile to the guitar,
Am I correct in assuming you meant that they are hostile to the idea of
playing lute music on guitar? Or do they really feel like this?

Loading Image...

Steve


and after sending
Post by Tashi
some lute friends, the Dresden link they have not written me back! Ha
Ha! who cares.
So my hope id that someone will recognized the potential for an
actual career playing such an instrument. If Paul Galbrith can do it
on an 8 string how much more for thirteen?
MT
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Tashi
2006-05-09 21:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Am I correct in assuming you meant that they are hostile to the idea of
playing lute music on guitar? Or do they really feel like this?
I'm sure they feel like the photo at times. But here is a recent
thread about the guitar on the lute list, written by the Grand Dragon
himself.... You tell me if their hostile or not!
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
But, If a guitarist wants to play Bach or Weiss, he or she shouldn't be
discouraged.
I think they should be, by any means possible.
Moreover shey should sign an affidavit by which they'd promise not to
come
within a 100 yard radius of any pre-1800's music. They can do Carculli,

Targuado etc.- that's would be between consenting adults.
And they should be given mandatory therapy to get them off that G-thing

entirely. And don't tell me that G-thing is genetic. It ain't.
RT
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-09 21:29:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Am I correct in assuming you meant that they are hostile to the
idea of
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
playing lute music on guitar? Or do they really feel like this?
I'm sure they feel like the photo at times. But here is a recent
thread about the guitar on the lute list, written by the Grand Dragon
himself.... You tell me if their hostile or not!
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
But, If a guitarist wants to play Bach or Weiss, he or she shouldn't be
discouraged.
I think they should be, by any means possible.
Moreover shey should sign an affidavit by which they'd promise not to
come
within a 100 yard radius of any pre-1800's music. They can do Carculli,
Targuado etc.- that's would be between consenting adults.
And they should be given mandatory therapy to get them off that G-thing
entirely. And don't tell me that G-thing is genetic. It ain't.
RT
Don't be coy--who's the dragon, Roman?

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Tashi
2006-05-09 22:09:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Don't be coy--who's the dragon, Roman?
It is..... his statements are rather hilarious when you throw in what
Robert Barto told me in the up coming interveiw it did with him for
Soundboard.

Barto said...
I think it's important that guitarists realize this and not necessarily
look
to lute performances for guidance in their interpretation of Bach.
(Weiss is
an entirely different matter, so please do.) Personally, I would just
as
soon hear Bach on the guitar.

MT
Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-09 23:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Don't be coy--who's the dragon, Roman?
It is..... his statements are rather hilarious when you throw in what
Robert Barto told me in the up coming interveiw it did with him for
Soundboard.
Barto said...
I think it's important that guitarists realize this and not necessarily
look
to lute performances for guidance in their interpretation of Bach.
(Weiss is
an entirely different matter, so please do.) Personally, I would just
as
soon hear Bach on the guitar.
MT
I'm no purist; Lord knows, RT has ruffled some feathers over the
years--here too. Still, I'd bet he's not the ogre he sometimes seems on
the web.

Steve
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 18:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Robert,
I think unfortunately some how, the Dresden got pigeon holed into
the stigma of a student study guitar, or some such thing. Steve Aron
originally wanted me to make a lute for the the guitar department. I
said there is nothing that will turn someone off to baroque lute music
more than a guitarist actually playing a lute. So I came up with the
Dresden. Steve then started to think of the possibilities and then
wanted one as well. At the last minute Steve decided on a different
tuning and wanted an additional treble. This is a huge problem on a
650mm guitar, ( I had already made it ) one has to go down to about
610mm scale to have a large enough diameter ( .55mm carbon ) string to
give the guitar any punch. Baroque lutes usually start at 700mm and go
up to 760mm.
This last GFA I was able to hang with the master himself Bob Barto,
I mentioned my idea to him about a thirteen string guitar, which He
replied why don't they just play lute? I said no self respecting
guitarist is willing to give it all up, and cut off their nails. He
said that a thirteen string guitar would be much better than an 11
enabling one to play all of those beautiful b-minor sonatas in the
Dresden. Think the best Barto could say about the guitar was " every
guitar program should have one" as kind as he was to say that. Barto
BTW plays a 7 string 19th century guitar as well and has made a
recording of guitar duets, of that period.
Most lutenists are extremely hostile to the guitar, and after sending
some lute friends, the Dresden link they have not written me back! Ha
Ha! who cares.
So my hope id that someone will recognized the potential for an
actual career playing such an instrument. If Paul Galbrith can do it
on an 8 string how much more for thirteen?
MT
Thank you for the story behind the "Dresden." I can understand
Robert's reaction to your idea. He can be quite direct. I have the
same reaction, but alas, as I cannot play the big lute anymore, I find
the idea attractive.....or at least more attractive than nothing at
all. Hence my interest in the 11 stringer.

It was originally intended for the ten course lute literature (Vallet,
Ballard, Galilei, etc.) I added the extra string "just in case." The
folks at Aquila strings worked up a d minor set for me that works very
well. I think they will be able to come up with a set of 13 as well.

I don't think lute players are "hostile" to guitar. Most were guitar
players first, after all. They were just seduced by the likes of
Dowland and Weiss over Torroba and Tarrega. Me too.

I don't see any one blossoming with a career the 13 string dmin tuned
guitar playing the standard baroque lute material. There are too many
of the real things out there, IMO......and the Liuto Forte even looks
like a lute http://www.liuto-forte.com/english/index.htm .

However, if you happen to have an extra "Dresden" laying around that
needs to be test driven, send it along. I'd love to try one.

Robert