Discussion:
Bach and Weiss guitar
(too old to reply)
Tashi
2006-05-09 14:59:16 UTC
Permalink
Check this out ! the wave of the future?
http://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/sub13.htm

Michael Thames
David Raleigh Arnold
2006-05-09 15:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Check this out ! the wave of the future?
Nah, that would be the baroque vihuela. ;-) daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
Repertoire and/or licks are ammunition. Tech is a gun.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Tashi
2006-05-09 16:37:49 UTC
Permalink
The baroque Vihuela only had 8 strings according to Wolfgang Delor at
the GNC, although there is some evidence the 13 string German vihuela
did exist, there is no concerte verification of this to date.
Speculation runs wild, amongst scholars. Recent evidence has come to
light suggesting Bach's so called E minor lute suite was written for
such an instrument. Dave please check your source's more thoroughly
next time!
Michael Thames
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 16:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Recent evidence has come to
light suggesting Bach's so called E minor lute suite was written for
such an instrument.
What evidence is that and where can it be read?

Robert
David Raleigh Arnold
2006-05-09 17:30:02 UTC
Permalink
The baroque Vihuela only had 8 strings according to Wolfgang Delor at the
GNC, although there is some evidence the 13 string German vihuela did
exist, there is no concerte verification of this to date. Speculation runs
wild, amongst scholars. Recent evidence has come to light suggesting
Bach's so called E minor lute suite was written for such an instrument.
Dave please check your source's more thoroughly next time!
Michael Thames
As soon as she gets back from the Renaissance theremin festival, I'll
check it out. Thanks! daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
Repertoire and/or licks are ammunition. Tech is a gun.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-09 16:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Check this out ! the wave of the future?
http://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/sub13.htm
Michael Thames
Robert Crim mentioned these a bit over a month ago, and there was some
good discussion.
Reference thread begun 3/29 header: "Well, if you insist......"

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 16:50:00 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 09 May 2006 16:32:00 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Tashi
Check this out ! the wave of the future?
http://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/sub13.htm
Michael Thames
Robert Crim mentioned these a bit over a month ago, and there was some
good discussion.
Reference thread begun 3/29 header: "Well, if you insist......"
Steve
At 7 grand a pop, I don't think this is the wave of the future for
guitar players that just want to dabble with the 13 course lute
music.....in tablature.

However, work progresses with the Hippner/Crim 13 string design. It
will be a 13 string version of the 11 stringer he built for me last
year. Biggest problem is getting the headstock short enough to fit
inside a Gator 12 string dreadnought case without shortening the scale
length or the number of frets to the body.

I'll keep you posted.

Robert
Tashi
2006-05-09 16:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Robert, this guitar is not for dabblers!
MT
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 17:07:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Robert, this guitar is not for dabblers!
MT
I understood the reason for building it was so guitarists in school
could try their hand at the 13 course "German galant" music without
having to go through the rigors of learning the big dminor lute.
That's a worthy objective, but those curious guitarists would still be
considered "dabblers" in the literature.

Having said that, it would be nice to try one of those out and compare
it to my 11 string on the same music. What are the chances you'll be
at the LSA lute camp this year?

Robert
Tashi
2006-05-09 17:47:22 UTC
Permalink
Robert,
I think unfortunately some how, the Dresden got pigeon holed into
the stigma of a student study guitar, or some such thing. Steve Aron
originally wanted me to make a lute for the the guitar department. I
said there is nothing that will turn someone off to baroque lute music
more than a guitarist actually playing a lute. So I came up with the
Dresden. Steve then started to think of the possibilities and then
wanted one as well. At the last minute Steve decided on a different
tuning and wanted an additional treble. This is a huge problem on a
650mm guitar, ( I had already made it ) one has to go down to about
610mm scale to have a large enough diameter ( .55mm carbon ) string to
give the guitar any punch. Baroque lutes usually start at 700mm and go
up to 760mm.

This last GFA I was able to hang with the master himself Bob Barto,
I mentioned my idea to him about a thirteen string guitar, which He
replied why don't they just play lute? I said no self respecting
guitarist is willing to give it all up, and cut off their nails. He
said that a thirteen string guitar would be much better than an 11
enabling one to play all of those beautiful b-minor sonatas in the
Dresden. Think the best Barto could say about the guitar was " every
guitar program should have one" as kind as he was to say that. Barto
BTW plays a 7 string 19th century guitar as well and has made a
recording of guitar duets, of that period.

Most lutenists are extremely hostile to the guitar, and after sending
some lute friends, the Dresden link they have not written me back! Ha
Ha! who cares.

So my hope id that someone will recognized the potential for an
actual career playing such an instrument. If Paul Galbrith can do it
on an 8 string how much more for thirteen?
MT
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-09 18:33:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Robert,
I think unfortunately some how, the Dresden got pigeon holed into
the stigma of a student study guitar, or some such thing. Steve Aron
originally wanted me to make a lute for the the guitar department. I
said there is nothing that will turn someone off to baroque lute music
more than a guitarist actually playing a lute. So I came up with the
Dresden. Steve then started to think of the possibilities and then
wanted one as well. At the last minute Steve decided on a different
tuning and wanted an additional treble. This is a huge problem on a
650mm guitar, ( I had already made it ) one has to go down to about
610mm scale to have a large enough diameter ( .55mm carbon ) string to
give the guitar any punch. Baroque lutes usually start at 700mm and go
up to 760mm.
This last GFA I was able to hang with the master himself Bob Barto,
I mentioned my idea to him about a thirteen string guitar, which He
replied why don't they just play lute? I said no self respecting
guitarist is willing to give it all up, and cut off their nails. He
said that a thirteen string guitar would be much better than an 11
enabling one to play all of those beautiful b-minor sonatas in the
Dresden. Think the best Barto could say about the guitar was " every
guitar program should have one" as kind as he was to say that. Barto
BTW plays a 7 string 19th century guitar as well and has made a
recording of guitar duets, of that period.
Most lutenists are extremely hostile to the guitar,
Am I correct in assuming you meant that they are hostile to the idea of
playing lute music on guitar? Or do they really feel like this?

Loading Image...

Steve


and after sending
Post by Tashi
some lute friends, the Dresden link they have not written me back! Ha
Ha! who cares.
So my hope id that someone will recognized the potential for an
actual career playing such an instrument. If Paul Galbrith can do it
on an 8 string how much more for thirteen?
MT
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Tashi
2006-05-09 21:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Am I correct in assuming you meant that they are hostile to the idea of
playing lute music on guitar? Or do they really feel like this?
I'm sure they feel like the photo at times. But here is a recent
thread about the guitar on the lute list, written by the Grand Dragon
himself.... You tell me if their hostile or not!
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
But, If a guitarist wants to play Bach or Weiss, he or she shouldn't be
discouraged.
I think they should be, by any means possible.
Moreover shey should sign an affidavit by which they'd promise not to
come
within a 100 yard radius of any pre-1800's music. They can do Carculli,

Targuado etc.- that's would be between consenting adults.
And they should be given mandatory therapy to get them off that G-thing

entirely. And don't tell me that G-thing is genetic. It ain't.
RT
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-09 21:29:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Am I correct in assuming you meant that they are hostile to the
idea of
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
playing lute music on guitar? Or do they really feel like this?
I'm sure they feel like the photo at times. But here is a recent
thread about the guitar on the lute list, written by the Grand Dragon
himself.... You tell me if their hostile or not!
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
But, If a guitarist wants to play Bach or Weiss, he or she shouldn't be
discouraged.
I think they should be, by any means possible.
Moreover shey should sign an affidavit by which they'd promise not to
come
within a 100 yard radius of any pre-1800's music. They can do Carculli,
Targuado etc.- that's would be between consenting adults.
And they should be given mandatory therapy to get them off that G-thing
entirely. And don't tell me that G-thing is genetic. It ain't.
RT
Don't be coy--who's the dragon, Roman?

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Tashi
2006-05-09 22:09:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Don't be coy--who's the dragon, Roman?
It is..... his statements are rather hilarious when you throw in what
Robert Barto told me in the up coming interveiw it did with him for
Soundboard.

Barto said...
I think it's important that guitarists realize this and not necessarily
look
to lute performances for guidance in their interpretation of Bach.
(Weiss is
an entirely different matter, so please do.) Personally, I would just
as
soon hear Bach on the guitar.

MT
Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-09 23:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Don't be coy--who's the dragon, Roman?
It is..... his statements are rather hilarious when you throw in what
Robert Barto told me in the up coming interveiw it did with him for
Soundboard.
Barto said...
I think it's important that guitarists realize this and not necessarily
look
to lute performances for guidance in their interpretation of Bach.
(Weiss is
an entirely different matter, so please do.) Personally, I would just
as
soon hear Bach on the guitar.
MT
I'm no purist; Lord knows, RT has ruffled some feathers over the
years--here too. Still, I'd bet he's not the ogre he sometimes seems on
the web.

Steve
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 18:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Robert,
I think unfortunately some how, the Dresden got pigeon holed into
the stigma of a student study guitar, or some such thing. Steve Aron
originally wanted me to make a lute for the the guitar department. I
said there is nothing that will turn someone off to baroque lute music
more than a guitarist actually playing a lute. So I came up with the
Dresden. Steve then started to think of the possibilities and then
wanted one as well. At the last minute Steve decided on a different
tuning and wanted an additional treble. This is a huge problem on a
650mm guitar, ( I had already made it ) one has to go down to about
610mm scale to have a large enough diameter ( .55mm carbon ) string to
give the guitar any punch. Baroque lutes usually start at 700mm and go
up to 760mm.
This last GFA I was able to hang with the master himself Bob Barto,
I mentioned my idea to him about a thirteen string guitar, which He
replied why don't they just play lute? I said no self respecting
guitarist is willing to give it all up, and cut off their nails. He
said that a thirteen string guitar would be much better than an 11
enabling one to play all of those beautiful b-minor sonatas in the
Dresden. Think the best Barto could say about the guitar was " every
guitar program should have one" as kind as he was to say that. Barto
BTW plays a 7 string 19th century guitar as well and has made a
recording of guitar duets, of that period.
Most lutenists are extremely hostile to the guitar, and after sending
some lute friends, the Dresden link they have not written me back! Ha
Ha! who cares.
So my hope id that someone will recognized the potential for an
actual career playing such an instrument. If Paul Galbrith can do it
on an 8 string how much more for thirteen?
MT
Thank you for the story behind the "Dresden." I can understand
Robert's reaction to your idea. He can be quite direct. I have the
same reaction, but alas, as I cannot play the big lute anymore, I find
the idea attractive.....or at least more attractive than nothing at
all. Hence my interest in the 11 stringer.

It was originally intended for the ten course lute literature (Vallet,
Ballard, Galilei, etc.) I added the extra string "just in case." The
folks at Aquila strings worked up a d minor set for me that works very
well. I think they will be able to come up with a set of 13 as well.

I don't think lute players are "hostile" to guitar. Most were guitar
players first, after all. They were just seduced by the likes of
Dowland and Weiss over Torroba and Tarrega. Me too.

I don't see any one blossoming with a career the 13 string dmin tuned
guitar playing the standard baroque lute material. There are too many
of the real things out there, IMO......and the Liuto Forte even looks
like a lute http://www.liuto-forte.com/english/index.htm .

However, if you happen to have an extra "Dresden" laying around that
needs to be test driven, send it along. I'd love to try one.

Robert
m***@gmail.com
2006-05-09 16:58:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
At 7 grand a pop, I don't think this is the wave of the future for
guitar players that just want to dabble with the 13 course lute
music.....in tablature.
OTOH, any guitarists who wishes not only to dabble, but actually play
the music, and this is not only Weiss and Bach, but also Kellner,
Falckenhagen etc etc, this will be a good thing. And the price tag is
not all that out of line with the price of good hand-made guitars by
many well known luthiers.
Post by Robert Crim
However, work progresses with the Hippner/Crim 13 string design. It
will be a 13 string version of the 11 stringer he built for me last
year. Biggest problem is getting the headstock short enough to fit
inside a Gator 12 string dreadnought case without shortening the scale
length or the number of frets to the body.
What's wrong with ordering a special case to fit the guitar? yes, it
adds to the cost, but then there is no artificial demands on the design
of the instrument.

MO.
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 17:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Robert Crim
At 7 grand a pop, I don't think this is the wave of the future for
guitar players that just want to dabble with the 13 course lute
music.....in tablature.
OTOH, any guitarists who wishes not only to dabble, but actually play
the music, and this is not only Weiss and Bach, but also Kellner,
Falckenhagen etc etc, this will be a good thing.
I'm not so sure. The difference between right hand positions is
substantial. With the list of composers you cite, your thumb
literally lives up (positionally) in the bass strings while the
fingers are making all sorts of contortions trying to keep up.
Post by m***@gmail.com
And the price tag is
not all that out of line with the price of good hand-made guitars by
many well known luthiers.
For my money, the products of those well known luthiers do not live up
their the prices they ask. Perhaps I've been spoiled by my
association with Darren Hippner, but he seems to deliver a very good
guitar for much less $$.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Robert Crim
However, work progresses with the Hippner/Crim 13 string design. It
will be a 13 string version of the 11 stringer he built for me last
year. Biggest problem is getting the headstock short enough to fit
inside a Gator 12 string dreadnought case without shortening the scale
length or the number of frets to the body.
What's wrong with ordering a special case to fit the guitar? yes, it
adds to the cost, but then there is no artificial demands on the design
of the instrument.
The design of the instrument using mechanical pegs is much more
compact than an enormously long headstock using machine heads.
Having spent a while toting a 6 foot long theorbo through train
stations and airports I am sensitive to that problem. That Gator
case will fit in an airplane overhead and is also pretty
inexpensive..$80.

Robert
Tashi
2006-05-09 18:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
I'm not so sure. The difference between right hand positions is
substantial. With the list of composers you cite, your thumb
literally lives up (positionally) in the bass strings while the
fingers are making all sorts of contortions trying to keep up
All it takes is a little practice! It's very disorienting at first,
and guitarists
will have a break in time but if you stick with it, it's easy. I did an
interview with Barto coming out in the next Soundboard. Barto talks
allot about these kind of things. Problems for guitarists attempting
the lute.

Ernst Gottlieb Baron
said the baroque lute was so easy 8 year old children are playing it.

Robert, if I follow you train of thought, then no one should attempt
anything
that might present a challenge, and not attempt playing the baroque
lute or anything with more than 6 strings. I don't know how much time
you've invested in playing your ( inexpensive 11 string guitar) and I'm
not sure of the design ( send us a photo) .
As a previous lute maker and player I know one must incorporate
features in a 11 or 13 string guitar that make it not sound so guitar
like, in other words you can't just stick 13 strings on any old box and
call it an instrument worthy of consideration.

The movement of the thumb in baroque lute music is so well thought
by composers such as Weiss etc. The key is resting your thumb on the
next string to be plucked which usually is the string your thumb
naturally lands on.
Artists like Robert Barto basically rediscovered the technique
of the baroque lute. He has now paved the way for a whole new
generation of players, that thanks to him
are for the first time exposed to Weiss played with such perfection.
If Barto thought like you Robert then we would be far less aware of the
whole new repertoire now presented to us by the best composer the world
has ever known for plucked instrument. In Bach's Bio Forkel compares
Weiss's compositions to Bach's quite an honor.
Goran Sollscher went through all the technical " contortions" and has
gone on to sell over a million Cd's, and for my taste plays the best
Bach out there.

Besides wanting to see Bob Barto, and some lute friends at the LSA, I
wouldn't be caught dead with those losers.

PS. The Viheula comment was just a joke!
MT
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 19:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Robert Crim
I'm not so sure. The difference between right hand positions is
substantial. With the list of composers you cite, your thumb
literally lives up (positionally) in the bass strings while the
fingers are making all sorts of contortions trying to keep up
All it takes is a little practice! It's very disorienting at first,
and guitarists
will have a break in time but if you stick with it, it's easy. I did an
interview with Barto coming out in the next Soundboard. Barto talks
allot about these kind of things. Problems for guitarists attempting
the lute.
Ernst Gottlieb Baron
said the baroque lute was so easy 8 year old children are playing it.
Robert, if I follow you train of thought, then no one should attempt
anything
that might present a challenge, and not attempt playing the baroque
lute or anything with more than 6 strings. I don't know how much time
you've invested in playing your ( inexpensive 11 string guitar) and I'm
not sure of the design ( send us a photo) .
As a previous lute maker and player I know one must incorporate
features in a 11 or 13 string guitar that make it not sound so guitar
like, in other words you can't just stick 13 strings on any old box and
call it an instrument worthy of consideration.
The movement of the thumb in baroque lute music is so well thought
by composers such as Weiss etc. The key is resting your thumb on the
next string to be plucked which usually is the string your thumb
naturally lands on.
Artists like Robert Barto basically rediscovered the technique
of the baroque lute. He has now paved the way for a whole new
generation of players, that thanks to him
are for the first time exposed to Weiss played with such perfection.
If Barto thought like you Robert then we would be far less aware of the
whole new repertoire now presented to us by the best composer the world
has ever known for plucked instrument. In Bach's Bio Forkel compares
Weiss's compositions to Bach's quite an honor.
Goran Sollscher went through all the technical " contortions" and has
gone on to sell over a million Cd's, and for my taste plays the best
Bach out there.
Besides wanting to see Bob Barto, and some lute friends at the LSA, I
wouldn't be caught dead with those losers.
PS. The Viheula comment was just a joke!
MT
I'm not sure why there is so much hostility and condescension coming
from you to me on this topic. I think it best for me to bow out and
leave you with it.

Robert
Tashi
2006-05-09 20:26:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
I'm not sure why there is so much hostility and condescension coming
from you to me on this topic. I think it best for me to bow out and
leave you with it.
Robert
Perhaps because you have been extremely negative about my guitar from
the beginning.
I know when someone can play the baroque lute ( 11 string guitar) or
not. The comments from you, tell me you can't! ( your contortions and
all)
You state you originally had it made for ren music and then decided to
add an eleventh string, this tells me that you are not a dedicated
baroque lute player, and have barely skimmed the surface of the
technique involved, yet you've been acting like your an authority on
it. Again lets see your inexpensive 11 string guitar design.(photos).
Just because you can't actually play the 11 or 13 string repertoire,
don't ruin it for others.

As far as making a living playing mostly all baroque music, why don't
you ask Goran sollscher, Paul Galbrith, Robert Barto, Nigel North etc.
how their all managing to stay afloat?

MT
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 21:08:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Robert Crim
I'm not sure why there is so much hostility and condescension coming
from you to me on this topic. I think it best for me to bow out and
leave you with it.
Robert
Perhaps because you have been extremely negative about my guitar from
the beginning.
I know when someone can play the baroque lute ( 11 string guitar) or
not. The comments from you, tell me you can't! ( your contortions and
all)
You state you originally had it made for ren music and then decided to
add an eleventh string, this tells me that you are not a dedicated
baroque lute player, and have barely skimmed the surface of the
technique involved, yet you've been acting like your an authority on
it. Again lets see your inexpensive 11 string guitar design.(photos).
Just because you can't actually play the 11 or 13 string repertoire,
don't ruin it for others.
As far as making a living playing mostly all baroque music, why don't
you ask Goran sollscher, Paul Galbrith, Robert Barto, Nigel North etc.
how their all managing to stay afloat?
MT
You have made a large number of assumptions about me and my background
without actually asking any questions. Tsk, tsk. You have also made
a large number of misinterpretations of what I actually said and
jumped to a lot of unfounded conclusions. Tsk, tsk.

For the record here is the first post I made about your guitar on
March 29,2006:
===========================================================
Well, if you insist on playing Weiss on the guitar, you should check
out http://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/sub13.htm . You could save
yourself a lot of $$ on transcriptions and a lot of headaches trying
to play them.

Looks and sounds nice to these lutey ears.

Robert
===========================================================

That's hardly negative.

Also for the record, my first baroque lute lesson was in 1981 with T.
Satoh. I played and performed on the concert stage and at historical
venues on the 13 course lute for over two decades. My current lute
cabinet contains an 11 course by Rutherford, and 13 course lutes by
Van de Geest, Meadows, and Brune. But then you didn't ask about
background and experience did you?

My impression is that you are not really interested in getting
feedback about your instrument and it's possible users.....but then
you didn't really ask for any either. My comments were in response to
the other posters in the thread.

I'll be sure to pass your kind regards to the losers at the LSA
Seminar.

Robert
Tashi
2006-05-09 21:53:09 UTC
Permalink
Well, if you insist on playing Weiss on the guitar, you should check
Post by Robert Crim
out http://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/sub13.htm . You could save
yourself a lot of $$ on transcriptions and a lot of headaches trying
t>o play them.
Post by Robert Crim
Looks and sounds nice to these lutey ears.
Robert
I appreciate your positive remarks, so why then did you tell
everyone it was too expensive and too hard to play,and just for
dabblers, no one could have a career playing this guitar etc. It all
borders on the negative to me.
Post by Robert Crim
Also for the record, my first baroque lute lesson was in 1981 with T.
Satoh. I played and performed on the concert stage and at historical
venues on the 13 course lute for over two decades. My current lute
abinet contains an 11 course by Rutherford, and 13 course lutes by
Van de Geest, Meadows, and Brune. But then you didn't ask about
background and experience did you?
Then Robert you should be quite a virtuoso by now. So why then all
these "contortions" and problems. I've only been playing the thing for
5 years and I have no complaints, and in fact find easier than a 6
string guitar now! and I'm not even that good of a player!
I'm sorry but I've never heard a serious lute player site the problems
you've spoken of.
I have a lot of lutes laying around the house too.
Post by Robert Crim
I'll be sure to pass your kind regards to the losers at the LSA
Seminar
I have no kind regards for the luteneters. I think Segovia said " If
one can't play, and can't compose you become a music scholar.....
welcome to the world according to the lute society! I hope you learn
allot!

MT
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 23:12:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
I have no kind regards for the luteneters.
I think Segovia said " If
one can't play, and can't compose you become a music scholar.....
welcome to the world according to the lute society! I hope you learn
allot!
MT
I've been a member of LSA since 1973 so I hardly need to be "welcomed"
to their ranks. I hope I learn a lot too. I'll be rubbing elbows
with a lot of old friends and new acquaintances after a too long
absence.

Robert
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 23:50:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Then Robert you should be quite a virtuoso by now. So why then all
these "contortions" and problems.
Compared to the usual classical guitar hand position, the use of the
thumb on the 13ch lute in the German literature requires the right
hand fingers to "contort" in order to make the free stroke by the
fingers while making the rest stroke with the thumb. I believe MO
mentioned that as well.

Using orthodox classical guitar methodology will just not work and the
thumb will become "lost" in the basses. That's why I scrapped the
guitar in favor of the lute those years ago.

Virtuoso? Hardly. I was a competent, and at times, really good
performer, but I started too late to even think in terms of being a
virtuoso. Now, alas, some fingers have plastic joints and others need
them so I'm out of the game and on the sidelines.
Post by Tashi
I've only been playing the thing for
5 years and I have no complaints, and in fact find easier than a 6
string guitar now!
I too found the baroque lute easier than the guitar because of the
left hand. It goes back and forth instead of up and down. The
literature is also more idiomatic. It is also much easier than the
renaissance lute because the music is slower for the left hand...not
so much deedle, deedle, deedle at supersonic (O'Dette) speed.
Post by Tashi
and I'm not even that good of a player!
Perhaps you are better than you think compared to the usual guitarist.
Post by Tashi
I'm sorry but I've never heard a serious lute player site the problems
you've spoken of.
I didn't cite "problems" I only cited differences that the usual
guitar play may not be able to comprehend without actually trying it
out. Your guitar is, IMHO not priced low enough for the usual guitar
player to even consider trying out.

Let me say again, I like your design and I like the idea of your
"Dresden" guitar. I like the sound and I like the looks. If I had
the $$ I'd get one in a New York minute...that's not bullshit either.

I just can't see it taking over from the lute world because I don't
see guitarists forsaking the current guitar literature in favor of
Weiss, et al even if there is a 13 string guitar available. I also
don't see guitarists going through the adjustments required to play it
at a concert level.

But, maybe there are some out there. We can only hope, eh?

Robert
.............proud owner and user of an Altgitarren because I have all
of Sollscher's Bach CDs.
Andrew Schulman
2006-05-10 00:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Robert Crim wrote:
I'd get one in a New York minute...

As a lifelong New Yorker I must say this, what the heck is a "New York
minute"?

Just curious.

Anyway, how would I know something like that, after all my guitar ONLY
has 8 strings!

Andrew
Robert Crim
2006-05-10 00:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
I'd get one in a New York minute...
As a lifelong New Yorker I must say this, what the heck is a "New York
minute"?
Just curious.
According to my wife, a native of Queens, a New York minute is the
time it takes for her to smack me up'side the head for saying
something stoopid.
Post by Robert Crim
Anyway, how would I know something like that, after all my guitar ONLY
has 8 strings!
Get more strings. It's a gas. With enough strings you can call lute
players "losers." Be careful lest you become one though.

Robert
Andrew Schulman
2006-05-10 00:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
According to my wife, a native of Queens, a New York minute is the
time it takes for her to smack me up'side the head for saying
something stoopid.
Hey, I grew up in Queens, what neighborhood is she from?
Post by Robert Crim
Get more strings. It's a gas. With enough strings you can call lute
players "losers." Be careful lest you become one though.
Robert, we've been through this before. There is only one true guitar,
and that is the 8-string guitar. And anyone who thinks otherwise is
correct.

Andrew
Robert Crim
2006-05-10 01:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Hey, I grew up in Queens, what neighborhood is she from?
Fresh Meadows. I used to enjoy the Hilltop Diner's "bow ties and
weenies" while waiting for my "chicken in a pot." It's about three
blocks from St.John's College and two blocks from "Delimasters."

Robert
Andrew Schulman
2006-05-10 02:08:10 UTC
Permalink
I grew up in Far Rockaway in the 1950's, we lived next door to one of
the last working farms in NYC. It was wonderful...

A.
Robert Crim
2006-05-10 02:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
I grew up in Far Rockaway in the 1950's, we lived next door to one of
the last working farms in NYC. It was wonderful...
A.
I spent some really good times out on the far end of Long Is. doing
surveys for nautical charts of the area between Orient Pt. and Plum
Is. The duck farms and the lobster boats were the highlights of my 3
month stay there...except for having to strip and change clothes for
our day on Plum Is. There is some nasty stuff going on there.

We used to intercept the fishing boats on their way back to Orient Pt.
and buy fish and/or lobsters for dinner. Best score was a 10 pound
lobster that could have taken the side off of a Buick. We broke him
into pieces, boiled him and ate him with lots of butter and beer. He
served 6 hungry, drunken surveyors.

Good times.

Robert
Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-10 02:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
I grew up in Far Rockaway in the 1950's, we lived next door to one of
the last working farms in NYC. It was wonderful...
A.
I grew up partly in East New York in Brooklyn, and there was a working
dairy farm on Vermont Street and Stanley Ave. IIRC through the early
1960s. You and esp. Robert may remember a working farm even more
recently on 73rd Ave. in Fresh Meadows maybe about 190th St.
Sad to see them go...

Steve
Andrew Schulman
2006-05-10 03:01:44 UTC
Permalink
Steven Bornfeld wrote:
You and esp. Robert may remember a working farm even more
Post by Steven Bornfeld
recently on 73rd Ave. in Fresh Meadows maybe about 190th St.
Sad to see them go...
That was the last one IIRC, it is sad...

A.
Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-10 13:08:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Bornfeld
You and esp. Robert may remember a working farm even more
Post by Steven Bornfeld
recently on 73rd Ave. in Fresh Meadows maybe about 190th St.
Sad to see them go...
That was the last one IIRC, it is sad...
A.
I think some of the equipment may have ended up at the Queens County
Farm Museum on Little Neck Pkwy. That's a great place--esp. if you've
got kids to go with.

Steve
Robert Crim
2006-05-10 03:15:27 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 May 2006 02:36:04 GMT, Steven Bornfeld
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by Andrew Schulman
I grew up in Far Rockaway in the 1950's, we lived next door to one of
the last working farms in NYC. It was wonderful...
A.
I grew up partly in East New York in Brooklyn, and there was a working
dairy farm on Vermont Street and Stanley Ave. IIRC through the early
1960s. You and esp. Robert may remember a working farm even more
recently on 73rd Ave. in Fresh Meadows maybe about 190th St.
Sad to see them go...
Steve
I don't remember a farm in that area, but I do have fond memories of
riding my bike from Fresh Meadows down to the old railroad tracks to
Creedmoor and then to that wetland park by North Shores. Forgive me
if I don't have the names right. I was just a visitor.

Also, I enjoyed a number of zesty sessions at the Kissena bike track
with the local hot dogs. One gut in particular rode a stripped to the
bare metal frame track bike with dreadlocks like someone out of a
James Bond movie. I was riding my vintage ' 68 Raleigh track bike
and I was in top shape. He looked like he had been smoking ganga all
day.

He kicked my ass 2 out of 3 runs. I declined a 3 out of 5 deal for
my bike or his and settled for just buying the dude...and me...and his
hot chick...two 6 packs of Ballantine Ale.

Good times in Flushing.......back in the day.

Robert
Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-10 13:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Wed, 10 May 2006 02:36:04 GMT, Steven Bornfeld
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by Andrew Schulman
I grew up in Far Rockaway in the 1950's, we lived next door to one of
the last working farms in NYC. It was wonderful...
A.
I grew up partly in East New York in Brooklyn, and there was a working
dairy farm on Vermont Street and Stanley Ave. IIRC through the early
1960s. You and esp. Robert may remember a working farm even more
recently on 73rd Ave. in Fresh Meadows maybe about 190th St.
Sad to see them go...
Steve
I don't remember a farm in that area, but I do have fond memories of
riding my bike from Fresh Meadows down to the old railroad tracks to
Creedmoor and then to that wetland park by North Shores. Forgive me
if I don't have the names right. I was just a visitor.
Also, I enjoyed a number of zesty sessions at the Kissena bike track
with the local hot dogs. One gut in particular rode a stripped to the
bare metal frame track bike with dreadlocks like someone out of a
James Bond movie. I was riding my vintage ' 68 Raleigh track bike
and I was in top shape. He looked like he had been smoking ganga all
day.
He kicked my ass 2 out of 3 runs. I declined a 3 out of 5 deal for
my bike or his and settled for just buying the dude...and me...and his
hot chick...two 6 packs of Ballantine Ale.
Good times in Flushing.......back in the day.
Robert
I haven't been back there since they rebuilt it--it's supposed to be
relatively lux now.
You may remember Sam Zeitlin from those days? He was a national
caliber rider maybe the early-mid 60s. He unfortunately passed away
last year. We had quite a few great riders coming through, and many of
them came from the West Indies--Patrick Gellineau is the name that comes
to mind. Harvey Nitz lived in Flushing for a while and rode there.
I never raced the track myself.

Steve
Robert Crim
2006-05-10 13:48:46 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 May 2006 13:12:04 GMT, Steven Bornfeld
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Harvey Nitz lived in Flushing for a while and rode there.
I never raced the track myself.
I'm familiar with Nitz from Trexlertown, Pa. Now that's a nice track.
I haven't seen the new Kissena surface, but it has to be a lot better
than the old one. It would beat you to death. Lots of patched holes
and open cracks made doing laps a study in up and down motion.

I can't imagine someone as fast as Nitz seriously racing there. Too
dangerous. Most of the denizens seemed to be bike couriers on a day
off.

Robert
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-10 14:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Wed, 10 May 2006 13:12:04 GMT, Steven Bornfeld
Post by Steven Bornfeld
Harvey Nitz lived in Flushing for a while and rode there.
I never raced the track myself.
I'm familiar with Nitz from Trexlertown, Pa. Now that's a nice track.
I haven't seen the new Kissena surface, but it has to be a lot better
than the old one. It would beat you to death. Lots of patched holes
and open cracks made doing laps a study in up and down motion.
I can't imagine someone as fast as Nitz seriously racing there. Too
dangerous. Most of the denizens seemed to be bike couriers on a day
off.
Robert
Unfortunately, there were plenty of Cat I riders willing to come down
on a Wed. evening for the opportunity. Many of them were from Jamaica
and Trinidad, some national champions. One guy I'd occasionally ride
with in Prospect Park was one James Joseph, a match sprint champ from
Guyana with a mouth almost as fast as his legs. He never tired of
telling us that he finished "4th in the world in San Cristobal" (this
was in 1974, IIRC). He truly had a fearsome jump, and he moved so far
up and down the inadequate banking at Kissena that everyone was afraid
of him. I got to see him ride in the mid '80s at T-town, and his jump
was faster than anyones. Only problem was, at least by then he couldn't
hold his top end, which meant unless the sprint went late he wouldn't
stand a chance.
Nitz was married to one of the Moore sisters (Kathy I think--the
blonde) and lived in Flushing. He rode almost every week. He never
tried to humiliate the other riders, sometimes just staying in the pack.
If he wanted to win he could pretty much at will, just edging his
wheel ahead at the line. After they split up he moved out to California,
I think. This was so different from Mike McCarthy, a brash kid who went
on to be a pro World Pursuit champ. McCarthy at age 14 would ride away
from everyone, and cast disparaging glances at the gasping group behind
him. He was terrific, but something happened in the mid '80s--I think
they said he developed chronic fatigue syndrome and he was never the same.
Yeah, some of them were bike couriers--remember Nelson Vails?

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Robert Crim
2006-05-10 14:25:38 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 May 2006 14:10:40 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Yeah, some of them were bike couriers--remember Nelson Vails?
The guy from the opening of the movie "Quicksilver" that we were
supposed to think was Kevin Bacon? Sure I remember him. The Cheeta.
He had legs like tree trunks.

I think he's doing bike tours in Colorado now. Strange thing for an
Olympic star to be doing, but I guess it beats being a messenger, eh?

Robert
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-10 14:46:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Wed, 10 May 2006 14:10:40 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Yeah, some of them were bike couriers--remember Nelson Vails?
The guy from the opening of the movie "Quicksilver" that we were
supposed to think was Kevin Bacon? Sure I remember him. The Cheeta.
He had legs like tree trunks.
I think he's doing bike tours in Colorado now. Strange thing for an
Olympic star to be doing, but I guess it beats being a messenger, eh?
Robert
Somehow I managed never to see "Quicksilver".
Still, I can't imagine what kind of makeup would make Vails

Loading Image...

look like Bacon:

Loading Image...

Hollywood is wonderful!

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Robert Crim
2006-05-10 15:47:21 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 May 2006 14:46:15 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Still, I can't imagine what kind of makeup would make Vails
http://www.topolinotech.com/images/testimonials/nelson-vails.jpg
In the opening credits they had a camera mounted on Vails' handlebars.
The footage of him going in and out of traffic, up on sidewalks, down
one way streets the wrong way, etc. was scary. It made you feel like
you were the one on the bike.

Of course, you never saw Vails at all, silly Dentist.

Robert

Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-10 02:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
Post by Andrew Schulman
Hey, I grew up in Queens, what neighborhood is she from?
Fresh Meadows. I used to enjoy the Hilltop Diner's "bow ties and
weenies" while waiting for my "chicken in a pot." It's about three
blocks from St.John's College and two blocks from "Delimasters."
Robert
I'm told the Hilltop Diner is gone, sadly. Actually, it was a bit
further from St. Johns, but not much.
I spent most of my residency at Mary Immaculate Hospital, and my dad
still lives in the Pomonok Houses (Jewel bet. Parsons and Kissena), so I
know that area well.

Steve
Robert Crim
2006-05-10 01:56:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Robert, we've been through this before. There is only one true guitar,
and that is the 8-string guitar. And anyone who thinks otherwise is
correct.
Andrew
Well, the 8 stringer does take up less room than a 10 or 11 stringer
that's for sure. I'm not sure it's as versatile as the 10 string
though. Who knows? It's all in how the player handles whatever
he/she has. It's a lot like pecker size, eh?

BTW, here is the basis for Hippner's 11 string...
http://www.btinternet.com/~steve.sedgwick/11string.htm

Enjoy your 6,7,8,10 or 11 string guitars and make good musica!!

Robert
Andrew Schulman
2006-05-10 02:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
I'm not sure it's as versatile as the 10 string
though. Who knows?
It would be nice to have all of them, but I live in a one bedroom
apartment. There's me and the wife, the two dogs, and room for only so
many guitars.

But I do love the 8-stringers...

A.
Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-10 02:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Robert Crim
According to my wife, a native of Queens, a New York minute is the
time it takes for her to smack me up'side the head for saying
something stoopid.
Hey, I grew up in Queens, what neighborhood is she from?
Post by Robert Crim
Get more strings. It's a gas. With enough strings you can call lute
players "losers." Be careful lest you become one though.
Robert, we've been through this before. There is only one true guitar,
and that is the 8-string guitar. And anyone who thinks otherwise is
correct.
Andrew
Don't go gettin' soft and mushy on us, Andrew.

Steve
Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-10 02:28:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
Post by Robert Crim
I'd get one in a New York minute...
As a lifelong New Yorker I must say this, what the heck is a "New York
minute"?
Just curious.
According to my wife, a native of Queens, a New York minute is the
time it takes for her to smack me up'side the head for saying
something stoopid.
According to New York Magazine, "Queens is the new Brooklyn".

Steve
Post by Robert Crim
Post by Robert Crim
Anyway, how would I know something like that, after all my guitar ONLY
has 8 strings!
Get more strings. It's a gas. With enough strings you can call lute
players "losers." Be careful lest you become one though.
Robert
Robert Crim
2006-05-10 02:29:50 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 May 2006 02:28:19 GMT, Steven Bornfeld
Post by Steven Bornfeld
According to New York Magazine, "Queens is the new Brooklyn".
Steve
Is that good or bad?

Robert
Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-10 02:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Wed, 10 May 2006 02:28:19 GMT, Steven Bornfeld
Post by Steven Bornfeld
According to New York Magazine, "Queens is the new Brooklyn".
Steve
Is that good or bad?
Robert
At the risk of angering my real estate sellin' wife, I think it's
bad--real bad--at least in the sense that New York magazine meant it--as
a nidus of hip.

Steve
Che'
2006-05-10 00:24:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
I'd get one in a New York minute...
As a lifelong New Yorker I must say this, what the heck is a "New York
minute"?
Listen to "New York Minute" by The Eagles.

Che'
Post by Robert Crim
Just curious. Anyway, how would I know something like that, after all my
guitar ONLY has 8 strings!<
Andrew
t***@jhu.edu
2006-05-10 00:20:34 UTC
Permalink
What would be the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Dresden
design versus the archguitar concept?
Che'
2006-05-10 01:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@jhu.edu
What would be the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Dresden
design versus the archguitar concept?<
http://www.archguitar.com/recordings.html

Quelle edt cette odeur agréeable? Is a good example. It's a Christmas
song.

http://www.elevenstrings.com/

I can't speak to the Dresden but with the range of an archguitar you can
play almost anything. It doesn't make any difference, any music sounds
good. I did "Rocky Raccoon" (Beatles) just messing around and people loved
it. I later did it with a little group where I could really cut loose an
everyone wanted to know about that little guitar.

You can pick up a first class archguitar for about 3.5k. I first got a used
one for 2k ... they are around.

http://www.perlmanguitars.com/welcome.htm

http://pappalardo.a.free.fr/versprec/le_tour/htmluth.htm

Maybe M.T. is making an arch. I was 48 when I first got one.

Che'
Tashi
2006-05-10 02:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Robert,
OK, now I see you are a true lute player, and I see where you are
coming from. I think we all enjoy a good
jousting once in a while, just ask Matanya!
I'm probably a bit edgy having come from the Devil's den otherwise
known as the lutelist.

I don't envision the Dresden as a must have guitar for everyone, but I
think a few players will end up buying them and
who knows maybe someone might carve out a career for themselves. If I
were young and naive again I would do it.
It is expensive, but the cost of a good baroque lute is higher in most
cases. The Sloane tuners alone cost $500.00 (3 sets) a custom set of
Alessi's are around $1500.00 not to mention the first set of strings
at $100.00 and the case is about $500.00 all of this is included in the
price.

I don't think this is the kind of guitar to send out on a week's
approval as by the end of the week you most likely would want to give
it back
but after 3 months of dedicated playing you wouldn't want to give it
up.

Not to go over the top here but, there is a vast difference between my
instrument and the Torres one you based your design on.
I won't go into detail here...it's all on my website.
Robert thanks for the kinds words.
MT
Robert Crim
2006-05-10 03:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Robert,
OK, now I see you are a true lute player, and I see where you are
coming from. I think we all enjoy a good
jousting once in a while, just ask Matanya!
I'm probably a bit edgy having come from the Devil's den otherwise
known as the lutelist.
IMO, that lute list is a real snakepit. That's why I only read it a
bit and never post. Who needs that kind of shit?
Post by Tashi
I don't envision the Dresden as a must have guitar for everyone, but I
think a few players will end up buying them and
who knows maybe someone might carve out a career for themselves. If I
were young and naive again I would do it.
Wouldn't we all?
Post by Tashi
It is expensive, but the cost of a good baroque lute is higher in most
cases. The Sloane tuners alone cost $500.00 (3 sets) a custom set of
Alessi's are around $1500.00 not to mention the first set of strings
at $100.00 and the case is about $500.00 all of this is included in the
price.
I admire the elegance of your solution to the stringing/tuner problem.
It's not easy to get all those strings stuffed into such a compact
space while still being able to actually buy suitable strings.

Have you seen the Hauser 10 string lay out? It's another elegant
solution. I'm thinking the Bolin altgitarren headstock with another 2
strings will do the trick. Hippner is not sure he could/should go for
a copy of yours. Too much labor involved and besides, it's yours.
Post by Tashi
I don't think this is the kind of guitar to send out on a week's
approval as by the end of the week you most likely would want to give
it back
I don't think so. I think you'd have to come down and drag it out of
my hands with my big dog chomping on your leg. Would you care to
consider a trade for one of my lutes? I'm serious here.
Post by Tashi
but after 3 months of dedicated playing you wouldn't want to give it
up.
No doubt.
Post by Tashi
Not to go over the top here but, there is a vast difference between my
instrument and the Torres one you based your design on.
Of course there is a difference. I was looking for a 10 string guitar
without all that wood on the fingerboard. I wanted to do some of the
French Air de Cours stuff with a really shapely (lady) singer, but
didn't have a suitable instrument...for the music, not the singer...so
I found a guitar design that had lots of extra strings on it. Hippner
was up for the challenge and he made it. It worked out pretty well
and it has a nice sound even with the dmin tuning.

I think your design concept can be simplified and thus made less
costly by using cheaper tuners, eliminating the carved rosette, and
making to fit into a generally available production case. Imitation
is indeed the sincerest form of flattery.
Post by Tashi
Robert thanks for the kinds words.
I'm glad we could sort out the BS and get to the real communication.
I'd love to play Weiss on one of those Dresdens some day.

Good luck,

Robert
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-09 21:27:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by Robert Crim
I'm not sure why there is so much hostility and condescension coming
from you to me on this topic. I think it best for me to bow out and
leave you with it.
Robert
Perhaps because you have been extremely negative about my guitar from
the beginning.
Whoa--remember that Robert was the first one to come here and recommend
we humble guitarists take a look at your guitar!

Steve
Post by Tashi
I know when someone can play the baroque lute ( 11 string guitar) or
not. The comments from you, tell me you can't! ( your contortions and
all)
You state you originally had it made for ren music and then decided to
add an eleventh string, this tells me that you are not a dedicated
baroque lute player, and have barely skimmed the surface of the
technique involved, yet you've been acting like your an authority on
it. Again lets see your inexpensive 11 string guitar design.(photos).
Just because you can't actually play the 11 or 13 string repertoire,
don't ruin it for others.
As far as making a living playing mostly all baroque music, why don't
you ask Goran sollscher, Paul Galbrith, Robert Barto, Nigel North etc.
how their all managing to stay afloat?
MT
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Tashi
2006-05-09 22:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Whoa--remember that Robert was the first one to come here and recommend
we humble guitarists take a look at your guitar!
I don't know, maybe Robert is just passive aggressive!
MT
Che'
2006-05-09 23:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Whoa--remember that Robert was the first one to come here and
recommend
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
we humble guitarists take a look at your guitar!
I don't know, maybe Robert is just passive aggressive!
MT<
What the hell Michael, we, you an I, never had a discouraging word. This is
a rogue guitar internet newsgroup far removed from real life. I've had
second year students here question my technical suggestions. You have to
take some of this with a grain of salt. I just like to cut up an act the
fool most the time.... it's fun pissing flustrated guitarist off.

When I first showed up on RMCG I was prompted by a close friend to share my
ideas and unusual techniques. In discussing scales I mentioned how fast I
played them clean and was called a liar right of the bat. I adopted the
screen name Petadoggy after dealing with some of these misguided teachers.
It's a little like midget bowling with classical wannabe guitarist.

It's too bad. You know a lot of West Coast guitar history and player's....
they could learn a lot from you but most are too full of themselves to
listen. They want you to prove things to them.... with their cheap off the
shelf guitars, newest guitar method, half-a$$ed guitar teachers practicing
an hour a day.

It is fun... in a perverse sort of way just don't take it too seriously.

Che' de Guy
Tashi
2006-05-09 23:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che'
It is fun... in a perverse sort of way just don't take it too seriously.
Che' de Guy
I agree this is total entertainment!
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 23:13:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Whoa--remember that Robert was the first one to come here and
recommend
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
we humble guitarists take a look at your guitar!
I don't know, maybe Robert is just passive aggressive!
MT
Aggressive, probably. Passive?..........now that's funny. You really
didn't do your homework, eh?

Robert
Che'
2006-05-09 23:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Whoa--remember that Robert was the first one to come here and
recommend
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
we humble guitarists take a look at your guitar!
I don't know, maybe Robert is just passive aggressive!
MT
Aggressive, probably. Passive?..........now that's funny. You really
didn't do your homework, eh?
Robert<
That's right you're a manly house-husband. Btw, you didn't mention Howard
Bass.

Che' de Guy
m***@gmail.com
2006-05-09 19:25:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
Post by m***@gmail.com
OTOH, any guitarists who wishes not only to dabble, but actually play
the music, and this is not only Weiss and Bach, but also Kellner,
Falckenhagen etc etc, this will be a good thing.
I'm not so sure. The difference between right hand positions is
substantial. With the list of composers you cite, your thumb
literally lives up (positionally) in the bass strings while the
fingers are making all sorts of contortions trying to keep up.
I have gone through the same process in learning to play the Russian
seven string guitar. Yes, right hand technique is different than that
used on the six string guitar, mainly because arpeggio patterns, like
p.i.m.a.m.i. often require a skip of a string between m and a, when the
chord is spread out on (7), (4) (3) and (1). Some people find this
difficult to do and experience undue stress in the RH. Other people,
myself, John Scheinderman, Oleg Timofeyev and a few others, have no
problem with this, and are able to switch between a standard six-string
and a seven-string with no difficulty at all. I would imagine the same
facility could be acquired on a 13-string guitar just as well. Of
course, resting the thumb on the adjacent string, planting it if you
will, greatly helps here. If one insists on using a technique where the
thumb is always free stroke, there would be problems.

MO.
Robert Crim
2006-05-09 19:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
I would imagine the same
facility could be acquired on a 13-string guitar just as well. Of
course, resting the thumb on the adjacent string, planting it if you
will, greatly helps here. If one insists on using a technique where the
thumb is always free stroke, there would be problems.
Without belaboring the point, if your middle knuckles of your right
hand fingers are flexible, then there is not much of a problem other
than having to get used to the discipline of keeping track of the
thumb position. Resting on the adjacent string and moving toward the
next bass to be played is the proper way to start, as you noted.

However, if you're bound and determined to use the "standard"
classical guitar free stroke thumb technique, then you will be in a
world of constant confusion on all but the most basic of pieces.
Spreading the rest stroke thumb and free stroke fingers over 13
strings with block or even arpeggiated chords also puts a lot of
stress on those middle joints.

Using rest stroke fingers and rest stroke thumb is possible with
single strings, though. That's why I'm working on that technique now.
I never knew how hard it is to make finger and thumb strike
simultaneously over such a distance. You can get a lot of rolled two
note chords...ouch!

Fun stuff.

Robert
Che'
2006-05-09 20:22:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
I never knew how hard it is to make finger and thumb strike
simultaneously over such a distance. You can get a lot of rolled two
note chords...ouch!
The flamenco alzapua technique will develop the speed and "reach back"
required on the archguitar.... I don't know about a 13 stringer. I
sometimes used the little finger for certain cases. I recall one ex. I
devised where P & I sounded their two notes followed by a chord M A C which
I later converted to an arppeggio.
You might try that.... think Pinch...relax, Pull....relax. etc.

Che'
Che'
2006-05-09 20:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Robert Crim
Post by m***@gmail.com
OTOH, any guitarists who wishes not only to dabble, but actually play
the music, and this is not only Weiss and Bach, but also Kellner,
Falckenhagen etc etc, this will be a good thing.
I'm not so sure. The difference between right hand positions is
substantial. With the list of composers you cite, your thumb
literally lives up (positionally) in the bass strings while the
fingers are making all sorts of contortions trying to keep up.
I have gone through the same process in learning to play the Russian
seven string guitar. Yes, right hand technique is different than that
used on the six string guitar, mainly because arpeggio patterns, like
p.i.m.a.m.i. often require a skip of a string between m and a, when the
chord is spread out on (7), (4) (3) and (1). Some people find this
difficult to do and experience undue stress in the RH. Other people,
myself, John Scheinderman, Oleg Timofeyev and a few others, have no
problem with this, and are able to switch between a standard six-string
and a seven-string with no difficulty at all. I would imagine the same
facility could be acquired on a 13-string guitar just as well. Of
course, resting the thumb on the adjacent string, planting it if you
will, greatly helps here. If one insists on using a technique where the
thumb is always free stroke, there would be problems.
MO.<
When I first got my 11 string archguitar I checked in a hotel for a week and
hid. It took some adjustment. My friends loved my "baby" guitar. It is
very natural for the thumb to come to rest ( and empty itself of tension )
on the adjacent string. String skipping in right hand was no big deal.
There's a huge advantage in what you can arrange for multi-string guitars,
imo.

I rearranged Manuel De Falla's "Introduction y Escena" with it's rasg.
furioso, " El Circulo Magico " and " En La Cueva La Noche"......muy
tranquillo e misterioso for that guitar the first month I got it. Fact is,
I always rest the right thumb on a bass string when I can..... why not,
unless it's actively damping?


Che'
Tashi
2006-05-09 20:53:27 UTC
Permalink
Che,
That's how you have to do it... go into a retreat and just play that
guitar only, for a while. Matanya, is right after a while the shift
between 6 and 7 through (13) becomes more familiar. As you've pointed
out resting the thumb is a very natural thing to do. If memory serves
me correct, I think Pepe Romero rests his thumb too!
Baroque lute technique is a little bit different than straight
guitar. It's basically the same as stated in Sor's method... you never
use the A finger except in chords, everything is played with I and M
and the thumb. One of the most baffling aspects of baroque lute
technique is the repetition of the same finger, and not as most would
think alternation of I and M. If you alternate I and M you will throw
your thumb out of position and probably run into the the " contortions"
Robert is talking about. I believe within the entire London MS Weiss
indicates the use of the A finger maybe 3 times. Weiss's fingerings do
show the repetition of the index finger and not alternation.
It bothers me greatly to hear inexperienced players proclaim how hard
it is to play the Baroque lute it is really much easier than most would
think. Your left hand is left with almost nothing to do.
MT
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
2006-05-09 18:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Crim
On Tue, 09 May 2006 16:32:00 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Post by Tashi
Check this out ! the wave of the future?
http://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/sub13.htm
Michael Thames
Robert Crim mentioned these a bit over a month ago, and there was some
good discussion.
Reference thread begun 3/29 header: "Well, if you insist......"
Steve
At 7 grand a pop, I don't think this is the wave of the future for
guitar players that just want to dabble with the 13 course lute
music.....in tablature.
However, work progresses with the Hippner/Crim 13 string design. It
will be a 13 string version of the 11 stringer he built for me last
year. Biggest problem is getting the headstock short enough to fit
inside a Gator 12 string dreadnought case without shortening the scale
length or the number of frets to the body.
I'll keep you posted.
Robert
Is it too early to ballpark what these babies will go for?

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
t***@jhu.edu
2006-05-09 16:59:10 UTC
Permalink
I can't get your clips to play. Would love to hear them.
Tashi
2006-05-09 17:05:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@jhu.edu
I can't get your clips to play. Would love to hear them
Terribly sorry, a few people have said this, I'm not sure why. My
wife does all the web stuff, we''l work on it.
If you can't hear them on the Dresden page try going back to the home
page where I the one peice comes up.
MT
John D. Rimmer
2006-05-09 23:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Post by t***@jhu.edu
I can't get your clips to play. Would love to hear them
Terribly sorry, a few people have said this, I'm not sure why. My
wife does all the web stuff, we''l work on it.
If you can't hear them on the Dresden page try going back to the home
page where I the one peice comes up.
MT
She has the links pointing to a local file on the "C" drive, not as a link
to the server.

The first one (Weiss Prelude) plays fine.

John
t***@jhu.edu
2006-05-09 23:57:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by John D. Rimmer
Post by Tashi
Post by t***@jhu.edu
I can't get your clips to play. Would love to hear them
Terribly sorry, a few people have said this, I'm not sure why. My
wife does all the web stuff, we''l work on it.
If you can't hear them on the Dresden page try going back to the home
page where I the one peice comes up.
MT
She has the links pointing to a local file on the "C" drive, not as a link
to the server.
The first one (Weiss Prelude) plays fine.
Excellent catch, John. I got to hear the first one. What fun! I'm
looking forward to the rest.

Michael, is that headstock all carved out of one piece of wood, or is
there a joint between the two sections? Also, how did you approach
bracing this instrument?

--Grizzly Adams Douchebag (my new nickname, since last night's Sopranos
episode)
Tashi
2006-05-10 03:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Girzzly,
Post by t***@jhu.edu
Michael, is that headstock all carved out of one piece of wood, or is
there a joint between the two sections? Also, how did you approach
bracing this instrument?
The head is all one piece with two veneers on the top and back. The
back side is solid veneer, by that I mean
the slots are closed in. I got this idea from a Manuel Bellido (sp?)
flamenco with mechanical tuners instead of friction pegs. It gives the
head a lot more stiffness.

The bracing is very similar to a Fred rich, fans and all. The bridge
is plum wood, the wood used for lute bridges, it's much lighter than
rosewood and gives the guitar a quicker response.

The most interesting feature is the rose. It really helps lower the
air cavity pitch and does wonderful things to both the bass and treble.
Torres used this same idea otherwise known as a Tornovoz which does
basically the same thing as a the lute rose. The smaller the soundhole
the lower the air resonance. I'm not sure of the ascetics of a rose on
a guitar so I am designing a parchment type Tornovoz dyed black similar
to a baroque guitar multi deminional rose, that will go into the
soundhole and be less visible.
I don't like these guitars with soundports, I had a customer order one
once. I kicked and screamed but he insisted. so I made him one. I
measured the cavity resonance before and after the port..... the port
raised the cavity pitch 1 half step, the very opposite of what Torres
was trying to do. But this is another subject.

BTW, I'm not sure what is an arch guitar?

MT
Tashi
2006-05-10 01:20:47 UTC
Permalink
John,
Thanks a million we've been very frustrated trying to figure this
out. I'll hopfully have fixed by tomorrow.
MT
Tashi
2006-05-10 02:02:47 UTC
Permalink
I believe my wife just fixed the problem so everything should play
fine. Thanks again John!
The last peice is about 5 minutes long so the Dresden page might take
longer to download.
I have a Akai DR4 hard disk recorder.... I'm still trying to figure
this thing out, and for now can't splice, as a result
the passigalia drags some at the end as I was preoccuped by the thought
"I made it this far without a major screwup".
I'm working on the 1st cello suite and hope to put together a Cd of
Weiss 34, and Bach cello suite, which sounds
really nice in the d-minor tuning, if I do say so myself.
Let me know if there are any problems.
MT
John D. Rimmer
2006-05-10 03:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
I believe my wife just fixed the problem so everything should play
fine. Thanks again John!
The last peice is about 5 minutes long so the Dresden page might take
longer to download.
I have a Akai DR4 hard disk recorder.... I'm still trying to figure
this thing out, and for now can't splice, as a result
the passigalia drags some at the end as I was preoccuped by the thought
"I made it this far without a major screwup".
I'm working on the 1st cello suite and hope to put together a Cd of
Weiss 34, and Bach cello suite, which sounds
really nice in the d-minor tuning, if I do say so myself.
Let me know if there are any problems.
MT
Michael,

No problemo. I like the audio clips.

John
Che'
2006-05-09 17:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Michael Thames made a guitar for me some years ago. It has been one of
those " precious" guitar's I've owned. Michael, I'm getting ready to give
that guitar you made for me to a student..... I no longer play but that
guitar needs to go to someone who really needs it.

William David Jennings
Tashi
2006-05-09 18:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Jennings,
How nice to hear from you. Last time we spoke I think you advised me
to buy a computer, I took your advice!
Sorry to hear your not playing anymore. I ran into Chris Savino who
now works at Robertsons violins repairing violins.
He told me you were a phenomenal guitarist, one of the best he'd ever
heard!
I hope the guitar finds a good home, and thanks for the kind words!
All the best,
Michael
Che'
2006-05-09 18:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Mr. Jennings,
How nice to hear from you. Last time we spoke I think you advised me
to buy a computer, I took your advice!
Sorry to hear your not playing anymore. I ran into Chris Savino who
now works at Robertsons violins repairing violins.
He told me you were a phenomenal guitarist, one of the best he'd ever
heard!
I hope the guitar finds a good home, and thanks for the kind words!
All the best,
Michael
Che'
2006-05-09 19:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Mr. Jennings,
How nice to hear from you. Last time we spoke I think you advised me
to buy a computer, I took your advice!> Sorry to hear your not playing
anymore. <
Nothing to be sorry about Hombre. I finished on my own terms.....and
Sisyphus Shrugged.
Post by Tashi
I ran into Chris Savino who now works at Robertsons violins repairing
violins. He told me you were a phenomenal guitarist, one of the best he'd
ever
heard! I hope the guitar finds a good home, and thanks for the kind
words!<
Chris is a very talented maker. It was a pleasure showing Chris what he
made could do. The guitar I bought from Chris had been in his shop for a
year and passed by. I guess he told you the rest of the story. I own
guitars made by both of you... The Savino is an aggressive bitch as silky
fast as I've ever found. Your guitar is a sweetheart and sooo sensitive you
can rip the heart out of a fence post!

What's more, you guys are both great to work with.

Say Hi! to Chris for me when you see him next and good luck with those new
guitars.

Che' david
Post by Tashi
All the best,
Michael
Nick Roche
2006-05-09 18:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che'
Michael Thames made a guitar for me some years ago. It has been one of
those " precious" guitar's I've owned. Michael, I'm getting ready to give
that guitar you made for me to a student..... I no longer play but that
guitar needs to go to someone who really needs it.
William David Jennings
I guess it started life here!

http://tinyurl.com/zdkjk
Che'
2006-05-09 19:23:40 UTC
Permalink
a moment of apparent benificence:<
You mean " Beneficence " Yes, Michael Thames and Chris Savino both reflect
the spirit of the guitar. I am often disgusted with what I read, see, and
hear , these days with the guitar.
Post by Che'
Michael Thames made a guitar for me some years ago. It has been one of
those " precious" guitar's I've owned. >
I guess it started life here!
http://tinyurl.com/zdkjk
That guitar was created and lived in Zen.

Che'
Nick Roche
2006-05-09 19:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tashi
Check this out ! the wave of the future?
http://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/sub13.htm
Michael Thames
So is this a wave from the past?

http://www.teller-gitarren.de/gitarren/hochaufloesend/901.html

Posture could well be a problem!
t***@jhu.edu
2006-05-09 22:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Roche
Post by Tashi
Check this out ! the wave of the future?
http://www.thamesclassicalguitars.com/sub13.htm
Michael Thames
So is this a wave from the past?
http://www.teller-gitarren.de/gitarren/hochaufloesend/901.html
Posture could well be a problem!
It's a zither. You lay it flat down on your lap. Put "The Third Man" on
your Netflix queue. Classic movie, and easily the best zither score
ever.
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