Discussion:
Bach and Mozart today
(too old to reply)
Lutemann
2010-07-22 15:16:29 UTC
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One wonders what the Bachs and the Mozarts of today are doing. Are
they in music and if so, where do they land. There must be more of
these super talents today than in the past because we have more
people. Of course Bach and Mozart were lucky in that they were in a
time where music composition was fairly standardized and well-defined.
It makes me think that great music geniuses might go into other
fields.
2cts
2010-07-22 15:25:33 UTC
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...
I think Bach would be doing 12tone music today and Mozart Rock.
Lutemann
2010-07-22 15:44:29 UTC
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Post by 2cts
...
I think Bach would be doing 12tone music today and Mozart Rock.
I don't think rock would interest Mozart and nobody does 12 tone music
anymore, do they? When I was in music school 40 years ago, 12 tone
music was passe - truly your grandfather's music.
2cts
2010-07-22 16:27:12 UTC
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Post by Lutemann
Post by 2cts
I think Bach would be doing 12tone music today and Mozart Rock.
I don't think rock would interest Mozart
He did that at his epoch as well (we used to call typical
parts of it 'ringing').
Post by Lutemann
and nobody does 12 tone music anymore, do they?
Perhaps a few are still few doing it. Bach surely would.
Post by Lutemann
When I was in music school 40 years ago, 12 tone
music was passe - truly your grandfather's music.
Sure, to get much meaning out of 12 tone music requires
you 2 absolute pitch ears of course.

But sure, you ARE right, man, I didn't really mean 12 tone
music alone but I meant originally atonal music.

Did you ever hear this, btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurrelieder ?
Now, thats not 12 tone technic but just a bit before, while and after...
Dicerous
2010-07-22 17:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2cts
Post by Lutemann
Post by 2cts
I think Bach would be doing 12tone music today and Mozart Rock.
I don't think rock would interest Mozart
He did that at his epoch as well (we used to call typical
parts of it 'ringing').
Post by Lutemann
and nobody does 12 tone music anymore, do they?  
Perhaps a few are still few doing it. Bach surely would.
Post by Lutemann
When I was in music school 40 years ago, 12 tone
music was passe - truly your grandfather's music.
Sure, to get much meaning out of 12 tone music requires
you 2 absolute pitch ears of course.
But sure, you ARE right, man, I didn't really mean 12 tone
music alone but I meant originally atonal music.
Did you ever hear this, btw.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurrelieder?
Now, thats not 12 tone technic but just a bit before, while and after...
I disagree, I feel that both would be recluses and both would be
completely fed up with academic charletonism.
Dicerous
2010-07-22 17:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dicerous
Post by 2cts
Post by Lutemann
Post by 2cts
I think Bach would be doing 12tone music today and Mozart Rock.
I don't think rock would interest Mozart
He did that at his epoch as well (we used to call typical
parts of it 'ringing').
Post by Lutemann
and nobody does 12 tone music anymore, do they?  
Perhaps a few are still few doing it. Bach surely would.
Post by Lutemann
When I was in music school 40 years ago, 12 tone
music was passe - truly your grandfather's music.
Sure, to get much meaning out of 12 tone music requires
you 2 absolute pitch ears of course.
But sure, you ARE right, man, I didn't really mean 12 tone
music alone but I meant originally atonal music.
Did you ever hear this, btw.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurrelieder?
Now, thats not 12 tone technic but just a bit before, while and after...
I disagree, I feel that both would be recluses and both would be
completely fed up with academic charletonism.
Bach,most likely working for a church somewhere...Mozart would be an
actor.
2cts
2010-07-22 17:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Bach, most likely working for a church somewhere...
Btw. Bach was 'not much' religious (because he was not an idiot)...
Dicerous
2010-07-22 17:55:29 UTC
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Post by 2cts
Bach, most likely working for a church somewhere...
Btw. Bach was 'not much' religious (because he was not an idiot)...
My mom's an anglican...I am too. Protestants will often claim an
aversion to outward expressions of religiosity. Bach was way ahead of
his time. Also, remember Bach's sentiments were viz the RCC which at
that point in time was a true aversion to ANYONE who claimed any sense
of inward spirtuality (e.g. the superstitions, sinecures, popery...)
Richard Jernigan
2010-07-22 22:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2cts
Btw. Bach was 'not much' religious (because he was not an idiot)...
Let's see: 278 sacred cantatas, four or five Passions (only two
survive), at least five masses (of which the B minor is one of his
greatest works), God only knows how many chorale preludes, the
supervision of the music in at least two churches in Leipzig, hundreds
of manuscripts ending in "Solo Dei Gloria"--no, 'not much' religious.

RNJ
2cts
2010-07-22 22:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by 2cts
Btw. Bach was 'not much' religious (because he was not an idiot)...
Let's see: 278 sacred cantatas, four or five Passions (only two
survive), at least five masses (of which the B minor is one of his
greatest works), God only knows how many chorale preludes, the
supervision of the music in at least two churches in Leipzig, hundreds
of manuscripts ending in "Solo Dei Gloria"--no, 'not much' religious.
Yes, there were just NOT any other (common) themes in that age.

They did not share all those ads, that determine the lives of ours...
Richard Jernigan
2010-07-23 14:55:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2cts
Post by Richard Jernigan
Post by 2cts
Btw. Bach was 'not much' religious (because he was not an idiot)...
Let's see: 278 sacred cantatas, four or five Passions (only two
survive), at least five masses (of which the B minor is one of his
greatest works), God only knows how many chorale preludes, the
supervision of the music in at least two churches in Leipzig, hundreds
of manuscripts ending in "Solo Dei Gloria"--no, 'not much' religious.
Yes, there were just NOT any other (common) themes in that age.
Really? Handel, Bach's exact contemporary wrote 42 operas, all on
secular themes. Later in his career, he did turn to oratorios, finding
that in London they paid better than opera. He charged admission.

Bach studied, respected and copied Vivaldi, who wrote over 500
concertos and 42 operas, yet Bach never ventured into the secular
music drama.

Telemann, with whom Bach was well acquainted, wrote 32 operas, as well
as numerous instrumental works. Telemann did write at least five
annual cycles of sacred cantatas, but his interests
clearly were on the secular side.

I recommend Christoph Wolff's "Johann Sebastian Bach, the Learned
Musician" for an in-depth artistic biography. It makes quite clear
Bach's deeply felt religion and how it colored his life and work.

I am not a particularly religious person myself. What I find
remarkable is the feeling of kinship and admiration inpired by Bach's
music, which sprang from a philosophical outlook very different from
my own.

RNJ
2cts
2010-07-23 15:27:19 UTC
Permalink
Bach never ventured into the secular music drama
He was happy that he could make a live at each stage and he
started with the organ which was clearly bound to churches.
I recommend Christoph Wolff's "Johann Sebastian Bach, the Learned
Musician" for an in-depth artistic biography. It makes quite clear
Bach's deeply felt religion and how it colored his life and work.
We have just a handful written pieces from him and very few trusted
statements about him. That's why whoever wrote a 'colorful' biography
is either a crackpot or he desperately needed the money from a book.
Unfortunately there is no biography, but just kind of novels on him.

It is 'conveyed', that, during the first (?) representation of
his St. Matthew's Passion, he left the church for some time to
get one or two portions of beer in ;)
Richard Jernigan
2010-07-23 15:51:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2cts
Bach never ventured into the secular music drama
He was happy that he could make a live at each stage and he
started with the organ which was clearly bound to churches.
I recommend Christoph Wolff's "Johann Sebastian Bach, the Learned
Musician" for an in-depth artistic biography. It makes quite clear
Bach's deeply felt religion and how it colored his life and work.
We have just a handful written pieces from him and very few trusted
statements about him. That's why whoever wrote a 'colorful' biography
is either a crackpot or he desperately needed the money from a book.
Unfortunately there is no biography, but just kind of novels on him.
It is 'conveyed', that, during the first (?) representation of
his St. Matthew's Passion, he left the church for some time to
get one or two portions of beer in ;)
Christoph Wolff is Adams University Professor of Music at Harvard. He
has also served as Chairman of the Music Department and Dean of the
Graduate School at Harvard. Wolff is also Director of the Bach Archive
at Leipzig. He is probably the most respected living Bach scholar.
With all his appointments he is definitely not "desperately in need of
money from a book", nor is he reputed to be a crackpot.

Wolff's books include Bach: Essays on His Life and Music (Cambridge,
1991), Mozart's Requiem (Berkeley, 1994), The New Bach Reader (New
York, 1998), and Johann Sebastian Bach: The Learned Musician, which
was a finalist for the Pulitzer prize in 2001. (New York, 2000). Wolff
(re)discovered a number of works by Bach (notably the Neumeister
Chorales) that were previously unknown or deemed lost.

The "New Bach Reader" is an assemblage of source documents on Bach. It
contains comtemporary accounts, writings on Bach from his sons and
their contemporaries, including some negative criticism of Bach's
music, and essays on Bach's music and reputation from later
generations.

"Johann Sebastian Bach, the Learned Musician" is a scholarly work with
a very extensive bibliography, densely footnoted.

RNJ
Andrew Schulman
2010-07-23 15:55:43 UTC
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Post by Richard Jernigan
The "New Bach Reader" is an assemblage of source documents on Bach. It
contains comtemporary accounts, writings on Bach from his sons and
their contemporaries, including some negative criticism of Bach's
music, and essays on Bach's music and reputation from later
generations.
Yes, very many trusted statements about him there!
Post by Richard Jernigan
"Johann Sebastian Bach, the Learned Musician" is a scholarly work with
a very extensive bibliography, densely footnoted.
Yes, a really great book.

Andrew
2cts
2010-07-23 16:14:29 UTC
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Post by Andrew Schulman
Yes, very many trusted statements about him there!
Nope. Thats the same kind of 'science' like a 'homöopathie'.
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Richard Jernigan
"Johann Sebastian Bach, the Learned Musician"
Bullshit, he was not even an academic.
2cts
2010-07-23 16:12:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Jernigan
Christoph Wolff is Adams University Professor of Music at Harvard
I know all that stuff...
Post by Richard Jernigan
"Johann Sebastian Bach, the Learned Musician"
Bullshit. Bach was not an academic, which made him problems:

http://www.dresden.de/en/02/press_service/press_texts_i