Discussion:
Debussy
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Charlie
2016-06-07 00:21:08 UTC
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Sorry Steve...I too picked this time to introduce a new topic. Hey All, check Steve's out and check mine out too.

Did Debussy play his own stuff? I've been listening to Pascal Rogé play his (Debussy's) "Image". Amazing.

Charlie
Matt Faunce
2016-06-07 00:47:30 UTC
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Post by Charlie
Sorry Steve...I too picked this time to introduce a new topic. Hey All,
check Steve's out and check mine out too.
Did Debussy play his own stuff? I've been listening to Pascal Rogé play
his (Debussy's) "Image". Amazing.
Charlie
Pascal Rogé is awesome!

(I don't know much about Debussy, but I do love his music.)
--
Matt
dsi1
2016-06-07 02:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Faunce
Post by Charlie
Sorry Steve...I too picked this time to introduce a new topic. Hey All,
check Steve's out and check mine out too.
Did Debussy play his own stuff? I've been listening to Pascal Rogé play
his (Debussy's) "Image". Amazing.
Charlie
Pascal Rogé is awesome!
(I don't know much about Debussy, but I do love his music.)
Who the heck doesn't love Debussy? His influence is now stronger than it
ever was. His music touches us deeply into our humanity.

“I am working on things that will be understood only by our
grandchildren in the 20th children.”





Learnwell
2016-06-07 04:00:37 UTC
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Post by Charlie
Did Debussy play his own stuff? I've been listening to Pascal Rogé play his (Debussy's) "Image". Amazing.
Charlie
Yes, poorly, as I remember the accounts.
Phlatpckr
2016-06-07 04:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Sorry Steve...I too picked this time to introduce a new topic. Hey
All, check Steve's out and check mine out too.
Did Debussy play his own stuff? I've been listening to Pascal Rogé
play his (Debussy's) "Image". Amazing.
Charlie
Yes Images is gorgeous music. Roge is a great Debussy player, I like
his Ravel even more.

For a more recent rendition here's Marc Andre-Hamelin playing the first
piece of Images "Reflets Dans L'eau" (Reflections in Water) He does a
really beautfiful job and the sound is great:



My other favorites in this music are Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli and
Alexis Weissenberg both on Deautsche Grammophon. Here's a video of
Michelangeli in his youth playing Images I & II, unfortunately the
sound on the video is rough but you get to see what an elegant and
masterful player he was.



A very exciting picturesque piece is L'isle Joyeuse - Here played
mastefully with great power by Maurizio Pollini, you can follow along
with the score as well. The climactic section beginning at 4:54 is one
of the greatest celebratory passages in all of classical music.



Yes Debussy lived into the age of recording but he only left a small
number of piano rolls made possible by a reproducing piano made by
Welte-Mignon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welte-Mignon

It's hard to say if it truly captures what Debussy really sounded like
but it's the closest thing we have. Here's a Debussy plays Debussy
piano roll of La soiree dans grenade which is quoted by Manuel de Falla
in his only solo guitar piece the Homenaje Le Tombeau of Debussy with
its sensuous habanera rhythm.



The Debussy Violin Sonata is a real beauty as well -


Andrew Schulman
2016-06-07 04:56:29 UTC
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Post by Phlatpckr
It's hard to say if it truly captures what Debussy really sounded like
but it's the closest thing we have. Here's a Debussy plays Debussy
piano roll of La soiree dans grenade which is quoted by Manuel de Falla
in his only solo guitar piece the Homenaje Le Tombeau of Debussy with
its sensuous habanera rhythm.
IIRC, Debussy was an important influence on Villa-Lobos, who lived in Paris for a number of years.

Andrew
Phlatpckr
2016-06-07 05:09:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Phlatpckr
It's hard to say if it truly captures what Debussy really sounded like
but it's the closest thing we have. Here's a Debussy plays Debussy
piano roll of La soiree dans grenade which is quoted by Manuel de Falla
in his only solo guitar piece the Homenaje Le Tombeau of Debussy with
its sensuous habanera rhythm.
IIRC, Debussy was an important influence on Villa-Lobos, who lived in
Paris for a number of years.
Andrew
Yes I definitely hear that!

The great Duke Ellington too was very influenced by Debussy, here's
Duke's beautiful piano solo Single Petal Of A Rose, similar to
Debussy's Reflets Dans L'eau


JMF
2016-06-07 06:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Phlatpckr
It's hard to say if it truly captures what Debussy really sounded like
but it's the closest thing we have. Here's a Debussy plays Debussy
piano roll of La soiree dans grenade which is quoted by Manuel de Falla
in his only solo guitar piece the Homenaje Le Tombeau of Debussy with
its sensuous habanera rhythm.
IIRC, Debussy was an important influence on Villa-Lobos, who lived in Paris for a number of years.
Andrew
Antonio Carlos Jobim also said he was influenced a lot by Debussy.
Andrew Schulman
2016-06-07 07:25:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMF
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Phlatpckr
It's hard to say if it truly captures what Debussy really sounded like
but it's the closest thing we have. Here's a Debussy plays Debussy
piano roll of La soiree dans grenade which is quoted by Manuel de Falla
in his only solo guitar piece the Homenaje Le Tombeau of Debussy with
its sensuous habanera rhythm.
IIRC, Debussy was an important influence on Villa-Lobos, who lived in Paris for a number of years.
Andrew
Antonio Carlos Jobim also said he was influenced a lot by Debussy.
Debussy - harmony/colors, the Brazilians, same and add samba rhythms with Jobim et al and you get the "new beat", bossa nova.

Andrew
Charlie
2016-06-08 22:05:20 UTC
Permalink
Andrew,

Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because I do not agree with you, but because I am not that familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word for it, I can't really make the connection.

Charlie
Phlatpckr
2016-06-09 02:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because I do
not agree with you, but because I am not that familiar with Jobim's
stuff. While I will take your word for it, I can't really make the
connection.
Charlie
Well Charlie I think even if you knew Jobim's tunes you wouldn't be
able to make the connection between him and Debussy directly and easily
because it's only in a general sense of Bossa Nova being related to
jazz and that jazz music uses the harmonies of Debussy and Ravel. And
vice-versa actually, Ravel was very influenced by American jazz and
Gershwin and actually incorporated a Blues of sorts as the middle
section of his beautiful violin sonata.



When I think of Jobim's tunes I consider him a composer drawing on The
Great American Songbook of Cole Porter, Gershwin, Kern, Arlen, Van
Heusen etc.. as well as the lyrical jazz tunes played by the Duke
Ellington Orchestra and other great jazz artists. As a young man Jobim
did countless night gigs playing piano in bands in various Rio
nightclubs where jazz was very popular in the late 1940's early 50's.
So he knew how to play standards very well. His own tunes take these
sophisticated harmonies and chordal vocabulary of standards and build
upon them. That's definitely one of the main reasons why jazz musicians
love his tunes so much and play them all the time.

As an example let's take one of his most famous tunes, Chega de Saudade
(in English "No More Blues") If you listen closely to the B section of
the song which goes into the Major, the chord progression for 16 bars
is exactly that of "When You Wish Upon A Star" by Leigh Harline (Ned
Washington wrote the lyrics) You can hear it yourself in this original
Jobim instrumental of the Chega de Saudade song starting at 1:07 in
this video. Listen to it a few times and then sing the melody to When
You Wish Upon A Star slowly over the music starting on the note A -
you'll see it fits perfectly! The chord progression repeats at 2:59
again too.



Another tune that utilizes the chord progression of a standard is his
most famous one, The Girl From Ipanema - This one takes the chord
progression of Duke Ellington's/Billy Strayhorn's Take The A Train.
Here's Jobim himself singing the song by the piano in an all-star
tribute concert from the 90's - at 2:43 in the video Jobim sings the
melody to Take The A Train right over the band and Jon Hendricks who's
doing a scat improv over the tune, it's a very amusing song-quoting
moment!



Another song that uses a Take The A Train progression is So Danco Samba
- actually here the A section of the song uses the progression from A
Train and in the B section it takes the progression from the bridge of
Satin Doll, another famous Ellington hit.






Other tunes with more complex applications of Standards Harmony are
Wave which is secretly a blues with added chords




and One Note Samba which is based on the chord progression to
Gershwin's I Got Rhythm - jazzers call this Rhythm Changes.



Please let me know if you were able to make the musical connections
between Jobim tunes and Standards I just pointed out.



Phlatpckr
Andrew Schulman
2016-06-09 02:41:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phlatpckr
Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because I do
not agree with you, but because I am not that familiar with Jobim's
stuff. While I will take your word for it, I can't really make the
connection.
Charlie
Well Charlie I think even if you knew Jobim's tunes you wouldn't be
able to make the connection between him and Debussy directly and easily
because it's only in a general sense of Bossa Nova being related to
jazz and that jazz music uses the harmonies of Debussy and Ravel. And
vice-versa actually, Ravel was very influenced by American jazz and
Gershwin and actually incorporated a Blues of sorts as the middle
section of his beautiful violin sonata.
http://youtu.be/rvadPqgZc2A
When I think of Jobim's tunes I consider him a composer drawing on The
Great American Songbook of Cole Porter, Gershwin, Kern, Arlen, Van
Heusen etc.. as well as the lyrical jazz tunes played by the Duke
Ellington Orchestra and other great jazz artists. As a young man Jobim
did countless night gigs playing piano in bands in various Rio
nightclubs where jazz was very popular in the late 1940's early 50's.
So he knew how to play standards very well. His own tunes take these
sophisticated harmonies and chordal vocabulary of standards and build
upon them. That's definitely one of the main reasons why jazz musicians
love his tunes so much and play them all the time.
As an example let's take one of his most famous tunes, Chega de Saudade
(in English "No More Blues") If you listen closely to the B section of
the song which goes into the Major, the chord progression for 16 bars
is exactly that of "When You Wish Upon A Star" by Leigh Harline (Ned
Washington wrote the lyrics) You can hear it yourself in this original
Jobim instrumental of the Chega de Saudade song starting at 1:07 in
this video. Listen to it a few times and then sing the melody to When
You Wish Upon A Star slowly over the music starting on the note A -
you'll see it fits perfectly! The chord progression repeats at 2:59
again too.
http://youtu.be/CDprvgxr_b0
Another tune that utilizes the chord progression of a standard is his
most famous one, The Girl From Ipanema - This one takes the chord
progression of Duke Ellington's/Billy Strayhorn's Take The A Train.
Here's Jobim himself singing the song by the piano in an all-star
tribute concert from the 90's - at 2:43 in the video Jobim sings the
melody to Take The A Train right over the band and Jon Hendricks who's
doing a scat improv over the tune, it's a very amusing song-quoting
moment!
http://youtu.be/pUdnWMaysJs
Another song that uses a Take The A Train progression is So Danco Samba
- actually here the A section of the song uses the progression from A
Train and in the B section it takes the progression from the bridge of
Satin Doll, another famous Ellington hit.
http://youtu.be/qnpj1rDz4M4
http://youtu.be/AVk-9LmaM8c
Other tunes with more complex applications of Standards Harmony are
Wave which is secretly a blues with added chords
http://youtu.be/F016NbHwszE
and One Note Samba which is based on the chord progression to
Gershwin's I Got Rhythm - jazzers call this Rhythm Changes.
http://youtu.be/xmOKCqqTQuU
Please let me know if you were able to make the musical connections
between Jobim tunes and Standards I just pointed out.
Phlatpckr
Charlie, what he said!

A.
JMF
2016-06-09 09:08:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because
I do not agree with you, but because I am not that

familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word

for it, I can't really make the connection.
Post by Charlie
Charlie
For what it's worth, here's what Jobim said in a biography written by
his sister:

"Stravinsky, Debussy, Chopin, and Villa-Lobos were my masters. They paid
me in musical and spiritual cash ..."

- Jobim, Helena. Antonio Carlos Jobim: An Illuminated Man.
p***@gmail.com
2016-06-09 10:25:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie
Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because
I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.
Post by Charlie