Debussy

Post by Charlie
Sorry Steve...I too picked this time to introduce a new topic. Hey All,
check Steve's out and check mine out too.
Did Debussy play his own stuff? I've been listening to Pascal Rogé play
his (Debussy's) "Image". Amazing.
Charlie

Pascal Rogé is awesome!

(I don't know much about Debussy, but I do love his music.)

--
Matt

dsi1

2016-06-07 02:36:05 UTC

Post by Matt Faunce

Pascal Rogé is awesome!
(I don't know much about Debussy, but I do love his music.)

Who the heck doesn't love Debussy? His influence is now stronger than it
ever was. His music touches us deeply into our humanity.

“I am working on things that will be understood only by our
grandchildren in the 20th children.”

Learnwell

2016-06-07 04:00:37 UTC

Post by Charlie
Did Debussy play his own stuff? I've been listening to Pascal Rogé play his (Debussy's) "Image". Amazing.
Charlie

Yes, poorly, as I remember the accounts.

Phlatpckr

2016-06-07 04:41:37 UTC

Post by Charlie
Sorry Steve...I too picked this time to introduce a new topic. Hey
All, check Steve's out and check mine out too.
Did Debussy play his own stuff? I've been listening to Pascal Rogé
play his (Debussy's) "Image". Amazing.
Charlie

Yes Images is gorgeous music. Roge is a great Debussy player, I like
his Ravel even more.

For a more recent rendition here's Marc Andre-Hamelin playing the first
piece of Images "Reflets Dans L'eau" (Reflections in Water) He does a
really beautfiful job and the sound is great:

My other favorites in this music are Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli and
Alexis Weissenberg both on Deautsche Grammophon. Here's a video of
Michelangeli in his youth playing Images I & II, unfortunately the
sound on the video is rough but you get to see what an elegant and
masterful player he was.

A very exciting picturesque piece is L'isle Joyeuse - Here played
mastefully with great power by Maurizio Pollini, you can follow along
with the score as well. The climactic section beginning at 4:54 is one
of the greatest celebratory passages in all of classical music.

Yes Debussy lived into the age of recording but he only left a small
number of piano rolls made possible by a reproducing piano made by
Welte-Mignon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welte-Mignon

It's hard to say if it truly captures what Debussy really sounded like
but it's the closest thing we have. Here's a Debussy plays Debussy
piano roll of La soiree dans grenade which is quoted by Manuel de Falla
in his only solo guitar piece the Homenaje Le Tombeau of Debussy with
its sensuous habanera rhythm.

The Debussy Violin Sonata is a real beauty as well -

Andrew Schulman

2016-06-07 04:56:29 UTC

Post by Phlatpckr
It's hard to say if it truly captures what Debussy really sounded like
but it's the closest thing we have. Here's a Debussy plays Debussy
piano roll of La soiree dans grenade which is quoted by Manuel de Falla
in his only solo guitar piece the Homenaje Le Tombeau of Debussy with
its sensuous habanera rhythm.

IIRC, Debussy was an important influence on Villa-Lobos, who lived in Paris for a number of years.

Andrew

Phlatpckr

2016-06-07 05:09:51 UTC

IIRC, Debussy was an important influence on Villa-Lobos, who lived in
Paris for a number of years.
Andrew

Yes I definitely hear that!

The great Duke Ellington too was very influenced by Debussy, here's
Duke's beautiful piano solo Single Petal Of A Rose, similar to
Debussy's Reflets Dans L'eau

JMF

2016-06-07 06:57:18 UTC

IIRC, Debussy was an important influence on Villa-Lobos, who lived in Paris for a number of years.
Andrew

Antonio Carlos Jobim also said he was influenced a lot by Debussy.

Andrew Schulman

2016-06-07 07:25:01 UTC

Post by JMF

IIRC, Debussy was an important influence on Villa-Lobos, who lived in Paris for a number of years.
Andrew

Antonio Carlos Jobim also said he was influenced a lot by Debussy.

Debussy - harmony/colors, the Brazilians, same and add samba rhythms with Jobim et al and you get the "new beat", bossa nova.

Andrew

Charlie

2016-06-08 22:05:20 UTC

Andrew,

Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because I do not agree with you, but because I am not that familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word for it, I can't really make the connection.

Charlie

Phlatpckr

2016-06-09 02:20:23 UTC

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because I do
not agree with you, but because I am not that familiar with Jobim's
stuff. While I will take your word for it, I can't really make the
connection.
Charlie

When I think of Jobim's tunes I consider him a composer drawing on The
Great American Songbook of Cole Porter, Gershwin, Kern, Arlen, Van
Heusen etc.. as well as the lyrical jazz tunes played by the Duke
Ellington Orchestra and other great jazz artists. As a young man Jobim
did countless night gigs playing piano in bands in various Rio
nightclubs where jazz was very popular in the late 1940's early 50's.
So he knew how to play standards very well. His own tunes take these
sophisticated harmonies and chordal vocabulary of standards and build
upon them. That's definitely one of the main reasons why jazz musicians
love his tunes so much and play them all the time.

As an example let's take one of his most famous tunes, Chega de Saudade
(in English "No More Blues") If you listen closely to the B section of
the song which goes into the Major, the chord progression for 16 bars
is exactly that of "When You Wish Upon A Star" by Leigh Harline (Ned
Washington wrote the lyrics) You can hear it yourself in this original
Jobim instrumental of the Chega de Saudade song starting at 1:07 in
this video. Listen to it a few times and then sing the melody to When
You Wish Upon A Star slowly over the music starting on the note A -
you'll see it fits perfectly! The chord progression repeats at 2:59
again too.

Another tune that utilizes the chord progression of a standard is his
most famous one, The Girl From Ipanema - This one takes the chord
progression of Duke Ellington's/Billy Strayhorn's Take The A Train.
Here's Jobim himself singing the song by the piano in an all-star
tribute concert from the 90's - at 2:43 in the video Jobim sings the
melody to Take The A Train right over the band and Jon Hendricks who's
doing a scat improv over the tune, it's a very amusing song-quoting
moment!

Another song that uses a Take The A Train progression is So Danco Samba
- actually here the A section of the song uses the progression from A
Train and in the B section it takes the progression from the bridge of
Satin Doll, another famous Ellington hit.

Other tunes with more complex applications of Standards Harmony are
Wave which is secretly a blues with added chords

and One Note Samba which is based on the chord progression to
Gershwin's I Got Rhythm - jazzers call this Rhythm Changes.

Please let me know if you were able to make the musical connections
between Jobim tunes and Standards I just pointed out.

Phlatpckr

Andrew Schulman

2016-06-09 02:41:34 UTC

Post by Phlatpckr

Well Charlie I think even if you knew Jobim's tunes you wouldn't be
able to make the connection between him and Debussy directly and easily
because it's only in a general sense of Bossa Nova being related to
jazz and that jazz music uses the harmonies of Debussy and Ravel. And
vice-versa actually, Ravel was very influenced by American jazz and
Gershwin and actually incorporated a Blues of sorts as the middle
section of his beautiful violin sonata.
http://youtu.be/rvadPqgZc2A
When I think of Jobim's tunes I consider him a composer drawing on The
Great American Songbook of Cole Porter, Gershwin, Kern, Arlen, Van
Heusen etc.. as well as the lyrical jazz tunes played by the Duke
Ellington Orchestra and other great jazz artists. As a young man Jobim
did countless night gigs playing piano in bands in various Rio
nightclubs where jazz was very popular in the late 1940's early 50's.
So he knew how to play standards very well. His own tunes take these
sophisticated harmonies and chordal vocabulary of standards and build
upon them. That's definitely one of the main reasons why jazz musicians
love his tunes so much and play them all the time.
As an example let's take one of his most famous tunes, Chega de Saudade
(in English "No More Blues") If you listen closely to the B section of
the song which goes into the Major, the chord progression for 16 bars
is exactly that of "When You Wish Upon A Star" by Leigh Harline (Ned
Washington wrote the lyrics) You can hear it yourself in this original
Jobim instrumental of the Chega de Saudade song starting at 1:07 in
this video. Listen to it a few times and then sing the melody to When
You Wish Upon A Star slowly over the music starting on the note A -
you'll see it fits perfectly! The chord progression repeats at 2:59
again too.
http://youtu.be/CDprvgxr_b0
Another tune that utilizes the chord progression of a standard is his
most famous one, The Girl From Ipanema - This one takes the chord
progression of Duke Ellington's/Billy Strayhorn's Take The A Train.
Here's Jobim himself singing the song by the piano in an all-star
tribute concert from the 90's - at 2:43 in the video Jobim sings the
melody to Take The A Train right over the band and Jon Hendricks who's
doing a scat improv over the tune, it's a very amusing song-quoting
moment!
http://youtu.be/pUdnWMaysJs
Another song that uses a Take The A Train progression is So Danco Samba
- actually here the A section of the song uses the progression from A
Train and in the B section it takes the progression from the bridge of
Satin Doll, another famous Ellington hit.
http://youtu.be/qnpj1rDz4M4
http://youtu.be/AVk-9LmaM8c
Other tunes with more complex applications of Standards Harmony are
Wave which is secretly a blues with added chords
http://youtu.be/F016NbHwszE
and One Note Samba which is based on the chord progression to
Gershwin's I Got Rhythm - jazzers call this Rhythm Changes.
http://youtu.be/xmOKCqqTQuU
Please let me know if you were able to make the musical connections
between Jobim tunes and Standards I just pointed out.
Phlatpckr

Charlie, what he said!

A.

JMF

2016-06-09 09:08:03 UTC

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that

familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word

for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

For what it's worth, here's what Jobim said in a biography written by
his sister:

"Stravinsky, Debussy, Chopin, and Villa-Lobos were my masters. They paid
me in musical and spiritual cash ..."

- Jobim, Helena. Antonio Carlos Jobim: An Illuminated Man.

p***@gmail.com

2016-06-09 10:25:43 UTC

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

For what it's worth, here's what Jobim said in a biography written by
"Stravinsky, Debussy, Chopin, and Villa-Lobos were my masters. They paid
me in musical and spiritual cash ..."
- Jobim, Helena. Antonio Carlos Jobim: An Illuminated Man.

Well there's definitely a very clear Chopin connection I can make between his sad and wistful Prelude No. 4 Op.28 in E minor to Jobim's tragic bossa Insensatez (in English How Insensative). In the Chopin there's barely any lyrical melody to speak of; just a note in the right hand that goes up a step and then back down while underneath the left hand plays slow pulsing chords of changing harmonies that give the music interest. So too in How Insensitive the tune starts on a note that goes up a step and then down throughout most of the tune while underneath the accompanying chords played by a guitar or piano are playing a light bossa nova clave rhythm that changes harmonies every measure.

p***@gmail.com

2016-06-09 13:56:00 UTC

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

Here's some YouTube links of the music to illustrate my point(s):

The Chopin Prelude No.4 Op 28 in Em

and to compare here's the song Insensatez/How Insensitive played with Jobim on piano, Luiz Bonfa on guitar, Stan Getz on sax and the hauntingly beautiful vocal in Portugese by Bonfa's wife Maria Toledo. Literally one of bossa history's most perfectly recorded songs where you have the lightly pulsing bossa guitar accompaniment by Bonfa with his beautifully chosen chord voicings and Stan Getz's very memorable lyrical sax solo(s) and Jobim's sparse and memorable single-note RH piano solo too. Toledo's vocal is gorgeous; she was just as good bossa singer as Astrud Gilberto and even better IMO but sadly not as recognized

Another Jobim tune that uses the same compositional device as the Chopin Prelude is the cheerful Agua de Marco (Waters of March) which has a repeated 3 note motif throughout the song while the harmonies are constantly changing underneath it.

John Nguyen

2016-06-09 15:01:58 UTC

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

The Chopin Prelude No.4 Op 28 in Em
http://youtu.be/-Y6r1nHnLVo
and to compare here's the song Insensatez/How Insensitive played with Jobim on piano, Luiz Bonfa on guitar, Stan Getz on sax and the hauntingly beautiful vocal in Portugese by Bonfa's wife Maria Toledo. Literally one of bossa history's most perfectly recorded songs where you have the lightly pulsing bossa guitar accompaniment by Bonfa with his beautifully chosen chord voicings and Stan Getz's very memorable lyrical sax solo(s) and Jobim's sparse and memorable single-note RH piano solo too. Toledo's vocal is gorgeous; she was just as good bossa singer as Astrud Gilberto and even better IMO but sadly not as recognized
http://youtu.be/FiTjcM3_ZLM
Another Jobim tune that uses the same compositional device as the Chopin Prelude is the cheerful Agua de Marco (Waters of March) which has a repeated 3 note motif throughout the song while the harmonies are constantly changing underneath it.
http://youtu.be/jYLoxMtnUDE

Not to be contradictory with you points, but I find it's much harder, if not almost impossible for me, to make Jobim's connection back to Chopin Prelude No.4.
Cheers,

John

p***@gmail.com

2016-06-09 16:51:13 UTC

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

Not to be contradictory with you points, but I find it's much harder, if not almost impossible for me, to make Jobim's connection back to Chopin Prelude No.4.
Cheers,
John

Hi John, Listen to this and see if you hear the connection now :-)

p***@gmail.com

2016-06-09 17:10:07 UTC

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

Not to be contradictory with you points, but I find it's much harder, if not almost impossible for me, to make Jobim's connection back to Chopin Prelude No.4.
Cheers,
John

Hi John, Listen to this and see if you hear the connection now :-)
http://youtu.be/MWwG6crOFhc

This one is actually melds the two pieces together brilliantly like one of those mashups from the TV show Glee

p***@gmail.com

2016-06-09 18:12:42 UTC

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

Not to be contradictory with you points, but I find it's much harder, if not almost impossible for me, to make Jobim's connection back to Chopin Prelude No.4.
Cheers,
John

Hi John, Listen to this and see if you hear the connection now :-)
http://youtu.be/MWwG6crOFhc

Here's some more - glad I found these, I was going to put something on my Casio keyboard to show you but all these are much better than anything I would have come up with.
http://youtu.be/kreoUHI4WN8
This one is actually melds the two pieces together brilliantly like one of those mashups from the TV show Glee
http://youtu.be/SZxrepdRWEE

To sum up with one last example and apropos for this group here's a really nice classical guitar quartet arrangement of the Chopin/Jobim

John Nguyen

2016-06-09 20:02:05 UTC

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

Not to be contradictory with you points, but I find it's much harder, if not almost impossible for me, to make Jobim's connection back to Chopin Prelude No.4.
Cheers,
John

Hi John, Listen to this and see if you hear the connection now :-)
http://youtu.be/MWwG6crOFhc

Here's another vocal arr. with just one singer. Notice how in this one and the one with the choral group the singers sing the melody to Jobim's How Insensitive
over the chord changes to Chopin's Prelude! Given the quote by Jobim's sister I don't think this is by accident.
http://youtu.be/mlI6b-if4z0
To sum up with one last example and apropos for this group here's a really nice classical guitar quartet arrangement of the Chopin/Jobim
http://youtu.be/QP-1w_SkZqw

Thanks! I think I can see the link between the Insensatez and the Chopin Prelude No. 4. It's the Agua de Marco that I have some problem with linking the two.
Cheers,

John

Phlatpckr

2016-06-10 04:37:56 UTC

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

For what it's worth, here's what Jobim said in a biography written by>
"Stravinsky, Debussy, Chopin, and Villa-Lobos were my masters. They
paid> > > > > > > me in musical and spiritual cash ..."
- Jobim, Helena. Antonio Carlos Jobim: An Illuminated Man.

Well there's definitely a very clear Chopin connection I can make
between his sad and wistful Prelude No. 4 Op.28 in E minor to Jobim's
tragic bossa Insensatez (in English How Insensative). In the Chopin
there's barely any lyrical melody to speak of; just a note in the right
hand that goes up a step and then back down while underneath the left
hand plays slow pulsing chords of changing harmonies that give the
music interest. So too in How Insensitive the tune starts on a note
that goes up a step and then down throughout most of the tune while
underneath the accompanying chords played by a guitar or piano are
playing a light bossa nova clave rhythm that changes harmonies every
measure.

The Chopin Prelude No.4 Op 28 in Em
http://youtu.be/-Y6r1nHnLVo
and to compare here's the song Insensatez/How Insensitive played with
Jobim on piano, Luiz Bonfa on guitar, Stan Getz on sax and the
hauntingly beautiful vocal in Portugese by Bonfa's wife Maria Toledo.
Literally one of bossa history's most perfectly recorded songs where
you have the lightly pulsing bossa guitar accompaniment by Bonfa with
his beautifully chosen chord voicings and Stan Getz's very memorable
lyrical sax solo(s) and Jobim's sparse and memorable single-note RH
piano solo too. Toledo's vocal is gorgeous; she was just as good bossa
singer as Astrud Gilberto and even better IMO but sadly not as
recognized
http://youtu.be/FiTjcM3_ZLM
Another Jobim tune that uses the same compositional device as the
Chopin Prelude is the cheerful Agua de Marco (Waters of March) which
has a repeated 3 note motif throughout the song while the harmonies are
constantly changing underneath it.> > > > >> > > > >
http://youtu.be/jYLoxMtnUDE

Not to be contradictory with you points, but I find it's much harder,
if not almost impossible for me, to make Jobim's connection back to
Chopin Prelude No.4.
Cheers,
John

Hi John, Listen to this and see if you hear the connection now :-)
http://youtu.be/MWwG6crOFhc

Here's some more - glad I found these, I was going to put something on
my Casio keyboard to show you but all these are much better than
anything I would have come up with.
piano and harmonica arrangement:> >> >
http://youtu.be/kreoUHI4WN8
This one is actually melds the two pieces together brilliantly like one
of those mashups from the TV show Glee> >> >
http://youtu.be/SZxrepdRWEE

Here's another vocal arr. with just one singer. Notice how in this one
and the one with the choral group the singers sing the melody to
Jobim's How Insensitive
over the chord changes to Chopin's Prelude! Given the quote by Jobim's
sister I don't think this is by accident.
http://youtu.be/mlI6b-if4z0
To sum up with one last example and apropos for this group here's a
really nice classical guitar quartet arrangement of the Chopin/Jobim>>
http://youtu.be/QP-1w_SkZqw

Thanks! I think I can see the link between the Insensatez and the
Chopin Prelude No. 4. It's the Agua de Marco that I have some problem
with linking the two.
Cheers,
John

By the way have you seen Benjamin Zander's TED talk "The Transformative
Power of Classical Music"?

Here's the YouTube link, at 6:47 in the video (I suggest watching it
from the beginning if you have the time) he plays the Chopin Prelude #4
and talks about its harmony among other things - it's a very inspiring
and moving lecture and it really affirmed for me why I love classical
music so much. Enjoy!

p***@gmail.com

2016-06-10 15:33:38 UTC

Post by Phlatpckr

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

Well there's definitely a very clear Chopin connection I can make
between his sad and wistful Prelude No. 4 Op.28 in E minor to Jobim's
tragic bossa Insensatez (in English How Insensative). In the Chopin
there's barely any lyrical melody to speak of; just a note in the right
hand that goes up a step and then back down while underneath the left
hand plays slow pulsing chords of changing harmonies that give the
music interest. So too in How Insensitive the tune starts on a note
that goes up a step and then down throughout most of the tune while
underneath the accompanying chords played by a guitar or piano are
playing a light bossa nova clave rhythm that changes harmonies every
measure.

The Chopin Prelude No.4 Op 28 in Em
http://youtu.be/-Y6r1nHnLVo
and to compare here's the song Insensatez/How Insensitive played with
Jobim on piano, Luiz Bonfa on guitar, Stan Getz on sax and the
hauntingly beautiful vocal in Portugese by Bonfa's wife Maria Toledo.
Literally one of bossa history's most perfectly recorded songs where
you have the lightly pulsing bossa guitar accompaniment by Bonfa with
his beautifully chosen chord voicings and Stan Getz's very memorable
lyrical sax solo(s) and Jobim's sparse and memorable single-note RH
piano solo too. Toledo's vocal is gorgeous; she was just as good bossa
singer as Astrud Gilberto and even better IMO but sadly not as
recognized
http://youtu.be/FiTjcM3_ZLM
Another Jobim tune that uses the same compositional device as the
Chopin Prelude is the cheerful Agua de Marco (Waters of March) which
has a repeated 3 note motif throughout the song while the harmonies are
constantly changing underneath it.> > > > >> > > > >
http://youtu.be/jYLoxMtnUDE

Not to be contradictory with you points, but I find it's much harder,
if not almost impossible for me, to make Jobim's connection back to
Chopin Prelude No.4.
Cheers,
John

Hi John, Listen to this and see if you hear the connection now :-)
http://youtu.be/MWwG6crOFhc

Here's another vocal arr. with just one singer. Notice how in this one
and the one with the choral group the singers sing the melody to
Jobim's How Insensitive
over the chord changes to Chopin's Prelude! Given the quote by Jobim's
sister I don't think this is by accident.
http://youtu.be/mlI6b-if4z0
To sum up with one last example and apropos for this group here's a
really nice classical guitar quartet arrangement of the Chopin/Jobim>>
http://youtu.be/QP-1w_SkZqw

Thanks! I think I can see the link between the Insensatez and the
Chopin Prelude No. 4. It's the Agua de Marco that I have some problem
with linking the two.
Cheers,
John

Hi John, Aguas de Marco/Waters Of March is related to the Chopin in
conception and composing technique only - basically in the Chopin
Prelude there's not much of a melody line to speak of, it's a rather
boring melody by itself. All the musical interest comes from the
beautiful harmony of chords that are underneath and supporting/coloring
the melody line. So too in Aguas de Marco there's a melody that's more
of a constantly repeated motif and the shifting and changing chords
underneath it are what make the song interesting and colorful from a
musical standpoint (the lyrics are great too). Here's two solo piano
versions of Waters Of March illustrating my point about the repeated
motive(s) and colorful harmony underneath
http://youtu.be/coBEftIDYLo
http://youtu.be/KLXisIbX2Ic
By the way have you seen Benjamin Zander's TED talk "The Transformative
Power of Classical Music"?
Here's the YouTube link, at 6:47 in the video (I suggest watching it
from the beginning if you have the time) he plays the Chopin Prelude #4
and talks about its harmony among other things - it's a very inspiring
and moving lecture and it really affirmed for me why I love classical
music so much. Enjoy!
http://youtu.be/r9LCwI5iErE

You know I was thinking that there's a Jobim song that would better explain this type of concept with the harmony being more important than the melody and that would be One Note Samba which like the songs says in English "This is just a little built upon a single note" Obviously the melody in the A section is just one note repeated in a catchy syncopated rhythm and the musical interest comes from the harmony and chords beneath (of course the bossa rhythm too) that are supporting and coloring it.

One Note Samba instrumental

Jobim and singers in Portugese

Sinatra & Jobim in English

John Nguyen

2016-06-11 03:31:47 UTC

Post by Phlatpckr

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

Well there's definitely a very clear Chopin connection I can make
between his sad and wistful Prelude No. 4 Op.28 in E minor to Jobim's
tragic bossa Insensatez (in English How Insensative). In the Chopin
there's barely any lyrical melody to speak of; just a note in the right
hand that goes up a step and then back down while underneath the left
hand plays slow pulsing chords of changing harmonies that give the
music interest. So too in How Insensitive the tune starts on a note
that goes up a step and then down throughout most of the tune while
underneath the accompanying chords played by a guitar or piano are
playing a light bossa nova clave rhythm that changes harmonies every
measure.

The Chopin Prelude No.4 Op 28 in Em
http://youtu.be/-Y6r1nHnLVo
and to compare here's the song Insensatez/How Insensitive played with
Jobim on piano, Luiz Bonfa on guitar, Stan Getz on sax and the
hauntingly beautiful vocal in Portugese by Bonfa's wife Maria Toledo.
Literally one of bossa history's most perfectly recorded songs where
you have the lightly pulsing bossa guitar accompaniment by Bonfa with
his beautifully chosen chord voicings and Stan Getz's very memorable
lyrical sax solo(s) and Jobim's sparse and memorable single-note RH
piano solo too. Toledo's vocal is gorgeous; she was just as good bossa
singer as Astrud Gilberto and even better IMO but sadly not as
recognized
http://youtu.be/FiTjcM3_ZLM
Another Jobim tune that uses the same compositional device as the
Chopin Prelude is the cheerful Agua de Marco (Waters of March) which
has a repeated 3 note motif throughout the song while the harmonies are
constantly changing underneath it.> > > > >> > > > >
http://youtu.be/jYLoxMtnUDE

Not to be contradictory with you points, but I find it's much harder,
if not almost impossible for me, to make Jobim's connection back to
Chopin Prelude No.4.
Cheers,
John

Hi John, Listen to this and see if you hear the connection now :-)
http://youtu.be/MWwG6crOFhc

Here's another vocal arr. with just one singer. Notice how in this one
and the one with the choral group the singers sing the melody to
Jobim's How Insensitive
over the chord changes to Chopin's Prelude! Given the quote by Jobim's
sister I don't think this is by accident.
http://youtu.be/mlI6b-if4z0
To sum up with one last example and apropos for this group here's a
really nice classical guitar quartet arrangement of the Chopin/Jobim>>
http://youtu.be/QP-1w_SkZqw

Thanks! I think I can see the link between the Insensatez and the
Chopin Prelude No. 4. It's the Agua de Marco that I have some problem
with linking the two.
Cheers,
John

Got it. I was trying to find the resemblance of the melodic lines, but I see your points in the conceptual aspect of the composition.

I did watch the TED talk on the Chopin Em prelude. It's one of my favorites.

Cheers,

John

Phlatpckr

2016-06-10 05:14:53 UTC

Post by Charlie
Andrew,
Really? I can't make the connection. The reason is not because

I do not agree with you, but because I am not that
familiar with Jobim's stuff. While I will take your word
for it, I can't really make the connection.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

For what it's worth, here's what Jobim said in a biography written by
"Stravinsky, Debussy, Chopin, and Villa-Lobos were my masters. They
paid me in musical and spiritual cash ..."
- Jobim, Helena. Antonio Carlos Jobim: An Illuminated Man.

This quote made me think of strongly recommending those here who may be
interested in hearing the orchestral/classical side of Jobim to give a
good listen to his album 1976 album Urubu with brilliant arrangements
by Claus Ogerman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urubu_(album)

The entire album is uploaded on YouTube very generously by Warner Music
Group now.

In particular these three pieces from the album really show their
Villa-Lobos, Debussy and Stravinsky influences:

Saudade De Brasil

http://tinyurl.com/gsw44hu

Arquitetura De Morar (Architecture To Live)

http://tinyurl.com/z2x5eza

O Homem (Man)

http://tinyurl.com/hr6sjzg

And to show genius runs in the family there's a stunningly beautiful
Valse (waltz) by Jobim's son Paulo on the album as well

http://tinyurl.com/hcjsrp3

All this is absolutely gorgeous music and it makes for great late night
listening. Hope you all enjoy.

John Nguyen

2016-06-07 04:52:00 UTC

Post by Charlie
Sorry Steve...I too picked this time to introduce a new topic. Hey All, check Steve's out and check mine out too.
Did Debussy play his own stuff? I've been listening to Pascal Rogé play his (Debussy's) "Image". Amazing.
Charlie

http://www.forte-piano-pianissimo.com/claudedebussy.html

Quote-
But what is little appreciated is the effect Debussy had on piano playing. He was a marvelous pianist and could very well have had a successful career as a concert pianist had he not chosen to devote his genius to composition. Harold Schonberg wrote in his book The Great Pianists, "(Debussy) added more to the piano than any composer since Chopin: new theories about pedaling, new ideas about sonority, a completely new concept of figuration and layout."
Unquote-

Seemed to be a very competent pianist judging by the old recordings.
Cheers,

John

Charlie

2016-06-07 11:34:50 UTC

John,

I was wondering if he could play his own music. "Images" sounds improvised to my amateur ears. Imagine noodling with these pieces and then writing down a finished score. What a lot of work! I would think that Debussy would have to be able to at least struggle through his own score to get it down on paper so well.

I've been doing my yoga to these tunes. I've been using Olivier Messiaen ‒ Preludes pour Piano, too. They are in the same vein. This music makes relaxing into a stretch easy, haha.

Charlie

John Nguyen

2016-06-07 12:36:22 UTC

Post by Charlie
John,
I was wondering if he could play his own music. "Images" sounds improvised to my amateur ears. Imagine noodling with these pieces and then writing down a finished score. What a lot of work! I would think that Debussy would have to be able to at least struggle through his own score to get it down on paper so well.
I've been doing my yoga to these tunes. I've been using Olivier Messiaen ‒ Preludes pour Piano, too. They are in the same vein. This music makes relaxing into a stretch easy, haha.
http://youtu.be/z2pwTP7g7xE
Charlie

Charlie,

Debussy's music is not extremely difficult on the piano, perhaps when compared to Ravel's, Rachmaninoff's, or Scrabin's. So think he would be able to play his music well. Some of the youtube links are Debussy's own playing of his music recorded on piano roll, and to my ears his playing is nothing to sneer at - very good I may say.
Cheers,

John

dsi1

2016-06-10 09:41:19 UTC

You amateur ears would be correct about an improvisational/flowing quality of Debussy's music. The effect was purely intentional. His music was a reaction to the literalism and formality of the music of the period and the sonic representation to the impressionism art movement. If one finds the music open to many interpretations, well that's purely intentional too.

Steve Freides

2016-06-08 11:55:29 UTC

Harold Schonberg wrote in his book The Great Pianists ...

This reminds me - I bought this book a month or more ago but haven't
started reading it yet. Time to fix that.

-S-

David Raleigh Arnold

2016-06-09 21:48:32 UTC

On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 17:21:08 -0700 (PDT)

Post by Charlie
Sorry Steve...I too picked this time to introduce

a new topic. Hey All, check Steve's out and check
mine out too.

Post by Charlie
Did Debussy play his own stuff? I've been listening

to Pascal Rogé play his (Debussy's) "Image". Amazing.

Post by Charlie
Charlie

I just heard another orchestration of "Clair de Lune".
Previously I heard one of Ravel. If Ravel couldn't
orchestrate it decently, no one could. Hearing another
failed attempt confirmed my opinion.

There was _no such thing_ as piano music before
Debussy.

I'm sure many others have expressed the same
sentiment, and if anyone can name names, I
wouldn't mind knowing.
Regards, Rale

Andrew Schulman

2016-06-09 21:53:50 UTC

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
There was _no such thing_ as piano music before
Debussy.

Obviously.

Andrew

David Raleigh Arnold

2016-06-10 19:28:34 UTC

On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 14:53:50 -0700 (PDT)

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
There was _no such thing_ as piano music before
Debussy.

ObviouslY.

OTOH I listened to a vinyl back in the day which
featured European composers attempts to write
ragtime, including Debussy. The only one who
really got it was Tansman. CB wasn't perfect,
but he perfectly understood the piano.
Regards, Rale

p***@gmail.com

2016-06-10 19:48:42 UTC

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 14:53:50 -0700 (PDT)

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
There was _no such thing_ as piano music before
Debussy.

ObviouslY.

Which ragtime piece(s) by Debussy? If you mean Golliwog's Cakewalk from the Children's Corner Suite which is a precursor to ragtime or Minstrels which is one of the Preludes, those are both masterpieces, whether they are ragtime or not.

I didn't find any Tansman ragtime pieces on YT but I did find this nice blues played by pianist Walter Gieseking (who btw was one of the great Debussy interpreters). Apparently Tansman wrote his jazz pieces under the pseudonym Stan Alson

and here's Three Preludes in Blues Form by Tansman played by pianist Margaret Fingerhut. Lovely laid back sweet blues reminiscent of Gershwin a bit.

Andrew Schulman

2016-06-10 20:48:48 UTC

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
There was _no such thing_ as piano music before
Debussy.

Obviously.
Andrew

Oh wait, I just did some research and found out there was some guy named Beethoven who apparently wrote some piano music and IIRC lived before Debussy. There might have been one or two others as well.

Andrew

Phlatpckr

2016-06-11 00:11:47 UTC

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
There was _no such thing_ as piano music before
Debussy.

Obviously.
Andrew

Oh wait, I just did some research and found out there was some guy
named Beethoven who apparently wrote some piano music and IIRC lived
before Debussy. There might have been one or two others as well.
Andrew

Yes of course Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Faure,
Liszt, Saint-Saens etc. but daveA also said this

"I'm sure many others have expressed the same
sentiment, and if anyone can name names, I
wouldn't mind knowing."

So I googled daveA's phrase

"There was no such thing as piano music before Debussy"

to see if indeed this was something musicians have said in the past
about Debussy and the only thing that came up was the exact same quote
by daveA from a thread here in RMCG 3 years ago which was about a
virtuosic solo guitar version of Debussy's Clair de Lune

http://rec.music.classical.guitar.narkive.com/sk8u3dvy/c-debussy-clair-de-lune-solo

When John Nguyen read DRA's pronouncement he objected, saying DRA was
arrogant. But DRA responded and said this

"I don't get it. Arrogant for an opinion? If it were libellous I could
understand it, but why insult me for the opinion that all of
Beethoven's piano music, for example, can be orchestrated at least
passably but some of Debussy's cannot, ever? This is not a negative
criticism of anyone, and it has to do with listening to the music, not
playing any particular instrument."

So basically what I can deduce and infer from DRA's reasoning is that
pure piano music cannot be orchestrated or arranged for any other
instrument(s) well other than the piano. He says ALL of Beethoven's
piano output can be orchestrated competently and passably so the fact
that it can sound good or at least OK on other instruments disqualifies
it from being pure piano music. Only with Debussy and a piece like
Clair de Lune where according to DRA it cannot be arranged for
orchestra successully even by a genius like Ravel do we first encounter
pure absolute piano music because it can only sound good and have the
true intended sonic texture on the piano.

Well personally I don't think ALL of Beethoven's piano output could be
orchestrated passably, there are more than a few sonatas that would
sound terrible orchestrated like the Waldstein, Les Adieux, Tempest,
Appasionata, etc. Even the Moonlight would sound bad too because the
sound of these pieces is so part of the piano's personality, timbre and
color and nothing else. I actually found an arr. of the Hammerklavier
for orchestra here on YouTube , I can't listen to it at all, there's no
question Beethoven wrote it for the sound the piano produces and the
unique instrumental character it has.

But you know what, let's go with it and say Beethoven's music is much
like J.S. Bach's where the music exists as a perfect absolute entity
regardless of what instruments are playing it. The music is so great
you can play it on anything from a kazoo to a full orchestra and sound
good.

But there are other composers that came after Beethoven and still
BEFORE Debussy that wrote piano music that can NEVER be orchestrated as
well. For instance much of Chopin's piano music wouldn't sound good
orchestrated, because the melodies, harmonies and textures Chopin
writes are exclusive to the piano alone. I can think of the beautiful
4th Ballade in F minor, the Berceuse, the Barcarolle, the Fantasie in
Fm, and the 4 Scherzi that would just lose everything if they were
orchestrated.

Chopin is considered the poet of the piano, his piano music belongs on
the piano and nowhere else. Like Mozart, Chopin taught the piano how to
sing with his long and lyrical bel canto cantabile melodies, Sure a
couple of the Nocturnes and Waltzes sound nice in various arrangements
but not the entire piano works, that's ridiculous.

How about other composers and their piano works like Schumann's
Fantasie in C Op.17, or his Kreisleriana, or Liszt's Au bord d'une
source? I mean these are pure piano pieces written before Debussy came
along so I'm not sure if I fully understand daveA's reasoning behind
his Debussy axiom.

Here's a video of Liszt's lovely flowing-like-water "Au bord d'une
source" (Beside a Spring)

Andrew Schulman

2016-06-11 01:58:16 UTC

...I'm not sure if I fully understand daveA's reasoning behind
his Debussy axiom.

Two things: First - No one understands the reasoning behind daveA's axioms except for daveA. Second - could it be you're drinking too many caffeinated beverages on a daily basis?

Andrew

Phlatpckr

2016-06-11 02:41:05 UTC

...I'm not sure if I fully understand daveA's reasoning behind
his Debussy axiom.

Two things: First - No one understands the reasoning behind daveA's
axioms except for daveA. Second - could it be you're drinking too many
caffeinated beverages on a daily basis?
Andrew

Lol no caffeinated beverages! I just enjoy talking about and sharing my
knowledge of music with people. Unfortunately besides you and a few
others I'm not getting much of a response and there's no discussion
happening and it takes me a long time to write these posts. So I'm
probably not going to last here much longer. I just wanted to take a
break from posting on the Delcamp Guitar Forum. You can use a nom de
plume over there and make snide comments about videos from well
established artists and even trash really famous icon guitarists like
Segovia, Williams, Yamashita and Fisk no problem lol (There are very
long heated threads in the Delcamp archives about each one of those).
As long as you don't post a link to copyrighted material on YouTube, or
a link to Amazon or eBay, or insult and get into a tizzy with a fellow
Delcamp member it's OK. I've been there almost a decade now and haven't
had any major problems or been banned yet though a bunch of my posts go
missing from time to time...People are generally very appreciative over
there when you share your knowledge and I've made some great internet
friends who have shared lots of great music both scores and recordings
with me. Anyway it's a very different vibe here but still fun hanging
out for awhile. Please check out my AC Jobim and João Gilberto
recording recommendations in case you don't already know them. Thanks
for the hospitality, much appreciated!

Andrew Schulman

2016-06-11 03:13:56 UTC

Post by Phlatpckr
Lol no caffeinated beverages! I just enjoy talking about and sharing my
knowledge of music with people. Unfortunately besides you and a few
others I'm not getting much of a response and there's no discussion
happening and it takes me a long time to write these posts.

My guess is that there are a lot of lurkers who appreciate real music threads but don't like to post because people like David of Hawaii and Wollybird will outshine them in many ways and it's too upsetting.

Anyway, you do a very good service by providing so much solid material, keep doing it when you feel in the mood.

Andrew

dsi1

2016-06-11 07:05:00 UTC

My guess is that there are a lot of lurkers who appreciate real music threads but don't like to post because people like David of Hawaii and Wollybird will outshine them in many ways and it's too upsetting.
Anyway, you do a very good service by providing so much solid material, keep doing it when you feel in the mood.

Beats the heck out of me how posting just the facts in language that the average 14 year old could understand would be upsetting to anybody. Most of the time, I have no idea what the hell you mugs are talking about. Hopefully, somebody does.

Speaking of which, I ordered some books by one of my college professors. He lays the facts down in language a 9 year old should be able to appreciate and understand. It's a most remarkable thing to be able to do that!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0849762278/

Post by Andrew Schulman
http://youtu.be/bR3K5uB-wMA
Andrew

wollybird

2016-06-13 13:56:59 UTC

My guess is that there are a lot of lurkers who appreciate real music threads but don't like to post because people like David of Hawaii and Wollybird will outshine them in many ways and it's too upsetting.
Anyway, you do a very good service by providing so much solid material, keep doing it when you feel in the mood.
http://youtu.be/bR3K5uB-wMA
Andrew

I used to like the music posts here. I also used to like I Love Lucy reruns, too. Now it's more about the personalities. Every now and then they need a goose.

David Raleigh Arnold

2016-06-15 16:55:04 UTC

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:48:48 -0700 (PDT)

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
There was _no such thing_ as piano music before
Debussy.

Obviously.
Andrew

Oh wait, I just did some research and found out there was

some guy named Beethoven

Beethoven beat the piano into submission. Debussy was able to take
whatever the instrument gave him and exploit it fully. It's not
the same. Regards, Rale

Andrew Schulman

2016-06-15 17:03:04 UTC

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:48:48 -0700 (PDT)