Discussion:
Prelude J.S. Bach (BWV 999)
(too old to reply)
The Poluted Lute
2006-06-22 13:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know if the original manuscript is posted somewhere on-line?

Luto Von Bong
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Che'
2006-06-22 14:45:23 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know if the original manuscript is posted somewhere on-line?<
Luto Von Bong
Here: http://tinyurl.com/ja956

Note the rest!

Che'
Jackson
2006-06-22 19:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che'
Note the rest!
It sound better without the rest - as Bream played it.
Tommy Grand
2006-06-22 19:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson
Post by Che'
Note the rest!
It sound better without the rest - as Bream played it.
Are you saying Bream's better than the rest?
Che'
2006-06-22 20:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by Jackson
Post by Che'
Note the rest!
It sound better without the rest - as Bream played it.
Are you saying Bream's better than the rest?
Che'
2006-06-22 21:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson
Post by Che'
Note the rest!
It sound better without the rest - as Bream played it.
Are you saying Bream's better than the rest?<
I am not a Bach expert. Che', is guilty of corrupting the musical minds of
the less experienced and cobbled together from those pesky little things
called observable rest. To my ears, not to observe Bach's rest can distract
the ear from the musical line. To my mind, this is a very subtle guitar
adaptation that requires technical fluidity and a solid command of it's
rather simple, call and responce, structure. Clarity and forward motion is
what I want to hear in this work. Otoh, In Bach's "Prelude in C Major"
(WTC) I build resonance and instrumental sonority. It seems that Bach did
not attempt an elaborate a contrapuntual realization in this lute prelude.
It appears that Bach's lower voice is supporting an incomplete and faster
( motif) (line) above it. In the lower voice, rests seem to indicate a
degree of articulated silence that contibutes to the projection of the
larger musical structure. I focus on the "Call" of the first 8 notes and
the "Responce" ( the last 4- 16ths. in each measure, like an old field song
It would be interesting to hear what some of our real Bach might explain.
Btw, I'm sure Bream knew this. I'm not sure Bream didn't observe Bach's
rest, are you?

It might appear, Mr. Attorney, that you prejudged in advance of due
investigation.

If it please the court, and Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I trust my
perceptions.

This concludes my summation to the jury.

Che' de 'Ombre Esq. The Firstus

Aside: Che' was wearing a black pinstriped suite, white shirt, tie, and
silk-knot cuffs with black alligator cowboy books..in cout today. There was
evidence of wet spots in a few of the ladies seats, as the Che' Mister
articulated those thoughts.

Here comes da' Judge:................................... Mr. Jackson, you
may now approach the jury.

Hours later the Paparazzi reports: It was in that moment , The Bible
Bully's, misfortune was born.

It was proven Mr. Jackson was guilty of running stop signs, on the low road.

He was fined one testical.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:
Che'
2006-06-22 22:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che'
Post by Jackson
Post by Che'
Note the rest!
It sound better without the rest - as Bream played it.
Are you saying Bream's better than the rest?<
I am not a Bach expert. Che', is guilty of corrupting the musical minds
of the less experienced and cobbled together from those pesky little
things called observable rest. To my ears, not to observe Bach's rest can
distract the ear from the musical line. To my mind, this is a very subtle
guitar adaptation that requires technical fluidity and a solid command of
it's rather simple, call and responce, structure. Clarity and forward
motion is what I want to hear in this work. Otoh, In Bach's "Prelude in
C Major" (WTC) I build resonance and instrumental sonority. It seems that
Bach did not attempt an elaborate a contrapuntual realization in this lute
prelude. It appears that Bach's lower voice is supporting an incomplete
and faster ( motif) (line) above it. In the lower voice, rests seem to
indicate a degree of articulated silence that contibutes to the projection
of the larger musical structure. I focus on the "Call" of the first 8
notes and the "Responce" ( the last 4- 16ths. in each measure, like an old
field song It would be interesting to hear what some of our real Bach
might explain. Btw, I'm sure Bream knew this. I'm not sure Bream didn't
observe Bach's rest, are you?
It might appear, Mr. Attorney, that you prejudged in advance of due
investigation.
If it please the court, and Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I trust my
perceptions.
This concludes my summation to the jury.
Che' de 'Ombre Esq. The Firstus
Aside: Che' was wearing a black pinstriped suite, white shirt, tie, and
silk-knot cuffs with black alligator cowboy books..in cout today. There
was evidence of wet spots in a few of the ladies seats, as the Che' Mister
articulated those thoughts.
Here comes da' Judge:................................... Mr. Jackson, you
may now approach the jury.
Hours later the Paparazzi reports: It was in that moment , The Bible
Bully's, misfortune was born.
It was proven Mr. Jackson was guilty of running stop signs, on the low road.
He was fined one testical.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jackson
2006-06-22 22:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che'
It might appear, Mr. Attorney, that you prejudged in advance of due
investigation.
Ha! My investigation was in listening to various versions, and the ones
that don't include the rest, including Bream's, sound better.
Che'
2006-06-23 02:24:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson
Post by Che'
It might appear, Mr. Attorney, that you prejudged in advance of due
investigation.
Ha! My investigation was in listening to various versions, and the ones
that don't include the rest, including Bream's, sound better.
Che'
2006-06-23 02:31:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson
Post by Che'
It might appear, Mr. Attorney, that you prejudged in advance of due
investigation.
Ha! My investigation was in listening to various versions, and the ones
that don't include the rest, including Bream's, sound better.<
Ha! Ha!, your ears are plush, funny -fuzzy white rabbit ears on your Kmart
house-slippers! My ears are cosmic parabolic satellites. I can hear a
mouse fart at fifty feet with the dishwashing going!

Che'
John Nguyen
2006-06-23 21:10:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson
Post by Che'
Note the rest!
It sound better without the rest - as Bream played it.
Not sure if I listen to the same Bream playing, but on the Bream's
Baroque Guitar CD, the notes only rang through the first beat and
quiet, maybe muted, in the second beat as written. Bream is a trained
pianist, and this piece will sound muddy and awful without the rests on
the piano. I'll be very surprised that he did not observe the rests on
the guitar.
Cheers,

John
Andrew Schulman
2006-06-22 23:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Che'
Note the rest!
This has come up as a thread here a bunch of times. In another piece,
BWV 998, I argued that the bass notes in the prelude should ring past
the rests.

In BWV 999 I am of the opinion that the rests in the bass should be
observed, but with a subtlety, the sound should extend just very
slightly past the rest or it sounds clipped.

In all these matters, after I've formed my own opinion, I always put
the specific case to the Abaca Airport/Green Room test. While waiting
for a plane or backstage with my players, I accost each one
individually and do the Sound Test Thing. The votes on BWV 998 was
4-0, let the bass ring, and it was 4-0 to observe the rest with BWV
999.

That, and 2 bucks, will get you on the subway.

Andrew
Sarn Dyer
2006-06-22 23:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
This has come up as a thread here a bunch of times. In another piece,
BWV 998, I argued that the bass notes in the prelude should ring past
the rests.
In BWV 999 I am of the opinion that the rests in the bass should be
observed, but with a subtlety, the sound should extend just very
slightly past the rest or it sounds clipped.
In all these matters, after I've formed my own opinion, I always put
the specific case to the Abaca Airport/Green Room test. While waiting
for a plane or backstage with my players, I accost each one
individually and do the Sound Test Thing. The votes on BWV 998 was
4-0, let the bass ring, and it was 4-0 to observe the rest with BWV
999.
In this 'test', did observing the rests change the way that you played
the piece, hmmm?

SD
Andrew Schulman
2006-06-23 00:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
In this 'test', did observing the rests change the way that you played
the piece, hmmm?
Yes.

A.
Sarn Dyer
2006-06-23 00:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
In this 'test', did observing the rests change the way that you played
the piece, hmmm?
Yes.
How?
Andrew Schulman
2006-06-23 01:13:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
In this 'test', did observing the rests change the way that you played
the piece, hmmm?
Yes.
How?
998, basses ring, pedal tones, bass is a cushion, treble line makes
things move, overall, more flowing.

999, rests observed, plays a little faster, more propulsive. Key
aspect: syncopation of the high note in each measure followed by the
bass answering. Che said this as well.

A.
Sarn Dyer
2006-06-23 02:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
998, basses ring, pedal tones, bass is a cushion, treble line makes
things move, overall, more flowing.
Exactly, but onversely, if the rests are observed, expression is more
confined to the beat and the dialogue of the broken harmony emerges more
clearly.

If I'm sceptical about the Schulman Test, it's because a good player
should be able to convince the listener that *either* way is the best.
Each offers unique opportunities in the presentation of the music and it
should be impossible to say which is 'best' although the player might
have an opinion about what brings out the best in baroque music. But, of
course, that opinion won't, in itself, be enough to make a great
performance.

I used to ignore the rests in Bach's 'lute' music until I studied JSB's
keyboard music prior to arranging some of his solo string works. After
that, I started to hear Bach in a rather different way. When I finally
discovered how to play the music with the rests in a way that satisfied
me, I found, to my surprise, that I preferred it that way because, for
me, it brought out the structure and its richness. The snag was that I
had to learn to play without using slurs, but that turned out to be one
of the best things that I learnt from playing Bach.

But, on the other hand, I know that a fine musician can, in the moment,
convince me of just about anything and if I thought otherwise, I might
miss some great performances.

-S

PS I still sometimes forget to observe the rests and find myself
drifting off into a quasi-romantic interpretation. Usually no one
notices - except my students...
Andrew Schulman
2006-06-23 03:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
Exactly, but onversely, if the rests are observed, expression is more
confined to the beat and the dialogue of the broken harmony emerges more
clearly.
I actually looked up "onversely" just to make sure!

Look, this argument has been discussed here enough for me to just say
that the decision should be based on what you think sounds best. And
yes, I do seek out the opinions of people I respect and trust and when
a violinist, mandolinist, violist, and bassist that I know and highly
respect tell me it sounds better with the basses ringing in 998, and
when these people tell me they've worked with great Baroque conductors
that in certain situations, and 998 is a certain situation, let bass
notes ring in the 'cello and bass sections, and the reasons they give
for this are discussed, from what I've been told, in treatises such as
Mattheson's 'Der Volkommene Capellmeister' (how's that for name
dropping, no I haven't read Mattheson), AND, I think it sounds better
that way too, than of course that's how I play it!

And then there are examples like 999, where I observe the rests. I
examine each piece and go for what I think is the best choice in each
certain situation, and the history of performance teaches us that yes,
there are choices that can be made in these situations. And no, I am
not a literal constructionist.
Post by Sarn Dyer
If I'm sceptical about the Schulman Test, it's because a good player
should be able to convince the listener that *either* way is the best.
Now that's healthy scepticism! Right, a good player will make things
work. Up to a point, Lord Copper!
Post by Sarn Dyer
The snag was that I had to learn to play without using slurs, but that turned out to be one
of the best things that I learnt from playing Bach.
Another marvelous can of worms, lets leave it for another thread, it's
late, I'm tired!
Post by Sarn Dyer
PS I still sometimes forget to observe the rests and find myself
drifting off into a quasi-romantic interpretation. Usually no one
notices - except my students...
JSB fathered over 20 children, he wasn't a romantic? At least
quasi-romantic?

A.
Sarn Dyer
2006-06-23 18:50:00 UTC
Permalink

ktaylor
2006-06-23 19:26:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
That was terrific. I think that is the first Chinese male I have seen
on youtube play so well. Are all these kids coming out of Beiping
Conservatory?

Kevin Taylor
Alain Reiher
2006-06-24 18:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
His shirt is tied up to the last button ... which make me think that a
budding rose stem is in the process of developing. Inoffensive young sprout
on his side, a bliss. Let's see fifty years from now!
But seriously, great playing and ... mastery! No one notice that his rh is
located between the rosace and the bridge at all time? That only is a good
enough factor to discard him as a Breaminologue. I like the way he uses his
thumb near the following strg in order to keep the free stroke strong and
clear. His greatest asset I would say is his rhythmical accuracy and
intention towards the flow of tempo.
Bravo to Chenzhy 040.
Thumb up!

Alain
Steven Bornfeld
2006-06-24 20:52:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Reiher
Post by Sarn Dyer
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
His shirt is tied up to the last button ... which make me think that a
budding rose stem is in the process of developing. Inoffensive young sprout
on his side, a bliss. Let's see fifty years from now!
But seriously, great playing and ... mastery! No one notice that his rh is
located between the rosace and the bridge at all time?
It looks like a full-sized guitar to me. How would using a full-sized
guitar affect arm/finger position? Might this be responsible for the
neckward position of the right hand?

Steve


That only is a good
Post by Alain Reiher
enough factor to discard him as a Breaminologue. I like the way he uses his
thumb near the following strg in order to keep the free stroke strong and
clear. His greatest asset I would say is his rhythmical accuracy and
intention towards the flow of tempo.
Bravo to Chenzhy 040.
Thumb up!
Alain
Outlander
2006-06-23 19:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
Thanks for the video. I enjoyed his performance.

Noman
Kent Murdick
2006-06-23 20:04:56 UTC
Permalink
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
That was great, technique and music too. A real prodigy. I notive
that all the Chinese players look like they take from the same
instructor. They all have the over flexed right hand fingers and a
slight tilt to the right. That can't be accidental.
John Nguyen
2006-06-23 21:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
That was great, technique and music too. A real prodigy. I notive
that all the Chinese players look like they take from the same
instructor. They all have the over flexed right hand fingers and a
slight tilt to the right. That can't be accidental.
They must have learned from the same book written by the famous A Shi
Er.
Cheers,

John
Kent Murdick
2006-06-23 22:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Nguyen
They must have learned from the same book written by the famous A Shi
Er. >>>

I'll aks my Chinese friends to look for it back home. The technique
looks like Bream/Shearer from the 70's, but I'd like to see what he
says. Any of you old time Shearer students out ther remember playing
like that?
John Nguyen
2006-06-23 22:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Post by John Nguyen
They must have learned from the same book written by the famous A Shi
Er. >>>
I'll aks my Chinese friends to look for it back home. The technique
looks like Bream/Shearer from the 70's, but I'd like to see what he
says. Any of you old time Shearer students out ther remember playing
like that?
Hehe, I'm just pulling your leg. A Shi Er is a Chinese pronounced A
Shearer.
Cheers,

John
Che'
2006-06-23 23:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
Post by John Nguyen
They must have learned from the same book written by the famous A Shi
Er. >>>
I'll aks my Chinese friends to look for it back home. The technique
looks like Bream/Shearer from the 70's, but I'd like to see what he
says. Any of you old time Shearer students out ther remember playing
like that?<
Yes, but I didn't pay much attention to them. :-)

Che'
Larry Deack
2006-06-24 00:34:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
I'll aks my Chinese friends to look for it back home. The technique
looks like Bream/Shearer from the 70's, but I'd like to see what he
says.
Kent, I think it's almost exactly how Williams' fingers this piece
and almost exactly how I play it. It looks to me like somebody not only
studied his fingerings but also paid attention to his technical approach
just like I did.
wollybird
2006-06-24 00:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Deack
Kent, I think it's almost exactly how Williams' fingers this piece
and almost exactly how I play it. It looks to me like somebody not only
studied his fingerings but also paid attention to his technical approach
just like I did.
Wow, Larry, you're an amazing guitarist! I hope you up more videos.
Kent Murdick
2006-06-24 12:21:16 UTC
Permalink
I don't know, he looks more like Bream to although JW does over flex a
bit perhaps. The over flexed position is used by all(?) the Chinese
players and a lot of Europeans. I too teach this when I teach guitar
classes for three reasons. 1) it works pretty well and you get a good
tone fast 2) it's easy to teach, no subtlety 3) and if the student
wants to move to a more mid range position it's not hard to do, i.e.
not long remediation.
Post by Larry Deack
Kent, I think it's almost exactly how Williams' fingers this piece
and almost exactly how I play it. It looks to me like somebody not only
studied his fingerings but also paid attention to his technical approach
just like I did.
Tommy Grand
2006-06-24 00:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
I'll aks my Chinese friends to look for it back home. The technique
looks like Bream/Shearer from the 70's, but I'd like to see what he
says. Any of you old time Shearer students out ther remember playing
like that?
Oh come on, that kid has serious technical problems. If I were his
teacher I'd give him an F...
thomas
2006-06-25 20:47:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Oh come on, that kid has serious technical problems. If I were his
teacher I'd give him an F...
The boy needs to study David Arnold's tech and watch Kent's videos.
John Philip Dimick
2006-06-25 04:34:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kent Murdick
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
That was great, technique and music too. A real prodigy. I notive
that all the Chinese players look like they take from the same
instructor. They all have the over flexed right hand fingers and a
slight tilt to the right. That can't be accidental.
The teacher's name is Chen, I think. His students include Wang
Yameng, Yang Xuefei, and Chen Shanshan, according to this:

http://www.guitarchina.com/news/e/e02/c_20010128/old_225852.htm
John Philip Dimick
2006-06-24 00:06:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarn Dyer
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
Humbling.
Tommy Grand
2006-06-24 00:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Philip Dimick
Post by Sarn Dyer
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
Humbling.
I dunno. I get the same feeling watching these kids as I do when
watching those national spelling bee championships. Young kids, all
wide-eyed who don't seem to understand what they're doing or why. Just
makes you hope you're not on campus when it's their turn to sweep out
the bell tower...
John Philip Dimick
2006-06-24 00:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by John Philip Dimick
Post by Sarn Dyer
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
Humbling.
I dunno. I get the same feeling watching these kids as I do when
watching those national spelling bee championships. Young kids, all
wide-eyed who don't seem to understand what they're doing or why.
Yep. That's their job.
John Philip Dimick
2006-06-24 01:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tommy Grand
Post by John Philip Dimick
Post by Sarn Dyer
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
Humbling.
I dunno. I get the same feeling watching these kids as I do when
watching those national spelling bee championships. Young kids, all
wide-eyed who don't seem to understand what they're doing or why.
Then again, I'm sure he's got some kind of internal story for the piece
that makes sense to him.

I read something about Midori and a Brahms violin concerto. Might've
been in Reader's Digest. It goes like this:

All the big shots turned out to hear little Midori play the concerto.
She brought down the house. After the show, a revered Maestro came
backstage to priase her and ask her about her concept for the piece.
What was she thinking? In her mind, what was the meaning of this
classic?

She enlightened the Maaestro: "Well, it's about a little dog who's lost
in the rain and he can't find his way home!"
Jackson
2006-06-24 03:55:38 UTC
Permalink
It looks and sounds like the boy is playing a Ramirez. True or false?
Nick Navarro
2006-06-24 05:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson
It looks and sounds like the boy is playing a Ramirez. True or false?
Obviously you're not an intuitionist.
Che'
2006-06-24 05:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jackson
It looks and sounds like the boy is playing a Ramirez. True or false?
Obviously you're not an intuitionist.<
He reminds me of a Dolla' Sto Ho.
Che'
2006-06-23 00:00:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Schulman
Post by Che'
Note the rest!
This has come up as a thread here a bunch of times. In another piece,
BWV 998, I argued that the bass notes in the prelude should ring past
the rests.
In BWV 999 I am of the opinion that the rests in the bass should be
observed, but with a subtlety, the sound should extend just very
slightly past the rest or it sounds clipped.<
Yes, not an exact time in space everytime but as the "voices speak to us" in
an improvised manner. It would be interesting what Stanley and Sarn had to
say.
Post by Andrew Schulman
In all these matters, after I've formed my own opinion, I always put
the specific case to the Abaca Airport/Green Room test. While waiting
for a plane or backstage with my players, I accost each one
individually and do the Sound Test Thing. The votes on BWV 998 was
4-0, let the bass ring, and it was 4-0 to observe the rest with BWV
999.
That, and 2 bucks, will get you on the subway.<
When I was in the City, I rode a bike. I was always looking for a bus to
hang a ride with. I always wore gloves and developed a good left arm. :-) I
guess they've cleaned all that wildness up now.

Che'
Post by Andrew Schulman
Andrew
Sarn Dyer
2006-06-23 19:28:56 UTC
Permalink
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
Lare
2006-06-24 04:46:03 UTC
Permalink
(I'm quitting right now. Goodbye)




Seriously, congratulations to him and his teacher. I've seen the future and
it is he.

Larry McDonald
Post by Sarn Dyer
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
Che'
2006-06-24 05:11:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lare
(I'm quitting right now. Goodbye)
Seriously, congratulations to him and his teacher. I've seen the future
and it is he.
Larry McDonald
Post by Sarn Dyer
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
Che'
2006-06-24 05:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lare
(I'm quitting right now. Goodbye)
Seriously, congratulations to him and his teacher. I've seen the future
and it is he.
Larry McDonald<
There was a kid from Columbia back in 1978 like that. He played at the
Kennedy Center broadcast at 11. When he was 14 he just walked away from it.
Just burned out. He keeps those left hand knuckles lined up any time he is
not abducting his elbow. He opened that better than most pros and set his
own pace.

Che'
Post by Lare
Post by Sarn Dyer
http://youtu.be/nUAxEErg9Dk
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